S14.E05: Nightmare Logic

[catrox14]

11 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Like, how are we getting all of this romance crap with AU Bobby and Mary, when we should be getting Mary trying to bond with her sons? Its not interesting, and just continues to make Mary look like an idiot who doesn't care about her son

I think they are still in the Mary isn't just a mom thing here. I legitimately think they think it's a great idea to put NotBobby and her together and I think they are doin to make her more likable because she cares about "Bobby" who the writers think everyone loves and will accept as OG Bobby.

I'm trying to figure out what happens when someone who knew Bobby sees not!Bobby and wonders how he's alive. Or if the other people  run into this  world's counterpart

. That never made sense to me that point was never addressed before they all came over.

Like all they had to do for why everyone had to live in the bunker and become hunters was because doppelganger run in worries. Easy and reasonable answer. And make it that the AU people don't want to be in the bunker and they have exchanged one kind of hell for another. Now that would have been interesting IMO. Oh well.

[catrox14]

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

My guess is that Sam had been in panic mode looking for Dean, in addition to having all of these people in the Bunker.  People he also felt responsible for.  I would guess that part of his need to "control" some of it was out of self-preservation. 

For me the big disconnect in the writing is that all those people were not in the bunker at the end of s13 which was only 3 weeks after Dean was Michael-napped. Was there any on screen explantation as to why they are all there other than Sam training them. I am sincerely asking because maybe I missed some dialogue that explained the about face.

It would have been cheesy, but alot better to have a brief scene if even it's just on the phone saying to one of them or show not! Bobby saying , "whelp Michael made it over and he's after all of us so the bunker is the best place and we can develop a plan to save Dean and kill Michael. And since you all fought him for years I can use the help." I can headcanon that but it kind of falls apart when they don't at least exposition it away. I don't need to be spoon-fed the plot but at least make it enjoyable by letting us understand Sam's thinking here. And not have people call him Chief and him be so embarrass ed by it but he doesn't insist they stop either which he could since he's the leader. It's easy enough to do. I mean it's not really a military situation so why the formality. It's all kind of stupid IMO.

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 11/10/2018 at 1:37 PM, catrox14 said:

Okay, after rewatching this episode, I am fully convinced that Michael is still in Dean.  The "You...you!?" thing when the djinn tried to read Dean's mind and it backfired...tells me that Michael is hiding inside Dean still.  I can't imagine any other reason for the Djinn to say that.  I think Michael came out and said "I don't have lamb's blood....but I can improvise and proceeded to beat the crap out of the Djinn.  I don't see any reason why Dean would narrate his own improvisational skills even with some of the hack writing in this show.  Dean would just do it and not say anything.  Also, I've decided that Michael needs to stay in Dean for his own safety so he's hiding so Dean can't kick him out. 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  (I'm also probably totally wrong)

Part of me also feels that Michael is in there somewhere, even though it doesn't really make sense within the storyline, and they seem to have almost gone to such lengths to show that Michael really IS gone that to throw a "twist" like that in there at this point would reek of desperation. Though, on the other hand, that might not be so far off...

The main thing, to me, is how beautiful Dean looks this season. Not that Jensen is not impossibly gorgeous already, but, to me, anyway, when he was younger he had a truly ethereal beauty which matured to a more rugged, more earthy handsomeness. 

Somehow, this season, there is an echo of the way he looked  earlier. If his face were not still so expressive, I'd almost suspect Botox LOL!  At any rate, it does make me wonder whether there is an acting choice in there (which would be beyond impressive) to somehow erase a bit of the world-weariness from his face and instill a tiny bit of otherworldly glow...

Edited November 15, 2018 by Jynnan tonnix

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Part of me also feels that Michael is in there somewhere, even though it doesn't really make sense within the storyline, and they seem to have almost gone to such lengths to show that Michael really IS gone that to throw a "twist" like that in there at this point would reek of desperation. Though, on the other hand, that might not be so far off...

