Heather Thomson: Inventor of Yummie Tummie

[Mozelle]

Check the first 6 or 7 pages of the S7 E3 thread.  Plenty of outrage, there.

I know. I participated. I guess I'm talking about quips from one in this thread that certainly didn't extend itself to talking about what place, exactly, Dorinda was operating from by making such a gross assumption that a well-dressed Black man would be the (roaming?) coat check employee. "Holla!" is clearly more objectionable. ;)

[Otherkate]

I like Heather's hair. It's very shiny and healthy looking with the honey color with subtle sunkissed highlights. Often looks like Jennifer Anniston's hair color. 

 

 

I was just thinking that during this last episode. I love, love Heather's highlights and color. Does anyone know where she gets it done? Because I will go there immediately.

[lunastartron]

I think that it's a faulty premise to contend that just because one critiques the certain behaviors of one housewife, they are somehow morally obligated to deconstruct the foibles of everyone. Posters have called Bethenny and Aviva racist for the language that each has employed to ridicule Heather's use of the urban vernacular; must those posters then also devote equal amounts of writing to weighing whether or not Heather's fetishization of UV constitutes cultural appropriation and/or even qualifies as fetishization? Also, while I find Dorinda's assumptions about the man in the restaurant to be suggestive of structural racism (and, really, the entire franchise is an exercise in institutionally problematic ideas about race with Andy segregating all of the black casts on their own programs; rarely casting any Hispanic or Latina women outside of Miami and then patting Brandi Glenville on the back after her bigoted hazing of Joyce; and expressing confusion about why "some white woman" was on the casting tape for Atlanta), I don't find a sole episode of misconduct on her part to be analogous at all to Heather's appointment of herself as the arbiter on racial propriety. If Dorinda had said, "I'm not racist for making baseless presumptions about a black man's profession, but everyone else *is* for making assumptions about my presumptions," that would be more comparable (in my personal subjective opinion, of course). Heather may note that she's from the Berkshires; she also says her lingo is "organic" even though she moves from proper grammar to dropping her 'g's and misusing "nothing" when she decides to curse (why can't gangstas theoretically both use slang terminology *and* deploy "anything" appropriately when they're trying to intimidate someone?). Aviva is racist for referring to "the ghetto" (itself a slang term) vis-a-vis Heather's posturing, but Heather can break out the stereotypical associations of scully scaps at her leisure. The situational convenience with respect to this particular propensity of Heather's is part and parcel with her selective application of standards in general, and that's why - from my perspective - it garners more consistent attention than one perpetuation of casual racism by Dorinda.

[WireWrap]

I cannot lie.  I liked that dress. 

 

Heather really likes that silhouette.  We've seen her wear it to Carole's 50th, Lu's fashion show/luncheon, (both times in white) and to the reunion in pink.  Very proper, buttoned up, fit and flare. Very Mrs. Cleaver. Very Sandra Dee goes to the sock hop.  Which is interesting considering that Heather is about as far from a 50's housewife or a virginal teen queen as can be.  I think she might be putting her considerable marketing skills to work here to subliminally soften her edges in our minds.  How's that for a conspiracy theory?

It seems that the 50's look is back and Heather is not the only one wearing it. I just went to a wedding a couple of weeks ago and I bought  dress that was similar to those worn in the 50'/60' and there were a number of other women that had dress styles from that era as well.

[Mozelle]

I think that it's a faulty premise to contend that just because one critiques the certain behaviors of one housewife, they are somehow morally obligated to deconstruct the foibles of everyone. Posters have called Bethenny and Aviva racist for the language that each has employed to ridicule Heather's use of the urban vernacular; must those posters then also devote equal amounts of writing to weighing whether or not Heather's fetishization of UV constitutes cultural appropriation and/or even qualifies as fetishization? Also, while I find Dorinda's assumptions about the man in the restaurant to be suggestive of structural racism (and, really, the entire franchise is an exercise in institutionally problematic ideas about race with Andy segregating all of the black casts on their own programs; rarely casting any Hispanic or Latina women outside of Miami and then patting Brandi Glenville on the back after her bigoted hazing of Joyce; and expressing confusion about why "some white woman" was on the casting tape for Atlanta), I don't find a sole episode of misconduct on her part to be analogous at all to Heather's appointment of herself as the arbiter on racial propriety. If Dorinda had said, "I'm not racist for making baseless presumptions about a black man's profession, but everyone else *is* for making assumptions about my presumptions," that would be more comparable (in my personal subjective opinion, of course). Heather may note that she's from the Berkshires; she also says her lingo is "organic" even though she moves from proper grammar to dropping her 'g's and misusing "nothing" when she decides to curse (why can't gangstas theoretically both use slang terminology *and* deploy "anything" appropriately when they're trying to intimidate someone?). Aviva is racist for referring to "the ghetto" (itself a slang term) vis-a-vis Heather's posturing, but Heather can break out the stereotypical associations of scully scaps at her leisure. The situational convenience with respect to this particular propensity of Heather's is part and parcel with her selective application of standards in general, and that's why - from my perspective - it garners more consistent attention than one perpetuation of casual racism by Dorinda.

 

Isn't that exactly what is expected? At least that's been my reading of it in the latest episode thread as well as previous episode threads. But I'll continue to find it curious the amount of time (and number of words) devoted to Heather using "Holla!" that wasn't used to talk about Dorinda's assumptions of a Black man back when the incident happened. 

 

Also, it should be noted that Heather's use of "Holla!" was in her opening in her first season. It's been used in every opening since she joined the show giving it appearance of Heather actually using it more often than she truly has used it on the show itself. Additionally, Heather switches registers when speaking versus when upset? Well, isn't that how language works? I know that I tend to be more slang-y on the Blood, Sweat, and Heels forum than I am here (just like I switch when I'm on GroupMe with friends versus when I send a work email). I mean, I suppose she should only rely on $0.25 words when she's upset. Maybe even, instead of saying she's going to find her skully, take one of LuAnn's gloves and use it in her request for a duel at dawn. That'd be more dignified (and racially appropriate, maybe?).

 

And I'll need to be reminded when Heather designated herself the judge on racial issues? Was it that the reunion when she was asked about Aviva's comment? I didn't think Heather was wrong in her response to Andy.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Mozelle

[AnnaMayWong]

WOW! A gargantuan size 4. Really, Heather, really for use as model for shape wear. Ha!

