S05.E08: What's Past is Prologue

[mac123x]

3 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Because Barry let him go free at the end of last year’s cross-over. Of course he could be a remnant.🤷‍♀️

That seems like a pretty thin rationale.  We've seen at least 1/2 dozen different characters played by this actor -- it could just as easily be another Harrison Welles from a different Earth.

[phoenics]

37 minutes ago, mac123x said:

That seems like a pretty thin rationale.  We've seen at least 1/2 dozen different characters played by this actor -- it could just as easily be another Harrison Welles from a different Earth.

Given that Nora was able to do the RF's hand vibration thingee, it's highly unlikely that this was just another Wells (who has no real connection to any speedsters in any real way and wouldn't be able to teach Nora how to do it).  It's much more likely that it's a time remnant version of S1 EoWells/RF.

[Rose Red]

Ok but why was Barry/Grant so hot in this episode. Was it the jacket? Idk man but he was a total snack 

[legaleagle53]

16 hours ago, mac123x said:

Maybe I'm being unobservant, but how do we know that the dude in 2049 prison that Nora visits is Eobard Thawne?  Was he wearing the costume, or something?

 

I also wondered what exactly Gideon was implying when she said she knew Nora, and that she was "the 5th member recruited for the reconstituted Legion --" Barry cut her off.  Legion of DOOM, perhaps?

Legion of Super-Heroes in the 31st Century. 

Spoiler

That's who XS is in the comics, and it's also the time period she's really from.  She's still related to Barry and Iris, but more distantly.

Edited December 8, 2018 by legaleagle53

[BkWurm1]

On 12/5/2018 at 7:46 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I've been wanting this since we saw that original Thawne's face was played by Matt Letscher, who played Cavanagh's son in Eli Stone.

No. Not Barry this time. As we've been told, Nora has been gallivanting back and forth, so I'm putting this all on her. She erased other self and

  Reveal hidden contents

her twin, Don

. Though she didn't look confused when Season One Thawne called her Dawn.

No, Nora's travel shenanigans. This one's NOT on Barry.

I was just going to mention that. For all her saying she wanted to learn about her father, would go to the Flash Museum, it didn't occur to her to go read up stories about him? Do they not have libraries in her future? So, so DUMB.

No I think we are both wrong and as others pointed out this time the time shenanigans are all on the Reverse Flash killing Nora, Barry's mom.  I mean, Thane altered his whole life and got him to become the Flash like 10 years early.  Of course the kids were different than what Thane had known about.   I should have caught that.  

On 12/5/2018 at 5:11 PM, catrice2 said:

I still don't like Nora.....Barry has not yet transitioned into "smart Barry" who could create Gideon.  I realized how much I enjoy Joe since he's been gone.  This show was boring....and I am tired of Tom Kavenaugh in any guise.  

I think it is ridiculous after all they went through that more questions were not asked and investigated when Nora arrived.  This season is just meh. 

Unless Barry borrows that smart cap and juices his brain, there's not enough time before Barry goes missing for Barry to become smart enough to make Gideon so I'm going with Barry creating Gideon was never true and either just an inside joke or something done to trick Gideon into always responding to him.  

 

 

On 12/5/2018 at 10:46 PM, VCRTracking said:

It also sounded like Morena to me too. The Gideon on the Waverider was created by the Time Masters in the future. I  find it funny that on the rare occasions WaveriderGideon is shown in human form like the episode they went into Rip Hunter's mind they get the actress who does her voice she looks like Baccarin!

 

I figure there's a setting on Gideon's programing like on Siri's and Rip just switched to British accent Gideon and she evolved from there.  :D  I mean in truth they probably just couldn't make the scheduling work for MB to do all the voice overs for LoT and had to get someone else but I appreciate them bringing back MB on the Flash for consistency.  Lord knows we get little enough of that. 

Edited December 8, 2018 by BkWurm1

[KirkB]

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Unless Barry borrows that smart cap and juices his brain, there's not enough time before Barry goes missing for Barry to become smart enough to make Gideon so I'm going with Barry creating Gideon was never true and either just an inside joke or something done to trick Gideon into always responding to him.  

In the original timeline Thawne and that Gideon came from, Barry didn't become the Flash until much later. So he did have a little more time to take some Computer Programming for Dummies classes and perhaps get help from Cisco and Felicity to create Gideon. Time travel is funny that way. I'd be more curious to know why Thawne would use a version of Gideon that responded to Barry at all, since surely HE was smart enough to reprogram her so his arch-enemy would not be able to use her against him?

