S04.E08: The Mountain And The Viper: Speculation Thread

[Meredith Quill]

Here is a chance to speculate about what events may or may not occur in episode 8 only.

There will be weekly episode spec threads for individual episodes from now on so please either save your thoughts about eps 9 & 10 for those or post them in another appropriate thread.

Readers are welcome to post in here also but no Book Talk please; save that for the Book Talk version of this thread.

 

Thank you.

[Constantinople]

I hope the trial by combat goes something like this.

 

No guesses as to who's Paul Newman.

 

[Meredith Quill]

I'd like it to go like this:

 

[AimingforYoko]

I'm hoping for this:

[Constantinople]

I'd like it to go like this:

 

Tyrion, or someone, better get cracking on inventing gun powder.

Some very minor speculation:

The only episode that encompassed an entire event was the Battle of Blackwater. Even the Red Wedding episode had scenes from Yunkai. Tyrion's trial was only about 1/4 to 1/3 of an episode and Joffrey & Margaery's wedding was only about 1/2.

Therefore, I think there will be some scenes unrelated to the upcoming Ali vs. Liston III fight:

a. Bran - I don't know what it would be, probably more visions or something equally exciting. I'm thinking there will be a Bran scene because there wasn't a Bran scene in S4E7 and I'm guessing there won't be 2 straight Bran free episodes

b. Night's Watch - Probably prep work for the upcoming Wilding invasion/attack and more conflict between Lord Snow and the Thorne in his flesh.

c. Stannis/Davos - Need an update on where they're going and what their plans are.

d. Littlefinger/Sansa - The Lady of the Vale just mooned everyone. A scene about whatever cover story Littlefinger concocts would seem to be in order. I hope we don't have to wait till the next episode.

Not sure about Daenerys or Arya/Hound since we saw them in the previous episode.

Maybe we'll also see how Ramsay plans to use Reek/Theon to capture Moat Callin (sp?).

Edited May 21, 2014 by Constantinople

[Meredith Quill]

Tyrion, or someone, better get cracking on inventing gun powder.

 

Well not literally like that, (for that very reason); to clarify, for it to be as easy & quick as that.

[Constantinople]

Well not literally like that, (for that very reason); to clarify, for it to be as easy & quick as that.

 

 

Well, it would be quite a surprise.  But if this society hasn't invented gun powder after thousands of years, they're not likely to invent it in the next two weeks.

 

There's wildfire.  Throw some on the Mountain's armor and then a match and he'd broil alive.  That would be quick.

 

Of course, that raises two questions:

 

1. Where would Oberyn get the wildfire unless Tyrion stashed a little away for a rainy day?

 

2. Would it be within the rules?  Apparently a flaming a sword is allowed, see Beric Dondarrion vs. the Hound in Season 3 (or perhaps that was just an example of "Your cave roof, your rules").  But I get the sense, based on nothing really, that it's supposed to be a fight using conventional weapons.  On the other hand, if the purpose of the trial is to let the Gods decide, and the Gods let someone sneak wildfire in with their gear to use it during the fight, then the Gods obviously want that person to win.

[Meredith Quill]

Well, it would be quite a surprise.  But if this society hasn't invented gun powder after thousands of years, they're not likely to invent it in the next two weeks.

 

There's wildfire.  Throw some on the Mountain's armor and then a match and he'd broil alive.  That would be quick.

 

Of course, that raises two questions:

 

1. Where would Oberyn get the wildfire unless Tyrion stashed a little away for a rainy day?

 

2. Would it be within the rules?  Apparently a flaming a sword is allowed, see Beric Dondarrion vs. the Hound in Season 3 (or perhaps that was just an example of "Your cave roof, your rules").  But I get the sense, based on nothing really, that it's supposed to be a fight using conventional weapons.  On the other hand, if the purpose of the trial is to let the Gods decide, and the Gods let someone sneak wildfire in with their gear to use it during the fight, then the Gods obviously want that person to win.

Very good spec! I like it.

[TooMuchCoffee]

I have never been this tempted to read the book. Or at least flip through to find the fight scene and read a page or two. But I will resist.  

Two weeks!  We have to wait for two weeks! 

As for the fight, I have confidence in Oberyn.  I'm sure he has a plan. 

 

How about a poison blow dart to the neck?  We've seen that method. There could be an accomplice or Oberyn could have something like that up his sleeve (literally).  I would think that a world traveler like Oberyn would have tried to pick up a few assassin's tricks from the faceless men. 

Edited May 21, 2014 by TooMuchCoffee

[KurlyGrl]

I like the Brad Pitt one.  And why couldn't they have gotten THAT guy to play The Mountain, instead of the person they chose?!?!?!?!

