X-Men: Dark Phoenix (2019)

[Bruinsfan]

The people behind Thor: Ragnarok gave us a Hela that actually looked like the comics version, so nothing's impossible at this point.

[Dandesun]

1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

The people behind Thor: Ragnarok gave us a Hela that actually looked like the comics version, so nothing's impossible at this point.

That is true and I was pleasantly surprised that they did that with Hela because that look is so iconic.

I don't know if Stryfe's 'made of knives' armor is iconic... it certainly isn't in the same way but... well, hey, Marvel has pulled off a lot of things I never thought they'd be able to. I'd really like to see them work some of that magic on the X-Men.

[IWantCandy71]

On 4/17/2019 at 10:51 AM, Wiendish Fitch said:

Oh, my, I have another thing to gripe about (I can tell you're all thrilled)...

Why in the name of Stan Lee does Magneto not have his signature grey hair yet?!?!? If James McAvoy can shave his head to play Xavier, then Michael Fassbender can get his hair dyed and call it a day! 

Except doesn't this version explain that Xavier lost his hair because of something to do with Apocalypse in the last movie ? I've forgotten. I just seem to remember the hair loss isn't because of age. Fassbender is definitely Robert Redford-ing it with the cragginess, but in 92, Eric is only about sixty(guessing, since he's a young boy during WWII). Plus, the mutants age a lot slower. So I'm good with it, James McAvoy looks okay bald, I'm not so sure about Fassbender. I can't quite picture him as a silver fox type.

This movie wasn't good. It was still a better time than Captain Marvel, but that's not saying much. I mean, at least with X Men I like, and have even loved, some of the characters, and I was/am invested in some of their stories.

James and Michael both seemed so over it all, and who can blame them. Jennifer Lawrence did as well, but she acts like that in every movie she's in, so I can't tell a difference.  It was just so bland and lacked so much energy.  And the best part of the X Men franchise-any Erik and Charles interactions-was just boring to me.

I think the franchise has been over itself for a while now, though. It should have stopped with Days of Future Past.

Edited June 11, 2019 by IWantCandy71

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, Dandesun said:

X-Cutioner's Song would require a mini-series just to explain who Cable and Stryfe are, how they came to be, and how they both ended up old and in the future in the first place.

Oh, I agree, I've just always wanted to see that on screen. Maybe when MCU finally reboots the X-Men they'll do a Summers-Grey-Pryor trilogy. 

[IWantCandy71]

6 hours ago, Dandesun said:

And I really wish these various writers would stop looking at a force of life, death, rebirth is the Ultimate Evil because it's really, really not

I will say, I feel they played it more like - that kind of power in the right hands,  is a good thing (what Jean does in the end). That kind of power in the wrong hands (Chastain's character) IS Evil personified. Or alien-afied. Whatever. They're not entirely wrong. Power isn't evil-but power mad people create evil when they aren't checked and contained. 

[IWantCandy71]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Oh God, that X-Women line was BAD. It was so painfully awkward and nonsensical it actually made me cringe. Anyone who said that the girl power shot in Endgame was cheesy needs to take a gander at this.

All the dialogue in the movie was cheesy bad. The only bit in the movie that got me emotionally(and barely that) were the Charles/Jean interactions about her being "broken". As if Erik would have just stood there and repeatedly asked "whose blood is that?" knowing Jean came from where Charles and the others were. So dumb and OOC.

[JessePinkman]

I will say this movie got the machinations of Charles down pat. If you believe all the various retcons he's been subjected to over the decades regarding what he's done to the X-Men "for the greater good", putting blocks in Jean's mind is NOTHING. He's a real piece of work.

[IWantCandy71]

14 hours ago, JessePinkman said:

I will say this movie got the machinations of Charles down pat. If you believe all the various retcons he's been subjected to over the decades regarding what he's done to the X-Men "for the greater good", putting blocks in Jean's mind is NOTHING. He's a real piece of work.

I've never read any of the comics, but I've heard that as well. This movie definitely puts Magneto and Charles on more equal footing, morally-which is something I've always suspected. I never liked how IM's version was always portrayed (IMO anyway) as a bit of an unhinged nut, and PS's Charles as some kind of saint. Even without knowing much about the histories, it felt like manipulation, when to me, in most situations, I actually agreed with Erik's POV and attitude. Not the mindless killing and hatred-but even that, I understood, even if I didn't agree with it. I think Charles, just from what I've seen, has a bit of a God complex.