[mxc90]

Barry/Nora travels back to events in S2: E18, are we to assume the Time Wraith finally captured Zoom in that episode and the events after never happened (Shouldn't Henry Allen be alive)? Or was that a Zoom remnant caught and another still kills Henry?

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, KirkB said:

In the original timeline Thawne and that Gideon came from, Barry didn't become the Flash until much later. So he did have a little more time to take some Computer Programming for Dummies classes and perhaps get help from Cisco and Felicity to create Gideon. Time travel is funny that way. I'd be more curious to know why Thawne would use a version of Gideon that responded to Barry at all, since surely HE was smart enough to reprogram her so his arch-enemy would not be able to use her against him?

I'll add erased timeline to my list of theories.  

And yeah, there are serious plot holes in Thane using Gideon unless he was just that arrogant in believing Barry would never stumble on to her.  

20 minutes ago, mxc90 said:

Barry/Nora travels back to events in S2: E18, are we to assume the Time Wraith finally captured Zoom in that episode and the events after never happened (Shouldn't Henry Allen be alive)? Or was that a Zoom remnant caught and another still kills Henry?

Zoom already had so many time remnants at that point that sure, for all we know the one that came back and chased Barry and Nora was just one of his minions, not the one that goes on to cause any of the problems that come.  So the time wraiths grabbing that Zoom might have been as meaningless as Zoom killing his past self to fake Jay's death. 

Actually, this stuff is from the season Flash broke me. Time Remnants couldn't possibly work the way the show wants them to and still allow for Eddie's death to actually really matter, but oh well.  So the real answer is it's best not to think about it too much.  

But in breaking my own advice, ironic to how worried they were about messing up the time line, Barry and Nora going back in time and interfering and getting chased probably saved season two team flash at their most vulnerable because otherwise Zoom would have finished them off like he meant to do.  And thus it had always happened like this so Barry and Nora going back is the original timeline anyway.

Edited December 8, 2018 by BkWurm1

[mxc90]

28 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Zoom already had so many time remnants at that point that sure, for all we know the one that came back and chased Barry and Nora was just one of his minions, not the one that goes on to cause any of the problems that come.  So the time wraiths grabbing that Zoom might have been as meaningless as Zoom killing his past self to fake Jay's death. 

Actually, this stuff is from the season Flash broke me. Time Remnants couldn't possibly work the way the show wants them to and still allow for Eddie's death to actually really matter, but oh well.  So the real answer is it's best not to think about it too much.  

But in breaking my own advice, ironic to how worried they were about messing up the time line, Barry and Nora going back in time and interfering and getting chased probably saved season two team flash at their most vulnerable because otherwise Zoom would have finished them off like he meant to do.  And thus it had always happened like this so Barry and Nora going back is the original timeline anyway.

This episode made me re-watch a few episodes from S2 today (totally forgot what happened then). I will take your advice and not put too much thought into it anymore.

In S2, we didn't get a scene with the second Zoom arriving. Maybe in this episode he wasn't going to kill them and showed up at STAR labs to use the restroom or grab a snack or Caitlynn requested for one of them to go back to get her overnight bag/toothbrush and he just happened to run in to Barry and Nora (note to myself: don't think too much).

[BeautifulFlower]

I took the "As least you still have one" line as a dig towards Barry's mom being dead. Eobard said the line after Nora told him what her name was. Once he heard that, he replied with that line. Barry only has ONE Nora in his life now, his daughter.

Edited December 9, 2018 by BeautifulFlower
fixed word

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I took the "As least you still have one" line as a dig towards Barry's mom being dead. Eobard said the line after Nora told him what her name was. Once he heard that, he replied with that line. Barry only has ONE Nora in his life now, his daughter.

I think it was both.  To Barry who never knew about the twins from the comics that Thane referenced with Dawn, it's only a dig about his mom, but it's an easter egg to fans and Eobard just being a dick and making a inside joke for himself.  

[phoenics]

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think it was both.  To Barry who never knew about the twins from the comics that Thane referenced with Dawn, it's only a dig about his mom, but it's an easter egg to fans and Eobard just being a dick and making a inside joke for himself.  

