Elizabeth Webber: Forever The Manipulative Miss Or Adorable Angel?

[peachmangosteen]

For example - Sam sits by and watches Liz's kid get kidnapped, taunts her that he's probably dead, and then terrorizes her and her kids with some rent-a-thugs.  But, of course, she ends up helping save Jake once they decided to build Sam back up, and eventually she gets Jason back and all is good.  Does anyone think there is some moment coming where Liz saves Danny somehow?  Where she's given the time to make amends to people?  Even if Becky does stay, that just won't happen.

 

Liz saved Nik and her house was blown up/Jake was injured, so that's supposed to be what 'redeems' her. I guess I don't really see how that's much different than Sam saving Jake 'redeeming' her for the kidnapping plot.

 

To me Liz basically comes off as a character we're supposed to see as a good person but who they continually have do shitty things and then expect us to just forget about them even though she doesn't really pay for them. So, the same as Sam basically. (Except that I don't think we're supposed to see Sam as an angel type character like we are with Liz.) Or the same as most of the characters.

 

The writing sucks. The characterization sucks. No one ever grows or learns. I don't think Liz is somehow special in this instance or that the writers are in the writing room going, "Let's make Sam a hero and Liz a devil."

Edited February 18, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[LeftPhalange]

The writing sucks. The characterization sucks. No one ever grows or learns. I don't think Liz is somehow special in this instance or that the writers are in the writing room going, "Let's make Sam a hero and Liz a devil."

 

Most of the characters who existed before Ron or these current people took over have been trashed, written out of character, and/or victimized. Sam included. I doubt the writers are specifically targeting Liz and her fans, they're just unimaginative and lazy so they continue to have her acting pathetic, desperate, and fickle instead of letting her (or anyone else) grow. And they're hellbent on restarting Sam vs Liz since that topic tends to overwhelm message boards and to them all publicity is good publicity. 

[ulkis]

I think it would ease up a bit, the comparisons, if they had someone else in that age range. Another reason they should have never killed off Emily.

[Oracle42]

Hey, at least Kiki can show up to a Sam family event. Julian can give Sam work, if she wantes. Ava? She can give Sam a deal on some new art. Or she too could hire Sam for protection. Which would be the smartest thing for Ava to do.

But none of that is happening because these relationships aren't about Sam. It's the same reason a man in his 50s and a woman in her 40s are toting around newborns, RC liked to claim history but had no real interest in actually relating these characters to any real GH history aside from creating insta-ties to the canvas

And I have to disagree with you about Monica not being very maternal. Especially with Emily. And I think that after Emily's death, she would still be close to Emily's closest friends. Since Em and Liz were like sisters and Liz worked with Monica at the same hospital it would be even more likely they would be close. And factor in Liz's relationship with Jason. Laura was away in Crazytown for the better part of a decade or more. Most of that out of PC. And Bobbie moved away for years. Leaving Liz, with only her aged Gram. Nope. Monica should've always been closer. It would've only intensified the whole Jason lie and left no excuse for the crappy non reaction from Monica we were treated to see.

Liz was part of the Spencer group for most of AT's tenure. By the time NL was cast, Liz was an adult nurse and Bobbie was the reason Liz became one. Liz and Monica were on friendly speaking terms but why would they have been close when Emily was away? I don't remember Monica being particularly close to any of her children's friends. And I don't remember a ton of early Liz/Jason but their 2006/07 relationship was a secret and most of their meeting were in the safe house; Monica wasn't involved.

Monica adored Emily; she loved all of her children but that's not the same thing as being an approachable mother figure to her children's friends. She did seem very supportive of AJ's relationship with Liz, though - so she does like her

I agree that there should have been a confrontation between Liz/Monica but one of the many problems with the Jakeson s/l was that all of these confrontations have happened before. Liz has kept a life changing secret (with Nik) from her fiancé. Monica has already confronted her about lying about Jake - Scott Sickles wasn't going to improve on that

Edited February 18, 2016 by Oracle42

[Ambrosefolly]

I actually thought it was pretty stupid to have Monica that mad at Liz for keeping the Jake secret because in that cause, Jason was well aware of that Jake was his and if he wanted to share the secret, he could have at anytime. One of the many reasons I hated his character. His fucking harem/cult ganged up on Liz and blamed her for Jason keeping quiet about his son. I actually didn't think Liz was really obligated to tell Monica about Jake.

[Oracle42]

Given her reasoning for keeping the secret? No, it wouldn't have made sense to tell Monica

[Darklazr]

Audrey, Monica, Gayle and Lee are all friends and it would have made sense for Monica to have been interested in Liz and her boys after Emily died.  Monica and Edward both knew that Liz took a DNA test on baby Jake and neither one bothered to confront Liz or for Edward to sneak his own DNA tes?!