And, Heather has the best "weave" on the show.

Edited June 8, 2015 by BookElitist

[motorcitymom65]

Isn't that exactly what is expected? At least that's been my reading of in the latest episode thread as well as previous episode threads. But I'll continue to find it curious the amount of time (and number of words) devoted to Heather using "Holla!" that wasn't used to talk about Dorinda's assumptions. 

 

Heather's use of "Holla!" was in her opening in her first season. It's been used in every opening since she joined the show  giving it appearance of Heather actually using it more often than she truly has used it on the show itself. Lastly, Heather switches registers when speaking versus when upset? Well, isn't that how language works? And I'll need to be reminded when Heather designated herself the judge on racial issues? Was it that the reunion when she was asked about Aviva's comment? I didn't think Heather was wrong in her response to Andy.

 

I mean, I suppose she should only rely on $0.25 words when she's upset. Maybe even, instead of saying she's going to find her skully, take one of LuAnn's gloves and use it in her request for a duel at dawn. That'd be more dignified.

Thank you. Is it surprising that one's choice of words changes with the circumstances? I talk one way to my family, another when I am making a presentation at work, or talking to an important client, and different entirely when I'm hanging with my girls (and yes, my 50-ish friends are my girls). Of course when I am emotional or angry, all bets are off and all kinds of things will come flying. Is this not usual for other people? When I visit my mother back in Oklahoma, she is constantly traumatized by how I speak since I moved outside of Detroit a dozen years ago. She thinks I sound "black", which to my mom is just about the most terrible thing a person could ever sound like, because we didn't know any "black folks" there (don't even get me started on what a racist this woman is). I don't even notice it, but my expressions and language have changed a lot since I lived in OK.  Luckily she still loves me, however. I hope Heather is as lucky, since it sounds like she has committed some type of atrocity. 

[breezy424]

I mean, I suppose she should only rely on $0.25 words when she's upset. Maybe even, instead of saying she's going to find her skully, take one of LuAnn's gloves and use it in her request for a duel at dawn. That'd be more dignified (and racially appropriate, maybe?).

 

 

OMG!  Best thought of the day!

[film noire]

Curiosity stays getting me, so I ventured into Dorinda's thread to see if all this critique about Heather saying "Holla!" and it being the worst form of cultural appropriation (evah!) this side of Iggy Azalea had somehow manifested itself into outrage over Dorinda assuming that a well-dressed Black man in a nice restaurant was the coat check employee.

 

It hadn't (and hasn't).

 

The commentary about that repulsive moment is in the episode thread -- I posted about it, and I wasn't the only one in the thread who did so -- and where did anybody say anything like "being the worst form of cultural appropriation (evah!) this side of Iggy Azalea" ??? 

Edited June 8, 2015 by film noire

[Mozelle]

I know you talked about in that thread, film noire. Which is why I very specifically said "one" here.

And folks have been going on about Heather and "holla" and cultural appropriation here and in last week's episode thread. It's been such a vigorous discussion, which is exactly why I made the Iggy* Azalea statement.

*My phone actually autocorrected this to "aight" if further proof of just how much I code switch is needed.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Mozelle

[AnnaMayWong]

Part of the expression of racism can be its sometimes subtleness and obliviousness. This obliviousness is then used to excuse the racist behavior. Whereupon, the recipient(individual or societal) has difficulty dealing with the more overt racist behavior AND difficulty illuminating the equally destructive "benign" action.

[film noire]

I know you talked about in that thread, film noire. Which is why I very specifically said "one" here.

And folks have been going on about Heather and "holla" and cultural appropriation here and in last week's episode thread. It's been such a vigorous discussion, which is exactly why I made the Iggy* Azalea statement.

*My phone actually autocorrected this to "aight" if further proof of just how much I code switch is needed.

 

You didn't say the discussion was as vigorous (fair enough, I guess?) you said people were treating Heather Holla (the new Bratz doll!) as if it were the worst form of cultural appropriation since Azalea   --  and even though I'm a fan of comic hyperbole,  that felt like an unfair slap at those of us who have a problem with Heather wearing another culture just to appear hip.

 

And I'm not sure the discussion here is served by you deciding to single out one unidentified poster as not meeting an ill-defined and highly personal standard for being allowed to find holla/skully/teach a bitch/etc objectionable,  based on whether they posted enough/at all/ whatever in another thread. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by film noire

[lunastartron]

Okay, so referencing scully caps - which are often stereotypically associated with hip-hop culture, gangs, and, thus, by extension, urban blacks - as a symbol of violence and intimidation is "racially appropriate" but invoking "ghetto" as an adjective or as a noun synonymous for the nexus of urban violence and strife is "ignorant" and "racist" (as Heather herself has selectively characterized the language of those other than herself)? And, no, Heather does not transition into different language when she's upset - at least not "organically," which is why her linguistic and vernacular shifts telegraph as contrived. She screamed at length and used proper grammar while cursing at Amanda before suddenly - and literally from one breath to the next - deciding to start breaking out the "nuttin'"s. And the sole instance of Dorinda's racial faux pas yielded page upon page of posts dissecting the incident in question. When Dorinda's structural racism becomes a pattern of practice like Heather's vocal tics, then perhaps she'll elicit more consistent posts satirizing that. Personally, I think some criticism mischaracterizes Heather's lingo ("mama" is more working-class Caucasian or Saved by the Bell to me than urban vernacular); however, I don't see anyone upthread describing her contrivances as "atrocities" or equating her with Iggy Azalea. Aviva got roasted by the other ladies and on this board for one phrase ("word on the street") used in a closed context. And that was because there is a superficial incongruity between a white, wealthy, blonde native of the Upper East Side deploying terminology that was popularized by urban culture some twenty odd years ago, around the time said wealthy white woman was matriculating at one of the toniest, WASPiest women's schools in America. Like Aviva, Heather is a rich, white, Jewish East Coaster who hails from overwhelmingly Caucasian environs and didn't work at Sean John until well into adulthood, and she uses urban vernacular a lot more often.

