S09.E01: I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here

[catrox14]

The CW is re-airing s9 from the beginning starting tonight . I thought I'd post an episode thread here, if anyone is planning to watch again.

 

Sorry I got the title wrong. It should be "I Think I'm Gonna Like it Here"

Edited May 27, 2014 by catrox14

[SueB]

I rewatched.  The Dean at the start of this season versus the Dean at the end is a shocking difference.  And it's so telling that the voiceover from Charlie is that there is nothing the Winchesters can't do when they work together.  Combined with "Who Do You Love" as the song.  ANVILS! 

 

I think Crowley stinking it up in that trunk is when he started planning revenge. 

[ElleryAnne]

Combined with "Who Do You Love" as the song.  ANVILS!

 

 

*smacks own head*  I didn't even make that connection!  But that song will be in my head for a week now.

[SueB]

Thinking some more on the season opening montage, they foreshadowed the major theme of the season big time.  We ended S8 with 'hugging it out in a church' but it wasn't really resolved.  So S9 just broke apart the Winchesters and put the brotherly love into question.  No wonder it ended in complete disaster.  Makes me REALLY curious for what happens in the S10 opening montage. 

[catrox14]

Watched this last night. I didn't like it much because I'm completely confused by Sam's head!canon  here.

 

I don't believe for one minute that Death would ever deign to say that he was honored to reap a Winchester.  He looks at humans as nothing more than bacteria. Also, Death didn't eat whilst he was there. Death ALWAYS eats.  So my thinking is if Death was not real here, then is Sam saying in his own mind that he thinks he's just that great that Death would be honored to reap the likes of Sam Winchester?  Or was this some kind of other result from the trials? 

 

Bobby trying to convince Sam to come to accept death seems highly unlikely because Bobby would want Sam to fight,  I would think.

 

"If we can't figure out how to keep it from happening, then maybe it's supposed to happen".  Say what, Sam?  How do you arrive at that conclusion? You have always kept fighting until you figure out a way, it's the Winchester way, even in their darkest moments.  And he sees Dean as abusing him because he wants Sam to live?  RUHRRRR? 

 

What the heck is up with Sam's noggin here?

 

IMO none of that made any sense to me from Sam's perspective given that he agreed to go ahead and stop the trials to live this is what his mind is telling him about dying. 

 

It would make more sense if this was Metatron or GadZekes manipulation of Sam's mind to confuse him. Then Dean is just trying to save his brother, so when GadZeke offers aid, what he shows Dean might not even have ever really been Sam's actual head!canon. I do not understand ANY of that.

 

This probably made no sense, but I blame it on the episode.  My head hurts. I need coffee.

[ElleryAnne]

Bobby trying to convince Sam to come to accept death seems highly unlikely because Bobby would want Sam to fight,  I would think.

 

 

Yeah, Sam's Bobby-voice telling him to just die and consider his life a job well done was a bit off, and so was that whole part of the episode, IMO.   It seemed like it should have been a dichotomy in Sam's head with a Dean-voice telling Sam to live and the other voice (only Bobby by default) telling him to give in to the idea of dying.  

 

But then Dean was really in Sam's head, so the Bobby side of the equation didn't work.  (And I'm probably not even doing a good job explaining what I'm thinking with that.)  Anyway, I wanted to think it was all just representing Sam's mind sorting out what he wanted to do, but it didn't quite fly.  Ditto the presence of Death, who I agree wouldn't think of a Winchester as any more special than a mosquito.  Just inconsistent writing and characterization.  

 

And now my head hurts, too.  Thanks, catrox14! ;P

[catrox14]

I could live with it being poor writing and poor characterization for this ONE episode.  But they kind of built the entire season on Sam's apparent re-engaged death wish and Dean's violation of  Sam's agency regarding Sam's apparent re-engaged death wish by allowing NotEzekiel to possess Sam which destroys the boys relationship for most of the season leading to.....well every other terrible thing.

 

And it's all based on what exactly?  Sam's faulty head!canon?  This is really annoying me more than it should.

[2Old2BAFangirl]

All the stuff in Sam's head did Sam no favors, IMO.  It made him look so arrogant and conceited to me, I remember growling at Sam when I initially rewatched it back in October and last night was no different.  Why would they write Sam that way?!  Did they want me to think he was that arrogant?  Did they want me to not like him even more than I already didn't like him? 

 

It started off okay, talking with his Head!Dean about fighting to live and the plan to make it happen.  Then Bobby appeared and it all went to shit, IMO.  Head!Bobby snapping at Dean about him not doing anything to rescue him from Hell?  What?!  If not for Dean asking Benny to go to Purgatory to rescue Sam, how exactly would Sam have gotten Bobby's soul to Heaven?  Wouldn't he have been trapped in Purgatory for however long?  And this is what Sam believes in his head?

 

Head!Bobby continued with the hero worship stuff when he talked about how Sam saved the whole world, how he had done so much good and was leaving the world a better place, how he was leaving a legacy.  Wow, no self-esteem issues there.  And this is what Sam believes in his head?

 

Then enter Death.  He had to attend to this soul in person.  It was his honor to reap the soul of Sam Winchester.  And this is what Sam believes in his head?

 

I don't understand what the writers were going for here?   Is it because I'm more of a DeanGirl that I interpret these scenes this way? I don't want to not like Sam but this kind of stuff doesn't help me like him again.  What am I missing?

[Julia]

I didn't quite get this one. I thought one of the major issues of the apocalypse story was that the angels couldn't make you their agent without your consent. Not, as they had it here, opt out - willing opt in. I'm not sure how it got to the point of Dean making a decision.

[catrox14]

It wasn't clear but I thought GadZeke mind melded with Sam and Dean so Dean could appear to Sam and talk to him and ask Sam to consent and Sam said yes.

[7kstar]

I'm not sure even the writers know what they wanted here.  But if the goal was to make everyone hate Sam after trying to get people to feel sorry for him last year...well it worked???

 

NOT! 

 

It made me really upset with the writing and I'm not sure how much I will like this season on rewatch.  There are some ideas that really work but a lot of it, just fast forward.

 

I think they were patting themselves on the back for figuring out how to get Death and Bobby back and to throw everyone off.  But it didn't work, because I doubt anyone was really shocked about the final this season.  I just hope we are finally done with selfish Sam and we can get the Sam that drew me to the show in the first place.  I want the brothers back!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DittyDotDot]

Bobby trying to convince Sam to come to accept death seems highly unlikely because Bobby would want Sam to fight,  I would think.

 

Yeah, I was totally thrown by this as well. I was thinking that instead of Bobby, either Jessica or Mary would have been a better choice to play the voice of acceptance. All the Sam's head stuff was way over-played and mostly nonsensical. I remember thinking that they were trying to redo In My Time Of Dying, but with Sam coming to terms with dying only to be jerked back at the last second. I also remember thinking, I don't think they know why In My Time Of Dying worked.

