Elizabeth Webber: Forever The Manipulative Miss Or Adorable Angel?

[Oracle42]

AJ did sleep with Carly while he and Liz were on a break. 

[Bringonthedrama]

2 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

 

I just don't understand how Lucky is seen as a worse PERSON. We all like what we like and ship pairings for a lot of reasons. But for Franco (serial killer, psychopath, sexual assaulter), Ric (sociopath, kidnapper, sexual assaulter), and Jason (killer, void of human emotion, threatened to kill a woman) to be better people than Lucky? I don't know. I just don't agree.

I also don't agree. The only thing that would make a little sense is that the audience has high standards for Lucky, since he first came to Port Charles as a child, and especially (IMO) because he was raised by Laura Webber/Spencer.  With the Lucky recasts (after the first love story of teen Lucky and Liz), also came the worst in Liz. I remember L&L2 were toxic together when GV played Lucky. Lucky would say Liz was everything to him, but his behavior did not reflect that. With Franco, Ric and Jason Morgan, non-Mob people (like Mac or Tracy) mostly saw them as low-lifes - no standards of decent behavior ever existed. After the Alcazar murder trial, Liz confronted Ric in court, saying "Everyone in my life" had warned her that he was bad news. She called him cruel. He said Jason had turned her into a liar. (But actually, it had started with her self-deception about Lucky, Lucky lying to her, and then her lying to him too).  I believe an emotionally healthy Elizabeth Webber (one with decent standards for her own love life) would never have anything to do with Franco or Ric outside of treating them as patients. With Jason, it's not quite that simple because he was her best friend's older brother and because was genuinely kind toward/protective of her after Lucky was presumed dead in the fire. Then Jason used her and was toxic for her after he and Sam got married.  She should have been completely done with him once he married Sam - the reason (IMO) she still wanted him was that the writers are lazy.

[HeatLifer]

16 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I am not a Lucky fan (and I love Ric), but I agree. I mean come on now, there is no way Lucky is a worse human being than the other 3. 

As for whether he's a worse love interest though, I can't really say since I've never been watching when he and Liz were together. But I can't really imagine him being worse than fucking Franco or Jason. And didn't Ric try to kill Liz or something at one point? In that case, I can't imagine he's a better boyfriend than Lucky lol.

AJ's better than all of them though. :)

To be real, in my eyes, most of Liz's love interests for the most part have been trashed. Ric was lying and torturing another woman on the side while with Liz, Jason/Liz never even had a real relationship! where they were officially together and out in the open, Nik was Lucky's BROTHER, and now she's with Jason's enemy and Sam's sexual assaulter bc he's "reformed." This show has crapped on Liz's relationships for years.

[coffee drinker]

4 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

He used Liz over and over and over (and treated her like nothing at various moments on this show, especially when he was with Courtney) and chose Sam over her repeatedly.

I just don't understand how Lucky is seen as a worse PERSON. We all like what we like and ship pairings for a lot of reasons. But for Franco (serial killer, psychopath, sexual assaulter), Ric (sociopath, kidnapper, sexual assaulter), and Jason (killer, void of human emotion, threatened to kill a woman) to be better people than Lucky? I don't know. I just don't agree.

 

Why did fans want Liason in 2002?  Because they remembered how the characters were prior to that last return to the show by SBu.  Jason being an asshole in 2002 when jourtney started was a stark 180 in attitude to the history/teasing that had gone on between Elizabeth and Jason prior to Frons/Guza.  Jason had no qualms taking the SIL to bed in his brother's marital bed.  It wasn't a good look on Jason during that storyline, but jourtney fans ate it up.  The flab 4 was born.  

IMO, jourtney got the Liason story that appeared ready to play out in 2002.  Until Frons said otherwise.  

Edited September 26, 2016 by coffee drinker

[LeftPhalange]

7 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

I just don't understand how Lucky is seen as a worse PERSON. We all like what we like and ship pairings for a lot of reasons. But for Franco (serial killer, psychopath, sexual assaulter), Ric (sociopath, kidnapper, sexual assaulter), and Jason (killer, void of human emotion, threatened to kill a woman) to be better people than Lucky? I don't know. I just don't agree.

