S04.E10: Winner

[Bryce Lynch]

9 minutes ago, Dobian said:

The big deal to Gus is that the more these guys are out on their own, the more chances they have to talk, and word starts getting around.  Werner proved this when he was running off at the mouth at the bar.  Gus likes to keep things under control with nothing left to chance.

I agree with that, but if they really wanted to keep things secure, they could have made sure nobody in the group knew where they were.  They spent all of their time either in a basement or a warehouse compound with no windows.  With all the security they put in place, they could have kept the location a secret from the workers, with little additional effort.   Having a R&R trip in ABQ seems lazy and shortsighted to me.  

Edited October 10, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[Bannon]

Mike's frustration with Walt in BB is less puzzling to me know, in light of his experience with Werner. It never quite made sense to me that Mike would be frustrated at Walt's unwillingness to just let Gus kill him, but now I see Mike viewing Walt through the prism of Werner, another very intelligent guy whose personality quirks got in the way of making huge money, and it just irritates the hell out of Mike,   even if the irritation is a bit irrational in itself.

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Again, the sense of being way behind schedule is what makes the R&R in ABQ a credible possibility for me. Every decision maker on the planet is prone to conceding a goal once thought very important, once the primary goal of getting the task accomplished, in a time frame that allowed for overall success, is threatened. That's how you end up with a bunch of Astronauts killed in front of a world wide television audience. I read the scene with Gus and Gale as an angry, chastened, Gus conceding that he had allowed a sense of haste (he really does need the lab producing before the Salamancas get back on their feet, and before Don Eladio gets wind of it) to get the better of him, and going back to his insistence that things be done right, no matter the time involved.

I think you are probably right about the Gale scene.  It was, at least in part, about Gus going back to being super cautious and making sure everything is done exactly right. 

I wonder if Gus was thinking of Werner at his first meeting with Walt, when he corrected Walt and told him, "I don't think we are alike at all Mr. White.  You are not a cautious man at all."   He was not going to, once again, mistake a man being a brilliant, fastidious professional with him being a cautious, reliable man...until he did.  

[ShadowFacts]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I agree with that, but if they really wanted to keep things secure, they could have made sure nobody in the group new where they were.  They spent all of their time either in a basement or a warehouse compound with no windows.  With all the security they put in place, they could have kept the location a secret from the workers, with little additional effort.   Having a R&R trip in ABQ seems lazy and shortsighted to me.  

It was a Mike error.  Taking Werner to another bar was another Mike error.  Telling Gus he had eyes on Werner was another slip-up.  His judgment was clouded by liking Werner.  He fixed up his errors by killing Werner instead of one of Gus' other henchmen doing it.  This was enough of a major screw-up that I'm surprised Gus didn't get rid of Mike and his men, too. 

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think you are probably right about the Gale scene.  It was, at least in part, about Gus going back to being super cautious and making sure everything is done exactly right. 

I wonder if Gus was thinking of Werner at his first meeting with Walt, when he corrected Walt and told him, "I don't think we are alike at all Mr. White.  You are not a cautious man at all."   He was not going to, once again, mistake a man being a brilliant, fastidious professional with him being a cautious, reliable man...until he did.  

For these writers to so seamlessly use the plot developments and characters in BCS to further illuminate BB is just genius level stuff. If they can use Hank and Marie in a similar fashion in the next season of BCS, I will say BCS might be the best written show ever.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, ShadowFacts said:

It was a Mike error.  Taking Werner to another bar was another Mike error.  Telling Gus he had eyes on Werner was another slip-up.  His judgment was clouded by liking Werner.  He fixed up his errors by killing Werner instead of one of Gus' other henchmen doing it.  This was enough of a major screw-up that I'm surprised Gus didn't get rid of Mike and his men, too. 

I agree Mike screwed up because he like Werner.  

Gus doesn't seem the type to kill all of Mike and his men.  Plus, Mike isn't that easy to kill and he seems to have at least as many henchmen loyal to him as Gus does.  Also, by killing Werner, he Mike proved he could be trusted.  Not only did he kill on Fring's orders, he killed when he didn't agree it was necessary and killed a man he genuinely liked.

I still can't get over the fact, that if they just let Werner have his little vacation, Lalo and the Salamancas would not have found out about the lab.  It is sort of like in BB, when the magnet destroyed the laptop that was encrypted anyway while exposing Frings hazard pay, offshore accounts in the broken picture frame.  

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

It was a Mike error.  Taking Werner to another bar was another Mike error.  Telling Gus he had eyes on Werner was another slip-up.  His judgment was clouded by liking Werner.  He fixed up his errors by killing Werner instead of one of Gus' other henchmen doing it.  This was enough of a major screw-up that I'm surprised Gus didn't get rid of Mike and his men, too. 

I guarantee that Mike discussed the ABQ strip club visit with Gus, prior to doing it. Sometimes, the error is inevitable, it's just a matter of picking which particular error. Not getting the lab done in time has meant the Salamancas have caught wind of it prior to production, which means Don Eladio will likely find out about it, which would ruin everything.

As easy as it is to say "Do things right, no matter the time required", taking substantially longer time to complete a project can have potentially hugely ruinous effect. Thus, human decision makers, not being omniscient, make costly mistakes.  

[peeayebee]

40 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Good question.  Maybe he wanted to get an idea from Gale about how much more work would be absolutely necessary to get cooking.  Maybe Gale's goofy and over enthusiastic behavior convinced Gus that he should wait until it was done right.  It is also possible Gale's behavior caused Gus to question how cautious and reliable Gale is, after what he just went through with Werner.  Maybe he wants to consider finding a different chemist, while the basement is completed.  