 

There were times when I think BH having children may have forced the writers to just backburner the character or use her sparingly which is a shame and now there is Hayden/ReBu a pet to take over Liz's role on the show.

 

As for Sam, KeMo was a Frons pet and the man never saw the appeal of Liz/BH.  

 

I think it was Bradford Anderson that said when the show brings on extra family for a character, it means the character is NOT working and the actor should be concerned which is why he was happy not to have any relatives on the show.  Or maybe I imagined the entire situation!

I actually thought it was pretty stupid to have Monica that mad at Liz for keeping the Jake secret because in that cause, Jason was well aware of that Jake was his and if he wanted to share the secret, he could have at anytime. One of the many reasons I hated his character. His fucking harem/cult ganged up on Liz and blamed her for Jason keeping quiet about his son. I actually didn't think Liz was really obligated to tell Monica about Jake.

 

Jason wanted to tell Monica in 2008 while she was in rehab that Jake was his son, and Liz said no because too many people already knew the truth!  Lawd.  This show and its BS reasons for keeping baby Jake a secret.

I actually thought it was pretty stupid to have Monica that mad at Liz for keeping the Jake secret because in that cause, Jason was well aware of that Jake was his and if he wanted to share the secret, he could have at anytime. One of the many reasons I hated his character. His fucking harem/cult ganged up on Liz and blamed her for Jason keeping quiet about his son. I actually didn't think Liz was really obligated to tell Monica about Jake.

 

Jason wanted to tell Monica in 2008 while she was in rehab that Jake was his son, and Liz said no because too many people already knew the truth!  Lawd.  This show and its BS reasons for keeping baby Jake a secret.

[Ambrosefolly]

Audrey, Monica, Gayle and Lee are all friends and it would have made sense for Monica to have been interested in Liz and her boys after Emily died.  Monica and Edward both knew that Liz took a DNA test on baby Jake and neither one bothered to confront Liz or for Edward to sneak his own DNA tes?!

 

There were times when I think BH having children may have forced the writers to just backburner the character or use her sparingly which is a shame and now there is Hayden/ReBu a pet to take over Liz's role on the show.

 

As for Sam, KeMo was a Frons pet and the man never saw the appeal of Liz/BH.  

 

I think it was Bradford Anderson that said when the show brings on extra family for a character, it means the character is NOT working and the actor should be concerned which is why he was happy not to have any relatives on the show.  Or maybe I imagined the entire situation!

 

Jason wanted to tell Monica in 2008 while she was in rehab that Jake was his son, and Liz said no because too many people already knew the truth!  Lawd.  This show and its BS reasons for keeping baby Jake a secret.

 

Jason wanted to tell Monica in 2008 while she was in rehab that Jake was his son, and Liz said no because too many people already knew the truth!  Lawd.  This show and its BS reasons for keeping baby Jake a secret.

 

Believe me, no one is happier than me that not only did Spinelli not have any long lost family came onto the canvas, but they didn't tie him to any existing family on the show. (except for a Jones' baby daddy) 

 

Another thing what does Bradford Anderson really know about it? I think Bobbie Spencer was working just fine, but they still brought on her brother and aunt. They used Alan Q to usher in the rest of his family, and his character was partial responsible for saving GH. They brought on an entire family for Johnny Zacharra and even casted Sarah Brown as his sister/mother, and he became a fan favorite. If anything, creating a family around your character is a vote of confidence. The time to be really concerned is when they give familial ties to random families on canvas, like Franco with Qs and then the Baldwins or Sam with Alexis, which was a final Hail Mary attempt to keep Sam's character around, or they start removing family, which they did to Johnny in his last few months (by his hand no less) and currently Liz's situation. 

 

Even still, family wise, Liz is in a completely different situation than BA's Spinelli because one of Liz's reasons for existing is because she is one of Jeff Weber's children and Steve Hardy's grandchildren whereas Spinelli was some random dude that turned into head cult member of Jasus the Hitman. She was introduced after Sarah was and Steven Lars was born on the show. So audience already had an investment in Liz's family. But its was the shows poor casting (can't believe Mark Teschner wasn't able to get a good actress for Sarah) and poor writing that did in her brother and sister. There are still Steve's adopted son and grandson (both also born on the show). 

 

As for Liz being a mom, never stopped Carly from having tons of screen time and storylines. I think the only break I got from the damn character was when Tamara Braun's replacement didn't work out and they sent the character to the nut house.  Cam should have been aged up to Molly's age years ago or even the age of Herbt's actual son, thereby being able to hold a conversation with her. But they de-aged the kid who thankfully is no longer in that painful triangle with Spencer and Emma. 