[WireWrap]

Okay, so referencing scully caps - which are often stereotypically associated with hip-hop culture, gangs, and, thus, by extension, urban blacks - as a symbol of violence and intimidation is "racially appropriate" but invoking "ghetto" as an adjective or as a noun synonymous for the nexus of urban violence and strife is "ignorant" and "racist" (as Heather herself has selectively characterized the language of those other than herself)? And, no, Heather does not transition into different language when she's upset - at least not "organically," which is why her linguistic and vernacular shifts telegraph as contrived. She screamed at length and used proper grammar while cursing at Amanda before suddenly - and literally from one breath to the next - deciding to start breaking out the "nuttin'"s. And the sole instance of Dorinda's racial faux pas yielded page upon page of posts dissecting the incident in question. When Dorinda's structural racism becomes a pattern of practice like Heather's vocal tics, then perhaps she'll elicit more consistent posts satirizing that. Personally, I think some criticism mischaracterizes Heather's lingo ("mama" is more working-class Caucasian or Saved by the Bell to me than urban vernacular); however, I don't see anyone upthread describing her contrivances as "atrocities" or equating her with Iggy Azalea. Aviva got roasted by the other ladies and on this board for one phrase ("word on the street") used in a closed context. And that was because there is a superficial incongruity between a white, wealthy, blonde native of the Upper East Side deploying terminology that was popularized by urban culture some twenty odd years ago, around the time said wealthy white woman was matriculating at one of the toniest, WASPiest women's schools in America. Like Aviva, Heather is a rich, white, Jewish East Coaster who hails from overwhelmingly Caucasian environs and didn't work at Sean John until well into adulthood, and she uses urban vernacular a lot more often.

 I never knew that terms/slang started by 1 group of people, from a different race, religion, ancestry, economical group or region of this country, were forbidden to be used/said by someone outside that group or they will be considered a racist! IMO, that keeps people apart, that way of thinking promotes division among people. I guess saying "Bless You Heart" by a northerner is just as bad then. LOL    Oh, and Heather is not Jewish, Jonathan is but she did not convert.

[film noire]

Okay, so referencing scully caps - which are often stereotypically associated with hip-hop culture, gangs, and, thus, by extension, urban blacks - as a symbol of violence and intimidation is "racially appropriate" but invoking "ghetto" as an adjective or as a noun synonymous for the nexus of urban violence and strife is "ignorant" and "racist" (as Heather herself has selectively characterized the language of those other than herself)?

(snipped only for space).

 

<applause>

[FaithsMum]

I dunno, maybe there's something wrong with me but while I find much of Heather's language cringe worthy, I don't find it to be offensive. Perhaps this is because I'm English so I a) consider it an "Americanism" rather than attribute it to a particular race/culture and b) because we do not have the same race "issues" that the US does.

FaithsDad is a British born Pakistani and unlike much of his family and their friends speaks English with an English accent. His parents complain that he "sounds and speaks like he's white" which, trust me, is an insult since they've yet to forgive him (or rather me for being some kind of femme fatale and leading him astray) for marrying a white woman because you "sleep with white women, you don't marry them" FYI. With that somewhat minor exception and not quite the same thing since his parents are just arseholes, I have never heard anyone here complain about cultural appropriation and I live in a town where 30% of the population is Asian and much of my extended family are Asian since my Grandad is of Pakistani origin. Sidenote: Asian in the UK generally means south Asian/middle eastern not Chinese, Japanese etc.

I guess, for me, the cultural differences/history between the UK and the US matters in this instance since I have a hard time thinking that Heather's choice of words is anything but eye rolling. If anyone could elaborate as to just why so many find it offensive, I'd be interested to read. :)

Edited June 8, 2015 by FaithsMum

[Mozelle]

I used the Iggy Azalea comparison for a very specific reason and I don't think I'm wrong in doing so. Heather's transgressions have been:

- using "motherfucker" in a heated argument. I was unaware that only folk who look like me used that when mad.

- dropping the "g" from "nothing" during that same argument.

- saying "holla!" once (but, as the editors would have it, gets repeated week after week for three seasons in the opening credits. This gives the impression that Heather says this all the time)

- using "mama"

I was harder on Dorinda and Aviva because what they did/said is that kind of slick shit that annoys me more than someone saying "holla" or "mama." Dorinda and Aviva were very casual about what they implied with their actions--Dorinda with her assumption that a well-dressed Black man wasn't a patron but there to serve her (and her story about slipping money to a man who she thought was homeless only made me wonder if that man happened to be Black as well); and Aviva with her "prison" comment (as well as Ramona with her "Where are we? 125th Street" nonsense) is exactly the kind of subtle comment that gives the Avivas and Dorindas and Ramonas an out. I don't have patience for it.

To close, I used the Iggy example because the discussion very much reminds me of discussions about Iggy. I find Iggy to be egregious and a no-talent hack whose metaphorical blackface is ridiculous and offensive. I don't see Heather that way in the slightest yet the discussions about her ("cultural appropriation" has actually been used) are of the Iggy ilk, to my mind.

*shrug*

[lunastartron]

FaithsMum (sorry, can't quote on my phone), to be clear, I, too, personally find Heather's linguistic appropriations to be more smirk-worthy and try-hard than inherently offensive. Although there are post that project the notion that she's committing "atrocities" onto the satirization of Heather's tics, I think most posters (though it's not like I conducted a study) just find her amusing and ripe for send-up. What I do find offensive - and I can only speak for myself here - are Heather's circular double standards: Aviva can't say "ghetto" but Heather can use "scully caps" as an implication/warning of violence and intimidation; likewise, although "ghetto" is verboten, Heather can say that the residents of said ghetto-that-should-not-be-called-a-ghetto will tear Aviva's leg off of her and beat her with it (so I guess what Heather is saying here is that urban black people are violent?). To answer your broader question about why so much import in invested in patois in America: language, like any pattern, is a cultural signifier for any community. There is a school of thought that the socially and racially privileged majority should not co-opt the customs or language of minorities because the socially and racially privileged have not lived the experience that yielded the customs and language of said minorities. This is the whole premise behind the reclamation of "n***a" and why white people are not entitled to deploy it even if black people utilize it. If Heather went to work on an Indian reservation at the same age she joined Sean John, for instance, it would be really rich and presumptuous to hear her talk about the "rez" or use "ayyye" as a colluquialism.