Hmm. Good points. I think I need to rewatch the scene. I didn't notice Gus's demeanor before Gale started talking.

 

26 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I read the scene with Gus and Gale as an angry, chastened, Gus conceding that he had allowed a sense of haste (he really does need the lab producing before the Salamancas get back on their feet, and before Don Eladio gets wind of it) to get the better of him, and going back to his insistence that things be done right, no matter the time involved.

Maybe you're right, though I thought Gus was cautious to start with. Of course, he went with Mike's recommendation, then it seems like every decision Mike took after that was a disaster. Again, it came down to Mike's liking Werner. Does Gus realize that was Mike's downfall? Can that be related to how he interacted with Gale? When we saw Gus with Gale earlier in the season at the university, he were so friendly and pleasant. Maybe he has been reminded that you can't really make friends in this business.

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I agree Mike screwed up because he like Werner.  

Gus doesn't seem the type to kill all of Mike and his men.  Plus, Mike isn't that easy to kill and he seems to have at least as many henchmen loyal to him as Gus does.  Also, by killing Werner, he Mike proved he could be trusted.  Not only did he kill on Fring's orders, he killed when he didn't agree it was necessary and killed a man he genuinely liked.

I still can't get over the fact, that if they just let Werner have his little vacation, Lalo and the Salamancas would not have found out about the lab.  It is sort of like in BB, when the magnet destroyed the laptop that was encrypted anyway while exposing Frings hazard pay, offshore accounts in the broken picture frame.  

Yes, when you have the overhead view of a t.v. audience, the decisions seem much easier. We benefit from something the characters are deprived of.

4 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Hmm. Good points. I think I need to rewatch the scene. I didn't notice Gus's demeanor before Gale started talking.

 

Maybe you're right, though I thought Gus was cautious to start with. Of course, he went with Mike's recommendation, then it seems like every decision Mike took after that was a disaster. Again, it came down to Mike's liking Werner. Does Gus realize that was Mike's downfall? Can that be related to how he interacted with Gale? When we saw Gus with Gale earlier in the season at the university, he were so friendly and pleasant. Maybe he has been reminded that you can't really make friends in this business.

Even the most cautious of decisionmakers will become dangerously hasty when faced with a terrible dilemma.

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I guarantee that Mike discussed the ABQ strip club visit with Gus, prior to doing it. Sometimes, the error is inevitable, it's just a matter of picking which particular error. Not getting the lab done in time has meant the Salamancas have caught wind of it prior to production, which means Don Eladio will likely find out about it, which would ruin everything.

As easy as it is to say "Do things right, no matter the time required", taking substantially longer time to complete a project can have potentially hugely ruinous effect. Thus, human decision makers, not being omniscient, make costly mistakes.  

But, the Salamancas found out because they panicked and started an all out search for Werner.

Of course, Lalo might have figured it out eventually.  He reminds me of Mike, with his binoculars and refreshments on a stakeout.  He also took detailed notes on license plates and comings and goings and drew a diagram of the compound.   He is a real threat to Gus, a Salamanca with a brain and patience.  

I wonder how much Nacho is telling Fring, with Lalo around.  Did he warn him that Lalo knew about the chicken farm?  I wonder who, if anyone, Nacho is loyal to now.  I think he know Lalo is a threat, and might see Fring as a source of protection.  Then again, he might help Lalo against Fring to try to get on his good side.   

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, the Salamancas found out because they panicked and started an all out search for Werner.

Of course, Lalo might have figured it out eventually.  He reminds me of Mike, with his binoculars and refreshments on a stakeout.  He also took detailed notes on license plates and comings and goings and drew a diagram of the compound.   He is a real threat to Gus, a Salamanca with a brain and patience.  

I wonder how much Nacho is telling Fring, with Lalo around.  Did he warn him that Lalo knew about the chicken farm?  I wonder who, if anyone, Nacho is loyal to now.  I think he know Lalo is a threat, and might see Fring as a source of protection.  Then again, he might help Lalo against Fring to try to get on his good side.   

That's the point. Every day the lab is not producing is another day Don Eladio can find out about it, and start a war, before Gus has complete ability to defend himself. Hence, the haste,  which, yes , ironically allows Lalo to have a phone conversation with Werner.

Now the Salamancas, in the form of Lalo  has wind of something important. Does he tell Eladio, or does he try to seize it from Gus, without Eladio's knowledge? This could go many different ways.

[Bryce Lynch]

39 minutes ago, Bannon said:

That's the point. Every day the lab is not producing is another day Don Eladio can find out about it, and start a war, before Gus has complete ability to defend himself. Hence, the haste,  which, yes , ironically allows Lalo to have a phone conversation with Werner.

Now the Salamancas, in the form of Lalo  has wind of something important. Does he tell Eladio, or does he try to seize it from Gus, without Eladio's knowledge? This could go many different ways.

Yeah.  I wonder what Lalo meant when he "joked" that Eladio wants bad blood between Fring and the Salamancas and floated the idea of overthrowing him.   Was he setting a trap?  Was he feeling out Gus, to see if he might go along?  Hector clearly does not have a lot of respect for Eladio, and Fring has ample motive to want him dead.   Could Lalo be suggesting they join together as co-belligerents against their common enemy?

