Past Seasons Discussion : Tales From The Crypt

[Cattitude]

Seems like we might need a place to talk about over arching issue.

 

I think TVD was going someplace even in season 4 but this season it stalled out and seemed to go no where. There wasn't much character development at all.

 

I really thought Matt was going to get an interesting story and then it just stalled out. I've liked in past season that he usually had some kind of story.

[Cattitude]

 

Damon wasn't feeling an ounce of guilt for killing Aaron. The only reason he was so distraught is because he thought Elena would hate him. Silly Damon. Elena doesn't hate people who kill her friends. She doesn't even hate people who kill her brother, and then threaten his life again.

Funny thing is that if Stefan did even 1% of the evil shit that Damon does, we wouldn't hear the end of it from Stefan haters. But since he doesn't, the grasping at straws takes place via accusation that Stefan has a "holier than thou" attitude. Oh, and let's not forget "he needs to own his vampirism" argument. But of course! He needs to drink human blood, even though it has a mind altering effect on him, just like a drug. But at least he owns his vampirism, and that makes it worth it to rip people's heads of. Did I get that right? Instead, Stefan tries to do the right thing and survive by other means because he actually gives a shit about people and doesn't want to hurt them. Nope! Wrong choice! Own your vampirism, they say. But yet at the same time his ripperism is being used against him just as well. Oh, well, you just can't win. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. But even with the alleged "holier than thou" attitude (which I personally think was pulled out of someone's ass in a moment of desperation), I'd take an attitude over brother-killing, friend-killing, friend-raping whiny man child any day.

 

I think Damon did feel guilt for killing Aaron not just fear about Elena hating him. I think he did realize he did something impulsive and killed someone just like he'd been trying to not do. Now do I think he cared about Aaron himself, no just saw Aaron as a person he killed not as Aaron. Just b/c he takes two steps forward and one step back doesn't mean he isn't learning. We saw when the next two stressors happened: Stelena keeping Enzo's death from him and Stefan dying he actively fought AGAINST going off the rails. That shows that he did learn something from killing Aaron.

 

Part of the reason Damon gets forgiven so easily is b/c he admits he is a dick. He doesn't try to say he is a good person as Stefan does. So the impact of Stefan doing things like he did when he stole Klaus' coffins in harder for him to overcome. Stefan presents himself as good so good is expected. That was the whole premise behind Damon's motel bed talk with Elena before their big makeout scene in Season 3. Damon doesn't want people to expect good from him, even though as Elena saw he does it quite often he just doesn't try to make a big deal out it.

And I personally don't begruge Stefan his choice to be a "vegan" vampire for HIM what I do take issue with is his whole judgemental attitude that not being like him somehow makes other vampires lessor vampires. I will say he did redeem himself a little on that point in his talk with Elena when they escaped traveler bleeding hell. He told Elena he is the way he is b/c of his blood lust and other vampires get a pass for killing b/c hey the ARE vampires.

[Cattitude]

If I admitted I was a serial killer and said I was a dick, should I get forgiven so easily by the victims family members?

But that is superimposing human morals onto a vampire. Damon isn't a person he is a vampire. Doing things like killing people are not immoral acts for a vampire b/c vampires feed on human blood.

The things Damon does to be a dick as a vampire would be comparable to a human who drinks too much, punches walls, or picks bar fights when he gets upset. It isn't the most healthy way to deal with anger, but people who love people who do those kind of things get past it easier when that is the person's baseline personality than someone who would do that as a one off out of character thing. Doesn't mean it is fair but that is what happens.

 

And let's not kid ourselves that Stefan doesn't also get forgiven for the bad things he does either. It just is frowned upon a little more, but still given a pass.

[2Old2BAFangirl]

Oh, I don't know.  Stefan has done some pretty shitty things himself and been given a pass for them, not just by Elena but by the rest of the gang too.

 

He basically stalked Elena in the beginning and even though he knew he was a vampire, he still "had to know her".  No problem though, she still loves him.

He had an entire wall with the names of people he killed.  No problem though, she still loves him.

He told Elena that Klaus killing Jeremy was "not his problem" and refused to help her.  No problem though, she still loves him.

He threatened to drive Elena off the Wickery Bridge and turn her into a vampire by her drowning.  No problem though, she still loves him.

 

I don't feel like Stefan really faced much for consequences with those examples. Just because he broods and looks sad about it doesn't mean he faced any real consequences for what he did. 

 

At the end of the day, practically everyone in the core group can be shown to be pretty awful.  They can also be shown to be pretty awesome.  It's a vampire show, we root for the vampires on this show.  Bad boys, rippers, no humanity, brooding, loving, self-sacrificing, heroic vampires.  I am glad they all basically get passes on some of the shit they pull - it would be unbelievably boring otherwise, IMO. 

[Cattitude]

Does anyone remember the details of Alaric becoming a vampire vampire hunter? I've seen something about Alaric being called an Orginal vampire and it didn't make any sense to me. I know Original mother(whose name escapes me) is the one who created him, but what will that mean with him back season 6?

 

When he has made his otherside cameos he seemed to act like a normal vampire to me. I'm confused?

[2Old2BAFangirl]

From what I remember:

 

Esther is the one who made Alaric a vampire.  She used the same spell on Alaric as she did on her children back in the day.  That would make Alaric an "Original" vampire, I believe, because he was created from that spell, not turned by someone in the Original family bloodline.   He was sired by no one, it was strictly Esther's spell.