[FaithsMum]

I used the Iggy Azalea comparison for a very specific reason and I don't think I'm wrong in doing so. Heather's transgressions have been:

- using "motherfucker" in a heated argument. I was unaware that only folk who look like me used that when mad.

- dropping the "g" from "nothing" during that same argument.

- saying "holla!" once (but, as the editors would have it, gets repeated week after week for three seasons in the opening credits. This gives the impression that Heather says this all the time)

- using "mama"

I was harder on Dorinda and Aviva because what they did/said is that kind of slick shit that annoys me more than someone saying "holla" or "mama." Dorinda and Aviva were very casual about what they implied with their actions--Dorinda with her assumption that a well-dressed Black man wasn't a patron but there to serve her (and her story about slipping money to a man who she thought was homeless only made me wonder if that man happened to be Black as well); and Aviva with her "prison" comment (as well as Ramona with her "Where are we? 125th Street" nonsense) is exactly the kind of subtle comment that gives the Avivas and Dorindas and Ramonas an out. I don't have patience for it.

To close, I used the Iggy example because the discussion very much reminds me of discussions about Iggy. I find Iggy to be egregious and a no-talent hack whose metaphorical blackface is ridiculous and offensive. I don't see Heather that way in the slightest yet the discussions about her ("cultural appropriation" has actually been used) are of the Iggy ilk, to my mind.

*shrug*

Thank you for your explanation. I can see why you used Iggy as a comparison since I have read about cultural appropriation with regards to her so it did make sense to me and I agree that Heather is not on Iggy's level. I've heard exactly one Iggy song (and I have every intention of it remaining that way!) so I'll take your word for it that she's a no talent hack! :)

I drop the "g" all the time like everyone else with my accent, black or white - so I guess I don't see the big deal about that at all. Even if Heather doesn't do that ordinarily, when people are pissed they don't necessarily uphold the rules of proper language/grammar since their aim is to get shit off their chest, not sound as if they're a member of the royal family. Ditto "motherfucker."

I dislike Heather but I guess I find her language choices one of the least offensive things about her. However, despite my Pakistani grandfather and my Jewish bio father, I'm an upper middle class, blonde haired, blue eyed, white girl and so it's not for me to dictate what minorities should and shouldn't find offensive, you know?

Edited June 9, 2015 by FaithsMum

[AnnaMayWong]

I used the Iggy Azalea comparison for a very specific reason and I don't think I'm wrong in doing so. Heather's transgressions have been:

- using "motherfucker" in a heated argument. I was unaware that only folk who look like me used that when mad.

- dropping the "g" from "nothing" during that same argument.

- saying "holla!" once (but, as the editors would have it, gets repeated week after week for three seasons in the opening credits. This gives the impression that Heather says this all the time)

- using "mama"

I was harder on Dorinda and Aviva because what they did/said is that kind of slick shit that annoys me more than someone saying "holla" or "mama." Dorinda and Aviva were very casual about what they implied with their actions--Dorinda with her assumption that a well-dressed Black man wasn't a patron but there to serve her (and her story about slipping money to a man who she thought was homeless only made me wonder if that man happened to be Black as well); and Aviva with her "prison" comment (as well as Ramona with her "Where are we? 125th Street" nonsense) is exactly the kind of subtle comment that gives the Avivas and Dorindas and Ramonas an out. I don't have patience for it.

To close, I used the Iggy example because the discussion very much reminds me of discussions about Iggy. I find Iggy to be egregious and a no-talent hack whose metaphorical blackface is ridiculous and offensive. I don't see Heather that way in the slightest yet the discussions about her ("cultural appropriation" has actually been used) are of the Iggy ilk, to my mind.

*shrug*

[FaithsMum]

FaithsMum (sorry, can't quote on my phone), to be clear, I, too, personally find Heather's linguistic appropriations to be more smirk-worthy and try-hard than inherently offensive. Although there are post that project the notion that she's committing "atrocities" onto the satirization of Heather's tics, I think most posters (though it's not like I conducted a study) just find her amusing and ripe for send-up. What I do find offensive - and I can only speak for myself here - are Heather's circular double standards: Aviva can't say "ghetto" but Heather can use "scully caps" as an implication/warning of violence and intimidation; likewise, although "ghetto" is verboten, Heather can say that the residents of said ghetto-that-should-not-be-called-a-ghetto will tear Aviva's leg off of her and beat her with it (so I guess what Heather is saying here is that urban black people are violent?). To answer your broader question about why so much import in invested in patois in America: language, like any pattern, is a cultural signifier for any community. There is a school of thought that the socially and racially privileged majority should not co-opt the customs or language of minorities because the socially and racially privileged have not lived the experience that yielded the customs and language of said minorities. This is the whole premise behind the reclamation of "n***a" and why white people are not entitled to deploy it even if black people utilize it. If Heather went to work on an Indian reservation at the same age she joined Sean John, for instance, it would be really rich and presumptuous to hear her talk about the "rez" or use "ayyye" as a colluquialism.

Yes, that too is much more offensive to me too, and hypocritical. You cannot nail someone to a wall for something you're doing yourself since, even if you're right, you lose any moral highground you had. The thing is, they're all hypocrites. Not that I'm excusing Heather in any way (I'm not an apologist, I can't stand her) but they're all willing to be self righteous when it suits them.

Although I am familiar with the American usage of "ghetto" on my side of the pond it's associated with Nazi Germany and it took my stupid brain a while to get Aviva's implication.

Your explanation is very interesting as this is something I'm personally unfamiliar with and I think is a much bigger deal in the US. Thank you for taking the time to write it! :)

With regards to Heather, while its clearer to me why some find it offensive and I don't begrudge them that, I still think it's one of the least offensive things about her. I find it irritating at times but purely on an eye rolling and snarkable level than anything else because as you said, it's very try hard.

[motorcitymom65]

Thank you for your explanation. I can see why you used Iggy as a comparison since I have read about cultural appropriation with regards to her so it did make sense to me and I agree that Heather is not on Iggy's level. I've heard exactly one Iggy song (and I have every intention of it remaining that way!) so I'll take your word for it that she's a no talent hack! :)

I drop the "g" all the time like everyone else with my accent, black or white - so I guess I don't see the big deal about that at all. Even if Heather doesn't do that ordinarily, when people are pissed they don't necessarily uphold the rules of proper language/grammar since their aim is to get shit off their chest, not sound as if they're a member of the royal family. Ditto "motherfucker."