Yes - especially since he literally brought up Dawn before Barry or Nora gave her actual name - he was fully expecting Nora to be Dawn Allen (who is one of a twinset, Don and Dawn Allen).  His little "well, at least you've still got one" was totally a double entendre - he meant at least one Nora AND at least one child (out of two).  Also remember he said "Time travel is a tricky thing..." right before his little snarky "at least you've got one" comment.

He was being a dick - but also kinda merciful in that he didn't just blurt out to Barry that he might still have one Nora (as in his mom and child), he'd lost his original twins and gotten them replaced with one child, Nora.  Wow.  I wonder how much restraint it took for EoWells to hold that back.

That's actually something I appreciate about this show - it has little references to the comics and canon, but they framed EoWells killing Barry's mom as something that really reset Barry's life away from what it originally was.  He still gets the jist of his life as it happened originally (he's the Flash, he's with Iris, he has a kid with Iris, he's a founding member of the Justice League, etc) but not quite the same as originally. 

What a mindscrew.

Question though:  In S1, Gideon is about to tell Barry that he's a founding member of the Justice League... would this Barry ever do that?  Because he's never - and I mean NEVER - alone... would this Barry team up with Wonder Woman, Batman and Superman to form the Justice League and leave Arrow, Supergirl, etc out?  Sometimes that's my only gripe with Arrowverse - it elevates 2nd tier heroes to be on the same level as The Flash, when they aren't and doesn't leave a path for Barry to level up out of that ever.  So I can't ever see him being a founding member of the Justice League - unless it was a set larger than the original 7.  That... irritates me, lol.

[BkWurm1]

In the Arrowverse Arrow and Supergirl are first tier superheroes so if they founded a Justice League on the shows, I wound expect it to be with them and all the rest of our multi show universe and Supes and Bats to sit this one out.  They can have the other Earths to have their time in the spotlight 

[SimoneS]

7 hours ago, phoenics said:

Question though:  In S1, Gideon is about to tell Barry that he's a founding member of the Justice League... would this Barry ever do that?  Because he's never - and I mean NEVER - alone... would this Barry team up with Wonder Woman, Batman and Superman to form the Justice League and leave Arrow, Supergirl, etc out?  Sometimes that's my only gripe with Arrowverse - it elevates 2nd tier heroes to be on the same level as The Flash, when they aren't and doesn't leave a path for Barry to level up out of that ever.  So I can't ever see him being a founding member of the Justice League - unless it was a set larger than the original 7.  That... irritates me, lol.

Very true. I think that is one of the main reasons that DCU has struggled to have successful superhero movies. As much as I have enjoyed the tv show, I don't think that The Flash should have never been made as a superhero tv show unlike second tier superheroes the CW Arrowverse. He should have always been a superhero on the big screen with his own movies like Wonder Woman and Batman which would have laid the groundwork for the Justice League movie. Now DC has a tv version of The Flash and a movie one which compromises their movie franchise.

[BkWurm1]

49 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Very true. I think that is one of the main reasons that DCU has struggled to have successful superhero movies. As much as I have enjoyed the tv show, I don't think that The Flash should have never been made as a superhero tv show unlike second tier superheroes the CW Arrowverse. He should have always been a superhero on the big screen with his own movies like Wonder Woman and Batman which would have laid the groundwork for the Justice League movie. Now DC has a tv version of The Flash and a movie one which compromises their movie franchise.

I don't think Barry Allen on TV can be blamed for the problems the DCU has 

[SimoneS]

Just now, BkWurm1 said:

I don't think Barry Allen on TV can be blamed for the problems the DCU has 

I did not blame Barry Allen on TV. I blamed and am DCU's decision to allow make a tv show with The Flash, instead of a big screen movie.

[phoenics]

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

In the Arrowverse Arrow and Supergirl are first tier superheroes so if they founded a Justice League on the shows, I wound expect it to be with them and all the rest of our multi show universe and Supes and Bats to sit this one out.  They can have the other Earths to have their time in the spotlight 

No.  Then it wouldn't be the Justice League.  That term means something.  You can't form it without Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman.  It simply wouldn't be The Justice League.  I would riot on these writers if they tried that - and honestly I don't think DC would allow it.  And they shouldn't.

[BkWurm1]

54 minutes ago, phoenics said:

No.  Then it wouldn't be the Justice League.  That term means something.  You can't form it without Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman.  It simply wouldn't be The Justice League.  I would riot on these writers if they tried that - and honestly I don't think DC would allow it.  And they shouldn't.