[Morrigan2575]

15 hours ago, JessePinkman said:

I will say this movie got the machinations of Charles down pat. If you believe all the various retcons he's been subjected to over the decades regarding what he's done to the X-Men "for the greater good", putting blocks in Jean's mind is NOTHING. He's a real piece of work.

I think the problem comes from all the retcons. I don't recall Charles ever being an asshole or dick during my readings but, I have no idea what happened in between. When I came back to comics Charles was dead (by Phoenix Force influenced Scott Summers). Everyone hated Scott and blamed him for killing Charles whom they still loved/revered.

While I don't think that Xavier was a Saint. My memories of Comics Charles (93-'01, '07-'08, '13-'14) was more of the wise old mentor, ala Gandelf, Dumbledore and Obi-Wan. So MY Xavier is closer to Patrick Stewart's than MacAvoy's. Although, I admit one of the last stories (that I remember) involving Xavier was from 2007 and, his will reading, where it's revealed he put the mental whammy on a kid who was so super powerful he could totally re-create reality but, even then I couldn't help loving Charles and mourning him.

[VCRTracking]

From Vulture.com:

How Magneto Became Jewish

Excerpt:
 

Quote

As the current cycle of the X-Men films draws to a close with this week’s Dark Phoenix, it’s worth remembering how it began — with the darkest chapter in Jewish history made manifest. The trauma of the Holocaust wasn’t just the background of some formative interaction, it served as the foundational element of a crucial character. From the jump, audiences are made to understand that the story of the X-Men mythos is, among other things, specifically driven by Jewishness.

But, oddly enough, this was not always the case in the comics from which the X-Men emerged. When Magneto was first introduced in Jack Kirby and Stan Lee’s 1963 Marvel comic book The X-Men No. 1, Judaism was nowhere to be found. He was merely a stock villain — a guy who could manipulate magnetic fields and wanted the superpowered “mutant” offshoot of humanity to reign supreme. Fans of the X-Men brand might now take for granted Magneto’s origins as a Jewish Holocaust survivor, but this particular drive to save the mutant minority from genocidal hatred didn’t come into play for the character until 1981 — a full 18 years after his debut. More than anyone else, one man was responsible for this change: a Jewish boy with the distinctly Gentile-sounding name of Chris Claremont.

[benteen]

I think the issues with Xavier began when they would kill him off during the original X-Men run only to reveal later on that he had faked his death.

[Dandesun]

5 hours ago, benteen said:

I think the issues with Xavier began when they would kill him off during the original X-Men run only to reveal later on that he had faked his death.

Well, that and the near constant mind wiping. Silver Age is Silver Age but if it's canon then they have to treat it that way. So you had a lot of instances in that first run of X-Men where they'd fight whatever and then Charles would be all 'I have to protect our identities so that we remain safe' and he'd so a mass mind-wipe of everyone present not wearing an X on their belt and then they'd disappear until the next issue.

Plus, Charles in the comics has had extremely inappropriate relationships with various women. He had a kid with Gabrielle Haller and she was his patient!! He and Amelia Voght had a relationship when it started with him as her patient. He actually started to use his powers on her to make her stay but then felt bad about it and let her go. And, of course, there were his 'the one I love' thoughts about Jean when she was 16.

Telepaths in the comics cross lines a lot. It'd be hard pressed to find one that didn't but you do have those who try to live by a moral code. And then some who really don't care. If you're able to read the thoughts of those around you... even if you're not trying to... I can't imagine the absolute morass you'd have to wade through. 

[VCRTracking]

A great video on how the Dark Phoenix story came about in the comics:

[starri]

On 6/9/2019 at 7:50 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

The problem is FOX always short cuts the story. In order to do Jean Grey/Dark Phoenix right you really need like 3 or 4 movies. 

I'm not even entirely sure you could do it as a movie series at all, at least not to have it be emotionally satisfying.  X-Men: TAS knew to do it in two chunks (although even that was missing an episode that was supposed to go between the two, which ended up airing way out of order), but they'd also been building up their characters for two years before they tried.  I don't think there's a way to do that even in multiple movies, not when they have to juggle so many characters.  You'd need at least one movie that's primarily ABOUT Jean before getting possessed by the Phoenix Force (maybe that's the climax of that movie) and one about her as Good Phoenix before you can bring it home in any meaningful way.  And Fox, at least, was never going to focus on a character who's name doesn't rhyme with Schmulvarine.

It doesn't help that the only character who was ignored more than Jean in both X-Men trilogies was Cyclops.