[Conan Troutman]

How about a poison blow dart to the neck?  We've seen that method. There could be an accomplice or Oberyn could have something like that up his sleeve (literally).  I would think that a world traveler like Oberyn would have tried to pick up a few assassin's tricks from the faceless men. 

 

That's exactly what I thought. On the other hand, as cool as that would be, I hope for a more epic sort of a fight, not a quick one like the ones in the videos above. The other two trials we've seen lasted a couple of minutes each, so maybe this one will top them. 

Edited May 22, 2014 by Conan Troutman

[Constantinople]

If I had to guess, which I suppose is why I'm typing this, the trial by combat will be the last scene in the episode.  We'll find out who wins and who loses, but that's it.  The repercussions will be left for another episode, similar to what happened in the episode where Joffrey died.  But that's just a guess based on the idea of stringing out the suspense as long as possible.

[TooMuchCoffee]

 Conan Troutman and Constantinople, I think you're both likely to be correct.  I expect an epic fight scene but I still think that Oberyn has something unexpected in mind. We've had hints about poison and close-quarters fighting that are probably meaningful.

 

We could see several minutes of swordplay with defensive ninja-like movements from Neo, er, Oberyn leading up to a "trick" (but still somehow somewhat within the rules) or secret, hidden weapon finish. If there's any way the Mountain can be disarmed or if Oberyn can duck the M's sword and get underneath him I could see a stab upwards with the razor-sharp dagger he surely has tucked into a boot.  As with Bronn, I'm not sure we'll see a totally honorable fight; it will push the envelope possibly getting Cersei to cry foul forcing a decision by Tywin.

 

Will Oberyn still be wearing that long cloak?  Doesn't it hinder his movement? What's inside - daggers, ninja stars with poisoned tips, Rolex watches?   And I also wouldn't be surprised if the final ruling (especially if Cersei lodges a protest) takes another episode to resolve. 

 

I have wondered if someone like Jaime (or Loras?) might leap into the fray to assist Oberyn.  We need a list of rules!

 

I'm excited about the fight but I think this might be the first predictable outcome this show has given us. I really don't expect Tyrion to die and that probably means Oberyn wins... or doesn't lose. 

[CorgiNarnia]

With this two week break, I feel like this is really building up the trial by combat to epic proportions. The show better not let us down. A quick Mountain win would be a letdown. I really don't know what to expect anymore. We have been told the Mountain is the realm's best fighter, but he's mostly mowing down regular folks during these battles, right? He wouldn't normally face an elite fighter that I think Oberyn is (just with the clues of him being well-travelled, knowing poisons, being familiar with Unsullied). I have to think the Mountain has the advantage. He has to just land one blow, it seems. I hope Oberyn does something underhanded to win, like blow some powder in his face to blind him. Maybe uses Ellaria somehow? Or if he loses, I hope he takes the Mountain down with him.

[Mz Anthrope]

I think a lot of those The Mountain is up against are intimidated by him (from my side of the fence, COMPLETELY understandable) so much that all he really needs to do is tromp in there and stab/whatever.  I think the fear of his opponents is their initial downfall.  I think he gets a lot of wins for this very reason. 

 

When an opponent uses their brains (Loras using a mare in heat) or aren't as intimidated (the Hound defending Loras), he isn't as successful.  I am *hoping* that Oberyn with all his sophistication, knowledge, and ... let's face it... desire to kill The Mountain, it's going to be much more interesting and equal than him jamming a big ol' piece of metal into the guts of prisoners/target practice.  I'd like to think that Oberyn's going to win. 

[Haldebrandt]

We have been told the Mountain is the realm's best fighter, but he's mostly mowing down regular folks during these battles, right?

I don't recall anyone saying he was the best, but Bronn made it clear that his sheer size, resulting strength, and surprising speed place him among them.

[Ace]

I hope its a good fight. So far all the mano a mano fights have been great, except the unlikely ending to Jorahs fight. Oberon could use something innovative to counteract the size and strength difference. Tyrion's double headed axe would work, but full sized. With a weapon like that Oberon could crush bone and pierce armour.

[CletusMusashi]

Tyrion's axe is terrible. Even for Tyrion. It has no reach, no leverage, and at the range that it actually is semi-useful, whichever edge you're not using is dangerously close to your face and neck. I always thought that if Tyrion were going to use a short double-blade weapon, it should be a short spear, with a blade at each end. With his stubby little arms, he could pull off spins with it on a crowded battlefield that specifically gave a (partial) advantage to his size. And anyway, Podrick has it.