As you said, it could go a lot of different ways. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[PeterPirate]

One positive payoff from the Werner storyline is we know that Gus completes his lab and Gale is able to make a 97%-grade product.  I believe the Salamancas and the entire cartel do not become aware of his independent operations until Walt comes along--otherwise they would have taken steps to stop him or take a piece for themselves.  So we can look forward to seeing Gus win out over Lalo and the cartel next season.  

In addition, Lalo and Saul will cross paths, but without Saul learning Gus' identity.  That is going to take some serious yarn-spinning.  Something else to look forward to. 

And Gale's karaoke singing is much easier on the ears than Ernesto's.  When Netflix loads season 4 of BCS, I hope they add a "Skip Ernie" option.  

Edited October 10, 2018 by PeterPirate

[Bryce Lynch]

23 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

One positive payoff from the Werner storyline is we know that Gus completes his lab and Gale is able to make a 97%-grade product.  I believe the Salamancas and the entire cartel do not become aware of his independent operations until Walt comes along--otherwise they would have taken steps to stop him or take a piece for themselves.  So we can look forward to seeing Gus win out over Lalo and the cartel next season.  

In addition, Lalo and Saul will cross paths, but without Saul learning Gus' identity.  That is going to take some serious yarn-spinning.  Something else to look forward to. 

And Gale's karaoke singing is much easier on the ears than Ernesto's.  When Netflix loads season 4 of BCS, I hope they add a "Skip Ernie" option.  

Saul might know Fring's identity early in the BB timeline, but just doesn't let on to Walt and Jesse that he does.  I wonder if Nacho and Saul (and possibly Mike and Gus) conspire to get Lalo sent to prison, somehow.  

It would have been funny if Gale walked into the Karaoke bar and everyone in the place called out, "Gale!" like when Norm arrived at Cheers. :)

My theory is that Chuck's condition was the result of being exposed to concentrated doses of Ernie's singing.  When he wakes up next to Jimmy in the morning he discovers that EM radiation now causes him severe pain, and Jimmy never gets his pancakes.  

[Bannon]

30 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

One positive payoff from the Werner storyline is we know that Gus completes his lab and Gale is able to make a 97%-grade product.  I believe the Salamancas and the entire cartel do not become aware of his independent operations until Walt comes along--otherwise they would have taken steps to stop him or take a piece for themselves.  So we can look forward to seeing Gus win out over Lalo and the cartel next season.  

In addition, Lalo and Saul will cross paths, but without Saul learning Gus' identity.  That is going to take some serious yarn-spinning.  Something else to look forward to. 

And Gale's karaoke singing is much easier on the ears than Ernesto's.  When Netflix loads season 4 of BCS, I hope they add a "Skip Ernie" option.  

Tuco has to get out soon, and neither he,  or Hector are aware that the old fart Tuco beat up works for Gus. Lalo, of course, doesn't know that Gus' number 1 assistant is the guy Tuco beat up, earning a prison sentence. Nacho, with a more complete picture,  is just trying to escape. Many, many, layers to work through.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Tuco has to get out soon, and neither he,  or Hector are aware that the old fart Tuco beat up works for Gus. Lalo, of course, doesn't know that Gus' number 1 assistant is the guy Tuco beat up, earning a prison sentence. Nacho, with a more complete picture,  is just trying to escape. Many, many, layers to work through.

I think the writers may have sent the Cousins back to Mexico so that they wouldn't notice that the guy who Tuco beat up and they threatened was now working for Gus.  

I agree that Nacho is just trying to escape with his life and his father's life.  I wonder which side, if any, he will take to try to accomplish this.  Fring would seem more likely to help him escape.  The Salamancas are old school and brutal, and would never let him go. Of course, he might go along with Lalo, to get an opportunity to sneak off to Manitoba with his Dad.  

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think the writers may have sent the Cousins back to Mexico so that they wouldn't notice that the guy who Tuco beat up and they threatened was now working for Gus.  

I agree that Nacho is just trying to escape with his life and his father's life.  I wonder which side, if any, he will take to try to accomplish this.  Fring would seem more likely to help him escape.  The Salamancas are old school and brutal, and would never let him go. Of course, he might go along with Lalo, to get an opportunity to sneak off to Manitoba with his Dad.  

I really think Nacho's only chance is to skim enough off the top, and make a break for Canada with Pop. Now that Nacho is observing things, skimming is really dangerous. Nacho has got to make his move ASAP.

[ShadowFacts]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think the writers may have sent the Cousins back to Mexico so that they wouldn't notice that the guy who Tuco beat up and they threatened was now working for Gus.  

I agree that Nacho is just trying to escape with his life and his father's life.  I wonder which side, if any, he will take to try to accomplish this.  Fring would seem more likely to help him escape.  The Salamancas are old school and brutal, and would never let him go. Of course, he might go along with Lalo, to get an opportunity to sneak off to Manitoba with his Dad.  

Fring told Nacho he was his now.  I don't see him willingly let his assets go.  I might have previously thought Mike could be of some help/advice, but not likely anymore after the Werner fiasco. 

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Fring told Nacho he was his now.  I don't see him willingly let his assets go.  I might have previously thought Mike could be of some help/advice, but not likely anymore after the Werner fiasco. 

If he can get Nacho to do something very valuable for him (e.g. setup Lalo) I could see Fring agreeing to let him go, in exchange.  Plus, Nacho's value to Fring might not be as big as we think.  What is Fring going to do, tell Lalo or the Cousins that Nacho switched the pills?  How does Fring know this and why didn't he tell them earlier?  "Oh, so you've been blackmailing the guy who set up Tio Hector to be a double agent against us for you."  Wouldn't they kill Fring along with Nacho?  Besides, they Fring has no proof (that I know of) and they probably trust Nacho more than Fring.