[Guest]

Dean is frantic after Sam collapses and the doctor tells Dean his brother won't make it. Desperate, Dean sends out an all points bulletin via prayer to every angel in the area, asking them to help his brother. In exchange, Dean will owe that angel a favor. Numerous angry angels race to find and kill Dean, but one, Ezekiel, gets to him first. Meanwhile, Sam fights for his life and must face some familiar demons to do so. Castiel struggles to survive without powers.

 

[catrox14]

Yeah, I was totally thrown by this as well. I was thinking that instead of Bobby, either Jessica or Mary would have been a better choice to play the voice of acceptance. All the Sam's head stuff was way over-played and mostly nonsensical. I remember thinking that they were trying to redo In My Time Of Dying, but with Sam coming to terms with dying only to be jerked back at the last second. I also remember thinking, I don't think they know why In My Time Of Dying worked.

 

If they would have had a different reaper (because Death itself would be all like, fuck these guys, I have bigger fish to fry) taking Sam on that same road it would have made more sense.

[DittyDotDot]

Part of the reason In My Time Of Dying works so well is it's the first death, so the idea of Dean finally accepting it because the alternative was far worse was much more powerful. Plus, Dean knew he had been brought back and his asshole-of-a-father was gone because of him. The whole thing had weight. By this time Sam has died  and been brought back so many times that it just carries no weight. He should have been an old hat at dying by now, there really is nothing to come to terms with or ponder. Add to it that he doesn't even know what happened and has nothing to grapple with, no consequences that he can deal with--I don't know, but this episode just feels like masterbation, to me.

 

Dean's story here also annoys me because he just feels rather out of character since Carver took over. This is the Dean from S1 and S2--hastily making deals and acting on impulse. I just felt like they really wanted to have an angel inside of Sam and fill the oppressive angst quota, that they didn't really figure out how to make this happen organically. So much of it feels forced to me.

 

I would have rather they had Sam fully understand what was happening and accept the angel. It would have set up so much better story and would have made Sam an active participant in his possesion. Sam and Dean could have been proactively working together throughout the first half of the season rather than the pathetic secrets and lies that in the end kept them from being proactive and really moving forward against the angels and/or demons. Plus, they could have still had Gadreel lying to them to have them end up in the same place without the oppressive brotherly angst. Gadreel could have still killed Kevin and Dean could have still taken on the MoC. They didn't need to break the boys up to get Dean to accept the Mark of Cain, Dean's always been willing to step up to the plate and accept the hard work. But they could have had Dean be more enlightend to the effects of the Mark--again, he could have been proactive in his story rather than the story happening to him.

 

Oops, I just realized I was meandering again and this might be better suited in the All Season's thread. I'll stop now.

Edited May 29, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[ElleryAnne]

I would have rather they had Sam fully understand what was happening and accept the angel. It would have set up so much better story and would have made Sam an active participant in his possesion. Sam and Dean could have been proactively working together throughout the first half of the season

 

 

That really would have been... much, much better than what they actually did in this episode.  So much better.

[catrox14]

I didn't think it was particularly reckless like the Dean of s1 and s2 for a few reasons.

 

He did try to pray to Cas who couldn't help nor even hear him, (which I don't understand because he could hear Angel Radio so why couldn't he hear Dean's prayer. Was that because his grace was gone?) Since Cas didn't answer he sent out the APB to all the angels and was confronted with the angel that was going to kill him until notEzekiel showed up and saved Dean's life. Dean still didn't trust him so he used the ring of fire to interrogate notEzekiel to figure out if he could trust him. Cas calls and confirmed that he knew Ezekiel and that Ezekiel could be trusted and even then Dean was like "Eh Sam I don't think Sam is going to agree to this" so notEzekiel did the mind trick thing to have Dean appear to Sam.  So I don't think it was quite in the same vein as the other choices. He did as much due diligence as he could given that notEzekiel was playing him and he had no way of knowing it and that Sam was slowly slipping away....( I think). 

Edited May 29, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I'm in no way saying that I thought Dean should throw up his hands, walk away and let Sam die--just wanted to get that out of the way--I'm saying the way he did it seemed out of character to me. I don't think Dean would have lied to Sam and made the decision without Sam's input. This is basically what Dean did in S2--although he at least bargained his own soul and not Sam's--and even then Sam told him he shouldn't have done it. But Dean learned that this was a very bad thing and that they should stop doing stuff like this. It always ends bloody and with a lot of other folks dead. In S6, Dean seemed to accept "life is short, and ours is shorter than most." Also, I think he stopped making these kinds of decisions for Sam back in S5 when he realized Sam wasn't a little kid anymore and could make his own decisions. 

 

The only time Dean's done something like this since was when he made that deal with Death to put get Sam's soul back. But I would argue that Sam wasn't really around to have input at that juncture so Dean did what he felt he needed to in-order to keep SoulessSam from hurting innocent people--it was less about saving Sam and more about protecting folks, IMO. Even when Sam was dying from the stupid Hell pain, Dean wasn't running around desperate just to save his little brother. He made calls and tried to help Sam as best he could, but also was aware that he might have to accept the inevitablity of the situation. In the end it led to finding Cas, but he was still wary of Cas and what Cas would do. I appreciate that time was short and Cas vouched for the guy, but it just feels like he was a lost little kid and made the decision out of desperation.

 

And, I could have swallowed him just making the decision and then coming clean after the danger passed, but he continued to lie to Sam and make one impulsive decision after the next and falling farther down that rabbit hole--which is what I think Dean of S1 or S2 would do, but not the Dean of S5, S6 or S7. I do agree its not to the same degree as it was in S1 or S2, but still not the Dean I had come to know since. 

 

It's not just this episode, but the way he was written most of the season. The way he did nothing proactively to find a way to have an edge over Gadreel if/when things went south. He allowed an angel to possess his brother and trusted that he was a good guy based on the recommendation of Cas and then allowed that same angel to kick Cas to the curb. That alone should have raised flags that he needed to be wary. That spell (which we've never heard nary a word of since) that Kevin found to depower an angel was in a MoL book, something Dean should have found months earlier. I just have a hard time lining up this Dean with the Dean that planned a fake text to his own brother "just in case he needed it" last season.

 

Sorry, meandering once again...

[rue721]

Guys, I don't know if I can deal with the music. The awkward, constant faux!orchestral music. WHAT IS THAT?! I guess it's cheaper but couldn't they just hire a guitarist or something? Or is this a Netflix thing and secretly, the show was playing awesome music but they've since lost the rights?