They let the Green Arrow found the Justice League on Smallville with their Flash (thought they called him Impulse) Aquaman and Cyborg. Superman came around later kicking and screaming and there was no Batman.  GA is Batman in the Arrowverse and Supergirl is the Superman in the Arrowverse as long as Superman is only a guest star.   

Edited December 10, 2018 by BkWurm1

[Trini]

A few re-watch thoughts:

Overall, a solid episode. There were some really nice moments between between characters - Barry/Iris, Barry/Nora, Thawne/Barry - along with some really tense moments. I liked seeing the past scenes from a new perspective. I thought they could have done more with the concept, though. Maybe visit a couple more past incidents?

I really wish they had made a better effort to include more past characters. But more importantly, current characters - it's inexcusable that there was no Joe in this. I get re-introducing Reverse Flash, but I thought they spent way too much time with the villains.

This was a good preview/teaser for the back half of the season (which will focus on Nora and Eobard, I guess), but it didn't feel like a 100th episode tribute.

With Cisco's line about making adjustments to the Flash suit, can I hope for a re-design (or at least some serious tweaking) when the show comes back from hiatus? Maybe I shouldn't get my hopes up; but I did notice that they tweaked the cowl - still needs that chin strap, though.

Barry and Nora had good father/daughter scenes - however they missed an opportunity for them to actually have a discussion about all the new things Nora learned about her father. It was really shallow, when they could have had some real, emotional depth; like with "Runaway Dinosaur".

Any interaction with the past is a huge, stupid thing to do, and Barry shouldn't have brought Nora with him or allowed her to talk to Eobard. Dumbest part of the episode for me, but I guess they wanted a Nora/Eobard meeting before the big reveal.

So many questions about Nora - which I guess is the point. She knows he's her father's archenemy, but she's still working with Eobard and is pen pals with him?? Also why would the let him have a computer IN his cell?

Now Cicada: he's powerful for sure, but not so powerful that the team should be repeatedly thwarted by him. (But, you know, Team can't win until the end of the season.)
Cicada said (essentially) that he'd kill himself when he was done killing every metahuman. That got me thinking about how this Cicada arc will eventually end. Every season has had the main villain die one way or another - but I wonder if that will be too sad an ending for Cicada since they've made an effort to humanize him, and he has a dependent he needs to care for. He needs to be defeated, but would they leave Grace an orphan again? Even if they find a way to 'cure' him of his powers, I feel that he'd still continue with his anti-metahuman agenda; so I think death or prison are the two options, unless they find a third option that has something of a happy ending for Grace.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Trini
completed unfinished sentence

[Trini]

Someone asked about the voice for Gideon; I looked but I didn't see a credit for the voice. Although there was a credit for Tony Todd (Zoom). Weird.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

No.  Then it wouldn't be the Justice League.  That term means something.  You can't form it without Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman.  It simply wouldn't be The Justice League.  I would riot on these writers if they tried that - and honestly I don't think DC would allow it.  And they shouldn't.

It is difficult to say what DC would or wouldn't allow. DCU has been a mess for such a long time. It is unbelievable that it has gotten itself into a position of having two Flashes and Supermans at the SAME time on tv and in the movies. I did read that Geoff Johns has been moved out as president of DC Entertainment so maybe they will start streamlining their creative efforts.

Edited December 10, 2018 by SimoneS

[Chicago Redshirt]

20 hours ago, phoenics said:

No.  Then it wouldn't be the Justice League.  That term means something.  You can't form it without Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman.  It simply wouldn't be The Justice League.  I would riot on these writers if they tried that - and honestly I don't think DC would allow it.  And they shouldn't.

There have been various incarnations of the Justice League over the years, and some of them did not feature any of DC's Trinity.

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There have been various incarnations of the Justice League over the years, and some of them did not feature any of DC's Trinity.

Only after the original set was created - the later versions were new iterations, not brand new creations.

[Trini]

I still have problems with this plot, but one thing I kinda liked is how much Barry and Eobard hate each other. In the time vault, they clearly want to kill each other, but they know they can't, (and they know that the other knows that) so they just to settle for pettily pissing each each other off, while barely concealing their hatred. And Eobard will have (has had?) his revenge, but I thought it was funny that Barry managed to screw him over twice in one day!