Mad Men - General Discussion

[Neko]

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Even her aggressive conversation with Don in front of the kids because she assumes they can't know words like whatever it was she used--adultery? Something like that. How innocent does she expect kids to be if her affair is discovered?

The word she used was "philandering".  And, I also vommed over her "children are so innocent and magical" schtick.  Such a hippie poser.

[TigerLynx]

On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 12:21 PM, sistermagpie said:

Yes, that's the moment I wish Don had been willing to tell her off. Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of creeps hitting on you, but whatever flirting Don was doing had far more deniability than Suzanne calling him up half-drunk to bring up their deep emotional connection again while Betty's going into labor and might as well not exist. The conversation at the eclipse was especially bold given that iirc she asks him what he's doing for the summer and then objects when he tells her as if he just did something sneaky by giving her this information.

Suzanne was a hypocrite, but so was Don.  When Don was talking to Suzanne on the phone, she asked how he was, and he told her she was the only one who would think to ask that, it annoyed me to no end.  How dare his pregnant wife, who just lost her father, who he has been cheating on for years, and slut shamed on more than one occasion, not dance attendance on Don's needs 24/7.  In the beginning of their marriage, Betty loved and adored Don, and he is the one who threw it all away.

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

Suzanne was a hypocrite, but so was Don.  When Don was talking to Suzanne on the phone, she asked how he was, and he told her she was the only one who would think to ask that, it annoyed me to no end.  How dare his pregnant wife, who just lost her father, who he has been cheating on for years, and slut shamed on more than one occasion, not dance attendance on Don's needs 24/7.  In the beginning of their marriage, Betty loved and adored Don, and he is the one who threw it all away.

So true! It's not even like it's some great compassion on her part. She's concerned with the welfare of the person she wants. It's even a running theme on the show of other people pointing out to Don that they support him all the time and then find themselves hung out to dry because Don had some impulse and didn't think about anyone else. Betty's love and adoration was invisible because it was too familiar.

[voiceover]

So yet another time through, and I find myself even more resolutely... Team Megan!

I don't even know what 2013 me would think, if she knew.  Back then the sight of Jessica Pare onscreen made me want to throw my TV out the window.  Five years on and 12 times through the series, I'm all, "Fuck you, Don!!" right now.  And Sylvia: in the words of Rose Castorini (Cher's mom in Moonstruck): "I want you to stop seeing [him]!...And go to confession."

[voiceover]

LLet me append to my newly-discovered Megan!Love, blooming affection for one Bob Benson.

The first time around I thought him a bundle of ass-kissing fakery.  After his Big Reveal, I understood him better.  Still didn't care much for the character, though I hated how Pete handled his confession.

Now, despite his Draper-like reinvention (or maybe because of it) I find he annoys me...well, not at all, anymore.  What won me over?  When he cheerily managed Ginsburg, prior to the Manischewitz presentation.  *Loved* that whole scene, down to Stan's eye-rolling departure.

[newyawk]

Giving the series another try because I could never get past the first episode of season 6. I forgot how much I despise Sally Draper. What an obnoxious brat. 

[voiceover]

10 hours ago, newyawk said:

I forgot how much I despise Sally Draper. What an obnoxious brat. 

Eek!  A soulmate!!

Sit right down here next to me.  We may have to swim upstream against the Kiernan Shipka Fan Club; there may be only...uh... five of us; but we be a hearty band.

[newyawk]

On 10/29/2018 at 12:07 AM, voiceover said:

Eek!  A soulmate!!

Sit right down here next to me.  We may have to swim upstream against the Kiernan Shipka Fan Club; there may be only...uh... five of us; but we be a hearty band.

I just watched The Beautiful Girls episode (s4e9) and applauded when Sally ran down the hallway and fell on her face, lol. 

[newyawk]

You know, even in a cast of characters full of assholes, Margaret Sterling is a particularly huge asshole.

[Neko]

27 minutes ago, newyawk said:

You know, even in a cast of characters full of assholes, Margaret Sterling is a particularly huge asshole.

I agree.  I don't think there was a single scene where I liked, or sympathized with Margaret.  Maybe when she was crying over her father marrying a woman her own age, but even then, she was being overly dramatic, about it.  Then she became Marigold, and abandoned her child.  Margaret/Marigold sucks.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, newyawk said:

You know, even in a cast of characters full of assholes, Margaret Sterling is a particularly huge asshole.

She's kind of a wonderful creation, especially because her parents are both in their own ways so fabulous. I always get the feeling that her issue is more about that Roger being emotionally unavailable. I mean, it would be hard to have a father who was always so witty you could never touch him, but the way Margaret seemed to try to go about it even at 16 was just awful--and she turned out to be much worse than he was, really. Roger can be careless, but when it came to his family (including those who weren't blood related) he was never intentionally hurtful, it seemed to me.  Like when Margaret sucks up to him to ask for money--that's not the type of thing Roger would do. He'd ask for something if he had to, but he'd be upfront about it and not fake affection to get it. There's a reason nobody except Margaret can stay angry at him.

She's like Ferris Bueller's sister Jeanie but without the sympathy and without the ultimate turnaround at the end. 

[Athena]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Roger can be careless, but when it came to his family (including those who weren't blood related) he was never intentionally hurtful, it seemed to me.

I don't like Margaret either. I do wonder how much Roger was even around for her growing up. It's probably how Roger was raised, but that doesn't work for everyone. I think the Margaret storyline did showcase the generational gaps that happens to most families, but made worse by the cultural upheaval of the time and the privilege that the Sterlings had. Margaret was very needy that her tipping point involved running away. 

Compare Margaret to Pete. They both had privileged upbringings and emotionally unavailable parents. Pete really struggled and was an ass, but he gets a turnaround and a sympathetic story arc. He ended up being better than both his parents. 

[Neko]

I hated the way Margaret tried to justify leaving Ellery by saying that's what Roger did to her.  Mona should have slapped her.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I agree.  I don't think there was a single scene where I liked, or sympathized with Margaret.  Maybe when she was crying over her father marrying a woman her own age, but even then, she was being overly dramatic, about it.  Then she became Marigold, and abandoned her child.  Margaret/Marigold sucks.

You know, it is interesting.  In Kramer v. Kramer, set about a decade after the events of Margaret leaving her life, you see a woman in a similar situation.  She's deeply unhappy with her own life, so she abandons her child for some indefinite period to go and find herself, so she can be a better parent when she returns to reclaim him.  Ultimately, it's a very selfish act on her part, but you can see why she did it.  With Margaret, I don't think they did a great job of explaining Margaret's thinking, and she seemed too old to run off and join a hippie commune.  I guess the idea is that she is her father's daughter, in that she put her own needs first and didn't give much thought to the damage she was doing.  I'd like to imagine that Margaret probably would return to the fold at some point, and at least try to resume her role as a parent.    

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

You know, it is interesting.  In Kramer v. Kramer, set about a decade after the events of Margaret leaving her life, you see a woman in a similar situation.  She's deeply unhappy with her own life, so she abandons her child for some indefinite period to go and find herself, so she can be a better parent when she returns to reclaim him.  Ultimately, it's a very selfish act on her part, but you can see why she did it.  With Margaret, I don't think they did a great job of explaining Margaret's thinking, and she seemed too old to run off and join a hippie commune.  I guess the idea is that she is her father's daughter, in that she put her own needs first and didn't give much thought to the damage she was doing.  I'd like to imagine that Margaret probably would return to the fold at some point, and at least try to resume her role as a parent.    

The thing with Margaret is in Kramer vs. Kramer, although we didn't see their previous life, there were some clues as to how Joanna was a full-time caretaker etc. We saw how her husband got used to basically just talking over her etc. Not that this made her decision any less hurtful to the child, but she did seem to be telling the truth when she said she wanted to be a better parent eventually.