[ShadowFacts]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If he can get Nacho to do something very valuable for him (e.g. setup Lalo) I could see Fring agreeing to let him go, in exchange.  Plus, Nacho's value to Fring might not be as big as we think.  What is Fring going to do, tell Lalo or the Cousins that Nacho switched the pills?  How does Fring know this and why didn't he tell them earlier?  "Oh, so you've been blackmailing the guy who set up Tio Hector to be a double agent against us for you."  Wouldn't they kill Fring along with Nacho?  Besides, they Fring has no proof (that I know of) and they probably trust Nacho more than Fring.

Fring does know, but I don't know if he'd care to prove, that Hector did not have his medication on board, we learned that when he had his own doctor go in and examine Hector in the dark and look at his records.  Fring can make Nacho do whatever he wants, whatever that may be.  Nacho is afraid of being outed to the Salamancas because they are psycho killers.  I don't think Gus needs to actually act on his knowledge, he has Nacho over a barrel. 

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Fring does know, but I don't know if he'd care to prove, that Hector did not have his medication on board, we learned that when he had his own doctor go in and examine Hector in the dark and look at his records.  Fring can make Nacho do whatever he wants, whatever that may be.  Nacho is afraid of being outed to the Salamancas because they are psycho killers.  I don't think Gus needs to actually act on his knowledge, he has Nacho over a barrel. 

But, at what point does Nacho call Fring's bluff?  So, far, except for having to be shot and left in the desert, the arrangement has worked out well for Nacho.  He got a promotion and has put away a lot of cash.  

But, if Fring demands he do more unpleasant things, he might push back.  Again, who are the Salamancas going to believe, their loyal underling, Nacho, or their arch rival Gus?  They might just kill them both to be sure, but that creates a mutually assured destruction scenario for both Gus and Nacho.  

[PeterPirate]

Nacho has the ID cards needed to live in Canada, I don't think that is a long-term solution to his problem.  He and his father wouldn't have much of a life there all themselves.  And Nacho still has family back in Mexico.  His father refused to even speak to Hector until Nacho brought them up.  Werner went quietly to protect his wife.  Nacho is going to have to make the same sacrifice.

Saul's reference to Nacho and Lalo in BB makes sense if the cartel finally learns that Hector's near-demise was due to Nacho, but doesn't learn about Gus' knowledge. 

When Gus meets with Juan Bolsa and the twins, Mike isn't there.  I wonder if the cartel ever learns that Mike worked for Gus.  If Lalo was semi-serious of trying to get Gus to turn against Don Eladio, he might not inform the cartel of what he learned about Gus and Mike.  

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Fring does know, but I don't know if he'd care to prove, that Hector did not have his medication on board, we learned that when he had his own doctor go in and examine Hector in the dark and look at his records.  Fring can make Nacho do whatever he wants, whatever that may be.  Nacho is afraid of being outed to the Salamancas because they are psycho killers.  I don't think Gus needs to actually act on his knowledge, he has Nacho over a barrel. 

Nacho, I think, is smart enough to know that there is small chance of survival while caught between Gus, Lalo, and soon Tuco. He's got to get out, without assistance from any of those people. Hopefully, he has a car, fully fueled, in somebody else's name, hidden somewhere in Albuquerque, and a large amount of cash to take with him. Hopefully, his dad will agree to go as well, and there aren't any extended family members they are close to.

[Bannon]

16 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Nacho has the ID cards needed to live in Canada, I don't think that is a long-term solution to his problem.  He and his father wouldn't have much of a life there all themselves.  And Nacho still has family back in Mexico.  His father refused to even speak to Hector until Nacho brought them up.  Werner went quietly to protect his wife.  Nacho is going to have to make the same sacrifice.

Saul's reference to Nacho and Lalo in BB makes sense if the cartel finally learns that Hector's near-demise was due to Nacho, but doesn't learn about Gus' knowledge. 

When Gus meets with Juan Bolsa and the twins, Mike isn't there.  I wonder if the cartel ever learns that Mike worked for Gus.  If Lalo was semi-serious of trying to get Gus to turn against Don Eladio, he might not inform the cartel of what he learned about Gus and Mike.  

Well, a day will come when Mike, Gus, and Jesse take a cartel plane to Mexico, and eventually Eladio's house. The cartel is aware of Mike when they start trying to hijack the Pollo Hermanos trucks.

I also think Mike's story is essentially over, now, and going forward he should be used to tell Nacho's story, and how Sol gets enmeshed in the drug trade.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, at what point does Nacho call Fring's bluff?  So, far, except for having to be shot and left in the desert, the arrangement has worked out well for Nacho.  He got a promotion and has put away a lot of cash.  

But, if Fring demands he do more unpleasant things, he might push back.  Again, who are the Salamancas going to believe, their loyal underling, Nacho, or their arch rival Gus?  They might just kill them both to be sure, but that creates a mutually assured destruction scenario for both Gus and Nacho.  

Nacho isn't so stupid as to try to call any bluff, or cross Fring in the slightest.  He saw Arturo die, that's not going to be forgotten.  As to the Salamancas, I doubt he's going to mess with them any further, after having failed in both of his attempts to get Tuco and Hector out of the way.  Unless he's suicidal. 