 

As for when Jason wanted to tell people in 2008 and Liz told him no, just another excuse for having Liz "controlling" Jason, and Jason being made out to be the conflicted innocent who doesn't want to keep his bio family in the dark (but they still weren't allowed to see Michael without his worthless "parents"). Jason, who never missed an chance to tell others what choices they should make. If Jason didn't agree with Liz, he could have still told Monica and there would be little Liz could do about it. If he wanted to be respectful of her decisions, thats on him. 

Edited February 19, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[UYI]

One question: did Liz have any interaction with Rick (her uncle, not her ex husband) during his brief return in 2002? If so, did they talk about Jeff or her phantom mom? 

[dubbel zout]

I don't remember Liz and Rick Webber having any scenes together. I don't think they ever played up that family tie, TBH. Liz was more of a Hardy than a Webber.

[UYI]

That's still pretty lame, though--he was still her uncle, so that's a pretty blatant disregard to history at a time when things like that probably would have still mattered. 

Edited February 19, 2016 by UYI

[yowsah1]

I think it would ease up a bit, the comparisons, if they had someone else in that age range. Another reason they should have never killed off Emily.

 

Or TPTB should have kept Robin Scorpio on canvas.

 

But they went to a lot of work to try to make the character [sam] happen 

 

That, I believe, is the nub of the issue - the writers of this show have all invested a lot of care and effort into not only making Sam happen, but making her the #1 heroine of the show.  They have invested no effort whatsoever in the character of Liz - she's just a handy tool to use to prop Jasam or act as a spoiler to Jasam or plug into whatever other hole they think needs filling.  The indifference is galling.

Edited February 21, 2016 by yowsah1

[ulkis]

Or TPTB should have kept Robin Scorpio on canvas.

 

I don't think recasting Robin would have been a good idea, besides, at the most, wrapping up the kidnap story if they could not have gotten Kim back.

That, I believe, is the nub of the issue - the writers of this show have all invested a lot of care and effort into not only making Sam happen, but making her the #1 heroine of the show.  They have invested no effort whatsoever in the character of Liz - she's just a handy tool to use to prop Jasam or act as a spoiler to Jasam or plug into whatever other hole they think needs filling.  The indifference is galling.

 

In 2003-4, yeah I think they did their best to make Sam happen, and it finally worked. I don't think they have to put any more effort into making Sam happen, she already happened a decade ago. I think, when Guza was writing, the reason Sam gained prominence as a character was because she was with Jason and Liz declined was because no one (as in the writers) cared about her without JJ and even by the time JJ came back they didn't care enough. And then Frank and Ron came and Frank liked ME and wanted to try to recreate the Port Charles pairing with him and KeMo, and in general I think KeMo's cache rose with her Dancing with the Stars stuff. I don't think was done at Liz's expense. Like Heatlifer said, due to luck and circumstance, KeMo became the leading woman under Frank and Ron. It isn't just a Sam/KeMo v Liz/Becky thing, I don't think. It's basically just KeMo over all the other women of the show.

[Oracle42]

I think the number of soap fans who voted for KeMo on DwtS surprised TPTB. I think they underestimated the number/energy/passion of soap fans. I think many soap actresses could've done the same but I remember that even soap fans that loathed Sam were indignant when the judges were harsh with KeMo

Edited February 21, 2016 by Oracle42

[tallyrand]

Considering kemo and BH are about the same age and I think play the only two female characters of that age, and characters that have shared three men, including Jasus's golden dong, I think the comparison is apt and appropriate. I am in in way blaming kemo, it's on the writers. I think it's an unavoidable fact that Liz has gotten shafted while Sam has experienced the exact opposite.

Sam has a mother, father, sisters, a brother, cousins etc. all on campus, some of those relationships occuring in the last two years. Liz has...Laura? The writers chose to connect sam to the Davis family and the cassadines when they made her Alexis' daughter. They chose to soras Molly and Kristina (even if it was more for Sonny than Sam, Sam still reaped some benefit) while not doing the same to Liz's children. They chose to introduce Sams father giving her a whole new family. The writers could have given Liz a story with her mother or invented a half sibling...the list is endless. They chose not to while focusing on beefing up Sam's connections. They chose to fail to follow through on Liz's friendship with Sabrina and even olivia, so Liz has no friends other than nikolas.

They also chose to make her the bad guy and Sam the good guy in this awful jasus story while also choosing to completely whitewash Nikolas and make him Liz's victim. Although Liz has no house and almost lost her son again, I do agree Liz got of somewhat easy for this lie in part because she has no connections that could get mad at her in a reasonant way!

The writers specifically pitted Sam and Liz against each other, so it's hard to blame the audience for doing the same. Despite Liz coming from a founding family, she can basically lift right out of this show. It's shameful, and says a lot about BH as an actress that Liz has remained popular. I really hope Becky leaves for bigger and better, in part, because I am shocked a show has made me this bitter.