With Margaret it's hard not to judge her by the pattern of events we'd seen over the past 10 years. She always seemed to be wailing about something in her life she didn't have while other people were doing at least something to give it to her. She wanted to get married, she wanted money for her husband, she hated her dad's new wife, she didn't want to get married because the wedding was ruined, she was going to therapy, she went to a commune where Roger tried to understand her. Plus even she herself didn't see the commune as a place where she was improving herself with Ellery in mind that I remember. She felt she just had the right to live for herself because Roger did.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Margaret did eventually return and want to be a parent, but at this point I'd fear that she might bring the same attitude to her son and demand things he couldn't give her.

[TigerLynx]

Mona was part of a generation that was told you stay and make the marriage work no matter what.  They are now in a time when women were staying fuck that why the hell should we.  However, Mona is a strong woman.  Margaret is a spoiled selfish child, and probably will still be the same way when she is 80, if she lives that long.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mona raised her grandson, and he turned out much better than Margaret.  Mona dealt with and survived Roger divorcing her with more grace and maturity than 99% of the other characters on this show ever had.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, TigerLynx said:

Mona was part of a generation that was told you stay and make the marriage work no matter what.  They are now in a time when women were staying fuck that why the hell should we.  However, Mona is a strong woman.  Margaret is a spoiled selfish child, and probably will still be the same way when she is 80, if she lives that long.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mona raised her grandson, and he turned out much better than Margaret.  Mona dealt with and survived Roger divorcing her with more grace and maturity than 99% of the other characters on this show ever had.

Ultimately, it seems Mona knows Roger. She knows who he is and accepts him and even loves him in a way that doesn't damage herself. He's probably a much better ex-husband to her than he ever was a husband. (The same will never be true for Jane.) She has that great line where she says...damn, I can't remember the exact words. But basically she thought the problem was that he thought she was old when really it was that he thought he was. She figured out the problem was his, not hers.

By the end of the series Roger has even grown and seems to genuinely take some responsibility for Emory and Kevin, who might even someday have a positive relationship themselves, for all we know. (Since Emory is Roger's grandson it seems like their relationship would be less fraught than if they were half-brothers.)

One of the things that seems so positive to me about the end of the series is how so many characters are freed from trying to fit into a one-size-fits-all idea of who they should be so that they can have relationships that give them a chance to offer the best of themselves. Margaret by the end of the series still seemed stuck in resentment over what she didn't get. She seemed to use that as an excuse to not think about anybody but herself rather than accept what the flawed people in her life did have to offer. She seems doomed to spend the rest of her life furious that she's never going to be able to move through life like Roger, like Ferris Bueller's sister Jeannie.

[Neko]

On 12/31/2018 at 10:52 AM, sistermagpie said:

Ultimately, it seems Mona knows Roger. She knows who he is and accepts him and even loves him in a way that doesn't damage herself. He's probably a much better ex-husband to her than he ever was a husband. (The same will never be true for Jane.) She has that great line where she says...damn, I can't remember the exact words. But basically she thought the problem was that he thought she was old when really it was that he thought he was. She figured out the problem was his, not hers.

I believe it's something along the lines of, "I used to think you married Jane because I got old, when really, it was because you got old."

And just because it bears repeating, Roger and Mona's post divorce relationship is one of my favorite things about the series.  I like how they were friends who understood each other, but also understood that their time as romantic partners was over, and how they were both okay with that.  I wish my parents had divorced as amicably.

[VCRTracking]

On 1/8/2019 at 9:08 PM, Shakma said:

I believe it's something along the lines of, "I used to think you married Jane because I got old, when really, it was because you got old."

And just because it bears repeating, Roger and Mona's post divorce relationship is one of my favorite things about the series.  I like how they were friends who understood each other, but also understood that their time as romantic partners was over, and how they were both okay with that.  I wish my parents had divorced as amicably. 

Also clear that divorce worked wonders for Mona than marriage to Roger ever did! 

Edited June 7, 2019 by VCRTracking

[KnoxForPres]

I’m rewatching this and can’t believe how good it is on rewatch.

I watched The New Girl this morning before work and that speech to Peggy in the hospital.  And the beginning of them. 

Ive always liked Bobbie. In every scene my eyes were on her. 

Anyone else watching who cares to chat about it by chance?

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, KnoxForPres said:

I’m rewatching this and can’t believe how good it is on rewatch.

I watched The New Girl this morning before work and that speech to Peggy in the hospital.  And the beginning of them. 

Ive always liked Bobbie. In every scene my eyes were on her. 

Anyone else watching who cares to chat about it by chance?

I love rewatching this show. It's kind of like Don's Carousel speech the way you can rewind and go forward and see foreshadowing and callbacks and just how relationships evolve over time. So great watching mid-series Peggy and remembering her in those early days when she was Don's secretary and she obviously didn't feel like she fit into the world as much as she did later.

[KnoxForPres]

@sistermagpie  yes!  Kodak!  Want to join me?

Edited June 13, 2019 by KnoxForPres

[Roseanna]

On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 7:11 PM, sistermagpie said:

I remember at the time I just couldn't be on her side at all. When someone tells you, seriously, that they don't enjoy birthday parties--much less surprise ones--that's something you respect. If you choose to use their birthday to have a big party where you get to perform, that's you using their birthday for yourself and making them even more repulsed by birthdays. Serves her right that she didn't get the reaction she wanted.  

I thought excatly so. (Unfortunately, there are also people who say that they don't want party or presents - and then they are disappointed, when others take them earnestly.) Meghan's words afterwards "Who wouldn't like birthday party" showed that she just didn't understand that other people - and most of all,  jher husband - didn't feel and act like her.

I have read here so many good interpretations and opinions about Meghan that I simply can't quote them all, so I simply write some of my thoughts. 

I was interested in Faye and hoped that Don would get serious about her, but then all of sudden he proposed Meghan, evidently because she was great with his kids and he wanted a new start (of course Meghan was good in bed but Don didn't marry any of women he had a long relationship). I like love stories where the audience can anticipate ("these two suit to each other) and wait for them to get to together. Afterwards, I must admit that it was just a right decision from MW to let character like Don to remarry without thinking.   

I doubted from the beginning that the marriage was a mistake. But then I had to admit that as a stepmom Meghan was good, especially considering her age it's not easy to take care of your husband's children even sometimes. 

I confess that I didn't like that Meghan was promoted just because she was the boss's wife, when Peggy had to work hard and show her talents in order to promoted and Joan had shown her ability to analyze TV series was ignored. Also, when Meghan worked under Peggy, she showed no particular talent. And Don was always urging her to leave early with him and Peggy of course couldn't say "no, we have work to do" to the boss's wife.  

But then Meghan had that one good idea and one good performance - and I had to admit that I had been wrong and she had talent. But I admired much more Peggy's generosity to congratulate her.  

When Meghan's dad said to her that she had chosen the easy way by marrying a rich husband and abandoning her original dream, acting, I thought: if acting was her dream, why did she then abandon it already earlier and become a secretary (and, as she said to Don, wanted to do what Peggy did)? And why did she become so starry-eyed when Don proposed as if getting married well was all she had ever wanted in life?

And perhaps most of all: can't she understand that if you want to get your dream, you must make choices and work hard and long - and even then, it's not possible that all succeed.

Therefore, although I I sometimes felt sympathy towards Meghan because of the way Don treated her, that sympathy stopped completely when she blamed Don for "wasting her youth" - come on, you decided to marry him, you decided to act in a soap and an ad, you left the soap, went to Hollywood and lived there on his money and when you didn't succeed to make a career, you blame him! Grow up!

Instead she, a still young woman with no kids, perfectly capable to earn her own living f.ex. as a secretary, took a check of million dollars from Don - after insisting earlier when he promised to take care of her until she needed allowance no more.