 

But, best weapon for Oberyn to use... It's going to be a "coming at each other from a distance" scenerio, so it needs enough reach to be competitive against a six foot long greatsword. I'm ruling out weapons that you have to swing with real muscle power, like greataxes, because a trained warrior guy the size of Mountain of the Week is always going to have better control of a long heavy weapon than a much smaller guy. I also don't think a spear is the answer. Even though there were some great spears designed for fighting guys who had armor and big fucking swords, ultimately the big fucking swords only faded because they were so much more expensive than the spears. During the era that the ahlspiess, for example, was a popular spear for killing knights in plate armor, the two-handed sword continued to be used, largely because it was a far more versatile weapon than one tends to assume. So I don't think you're really going to surprise Gregor by poking a sharp stick at him. Especially in one on one combat.

 

Spears are most effective when you have a dozen of them stabbing at one guy on a crowded battlefield where there's no room to dodge. Swords are most effective when there's room to circle around and change which direction the fight is happening from. Modern fencing (the current rules of which are more Victorian-and-later than Renaissance,) has forgotten that. The Mountain is not a modern fencer. 

 

If Oberyn can talk The Mountain into fighting with no armor,a lot of options open up. Defeating him with a whip, for example, would be both awesome and hilarious. But that's not gonna happen. For one thing, they're very rapidly running out of seven foot tall actors, so Greg's probably going to need full visored plate armor to cover up the fact that he's suddenly a black guy or a nineteen year old ginger or the midgets from Joffrey's wedding standing on top of each other.

 

So my vote is Oberyn uses a staff. Quick, long, with more surprising angles of attack than a sword or axe or whatever, so you can smack and jab and trip and hook and block from all over the place extremely quickly... and if multiple weapons are allowed you can always finish Mount Gregor off with a dagger.

 

Either that,or he just goes retro, and catches him with the old "Candy-gram for Mongo!" schtick.

Edited May 26, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[TooMuchCoffee]

CletusMusashi, borrowing Gandalf's staff is a great idea.  

Oberyn evades and stays on defense with a bit of rope-a-dope and martial arts moves.

David defeated Goliath with a stone. An effective take-down can come from any small, properly landed object.- especially if poison is involved.  

And that's really all I want to know: is poison involved and, if so, what is the fallout from using poison (if anyone even suspects)?

Edited May 26, 2014 by TooMuchCoffee

[Conan Troutman]

Not sure if poison is officially allowed. Let's assume it's not (or he simply doesn't want to use it blatantly because it diminishes the glory you can get from a victory): If he does poison the tip of a blade or dagger, how could anyone really know? It's probably better to use a not-so-deadly one, because it surely would look suspicious if the Mountain were to fall over dead from a little scratch. So you use something that slows him down a little, just enough to give you the advantage. At least that's what I would do in his stead. 

 

I agree that a staff would be a great choice. Maybe not a wooden one though, the Mountain would just cut that thing in half. But a solid metal staff with two sharp blades seems like a very effective weapon against him and Oberyn seems like the type that could handle such a thing. You can still apply a little poison to the blades if you want to. Either way, it should be a good defensive weapon. Let the Mountain tire himself out, block and/or dodge his attacks and occasionally try to hit him. Then you either go for the final blow or let him die a death of a thousand cuts or some combination thereof, when he's finally wounded enough.  

 

Another option I would consider is two-handed fighting. Two smaller swords would be equally effective as a staff and would look equally awesome. BTW, this reminds me of Star Wars: KotoR. Maybe he's got a lightsaber? 

Edited May 26, 2014 by Conan Troutman

[CletusMusashi]

Historically, two weapon combos weren't really a successful thing. Rapier fighters would often keep a dagger in their left hand in case the fight clenched up, and Miyamoto was able to show off with his two sword style simply because he was a six foot tall monster fighting little four foot eleven guys in 16th century Japan, but usually holding a weapon in two hands makes it faster, harder hitting, more secure, and allows you use one with better reach. The only thing that really proved a competitive use of the other hand was a shield. Maybe a really quick spear and shield style like Grey Worm uses? The Mountain's no stranger to spears, though. If he wasn't good at using his sword against them, he'd be dead.

Granted, we've seen weapon combos used successfully on the show. Ramsay took on a whole room with hand axe and dagger, but it was a crowded room where the other guys might not have had room to use their swords properly. And Karl McRapypants held off Jon Snow's sword by using two daggers. But Karl wasn't just very experienced with daggers. He was also, much as I hate to say anything remotely flattering about him, a big, strong guy, and while Jon Snow is certainly no weakling, he doesn't seem to be known for having an abnormal amount of brute thug-power. Using a couple of one-handed weapons to block Jon Snow simply isn't the same as using them to block The Mountain.