Edited February 21, 2016 by tallyrand

[katie9918]

Quite honestly, has Liz EVER mentioned Steve Hardy?

I understand why she's more about Audrey (the living step-grandparent who she can have a relationship with), but has she ever mentioned Steve?

I'm just asking because so many seem to be so resentful of 95% of the other characters on Liz's behalf because Liz is a so-called "legacy" character (though no one knew of her existence until she and Sarah actually appeared on-screen) yet she hasn't said much about her grandfather, if she ever actually knew him.

Edited February 21, 2016 by katie9918

[dubbel zout]

It's basically just KeMo over all the other women of the show.

 

Save for Carly. I think LW is the lead actress, though it makes sense KeMo would submit herself in that category. Right now Sam's story is taking precedence.

 

Quite honestly, has Liz EVER mentioned Steve Hardy?

 

Yes, mostly in a nostalgic way. It's not often, probably because the hospital side gets so little attention.

[fishcakes]

Steve died in '96 and Liz appeared in '97, so they never knew each other, at least onscreen. But even if she had been there earlier, I doubt there would have been much interaction since Steve Hardy was backburnered in the late 70s and didn't do much of anything for his last 15 years or so. They threw him and Audrey a bone of a story every once in a while, but the audience didn't care. Mostly they trotted him out once a year at Christmas to read to the kids. To be honest, John Beradino wasn't hugely talented, and he may have been the originator of Smell the Fart acting. Steve might be the reason I can't get too agitated about legacy characters or legacy families; just because something is long-standing doesn't mean it's any good.

Edited February 21, 2016 by fishcakes

[Ambrosefolly]

Steve died in '96 and Liz appeared in '97, so they never knew each other, at least onscreen. But even if she had been there earlier, I doubt there would have been much interaction since Steve Hardy was backburnered in the late 70s and didn't do much of anything for his last 15 years or so. They threw him and Audrey a bone of a story every once in a while, but the audience didn't care. Mostly they trotted him out once a year at Christmas to read to the kids. To be honest, John Beradino wasn't hugely talented, and he may have been the originator of Smell the Fart acting. Steve might be the reason I can't get too agitated about legacy characters or legacy families; just because something is long-standing doesn't mean it's any good.

Well, John Beradino was entering his 60s when Gloria Monty came and turned GH around and she did keep him on contract until he died, and according to a joint interview I believe with Kin Shriner and Jacklyn Zeman, she wouldn't have done that without a good reason. 

 

I believe that reason is as follows:

 

And there is the problem, not the lack of doctors, the lack of The Doctor, and I don't mean who, I mean Steve. Steve was the moral epicenter of the show. For Guza or Ron or now Frank (since I am not at all convinced the writers are doing anything and I secretly think Frank is funneling scripts to his buddy Ron) to return the focus of the show to a Doctor, they would need to deal with Steve. Since his passing the show has not had a true moral center...there have been some near misses: Mac primarily, Alan, Robin, oddly enough near the end Edward, more recently Anna, but no one has emerged as the moral epicenter because that would mean an acknowledgement that Sonny, Carly, Jason, Dr. O and Franco are not moral people.  Remember Sonny, Franco and the rest are not hard to watch because they are bad guys, that are actually vaguely interesting as bad guys they are hard to watch because we are suppose to believe they are heroes and good guys, in other words the moral center. We are suppose to believe that Dr. O is on the same medical level as Steve Hardy, and while she may be a better doctor she is not a better person and therein lies the problem with a return to the hospital, A doctor needs to be a good person, even with flaws. Rick, Monica, Alan and Jeff all had flaws but were all in the end "good" people. For all of Alan's "trying" to kill Rick and Monica there was the Alan who became like a father to  Stone as he died. For all of Monica;s infidelity there was the Monica who took in orphan Emily and made her her daughter. Genuinely moral people who took real action in terms of being moral. We are suppose to believe Sonny is moral because we are told, we never see it.  And please do not get me started on Tony, who should have become the shows moral epicenter after the death of Steve but instead was destroyed by Guza to build Jason.  Once you have a moral epicenter the others characters have a "go to" person to ground them in their actions: In was no small piece of good writing that had Luke and Laura sneak into the Hospital and meet Steve Hardy when they first returned to PC. The first thing they did was "check-in" with the heart of the show.

And whatever one thinks about "legacy characters", Rebecca Herbst as Liz has amassed her own fanbase, a fanbase that the show regularly taunts and abuses because they know how loyal it is. If being descended from a legacy character was enough to secure yourself a job, both Sarah and Steven Lars we still be on the show, but they aren't but she still is even after the first attempt to fire her. I actually wonder if blowing up her character's home was FV's way of getting her in line. 