 

ETA:

 

Bobby trying to convince Sam to come to accept death seems highly unlikely because Bobby would want Sam to fight,  I would think.

 

Yeah, Bobby became a ghost because he couldn't do the whole "dying" thing. I doubt he'd be telling Sam to just give up already.

 

I'll just go with the theory that Sam was delusional and illogical because his brain was literally fried, as per the doctor who said he had a lot of brain damage. Because nothing that goes on in his head makes any sense.

 

ETA II:

 

Was that actually Dean in Sam's head convincing him to live (at the end, when Dean told Death to butt out and was saying extremely uncomfortable things imo, like "if there's no you, there's no me")? I think it had to be him for real because he was saying such personal stuff? But then it's even stranger that when Dean said he had a way to fix things, as long as he had Sam's permission to do it, Sam didn't ask what that way was before giving the permission and Dean didn't explain at all. Dean was the one who was saying like five seconds earlier that it was Sam's choice, so why not actually offer him the choice? And why didn't Sam ask what the choice even was?

 

When this episode aired, I remember actually liking it pretty well. Or being pleasantly surprised at least. But it's true that it makes no sense if you actually think about it for a minute, which also makes a lot of the plot of S9 fall apart. I think I was just distracted by Tahmoh Penikett and willing to accept virtually any justification for having him on screen.

Edited December 17, 2014 by rue721

[supposebly]

 

But Dean learned that this was a very bad thing and that they should stop doing stuff like this.

 

As with the Winchesters and Bobby: When it comes to this stuff, they talk the talk but that's about it. Sam tried to make a deal with Crowley to get Dean back at the end of S9 too. Bobby became a ghost although he knew better. He kept his undead wife around although he knew better.

I'm not taking them seriously anymore when it comes to resurrections until the show ends. They've been hypocrites for so long. I thought about it the other day when skipping through the latest werewolf episode. The sister had to die because she killed. But apparently, that does not apply to demon Dean or soulless Sam. And, no, the excuse "they're not themselves" doesn't apply because that also applies to werwolf sister.

 

Actually, Dean being so passive about it all in season 9 worked for me. He's done it again, he felt superguilty, probably somewhat of a hypocrite, there was probably a smidgen there that said, if I don't have to tell Sam, then he won't get pissed at me. And he must have realized that this was probably the worst he could have done to Sam considering their history, Sam's general lack of control over his life and previous possessions.

Also, he didn't have much time away from Gadreel, so any irregular research would probably have raised Gadreel's hackles. And he probably felt guilty enough not to tell Kevin. He didn't even when he asked him to do reserach on angel possession. He really should have, also for Kevin's protection. Kevin could have easily told Sam what he was doing and then he would have been dead even earlier.

 

He was kind of in a blackmail situation. Blackmailed by Gadreel, his own guilt and his need not to be without Sam.

 

He could have told Cas though. Cas has enough of his own guilt. But then, Dean forgives easily and never considers others to be as guilty as himself. He's got such a martyr complex.

[rue721]

Actually, Dean being so passive about it all in season 9 worked for me. He's done it again, he felt superguilty, probably somewhat of a hypocrite, there was probably a smidgen there that said, if I don't have to tell Sam, then he won't get pissed at me. And he must have realized that this was probably the worst he could have done to Sam considering their history, Sam's general lack of control over his life and previous possessions.

 

He knew it was bad, but I think he thought that he'd just be in the doghouse for it. Plus, once he'd vetted "Ezekiel," he didn't seem to think he was taking a huge risk, he just seemed to think it was a messed up situation.

 

So Dean goes into Sam's head to say that he has a way to save him and all he needs is for Sam to say yes, so Sam (very trustingly) says yes -- how would Dean even know at that point that Sam actually was ready to die? Dean didn't spell out the plan, but he told Sam that he was going to save him, and Sam was apparently OK with that? And was OK with whatever plan that was, without it even occurring to Sam to ask what it was, I guess? Idk, the first time around, I did find this to be a huge betrayal, but watching this episode again, I'm mostly like -- wait, WHAT was the betrayal? Just the lie of omission as to what exactly the plan was for saving Sam?

 

 

As with the Winchesters and Bobby: When it comes to this stuff, they talk the talk but that's about it. Sam tried to make a deal with Crowley to get Dean back at the end of S9 too. Bobby became a ghost although he knew better. He kept his undead wife around although he knew better.

 

I'm not taking them seriously anymore when it comes to resurrections until the show ends. They've been hypocrites for so long.

 

IA, of course they shouldn't be taken seriously. We've seen like 200+ victims-of-the-week so far and how many have become hunters as a result of their experience of the supernatural? Not even a handful? People that become hunters are already bizarre and have some kind of NEVER AGAIN! complex about being taken out by the supernatural *even as* they put their lives in constant danger at the hands of the supernatural. They *are* different from other people or else they would have picked up the pieces of their lives and not become hunters in the first place imo. I don't really get it, but I kind of expect them to be defiant in some kind of quasi-self-defeating way, because apparently that's how the responded to *some* event in their lives or else they wouldn't have become hunters in the first place. "Defiant in some kind of quasi-self-defeating way," such as, Bobby being killed during a heroic bid to save the world, only to flee his reaper and become a ghost.

[supposebly]

 

how would Dean even know at that point that Sam actually was ready to die?

 

Well, when he told Sam at the end of season 8 that the trials would kill him, Sam went: So? Then there was the purifying thing, which, although rather fever addled should have been a clue. It's not just Dean who helps saving the world knowing it can cost him his life, they both do. It's just Dean who doesn't accept that when it's Sam.

The betrayal?

I would say not telling him what the means of saving him constitutes a huge betrayal of Sam's trust considering that Sam would have said no to angel possession, even if it had been a "nice" angel. There is a reason Dean didn't tell him and that was it.

[catrox14]

Well, when he told Sam at the end of season 8 that the trials would kill him, Sam went: So? Then there was the purifying thing, which, although rather fever addled should have been a clue. It's not just Dean who helps saving the world knowing it can cost him his life, they both do. It's just Dean who doesn't accept that when it's Sam.

Sam was fever addled either way. He chose not to continue the trials after he said "so" and he ran out of the church with Dean. So at that point Dean fully believed Sam wanted to live. Why should Dean have not been believed it to be true then and when Sam was in the coma?

The betrayal?

I would say not telling him what the means of saving him constitutes a huge betrayal of Sam's trust considering that Sam would have said no to angel possession, even if it had been a "nice" angel. There is a reason Dean didn't tell him and that was it.[/quote

The moment Ezekiel said okay I'm out and we going to leave Sam to die, Dean's pathological need to keep Sam alive kicked in and outweighed anything else. Right or wrong.