It's true that Meghand didn't do others as bad thind as many characters did. Still, she lacked something that some of those characters had: honesty with herself.

[Roseanna]

On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 9:46 PM, Melancholy said:

It's frustrating to watch and I've criticized it before but it's strangely admirable that Peggy makes such fool hardy choices in love. Pete, the just married accountman who introduced himself to her as a total asshole. Ted, the married man unlikely to leave his wife. Duck, the washed up older man who per her roommate doesn't even have the romance or guilt-present value of being married. Abe, the determinedly poor hippie who detracts from her climb to universal ideals of success. However Peggy had feelings and she chased after them because unlike the other women on the show, Peggy knew that she could count on her own mind and work to support herself. 

Maybe Peggy "subconciously" chose relationships that were likely to fail after giving her sex for awhile because, as she said to Pete, she wanted "something else", i.e. a career. If she had married young and had kids, she couldn't have a career.

She also said to Pete that she could have get him if she had wanted, meaning that she had forced him to marry her, but I don't think she had succeeded: even of Trudy had left him (he wouldn't voluntarily leave her, her father was far more important for his career), why would he make a social suicide by marrying him, instead just paying for the baby?

Edited July 4, 2019 by Roseanna
correcting a word

[Roseanna]

On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 10:06 PM, sistermagpie said:

She really does admit it--and her mother is so right, even if Abe isn't thinking along these lines at the time consciously. That storyline always makes me think about how times really have changed. Nowadays it's so standard to move in with someone I wouldn't take it as a sign one way or another about whether you'd eventually get married or not, but here Peggy probably should have known it meant marriage was not happening. Joan probably would have said that at some other point in the series but she's been so burned by marriage she's rethinking all those rules. 

I must confess I got it all wrong because I saw it today's POV. Besides, I thought what a hypocrite her mother was ("people have always done it, but not openly").

In the end, it was lucky for Peggy that Abe didn't propose. She looked and dressed like as she was going accept for the wrong reason that finally some man did it.    

[qtpye]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Maybe Peggy "subconciously" chose relationships that were likely to fail after giving her sex for awhile because, as she said to Pete, she wanted "something else", i.e. a career. If she had married young and had kids, she couldn't have a career.

She also said to Pete that she could have get him if she had wanted, meaning that she had forced him to marry her, but I don't think she had succeeded: even of Trudy had left him (he wouldn't voluntarily leave her, her father was far more important for his career), why would he make a social suicide by marrying him, instead just paying for the baby?

I didn’t get that either. Pete would not want to be tied to Peggy and you could not force a man to marry you because you are pregnant. It would if been a huge scandal and Trudy would of left him but he probably would not have married Peggy. I imagine it might be something Peggy says to herself to justify the fact that she might not have maternal feelings the way she was taught to and might actually be a little relieved the baby was adopted.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I didn’t get that either. Pete would not want to be tied to Peggy and you could not force a man to marry you because you are pregnant. It would if been a huge scandal and Trudy would of left him but he probably would not have married Peggy. I imagine it might be something Peggy says to herself to justify the fact that she might not have maternal feelings the way she was taught to and might actually be a little relieved the baby was adopted.

I went back and checked this and what she actually says is "I could have had you in my life forever" and that she could have "shamed him" into being with her. So she seems to even be allowing in what she's saying that she's wouldn't necessarily have forced him to marry her, just "be with her" in some capacity. Which could have involved creating a scandal and breaking up his marriage, but probably not actually forcing him to marry her instead.

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

And perhaps most of all: can't she understand that if you want to get your dream, you must make choices and work hard and long - and even then, it's not possible that all succeed.

This is one of the things I love about Megan as a story. The show is filled with characters doing their jobs and being good at it. But even those who are good at it are not good at it all the time. The best ones are the ones who continue to plow forward when they're not having success. Peggy faces lots of set backs. Pete learns how to do his job and then be good at his job during the show. Don never loses the drive to be the best.

It seems like Megan is just set up as the opposite of that. When we meet her she's like 25 years old and has already quit acting. She herself claims she tried at advertising harder than she tried at acting and she didn't try very hard at advertising at all. On the contrary, she hit a lucky home run and won a Clio. That showed she had some talent, but not the drive to keep plowing forward when she wasn't getting great ideas in the shower.

Even when she's on the show we see her thrilled at the fame but not seeming very good at the actual job. She's confused and frustrated by character notes she's getting without showing any determination to rise the challenge and do better. And once she gets to LA she's right back into the fits of desperation she fell into after her short period of struggle before the Butler shoe ad. She can't get herself through the rough parts.

Don was a terrible husband but not emotional abusive in a way that would take away her ability to be an actress at all and he gives everything she needs in a practical sense to pursue her dream - tons of money and her first professional success. Even if it was because of him she quit the soap, she didn't do that reluctantly - at the time she thought it would be the next step up the ladder of success.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I went back and checked this and what she actually says is "I could have had you in my life forever" and that she could have "shamed him" into being with her. So she seems to even be allowing in what she's saying that she's wouldn't necessarily have forced him to marry her, just "be with her" in some capacity. Which could have involved creating a scandal and breaking up his marriage, but probably not actually forcing him to marry her instead.

You are of course right. I only made an interpretation that, because Pete had just said that he loved Peggy and wanted to be with her, Peggy's answer (I would have got you if I wanted) meant marriage. 

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

I didn’t get that either. Pete would not want to be tied to Peggy and you could not force a man to marry you because you are pregnant. It would if been a huge scandal and Trudy would of left him but he probably would not have married Peggy. I imagine it might be something Peggy says to herself to justify the fact that she might not have maternal feelings the way she was taught to and might actually be a little relieved the baby was adopted.

It would have been a wonder if Peggy had had "maternal insticts" towards her baby when she didn't even know that she was pregnant.

Before p-pill. there were women who, although not instantly glad of pregancy (whether they were unmarried or they already had many children, accepted it and began to love the child during the pregancy, after the birth or by and by when they took care of the baby, but there were also women who didn't and said to the child that she or he "had ruined my life". I think Peggy's choice was best not only herself but also for her child.

But Peggy may have "maternal insticts" towards a baby she wants to get. We will never know.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

This is one of the things I love about Megan as a story. The show is filled with characters doing their jobs and being good at it. But even those who are good at it are not good at it all the time. The best ones are the ones who continue to plow forward when they're not having success. Peggy faces lots of set backs. Pete learns how to do his job and then be good at his job during the show. Don never loses the drive to be the best.

It seems like Megan is just set up as the opposite of that. When we meet her she's like 25 years old and has already quit acting. She herself claims she tried at advertising harder than she tried at acting and she didn't try very hard at advertising at all. On the contrary, she hit a lucky home run and won a Clio. That showed she had some talent, but not the drive to keep plowing forward when she wasn't getting great ideas in the shower.

Even when she's on the show we see her thrilled at the fame but not seeming very good at the actual job. She's confused and frustrated by character notes she's getting without showing any determination to rise the challenge and do better. And once she gets to LA she's right back into the fits of desperation she fell into after her short period of struggle before the Butler shoe ad. She can't get herself through the rough parts.

Michael Ginsberg had several brilliant ideas in the beginning (although his Cinderalla who was stalked made my shudder - it was so full of misogyny) and, being a man he never had to fight to succeed but got instantly recognation (although by presenting his second idea of Cinderella after the client had already accepted his first he refused to play according to the rules and openly challenged Don's authority and Don of course showed him who is the by boss by letting Michael's idea in a taxi and presenting only his own).