 

I wonder what, if anything, can kill Alaric now?  When Esther created him, she tied his life to Elena's and her death was the only thing that could kill him.  The Mikaelsons can only be killed with that one white oak stake but it didn't work on Alaric when they tried it at the end of S3.  Elena is already dead.  Hmmm, that's interesting.

[Cattitude]

Oh yes Esther. I thought he was made like Mikael though a vampire vampire hunter. In his otherside cameos he never seems homicidal towards the vampires though. I just wonder if he will still be a vampire hunter like Mikael is.

 

He was hugging Elena at the end of season 5 though so I'm still a little confused.

[2Old2BAFangirl]

Yeah, I don't know about the vampire vampire hunter thing anymore either.  It seems like that part of Esther's plan died when Alaric died.  Like you said, everytime we've seen him on the Other Side, he's been Alaric, not evil Alaric. 

Maybe they'll have a line or two of dialogue in S6 just to put a few of these Alaric questions to rest.  When I put aside the part about Damon being dead, I'm so so so happy that Alaric is back!  I've missed him! 

[Bitterswete]

I'm bringing this over from the "Home" thread.

 

To me the issue is how Jeremy and Damon feel about each other. If Jeremy loathed Damon and really couldn't forgive him then yes Elena would be kind of bad for loving Damon at Jeremy's expense.

 

The argument seems to be that if Jeremy was okay (apparently) with Damon trying to kill him, then it's totally fine for Elena to be too.

 

But something I've noticed in myself, as well as in people I know, is that it often seems easier to forgive people who hurt us than it is to forgive people who hurt our siblings. Well unless the siblings are estranged or something, but Elena is supposed to love Jeremy oh so much.

 

Something like this happened on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Dawn looked up to Spike as the dangerous but cool guy who let her hang out with him. She didn't hold the bad stuff he'd done against him. And the fact that he did protect her from various bad things (or almost died trying to) probably put him up on a pedestal even more in her eyes.

 

Then Spike tried to hurt Buffy, and that was it as far as Dawn was concerned. She no longer looked up to him or wanted to hang out with him. And even when Buffy seemed willing to forgive Spike, Dawn wasn't so quick to do so. Because he hurt her sister.

 

Now I missed the Spike and Dawn dynamic, because their kind of odd friendship was fun to watch. But I understood where Dawn was coming from.

 

So Elena forgiving Damon for trying to kill her brother, (and showing he was capable of taking someone she supposedly loves so much away from her permanently) has hurt my perception of her character, and made me question how much she actually cares for Jeremy.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Bitterswete

[Jazzy24]

She doesn't care about Jeremy at all, she's so stuck on Damon that Jeremy doesn't register she sucks as a sister.

[MachuPichu]

It's like in the TVD universe: Good people suck, are boring and will be judged harshly if they ever make a mistake & bad people are fun, sexy, cool, snarky and should be held in the highest regard.

Does not compute.

WIN, WIN, and more WIN! That is exactly how I feel. The stuff that Stefan did in moments of greatest weakness PALES in comparison to what Damon does on a regular and yet somehow killing people, and not just any people, I'm talking about brothers and best friends, gets easily compared to "stalking" and raping gets compared to "tricking Elena into a relationship". Like, are you for real? Are we really comparing them side by side? These acts are universes apart!! I must be extremely stupid as I utterly fail to see any comparable similarities between the examples above.

And Stefan allegedly thinking that his choice of vampirism is better than anyone else's is purely speculation based on the preference of Damon character as there was absolutely no evidence of him feeling this way. Yes, Stefan was pissed at Damon for hurting people he cares about or carelessly killing people in general. But no shit!!! Anyone having any morals would be upset! This has nothing to do with thinking one is better than the others.

For christ's sake, Damon even killed their Uncle What's His Face! If being pissed at him for killing own family, best friend, and a slew of random people means having holier than thou attitude then I'm sorry but I'll have to wash my hands off trying to understand the other point of view.

Edited May 22, 2014 by MachuPichu

[MachuPichu]

1. Damon came into Elena's room while she was sleeping and stroked her face like a creepy fucker. But invasions of privacy are super romantic so no problem though.

ROTFLMFAO!!!!

[Cattitude]

And Stefan allegedly thinking that his choice of vampirism is better than anyone else's is purely speculation based on the preference of Damon character as there was absolutely no evidence of him feeling this way.

 

The basis for this feeling is rooted in what was shown on screen at the beginning of Season 4. Stefan tried to force Elena to be "like him" for her own good. He very much presented that his way was better despite Damon strongly disagreeing with him. In fact it is part of what lead to Elena ultimately chosing Damon. She couldn't live up to Stefan's high standards for a new vampire to go against her nature and began to keep secrets from him. She kept disappointing him and began to see how Damon felt all this time having to be judged by Stefan's ruler. In the end even Stefan admitted he was wrong that ALL vampires have killed at least one person. Even now Elena drinks human blood not animals.

 

It has been well established that Stefan has killed more people than any of them, so for him to be so judgemental is very grating.

 

I don't dislike Stefan in general I just don't enjoy his character as well as others. Stefan will NEVER be happy and I just can't enjoy mopey. Stefan wants to live the life of a human though he is a vampire. He will never find another vampire to live up to his standards and he can't really be with a human b/c he IS a vampire and no matter how much he "tries" to pretend he isn't he will ALWAYS fall off the wagon and ruin his relationship with a human. Truely the only new love interest that would work for Stefan would a be a human.