Edited December 19, 2014 by catrox14

[rue721]

Sam was fever addled either way. He chose not to continue the trials after he said "so" and he ran out of the church with Dean. So at that point Dean fully believed Sam wanted to live. Why should Dean have not been believed it to be true then and when Sam was in the coma?

 

Yeah, Dean's whole argument to Sam in the church was basically "don't leave me!" with some other justifications for why that would be good for the world, too, thrown in. And Sam said yes to that. Then, when Dean went into Sam's head and said he had a plan to save Sam as long as Sam said yes, Sam said yes again. So what would make Dean think that Sam wanted to die?

 

I do think it's a betrayal that he didn't tell Sam that Sam would have to be possessed in order to save his life (though personally, I'm not actually that sure that Sam would have given that a hard no, considering that he was apparently willing to say yes to anything else, including vaguely referred to miracle-producing plans, but that's neither here nor there at this point probably). Back when I saw this originally that didn't feel as "no big deal" as it does now, but that's probably because originally, I had the a whole summer hiatus before the S9 premiere to make the events from S8 all fuzzy in my memory, whereas on re-watch I basically watched them back to back. I think it *was* meant to be a huge betrayal, though. Guess I'll just roll with it.

 

Something else that pisses me off about how the S8 finale and S9 mesh, though, is that I thought that Sam's whole arc over S8 was to become willing to not make the most rational choice, and to keep himself in the game in order to stay loyal to his brother. Then in the freaking premiere of the next season, all of that is undone? They're back at square one and Sam is ready to abandon Dean and their work *again*? Or they're at worse than square one, because now there's been this betrayal to wedge them apart, too?

[catrox14]

I think the main problem with the idea of betrayal here is that some of the audience didn't think it was a betrayal but more that it was a violation of Sam's agency. IMO Soulless Sam letting Dean be vamped was far worse violation of agency for far worse reasons.

Here it seemed to me that Dean was doing it out of brotherly/parental love/attachment as unhealthy as it is, but not because he wanted to see what happened. IMO that was bound to engender sympathy for Dean's predicament as the parent part of him could not let his 'son' die. Couple that with Dean working from the last bit of knowledge and overall perspective that no way did Sam really want to die and it leaves me with not being sure how I exactly feel about it. I kept thinking "no no no Dean...what are you doing whilst simultaneously thinking there is no way Dean can let him die". I just couldn't hate Dean for his actions. I can't say that I might not have done the same thing given everything being equal with Dean having vetted Ezekiel as being a good angel that would help.

[DittyDotDot]

rue721, on 20 Dec 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:rue721, on 20 Dec 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

Yeah, Dean's whole argument to Sam in the church was basically "don't leave me!" with some other justifications for why that would be good for the world, too, thrown in. And Sam said yes to that. Then, when Dean went into Sam's head and said he had a plan to save Sam as long as Sam said yes, Sam said yes again. So what would make Dean think that Sam wanted to die?

 

I don't think Sam "wanted" to die. Sam wasn't suicidal, IMO, just accepting the inevitability of the situation and The-Angel-Who-Calles-Himself-Ezekiel showed that moment in Sam's head to Dean. So, Dean was aware of Sam's choice to move on. Dean says Sam would never agree to be possessed, so he was aware what he was doing was something Sam wouldn't have wanted and he did it anyway. To me, it's like a family member ignoring someone's request to not want to live via machines or in a coma just because they don't want to accept losing someone they love. Just because it wasn't a formal DNR, doesn't mean Dean didn't know Sam's wishes here.

 

However, I don't fault Dean in trying to find a way to save Sam--that's what they do, right? I fault Dean with lying to Sam after the fact

and continuing to lie to Sam for months to come

when there was no real need to, IMO. Yeah, The-Angel-That-Calls-Himself-Ezekiel said he would vacate Sam, but I think that was the point to say it was Sam's choice to make. But what would Supernatural be without unnecessary lies and secrets, right? Oh, yeah, I also found it hinky Dean just trusted The-Angel-Who-Calles-Himself-Ezekiel. Dean's never trusted Castiel as much as he trusted him, IMO. 

And the moment he throws that little caveat of keeping Sam in the dark should've been a red herring to Dean, IMO, not to mention the many other things he had Dean believing and doing over the coming months. That was the moment I was sure The-Angel-Who-Calls-Himself-Ezekiel was working his own objective and nothing good was probably going to come out of this, in the end.

More forcing characters where they don't organically belong, if you ask me, which I realize you didn't.

Edited December 20, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[supposebly]

 

I think the main problem with the idea of betrayal here is that some of the audience didn't think it was a betrayal but more that it was a violation of Sam's agency.

How can that be separated? The fact that he took away Sam's agency and went against everything he knows Sam would want is the betrayal of Sam's infinite trust in his big brother.

[catrox14]

I don't think Sam "wanted" to die. Sam wasn't suicidal, IMO, just accepting the inevitability of the situation and The-Angel-Who-Calles-Himself-Ezekiel showed that moment in Sam's head to Dean. So, Dean was aware of Sam's choice to move on. Dean says Sam would never agree to be possessed, so he was aware what he was doing was something Sam wouldn't have wanted and he did it anyway. To me, it's like a family member ignoring someone's request to not want to live via machines or in a coma just because they don't want to accept losing someone they love. Just because it wasn't a formal DNR, doesn't mean Dean didn't know Sam's wishes here.

 

I decided to rewatch the episode last night because of this discussion. 

 

My unpopular opinion remains that I don't think what Dean did was the worst thing ever. It was bad for sure but going back and rewatching it a few times, leaves me still unsure that Sam was really ready to die or had accepted that he would die.  There is a lot to unpack here (I hate that phrase by the way) so if you bug out I understand LOL.

 

I think my use of "wanting" to die is not the right word per se.  IMO, this was akin to Dean deciding he would say yes to Michael. Was he anymore suicidal than Sam was for doing the trials?  I don't think Dean really did want to die , but he had given up finding another way and was convinced Sam was eventually going to say yes anyway and had resigned himself to his fate. ( Of course I still think maybe it was a bit of a ruse on Dean's part but I can't prove it)...

 

Sam then locked up Dean to stop him from going to Michael and ending his life by saying yes to Michael essentially taking that decision away from Dean. Yes, eventually, Sam relented because he decided to have faith that Dean would not say yes. Was that the right thing for Sam to have done in the first place?  Who knows but Sam didn't want Dean to die and thought Dean was making the wrong choice so he intervened. But Dean was not dying and the angel wouldn't have possessed Dean as an act of good will or to save Dean's life.  So it's not a perfect analogy but I think the idea of agency is still at work.