I dislike Heather but I guess I find her language choices one of the least offensive things about her. However, despite my Pakistani grandfather and my Jewish bio father, I'm an upper middle class, blonde haired, blue eyed, white girl and so it's not for me to dictate what minorities should and shouldn't find offensive, you know?

I don't agree about Heather - I like her quite a lot - but I must say I found your post beautiful.

[Crikey]

To answer your broader question about why so much import in invested in patois in America: language, like any pattern, is a cultural signifier for any community. There is a school of thought that the socially and racially privileged majority should not co-opt the customs or language of minorities because the socially and racially privileged have not lived the experience that yielded the customs and language of said minorities. 

I think Heather (and anyone else) should be able to use any customs or language she chooses, just the same as  minorities should and do use the language of the racially privileged, even though they,  minorities, have not experienced a racially privileged life.  Equality, what a concept!

Edited June 9, 2015 by Crikey

[AnnaMayWong]

I agree Mozelle. THIS is an exemplary example of SUBTLE differences in racism and sometimes it is difficult to explain. A distinct difference DOES exist between the comments/behavior/attitude of Dorinda/Aviva and Heather. And, minorities Do Not have a separate language. There is no language of the privileged in the good ole U S of A. This is ridiculous! One's speech (VOCABULARY, syntax, intonations, ..) have moorings in location (states, neighborhoods,...), family speech patterns, peers,...

Edited June 9, 2015 by BookElitist

[WireWrap]

FaithsMum (sorry, can't quote on my phone), to be clear, I, too, personally find Heather's linguistic appropriations to be more smirk-worthy and try-hard than inherently offensive. Although there are post that project the notion that she's committing "atrocities" onto the satirization of Heather's tics, I think most posters (though it's not like I conducted a study) just find her amusing and ripe for send-up. What I do find offensive - and I can only speak for myself here - are Heather's circular double standards: Aviva can't say "ghetto" but Heather can use "scully caps" as an implication/warning of violence and intimidation; likewise, although "ghetto" is verboten, Heather can say that the residents of said ghetto-that-should-not-be-called-a-ghetto will tear Aviva's leg off of her and beat her with it (so I guess what Heather is saying here is that urban black people are violent?). To answer your broader question about why so much import in invested in patois in America: language, like any pattern, is a cultural signifier for any community. There is a school of thought that the socially and racially privileged majority should not co-opt the customs or language of minorities because the socially and racially privileged have not lived the experience that yielded the customs and language of said minorities. This is the whole premise behind the reclamation of "n***a" and why white people are not entitled to deploy it even if black people utilize it. If Heather went to work on an Indian reservation at the same age she joined Sean John, for instance, it would be really rich and presumptuous to hear her talk about the "rez" or use "ayyye" as a colluquialism.

 Words like n.... and that ilk are offensive and they have never been heard coming from/being used by Heather and to say her use of Holla/Mama is similar is ridiculous IMO. Holla and Mama have never been considered racist, offensive or insensitive. JMO 

[Crikey]

.

Oh man. Not gonna touch this one.

  

I like flipping things to see if they are fair for everyone or fair for just one side.

[motorcitymom65]

I used the Iggy Azalea comparison for a very specific reason and I don't think I'm wrong in doing so. Heather's transgressions have been:

- using "motherfucker" in a heated argument. I was unaware that only folk who look like me used that when mad.

Mozelle, I don't know what you look like, but apparently I am using this word and am not supposed to. I apologize to whatever group owns this word. It bums me out because I was unaware of such rules, or that I had not earned the right. I wonder if I am offending whatever group it is that holds the rights to "cocksucker" which I have been known to throw around when it fits the situation. The most shocking thing is to learn that had Heather not been a white chick, her "motherfucker" would have been looked at differently by some. I see a huge difference in what Dorinda did, which I found shocking, and this other stuff.

[FaithsMum]

I don't agree about Heather - I like her quite a lot - but I must say I found your post beautiful.

Thank you! :) I've been thinking tonight (it's 1:30am, what else am I going to do?!) and while I've never been Heather's biggest fan, I loathe her this season. Anyway, I've come to the sad conclusion that while I would probably find her overbearing, if I didn't relate a lot to Bethenny right now, I'd hate her less and I'm somewhat projecting.

I'm every bit as fragile and brittle as Bethenny - anorexia, hospital, blah blah blah - and I have my own Heather's (although I love them!) who I sometimes feel are telling me what to do... And I respond much in the same way Bethenny does if I feel I'm being pressured and I'm uncomfortable. This isn't "normal" me but it is atm. The tiniest things stress me out and have me zero to defcon in about three seconds flat - I literally cried over spilt milk today. So I think I've got some projection issues because I can relate to Bethenny far more than I can Heather. :)

I don't think Heather is a "bad" person, or anything... And I could roll off ten housewives from various franchises who have committed far greater sins than Heather. I just find her overbearing and controlling. But as much as I can relate to Bethenny right now, I wouldn't want to be around her either since in a completely different way she exhausts me as much as Heather does (and I imagine I do my friends and family!) Human nature isn't so black and white and I'm sure Heather has many redeeming qualities which I'll get back to you with if I can find some... :) Seriously though, I think I'd rather have her as a mother than Bethenny. I believe B absolutely loves Bryn but that woman has a laundry list of neuroses and overall Heather appears to be much more well balanced and, well, stable.

[FaithsMum]

Mozelle, I don't know what you look like, but apparently I am using this word and am not supposed to. I apologize to whatever group owns this word. It bums me out because I was unaware of such rules, or that I had not earned the right. I wonder if I am offending whatever group it is that holds the rights to "cocksucker" which I have been known to throw around when it fits the situation. The most shocking thing is to learn that had Heather not been a white chick, her "motherfucker" would have been looked at differently by some. I see a huge difference in what Dorinda did, which I found shocking, and this other stuff.

Unless I've misinterpreted I read that as Mozelle being tongue in cheek. It could potentially be an English thing since we put sarcasm in the water here and that's how I took it, not that Mozelle feels Heather is wrong using "motherfucker." :)

[motorcitymom65]

Thank you! :) I've been thinking tonight (it's 1:30am, what else am I going to do?!) and while I've never been Heather's biggest fan, I loathe her this season. Anyway, I've come to the sad conclusion that while I would probably find her overbearing, if I didn't relate a lot to Bethenny right now, I'd hate her less and I'm somewhat projecting.