The idea that Lucky is somehow unworthy of Liz is something that really confuses me. I can understand not wanting them together (I'm not a fan) but how has he treated her any worse than she's treated him? This is the same Liz who kept DNAJ's real paternity a secret and passed him off as Lucky's, accepted his proposal even though she didn't want to marry him and then started screwing his brother, faked having a breakdown and checked into shadybrook in an attempt to get him back, and lied to and manipulated Jason so she could keep him away from his family and in her bed. This is the woman who Lucky isn't good enough for? She's just as much to blame for the downfall of their relationship as he is and a good bit of her unhappiness over the years is the result of her own actions

Lucky has treated her well for the most part and doesn't sniff around her when he would rather be with someone else. I don't see what he's done to put him in the same league as her other love interests. 

[dr. gailey]

As much as people say Liz was trashed in this recent Jasam reunion I wished that shit would show up on screen.

She and Franco can scream about being the town pariahs all they want. That is clearly not happening on screen. Sam and Jason have not treated Liz one iota how they really should. Instead they have Sam being Mary Sue Sunshine and cordial to Liz. Franco gets to have zingers against his victims and Jason gets called the bully when he dares to say anything to the fool that basically stalked and ruined his life cause he wouldn't give him the time of day the first time he met him.

[LeftPhalange]

6 hours ago, dr. gailey said:

As much as people say Liz was trashed in this recent Jasam reunion I wished that shit would show up on screen.

She and Franco can scream about being the town pariahs all they want. That is clearly not happening on screen. Sam and Jason have not treated Liz one iota how they really should. Instead they have Sam being Mary Sue Sunshine and cordial to Liz. Franco gets to have zingers against his victims and Jason gets called the bully when he dares to say anything to the fool that basically stalked and ruined his life cause he wouldn't give him the time of day the first time he met him.

Jason was HERS until that bitch Sam stole him. Liz has suffered immensely. As for Franco, people still treat him like he's lower than shit even though the tumor is to blame for his serial killer ways. He's all better now and just wants people to give him a chance. He's a good unlicensed art therapist and likes toast, he deserves respect. The people of Port Charles are probably just jealous of his good hair.

[peachmangosteen]

16 hours ago, Oracle42 said:

AJ did sleep with Carly while he and Liz were on a break. 

THEY WERE ON A BREAK!

But really I don't even know if AJ can be considered a Liz love interest since the writers clearly didn't give a shit about that relationship. Sigh. 

[Melgaypet]

2 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

But really I don't even know if AJ can be considered a Liz love interest since the writers clearly didn't give a shit about that relationship. Sigh. 

We can't use that as a rubric, surely, what the writers give a shit about is insane. AJ is a Liz love interest where it counts - in my mind. Where actual soap happens.

[Oracle42]

I think this most recent go round with Jason/Liz reinforced Guza's take on the relationship, from Jason's dream in 2011(?), which was that Liz prefers Jason if he's injured, needs her and can't/won't leave her.

If TIIC were interested in writing a soap about GH characters the fallout from the amnesia shit she pulled with Jason - 1. Would've actually happened and 2. Would've involved an exploration of her tendency to sabotage relationships and abandonment issues. Those things could've been done with a new romantic relationship and sister reveal, if both of those upcoming stories were about anything other than cementing two characters (who haven't been well received) into the canvas through Liz. 

Liz is not my favorite character, but there was a real opportunity for good soap here - family, romance, and character growth that built on history both recent and long-term.

Instead, Franco pouted again about Liz having boundaries and a painful history that informed her choices with him while making her rape about him.

And Jeff Webber, who moved mountains to find Steven Lars and who has not visited PC during any of the time periods that any of his children have lived there - is going to show up for poor little rich girl Rebecca Budig character whose only complaint has been that she had to go to an expensive boarding school and didn't like it. So, instead of giving Hayden a supporting role (and providing her with the opportunity to grow a fan base for this character in this soap) in a story with a character who has a large, committed fanbase, JP has decided to alienate a good portion of Liz fans with a story that is as ill-conceived as it is tedious

Edited September 28, 2016 by Oracle42

[Princess Kelbop]

Liz is a character, but if I'm Liz...

-and I cheat on Lucky, with his brother, don't I feel the need to justify this horrendous behavior by deciding that my love for Nikolas is a love that cannot be denied? So when Nikolas comes back and is all smoldering and into Liz, why wouldn't she go back to him? I liked Liz and A.J., but they weren't serious at the time. (And if I'm Nikolas, when Elizabeth finally comes around and decides she loves him back, why would I stay with Britt of all people? I never believed that after all they had been through, they would let issues of timing get in the way). And these are not the musings of a Liz/Nic shipper because...