[DigitalCount]

I thought that the problem was the sire-bond re: Elena's ability to drink animal blood. I think that, fundamentally, Stefan was right on the money with regard to Elena's worries, it's just that her turning period was a strange, special case.

 

Also, re: Alaric - I'm pretty sure that in the s4 finale Alaric still had at least his speed and strength when he prevented Connor from blowing up the grill.

Edited May 22, 2014 by DigitalCount

[Cattitude]

The sire bond was beside the point. The point was how STEFAN felt about his choice as a vampire. It was very much shown Stefan felt his way was best. In the end the sire bond is now a non-issue and Elena isn't a "vegan" vampire and has killed as a vampire.

It was made very clear when Rebekah compelled her even with the sire bond she felt like a broken toy to Stefan that he had to "fix" that was showing how she felt his judgement about her not being like him.

Stefan being judgemental is nothing "made up" it has been very much shown on the show.

 

Re Alaric: It has been established Alaric is a vampire. The debate is what KIND of vampire. Just a vampire or a vampire hunter vampire like Mikael. Esther made him a vampire vampire hunter, but now he doesn't seem to be murderous like Mikael is. That seems confusing.

[Cattitude]

I'm starting to get confused. I think you just agreed with me. Elena is acting like a real vampire and she isn't sired. So I think yes Damon was right and it had nothing to do with sire bond.

 

Of course the sire bond happened the point was I was responding to someone who said the show never established that STEFAN feels his way is best and judges other vampires by his ruler. The point of the post was to show that yes in Season 4 for sure even though he judged Damon plenty of times before that.

 

Stefan has been shown on the show to judge other vampires by his vegan standards and find them lacking, and it has nothing to do with people liking the character of Damon.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Cattitude

[Cattitude]

If anything, Damon and his pushing of "This is what a REAL vampire does. REAL vampire are like this" is him thinking his way is the best. Who is he to say what is best for every single vampire in the world?

In Season 4 after the frat party Damon summed it up best. Vampires drink human blood, that IS what they do. They are a preditory species. What he said was I learn to enjoy something that comes natural to me and it helps me learn to control the feed so I can drink my fill and not kill people. That is being a good vampire. Snatch eat erase.

 

It does bring up something that has continually bothered me on TVD in general. This notion that drinking blood bags is somehow less evil than snatch eat erase. As someone who works in the health care field it really rubs me the wrong way and always has.

People donate their blood to save lives and blood supplies are always in high demand and short supply. I always feel that they are actually robing people of life by stealing blood donated in good faith to save lives.

Snatch eat erase preserves life while keep vampires strong on their natural food. Using blood bags may actually lead to patient deaths b/c there wouldn't be enough blood for the hospital's needs.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Cattitude

[Cattitude]

 

Again. That is being a good vampire according to DAMON. Who makes up the rules? Damon does? No.

IMO as far as I'm concerned the writers made up the rules when they gave us the Orginals and their whole back story of the creation of vampirism. The show tells me that vampires are predators that feed on human blood to live.

[Lisin]

OK guys, we're veering into agree to disagree territory. You all have your opinions and it's totally cool to discuss them but we've been over this ground many times now. It appears to me that none of us are going to change our minds regarding this topic so maybe lets discuss something else.

 

I don't understand why Bonnie is always so willing to die for these fools. They're all basically the cause for all her problems in life and yet she repeatedly sacrifices herself and her family to save Elana or Stefan or Damon even. I don't get it. Also, I don't actually like Bonnie, I just think her willingness to die for everyone has never really made sense. 

[Carrie Ann]

I think Bonnie's selflessness is one of the only consistent pieces of characterization this show has left, and it's actually kind of gross? Like why does she have to be the only one who thinks her life is worth less than her friends'? Elena used to feel that way, but the show has removed that trait to the point of complete selfishness. Why is Bonnie always marginalized and always sacrificed? I have some theories, but it's barely worth thinking about because the writers will never change the situation so it's a lost cause.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[Cattitude]

I have never understood where Bonnie is coming from. Her mother abandoned her as a child and then proceeded to parent a child not her own. ouch! BUT she was pretty much raised by her Grams who the show has always presented as her role model she loves above anything. Her Grams disliked vampires and saw the evil in them. I have never understood why she so passively hurts herself for vampires if she looked up to her Grams so much.

 

I get some of what she has done for Jeremy. I do believe she loves him greatly probably a lot more than he actually loves her. It really chaps me though the way she always makes decisions to hurt herself without consulting anyone or letting others chose to say no to her sacrificing for them. In my eyes it lessens her sacrifice b/c she takes their control away.

 

I will say she is the only witch who hasn't been also shown to be a bitch. I loathe the witches on TO.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Cattitude

[fantique]

It does bring up something that has continually bothered me on TVD in general. This notion that drinking blood bags is somehow less evil than snatch eat erase. As someone who works in the health care field it really rubs me the wrong way and always has.

People donate their blood to save lives and blood supplies are always in high demand and short supply. I always feel that they are actually robing people of life by stealing blood donated in good faith to save lives.

Snatch eat erase preserves life while keep vampires strong on their natural food. Using blood bags may actually lead to patient deaths b/c there wouldn't be enough blood for the hospital's needs.

Ohh! I have never actually thought of that but yeah... Good Point

 

 

I get some of what she has done for Jeremy. I do believe she loves him greatly probably a lot more than he actually loves her. It really chaps me though the way she always makes decisions to hurt herself without consulting anyone or letting others chose to say no to her sacrificing for them. In my eyes it lessens her sacrifice b/c she takes their control away.