Yet, after Peggy left, Michael began to make the same complaints that Peggy had earlier had: that nothing was good enough for Don who critiziced him for everything. And according to what was shown to us, Michael never again got brilliant ideas. On the other had, after Peggy came back, Michael ceased to be a lonely genius and was willing to work under her and among other workers (unlike Meghan who didn't tell her idea first to Peggy or even in a meeting where her co-workers were present but went straight to her husband-boss - which understandably made her co-workers first sneer when they learned that the idea of the boss's wife had been accepted via "the kitchen way").

All in all, Michael was a star that swiftly burnt out whereas Peggy got better and better by and by.  She was always willing to work hard and capable to move on when she didn't get recognation she thought she deserved from his mentor Don and even in the phase she was quite experienced and first satisfied with her own ad, when challenged by Don, she was willing to learn more from him, meaning she wasn't satisfied 90 % or 99 %, she wanted and was capable to get 100 %.

I once heard that to Nobel prize winners, it takes a third of work to get a result of 90 %, another third of work to get a result of 99 % and and again another third of work get a result of 100 %. Of course, in normal work life there isn't practical or even possible to do everything perfectly but one must prioritize.

[Roseanna]

On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 6:55 PM, sistermagpie said:

And I think good that it ended with just the two of them (Ted and his wife realizing they didn't have a marriage anymore) rather than Ted having an affair with Peggy and it being about her, or him keeping the marriage going by having an affair on the side. Plus it showed Peggy why Ted wasn't for her. 

On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 7:49 PM, TigerLynx said:

I wish Peggy hadn't fallen for Ted's my marriage is over, even though I haven't gotten around to ending it, my wife doesn't understand me crap.  I didn't think Ted's marriage would last, but I also didn't think he and Peggy would end up together.

On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 8:31 PM, Melancholy said:

Although, Ted wasn't feeding Peggy that crap until right before they slept together for the first and last time. And Peggy knew it was toxic- "Peggy, I'm going to leave my wife." "Don't say that. I'm not that girl." And then they pork.

 I think for most of their relationship, Peggy didn't feel like she had to wrestle with the ethical implications because they weren't sleeping together. It was obvious to the entire world that this was an intense emotional affair but Peggy was able to disassociate herself so that she regarded it as The Correct and Righteous Form of A Boss/Employee Relationship. She yearned for Ted to move the relationship into a sexual, romantic one and blatantly approached him to do so but with the ball in Ted's court to turn it into a full blown affair, Peggy didn't think it was incumbent on her to think of the consequences to Ted's family or the workplace (given her strident self righteous problem with Don/Megan at work) because she wasn't going to make The Ultimate Move. Maybe if Ted/Peggy continued as a sexual relationship she'd be more thoughtful on the consequences and her own toxic, hypocritical role, but it didn't. I think through the end of the series, Peggy only considered the relationship in terms of her being done wrong by Ted leaving and Don "sending him away".

I must confess I had a soft point towards Ted. I understand why Peggy fell for him - she felt she had long been undervalued by Don who had a new favorite, Michael Ginzburg, and Ted first courted her professionally and gave her a post she had dreamed of and more salary she had asked for and then always admired and respected her work and also by and by her as a woman (oh, those Ted's google-eyes!).

Yeh, I admit it's a teenage fantasy - it was simply too perfect.

Besides, it wasn't good for the spirit in the workplace that the boss had "a special relationship" (although there wasn't sex but once in the end). No wonder that others workers were annoyed when Ted praised Peggy's every suggestion and completely ignored them. Peggy didn't like when it was Don and Megan, but now she was blind. 

I know irl cases where if one had been married and fell in love with another and had first a secret relationship and then divorced and married one's lover, and the new marriage succeeded. So cheating teh former spouse doesn't necessarily repeat in the new marraige.

Probably greater obstacles for Ted and Peggy have a successful marriage were that Peggy's image of Ted was too positive (even far more positive than lovers usually have) and that their working relationship was inequal.     

[Roseanna]

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 6:45 AM, sistermagpie said:

Watching Peggy at the Easter Egg hunt makes me think of her “playgrounds” line to Don in The Suitcase, though here she may still be in denial—as her sister says, she acts like it never happened. Also her being given that egg makes me think of Pete giving her his cactus in the last ep, maybe because everything about the two gifts and scenes are completely different. And in a way so perfectly symbolic of Peggy. The egg is given to her in a church in Brooklyn, it’s a symbol of children and the traditional life she left behind--babies and Easter. She’s not sure how to react to it because she hasn’t worked through everything. The cactus she understands and accepts with affection from Pete. It’s non-threatening because it is all worked out and forgiven. Some people always read it as insensitive whenever Pete mentions his child in front of Peggy, but I don’t think that’s what’s going on there.

As a religious symbol, Easter egg means Christ's resurrection. i.e. new life. But you are of course right: the priest gives it (to my POV although he sees it otherwise) maliciously: to make Peggy go to the confession and thus tie Peggy with the old life.

(Just as maliciously Peggy's sister used confession: she pretended to tell about her own sin, her jealousy towards her sister - she was just like Prodigal daughter's sister: I have done everything right but Mama loves my sinful sister more, although making more for her and worrying more for her doesn't necessarily mean more love. But her real motive was to destroy the priest's appreciation for her sister by telling Peggy's child outside marriage.)

In a way, also the cactus means a new life - it grows in a desert where it rains seldon but when it does, it takes the chance, just as Peggy has done, and there becomes suddenly beautiful flowers.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎8‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 9:23 PM, Melancholy said:

Roger really doesn't do well with rejection. I think it's of a piece with how much he's on a months-long-martyr-petulant streak about Don being displeased with him right around this time. Speaking of petulance, I love his "Look, Annabelle. We were not in Casablanca. The only similarity is that you left me for another man.....That woman got on the plane with a man who was going to end WWII. Not run her father's dog food company" and "Well, I got mine. I married Mona, joined the firm, and then I got shipped off to the Pacific for the duration. When I came home, I went to work while you were watching Casablanca. And I got blamed when we lost the account." It's really a lot of anger and petulance for a twice-married guy that was dumped decades ago who doesn't even carry a torch for the dumper and never considered her the one.  

I think it's also one of the most underrated parts of the Man v. Woman sexism issues of the time. Men who went to war and then, came home to work in the mid-20th century felt a particular contempt for women because they don't deal with those immense life events and heck, IMMENSE HISTORICAL EVENTS and they're particularly resistant from hearing any criticism from women who didn't deal with those problems. A lot of histories of WWII and Vietnam in particular discuss how they empowered women by leaving women to manage the homefront in WWII and how the protests against the Vietnam War ended up intersecting with other social movements in the 1960s and it became a rising tide that lifted all boats. However, this is from the stand-point of the marginalized groups. From the standpoint of white men, the wars were a reason to hang onto their entrenched social power because they deserved to come home and rule the roost after fighting to defend it. In this, Roger putting Annabelle in this "Do-nothing women" class of accusing her of marrying a guy to run her dad's dog food company. It's not crystal clear whether Annabelle's active role in the company and finding an agency and dealing with the movie maligning the company is brand new from her husband's death. However, Annabelle is there like a full-fledged executive of her company making the big decisions. No more of a dilettante or housewife than any of the other execs that SC deals with and actually if anything, Annabelle seemed particularly serious  and she's been truly attached to the business as a family business for decades now. 

I find this very interesting and want to add something.

The Finnish fiction written after the WW2 described problems of marriage between the man who had during the WW2 learned irresponsibility (either to follow orders of their superiors or during the trench warfare even to play hooky) and the wife who had learned indendency and responsibility at home by doing also the husband's work in farms and factories. (That's not saying that many wives were glad needig no more to do so much work.)

The strangest thing from todays POV is that those women who volunteered to help the army and worked hard in difficult circumstances (nursing soldiers and horses, cleaning the dead bodies to make them fit to send home, cooking, air monitoring, telephone broking etc) were with reason valued for their work by the soldiers during the war but after it they were all labelled for sexual misconduct (which in fact was very rare - and besides, it takes too). 