If you're trying to imply that in Episode 3 they were writing it as if Michael had left and then by episode 5 they realized they'd made a terrible mistake, I don't think I could buy that.  There's not enough time in there, nothing had aired between shooting 3 and writing 5, so there was no fan reaction.  Epi 4 didn't even really mention Michael, so there was nothing really there that would have triggered anything for the writers/show runners.

I do agree that it wouldn't make sense for Michael to be in there.  But, then again it didn't make any sense to me for Michael to allow Dean to take the wheel in killing Lucifer.  So, what do I know?

[Jynnan tonnix]

21 hours ago, Katy M said:

If you're trying to imply that in Episode 3 they were writing it as if Michael had left and then by episode 5 they realized they'd made a terrible mistake, I don't think I could buy that.  There's not enough time in there, nothing had aired between shooting 3 and writing 5, so there was no fan reaction.  Epi 4 didn't even really mention Michael, so there was nothing really there that would have triggered anything for the writers/show runners.

I do agree that it wouldn't make sense for Michael to be in there.  But, then again it didn't make any sense to me for Michael to allow Dean to take the wheel in killing Lucifer.  So, what do I know?

No, didn't mean to imply that exactly...rather than they might have been setting up a "twist" of Michael hiding in Dean all along, but, in their zeal to make it a surprise, making sure the story denied the possibility to the point that if it happened, it would not only end up not only being completely unbelievable, but at least halfway predictable at the same time. If that makes sense. It would be an incredibly heavy-handed course of events, but it's not as though that's unusual for the show these days...

Edited November 15, 2018 by Jynnan tonnix

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

No, didn't mean to imply that exactly...rather than they might have been setting up a "twist" of Michael hiding in Dean all along, but, in their zeal to make it a surprise,  managing along the line to make sure the story denied the possibility to the point that if it happened, it would not only end up not only being completely unbelievable, but at least halfway predictable at the same time. If that makes sense. It would be incredibly an incredibly heavy-handed course of events, but it's not as though that's unusual for the show these days...

Gotcha.  That I can agree with.

[catrox14]

33 minutes ago, Katy M said:

If you're trying to imply that in Episode 3 they were writing it as if Michael had left and then by episode 5 they realized they'd made a terrible mistake, I don't think I could buy that.  There's not enough time in there, nothing had aired between shooting 3 and writing 5, so there was no fan reaction.  Epi 4 didn't even really mention Michael, so there was nothing really there that would have triggered anything for the writers/show runners.

I do agree that it wouldn't make sense for Michael to be in there.  But, then again it didn't make any sense to me for Michael to allow Dean to take the wheel in killing Lucifer.  So, what do I know?

, I think the only reason to believe that Michael is gone is because Dabb said so. And given Dabb IMO has a limited notion of tension he'll think he's really clever when lo and behold Michael reveals himself and he can say oh we didn't want to give it all away. IMO it didn't make sense story wise for Michael to leave his vessel when he said he owned him and had no intention of leaving unless they have LOLcanoned some new rule that consent only had to be given once and Michael take him again whenever he wants. So IMO, Michael could be suppressing Dean as he saw fit and Dean would be none the wiser.

[Katy M]

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think the only reason to believe that Michael is gone is because Dabb said so.

But, if you were Michael, a pretty much all-powerful being, why would you want to hide out, doing nothing?  I don't have a real reason for him to leave either, though.  But, again, logic doesn't play much part in this whole SL, because, like I said, if I were an all-powerful, millennia old angel who had already taken out one version of Lucifer, there is no way, I would hand over the steering wheel to some human to maybe get me killed.  So, he might have some weird, liking for just hanging out in subconsciouses.  But, it's stupid either way.

[juppschmitz]

28 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, if you were Michael, a pretty much all-powerful being, why would you want to hide out, doing nothing?

The one thing that would make a lot of sense to me, strategically speaking, would be for Michael to stay dormant in Dean, sussing out the bunker, it's workings and all the people in it, and lull everybody in a false sense of security before wiping them all out with one single blow. Minimum risk, maximum impact.