-again, if I'm Liz, and back comes Ric, who has always been devoted to me and is good to my kids and looks like Rick Hearst, and I've already decided to forgive him for all kinds of bad deeds, AND THEN RIC IMPROBABLY COMES BACK FROM THE DEAD, why am I going to have the warms for Jake Doe? He was just a big old void. I get why some people don't like Liz, but I do, and I'm willing to fanwank and handwave as necessary, but her choices have not seemed realistic or relatable to me in YEARS. 

Thank you for letting me get that off my chest. :-)

[Melgaypet]

1 hour ago, Princess Kelbop said:

and I cheat on Lucky, with his brother, don't I feel the need to justify this horrendous behavior by deciding that my love for Nikolas is a love that cannot be denied? So when Nikolas comes back and is all smoldering and into Liz, why wouldn't she go back to him?

Because if I'm Liz, I remember that this so-called "love" led to my suicide attempt and subsequent institutionalization? That our affair did not survive the reveal of it? That I believed (correctly) that Nikolas was a controlling douche and a piss-poor parent and that I fervently hoped he was not the father of my child? Perhaps I realize that despite our longstanding friendship, in a relationship, Nikolas and I bring out the worst in each other?

I mean, I understand what you're saying, Princess Kelbop. But the stench of Niz still lingers for me. I don't believe Guza, when he wrote that story, or Carlivarti, when he wrote the AJ/Liz/Nik "triangle," gave the first thought to Liz's POV or to making her actions make any kind of sense.

1 hour ago, Princess Kelbop said:

I get why some people don't like Liz, but I do, and I'm willing to fanwank and handwave as necessary, but her choices have not seemed realistic or relatable to me in YEARS. 

Here we agree 100%

As for Ric...full disclosure, I never liked the guy or cared for Liz/Ric. Though I do think that it made more sense for Liz to want him instead of Jake Doe. In fact, if I remember right, she had chosen him until Nik dropped the truth on her and activated the latent Jason obsession from which this show will never let her move on.

[Darklazr]

Elizabeth was never obsessed with Jason until RC wrote that BS and I don't care how many retcon stories this show tries to shove in my face.  Elizabeth and Lucky were toxic by the time they divorced in 2007.  Elizabeth and Ric should have never started back up in 2014 since she never gave a shit about her ex after they divorced in 2004.  RC chose bits and pieces of Elizabeth's history with Jason and made up the other crap to IMO trashed the character along with Nik so that he and FV could get rid of BH and TC, again.

[Darklazr]

I really enjoyed Elizabeth and AJ, but to have him suddenly screwing Carly and throwing Nik in the mix was stupid as hell.  

Niz is one relationship that should have never seen the light of day.  Yes, Lucky had an affair with Sarah back in 2002, but Elizabeth had never shown any romantic interest in Nik, so I never bought her bedding her ex-brother-in-law.  However, if Niz brought about a permanent end to LnL2, great!

[HeatLifer]

In my eyes, Lucky never stood a chance the second he was recast. He was constantly trashed to make Jason look good. Jason was the hero and that was never to be questioned. Liz's character was also similarly sacrificed when she was reduced to becoming a spoiler for JaSam.

[Melgaypet]

1 hour ago, HeatLifer said:

In my eyes, Lucky never stood a chance the second he was recast. He was constantly trashed to make Jason look good. Jason was the hero and that was never to be questioned. Liz's character was also similarly sacrificed when she was reduced to becoming a spoiler for JaSam.

Word. Lucky was...ruined. I loved him, the JJ version. Like seriously, in my TOP FIVE soap characters.  Jacob Young was a disastrous recast, for all the good work he did on AMC later on, and poor Greg Vaughn never managed to play a character who had two brain cells to rub togethter. And poor Elizabeth -- she WAS obsessed with Jason, as was damn near every female in her age range. Sam. Courtney. Brenda, in her way. Carly, always. Only Robin escaped with her dignity intact, even if she was always too soft on Jason Morgan: Professional Murder in the years after they broke up. (I hate to admit it, because of how much I like HeatLifer, but I was indifferent to Jason&Robin. I didn't hate them - I hadn't yet learned to hate Jason - but they bored me. I didn't so much root for them as I was rooting against Carly. Given how the writing would go downhill in the following years, I maybe should've counted my blessings.) The fucking SHOW has been obsessed with Jason, why would poor Liz be exempt?