[dubbel zout]

I actually wonder if blowing up her character's home was FV's way of getting her in line.

 

I wouldn't put it past Frank, but I also think it would be more of a warning (as it were) if Sam and Jason hadn't been there at the time of the explosion. It was so plot pointy to get Sam and Jason together that way, but it's not as if it couldn't have happened in some other fashion. This does double duty, of course, but in some ways, Liz's house exploding wasn't really about her. As is often the case with Liz.

 

She can stay with Nik indefinitely, if it comes to that, so not having her own place isn't on the same level as Anna being homeless.

Edited February 21, 2016 by dubbel zout

[Ambrosefolly]

I wouldn't put it past Frank, but I also think it would be more of a warning (as it were) if Sam and Jason hadn't been there at the time of the explosion. It was so plot pointy to get Sam and Jason together that way, but it's not as if it couldn't have happened in some other fashion. This does double duty, of course, but in some ways, Liz's house exploding wasn't really about her. As is often the case with Liz.

 

She can stay with Nik indefinitely, if it comes to that, so not having her own place isn't on the same level as Anna being homeless.

I think it is. Anna at least had Mac (where ever the hell he is living after the last IIC burned down his home) or even Patrick. Maybe Jax could have forced Carly to give Anna his old penthouse. All people she has a familial/friendship connection too. Rebecca Herbst has had that set since 2007  and now Liz has to stay with someone that she has an extremely complicated and now toxic relationship with, and I am not talking about Hayden. 

[stlbf]

Have to say, I did enjoy Liz being pretty damn passive aggressive with St. Jason today concerning Franco's gift to Jake. She knows that she can't really admit that Jason's sudden closeness with Sam hurts and shocks her. So she tries to do what Liz does best: bury it. She has done it with pretty much all of her relationships. But it had to feel nice being the good parent in Jake's eyes and to shock and annoy Jason for not immediately agreeing to his wishes. Liz would be a robot if she could just switch her feelings on bad off. She had deep feelings for Jason for the better part of a decade. She was in love with "Jake" and then found out about his true identity. The woman is hurt. Especially seeing this love of her life so easily just moving on with Sam.

Dream outcome here? This Jasam crap finally kills Liz's damn near endless love/lust for Jason. And let's see if Liz finding her groove and not letting Jason have any say in her life sits with Jason.

[tallyrand]

Yep.  Liz being passive-aggressive about the bike, I had no problem with that. I actually liked all the performances in that scene (I will grudgingly admit even BM...he felt more like Jason to me).  Liz's love for Jason is one of those things that goes in and out.  In 2008, she told Patrick she was only infatuated with Jason, then in 2012, she has always been in love with him etc. etc.  Liz viewing Jason as a safe place when things get rough and the "one that got away" feels more real to me than saying she has been in love with him all this time. I think most people have that relationship in their lives...the one they wish they took a chance on and wonder what it would have been like.  But she's living in the past.  The part that weirds me out though is that BM is not Jason.  He acts nothing like him.  I actually feel that, more than Sam, Liz loves this Jason.  Sam is still figuring out if she loves this Jason or not. 

 

As for Jason, I have no idea what his feelings are.  He did love Liz and now he doesn't based on her lie.  Fine, makes sense.  But now he's all about Sam without really getting to know her in a romantic sense (have they even gone on a date? talked about mundane couple things?).  It's so strange and so instant.  I get that he is getting more of Jason's memories about Sam and feels those feelings, but all the Jasam stuff feels so forced to me.  And, as I said, this Jason is nothing like old Jason, so why is Sam all of a sudden so crazy about him?  Liz had romantic feelings for Jake before he was Jason, she was on her way to loving him. Sam did not.  If Liz hadn't lied about Jason's identify, would Jake still be with Elizabeth? Or would he have these feelings for Sam?  

 

The writers took the easy way out by making Liz the deceiver.  But, in a way, I am glad because I really don't want Liz in scenes with Jason anymore.  

Edited March 4, 2016 by tallyrand

[stlbf]

The whole Sam/Jason suddenness is just stupid and lazy to me. Liz did have solid feelings for Jake. We got to see the relationship grow for months. The whole JaSam = Wuv! is just overly simple and lazy. People keep going on and on about KM & BM having chemistry, but I just don't see them having any more than BH & BM.

I love the whole bike scene. Passive aggression was perfect for Liz. It is something Liz has done in her past. If anything Jason should've known that he was really starting to pissed Liz off with his invite to Sam. He lived with her for almost a year. He should be able to pick up on her emotional cues. Then the whole staying over in her hotel room. Liz is under a shit load of pressure (troubled injured son, broken heart and now she is homeless). But to invite Sam down was a pretty thoughtless act to inflict on Liz. Talk to Sam. Meet her in Philly. Have a morning or day with her and Danny in the city. Meet with her and let Jason take Danny to see Jake. But don't throw her in Liz's face.