I'm every bit as fragile and brittle as Bethenny - anorexia, hospital, blah blah blah - and I have my own Heather's (although I love them!) who I sometimes feel are telling me what to do... And I respond much in the same way Bethenny does if I feel I'm being pressured and I'm uncomfortable. This isn't "normal" me but it is atm. The tiniest things stress me out and have me zero to defcon in about three seconds flat - I literally cried over spilt milk today. So I think I've got some projection issues because I can relate to Bethenny far more than I can Heather. :)

I don't think Heather is a "bad" person, or anything... And I could roll off ten housewives from various franchises who have committed far greater sins than Heather. I just find her overbearing and controlling. But as much as I can relate to Bethenny right now, I wouldn't want to be around her either since in a completely different way she exhausts me as much as Heather does (and I imagine I do my friends and family!) Human nature isn't so black and white and I'm sure Heather has many redeeming qualities which I'll get back to you with if I can find some... :) Seriously though, I think I'd rather have her as a mother than Bethenny. I believe B absolutely loves Bryn but that woman has a laundry list of neuroses and overall Heather appears to be much more well balanced and, well, stable.

FaithsMum, i have thought about you quite a bit since you shared some of your personal struggles with us on the BH forum. I hope you find peace and good health. You bring a very interesting perspective to these forums. Your girls are lucky to have someone so thoughtful to call "mommy".

It is my fiercest hope that you find something to like about Heather, but many others have not. I agree about the mommy thing with Heather, although I have zero doubt that Beth is a great mom as well.

[motorcitymom65]

Unless I've misinterpreted I read that as Mozelle being tongue in cheek. It could potentially be an English thing since we put sarcasm in the water here and that's how I took it, not that Mozelle feels Heather is wrong using "motherfucker." :)

Oh, I hope that Mozelle gets that!

[AnnaMayWong]

Exactly, motorcitymom65.

Edited June 9, 2015 by BookElitist

[FaithsMum]

FaithsMum, i have thought about you quite a bit since you shared some of your personal struggles with us on the BH forum. I hope you find peace and good health. You bring a very interesting perspective to these forums. Your girls are lucky to have someone so thoughtful to call "mommy".

It is my fiercest hope that you find something to like about Heather, but many others have not. I agree about the mommy thing with Heather, although I have zero doubt that Beth is a great mom as well.

Thank you, everyone here is so lovely and you keep me company at night and away from the crazy places my brain takes me to! Although FaithsDad doesn't exactly consider my in depth analysis of the Housewives makes me a beacon of sanity either! :)

Oh, I'm open to finding something about Heather to like if I see it. I think that's unlikely this season though since Heather's only screen time appears to be when she's going at it with someone. I found LuAnn insufferable for four seasons and now she's one of my favourites so I'm adaptable! One of my favourite things about this forum is the differing perspectives and other posts seeing something I didn't which can change how I view a scene/housewife.

I too don't doubt Bethenny is a good mum and is trying to give Bryn the stability and love she did not have but give me overbearing Heather any day.

Oh, I thought of something! I do admire the way she takes Jax's health in her stride; that she's not a crying wreck. She just deals and is like "ok, so we'll go do X and Y." I think that is admirable and though we don't see much of her with her kids, she is likely a wonderful mother overall.

Edited June 9, 2015 by FaithsMum

[SCS]

. Even if Heather doesn't do that ordinarily, when people are pissed they don't necessarily uphold the rules of proper language/grammar since their aim is to get shit off their chest, not sound as if they're a member of the royal family. Ditto "motherfucker."

Word on the street is QE2 flips her tiara for a scully when she and Phillip are in the moment. ;} The Countess is not amused.

[Mozelle]

Hmmm. Do I read as English/British? That's interesting. I'm Black American, though. Well, to be more specific, I'm a daughter of West African immigrants but was born and raised in the U.S.

There are myriad reasons why I claim Black American as well as Black African, but I do fully move between both worlds, I think.

That said, I'm gonna pack it up for the night. Good night!

[film noire]

 

I used the Iggy Azalea comparison for a very specific reason and I don't think I'm wrong in doing so. Heather's transgressions have been:

 

(snipped only for space)

 

 

 

She doesn't just say "holla" and "mama",  she has defended the usage as part of her cultural tradition/birthright/whatever:

 

“Holla’ and ‘mama’ are part of my heritage. I’ve been using those terms for as long as I can remember."

 

http://www.realitytea.com/2015/05/22/heather-thomson-defends-catchphrases-thinks-luann-butt-caroles-relationship/

 

And to your list, I'd add in using phrases like  “I'm going to go put my skully on so that bitch knows who she's fucking with” only in situations related to rage or attempts to intimidate -- but Molly McAleer  says it better than I can:

 

"You did not grow up around people who say things like, “you may wanna check yo’self” so it seems like a stretch when this kind of language exits your mouth.....When you’re lunching or in a meeting, you may toss in the occasional “that’s right, sista!” but for the most part, you speak like an educated white woman from an upper middle class background. When you’re crying in the doctor’s office about your son’s health—and that cannot be easy—there’s not a “you know what mama’s talkin’ about!” in sight. You conduct yourself as though you have a full and proper grasp of the English language and do not put on what you clearly perceive to be some sort of “gangsta” persona.

 

And here’s why it really needs to stop: The only time you go into full “you best shut your mouth”-mode is when you feel like you’re being attacked or when you want to attack which implies to me that you associate people who say things like, “don’t mother fuckin’ tell me nothin’.” as dangerous people. And I don’t know about your country club, but none of the wealthy middle-aged white women I’ve met go there when feeling the need to defend themselves.

 

It just makes who you are attempting to emulate look bad. We get it, you’ve worked with rappers, and you were a big name over at Sean John. The world knows that’s why you think you have some kind of “ghetto pass” and it’s not cute. You and the world would be better for your responses sounding something more like, “I don’t appreciate the way you’re speaking about my friend and I will not tolerate it.”

http://thoughtcatalog.com/molly-mcaleer/2014/07/open-letter-heather-thomson-you-are-not-a-rapper-from-2001/

Edited June 9, 2015 by film noire

[Rahul]

 

Guys, maybe this is what Heather means by "holla" and the person doing the captioning has it all wrong?