That's an interesting view. Does control of the saved people really affect the value of the sacrifice though? Because unless we assume that the characters really secretly hate Bonnie, then they would never choose to let her die would they? Then her offering to sacrifice herself would just become redundant and ineffective. Also doesn't the fact that it's not validated by others makes almost it a more selfless act? I do agree there is a part in self-sacrifice that basically assumes that others could not do the same or can't help themselves. But in TVD, I would say it's justified. They almost always need her to come through. And she also would sacrifice to save ANY innocent, and she doesn't feel (rightly so) that the others could do the same. They wouldn't hurt others on purpose but not die for them. It's f**ked up but she feels responsible. Her beloved grams died and she feels she has to honour her memory.

 

I have always just seen it as her trying to protect Elena, Caroline, Jeremy and just the humans generally. I think if Damon and Stefan were 2 random vampires coming to her saying 'Save us!', she wouldn't. It's just that when protecing MF, the Salvatores can be helpful and they would look out for the girls she sees as family.

 

Random Note: Idk why, but Liv just annoyed me. Both the MF gang and the witches want the travelers out of the way. A more direct approach would have helped prevent the whole thing. And in the last episode she goes from 'screw 'em' to 'I promised'... While I wouldn't want it to be that way, it seemed more in character for her to just drop them like hot coals.

Edited May 23, 2014 by fantique

[Cattitude]

That's an interesting view. Does control of the saved people really affect the value of the sacrifice though? Because unless we assume that the characters really secretly hate Bonnie, then they would never choose to let her die would they? Then her offering to sacrifice herself would just become redundant and ineffective. Also doesn't the fact that it's not validated by others makes almost it a more selfless act? I do agree there is a part in self-sacrifice that basically assumes that others could not do the same or can't help themselves. But in TVD, I would say it's justified. They almost always need her to come through. And she also would sacrifice to save ANY innocent, and she doesn't feel (rightly so) that the others could do the same. They wouldn't hurt others on purpose but not die for them. It's f**ked up but she feels responsible. Her beloved grams died and she feels she has to honour her memory.

I wasn't saying she wouldn't do it anyway, but if say she had told Jeremy that she was going through all this to save everyone else, but she couldn't get back, he'd have a voice to say no Bonnie don't do it. He could have explored other options maybe even talked to her Grams. Whose to say her way was the ONLY way. Then when she did it anyway b/c it was ultimately her choice, it would have made her sacrifice more meaningful IMO.

 

Bonnie's Grams hated vampires so I feel just the opposite. By helping vampires (b/c BOTH Caroline and Elena are vampires) she is going against everything her Grams stood for NOT honoring her.

[Carrie Ann]

That's what I thought Grams and Bonnie reconciled about at the end--Grams disapproved of a lot of Bonnie's actions and choices. But in the end, she was proud of the person Bonnie was, and her choices were a part of that. She was willing to see grey areas and help those that witches typically scorned, simply because she thought for herself and made her own decisions. When you look at the witches in the rest of the TVD/TO universe, you can see how unique that is. Liv and Luke seemed utterly beholden to their coven, and I can't even get into the witches on TO or the rage will ruin my weekend.

[Cattitude]

Very good point Grams was proud of Bonnie at the end.

 

Also good point. Why DO all the other witches have covens, but the Bennet witches don't seem to?

[fantique]

 

Bonnie's Grams hated vampires so I feel just the opposite. By helping vampires (b/c BOTH Caroline and Elena are vampires) she is going against everything her Grams stood for NOT honoring her.

Grams wanted her to stay out of vampire business for her safety, but I doubt she would say that Bonnie should abandon 2 people they both knew since diapers. I categorise helping Elena and Caroline differently from 'helping vampires'. Attributing this extreme narrow mindset on both of them is ignoring their development and some of the facts. Bonnie first wanted to avoid Caroline but when she realised she was still her friend, she relented and let's be real most vampires are not like Caroline.  If Grams was so extreme in her belief she would have never helped Bonnie with the spell or with helping Stefan when they realised he was trapped. It always confuses me when people act like her not being a vampire groupie is being judgy but when she helps her childhood friends (who became vampires as victims not by choice, and want to have as much of a "normal human life" as possible) and their hometown, they make it out to be a huge betrayal of Grams. It's not like she likes vampires or the Salvatores now, but with the other baddies coming to town... Better the devil you know.

[2Old2BAFangirl]

Is this the right thread to see how everyone thinks Stefan is going to react to Damon's death?  I don't want to start more Damon hate, I've just been thinking a lot about Stefan's reaction and adjustment to his brother being dead and I'm curious to see what others are thinking about it.

 

According to some post finale interviews:

There will be a time jump since the finale when S6 starts. Each character will be coping with Damon's death in different ways.

 

I wonder if Stefan is going to become even more withdrawn than he's been in the past?  Or does he go Ripper again to deal with the loss?  Regardless of whether we like or don't like Damon, Stefan loves Damon and didn't want his brother to die.  Anybody else have a good guess or theory on what Stefan may be doing in the wake of his brother's death?  Or any of the characters for that matter? 

 

I miss my vamps - I'm hoping someone will take pity and discuss this some with me. ;)

[Jads]

I'll talk to you as I am a huge sucker for the defan relationship. I think one of the big problems with season 5 has been them not working together. They could have so easily had a defan scene on the other side in 5x22. I felt really cheated as the whole point was supposed to Damon saving Stefan but somehow it turned into saving every tom, dick and Harry supernatural plus a bit of delena bs. I prefer both my Salvatores well away from Elena.