[Oracle42]

Why? Why is that something he owes her? If she's suffering it's because of choices that she's made - it's not his responsibility to mitigate that for her. He's not being actively unkind to her and I don't think she's entitled to more than that

[katie9918]

Why? Why is that something he owes her? If she's suffering it's because of choices that she's made - it's not his responsibility to mitigate that for her. He's not being actively unkind to her and I don't think she's entitled to more than that

Agreed.

Jason owes Liz nothing.

[stlbf]

Why? Because Liz is the mother to his oldest child. Because it generally isn't a smart thing to go out of your way to pissed off your ex, especially since she has custody of said child. Liz has owned up to her stupid choice to hide his true identity. But it isn't like she went out and killed someone. Or hired thugs to threaten Sam and Danny. Or is an arms dealer.

The woman kept up a lie. And Jason is allowed to be mad. But when your ex is dealing with a severely injured child, has to take said child away from her 2 other young boys for treatment and she is stuck in a strange city. Oh, and his stupid twit of wife also accidentally blew up Liz's home, leaving her family homeless. So it wouldn't kill Jason to think and maybe, just MAYBE, it might be a tad insensitive to Liz to invite Sam down to the hospital. The general idea is that it is better to ease stress on parents, not add to them.

I didn't say that Jason couldn't call or even ask Sam and Danny down. It just would've been better to meet Sam away from the hospital. Alot of separated/divorced people with kids have issues with new significant others being around when dealing in highly charged situations like medical emergencies.

[LeftPhalange]

If Jason can deal with Nik hanging around the hospital without flashing bitch face and acting petty then Liez should be able to do the same in regards to Sam. The only thing Jason owes her is to be a good fake father to Lucky's kid. Liez's pain is of her own making and Jason shouldn't be expected to accommodate her childishness and inability to accept his relationship with Sam. 

[Oracle42]

But Sam isn't a "new significant other". She was in a relationship with Jason before DNAJ was conceived and Liz knew that Sam and Jason were married when she climbed into bed with him. Her current discomfort with Sam has nothing to do with anything Sam has done (while yes, it's ridiculous that Liz isn't blaming Sam for blowing up her house, it's equally ridiculous that Sam isn't furious with Liz for lying about her husband, so..)

Edited March 6, 2016 by Oracle42

[stlbf]

Who said that Liz isn't accepting any sort of JaSam relationship? She hasn't said that Sam can't be with Jason. All I am saying is that Jason is being an insensitive dumbass to the woman who was his fiancee until just a couple of months ago. And said ex is the mother of a very troubled and now physically injured little boy. Why the hell would you intentionally hurt someone like that? Even Sam was like, I'll comeback later, when Liz came to the lobby. And Jason was all, Oh, it is fine, stay. Jesus. Even Sam had more sense.

Nik had the terrible nerve to bring Liz's sons down to see her and Jake. Oh, and give them a place to live. Since Sam BLEW UP LIZ'S HOME. And everything in it. Don't see Jason wondering where this family is now going to live.

But Liz told a lie. So she deserves to have her wishes and feelings ignored? Heaven forbid she catch a break. If you are dumb enough to bring your current squeeze into a forum with your ex, not long after a nasty breakup, a little bitch face and passive aggressive spat is the least you should expect. Common sense.

[stlbf]

But Sam isn't a "new significant other". She was in a relationship with Jason before DNAJ was conceived and Liz knew that Sam and Jason were married when she climbed into bed with him. Her current discomfort with Sam has nothing to do with anything Sam has done (while yes, it's ridiculous that Liz isn't blaming Sam for blowing up her house, it's equally ridiculous that Sam isn't furious with Liz for lying about her husband, so..)

So Liz and Jason hooking up is Liz's fault? Sam fucking her step father and Jason walking in has less culpability than Liz having her marriage shattered by junkie Lucky cheating on her (again)? Jake is here because 2 marriages imploded by cheating spouses and a defective condom.

Sam is not some innocent loyal wife who had her husband knock up some mistress.

And yes, Sam is a new SO. She new to the Webber family dynamics. Liz is hurting. Her life is literally in shambles. And yeah, Sam did cause a part of it ( house explosion). Sam isn't going to be hurt if she isn't around Liz. So why the fuss if she isn't? Liz isn't in any way, shape or form to tell poor Jason, no. Which is why most women I know have a bestie who could tell Jason that he being an insensitive asshat. Nicely or bitch style. But thanks to this stupid show, the only real women friends on this show are Maxie/Lulu and Alexis/Diane.