Sorry, I got distracted. Liz, as a character, has been disrespected and taken advantage of for YEARS. I don't think any writing regime has hated her, really, but just assumed that her fanbase would always be there and it didn't matter what batshit writing they gave her, audience affection would be there and so it didn't matter. Poor Becky Herbst - she's like the Kassie dePaiva of this show. A tentpole actress and character that TPTB completely take for granted. It's infuriating. It's insulting. I mean, Franco. Don't tell me the writers and even Frank don't realize that RoHo as Franco has been a failure. So tether him to poor Liz. And some of her fans are so desperate for Liz airtime and story, they'll drink the sand.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Melgaypet

[Princess Kelbop]

Quote

I don't think any writing regime has hated her, really, but just assumed that her fanbase would always be there and it didn't matter what batshit writing they gave her, audience affection would be there and so it didn't matter.

If the writers assumed that, they were correct. The fanbase has always been there. They pretty actively prevented her from being let go twice now. 

I've watched some Liz/Franco stuff on YouTube, and it's kind of cute if you can pretend that Franco is somebody else. Does the writing for Elizabeth suffer because she doesn't have a "one true pairing" love interest? There's no consensus among her fans about who she should be with. For a long time it was JJ-era Lucky but then he came back and for various reasons the old magic wasn't recaptured. Once upon a time it could have been Jason--too much water under that bridge, there was loads of potential in a reformed Ric, the history was there for Nikolas--but she's just been pinging around like a pinball. I think she needs her version of Robin's Patrick Drake--a new, fresh character with little or no baggage. Not that GH needs yet another character, but c'mon. Becky/Liz have earned it.  

Edited September 27, 2016 by Princess Kelbop

[KerleyQ]

11 hours ago, Melgaypet said:

As for Ric...full disclosure, I never liked the guy or cared for Liz/Ric. Though I do think that it made more sense for Liz to want him instead of Jake Doe. In fact, if I remember right, she had chosen him until Nik dropped the truth on her and activated the latent Jason obsession from which this show will never let her move on.

From what I remember of the whole mess, she was into Jake, Ric came back, and she was torn.  Rick hired Hayden to pretend to be Jake's wife, Liz and Jake were both upset, and Liz then went with Ric.  Then, she found out that Ric hired Hayden, and she was through with him.  It was only after dumping him for the Hayden thing that she found out about Jake being Jason (at which point, she was already going to head Jake's way anyway, so the Jason reveal didn't activate her interest in Jake).  Of course, the show then made it a Jason obsession, because, come on, who in Port Charles doesn't have a Jason obsession?  He's everything that's good and holy in Port Charles.  But her interest in Jake was already there, and she was done with Ric because of his plot before she found out about Jason. 

[peachmangosteen]

7 hours ago, Melgaypet said:

Liz, as a character, has been disrespected and taken advantage of for YEARS. I don't think any writing regime has hated her, really, but just assumed that her fanbase would always be there and it didn't matter what batshit writing they gave her, audience affection would be there and so it didn't matter.

I think this is it, too. And honestly they're right about it so I can barely blame them.

I really think they believe pairing her with RoHo is them doing her a huge solid though. They (or at least FV) clearly have no idea that Franco doesn't work and just think "We're giving Becky a soap superstar for a scene partner she and her fans should be thrilled by this gift!"

Edited September 27, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[KerleyQ]

Just now, peachmangosteen said:

I really think they believe pairing her with RoHo is them doing her a huge solid though. They (or at least FV) clearly have no idea that Franco doesn't work and just think "We're giving Becky a soap superstar for a scene partner she and her fans should be thrilled by this gift!"

I kind of wonder if it's entirely "oh, let's gift Becky with Soap Superstar Roger Howarth."  If you think about it, Franco's crashed with two love interests already - Carly and Nina.  They clearly want this character to happen, because they can't admit that they fucked up royally when they made RoHo Franco instead of, oh, anyone else.   So they look around, and the fan feedback they got over Becky's tense contract talks is still fresh in their minds.  And they realize that she has a very strong, loyal, and vocal fanbase, who has stuck with her through shit storm after shit storm. "Surely, if we pair Franco up with Liz, her fans will carry his character to respectability.  And we'll sell it as our 'gift' to Liz/Becky/her fans - a pairing with a soap superstar." 

[peachmangosteen]

Good point, @KerleyQ. You are probably right. I think it's actually a combo of them thinking BH will help Franco and yet still somehow also believing that it's a gift for her to be able to work with soap superstar RoHo. FV is so dumb lol.