[LoneHaranguer]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

One positive payoff from the Werner storyline is we know that Gus completes his lab and Gale is able to make a 97%-grade product.  I believe the Salamancas and the entire cartel do not become aware of his independent operations until Walt comes along--otherwise they would have taken steps to stop him or take a piece for themselves.

Why would they care if the "chicken farmer" wants to spend a fortune to make a product they hold in such contempt? If Gus's operation is a bust, so be it; if he's successful, they can cut themselves in then.

[benteen]

26 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Even if/when they fill in all of the gaps between BCS as it leads into BB, that doesn't mean the series can't continue in present day when Saul works at Cinnabon.

I am beginning to think it would have been much better to have had Howard "off" himself after the Jimmy talk.  I don't know what more they can do with Howard now.  Things are looking up for his law firm, big deal.

 

They could have had Howard pull himself out of financial difficulty by taking on Los Pollos Hermanos as a client.  THAT would have been an exciting development for his character and it would be far better than the next to nothing they are using the character for now.

This show put Nacho on the shelf for most of the back half of this season despite being the most riveting storyline and have no idea how to use Howard.  They gave Howard an interesting set-up after Jimmy tells him to get his act together.  We don't see him for the rest of the season except for a single season where he tells us that HHM is back (this happened off-camera of course).

Edited October 10, 2018 by benteen

[Tikichick]

5 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Even if/when they fill in all of the gaps between BCS as it leads into BB, that doesn't mean the series can't continue in present day when Saul works at Cinnabon.

I am beginning to think it would have been much better to have had Howard "off" himself after the Jimmy talk.  I don't know what more they can do with Howard now.  Things are looking up for his law firm, big deal.

Maybe the writers aren't so bereft of imagination as you say you are in regards to Howard. 

[Bryce Lynch]

43 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Why would they care if the "chicken farmer" wants to spend a fortune to make a product they hold in such contempt? If Gus's operation is a bust, so be it; if he's successful, they can cut themselves in then.

The exact origin of their dispute was unclear, but in BB there seemed to be a lot of tension between the cartel and Gus over him producing his own meth, instead of importing cartel product.  Gus offered to pay the cartel $50 million to end their relationship and the flatly declined.  How much of the killings and truck hijackings were due to Gus trying to be independent and how much was due to him protecting Walter White was not clear to me.  

They don't hold crystal meth in contempt, at this stage.  Gus sold them on the idea many years earlier and Eladio embraced it, while ordering Hector to kill Gus's partner.  

15 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Even if/when they fill in all of the gaps between BCS as it leads into BB, that doesn't mean the series can't continue in present day when Saul works at Cinnabon.

I am beginning to think it would have been much better to have had Howard "off" himself after the Jimmy talk.  I don't know what more they can do with Howard now.  Things are looking up for his law firm, big deal.

I am thinking maybe Howard and HHM get mixed up with Los Pollos Hermanos and/or Madrigal Electromotive. 

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Why would they care if the "chicken farmer" wants to spend a fortune to make a product they hold in such contempt? If Gus's operation is a bust, so be it; if he's successful, they can cut themselves in then.

I suppose.  But in his meeting with Juan Bolsa and the twins, Gus only admitted that he sometimes did business with "local suppliers".  No mention of his own production operation.  

 

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

Well, a day will come when Mike, Gus, and Jesse take a cartel plane to Mexico, and eventually Eladio's house. The cartel is aware of Mike when they start trying to hijack the Pollo Hermanos trucks.

Maybe the cartel only saw Mike as just another hired bodyguard.  I doubt anyone outside the Salamanca family would care enough to know about the person responsible for sending Tuco to prison to recognize him by face.  And anyone who encountered Mike in an LPH truck didn't live to tell the tale.    

*****

Patrick Fabian's IMDB page lists several projects he's been in over the past year.  Short of some unexpected twist, I think Howard's story arc is essentially complete.  Which is fine with me.  In a franchise about awful people, Howard Hamlin has been a beacon of goodness, along with Hank and Flynn.  

Edited October 10, 2018 by PeterPirate

[Eulipian 5k]

21 hours ago, scenario said:

Stringing someone along knowing that they'll never get what they want qualifies to me. Giving someone what they want instead of what they need can be abuse. , yes 

It may be manipulative or passive aggressive. Manipulative in that he would hope Jimmy "goes another way", like give up the dream of joining HHM (as a partner!!) and move on; but you're trying to get him to make the decision, on his own. Passive/aggressive in that you are trying to avoid slapping Jimmy with all his faults. Jimmy really thought he would be added to the firm's letterhead, that's not asking your brother for help, it's an out and out appeal to nepotism. Jimmy is not Chuck's son, (like Howard of hHm, Chuck does not have the same responsibility to his adult brother).

Protecting a firm that you built that has many people's fate at stake is not abusive or scummy, it's business. Don't get it twisted, Jimmy.

[Bannon]

38 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I suppose.  But in his meeting with Juan Bolsa and the twins, Gus only admitted that he sometimes did business with "local suppliers".  No mention of his own production operation.  

 

Maybe the cartel only saw Mike as just another hired bodyguard.  I doubt anyone outside the Salamanca family would care enough to know about the person responsible for sending Tuco to prison to recognize him by face.  And anyone who encountered Mike in an LPH truck didn't live to tell the tale.    

*****

Patrick Fabian's IMDB page lists several projects he's been in over the past year.  Short of some unexpected twist, I think Howard's story arc is essentially complete.  Which is fine with me.  In a franchise about awful people, Howard Hamlin has been a beacon of goodness, along with Hank and Flynn.  