[tallyrand]

I do like that sam gave into jasons bullying to come to the hospital when she didn't want to and liz didn't give in about Franco even if it was petulant. I understand that sam is jasons wife and liz will have to put up with her. It just seemed like jason took the wrong moment to push the issue. Liz and sam had made peace so maybe give them both some time to come to terms with it. I really don't see why jason forced sam to be there for Jakes discharge other than to start drama or make liz uncomfortable. Which liz might deserve but the time is not right. This was a happy moment for him to share with his son, not a painful moment where he would want sams support. Basically liz has set herself up to be in the "wrong" whenever she interacts with the killer and his mob moll because she lied. But that doesn't mean jason isn't a douche.

I actually don't think liz should be mad at sam for blowing up her house. It wasn't on purpose.

Edited March 6, 2016 by tallyrand

[peachmangosteen]

If Jason can deal with Nik hanging around the hospital without flashing bitch face and acting petty then Liez should be able to do the same in regards to Sam.

 

Jason was kinda bitch facey with Nik though tbh. But that felt less petty to me, considering Nik kept his identity from him for months. Liz's reaction to Jason/Sam was just straight-up immature/petty/bitchy because the only person to blame for Liz not having Jason now is Liz herself so she really has no room to be her petty self over it.

 

For Liz to be so immature and petty that to get back at Jason for spending time with his wife she'd let Franco, who she herself obviously has many qualms about, give her child a bike and spend time with him is just something else. 

 

But I love it. To me this is precisely who Liz is, a petty, immature bitch, and I actually enjoy her that way. It's when she starts acting all doe-eyed innocent angel like and using her baby voice that I can't stand her.

Edited March 6, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[fishcakes]

All I am saying is that Jason is being an insensitive dumbass to the woman who was his fiancee until just a couple of months ago. And said ex is the mother of a very troubled and now physically injured little boy. Why the hell would you intentionally hurt someone like that? Even Sam was like, I'll comeback later, when Liz came to the lobby. And Jason was all, Oh, it is fine, stay. Jesus. Even Sam had more sense.

 

Nik had the terrible nerve to bring Liz's sons down to see her and Jake. Oh, and give them a place to live. Since Sam BLEW UP LIZ'S HOME. And everything in it. Don't see Jason wondering where this family is now going to live.

 

The exact opposite could be said as well, though. Liz was being an insensitive dumbass to the man who was her fiance until recently. Said ex is the father of a troubled, injured boy. Nik did not offer to leave the lobby when Jason appeared and Liz didn't ask him to. Just as Nik brought Liz's sons to see her and Jake, Sam brought Jason's son to see him and Jake.

 

I don't think Sam is to blame for Liz's house blowing up; she's just the person who happened to get trapped in the basement. Liz is the one who had a leaking fuel tank, a faulty electrical outlet, and an old space heater in a home where three boys under ten live. If this were real life and not plot point city, Aiden or Jake would have been the ones to cause the house to explode.

[Oracle42]

So Liz and Jason hooking up is Liz's fault? Sam fucking her step father and Jason walking in has less culpability than Liz having her marriage shattered by junkie Lucky cheating on her (again)? Jake is here because 2 marriages imploded by cheating spouses and a defective condom.

Sam is not some innocent loyal wife who had her husband knock up some mistress.

And yes, Sam is a new SO. She new to the Webber family dynamics. Liz is hurting. Her life is literally in shambles. And yeah, Sam did cause a part of it ( house explosion). Sam isn't going to be hurt if she isn't around Liz. So why the fuss if she isn't? Liz isn't in any way, shape or form to tell poor Jason, no. Which is why most women I know have a bestie who could tell Jason that he being an insensitive asshat. Nicely or bitch style. But thanks to this stupid show, the only real women friends on this show are Maxie/Lulu and Alexis/Diane.

I didn't blame Liz for the SOS - my point was that Sam has been in Jason's life for well over a decade and since before Jake was conceived. Sam is also not new to the Webber family dynamic, she was around them when she and Lucky dated.

[dubbel zout]

I actually don't think liz should be mad at sam for blowing up her house. It wasn't on purpose.

 

That whole plot was such dumb soap. I don't think Liz should be mad, either, and she doesn't seem to be.

[peachmangosteen]

Yea, Liz doesn't seem to be mad at Sam for that. Or mad/upset about it at all actually. She's reserving all her anger for losing Jason to Sam apparently. Oh, Liz. Move on! You can do much better than Jason!

[dubbel zout]

This triangle needs to be dead and buried in salted earth. It goes nowhere and is it really worth riling up the fan bases for a few months at a time? Give Liz a happy relationship with someone else.

[peachmangosteen]

This triangle needs to be dead and buried in salted earth. It goes nowhere and is it really worth riling up the fan bases for a few months at a time? Give Liz a happy relationship with someone else.