Recently I read that in Russia where women could be soldiers, they were not valued, either. When men came home, they were treated as heroes, but women soldiers had to be silent about their experiences.    

[Roseanna]

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 7:58 PM, qtpye said:

Roger can't stand to have Jane out of his life, so he proposes, when he has had an affair with Joan for years and never seemed to want to propose to her.  One could argue perhaps Joan is the one who did not want him to leave his wife, but it still makes her kind of look foolish.

There was no reason for Roger to propose to Joan: divorce is costly, he got from her just what he wanted, namely sex, intimacy and excitement. Although he would have had sex and intimacy also when married with her, excitement would be lost and, being the man he was, he would have taken another mistress. 

For the same reasons, it was foolish to propose to Joan, but she was young and he was getting old.  

As for Joan, she knew and accepted the rules of the marriage and having affairs in that time. He wouldn't leave his wife for her, so she didn't even ask for it but accepted all luxury he gave her.  She liked him, perhaps even loved him, but she wasn't blind: she knew that if he had cheated his wife with her, he would cheat her with somebody else.

She wanted to marry a decent quy with the same age as she whom she could trust to be faithful to her and have kids with him. And if we are trust Doctor Greg, he didn't cheat her even in Vietnam, even if he in all else was a jerk.  

If Joan was foolish having a long affair with Roger, it was only because she would have used her more time to search for and find a better man than Greg - and in time, for of course in their thirties best men at that time were no more available. Yet, who can blame her to have lots of fun before settling down in some drab suburb?

 If her plan had succeeded and she had found her perfect husband, she would have left the show as it already had a housewife, Betty. Before all, happy people seldom makes interesting stories. 

[ivygirl]

On 8/21/2018 at 11:45 AM, Melancholy said:

Proposition- Peggy never really fell in love with her parade of guys on this show. She strongly platonically bonded with Pete, mainly AFTER their affair. She bonded with Stan- although IMO less than Pete- BEFORE they became romantic in the series finale. However romantically, Peggy expended energy for the status of having a guy instead of pursuing of a particular guy for himself. Peggy didn't want to be alone but her True Love was always Work. This is particularly clear with Abe. In Far Away Places, she's unhappy in the relationship and seems like she'd be cool if he broke up with her. Abe doesn't appear again until At the Codfish Ball. Peggy misreads the relationship to believe that he's breaking up with her but then, becomes all pleased when Joan indicates that Abe may be conferring the ultimate high status of Wife on her. 

Then, Peggy goes along with moving in with Abe. When Maaaa accuses Abe of using Peggy for practice, Peggy never defends Abe's honor or their relationship or stresses how they love each other and how they're not each other's practice but instead The One for each other. Instead, she just mumbles "Do you want me to be alone?" It's a clear admission that Peggy settled for moving in just because she doesn't want to be alone- not because she truly wants to live with Abe.

In addition to Peggy’s first love being work, I’ve wondered if she didn’t subconsciously use her relationship with Don as a measuring stick. That is, she wouldn’t be happy with a romantic relationship until it paralleled the platonic relationship she had with Don. To be clear, I never shipped her and Don, nor do I think Peggy herself *ever* would have wanted to be with Don. But, think: Don showed Peggy respect. He gave her professional opportunities. He challenged her. And when she was in the hospital, he showed care and discretion. She saw a side of Don that few other women saw, and they had a unique connection. If, on some level, she sought those things out in a serious romantic relationship, I wouldn’t have blamed her. That she ended up with Stan—a coworker—was not entirely surprising in that respect... I think she saw in Stan much of what she had platonically in Don. She may have TRIED to see it in Abe (the “modern” male) and Ted (the boss figure) but clearly they didn’t have the respect for her (Abe) or backbone (Ted).

The dance to “My Way” illustrated this perfectly for me.

But in order to truly work as a romantic, she’d need more parity, which she had with Stan (at least more closely than she did with Don).

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I must confess I had a soft point towards Ted. I understand why Peggy fell for him - she felt she had long been undervalued by Don who had a new favorite, Michael Ginzburg, and Ted first courted her professionally and gave her a post she had dreamed of and more salary she had asked for and then always admired and respected her work and also by and by her as a woman (oh, those Ted's google-eyes!).

Yeh, I admit it's a teenage fantasy - it was simply too perfect.

Never in a million years will I cheer on an affair. But with Ted—at least at first—I’ll say that I had wished he wasn’t married, because initially I thought they would have been good together, and I appreciated how he treated her. I didn’t admire him as time went on, precisely because of how he treated his wife and how he treated Peggy post-affair. But in those early days, I admit that it would’ve been hard for me to ignore his charms, had I been in her position.

Plus, I think Kevin Rahm is really cute and I was mad they gave him that hideous mustache in later seasons 😉 

Edited July 5, 2019 by ivygirl

[qtpye]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I must confess I had a soft point towards Ted. I understand why Peggy fell for him - she felt she had long been undervalued by Don who had a new favorite, Michael Ginzburg, and Ted first courted her professionally and gave her a post she had dreamed of and more salary she had asked for and then always admired and respected her work and also by and by her as a woman (oh, those Ted's google-eyes!).

Yeh, I admit it's a teenage fantasy - it was simply too perfect.

Besides, it wasn't good for the spirit in the workplace that the boss had "a special relationship" (although there wasn't sex but once in the end). No wonder that others workers were annoyed when Ted praised Peggy's every suggestion and completely ignored them. Peggy didn't like when it was Don and Megan, but now she was blind. 

I know irl cases where if one had been married and fell in love with another and had first a secret relationship and then divorced and married one's lover, and the new marriage succeeded. So cheating teh former spouse doesn't necessarily repeat in the new marraige.

Probably greater obstacles for Ted and Peggy have a successful marriage were that Peggy's image of Ted was too positive (even far more positive than lovers usually have) and that their working relationship was inequal.     

Yes, Peggy must have thought she finally found a guy that understood her passion for the work, had some of Don’s creative brilliance, but was not saddled with Don’s severe emotional damage. Ted seemed just as enamored of her. Because Peggy was a woman in a man’s world there was a lot joking about how she was undesirable because that is the only way some of the sexist guys could could cope with having a talented attractive woman as their boss. Here Ted was not intimidated by her but also seemed in awe of her talents as a smart woman. I could totally see why she fell for him so hard.

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I went back and checked this and what she actually says is "I could have had you in my life forever" and that she could have "shamed him" into being with her. So she seems to even be allowing in what she's saying that she's wouldn't necessarily have forced him to marry her, just "be with her" in some capacity. Which could have involved creating a scandal and breaking up his marriage, but probably not actually forcing him to marry her instead.

This is one of the things I love about Megan as a story. The show is filled with characters doing their jobs and being good at it. But even those who are good at it are not good at it all the time. The best ones are the ones who continue to plow forward when they're not having success. Peggy faces lots of set backs. Pete learns how to do his job and then be good at his job during the show. Don never loses the drive to be the best.

It seems like Megan is just set up as the opposite of that. When we meet her she's like 25 years old and has already quit acting. She herself claims she tried at advertising harder than she tried at acting and she didn't try very hard at advertising at all. On the contrary, she hit a lucky home run and won a Clio. That showed she had some talent, but not the drive to keep plowing forward when she wasn't getting great ideas in the shower.

Even when she's on the show we see her thrilled at the fame but not seeming very good at the actual job. She's confused and frustrated by character notes she's getting without showing any determination to rise the challenge and do better. And once she gets to LA she's right back into the fits of desperation she fell into after her short period of struggle before the Butler shoe ad. She can't get herself through the rough parts.