Edited September 27, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[Oracle42]

I think they're well aware that casting RoHo as Franco was a monumental fuckup. They're just unwilling to admit it, which kinda makes me believe FV had a hand in the decision.

I don't think Franco/Nina were a complete failure (MSt and RoHo fans seemed to like them) but neither of them has a place in PC; they both lift right out. When their presence wasn't irrelevant, it was actively offensive. I mean, look at the reaction to their attendance at the Julexis wedding. Neither of them should have been there and nobody interacted with them. Contrast that to Franco's appearance with Liz at Sabrina's funeral...

FV is determined to make RoHo (and probably ME) central characters on this soap, so he's trying to tie Liz to Franco in the hopes that she can tow him into relevancy. He's doing the exact same thing with Hayden. 

Edited September 29, 2016 by Oracle42

[ulkis]

I don't know what magic spell Franco weaves, but Liz seems so isolated now with him. Maybe because he's running around like a headless chicken saying stuff like "only can only speak with Liz through ME!!!" But anyway, I was thinking now would be the time to make Liz and Lulu closer, and Maxie and Sam again, and that way Maxie and Lulu can have some mild conflict in their friendship sometimes (let's just pretend Sam and Liz were allowed to dislike each other), and the writers can use mean old Lulu to object to the star-crossed Franco/Liz romance.

[HeatLifer]

9 hours ago, Melgaypet said:

And poor Elizabeth -- she WAS obsessed with Jason, as was damn near every female in her age range. Sam. Courtney. Brenda, in her way. Carly, always. Only Robin escaped with her dignity intact, even if she was always too soft on Jason Morgan: Professional Murder in the years after they broke up.

Robin never begged for Jason to love her or questioned whether he did at all, even at the very end. She is the only one who genuinely wanted Jason to be happy, even if it meant he would be happy without her. It's how the other women should have been written, but they never were. Why? Because in '00s and beyond, Jason's women essentially had to FIGHT for HIS love (fight him, fight each other), almost demand for it, and couldn't handle it if he didn't.

[UYI]

6 hours ago, Princess Kelbop said:

There's no consensus among her fans about who she should be with. For a long time it was JJ-era Lucky but then he came back and for various reasons the old magic wasn't recaptured.

I would argue it's STILL JJ's Lucky, the show just needs to give them a real chance to shine again. 

Edited September 27, 2016 by UYI

[Oracle42]

I think BH's short scenes with JJ during the Jake return had more chemistry and connection than anything she's had since

[HeatLifer]

8 minutes ago, UYI said:

I would argue it's STILL JJ's Lucky

To her fans? I can't agree. I think the Liason fanbase is waaaaay larger. I'm not kidding, I see more Lucky hate now than appreciation.

[ulkis]

10 minutes ago, UYI said:

I would argue it's STILL JJ's Lucky, the show just needs to give them a real chance to shine again. 

I agree. Maybe among fans who still watch the show are torn, but overall, I'd say it's still Lucky and Liz. I remember being shocked when JJ came back because there were a ton of people I had no clue from them that they had ever watched GH, excited to tune in and see JJ and Lucky and Liz again.

[UYI]

2 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

To her fans? I can't agree. I think the Liason fanbase is waaaaay larger. I'm not kidding, I see more Lucky hate now than appreciation.

More rabid? Yes. Larger? Ehhhh. I'd say it's large, but I feel like LL2 still outweighs them by a significant margin. 

Edited September 27, 2016 by UYI

[HeatLifer]

1 minute ago, UYI said:

More rabid? Yes. Larger? Ehhhh. I'd say it's large, but I feel like LL2 still outweighs by a certain margin. 

I dunno. There's no way to know for sure in terms of numbers. I'm just going from what I see. And I don't see Liz and Lucky love. I see most Liz fans calling him a deadbeat father.

[dubbel zout]

Given that Lucky is an offscreen deadbeat dad, I'm not surprised Jason currently has more fans. Get JJ back, give Lucky and Elizabeth decent writing, and then let's see which couple is preferred. Right now it's hardly a fair comparison, even accounting for fanbase nuttiness.

[Melgaypet]

2 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Given that Lucky is an offscreen deadbeat dad...