 

THIS. Like I feel like this is the one thing most Liz and Sam fans can agree on. I mean I wish they'd let Sam have a happy relationship with someone else too, but I'm resigned to Jason being her endgame. 

 

Anyway, remember Liz/AJ? Sigh, good times. Until it was ruined, as all good things are on this show.

Edited March 7, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[Darklazr]

JaSam were together from 2004 until Jason dumped Sam's ass in the hospital during 2006 May sweeps, and Jake was conceived three months later, so they were never together for ten years.  Sam was with Lucky from 2007 until 2009, so JaSam were not a couple for ten years.  Jason died November 2012 and returned from the dead in September 2014, so JaSam were not together for ten years.

[MissE]

Jason was kinda bitch facey with Nik though tbh. But that felt less petty to me, considering Nik kept his identity from him for months. Liz's reaction to Jason/Sam was just straight-up immature/petty/bitchy because the only person to blame for Liz not having Jason now is Liz herself so she really has no room to be her petty self over it.

 

For Liz to be so immature and petty that to get back at Jason for spending time with his wife she'd let Franco, who she herself obviously has many qualms about, give her child a bike and spend time with him is just something else. 

 

But I love it. To me this is precisely who Liz is, a petty, immature bitch, and I actually enjoy her that way. It's when she starts acting all doe-eyed innocent angel like and using her baby voice that I can't stand her.

Franco gave Jake the bike without Liz knowing, and after all Jake has been through, no way was Liz going to take that bike from him after it made him so happy. It was just an added bonus for her that she pissed off Jason in the process. 

 

I don't even think it was petty, I think she was just tired of Sam being thrown in her face. Liz obviously lost Jason based on her choices, but that doesn't mean that she has to let him just treat her like shit. I'm glad she fought back a little. Sam had no business being there. She's nothing to Jake right now, and considering Jake's issues with her, she should respect that Jake might still have some reservations about her being around him. Of course, I've thought for awhile now that Jason doesn't actually care about Jake or his feelings.

[peachmangosteen]

I don't even think it was petty, I think she was just tired of Sam being thrown in her face. Liz obviously lost Jason based on her choices, but that doesn't mean that she has to let him just treat her like shit. I'm glad she fought back a little. Sam had no business being there. She's nothing to Jake right now, and considering Jake's issues with her, she should respect that Jake might still have some reservations about her being around him.

 

Nik and Franco had no business being there either though. Liz doesn't get to have people there that shouldn't be there and then get pissed when Jason does the same thing. I mean she can, but it makes her look immature and petty. Which imo she is. And like I've said, I like her most when they let her be that and don't try to sell her as some innocent angel.

Edited March 12, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[LeftPhalange]

Sam had no business being there. She's nothing to Jake right now, and considering Jake's issues with her, she should respect that Jake might still have some reservations about her being around him. Of course, I've thought for awhile now that Jason doesn't actually care about Jake or his feelings.

 

Sam came to Shriners Hospital for Children in Philadelphia to see Jason and so Danny could spend time with his father and brother. The few minutes that she spent with DNAJ didn't seem to upset him. He appears to be over his issues with Sam, Liez is the only one acting stank. 

[tallyrand]

It was jasons decision for Sam to come when jake was being discharged, she didn't even want to but of course gave in. Jason is trying to make drama where it doesn't need to be. Elizabeth will have to and shoukd get over her issues with Sam (and the writers are taking one step forward and two steps back with), but jason was trying to make it an awkward situation on purpose. He wanted to rub Sam in Elizabeth's face. Sam taking the apparently 30 minute trip to Philadelphia isn't the problem, it's dumbass Jason.

[dubbel zout]

He wanted to rub Sam in Elizabeth's face.

 

I highly doubt this. Jason hasn't had an active thought since he came back from the dead.

[tallyrand]

Haha well it seemed like he wanted sam there to make a point that sam is in his life and Elizabeth will need to deal. Which is all true but sort of bad timing.

[peachmangosteen]

I didn't see it that way at all. It barely seems like Jason thinks at all, let alone he would think about anything enough to do something purposefully to piss Liz off.

[melody16]

So I am a big Liz fan.  I have liked most of her pairings over the years with a few exceptions (Nik 08-09, Lucky 01-02, Jason 2012), but I have hated with the fire of a thousand suns her pairings with BM's Jake/Jason and now Franco.  It's very disheartening because one thing I could count on while watching this idiot show is that I could get at least enjoy Liz's chemistry with whatever dude the writers had her flip-flopping to that month. Now I am sans even that joy.  

[ulkis]

At least there is thing with Hayden. No, I'm serious. I'm mildly curious as to

the reveal.

.

[dubbel zout]

I confess to mild interest about that, too. I'm sure it will be extremely anticlimactic, and the followthrough will be lame, but I wonder how they'll do it.