 

Oh, there is certainly nothing awful about Howard, but I would't call him a beacon of goodness, and I don't think he begins to approach the flawed, meaning very human, nobility of Hank.

Nacho's done awful things, but I would like to see one of the characters in the Gilligan universe,who has done awful things, reform himself. That might have been Jesse, I suppose,  but I don't know.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Bannon

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

It may be manipulative or passive aggressive. Manipulative in that he would hope Jimmy "goes another way", like give up the dream of joining HHM (as a partner!!) and move on; but you're trying to get him to make the decision, on his own. Passive/aggressive in that you are trying to avoid slapping Jimmy with all his faults. Jimmy really thought he would be added to the firm's letterhead, that's not asking your brother for help, it's an out and out appeal to nepotism. Jimmy is not Chuck's son, (like Howard of hHm, Chuck does not have the same responsibility to his adult brother).

Protecting a firm that you built that has many people's fate at stake is not abusive or scummy, it's business. Don't get it twisted, Jimmy.

Sure it's business, which is why a person who isn't behaving awfully just tells Jimmy that he isn't ever getting a job at HHM. A person behaving in an awful manner lies to Jimmy, leaving him to think that his employability may change someday.The fact that Jimmy has done worse things doesn't give Chuck license to lie to him.

[Eulipian 5k]

I also now realize that the Board was looking at a file that says the guy that sponsored Jimmy before the Bar was the one that tried to have him disbarred, and Jimmy didn't try to reconcile that during his first appearance. They, ABQ's law community, all knew what the law meant to Chuck.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The exact origin of their dispute was unclear, but in BB there seemed to be a lot of tension between the cartel and Gus over him producing his own meth, instead of importing cartel product.  Gus offered to pay the cartel $50 million to end their relationship and the flatly declined.  How much of the killings and truck hijackings were due to Gus trying to be independent and how much was due to him protecting Walter White was not clear to me.  

They don't hold crystal meth in contempt, at this stage.  Gus sold them on the idea many years earlier and Eladio embraced it, while ordering Hector to kill Gus's partner.  

I am thinking maybe Howard and HHM get mixed up with Los Pollos Hermanos and/or Madrigal Electromotive. 

Eladio doesn't want Gus producing his own supply, because then he doesn't need Eladio,  and even if Eladio demands a cut, Eladio can never be sure that Gus is telling the truth about what the total revenues are.

[scenario]

Werner works with explosives on a regular basis.  His wife gets a message that he was killed in a terrible explosion and we're sending the pieces of the body that we can find home.

How long did the crew drive around before they got to the bar? If they drove around for 4 or 5 hours, they would have no idea how close their work site was to the bar. Plus, they are working on a secret project. Legit companies do build things in secret to keep them away from the competition. 

It is difficult to find good workers. If Gus killed every worker who made one mistake, even a bad one, the quality of his employees would go down. How likely is he to find someone as good as Mike? 

5 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I also now realize that the Board was looking at a file that says the guy that sponsored Jimmy before the Bar was the one that tried to have him disbarred, and Jimmy didn't try to reconcile that during his first appearance. They, ABQ's law community, all knew what the law meant to Chuck.

They also knew that the guy who sponsored Jimmy was in good mental health and the guy who tried to have him disbarred was in poor mental health. How many people with mental issues believe that the people who are trying to help them are really trying to kill them. 

The people at the board didn't know if Jimmy was a crook or if Chuck was so far gone that he was imagining it all. 

[Bryce Lynch]

21 hours ago, scenario said:

Stringing someone along knowing that they'll never get what they want qualifies to me. Giving someone what they want instead of what they need can be abuse. , yes 

To me its like when partner A keeps telling Partner B, "I love you,  We'll get married someday and have lots of kids." But when partner B finally pressures partner A into saying what they really plan the answer is "You really thought I'd marry someone as ugly and stupid as you."

Chuck pretended that he was trying to get Jimmy a job as a lawyer for years and years. Stringing someone along can be abusive.  

Chuck never strung Jimmy along about being a lawyer at HHM.  Moments after Jimmy told Chuck he passed the bar and asked to be a lawyer at HHM, Chuck sent Howard to tell Jimmy it was never going to happen.  The only other time Jimmy thought he would be working for HHM was when Chuck proposed moving Sandpiper to HHM.  He let Jimmy think it could happen for all of one night, when again he had Howard tell Jimmy it was not happening.  

He lied about why Jimmy wasn't hired and who made the decision.  But he didn't string him along.  Jimmy thought he had a chance to an attorney at HHM for a total of less than 24 hours.   

[Eulipian 5k]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

A person behaving in an awful manner lies to Jimmy, leaving him to think that his employability may change someday.The fact that Jimmy has done worse things doesn't give Chuck license to lie to him.

There's an art gallery in NYC named OK Harris. Early in his career the owner would tell artists he didn't want to show, "Your work's okay by me, if it's okay with Harris", and of course,  "It just wasn't okay with Harris". Can't we expect Jimmy to get the message that the M in HHM would have hired him as a lawyer if he wanted to? Who's lying to whom?

Also, as a younger brother, they always take license to lie to you; like trying to convince you you were adopted.

[scenario]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Chuck never strung Jimmy along about being a lawyer at HHM.  Moments after Jimmy told Chuck he passed the bar and asked to be a lawyer at HHM, Chuck sent Howard to tell Jimmy it was never going to happen.  The only other time Jimmy thought he would be working for HHM was when Chuck proposed moving Sandpiper to HHM.  He let Jimmy think it could happen for all of one night, when again he had Howard tell Jimmy it was not happening.  