I would really like to see Stefan going a bit darker over losing Damon. Not full on ripper, just a bit grey. I really hope that they use the Stefan guilt complex to push him to get Damon back. It would be great to see him working alongside Alaric, kind of in the covert way that Damon plotted to get Stefan back at the beginning of season 3 before Elena got involved and pushed Damon into her daft plans. Both brothers are smart guys, but in the past, it has tended to be shown that Damon plans work and Stefan's fail. I'm guessing because Stefan tends to try diplomacy first which doesn't make for an interesting plot. It would be great to see a Stefan plan actually work.

I can't really see how Enzo is going to fit in going forward. I never really got his point or where he was coming from and when Bonnie didn't save Silas, I really wanted her to shove Enzo into the vortex too (ffs the guy tried to kill Jeremy). I can't see him and Stefan working Together. Maybe he and Alaric will team up?

I really hope that JP and Cd have a good plan for Alaric. He was pretty aimless for much of season 3 so I hope he isn't wasted. I see his initial role as supporting Elena and Jeremy so not really getting much chance for his own reaction. As an original vampire, he has the potential to go to the dark side which could be interesting.

Have waffled on for ages, sorry. I do think everything is dependent on where and when season 6 starts. There is a real opportunity for a reboot so I hope it does not get screwed up.

[Carrie Ann]

@2Old2BAFangirl and @Jads, I responded to some of your points in the Speculations with Spoilers thread.

[2Old2BAFangirl]

@2Old2BAFangirl and @Jads, I responded to some of your points in the Speculations with Spoilers thread.

 

Thanks Carrie Ann - I didn't think about starting a Spec thread, I'm glad you have a functioning brain! LOL

 

Jads, I'll take my thoughts on your post to the Spec thread. :)

[CaughtOnTape]

I'll talk to you as I am a huge sucker for the defan relationship. I think one of the big problems with season 5 has been them not working together. They could have so easily had a defan scene on the other side in 5x22. I felt really cheated as the whole point was supposed to Damon saving Stefan but somehow it turned into saving every tom, dick and Harry supernatural plus a bit of delena bs. I prefer both my Salvatores well away from Elena.

 

I totally agree with all of this.  While Damon/Elena's goodbye was heart wrenching, I really would've liked to have seen more of Stefan's 2 second realization that his brother was gone.  I hope they fix this in Season 6 as for me, the core relationship of the show is Damon and Stefan.  Paul is pretty good at walking that line of knowing Stefan's brother is an asshole but also knowing Stefan loves him anyway.  

[Cattitude]

I don't know. I often get pissed about how Stefan acts about Damon. I love their relationship but I often get the feeling Stefan's underlying reason for wanting Damon around all the time is to make himself feel like the "better" brother. One reason I disliked that cabin in the wood episode was Stefan's reasoning for keeping Enos' death from Damon was b/c A)Damon would "hate" him and B)Caroline would "judge" him. FGS I think Stefan would have a little more confidence in Damon's love and not be so shallow.

Stefan's judgieness towards this brother he'd basically do ANYTHING for always grates. I do always love when Damon throws him a zinger revealing something selfless he did making Stefan look a fool for being so judgie.

 

I hope since the writers seem to have killed the triangle FINALLY that Stefan and Damon will get more scenes together next season.....when Damon comes back of course>wink<

[Cattitude]

Damn was a 23 year old (or 20 something) man when he met Katherine. He wasn't a boy by a long shot. He was an adult who made some very bad decisions..like being an accomplice in murder, which was 100% fine with him. When they showed that flashback in Season 1, I knew the guy was messed up in the head/ crazy before he ever became a vampire. Katherine just brought the psychotic nature to the surface, it was always there.

 

Using the "I did it because I was in love" excuse is maybe acceptable if someone is young, uneducated, impressionable, vulnerable..etc. But, as was mentioned earlier, Damon was an adult.  

 

...And if you can't hold adults responsible for their actions, then is anyone in TVD universe supposed to be? Is there morality at all? 

 

 

By my calculations, Damon was 25 when he was turned into a vampire. This is based on the idea that it is 2012 in vampire diaries land (as they have only moved on 3 years in 5 seasons) and Damon's empassioned speech to Elena in 5x22. I know this is a total writing fail but Still.

Human Damon has never been particularly well sketched out. Sadly they skirted over his role in the civil war and the effects it had on him. Combat can have a huge effect on a person's mental health. I could definitely understand him becoming unhinged and willingly killing people with Katherine. This could easily be carried over into his vampire personality as becoming a vampire heightens your human traits.

I don't quite understand how Damon comes across as being that old in the flashbacks? In my head Damon was 19, but I'd say at BEST he was 21. It was established in the civil war flashbacks in season one that Stefan was 17 and he and Damon were very close as brothers. Most times to be that close you have to be close in age also. If Damon was 5-7 years older than Stefan they wouldn't have come across the way they did as equals b/c Damon would have been too old to be that close with his "baby" brother. I think at most Damon would have been 3 years older than Stefan, plus he was on leave from the war and it appeared it was his first leave so he couldn't have been enlisted very long since you can't sign up until 18 it adds to the layer of him being that young. Next you have the town council's "secret" antivampire club that their father was a member of. He very much trusted his sons to feel as he did and planned to include them, but hadn't yet. I don't think Damon would have been kept out of the loop if he was very old, which also lead me to believe he'd just become an adult then left for war so he didn't get a change to be "included" before.