I cannot find the words to describe how much this bit of character assassination enrages me. If only there was a FLAMES ON THE SIDE OF MY FACE font. Lucky was always written as devoted to those boys until JJ chose to leave and it truly feels like some childish, petty "punishment" of the character by the writers. So completely unnecessary, Jax is out of town but he doesn't get the deadbeat edit...*inarticulate snarling*

Anyway. Elizabeth is the topic. In the eyes of this Liz fan, I say Liz and JJ's Lucky are IT for each other. Lobsters. No one else comes close. I think Becky and Jonathan play it that way, too.

[dubbel zout]

I think Liz could work with someone else, but the show has no desire to put in the necessary effort. This thing with Franco is a travesty.

[KerleyQ]

1 hour ago, Oracle42 said:

I think BH's short scenes with JJ during the Jake return had more chemistry and connection than anything she's had since

I agree.  They just light up the screen together.  

[Princess Kelbop]

1 hour ago, HeatLifer said:

To her fans? I can't agree. I think the Liason fanbase is waaaaay larger. I'm not kidding, I see more Lucky hate now than appreciation.

Are these Jason/Liz fans from the SBu era or do they like BM? The only way BM seems like Jason is his hanging around Liz having opinions about her life and choices that are none of his business. SBu-era Jason did that, too. 

Quote

In the eyes of this Liz fan, I say Liz and JJ's Lucky are IT for each other. Lobsters. No one else comes close. I think Becky and Jonathan play it that way, too.

Did Liz cheating on THE DEFINITIVE LUCKY tarnish that in many folks' eyes though? How could she do that if her were truly her lobster? 

Quote

This thing with Franco is a travesty.

I could have liked a Becky/RoHo pairing were he not Franco (or if the writers had truly done the long, hard job of redeeming Franco for real--which probably would have meant RoHo/Franco leaving PC for a good while). They have chemistry. I don't love all of his acting choices, but when I do I REALLY do. 

[HeatLifer]

2 minutes ago, Princess Kelbop said:

Are these Jason/Liz fans from the SBu era or do they like BM?

Both. A lot of Liz fans loved Jakeson before Ron put the lie on Liz.

I think most Liz/Lucky fans are those that enjoyed them from the late '90s. Liz and Lucky as a couple were destroyed in my eyes once he was recast and it never got better, even when JJ came back. The relationship was toast. And it's always something I wish the show never did. I wish they would have taken care of Liz/Lucky and not crapped on them for Liason.

[Melgaypet]

7 minutes ago, Princess Kelbop said:

Did Liz cheating on THE DEFINITIVE LUCKY tarnish that in many folks' eyes though? How could she do that if her were truly her lobster?

Possibly for some, but not for me. Lucky has cheated on her, too. Not with JJ in the role, but then Niz started when Greg Vaughn was still playing Lucky. Being lobsters doesn't mean their relationship is perfect. They are both very flawed people and they have specific issues with each other that get in the way. Liz is self-destructive, will subconsciously torpedo her own happiness because she doesn't believe she deserves it, and can't fully get over seeing Lucky as a hero who she needs to "fix" her and then is resentful of that perceived dependence. Lucky is also self-destructive, has been conditioned from childhood to flee unpleasant situations instead of resolving them, thinks he's not good enough for Elizabeth, has a tendency to put her on a pedestal despite knowing better, and feels his worth to her is tied to being the steady hero, husband, and father that he's not wholly convinced he can be. They have a lot in common and both are rather self-righteous and also secretly convinced that they are worse people than they are. BUT, I believe they love each other and understand each other in a way no one else ever has, and that they will never actually fall completely out of love. They're in each other's blood and bone.

This is all IMO, obviously.

[Oracle42]

That is the most beautiful and perfect description of LL2 that I've ever read.

[peachmangosteen]

Yea I don't know much about Liz/Lucky since as I said I never watched when they were together, but that makes me wanna seek out their story tbh. 

[HeatLifer]

6 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Yea I don't know much about Liz/Lucky since as I said I never watched when they were together, but that makes me wanna seek out their story tbh. 

Just watch the '90s. Trust me. 

[Melgaypet]

*blushes*

That's what happens when the foolish, romantic, inner shipper slips past the bitter, jaded veneer and word vomits all over you nice people.

[HeatLifer]

1 minute ago, Melgaypet said:

*blushes*

That's what happens when the foolish, romantic, inner shipper slips past the bitter, jaded veneer and word vomits all over you nice people.

I agree with every word you typed. And I wouldn't call myself a REAL shipper bc I only love JJ's Lucky and Liz. I hated everything that was done to the pairing once Lucky was recast.  They should have been IT for each other. This show clearly had other plans that make me rage-y.