Don was a terrible husband but not emotional abusive in a way that would take away her ability to be an actress at all and he gives everything she needs in a practical sense to pursue her dream - tons of money and her first professional success. Even if it was because of him she quit the soap, she didn't do that reluctantly - at the time she thought it would be the next step up the ladder of success.

This post beautifully explained what was the most fascinating to me about the Megan arc. I never cared about her relationship with Don, which U knew was doomed from the start mostly because of Don. Here was a woman that was not only being handed an amazing career in advertising on a  silver platter but also seemed to have the talent to take it to the next level. As somebody upthread said if you are good at something it means you will even have to work harder and deal with failure for success. She just did not have it in her to endure long term hardship in that manner.

Edited July 5, 2019 by qtpye

[Roseanna]

On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2015 at 12:23 AM, Umbelina said:

Stephanie's story made sense to me.

Screw Don, she had problems of her own, and when, in the group therapy, she felt attacked over her decision about her child, she got pissed off and fled.  It wasn't helping her, and being around Don and HIS problems and easy solutions "put it behind you, move forward" were pissing her off too.  She went for peace and resolve, and instead got Don and judgement from the group.

I just couldn't understand how other people acted towards Stephanie. I mean, I understand what a woman felt who had been left by her mother when she was a child, but why did she say it aloud just then? Stephanie wasn't her mom and done anything bad to her and she had no way in knowing if, like her, Stephanie's child would always wait for her mother - maybe she was quite happy where she was. 

It was a group therapy, so wasn't they suppose to support and empathize each other, un the same time realizing that others were different than themselves and least of all project them feelings they Felt towards those who had hurt themselves?

It's weird that, of all the persons in the group, it was Don (who had been unable to deal with Betty's sorrow when her mom died) was now capable to comfort that man who was so unlike him.  

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, ivygirl said:

I didn’t admire him as time went on, precisely because of how he treated his wife and how he treated Peggy post-affair. 

Ted was a good man who probably had had no affairs before and he just couldn't handle it. He didn't want to be unfaithful but could't stop himself to give google-eyws to Peggy. Most of all, he was too honest about his feelings after their first kiss - he should have lied that it was simply due a spur and didn't mean anything to him, or even better give no explanation and just be professional with her.

Actually Pete's bad behavior was better to Peggy: he hurt her enough to make her realize that he wasn't for her. Instead, Ted sent alternately hot and cold signals to Peggy and she tend to believe the first one and accept the second ones. Finally, against all reasons as he was married, she consciously made an effort to win him by dressing herself in a way that would tempt him sexually as well as making him jealous.

It was ironic that it was the emotional connection Ted and Peggy had was a real threat to Ted's wife whereas when he returned home after having sex with Peggy and making post-coital promises to her he had a wake-up: he wanted to be a good man, not a man who broke his marriage even for love. But it was too late to save his marriage.  

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

As a religious symbol, Easter egg means Christ's resurrection. i.e. new life. But you are of course right: the priest gives it (to my POV although he sees it otherwise) maliciously: to make Peggy go to the confession and thus tie Peggy with the old life.

(Just as maliciously Peggy's sister used confession: she pretended to tell about her own sin, her jealousy towards her sister - she was just like Prodigal daughter's sister: I have done everything right but Mama loves my sinful sister more, although making more for her and worrying more for her doesn't necessarily mean more love. But her real motive was to destroy the priest's appreciation for her sister by telling Peggy's child outside marriage.) 

In a way, also the cactus means a new life - it grows in a desert where it rains seldon but when it does, it takes the chance, just as Peggy has done, and there becomes suddenly beautiful flowers.   

Totally agree--and like that the sister is so believable. She even had a baby at the same time as Peggy. It's fitting for the show that the character who allegedly has succeeded is the one who feels they've been cheated. If her life was really so great she wouldn't need Peggy to be shamed for not having it. It's like when Trudy says to Peggy that "26 is very young" on her birthday--she's being hilariously condescending, but she's also being sincere. She seems to genuinely admire things about Peggy and wish her the best and for Trudy the best is marriage. She just assumes that Peggy is freaking out about not being married yet. Trudy isn't being spiteful, she's happy where she is and is being generous.

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

There was no reason for Roger to propose to Joan: divorce is costly, he got from her just what he wanted, namely sex, intimacy and excitement. Although he would have had sex and intimacy also when married with her, excitement would be lost and, being the man he was, he would have taken another mistress. 

Probably most importantly, Roger and Joan's affair took place at a different time in his life. When he met Jane he was already looking to blow up his life and had his eye out for a woman under 30. He wanted to marry a fantasy woman who was supposed to make him young again and Joan wasn't going to do that. The only thing special about Jane is when she was born and when she met Roger.

Also I think Joan herself was unconsciously putting off getting married for as long as possible because she really didn't want that, as much as she claims she did. She loved working and wanted that life to continue. I was just watching her opening scene and so much in it is obviously false--both the part about "playing your cards right" meaning you move out to the suburbs and that she doesn't know the difference between Accounts and Creative. She does want to find love and would love to be married, but she doesn't want to become Betty.

6 hours ago, qtpye said:

This post beautifully explained what was the most fascinating to me about the Megan arc. I never cared about her relationship with Don, which U knew was doomed from the start mostly because of Don. Here was a woman that was not only being handed an amazing career in advertising on a  silver platter but also seemed to have the talent to take it to the next level. As somebody upthread said if you are good at something it means you will even have to work harder and deal with failure for success. She just did not have it in her to endure long term hardship in that manner.

And it seems like this is something she just really lacks as a personality. It's not just in advertising. There, when she gets success, she's disappointed because she's not that excited by it so you can see why she wouldn't put that much effort into it. But with acting she clearly loves having success. She does want to be an actress--but she doesn't have the grit to stick with that either, it doesn't seem. She's more about being recognized as a success than the work itself, so when she's not getting success there's nothing to keep her going. In fact, she doesn't even seem connected enough to the work to defend it in the face of rejection the way that Peggy can. She doesn't have any real inner confidence about it.

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Totally agree--and like that the sister is so believable. She even had a baby at the same time as Peggy. It's fitting for the show that the character who allegedly has succeeded is the one who feels they've been cheated. If her life was really so great she wouldn't need Peggy to be shamed for not having it. 

Well, Peggy's sister had been taught in the church that sex outside marriage was a sin. But what she didn't remember - and what the young priest didn't say to her, either - that the gravest sins are in one's own heart: envy, jealousy, feeling oneself better than others and condemning them.

Peggy's sister didn't know facts but still she said that Peggy had "seduced a married man" - as if married men were helpless offers who couldn't say "no". When the sister's husband had been healthy, had he been unfaithful or had she had been afraid of that?

In addition, if Peggy had kept her baby and lived in disgrace and poverty, her sister could have feel sorry for her and probably helped her. But Peggy had seemingly (although not psychologically) avoided the consequences of her "sin", was successful in work and lived freely in "town".

Plus, there had probably been rivalry between sisters since childhood; which of two Mummy loves best? Peggy's sister probably believed that she can "earn" Mummy's love by doing everything just as Mummy told. 

[Roseanna]

Contunueing:

Not only Peggy's sister is judgmental. Joan judges Peggy for not being attractive enough and valueing work over getting a husband whereas Peggy criticizes Joan for wearing clothes that "cause" clients make sexist comments to and about her.

And of course Don calls his wives "a whore" without any evidence - after having constantly faithful himself. 

Edited July 6, 2019 by Roseanna
correcting grammar

[Roseanna]

On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 3:54 PM, qtpye said:

On the rewatch something occurs to me.  We know that most of Betty's unhappiness stems from the horrible way Don treats her.  However, when she comes home from Italy, she talks about how she hates their life and friends.  I realize that Betty was a woman leading an average mostly middle class life, who was actually raised to be a socialite.  In this way she was much more compatible with her second husband.  Itbothers her that her life is so small and being a political wife of an old money family really suited her.