 

Here, Dean never saw Sam's decision-making coma brain tripping through chats with coma!Bobby and coma!Dean nor the arrival of coma!Death because he was busy being nearly beaten to death in the hallways of  the hospital by vengeful angels trying to find Castiel. Once he zapped the angels to wherever, the alarms were going off in Sam's room and Ezekiel was sitting there saying it's probably too late. Dean is bloody and bruised and emotionally distraught on top of everything else. Essentially Dean was making a life saving/altering decision under extraordinary duress.

 

And to me the following bolded part is key to why Dean ultimately makes the decision he does compounded with parent!Dean not being able to watch his "son" die.

 

Dean said "There is no way in Hell he'd agree to be possessed by anything. "

Ezekiel: "He would rather die". 

 

The 'rather die' IMO is different than Sam saying he is ready to accept death. I feel like that is a specific word choice. It's Ezekiel saying that Sam WANTS to die vs being possessed by an angel to cure him. And good lord, kudos to Jensen for some brilliant work here.  As soon as Ezekiel says "He would rather die" , you can see the confusion and decision process all over Dean's face and he's totally flummoxed. Like I see on Dean's face the words "rather die" sinking in and rejects that and he really doesn't know what to do.

 

Dean then says "You gotta prove to me how bad he is" .

 

When Ezekiel did the first mind meld thing all Dean saw was the conversation with coma!Death saying it was a honor to reap the likes of Sam Winchester. Then Dean sees Sam say "IF I go with you, you promise me this time it will be final. That if I'm dead, I stay dead. Nobody can reverse it, nobody can deal it away...and nobody else can get hurt because of me." 

 

Why is Sam even saying "nobody else can get hurt because of me". To me that is Sam's own guilt trip informing his own probably faulty coma brain decision making and that maybe he's thinking he deserves to die vs being ready to accept impending, inevitable death. IMO that's why Dean says 'What the hell are you doing, Sam" .

 

Ezekiel pops Dean out of Sam's head and they discuss how it would work. Ezekiel says "Mutual benefit I suppose. Sam heals as I heal. promises to leave Sam once they are both healed and that it's the best of a bad situation. Dean knows Sam would never say yes to Ezekiel and Ezekiel says 'He would say yes to you." Cut to Cas and the other angel.

 

When it cuts back to Dean, he's already popped back into the middle of Sam's coma!Death conversation. Now at this point I'm still not clear if that was really Dean speaking to coma!Sam or if that was Ezekiel wearing Dean's meatsuit and using Dean's memories to say what he thinks Sam will accept or if that was really Dean's brain being transmitted to Sam's brain. Dean saying "There ain't no me if there ain't no you...." seems really extreme even for Dean.  So I'm not 100% convinced that was Dean and not Ezekiel. But I just don't know. And how Jensen played it also didn't seem like 100% Dean to me either.  But regardless the dialogue still left the decision ultimately with Sam. He didn't know the plan but he agreed to go along with Dean.  For me it was the ongoing deception after the fact based on Sam having an angelic pacemaker that was IMO where Dean really went wrong.

 

Ugh. I still don't get the point of that happening at all except to spoilers

maneuver Dean into a place of desperation that he would accept the MoC without understanding what was going on.

[DittyDotDot]

Whether Dean knew Sam was willing to be possessed of even if Dean knew Sam was willing to die, is kinda immaterial here, IMO--Dean never gave Sam the chance to choose for himself. I realize time was short and there was not time for explaining it to Sam when they were in the hospital. However, Dean didn't give Sam a chance to make the decision for himself even after the crisis was abated and they could've taken a moment to discuss their options. The entire reason The-Angel-Who-Calls-Himself-Ezekiel says they need to lie to him is because Sam could eject him at anytime--which is some real bullshit anyway, if you ask me--Dean continues to lie about it because he knows Sam might choose to not be possessed and Dean doesn't want to deal with that eventuality. 

 

Was it the worst thing Dean could ever do? I don't know, I'm sure that all depends on your own life experiences and your own perspective. Again, I don't have personal outrage about what Dean did--I love the little ball of guilt--I think he was trying, in his own way, to do right by his brother even if he did do it kinda wrong, in the end. But I also can understand where Sam was coming from later in the season. I'm generally of the opinion Neither Sam or Dean is exactly right or wrong in any given situation, just different people who see things differently.

 

I'd argue that Dean saying yes to Michael wasn't really the same situation. Dean's decision to say yes to Michael wasn't only his decision to be made. He was making a unilateral decision that could have repercussions for the whole world, not just Dean. If he wanted to go shoot himself in the head and be done with it, that would've been a decision about Dean and Sam would've had to come to terms with that. But, Sam's main reason for stopping him from saying "yes" to Michael was more about trying to save the world than saving Dean himself. And it wasn't just Sam dictating it all and making all the decisions, it was the whole group trying to stop Dean from doing something they thought would be dangerous for everyone. And most importantly, Sam wasn't lying and allowed Dean to make his own choice in the matter and chose his own course of action because of Dean's choice. He didn't rob Dean of the choice, just asked him to make a different choice in the end.

Edited December 20, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

I don't think Sam "wanted" to die. Sam wasn't suicidal, IMO, just accepting the inevitability of the situation and The-Angel-Who-Calles-Himself-Ezekiel showed that moment in Sam's head to Dean. So, Dean was aware of Sam's choice to move on. Dean says Sam would never agree to be possessed, so he was aware what he was doing was something Sam wouldn't have wanted and he did it anyway. To me, it's like a family member ignoring someone's request to not want to live via machines or in a coma just because they don't want to accept losing someone they love. Just because it wasn't a formal DNR, doesn't mean Dean didn't know Sam's wishes here.

 

But that's exactly it, Dean had very strong reason to believe that Sam didn't *want* to die, since Sam was willing to quit the Trials and keep Hell open in order to live, and when head!Dean (or Ezekiel?) showed up and said he had a plan for Sam to live, Sam said yes to it before even asking what the plan was. I don't think that Dean thought for a second that Sam would want to die, it's that he thought Sam wouldn't be able to agree to being possessed.

 

So then Dean did what Dean *always* does, which is to tell himself he's taking the burden off of Sam by doing the dirty work that Sam can't do himself. Just like when Sam "couldn't" kill Amy, so Dean went back and killed her himself. Sam "couldn't" say yes to being possessed by an angel in order to live, so Dean said yes for him. I *do* think that's massively obnoxious and what would frustrate me in Sam's place would be that not only is Dean running roughshod over Sam's wishes, but he's then justifying going against Sam's wishes by he's telling himself it's what Sam would want or do if Sam could -- rather than just accepting responsibility for his own actions or being real that he's doing these things because it's what *he* wants to do or what *he* thinks is best, not because it's actually what Sam wants or what Sam thinks is best.