 

I've seen her referred to as Challah Heather on some other recap sites. I think I might just starting calling her Challah or Holla myself from now on.

[WireWrap]

She doesn't just say "holla" and "mama",  she has defended the usage as part of her cultural tradition/birthright/whatever:

 

“Holla’ and ‘mama’ are part of my heritage. I’ve been using those terms for as long as I can remember."

 

http://www.realitytea.com/2015/05/22/heather-thomson-defends-catchphrases-thinks-luann-butt-caroles-relationship/

 

And to your list, I'd add in using phrases like  “I'm going to go put my skully on so that bitch knows who she's fucking with” only in situations related to rage or attempts to intimidate -- but Molly McAleer  says it better than I can:

 

"You did not grow up around people who say things like, “you may wanna check yo’self” so it seems like a stretch when this kind of language exits your mouth.....When you’re lunching or in a meeting, you may toss in the occasional “that’s right, sista!” but for the most part, you speak like an educated white woman from an upper middle class background. When you’re crying in the doctor’s office about your son’s health—and that cannot be easy—there’s not a “you know what mama’s talkin’ about!” in sight. You conduct yourself as though you have a full and proper grasp of the English language and do not put on what you clearly perceive to be some sort of “gangsta” persona.

 

And here’s why it really needs to stop: The only time you go into full “you best shut your mouth”-mode is when you feel like you’re being attacked or when you want to attack which implies to me that you associate people who say things like, “don’t mother fuckin’ tell me nothin’.” as dangerous people. And I don’t know about your country club, but none of the wealthy middle-aged white women I’ve met go there when feeling the need to defend themselves.

 

It just makes who you are attempting to emulate look bad. We get it, you’ve worked with rappers, and you were a big name over at Sean John. The world knows that’s why you think you have some kind of “ghetto pass” and it’s not cute. You and the world would be better for your responses sounding something more like, “I don’t appreciate the way you’re speaking about my friend and I will not tolerate it.”

http://thoughtcatalog.com/molly-mcaleer/2014/07/open-letter-heather-thomson-you-are-not-a-rapper-from-2001/

What do you/we know about Heathers childhood, her parents and their economic status? Nothing as far I could find. Also, the word "holla" has been around since the 1500 century, it is Middle French origin......http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/holla

[breezy424]

She doesn't just say "holla" and "mama",  she has defended the usage as part of her cultural tradition/birthright/whatever:

 

“Holla’ and ‘mama’ are part of my heritage. I’ve been using those terms for as long as I can remember."

 

http://www.realitytea.com/2015/05/22/heather-thomson-defends-catchphrases-thinks-luann-butt-caroles-relationship/

 

And to your list, I'd add in using phrases like  “I'm going to go put my skully on so that bitch knows who she's fucking with” only in situations related to rage or attempts to intimidate -- but Molly McAleer  says it better than I can:

 

"You did not grow up around people who say things like, “you may wanna check yo’self” so it seems like a stretch when this kind of language exits your mouth.....When you’re lunching or in a meeting, you may toss in the occasional “that’s right, sista!” but for the most part, you speak like an educated white woman from an upper middle class background. When you’re crying in the doctor’s office about your son’s health—and that cannot be easy—there’s not a “you know what mama’s talkin’ about!” in sight. You conduct yourself as though you have a full and proper grasp of the English language and do not put on what you clearly perceive to be some sort of “gangsta” persona.

 

And here’s why it really needs to stop: The only time you go into full “you best shut your mouth”-mode is when you feel like you’re being attacked or when you want to attack which implies to me that you associate people who say things like, “don’t mother fuckin’ tell me nothin’.” as dangerous people. And I don’t know about your country club, but none of the wealthy middle-aged white women I’ve met go there when feeling the need to defend themselves.

 

It just makes who you are attempting to emulate look bad. We get it, you’ve worked with rappers, and you were a big name over at Sean John. The world knows that’s why you think you have some kind of “ghetto pass” and it’s not cute. You and the world would be better for your responses sounding something more like, “I don’t appreciate the way you’re speaking about my friend and I will not tolerate it.”

http://thoughtcatalog.com/molly-mcaleer/2014/07/open-letter-heather-thomson-you-are-not-a-rapper-from-2001/

 

Well, everyone's entitled to their opinion but how does Molly McAleer  "know" how Heather grew up and who she hung out with.  And Heather has stated she was barely middle class.  Sure, she can talk like an educated wealthy middle class white women.  What, black women or women of any race can't do that too?  If we're going down the race road....that could be called racist.  BTW, since we're on the road, Oprah is the queen of transitioning back between wealthy and I was born in the South dirt poor accent.

 

I didn't realize that there's a rule on talking once you reach country club status.  She or anyone else here doesn't have to like it but she certainly has the right to.  There is no law nor is there any ghetto pass.

[Rahul]

I was woefully mistaken. Heather hasn't been appropriating other cultures, but rather harking back to her Jewish heritage with the Challah usage the entire time. All that simple carb deprivation must mean bread is on her mind 24/7. 

[WireWrap]

I was woefully mistaken. Heather hasn't been appropriating other cultures, but rather harking back to her Jewish heritage with the Challah usage the entire time. All that simple carb deprivation must mean bread is on her mind 24/7. 

Heather is not Jewish, Jonathan is. Heater did not convert.

[Rahul]

I seem to recall a moment in season one where Heather referenced her nose saying, "You don't get a shnozz like this without being Italian and Jewish." However, in retrospect I may have conflated Heather Thomson with Cheslea Peretti.

[WireWrap]

I seem to recall a moment in season one where Heather referenced her nose saying, "You don't get a shnozz like this without being Italian and Jewish." However, in retrospect I may have conflated Heather Thomson with Cheslea Peretti.

Heathers first season she talked about this on the show. Although she took the classes needed to convert, she had not done it and both she and Jonathan were fine with how things stood.