On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 5:49 PM, voiceover said:

For awhile.  Then she put on all that weight, and later slept with her ex.

She was unhappy with Don, but sometimes she was happy; she was happy with Henry, but sometimes she was unhappy too.

I always thought Henry was a Daddy replacement.  She pulled the trigger on that divorce less than a year after Gene died.  Lots of people (okay, women) jump into marriage right after a parent dies.

Not that the Draper marriage wasn't ultimately doomed.

I confess I long disliked Betty (especially the way she treated her children and Carla) and saw her and all she did as utterly trivial and also hypocritical (she goes to Henry's office with an obvious excuse, pretending she didn't anticipate how he would interprete it and make a pass on her).

Then somebody said that she was a deeply unhappy woman and I realized that I disliked and judged her mostly because she was in all ways alien to me.

I didn't begun to like her, but perhaps a bit understand her and circumstances that she lived in and that had shaped her. 

I don't think she was unhappy simply because of Don, or living in a suburb, but because she wasn't motherly by nature but she was trapped as her sole roles as a wife and mother. Even a good and faithful husband (what Henry was in that age) didn't change that. And as we saw, her role as "political wife" was to dress well and entertain Henry's supporters but not speak her own opinions about Vietnam war.

She had talent and education but, as her husbands earned enough money, she couldn't work and therefore had no way to get recognation and admiration for herself. She was happy when she made the Coke ad - she liked to do it and she also felt she was valued (however mistankely it was).  

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I confess I long disliked Betty (especially the way she treated her children and Carla) and saw her and all she did as utterly trivial and also hypocritical (she goes to Henry's office with an obvious excuse, pretending she didn't anticipate how he would interprete it and make a pass on her).

Then somebody said that she was a deeply unhappy woman and I realized that I disliked and judged her mostly because she was in all ways alien to me.

I didn't begun to like her, but perhaps a bit understand her and circumstances that she lived in and that had shaped her. 

I don't think she was unhappy simply because of Don, or living in a suburb, but because she wasn't motherly by nature but she was trapped as her sole roles as a wife and mother. Even a good and faithful husband (what Henry was in that age) didn't change that. And as we saw, her role as "political wife" was to dress well and entertain Henry's supporters but not speak her own opinions about Vietnam war.

She had talent and education but, as her husbands earned enough money, she couldn't work and therefore had no way to get recognation and admiration for herself. She was happy when she made the Coke ad - she liked to do it and she also felt she was valued (however mistankely it was).  

I grew to like Betty and understand her more as the series progressed. However, probably one of the reasons people did not like her at first was that her problems were problems of privilege. Also, it always seemed like January was told to play Betty very aloof and she always seemed distant from the audience. I don’t think anyone envied Betty Draper but in 2019 being a beautiful educated woman from a good family is no guarantee that you will have a bevy of rich handsome men willing to financially provide a good life for you and your children. Sure Betty had a narrow role she hated and could not escape but it was not like she was Carla, a kind woman of color who had to get by on scraps of what white society would allow her.  Also, the other women on the show had financial struggles and that made them relatable. Also. I don’t think Betty hated the role of being a wife to a rich man. She loved being worshipped for her beauty and excellent manners. She just did not find being a mother fulfilling. I remember when that horrible comedian was flirting with her how she ate it up, only to be horribly humiliated by finding out that he just wanted to tell her Don was sleeping with his wife, a woman Betty found inferior in looks and breeding. 

[qtpye]

On 4/19/2018 at 4:05 PM, Michael231 said:

I don't know if i can put it here, but i couldn't discover any "fan made", etc. categories, and i am still not quite sure what's with the "unpopular opinion" 

Here, i've made fun of Zou Bisou Bisou, please don't fire me.

Amazing... I nearly died.

On 4/19/2018 at 7:06 PM, Inquisitionist said:

Ha, thanks for the laugh, Michael231!  I think you've finally made me appreciate that the producers were telling us who Megan really was right at the start of S5: a would-be performer who loves being the center of attention but is not really talented.  😉

Like a lot of you I have rewatched the Megan arcs and found her to be much more sympathetic than I did originally. However, one of the problems was that Weiner often told us what to think about her.  They really thought she was awesome in this sequence and they tried their best to make Zou Bisou happen. They were really trying to show case how talented Megan was and how it was a shame she was be wasted in advertising while I was thinking that JP was amazingly beautiful but danced like a toothy giraffe. That scene even makes me cringe more during rewatch. Megan’s giving Don a birthday party was not about Dona at all. It was to show off her new status as Don’s wife and have a captive audience to showcase her “talents”. It isn’t until the next day in the office that she realizes she kinda humiliated herself.

Edited July 6, 2019 by qtpye

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Peggy's sister didn't know facts but still she said that Peggy had "seduced a married man" - as if married men were helpless offers who couldn't say "no". When the sister's husband had been healthy, had he been unfaithful or had she had been afraid of that?

In addition, if Peggy had kept her baby and lived in disgrace and poverty, her sister could have feel sorry for her and probably helped her. But Peggy had seemingly (although not psychologically) avoided the consequences of her "sin", was successful in work and lived freely in "town".

Absolutely. it was like a double slap in the face--not only does she not get to be the favorite by following the rules but Peggy doesn't even get the punishment. But she doesn't want to face up to the fact that Peggy was maybe just the braver person who followed her own desires and was ready to take the consequences even if she had been rejected by her family. The times Peggy does something because she hopes she'll get something out of it from the other person--like when she buys the apartment building that Abe likes--and it falls through she accepts it as her own mistake.

And yeah, really interesting that she says Peggy seduced a married man when she knows nothing about the circumstances of her pregnancy and according to Peggy later Ma hates *Don* for the pregnancy, assuming it's his baby. She knew whatever the circumstances the guy was the one with more power and Anita probably knew it too, underneath. She intentionally made Peggy even more of a villain in the situation.

8 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Amazing... I nearly died.

Like a lot of you I have rewatched the Megan arcs and found her to be much more sympathetic than I did originally. However, one of the problems was that Weiner often told us what to think about her.  They really thought she was awesome in this sequence and that tried their best to make Zou Bisou happen. They were really trying to show case how talented Megan was and how it was a shame she was be wasted in advertising while I was thinking that JP was amazingly beautiful but danced like a toothy giraffe. That scene even makes me cringe more during rewatch. Megan’s giving Don a birthday party was not about Dona at all. It was to show off her new status as Don’s wife and have a captive audience to showcase her “talents”. It isn’t until the next day in the office that she realizes she kinda humiliated herself.

I've learned to take whatever MW says in the moment with a grain of salt. Often he'll say things that sound like he's making one point with the story, but then--to my great relief--the story will play out in a way that more fits what it looked like. Like with Megan I agree, she's just not that great in the scene. Sure, there's something there that he can point to to say wow, Don's new wife is pretty amazing! Nobody else has a wife who could do this...actually, Joan could probably have performed a song in a subtler way and made a better impression! But Megan is making a pretty big statement by being young and sexy and doing a sexy song and dance in France that's all about how sexy she finds her husband. So there is something there that would make a lot of people think wow, his new wife is something special.

But then even in the moment the reaction isn't everybody being amazed by her. If she was really really good she would have won everyone over more. But not a single person seems impressed with her being a good performer. They all more see what she's trying to do rather than what she does. And then her career stays on that same mediocre level. She seems to do better as a quasi-amateur with a husband who gets her opportunities to perform. Thrown out on her own she starts crumbling again.