 

How can that be separated? The fact that he took away Sam's agency and went against everything he knows Sam would want is the betrayal of Sam's infinite trust in his big brother.

 

Does Sam have infinite trust in Dean? He shouldn't! How does he not know, this late in the game, that Dean is not rational as far as Sam is concerned?

 

Dean said "There is no way in Hell he'd agree to be possessed by anything. "

Ezekiel: "He would rather die". 

 

The 'rather die' IMO is different than Sam saying he is ready to accept death. I feel like that is a specific word choice. 

 

[...]

 

But regardless the dialogue still left the decision ultimately with Sam. He didn't know the plan but he agreed to go along with Dean.  For me it was the ongoing deception after the fact based on Sam having an angelic pacemaker that was IMO where Dean really went wrong.

 

Yeah, the reason why I'm a little "pffft!" about the decision for Ezekiel to possess Sam is that Sam *did* say yes to ~whatever~ plan before even hearing what it was. What was even the trick? Even though theoretically Sam would have had qualms about the possession plan in particular, in practice, he was apparently willing to do anything, as long as he was reasonably assured that it would work. It's still a lie of omission and a betrayal, but I don't know if it's really such an assault on Sam's agency since Sam did weirdly give his consent to ~whatever~ beforehand. I think the bigger deal was that Sam then wasn't given a chance to reevaluate later, once it was already happening, but that wasn't just on Dean. 

 

Dean didn't even want to keep it a secret for *that* long, he was saying that he thought it was a very big secret to keep. But then Ezekiel scared him by saying that Sam would eject him and then die. I think that was Ezekiel's paranoia (of what would happen if he were ejected) fanning the flames of Dean's paranoia (of what would happen if Sam died) and then both deciding to do terrible things as a result of that fear. They kind of brought out the worst in each other, I guess.

[DittyDotDot]

But that's exactly it, Dean had very strong reason to believe that Sam didn't *want* to die, since Sam was willing to quit the Trials and keep Hell open in order to live, and when head!Dean (or Ezekiel?) showed up and said he had a plan for Sam to live, Sam said yes to it before even asking what the plan was. I don't think that Dean thought for a second that Sam would want to die, it's that he thought Sam wouldn't be able to agree to being possessed.

 

But after Sam quit the trials he lapsed into a coma where he hallucinated and decided he was okay with it being over. Dean saw the moment Sam said he would go with Death as long as nobody else got hurt--Ezekiel showed him that moment--and Dean's response was "what are you doing Sam". Seems pretty clear he knew that Sam was about to go to the great beyond of his own free will. But as I stated in my later post I don't even think this matters nor is it where Dean went wrong, IMO, but I won't repeat myself about that.

 

Dean didn't even want to keep it a secret for *that* long, he was saying that he thought it was a very big secret to keep. But then Ezekiel scared him by saying that Sam would eject him and then die. I think that was Ezekiel's paranoia (of what would happen if he were ejected) fanning the flames of Dean's paranoia (of what would happen if Sam died) and then both deciding to do terrible things as a result of that fear. They kind of brought out the worst in each other, I guess.

 

I'm sorry, I just can't give Dean a pass on the lying simply because he didn't want to and he felt bad about it. Also, because an angel told him to lie, is not really a valid excuse either, IMO. Especially for a 35-year-old person who should know better.

 

 

Yeah, the reason why I'm a little "pffft!" about the decision for Ezekiel to possess Sam is that Sam *did* say yes to ~whatever~ plan before even hearing what it was. What was even the trick?

 

I don't know that I'd call it a "trick" exactly, but I think the fact that Sam trusted Dean to be doing right by him made him readily agree to the plan without knowing all the details. And I'd also bet he trusted that Dean would let him know what the plan was so they could be in it together. Maybe Sam is entirely too gullible and shouldn't trust Dean at all and should ask fore everything to be in writing before he agrees to anything Dean proposes?

[catrox14]

Here's what I don't understand.  Why was Sam asking Dean what he should do if Sam's agency is at stake both in the church and here. That seems to mitigate the violation of Sam's agency to some degree if he's still looking to Dean for an answer and for Dean to tell him what to do and essentially save him. I can't fathom why Sam would ever expect Dean to say "Okay, Sam. You're right. Go ahead and die now" . 

 

Bleh. This stupid episode.

[DittyDotDot]

If Sam had been given all the facts and chose to die instead of being possessed, yes, I do think Sam expected Dean to respect him enough to make his own decisions.   Maybe Sam would've chose to live and accept the angel's help here? We will never know because he was never given the opportunity to speak his own mind here. 

 

However, I also don't think Dean was all that concerned with Sam's happiness here either. For me, Dean's decision was far less about Sam, IMO, and far more about Dean not wanting to feel like he failed, once again. That's where Dean went wrong, IMO. He really didn't consider what Sam's wishes would be in this situation, but instead acted on his own wants and desires, IMO. He simply didn't want Sam to die regardless of what the consequences might be.

Edited December 21, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

Seems pretty clear he knew that Sam was about to go to the great beyond of his own free will.

 

He was willing to die rather than fight to live, but that didn't mean he wouldn't have wanted someone to fight *for* him to live. It's one thing to say that you aren't going to fight to make something happen and another to say that you wouldn't want ~someone~ to make it happen.

 

This isn't how Sam is in particular, but it's actually really normal imo for someone to say that they don't "want" something just because they don't think they're capable of doing it themselves or because they don't want to do it themselves -- but the implied request is for you to do it for them. And even though I don't think Sam is actually trying to communicate that, I think that's how Dean reads it a lot of the time when Sam says he doesn't "want" something, which is why afterward when the chips are really down, Dean's always like, "be real, though, I just did your dirty work for you!" That's also happened with Amy imo.

 

I guess the other thing irl about an implied request for you to take care of whatever-it-is, is that if you don't take care of it, you're going to be in trouble with the other person for not doing it afterward *and* they'll probably be up shit creek themselves because of this essential thing not getting taken care of, so there's not really a way to refuse the request in good conscience. I think that also fits how Dean deals with what he's seeing as implied requests, like he's just "got" to fulfill them.

 

I don't think that has to do with age or knowing better or anything, that's just how some families work. Apparently that's how Dean assumes his does. The idea is apparently not even occurring to Sam, though -- he's not on the same page about it, in any case.

 

Which is actually why I find it hilarious/frustrating that Sam is almost always oblivious when Dean is hinting about something or isn't asking for something outright because he thinks it's self-evident that it's necessary or that the subtext is obvious. Sam is very literal imo and the show has been unusually consistent about that. So it's pretty hit-or-miss if it'll even occur to him that subtext is there, let alone what it is, I think.