Ideally, if I were Oberyn, I would bring a mare in heat with me, just in case Gregor decided to ride. I would find out what all of Gregor's favorite toys were, buy replicas of them, and duct-tape them all over said mare. I would wear a suit of armor with twenty-foot spikes on it to keep him from reaching me. And as my primary weapon I would use a catapult. With poison.

Whatever object he uses to fight with, I expect a lot of psychological warfare. Using Musashi as a historical example again, he was fond of things like showing up as late as possible for duels and being as over-the-top insulting as possible right before the fight, because he considered an enraged enemy preferable to a disciplined one. I expect similar shenanigans from Oberyn, although, let's face it, we've seen an enraged Mountain before and he still came pretty close to killing Ser Loras.

Maybe just give him a whole bunch of kittens and puppies the night before? And hope that he eats so many of them that he can't move properly?

[TooMuchCoffee]

I didn't know the reference to Musashi so I looked him up.  I feel several degrees higher on the cool scale now. Or maybe it's the nerd scale if there's a difference. 

[Tryangle]

I didn't know the reference to Musashi so I looked him up.  I feel several degrees higher on the cool scale now. Or maybe it's the nerd scale if there's a difference. 

 

I love this whole thread speculating on the various fighting styles that should be considered by the combatants. It's like I'm reading through the dialogue of The Deadliest Warrior or something. Genuinely fascinating stuff, this.

 

Dorne's sigil includes a spear, so it stands to reason that a spear could be considered by Oberyn (although as mentioned above, its effectiveness could be questioned).

[Mz Anthrope]

I can see long spear.  It stands to reason (imo) that Oberyn would want the advantage of distance as once the Mountain is ON you, there's a lot less hope for your own success.  If he can mind fuck him and keep him at a distance, this should be good.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Will Oberyn still be wearing that long cloak?  Doesn't it hinder his movement? What's inside - daggers, ninja stars with poisoned tips, Rolex watches?

 

Well, that would be one way to get the Indiana Jones style of fighting. You'll get posturing from the Mountain on one end of the combat zone, and Oberyn on the other looking unconcerned. Signal is given, the Mountain charges, and Oberyn just flicks some poisoned ninja stars at him and the Mountain falls dead to the ground before he even reaches Oberyn. :)

 

I do wonder what (if any) rules exist around the fight. Armour? Swords? Horses? Anything goes? Do the combatants have to agree on the method of combat?

[millahnna]

I don't recall anyone saying he was the best, but Bronn made it clear that his sheer size, resulting strength, and surprising speed place him among them.

 

I kind of became convinced when he cut his poor horse in half.  Speed seems potentially useful against him since he's so large but one slip and, well, he cut a frelling horse in half. 

[Maximum Taco]

 

Not sure if poison is officially allowed. Let's assume it's not (or he simply doesn't want to use it blatantly because it diminishes the glory you can get from a victory): If he does poison the tip of a blade or dagger, how could anyone really know? It's probably better to use a not-so-deadly one, because it surely would look suspicious if the Mountain were to fall over dead from a little scratch. So you use something that slows him down a little, just enough to give you the advantage. At least that's what I would do in his stead.

 

Do we think he's worried about glory?

 

As far as we've been led to believe this is a revenge killing. I don't think Oberyn is worried about glory, or honour, or Tyrion and his innocence. He wants to kill the Mountain cause the Mountain killed and raped his sister. Personally speaking if someone did that to my sister, I'd probably want them to suffer as much as possible as well.

 

A slow death from a million cuts would be much more satisfying for revenge than a painless one by a quick acting poison, or a stab to the brain or heart. That's mercy, not revenge.

[TooMuchCoffee]

 Is it Sunday yet?  

[Meredith Quill]

 Is it Sunday yet?  

It is where I live! ;)

[JulesKikiCobb]

Since this is in the official season four trailer, I am hoping it's not spoily...but I see Oberyn doing something interesting at 1:09.

 

 

 

 

 

Not sure if that is even The Mountain he is fighting; it's just a few seconds. I'm going to guess that Oberyn enters the ring with one think: "disarm, disarm, disarm." And then he totally busts out the Dornish martial-artsy goodness.

 

Edited to embed video.

Edited June 1, 2014 by JulesKikiCobb

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I think the trailer clip is from the Trial by Combat.

 

Hope Oberyn can hit below the belt, taking out The Mountain's legs.

 

Then Finish him.

 

God I'm so excited for this fight!!!