 

Men mature slower than women so I still consider a 19-21 y/o to be a boy especially in the ways of love. The flashbacks also seemed to imply Damon had never been in love before so he was shown as naive about Katherine's ways. And regardless of his age Katherine was a manipulative 500 y/o vampire so yes he was a BOY compaired to her.

What I saw in Damon when she was showing him how vampires feed by trapping the humans was someone who was slightly afraid and appalled about it but didn't want to look weak to his lady love who was goading him so he masked how he felt and went with it. That seemed to be confirmed to me when he was finally turned and thought Katherine was dead. He didn't WANT to be a vampire for its own sake only b/c he loved her so much. He knew what being a vampire meant since Katherine had shown him. Since he chose NOT to become one it would lead me to believe he didn't get a natural thrill out of killing. Knowing what was involved lead him to chose not to be one, that would kind of discount the whole human Damon was pychopath theory.

 

Now to me vampire Damon has no issue killing, but it is more compairable with The Orginal Family and all the vampires shown in NOLA with Marcel. That makes me feel much of those tendencies are natural vampire traits, not just Damon.

[Cattitude]

No, sorry. He was a full grown adult.

 

That is Damon's birthday according to The Vampire Diaries. He died as a 25 year old man. Not a 19 year old. 

 

No offense to Ian Somehalder, but I'm glad the show didn't try to pass him off as a teenager, no way in hell he could pull it off. Neither can Paul anymore..but that's neither here nor there.

I don't understand the quote. Where does it have his birthdate in the show, or is it on the shows web page?

 

Not that it matters to me though it just makes no sense. The way IS portrayed human Damon he acted WAY younger than a 25 y/o from that era. By the time a man would have been that old back then he would have been at least betrothed to someone more likely married and have had much experience with life and women even if he had gone to college otherwise he sure wouldn't have been living at home hanging out with his 7 yrs younger brother.

The actual age doesn't matter to me as much as how mature he acted he very much acted like a young innocent kind of boy.

 

Knowing his actual age doesn't change my opinion b/c it was based on how he acted more than a number. In my mind he still was 19.

[KatWay]

He said to Elena "in my 173 years on earth", which, since we know the year he died means we can at least guess his age range, and that's mid- to late twenties depending on how the timeline of the show is supposed to go.

 

It also fits with what has been established previously IMO. Damon was always grouped with the adults, hung out with Alaric, was taken seriously by Liz and Carol, etc. And in the flashbacks he at least seemed more experienced than Stefan, giving him advice of sorts about girls, going into Katherine's room at night (very forward), He seemed smitten with her, but I don't necessarily think she was his first girlfriend or lover. And while he seemed naive, he also seemed pretty confident to me.

[Cattitude]

I don't think we can go by how Damon acts now b/c I'm sorry but Stefan doesn't act like a 17 y/o kid either. Stefan acted very adult in his 1920s flashbacks and all his interactions with Klaus. How they are treated now is very much b/c they have both lived long enough to act like adults regardless how old they were when they died.

 

I actually figured out he is supposed to be 26* which is fine except he in no way acted 9 yrs older than Stefan in the Civil War flashbacks. I don't really care how old he is he just didn't act that old. Plus my netflix synopsis calls them fueding brothers trapped in adolecent bodies, which knowing Damon was 26 always makes me LOL. Given the close relationship Damon and Stefan have and the fact Damon doesn't treat him as a kid bother just a younger brother, the age difference between them in my head is only 3 yrs at most. I know very few sibling that acted as close as Damon and Stefan did in flashbacks who have a 9 year age gap especially back in the 1800s when Damon would have been an adult for 8 yrs.

 

It can be true but I still won't personally believe it.

 

 

*In S02.E14 Stefan told Elena in the cabin he had lived 162 years. We know he was 17 when he died and Elena was 17 at that time so it was two years ago. If Stefan is 164 yrs now and Damon is 173 there is 9 yrs difference in their age.

[amensisterfriend]

What would you guys say are your favorite and least favorite seasons and episodes of the series so far??? And have your opinions changed over time?! 

 

I took a looong hiatus from this show, but I recently watched a few episodes from this current season and was surprised by how entertaining I found it. I think it has to do with managing my expectations: I keep them REALLY, rock bottom low and just resign myself from the outset to hating everything having to do with the Stefan/Elena/Damon triangle and Elena's love life in general :) (Actually, I find Elena and the brothers far more enjoyable when they're interacting with people other than one another.) There are things I enjoy, though: the surprisingly funny snark and sharply written dialogue; the character of Caroline; the overall pace and tone; the fact that there are enough characters and storylines to the point that even when some are fast forward worthy, there are a few I find engaging.   

[blixie]

 

the overall pace and tone;

 

I think this has been a consistent strength of the show even when it sucked (most of S4 all of S5 that wasn't Katherine). It's really a clinic on how to write serially, and to deliver consistent pay offs and they write for an ensemble better than anyone I've ever seen generally. I think that is because they've always been willing to sit out some players for stretches. The dialogue writing is consistently solid as well, and I think more or less they are always careful to take care of big emotional beats. 