 

I do think that Dean wanted Sam to live for his own reasons. He pleaded for Sam to quit the Trials for almost purely selfish reasons imo. But I also don't think he entirely understood that Sam:  1. didn't think that that it was fishy that Dean wasn't telling him what the plan was and that there actually wasn't any mutually understood subtext to it, Sam just straight up trusted Dean 100% 2. Sam actually was fine with dying, it wasn't that he just didn't want to have to or didn't think he could save himself.

 

Personally, I don't think it's strange that he wouldn't have understood those things because I would think that #1 would be difficult for him to wrap his mind around, seeing as he doesn't trust Sam like that or communicate so straightforwardly like that himself, and #2 would be basically mind blowing for him because especially in that situation, he himself was so desperate for Sam not to die.

 

Not to excuse him, it was still disrespectful to the max, but that's why I personally wasn't surprised or figured that Dean was ever going to go in a different direction.

 

Maybe Sam is entirely too gullible and shouldn't trust Dean at all and should ask fore everything to be in writing before he agrees to anything Dean proposes?

 

When it comes to Dean's plans for saving Sam's life? DAMN STRAIGHT SAM SHOULD. This is the man who already sold his soul for Sam's life, he lost his right to make unquestioned, unexplained, unilateral decisions about what's worth sacrificing so that Sam will survive when he did that imo.

 

Sam is a relatively trusting person in general, though, so I'm not shocked that he would just trust Dean. Dean pretty regularly tricks Sam or hides things from Sam to "protect" him in smaller ways or for his own convenience, plus Dean clearly thinks that bullshitting is just a normal aspect of communication, so you'd think Sam would have his guard up a little more in general that what Dean is saying isn't necessarily what he means or that he's not telling the whole story -- but for whatever reason, he doesn't. Anyway, so I'm not blaming Sam for being trusting because apparently that's just how he is when it comes to Dean, but if he's going to be that trusting then he's also got to expect that people (including Dean) are sometimes going to be doing stuff he doesn't like but he's going to be too far out of the loop to stop it.

 

Thinking about it, if Sam is hoping that his brother will ever trust him the way that he trusts Dean, then he should just accept right now that that's not possible. In theory, anything could happen, and this show will yank the characters into whatever position they want I guess, but either you're capable of trusting like that or you're not imo, and Sam is and Dean isn't.

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, Jeremy Carver, when did turn into a teenage girl writing fan fic? "There's no me without you"...really? Oy vey!

 

I have so many issues with this episode's throughline and logic, but a lot of it is just set dressing that I could normally ignore if Sam and Dean feel like Sam and Dean. But since that wasn't the case, I'll go on a little tare here.

 

They want to take a break and have Sam come to terms with dying, fine, then why didn't they do that? It just feels like they didn't know how Sam would feel about dying so they crammed in a whole bunch of other random stuff that didn't actually make a lot of sense fill the time. In the end, I kinda wish they'd done like they did at the beginning of S5--God put 'em on a plane and dried Sam out--and moved on. Easy peesy, right? And, what's with the floaty car scenes? I mean, I get it, it was all in Sam's fever-addled noggin; and they weren't really diving anywhere, but why so obvious and on the nose? Also, why was everything Sam needed to move on to the other side enclosed in a cabin in the woods? Seriously, do they even know who Sam is? We've already beaten the other nonsense in Sam's head to death, so I won't retread on that.

 

Why'd the angels blow out the windows and glass at the hospital? The only time I remember that happening before was with Cass before he had a vessel. These guys all had vessels and were supposed to be wingless to boot. Just seemed a bit of overkill, to me. Oh, and I'd actually like to know where the outfield is. Yeah, I know it doesn't matter, but can't help my mind from wandering with an episode like this. While I'm on the angel nonsense, why do you suppose Cass can hear angel radio, but not Dean's prayers? Seems a rather convenient plot contrivance to me.

 

Cass's story is the only thing that interested me seems to actually interest me in this episode. Becoming human and needing to try and help fix the mess he made--I find it compelling.  Yeah, I know, they basically drop it later, but for a little while they had me with this storyline. At the very least I think it was nice that Cass got to get out of those smelly clothes he'd been wearing for the last 5-ish years. And, I'm so relieved he got some water to help soothe that sore throat of his. ;)

[GirlyGeek]

I try so hard, really so very hard, to like Sam.  I really do.
But then the writers go and make him so unlikable!  Sam of Season 8 was mostly unlikable.  Now, Sam's head cannon is all crazy!  His Head!Dean is a screaming, pushy, douche nagging him into wanting to live?!  His Head!Bobby says to move on with your death, you've done enough, and snarks at Dean about not doing anything to save them in Purgatory?  His Head!Death practically fanboys all over Sam in hero worship?  

Um, no.  And so weird that I can't even really comment on what this means for Sam's character or whether or not he would have chosen to live, because, really, that's not Sam.  

 

So, I go back to an hour earlier, in the church when Sam chooses to live.  He stops the trials, bands together with Dean's speechifying and let's kick ass *together* plan, and he chooses to not.die.
So, I think Sam would have wanted to live.  I also am not sure what Sam would have said about being temporarily possessed by an angel in order to save him.  I really don't know.  A demon possession... hell no.  An angel?  One that was vouched for by Castiel (despite how that turns out)?  I give it a solid... he might go along with it if it were the only means.

 

But Dean didn't give him the choice because he was afraid Sam would choose to say 'no'.  And that wasn't right.  Was it the most awful thing either brother has ever done to the other, ha ha absolutely not.  But it wasn't cool.

 

Because this is a fictional show, that deals with stuff we'd never have to deal with in our real lives, I have a method for categorizing their choices, morally, in my brain.  Because I can't say whether its right to make a crossroads deal; sell your soul; deal with the devil or demons in order to save an innocent; etc.  
My way of figuring this out is:  was it malicious?  was it intended to hurt the other?  what was the ultimate goal?

Dean didn't make the deal with 'Ezekiel' in order to hurt Sam; he didn't do it to take his choices away- an hour earlier Sam chose to live!  He wanted to save his brother, and we all know Dean will save Sam at every turn.  He's unequivocally told Sam this on numerous occasions.  He also didn't save Sam's life purely for selfish reasons (or to not be alone).  Is it part of it... probably.
I can't fault him for that, even if he goes about it wrong sometimes or takes it farther than most would.  They're in a world where deals and soul-selling and possessions and angels can fix the problems they run into.  If those things were available to you or I, I'm sure the moral line would be very grey.

 Anyway, all that doesn't change the fact that I liked some parts of this episode, but not being able to understand Sam's head here doesn't help me, especially after Season 8's train wreck.  

Edited April 13, 2015 by GirlyGeek

[catrox14]

I love your post GirlyGeek. I love your methodology of moral reasoning.  You've said how I've thought about this episode for well ever. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Finally on to Season 9!  I'm hoping it won't be the slog that S8 turned out to be.