[Morrigan2575]

5 minutes ago, starri said:

You'd need at least one movie that's primarily ABOUT Jean before getting possessed by the Phoenix Force (maybe that's the climax of that movie) and one about her as Good Phoenix before you can bring it home in any meaningful way.  And Fox, at least, was never going to focus on a character who's name doesn't rhyme with Schmulvarine.

Yeah that was my thinking as well. One movie about X-Men but, focusing on Jean.  Ending it with Jean "dying" getting the Phoenix Force.  The 2nd movie is Good Phoenix but the last act shows her being manipulated by Mastermind and ends on a cliffy of Dark Phoenix emerging.  Then the Final Movie is Dark Phoenix and Jean's death/sacrifice.  The fact that she chooses to die while there's still something human/Jean left, instead of becoming a godlike force that lost all of who she is/was is a beautiful character story.  

FOX and possibly movie makers in general just never seem to get the true story of Dark Phoenix.  I think Marvel would do it right but, at this point it's so tainted I wouldn't want to see it for another decade or 2...maybe if it was a Disney+ Series

[benteen]

Yeah, you either need a trilogy to tell the Dark Phoenix story right or, better yet but extremely unlikely, a high-budget TV series.  They'll never use the main X-Men for a TV series so I think the only possible way you could do this story any justice is with an animated series.

Jean becoming Phoenix till her death was 36 issues (Uncanny X-Men #101-137), not all of them focusing on Jean.  The X-Men was a bi-monthly series till #112 so it took closer to five years to tell that story.

Edited June 18, 2019 by benteen

[swanpride]

Ich bin mir nicht sicher ob die Dark Phoenix story überhaupt für einen Film geeignet ist.

[Morrigan2575]

Mini-Series or TV Series would be better but, as @benteen said, i don't see them wasting the X-Men (proper) or The Dark Phoenix Saga on a TV Series.  

[Sandman]

On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 5:31 AM, Wiendish Fitch said:

Nope, not happening. Why? I already saw X-Men: The Last Stand. Once was too much. I don't want a repeat experience. If I can name one genuinely good thing about Apocalypse, it's that Charles encourages Jean to embrace her powers fully, and as a result she saved the day. And now... he's doing the exact same shit he did in The Last Stand???!!! I get that Charles isn't perfect, but why is everyone so hellbent on making him either completely ineffectual or an outright villain?

That was definitely the thing I liked about Apocalypse  -- well, that and the fact that Apocalypse's last line was, if I recall correctly: "All is revealed." (Nerdery: The Greek root word of "apocalypse" does not mean "the end of all things"; it's a word for "revelation.")

Co-signed (with lots of impassioned underlining) on all of the above.

On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 1:30 PM, Dandesun said:

And while I can't say that Mastermind as Jason Wyngard seducing Jean to the dark side ages well it's still about JEAN and her coming to grips with shit. It's the thing that continuously peeves me about how they try to do this storyline. Jean spent a lot of time as Phoenix (look we all know that Jean wasn't actually Phoenix and they retconned the shit out of that and then she always had the potential for that power and then took on the memories after Inferno and then became the Phoenix for realsies and then died and then came back and then rejected the Phoenix and blah blah blah comic books) before the Hellfire Club showed up with their ruffles and weaponized lingerie to get at her. We barely know this Jean at all much less know her powers or anything like this. So catapulting immediately to the Dark Phoenix irritates the living shit out of me.

Also, this: I know, right?

[Dandesun]

Current comics canon, particularly the brand spanking new House of X #2 just makes what they did with Mystique in the X-movies even more infuriating.

Okay, MCU... you've got astounding new stuff to work with. Give us THIS Mystique and Destiny!

(And holy shit, Moira MacTaggart.)

[BetterButter]

[Dandesun]

Yeah... that sounds about right.

There are so many things that infuriate me about the mere concept of this movie. Giving the writer of X3, which is almost universally LOATHED, another crack at it and letting him direct it too. Cripes. Yeah, that's right at the top.

I guess I'm waiting for this to come out on the movie channels... sort of. And if I stumble upon it maybe I'll watch it. I don't know. Frankly, the further I get away from the Dark Phoenix sage in the comics the less I like it, too. It's a combination of things because Jean being seduced by the dark side, literally, is kind of a drag but at least they took their time (which you can do in the comics medium) and we had a much better idea of who Jean was even if she was still 'the girl' in a lot of ways (yes, Polaris and Ororo were around but Wolverine's gross fixation on Jean throughout was still off putting.)