[lunastartron]

We know that Heather hails from a town upstate in which the population is overwhelmingly white. If we're going to parse the details that we *don't* know about these housewives, I think we need to extend an equal-opportunity, "how do you know Aviva is directly familiar with how people in prison and/or 'the ghetto' talk, her lily-white pedigree notwithstanding?" It's selective in my view to contend that Aviva's equation of certain linguistic signifiers with the prison population is all kinds of problematic yet Heather's constant association of urban vernacular with violence and intimidation isn't. Heather herself said that the residents of the "ghetto" were going to literally rip Aviva's leg off and bust her up with it if she used said terminology in the manner of neighborhood in question. Heather herself thus a) polices language and b) suggests that urban minorities are inherently threatening and prone to perpetrating assault. Invoking "scully" caps - which, as I previously noted, are stereotypically associated with hip-hop culture and thus urban blacks - as a forewarning that someone should be fearful of her isn't relying on symbolism that casts urban minorities as malevolent? So, if I'm interpreting all of this correctly, Heather conflating signifiers of urban culture with rage, fury, and lack of impulse control for the occasions when she finds it convenient to intimidate others is cool, yet Ramona taking the association Heather telegraphs in the way in which is was intended (equating urban minorities with threats) is reflective of bigotry?

[breezy424]

We know that Heather hails from a town upstate in which the population is overwhelmingly white. If we're going to parse the details that we *don't* know about these housewives, I think we need to extend an equal-opportunity, "how do you know Aviva is directly familiar with how people in prison and/or 'the ghetto' talk, her lily-white pedigree notwithstanding?" It's selective in my view to contend that Aviva's equation of certain linguistic signifiers with the prison population is all kinds of problematic yet Heather's constant association of urban vernacular with violence and intimidation isn't. Heather herself said that the residents of the "ghetto" were going to literally rip Aviva's leg off and bust her up with it if she used said terminology in the manner of neighborhood in question. Heather herself thus a) polices language and b) suggests that urban minorities are inherently threatening and prone to perpetrating assault. Invoking "scully" caps - which, as I previously noted, are stereotypically associated with hip-hop culture and thus urban blacks - as a forewarning that someone should be fearful of her isn't relying on symbolism that casts urban minorities as malevolent? So, if I'm interpreting all of this correctly, Heather conflating signifiers of urban culture with rage, fury, and lack of impulse control for the occasions when she finds it convenient to intimidate others is cool, yet Ramona taking the association Heather telegraphs in the way in which is was intended (equating urban minorities with threats) is reflective of bigotry?

When did Heather say that - Heather herself said that the residents of the "ghetto" were going to literally rip Aviva's leg off and bust her up with it if she used said terminology in the manner of neighborhood in question.  Not being sarcastic or anything else.   Just would like to know.

[lunastartron]

I remember she wrote it in one of her final blogs of the season last year. Probably (I'm assuming) the one related to the part of the reunion in which Aviva used "ghetto." Don't recall if that was part 2 or 3.

[WireWrap]

I remember she wrote it in one of her final blogs of the season last year. Probably (I'm assuming) the one related to the part of the reunion in which Aviva used "ghetto." Don't recall if that was part 2 or 3.

Yes Heather did say that in response to Aviva calling her "ghetto" and "gangster". From Heathers blog, second episode of the reunion.

 

"Now onto foul ignorance... Ghetto? Gangster? Really? Are you referring to race or a socio-economic situation? Nice, Aviva, you ignorant cow. I think it is actually easy for this sedated narcissist to label me ghetto because I stood up for my friend. Sadly, she wouldn't know what that feels like. I would NEVER get physical with anyone no matter how pushed I am (remember her minion she tried to sic on me?), but I WILL use the strongest language when defending what I believe is right. My upbringing was barely middle class, and I make no apologies for that. My mother raised my sister and me with very little help, and I am very proud of my upbringing and my mother, especially as I reflect back on what she gave us as I raise two children of my own.

From both my parents and grandparents, I was taught strong values and ethics and I was given the tools to build a moral code that money can't buy or sell. I was taught the value of hard work and the importance of good manners, but most importantly, I was taught to stand up for my beliefs and the value of honesty. I believe my success in business now is attributable to the lessons my mother taught me growing up. Aviva needs a mirror and she needs to open her eyes and look into it. Start there, girl. It's never too late! I am a woman and I am allowed in 2014 to be as strong as anyone without being labeled. And what's more, you wouldn't last a day in the ghetto, Drescher. Just a few words out of your snobby mouth and they'd likely take off that fancy leg of yours and beat your sorry, elitist, ignorant ass with it. Holla!"

[film noire]

She's appropriating African American Vernacular English when she's angry and wants to put on a show to intimidate other people. The author is questioning *when* she chooses to use AAVE because it seems to imply that Heather has stereotyped views of black people (angry, prone to violence, etc). Oprah is black, so I don't see the problem with her using AAVE. That's my interpretation. I don't have a dog in this fight so I will respectfully bow out of this topic.

 

..I am applauding your response as you bow out..:)

[Mozelle]

Except that she isn't.

The goal posts keep moving, it seems. Now Heather is appropriating BVE when she's angry? However, well before this discussion took a turn, she was being made fun of for "Holla!" and "Mama," neither of which have been said in anger. At all. Well (like, welllllll) before last week's preview where she talks about getting her skully, Heather was being criticized for so-called cultural appropriation, and a large part (if not the sole part) of that was certain people making fun of her for saying "motherfucker" while mixing it up with Mindy Lou Who.

Look, I switch between BVE and so-called standard English depending on which friends I'm chatting with. No one is going to convince me that "motherfucker" is the domain of BVE. Just...no. So no, moving goal posts because the other examples don't hold up? Yeah, a good way to get me to bow out of this discussion. I'm really over it.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Mozelle

[ryebread]

And what's more, you wouldn't last a day in the ghetto, Drescher. Just a few words out of your snobby mouth and they'd likely take off that fancy leg of yours and beat your sorry, elitist, ignorant ass with it. Holla!"

Ugh. I forgot about that. So much for "Holla!" being a "form of positive reinforcement". Jauntily using it after a sentence like that shows me that this is not a nice person. She is hostile and aggressive to the core.

So what Heather's saying is: if Aviva opens her ignorant mouth in the ghetto, she will be beaten. Lucky she lives on the UES where she will be called an ignorant cow and they'll call it a day. I see.

FaithsMum, you were looking for something to like about Heather. May as well move it along. There's nothing to see here.