• They did fake me out with the car ride at first.  Knew something was wonky when the angle started tilting.
• So Sam has massive internal burns?  Was that the 'purifying' part there, Sam?   Fire is supposed to refine.  And how did that work out for you?
• As many times as they've already died and come back, part of me was a little surprised that Dean was so worried.
• I really liked the guy who picked up Cas.  So glad he wasn't a bad guy or got killed.  I'd like to see more of him.
• So if Bobby and headDean were all in Sam's head - and were therefore part of Sam - then that means that part of Sam really wanted to just let go and die.  But what about like he said earlier about the only reason he stopped the trials was to live?  That doesn't make sense at all.  The writers wanted it both ways, and it just doesn't work.  If Sam was so ready to die anyway, why not go ahead and finish the trials and close the gates of Hell?  Ah now, THAT would have been a legacy...
• I gotta say though, Sam picked a real pretty spot to have his conversation about dying with headBobby.
• Cas lost his grace and can't hear Dean's prayers but can still hear angel radio.  But I thought Dean's prayer went out on angel radio?
• If no angels could get in the hospital room after Dean put up the sigils, why didn't he just stay in there himself?
• It just occurred to me that Cas might be a bigger fuck-up than Sam.  I mean, first the whole letting out the Leviathans and decimating the angel ranks by declaring himself God and now getting the rest of the angels kicked out of heaven...I think that might even be worse than starting the Apocalypse.  (But not worse than not looking for Dean or Kevin of course.  Cause even when Cas royally screws up, he's more dependable than Sam, right?  ::snort::)
• Everything Sam needed to let go of life was in that crappy little cabin?  To be honest, I expected to see more than just Death waiting for him.  
• I don't think Death was just in Sam's head.  I think he was in Sam's head, but I don't think it was Sam hallucinating him.  And I think Death would have said the same thing about an honor to collect them if it were Dean.  They've both been winning at the Final Destination game so long, I think Death would want to make sure he really got them himself.  
• Sam's carrying around some baggage about people getting hurt because of him.  Let it Go, Sam.  Let It Go.  Turn away and Slam the door...
• Hail couldn't heal herself?  Makes no sense to me.  
• Love how Death just stood by and looked like "whatever" when Sam was deciding to live or die.
• At first that "there ain't no me if there ain't no you" like really gagged me.  I mean, what?  What the Hell?  I know Dean would sacrifice his life for Sam, has done so already, but that just seemed over the top.  And way, WAY too corny.  Then I got it:  That wasn't Dean saying it.  That was Ezekiel - who literally needed to possess Sam to stay alive as much as Sam needed Ezekiel's possession to heal him.  "There ain't no (Ezekiel) if there ain't no (Sam)"  They would both die.
• ZekeSam walks like RoboSam.  Just getting used to the new digs, Zeke?
• Cas' suit was machine washable?  Really?  How convenient for him that there happened to be someone his size doing laundry at the same time who left their basket unattended.
• Overall?  Too many conundrums in this episode.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Hail couldn't heal herself?  Makes no sense to me. 

I think the idea is that now that the angels are cut off from heaven and the souls residing there, they aren't as powerful. It's kinda like how Cass was in S5. He could still teleport, but couldn't heal Bobby. And, sending Sam and Dean back in time almost killed him. But yeah, it doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense. It' is Supernatural, after all! ;)

[pixelcat]

10 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Cas lost his grace and can't hear Dean's prayers but can still hear angel radio.  But I thought Dean's prayer went out on angel radio?

I think when Cas was returned to Earth, the cries of the other angels were too overwhelming for him to hear anything else.  Dean also gave Cas almost no time to respond. I guess he was expecting him to just pop in to the chapel, not realizing that when the angels fell they lost that ability.  I do find the scene of "farmer angel" hopping his tractor to get there as quick as possible pretty amusing; I can just hear him thinking "screw the plants, I'm gonna bag me a Winchester!"

[Diane]

i am  just going to say ugh for the next few episodes. Just going to plow through. Ugh ugh ugh.

[Dobian]

After watching this one, it makes me ask the question that's been nagging me since the days of Zachariah.  Why exactly was Lucifer the only angel God threw out of Heaven?  I would think he'd have cast at least eighty percent of them into the pit, since it seems that many of them are evil, weaselly assholes.

[DittyDotDot]

31 minutes ago, Dobian said:

After watching this one, it makes me ask the question that's been nagging me since the days of Zachariah.  Why exactly was Lucifer the only angel God threw out of Heaven?  I would think he'd have cast at least eighty percent of them into the pit, since it seems that many of them are evil, weaselly assholes.

When the show introduced Abaddon as a Knight of Hell, I thought the show was going to tap into the "lore" of the angels that were cast out of heaven with Lucifer. It seems the show has never tapped that well, but it could've been interesting.

[Dobian]

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 10:21 PM, Diane said:

i am  just going to say ugh for the next few episodes. Just going to plow through. Ugh ugh ugh.

lol I'm afraid to watch now.  Can't wait for the latest melodrama to die down so they can get back to the one-off episodes.

[Diane]

Just now, Dobian said:

lol I'm afraid to watch now.  Can't wait for the latest melodrama to die down so they can get back to the one-off episodes.

It does get better, but I slow down on my re watch every time I get to season 9.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

Can't wait for the latest melodrama to die down so they can get back to the one-off episodes.

LOLOLOL!!!  (And I'm only up to ep 12.)

Oops...probably shouldn't have said that.  :)

[Demented Daisy]

I hate season 9.  That's the only season I can say that.  *sigh*

[Dobian]

Maybe Crowley should have stayed locked in the trunk so he could have missed the season too.  I guess I'll have to hate watch this, lol.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Maybe Crowley should have stayed locked in the trunk so he could have missed the season too.  I guess I'll have to hate watch this, lol.

Oh, but I like Crowley for the first half of the season again, I won't tell you why, but could be something to look forward to? ;)

[DittyDotDot]

Sigh. If you remove the nonsense in Sam's head, this episode is pretty decent, sans the soapy writing, at times. But, since Sam's coma-head nonsense is part of the episode, I can't call it a win.

However, Cass is very compelling in this episode. The way he tries to convince Hael that the angels falling could be an opportunity if they could just allow it to be. And, I love how he's willing to go to the Grand Canyon with her and show her that it's not all bad here. Too bad she wasn't that innocent angel he thought she was, but still, I love Cass's faith in humanity. I just adore how he wants to help everyone and make things better. It's very endearing to me.

I also love the idea that Dean has the King of Hell locked in his trunk. And, no that's not a metaphor! ;)

Edited September 16, 2016 by DittyDotDot