He lied about why Jimmy wasn't hired and who made the decision.  But he didn't string him along.  Jimmy thought he had a chance to an attorney at HHM for a total of less than 24 hours.   

The fact that Chuck never said that he agreed with Howard would give Jimmy the impression that he disagreed with him. Chuck and Howard gave Jimmy the impression that he might someday earn the right. Chuck could have said that Howard was against hiring Jimmy and that he reluctantly agreed. 

Jimmy essentially took a part time job and spent a lot of his time helping his brother in the hope that he would eventually be hired. Had he known for sure that he would never be hired, he might have done something different. 

[PeterPirate]

I am going to issue a concurring opinion to BryceLynch's take on Chuck's decision about his brother at HHM.  But I am going to frame it using a real-life experience from about a dozen years ago.  One of my cousins and her mother were visiting our house.  This cousin is well-known as a rage-aholic, and my own father refused to speak with her over the last decade of his life.  During the visit she asked me a question.  Not wanting to piss her off, I gave a half-hearted, diplomatically-worded answer.  That set her off.  She went up to her mother, gave her the finger, said "This is what 'Peter' just said to me", and stomped out of the house.  I don't remember what the question was, or what my answer was, but I do know that I was trying to be diplomatic, and my attempt at diplomacy was interpreted as an implication that she was a rage-aholic.  Sometimes you just can't win for losing.  

Whether Chuck had good intentions or not, he was in no-upside situation.  Jimmy was absolutely unqualified to work at HHM and also constituted a huge downside risk.  But giving Jimmy a straight-up "No, we are not going to hire you" could have set Jimmy off and damaged their relationship.  Chuck made the wrong choice in that situation in my opinion, but I understand why he made it, and why others with perfectly good intentions might make the same choice.  After all, just thinking about this particular discussion about Jimmy made me think about that cousin, not about all the other wonderful people in my life.   

Edited October 12, 2018 by PeterPirate

[Bannon]

17 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

There's an art gallery in NYC named OK Harris. Early in his career the owner would tell artists he didn't want to show, "Your work's okay by me, if it's okay with Harris", and of course,  "It just wasn't okay with Harris". Can't we expect Jimmy to get the message that the M in HHM would have hired him as a lawyer if he wanted to? Who's lying to whom?

Also, as a younger brother, they always take license to lie to you; like trying to convince you you were adopted.

Chuck lied continually to his brother, as his brother waited on him hand and foot. It's absolutely contemptible.

10 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I am going to issue a concurring opinion to Bryce's take on Chuck's decision about his brother at HHM.  But I am going to frame it using a real-life experience from about a dozen years ago.  One of my cousins and her mother were visiting our house.  This cousin is well-known as a rage-aholic, and my own father refused to speak with her over the last decade of his life.  During the visit she asked me a question.  Not wanting to piss her off, I gave a half-hearted, diplomatically-worded answer.  That set her off.  She went up to her mother, gave her the finger, said "This is what 'Peter' just said to me", and stomped out of the house.  I don't remember what the question was, or what my answer was, but I do know that I was trying to be diplomatic, and my attempt at diplomacy was interpreted as an implication that she was a rage-aholic.  Sometimes you just can't win for losing.  

Whether Chuck had good intentions or not, he was in no-upside situation.  Jimmy was absolutely unqualified to work at HHM and also constituted a huge downside risk.  But giving Jimmy a straight-up "No, we are not going to hire you" could have set Jimmy off too and damaged their relationship.  I think Chuck made the wrong choice in that situation, but I understand why he made it, and why others with perfectly good intentions might make the same choice.  After all, just thinking about Jimmy made me think about that cousin, not about all the other wonderful people in my life.   

Sorry, Chuck doesn't get to have his brother waiting on him hand and foot, for years, while lying to him about how Chuck views his employability. It's contemptible.

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, scenario said:

The fact that Chuck never said that he agreed with Howard would give Jimmy the impression that he disagreed with him. Chuck and Howard gave Jimmy the impression that he might someday earn the right. Chuck could have said that Howard was against hiring Jimmy and that he reluctantly agreed. 

Jimmy essentially took a part time job and spent a lot of his time helping his brother in the hope that he would eventually be hired. Had he known for sure that he would never be hired, he might have done something different. 

Jimmy started his own practice. He never again spoke of rejoining HHM, except briefly when the Sandpiper case was be shopped to HHM.  He then got a lucrative job with D&M, which he threw in the trash.  The he pursued a partnership with Kim, which has been his obsession since.  

[Eulipian 5k]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

Chuck lied continually to his brother, as his brother waited on him hand and foot. It's absolutely contemptible.

Heh, We just saw Chuck literally waiting on Jimmy hand and foot and shoes off. What did Slippin Jimmy tell his brother after every-single-f#ck-up?... He lied continually, ingrate!

[scenario]

7 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I am going to issue a concurring opinion to Bryce's take on Chuck's decision about his brother at HHM.  But I am going to frame it using a real-life experience from about a dozen years ago.  One of my cousins and her mother were visiting our house.  This cousin is well-known as a rage-aholic, and my own father refused to speak with her over the last decade of his life.  During the visit she asked me a question.  Not wanting to piss her off, I gave a half-hearted, diplomatically-worded answer.  That set her off.  She went up to her mother, gave her the finger, said "This is what 'Peter' just said to me", and stomped out of the house.  I don't remember what the question was, or what my answer was, but I do know that I was trying to be diplomatic, and my attempt at diplomacy was interpreted as an implication that she was a rage-aholic.  Sometimes you just can't win for losing.  