I would like to see Jean handled well in some way in the future. I don't know what the MCU is going to do now that they have the X-Men but I understand people who DON'T want to see Jean in the next incarnation. I actually would. But I don't need to see the Phoenix. She can do plenty without the space firebird and has for a long time.

And I'm ready to not see Charles and Erik for quite some time, too. The comics existed without them around, also. Let's finally focus on some characters who haven't gotten nearly enough love in the movies. (Everyone but Charles, Erik, Logan and fucking Mystique... unless they did her right but they won't so no,)

[ICantDoThatDave]

This is on HBO now & I rewatched it out of, well, quarantine-boredom, but one problem I identified is there's too much "now I strain to invoke my power!" going on.  You know how Professor X points to his temple?  There's a lot of that.

Jean, Magneto, Charles, there's only so much "aargh, I put my arms out to my side & make a constipated face!!!!" that a superhero movie can endure before it becomes laughable.  The big mutant battle near the end* consisted of mostly "I stand in a pose & make a constipated face while CGI happens!!"  This movie was just awash with constipated faces.  I mean, among the other problems, of course, but that bit stood out to me.

* EDIT: in the mansion, not the train, although the train definitely had some "I stand & make a face while CGI happens"

Edited April 1, 2020 by ICantDoThatDave

[ursula]

That’s where the first movies have got the newer ones beat. No constipated faces, at least with the older mutants. Charles doesn’t do that ridiculous finger on the temple thing, he just blinks and boom, he’s in your head. Magneto waves his hands gracefully, like if he’s conducting the music of metal. Would that plastic prison break have looked half as badass if it was Fassie looking like if he needed to crap? It’s what makes Jean stand out, because she’s supposed to be struggling with her powers.
 

In fact the only time I remember the constipated power moves are with the younger kids - Pyro and Bobby, which makes sense because they aren’t pros.

Nothing I’ve heard of this movie makes me want to watch it which is just a crying shame.

[Sandman]

New recruitment tagline for Xavier Jean Grey Institute For Higher Learning: "Welcome to Mutant High: We Teach You How Not To Make That Face."

I suppose it could've been worse: Could've been the Raven Darkholme Memorial Institute For Higher Learning.   

[ursula]

5 hours ago, Sandman said:

Could've been the Raven Darkholme Memorial Institute For Higher Learning.   

In story though, this would have made far more sense than naming the school after Jean.

To no one’s surprise, Dark Phoenix was the biggest box office flop of 2019.. 

[Bruinsfan]

It surprises the hell out of me. I'd have bet folding money Cats would win that title!

[ursula]

Nah. Dark Phoenix was so bad, it made Last Stand watchable.

[Sandman]

On 4/29/2020 at 11:39 PM, ursula said:

Nah. Dark Phoenix was so bad, it made Last Stand watchable.

No: Dark Phoenix was pretty bad, but nowhere on the same scale. The Last Stand was offensive; nothing will ever, ever induce me to watch it again. The people who wrote that obscene bullshit owe me my money back.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Sandman said:

No: Dark Phoenix was pretty bad, but nowhere on the same scale. The Last Stand was offensive; nothing will ever, ever induce me to watch it again. The people who wrote that obscene bullshit owe me my money back.

Nah. Last Stand was disappointing, a huge letdown after years and movies of caring for these characters. Dark Phoenix was... you know the 8 dreaded words? “I don’t care what happens to these people”? That’s the movie. Completely forgettable. 

[Sandman]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

Nah. Last Stand was disappointing, a huge letdown after years and movies of caring for these characters.

I found it far more destructive than that; "disappointing" just doesn't cover it, for me. You and I can disagree, though.

[ursula]

42 minutes ago, Sandman said:

I found it far more destructive than that; "disappointing" just doesn't cover it, for me. You and I can disagree, though.

Disappointing... destructive... tomato... tomato... IMO, at least the movie made someone feel... something. Other than amusement at Raven’s death scene (a reaction I’m sure the creators weren’t expecting from the audience), the only thing the Dark Phoenix made me feel was the urge to use the bathroom.

[katha]

I just...where did it all go so wrong, though? I thought "First Class" and "Days of Future Past" were a great reboot! "Apocalypse" was waning, but had some redeeming features. This phenomenon of a franchise that started well disintegrating by the last movie is interesting/sad. You get invested because it starts out pretty neat and then it gets worse and worse...