Of course, nothing like this is going to happen, because Dabb only thinks in terms of what the 13year olds on Twitter think is OMG how cute!, and not what would actually be a concept for adult, intelligent people.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

The one thing that would make a lot of sense to me, strategically speaking, would be for Michael to stay dormant in Dean, sussing out the bunker, it's workings and all the people in it, and lull everybody in a false sense of security before wiping them all out with one single blow. Minimum risk, maximum impact.

I think he would be too arrogant for that.  If there's one thing we know about angels, especially archangels, is that they think very little of humans.

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think he would be too arrogant for that.  If there's one thing we know about angels, especially archangels, is that they think very little of humans.

Michael seemed to have a specific plan, something other than just enhancing monsters.   He knows that Sam won't stop hunting until he finds his brother,  (or he gets a dog, whatever comes first) so what better way to avoid Sam than to give Dean back control and lay low.   It also allows him to see the bunker and as @juppschmitz says, get the lay of the land.

I don't think its Michael pretending to be Dean, but if (big if) Michael is still there I think he did give Dean back control, like Gadreel did with Sam.

[Myrelle]

33 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

The one thing that would make a lot of sense to me, strategically speaking, would be for Michael to stay dormant in Dean, sussing out the bunker, it's workings and all the people in it, and lull everybody in a false sense of security before wiping them all out with one single blow. Minimum risk, maximum impact.

And he has/had access to Dean's memories so he would know what it means to Dean AND that Dean's family(hunters all) would frequent it and in this last episode it was pointed out that Michael is targeting both hunters and Dean's family.

IA that this would actually make a ton of sense, especially from a tactical and strategic pov.

ETA: Or what ILOVEREADING said. :-)

Edited November 14, 2018 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

unless they have LOLcanoned some new rule that consent only had to be given once

Didn't Jimmy have to say yes again in order for Castiel to exit Claire and return to him?

I'm still saying that unless Michael is zapping around the universe as a celestial wavelength, he's hiding out in Dean.

[Katy M]

39 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Didn't Jimmy have to say yes again in order for Castiel to exit Claire and return to him?

Yes, but Michael was also able to resist Dean's "Get out" so he might be working under different rules, because you know, show. 

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Yes, but Michael was also able to resist Dean's "Get out" so he might be working under different rules, because you know, show. 

And Gadreel popped in and out of Tamoh a few times without asking after the first time.   Maybe once given, permission is assumed unless actually revoked (like, um, Dean saying "get out"?) ? 

[juppschmitz]

Is it ok to link an episode coda here?

I highly recommend @hunenka's "Eggshells". Just Dean at Donnie:s with a drink and his thoughts. 

(https://archiveofourown.org/works/16622294)

Insight into the character is exactly what the episode missed.

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

Is it ok to link an episode coda here?

I highly recommend @hunenka's "Eggshells". Just Dean at Donnie:s with a drink and his thoughts. 

(https://archiveofourown.org/works/16622294)

Insight into the character is exactly what the episode missed.

That's exactly what this episode felt like, with regards to Dean and Sam's roles.   Dean was in charge but he let Sam think he was calling the shots.  Thanks for sharing

Edited November 14, 2018 by ILoveReading

[FlickChick]

15 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

And Gadreel popped in and out of Tamoh a few times without asking after the first time.   Maybe once given, permission is assumed unless actually revoked (like, um, Dean saying "get out"?) ? 

Actually, Gadreel's original human vessel (Tahmoh) says "yes" right before Gadreel takes him over a second time in the bar with Metatron. So I would say that a second "yes" is necessary. Not that it makes any difference with Dabb's LOL canon.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Actually, Gadreel's original human vessel (Tahmoh) says "yes" right before Gadreel takes him over a second time in the bar with Metatron. So I would say that a second "yes" is necessary. Not that it makes any difference with Dabb's LOL canon.

I didn't remember the second yes... thought the bartender was talking to metatron and then suddenly straightened up and became Gadreel.  I'd go back to check but I don't really care. ?

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, juppschmitz said:

Is it ok to link an episode coda here?

I highly recommend @hunenka's "Eggshells". Just Dean at Donnie:s with a drink and his thoughts. 