[ulkis]

1 hour ago, HeatLifer said:

Just watch the '90s. Trust me. 

I think peach would like a lot of the GV era. (and peach, tbh you'd probably crack up at a lot of the Jacob Young era too!)

1 hour ago, HeatLifer said:

I agree with every word you typed. And I wouldn't call myself a REAL shipper bc I only love JJ's Lucky and Liz. I hated everything that was done to the pairing once Lucky was recast.  They should have been IT for each other. This show clearly had other plans that make me rage-y.

I'm able to ignore it because ALL soap couples go to shit eventually, all of them, if they stay on long enough. I'm willing to ignore the bullshit if they turn away from it. There's one or two exceptions that I can't get past but Lucky and Liz aren't in that category.

[HeatLifer]

5 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I think peach would like a lot of the GV era. (and peach, tbh you'd probably crack up at a lot of the Jacob Young era too!)

I was just talking about Liz/Lucky. I don't think their relationship was good in any sense of the word after Lucky "died." I personally wouldn't recommend anyone specifically watch it, lol.

7 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I'm able to ignore it because ALL soap couples go to shit eventually, all of them, if they stay on long enough. I'm willing to ignore the bullshit if they turn away from it. There's one or two exceptions that I can't get past but Lucky and Liz aren't in that category.

That's good. I'm glad. Every fan has to ignore certain things. It's impossible not to. No ship is perfect. But that's why I said I don't consider myself a real Liz/Lucky fan. I loooooved JJ's Lucky/Liz. I really did. You don't even know, girl. They were my faves. But I never supported the couple after he was recast. I didn't want them together. A real fan would have.

[UYI]

[melody16]

I would go so far as to say that Liz and Luckys scenes when he bought Jake back showed the most connection and heart as any scene with any other characters since. I didn't always love Liz and Lucky, but original LL2 were just the best. Their story sucked in 2009-2011, so I am so glad they got those scenes with Jake.

[KerleyQ]

I actually liked the Liz/GV Lucky wedding.  I thought it was sweet and their honeymoon scene was rather hot.  (And is one of the reasons I never bought the "I never had good sex until Nik" bullshit).  But, they shot that pairing to Hell and back when they decided to make Lucky an emotionally abusive, controlling, cheating druggie.  That was so wrong.  

[HeatLifer]

2 minutes ago, KerleyQ said:

I actually liked the Liz/GV Lucky wedding.  I thought it was sweet and their honeymoon scene was rather hot.  (And is one of the reasons I never bought the "I never had good sex until Nik" bullshit).  But, they shot that pairing to Hell and back when they decided to make Lucky an emotionally abusive, controlling, cheating druggie.  That was so wrong.  

And this is what bugs me about Liz/Lucky. According to the show, Nik is the best sex she ever had and Jason is her greatest love. Who is Lucky to her? And we can fanwank all we want (and I'm not saying that in a disrespectful way bc I'm including myself in the "we"), but it doesn't change what this show has presented for years and years.

[KerleyQ]

5 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

And this is what bugs me about Liz/Lucky. According to the show, Nik is the best sex she ever had and Jason is her greatest love. Who is Lucky to her? And we can fanwank all we want (and I'm not saying that in a disrespectful way bc I'm including myself in the "we"), but it doesn't change what this show has presented for years and years.

It's absolutely infuriating what they've done there (and they can say both things until the cows come home, but I'll never really buy either, especially not Nik being the best sex. I refuse to believe that self-absorbed douchebag is about anything other than getting his in bed).  But, I'm such a sucker for BH/JJ that, if he does come back whenever this shitfest ends, I'll forgive pretty much anything if we just get a decent chunk of time devoted to the two of them reuniting and getting past all of their shit.  I don't even care.  

[HeatLifer]

3 minutes ago, KerleyQ said:

(and they can say both things until the cows come home, but I'll never really buy either, especially not Nik being the best sex. I refuse to believe that self-absorbed douchebag is about anything other than getting his in bed).

LMAO. I don't agree with either, as well. And the Jason one drives me nuts bc Liason never had a real romantic relationship! How does she consider that man her great love!?! 

5 minutes ago, KerleyQ said:

But, I'm such a sucker for BH/JJ

Me too, me too. I'm more a fan of them and their chemistry than Liz and Lucky's entire story, I'll just say that.