 

I pretty much uncritically loved the show through three seasons, but the Damon retcon in the finale was the first what the fuck ever moment, and then in the first part of S4, when they had Stefan do something I felt was both out of character AND unnecessary plot wise (working with Klaus/lying about the cure), it wen to shit for me in one episode. The way they executed things never really faltered for me, I just started to hate the stories they were choosing to tell. 

 

I'm finding this season for the most part enjoyable, and I feel like that is down to Dalena being minimized (literally in terms of on screen having to watch them) and Bamon getting a lot of time to develop their relationship, though weirdly the ensemble writing seems to have fallen apart for them, Matt, Tyler, Alaric, and Enzo all just standing around taking up space. Three of those characters need to go and none of them are named Matt Donovan.

Edited March 20, 2015 by blixie

[amensisterfriend]

pretty much uncritically loved the show through three seasons

 

Woo hoo---I love seeing positive comments about the show! It's got major problems, but I agree that the first few seasons were energetic, amusing, entertaining fun. Even the inevitable angst seemed to fit more naturally and without being too excessive. Dialogue factors heavily into my overall love for a show, and the lines on this show are often so sharply written and quotable that I can handwave away other aspects of the show that don't work for me. (My favorite season is S2 for reasons I'll bore you guys with another time!) 

 

It's really a clinic on how to write serially, and to deliver consistent pay offs and they write for an ensemble better than anyone I've ever seen generally.

 

Excellent point. The thing with this show is that stuff actually HAPPENS, you know?! I realize that's a stupidly simple analysis, but I've been bored into a stupor by such sluggish pacing and so-slow-they-seem-to-be-moving-in-reverse storylines that go literally nowhere on other, allegedly far higher quality shows that just the fact that things happen on this show is a big plus for me even when I don't always love the stuff in question. 

 

I missed most of S4-S5, but I'm planning to rewatch the series from the beginning. If nothing else, at least S4 may make the first few seasons seem even better by comparison, right? :) 

[Smug47]

This show was balls to the wall crazy good in its first three seasons, and should have ended with Elena becoming a vamp. Everything since has been moving Elena and Damon's relationship to the forefront and giving characters boring subplots (remember April? Where the hell did she go?). The story moves along as it always has, at a breakneck speed, but most of the plot threads don't make sense or rewrite everything that came before. I wouldn't mind a good solid ending to this season (which itself has been mostly great with a few low spots) and then a killer seventh season that ends the show. I watch every week and sometimes binge on the first three seasons, but I think it's finally time to put this horse out to pasture. 

[KatWay]

Seasons 1-3 were really good, although the cracks were starting to show as early as S2 IMO - they go for shocking over "in character" or "plausible" a bit too often and it means characters and plots tend to not make sense more often than I appreciate on a show.

Elena becoming a vamp was a big WOW moment, but that was the beginning of the end. I sometimes look at Human!Elena and Vamp!Elena like they're two different characters, only where Caroline became a lot more interesting and awesome, Elena just started sucking.

 

The triangle always hurt the characters involved - Damon was a callous ass for hitting on his brother's girlfriend all the time (even when said brother was abducted/tortured/going insane on a ripper binge, you name it, Damon was NOT the kind to miss an opportunity!) and Elena just ended up looking so flaky and self-centered. Now there's a character who'd benefit from some single time, but I think from what we've seen on the show we could reasonably arrive at the conclusion that Elena would literally croak and die if she didn't have a man's undivided attention for more than a minute.

 

I give them credit for creating some really interesting, cool characters though, even if I don't always agree with how they handle them - the Salvatore brothers and their screwed up dynamic, the Mikaelsons and their even more screwed up dynamic, Caroline, Bonnie (as much as they write her as a straight up plot device instead of a character too often), Anna, Alaric and best of all, Katherine (God, I miss Katherine).

[amensisterfriend]

Lord help me, but I'm actually semi-loving this season. Maybe it's because my expectations of the show are just rock bottom low., so even mediocre episodes come as a really pleasant surprise. Maybe it's that we now know ND is leaving---meaning that the triangle will soon reach a permanent end, which allows me to just enjoy the show more without dreading years and years of continuous ping-ponging back and forth. Maybe it's that for some reason this is pretty much the first time when I find Bonnie an interesting character with a better defined personality. Most likely, though, it's that I'm kind of enamored with Kai :) 

[amensisterfriend]

---After rewatching random episodes, I think S2 is actually my very favorite season. I know many prefer S1, but I just far prefer both Caroline and Jeremy in S2. I'm also really not a Vicki fan. Perhaps most importantly to the success of S2...KATHERINE :) Seriously, she kind of makes the show for me! The plotting and pacing were still highly engaging (even now that I know what happens!) and moved at a breakneck speed, but it hadn't yet spun so wholly off the rails. The main triangle was very THERE, of course, but not to the point where it had entirely consumed the show or made all three characters insufferable for me (yet!)  Character definition and development was never exactly this show's strength, IMO, but back then there were still plenty of reasons to believe I COULD find most of these characters compelling and interesting as long as I was willing to do a tiny bit of fanwanking :) I liked Elijah and Klaus. And the relationship between Stefan and Damon hadn't yet been cast aside---actually, I was pleasantly surprised to see they shared some pretty amazing S2 scenes, albeit not as many of them as I might have liked. 

 

In short (I know...too late!), I'm very pro-S2...and find that it holds up wonderfully well under rewatch. 

[Bort]

Season 2 is my favorite as well. Caroline became a really interesting character as a newbie vampire, Elena was still palatable, the originals were introduced, Tyler was relevant, and they added some great guest characters that I wish they hadn't killed off. I really, really liked Mason and Rose. To this day, I still miss them.