(https://archiveofourown.org/works/16622294)

Insight into the character is exactly what the episode missed.

This was a great read; thanks for posting it! @hunenka this was a perfect coda for this episode. 

[hunenka]

19 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

This was a great read; thanks for posting it! @hunenka this was a perfect coda for this episode. 

Thanks for reccing my fic, @juppschmitz, and thank you for the compliments, @DeeDee79 and @ILoveReading!

[Lemuria]

Just read it @Hunenka and you can add my vote to the "I loved it" category.  Well done.

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, hunenka said:

Thanks for reccing my fic, @juppschmitz, and thank you for the compliments, @DeeDee79 and @ILoveReading!

You're welcome :)

[Zipper]

You have all hit on almost everything I thought of (I'm a week behind), except I don't believe anyone commented on this aspect of Maggie's allegedly being ready for a solo hunt:  either she's a fool or the costume department doesn't understand what "readiness" looks like for hunting. Pink pants? They practically glowed in the dark. And her boots? Laced up 3/4 of the way, and loose. She couldn't have run a block on flat, dry pavement. Dumb, and lazy.  That's how I felt about almost every element of the show this week, except for the daughter and the djinn's dynamics. 

[Bergamot]

Quote

Do any of them want to go home?  Do they have friends, families left over in apocalypse world? 

This is a comment by @ILoveReading from the "Optimism" episode thread, but it reminded me of something I was thinking about while watching this episode.

In thinking about this group of hunters, I still am wondering what happened to that gang of little children in the AU hunters' camp, the ones that were enjoying Jack's shadow puppets. Not that I am particularly interested in getting to know all the hunters as individuals either, but it is very blatant to me how the group of AU hunters that Mary and Jack were living with over in the AU, the ones that Mary was so attached to that she couldn't leave them behind, have morphed into an entirely different group of people now. No families, no children, no older people other than Bobby. Remember when Dean and Sam were trying to convince the hunters to come back with them, how they made their case before 2 or 3 of their leaders, who were all skeptical, grizzled, hard-bitten war veterans? Those guys would have laughed in Sam's face if he told them they had to wear body-cams to hunt and gave them little speeches on the importance of "doing their homework".

The ones we have now, the ones who listened obediently to Sam's "camp counselor" pep talk and later clustered happily around Maggie when she returned to the bunker, looked to me like a group of eager young twenty-somethings. They are, not coincidentally, just the kind of hunter potentials that would be suitable for Sam's Chiefdom.  I am sure of course that someone can fanwank an explanation, but it is the very fact that the show didn't even bother with one, and just expected us to accept the status quo in the bunker when the season opened, that helps make the bunker hunters storyline so contrived and artificial to me.

[Wynne88]

On 11/17/2018 at 7:03 AM, Bergamot said:

Quote

Do any of them want to go home?  Do they have friends, families left over in apocalypse world? 

This is a comment by @ILoveReading from the "Optimism" episode thread, but it reminded me of something I was thinking about while watching this episode.

In thinking about this group of hunters, I still am wondering what happened to that gang of little children in the AU hunters' camp, the ones that were enjoying Jack's shadow puppets. Not that I am particularly interested in getting to know all the hunters as individuals either, but it is very blatant to me how the group of AU hunters that Mary and Jack were living with over in the AU, the ones that Mary was so attached to that she couldn't leave them behind, have morphed into an entirely different group of people now. No families, no children, no older people other than Bobby. Remember when Dean and Sam were trying to convince the hunters to come back with them, how they made their case before 2 or 3 of their leaders, who were all skeptical, grizzled, hard-bitten war veterans?

I hadn't even noticed this, but you are absolutely correct.  

This is one of many instances where the writers/show runner don't seem to feel the need to explain some pretty major things.  

[Cambion]

On 11/14/2018 at 3:57 PM, juppschmitz said:

Is it ok to link an episode coda here?

I highly recommend @hunenka's "Eggshells". Just Dean at Donnie:s with a drink and his thoughts. 

(https://archiveofourown.org/works/16622294)

Insight into the character is exactly what the episode missed.

I really liked this story!