It's funny how she gets annoyed at Don acting like her husband in the office, like by taking her away from the Heinz pitch, but she doesn't acknowledge how she's throwing around her own weight as the boss's wife all the time. Here especially. She decides to throw a last-minute party for Don that's mostly about her performing and everyone in the office gets yanked into it because they feel like they have to go and watch her perform. it's like Lee Garner's Christmas party.

[qtpye]

45 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Absolutely. it was like a double slap in the face--not only does she not get to be the favorite by following the rules but Peggy doesn't even get the punishment. But she doesn't want to face up to the fact that Peggy was maybe just the braver person who followed her own desires and was ready to take the consequences even if she had been rejected by her family. The times Peggy does something because she hopes she'll get something out of it from the other person--like when she buys the apartment building that Abe likes--and it falls through she accepts it as her own mistake.

And yeah, really interesting that she says Peggy seduced a married man when she knows nothing about the circumstances of her pregnancy and according to Peggy later Ma hates *Don* for the pregnancy, assuming it's his baby. She knew whatever the circumstances the guy was the one with more power and Anita probably knew it too, underneath. She intentionally made Peggy even more of a villain in the situation.

I've learned to take whatever MW says in the moment with a grain of salt. Often he'll say things that sound like he's making one point with the story, but then--to my great relief--the story will play out in a way that more fits what it looked like. Like with Megan I agree, she's just not that great in the scene. Sure, there's something there that he can point to to say wow, Don's new wife is pretty amazing! Nobody else has a wife who could do this...actually, Joan could probably have performed a song in a subtler way and made a better impression! But Megan is making a pretty big statement by being young and sexy and doing a sexy song and dance in France that's all about how sexy she finds her husband. So there is something there that would make a lot of people think wow, his new wife is something special.

But then even in the moment the reaction isn't everybody being amazed by her. If she was really really good she would have won everyone over more. But not a single person seems impressed with her being a good performer. They all more see what she's trying to do rather than what she does. And then her career stays on that same mediocre level. She seems to do better as a quasi-amateur with a husband who gets her opportunities to perform. Thrown out on her own she starts crumbling again.

It's funny how she gets annoyed at Don acting like her husband in the office, like by taking her away from the Heinz pitch, but she doesn't acknowledge how she's throwing around her own weight as the boss's wife all the time. Here especially. She decides to throw a last-minute party for Don that's mostly about her performing and everyone in the office gets yanked into it because they feel like they have to go and watch her perform. it's like Lee Garner's Christmas party.

The only people that seem impressed are her  sycophant acting friends who probably want to use Megan a little now that she is connected to money and an important advertising firm that often cast actors for their commercials.

Remember, to the outside world Don Draper is a rich amazingly handsome man that all women want and all men want to be.  Even when he was low after his divorce, he was still considered a prize catch. At this moment she is kind of basking in the glow of reeling in a prize catch and not realizing that she is coming off a little pathetic. Of course later she learns how damaged Don is and he is far from a prize. When later she says “little Dick Whitman never had a birthday party” she has no idea how horrible she sounds.

The party itself is a fantastic disaster. The twittering over Don turning forty (the horror!) to claiming that everyone has sex after her parties in the most unsexiest voice imaginable and finally the last insult, awakening the lust of Harry Crane. Harry probably always had a thing for Megan but probably would not dare express it so openly. Harry is an idiot and feels now he can be openly pervy because Megan did a sexy dance.

It is also interesting that later in the series Megan hits her rock bottom when she agrees to have lunch with him for professional reasons only to have him proposition her. It’s right before she takes the million dollar check from Don.

Edited July 6, 2019 by qtpye

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

Sure Betty had a narrow role she hated and could not escape but it was not like she was Carla, a kind woman of color who had to get by on scraps of what white society would allow her.  Also, the other women on the show had financial struggles and that made them relatable. 

It's true that Betty had many hours for herself - in order to go riding or feel herself unhappy. But just her priviledge was her prison.

Instead, Carla's day was full of work and she was used to control herself and show no resentment at Drapers' and yet she was so warm, supporting motherly towards children. Even when she was upset when President Kennedy was murdered, her emotional state was shown in small ways: that she sat down besides Betty and lit a cigarette.     

[Roseanna]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 7:12 PM, Melancholy said:

Peggy admitted to Freddy that she wanted to her married after fighting him on selling Ponds to help women get married. 

I am not sure if one can take that ernest. People often say  such things because it's expected from them. And, if Peggy had said "no, I don't want to marry", Freddy wouldn't believe her.   

[sistermagpie]

23 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I am not sure if one can take that ernest. People often say  such things because it's expected from them. And, if Peggy had said "no, I don't want to marry", Freddy wouldn't believe her.   

And yet Peggy was amazingly right on that Ponds thing. Yes, many women want to get married, but modern skincare advertising has become a lot about how it's a ritual women do for themselves, not something they do because they think it will help them get a man. There's even a lot of stuff on social media about skincare as an indulgence that some women get really into.

It's a little like Peggy's lipstick pov. The client put the man in control and made it from his pov--the women were like many colors in a box for him to pick from. Peggy changed it to a woman using the lipstick to express herself and mark the man.

Neither thing says that the woman doesn't want to find love or get married, but it gives the woman worth outside that as well.

[Roseanna]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 2:44 AM, TigerLynx said:

I believe Don and Megan's marriage would have imploded eventually even if Megan hadn't returned to acting.  Also, it wasn't just Megan returning to acting that caused problems for them.  Don was supportive of Megan, even if he wasn't happy she was no longer at the office with him.  It was after Megan asked Don to get her the commercial that Don started cheating on Megan.  I think Don had some subconscious anger at Megan because of Betty.  Don tells both Roger and Pete that it is different with Megan.  He wouldn't cheat on Megan like he did Betty.  Don and Megan understand each other, they have a connection, blah, blah, blah.  Then Don starts cheating on Megan, and while Don does tend to live in Denial Land, a part of him knows his first marriage failing wasn't all on Betty.  Don got all self-righteous and judgmental when he found out about Henry, "You never did really forgive me did you?"  "For what, Don?" conveniently forgetting that he was still cheating on Betty with his daughter's teacher no less.  Don's second marriage didn't turn out any better than his first, and there is no way Don can blame Betty for that.  He can try to put all the blame on Megan, but the common denominator in both marriages is Don, and Betty's second marriage is working.

Don may have meant "You never did really forgive me did you" his one cheating that Betty has earlier found out and that had caused their separation until Betty took him back because of pregancy. But I think that the more likely interpretation is Betty's recent revelation that Don had lied about his past to Betty - eventually lied to her every day.

At least he then says that she is a "spoiled brat" who "had everything". This speaks volumes of Don's concept of marriage: he had given her a house, money, sex, children, leisure - why was it not enough for her?  

Of course Betty didn't cause Don's cheating, It was rather due that Don was never sure that he was loved for himself by Betty - and how could he have been sure when he lied to her all the time and she did know him at all. It was easier for him to be with other women who didn't want as much as a wife - and they could offer escape routes in case, like Rachel.

When Betty found out and Don made his revelation, he at first seems to think that all was after it well. Then she all of sudden wanted divorce and said that she didn't love him any more, but he didn't take it seriously at all - he didn't even try to do anything to help the situation. Then the truth was revealed: she had another man waiting - a constant cheater had been duped by his wife! And underneath it all: it was just what he had been afraid - "Dick" couldn't be loved because he wasn't enough for this golden girl.

He probably didn't realize that he had lost her love much earlier because his unability to emotional intimacy. One can clearly see this lack when one compares Don's conduct with Betty and children during President Kennedy's assassination (his standard sentence "Everything will be ok") with how Trudy begans to understand Pete's feelings, his disgust about collegues's reaction and his decision not to go to the weddding.  

Also during Don marriage with Megan, cheating was rather a symptom and consequence of Don's constant problems, not the reason why also his second marriage failed.