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, I feel like Season 2 is empirically the best season. (Kidding! Everyone is entitled to their opinions.) Season 1 is pretty terrible for the first five episodes, and there's awkwardness even past that point. I don't think it really starts to gel until about Ep 10. And yeah, Season 2 gave me Elijah, and for that alone, it's my favorite.

 

I think my personal order is probably 2, 3, 1, 6*, 4, 5. (*Reserving the right to adjust--haven't been thrilled with the show for the past few eps, but loved the first half of the season.)

Edited April 18, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[KatWay]

I really liked Rose and when she was introduced I was all excited because I thought they'd finally explore Damon becoming less obsessed with the Petrova doppelgangers and having a love interest in his own right (I especially liked how they made a point that Rose had been introduced to Stefan and they'd been "meh" towards each other).

 

Silly me, should have known the only function of Rose was to create angst for Damon and do some triangle promotion.

 

The thing about S2 is: I think it has some great episodes and some great developments (Caroline, Elijah, the Klaus arc, Katherine), but in terms of the triangle it has some of my least favourite Delena interactions. Him telling her he loved her and erasing her memories afterwards and painting that as a super romantic thing (complete with swelling music), Damon murdering Jeremy to punish Elena and that getting swept under the rug, Damon force-feeding Elena his blood and that basically getting swept under the rug as well. I don't know, I kept wondering if they were going for "obsessive, prone to violence and controlling, clearly the guy has issues" or "he just loves her so much and is such a broken woobie". Silly me, should have known it was the latter. They took him too far with too little pay-off for me.

[Aeryn13]

I think Season 2 was the best one in terms of storytelling. It didn`t have the weak and slow beginning of Season 1 and pretty much fired on all cylinders from the start. The only semi-weak part was IMO the thing with the werewolves. But the Sun and the Moon curse being turned on its head? Everything to do with Katherine? Elijah? And the slow-burn to Klaus introduction? Was all kick-ass.

 

Stelena were firmly together back then and since that relationship always bored me to tears, I mostly ignored it. But the point was, I could, because it didn`t overpower the plot. Meanwhile, I felt Delena had some of the steamiest interactions ever during that time. And yet, they, too, didn`t overpower the plot. The triangle played its part but it wasn`t whole point.

 

It also had some wonderful bromance with Damon and Alaric. I`ll never forget this dinner party scene where Damon plans to dagger Elijah and then Alaric gets the info that a normal vamp can`t do that without being killed so he foils Damon plans and they communicate silently with gestures and notes so Elijah doesn`t overhear. Their facial reactions are priceless. 

 

However, I will say that Seasons 3 and 4, while not as good with the storytelling, also had individually good parts for me. There were scenes in both that I loved and/or was very moved by. And I loved the Oiriginal family shenanigans for the most part. 

 

The only Season I pretty much found to be a disaster was 5. Silas was somewhat of a non-starter. Qetsiyah was amusing as a character but I didn`t care for the entire triangle-heavy storyline. The Augustine thing came out of nowhere, though I did like Enzo. Don`t get me started on the annoying chanting Traveller choir. What horrible bad guys. But the worst of all was IMO Katherine taking over Elena`s body and doing nothing but acting stupid and pathetic the entire time. Oh, and the actess who played Nadia - great physical casting in terms of resemblance to Nina but I would have prefered someone with acting skills.

 

They managed to do a good Finale, I will give them that.     

[amensisterfriend]

Okay, here's a fun weekend challenge: If you had to pick 10-15 favorite episodes, which would they be?! And feel free to snark on least favorites as well :) 

[Katherine]

I'm not super familiar with all episodes but I'll give it a shot :)

 

Let the Right One In - I love it when Damon is protective of Stefan. I also enjoy the beginning of the Damon/Alaric bromance.

Miss Mystic Falls - this is the one I used to watch over and over back when I was sort of rooting for Delena.  More recent seasons have caused me to actively root against them, but I still feel like this is a solid episode.

Blood Brothers - any focus on Damon and Stefan's history makes me happy.

Founder's Day - an amazing season finale, with the highlight for me being Stefan saving Damon from the burning building. And the Katherine reveal at the end is amazing.

Katerina - I love Katherine.

Klaus - I hate the character of Klaus but I love me some Elijah.

The Last Day - I love Elena's admission that she doesn't want to be a vampire.

The Sun Also Rises - Jenna's death is heartbreaking but for some reason it's really John's that gets to me.

As I Lay Dying - mostly because I love the fact that Stefan will do anything to save Damon. I wasn't fond of the Damon/Elena scenes.

Ordinary People - I love that Damon is Stefan's humanity and I love that Elena knows it.

Homecoming - in case it isn't already obvious, I'm a sucker for Damon and Stefan sacrificing to save each other.

The Departed - this episode marked the last time I was really excited about the show (up until season six came along and pleasantly surprised me).

Yellow Ledbetter - Bamon!

The World Has Turned and Left me Here - has my all-time favorite scene: the reunion between Damon and Stefan.  Also has some good Bamon moments.

I'm Thinking of You All the While - as much as I've come to dislike the character of Elena and her relationship with Damon, I thought this episode was really well-done. 

[amensisterfriend]

I like that S2 is heavily represented on your list, Katherine! I've been rewatching it and am actually a little embarrassed by just how much I'm enjoying it...and your namesake (Katherine!) is one of the major reasons why :)