Whether Chuck had good intentions or not, he was in no-upside situation.  Jimmy was absolutely unqualified to work at HHM and also constituted a huge downside risk.  But giving Jimmy a straight-up "No, we are not going to hire you" could have set Jimmy off too and damaged their relationship.  I think Chuck made the wrong choice in that situation, but I understand why he made it, and why others with perfectly good intentions might make the same choice.  After all, just thinking about Jimmy made me think about that cousin, not about all the other wonderful people in my life.   

I had an ex-wife like that. Anything you said would be twisted around if she was in a bad mood.  But eventually you have to tell the truth.

Chuck could have told Jimmy that he believed that Jimmy would just hate working in a big law firm, which is true. Then told Howard to help Jimmy set up his own place.  That way he gets to look like the good guy. I really believe if Jimmy had a small successful law office, there would never be a Saul. More like a slippin Jimmy light. 

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Jimmy started his own practice. He never again spoke of rejoining HHM, except briefly when the Sandpiper case was be shopped to HHM.  He then got a lucrative job with D&M, which he threw in the trash.  The he pursued a partnership with Kim, which has been his obsession since.  

What did the practice do? He took whatever cases that the state would give him for a small fee. That's more like a part time job than a law office.  

[Bannon]

26 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Chuck never strung Jimmy along about being a lawyer at HHM.  Moments after Jimmy told Chuck he passed the bar and asked to be a lawyer at HHM, Chuck sent Howard to tell Jimmy it was never going to happen.  The only other time Jimmy thought he would be working for HHM was when Chuck proposed moving Sandpiper to HHM.  He let Jimmy think it could happen for all of one night, when again he had Howard tell Jimmy it was not happening.  

He lied about why Jimmy wasn't hired and who made the decision.  But he didn't string him along.  Jimmy thought he had a chance to an attorney at HHM for a total of less than 24 hours.   

A lie uncorrected is a continuous lie, especially when the liar obtains benefit from it, especially when the lie is so structured as to give the recipient of the lie reason to think that the condition of something vitally important to the recipient may eventually resolve in the recipient's favor, when that actually is not the case.

[CigarDoug]

9 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I don't think Davis & Main's policy was "no TV ads." In one episode, we saw an ad that they'd used before. IIRC, it was just a voiceover with text on the screen.

They took some of the words from Jimmy's amateur, but well directed, ad and created a new, bland ad with a voiceover and a weird hypnotic background and released it. So, they DID advertise for Sandpiper clients, stealing Jimmy's idea, just made it a horrible ad that looked like it was written by a committee... which it was. That's what pissed Jimmy off, that they made an ad anyway, and a lousy one at that. If they had just said, "No ads", it might have blown over.

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Heh, We just saw Chuck literally waiting on Jimmy hand and foot and shoes off. What did Slippin Jimmy tell his brother after every-single-f#ck-up?... He lied continually, ingrate!

Jimmy's quite often an awful person, which does not mitigate Chuck's awfulness one iota.

[CigarDoug]

6 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

2.  We rarely see Jimmy--or Saul, for that matter--participate in a crime involving an innocent victim.  His moniker, "Slipping Jimmy" does imply there were innocent victims back in Ciero, but we never see them.  I think the Music Store guys were innocent, but to the best of my recollection they were the only ones.   

The Music Store guys got Jimmy to lower his price to one free ad with the promise of buying additional ones, then they ran the ad themselves. So, they were going to rip Jimmy off. He would get nothing from producing their ad.

[Bryce Lynch]

22 minutes ago, scenario said:

I had an ex-wife like that. Anything you said would be twisted around if she was in a bad mood.  But eventually you have to tell the truth.

Chuck could have told Jimmy that he believed that Jimmy would just hate working in a big law firm, which is true. Then told Howard to help Jimmy set up his own place.  That way he gets to look like the good guy. I really believe if Jimmy had a small successful law office, there would never be a Saul. More like a slippin Jimmy light. 

What did the practice do? He took whatever cases that the state would give him for a small fee. That's more like a part time job than a law office.  

Yeah, I guess Jimmy had the right to start at the top of the legal profession, with his shady background, and degree from the University of American Samoa...Go, Land Crabs!

The fact is, no decent firm would have hired Jimmy at that time and it would have been ridiculous for HHM to hire such an awful applicant, when they are turning away much better ones.  

Yes, Chuck should have told Jimmy the truth, but he didn't ruin Jimmy's life with the lie.  

Jimmy's one admirable thing was taking care of Chuck when he was sick, and it would have been nice for Chuck to tell him then, I doubt many people would tell their only living relative and their caretaker a secret like that, in that situation.  

Yes, Chuck should have been honest with Jimmy, though it probably would have crushed him.  But, if that is the worst thing Chuck ever did he was a saint. 

[ShadowFacts]

29 minutes ago, CigarDoug said:

The Music Store guys got Jimmy to lower his price to one free ad with the promise of buying additional ones, then they ran the ad themselves. So, they were going to rip Jimmy off. He would get nothing from producing their ad.

As far as Jimmy not scamming innocent victims, I can't remember what the copier sales guys did that made them "fair game" for Jimmy's heist of the Hummel.  I know he told them they were stupid for wanting to hire him, but I view them as innocent victims whether they cared about their Hummel or not.  They had something of value and he had his co-conspirator bust in and steal it.  He received the proceeds of the sale of stolen goods.