S04.E07: Something Stupid

[monagatuna]

I posted upthread that the sad, slow dissolution of Kim and Jimmy's relationship made me worried that he'd suck her back in and something really terrible would happen to her to make her never show up on Breaking Bad...but on second thought, Gilligan & Co. have kept us on tenterhooks in the past only to show us that nothing truly traumatic happened despite our wild speculations. Everyone thought something terrible must have happened to Rebecca, or she and Jimmy had an affair, or some such, when it turns out they just grew apart despite the deep respect they still have for one another. Everyone expected a Smoking Letter from Chuck when he died, but it turned out to be tepid praise. Perhaps this really is the end for Kim and Jimmy, and Kim will move on to have a successful career and just not stay in contact with Jimmy. One of Gilligan's brilliant tactics is to build up the suspense to an anticlimax, and while this is just speculation like everything else, I wouldn't put it past him.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I just rewatched the scene. I think Schweikart started it, in a subtle way, before Jimmy brought up Telluride. After Jimmy reluctantly joins the group and Kim tells him they're talking about company retreats, he says to the group, "That's a great idea. Where are we going?" which is obviously a joke and everybody laughs, but then Schweikart says, "Sorry pal. Employees only." The way he says it seemed deliberately intended to put Jimmy down. But Jimmy doesn't react badly, only says in an exaggerated, jocular bit of disappointment, "Oh darn it!" Then Schweikart says he's thinking of splurging a little this year. "Y'know, don't want to be outdone by the competition. You know, word gets out, you're a cheapskate." I think his talking about the competition has the subtext of being about Jimmy, but his saying he can splurge also is meant to put him above Jimmy. But again Jimmy doesn't get rude, saying, "Sure, sure, that's hard to shake off." Then finally when Scheikart mentions Taos, Jimmy says, "Taos. That's… nice." Scheikart then says, "Feel free to jump in. We're just spitballing here," which again I take as him baiting Jimmy. And Jimmy bites. 

I took it differently.  I thought Richard and Jimmy were playfully bantering with the "Where are we going?" and "Employee's only."exchange.  

It seems like Schweikart had already mentioned Taos, as he said "I still think that Taos is number one."  He actually seemed open to Jimmy's bus ride to Telluride idea, but than Jimmy had to keep taking it further and further to embarrass Schweikart and make him look like a cheapskate.  

Scwheikart has no reason to be bitter towards or belittle Jimmy.  Jimmy is clearly bitter towards Scwheikart for "stealing" Kim, even though it was Kim's idea and it was a direct response to Jimmy wanting to reboot W&M.  

[Blakeston]

I don't think Schweikart was being an outright jerk, or anything like that, but the "employees only" comment seemed a little curt. Jimmy obviously didn't think he was going.

Schweikart may very well have some bitterness toward Jimmy, too, after the humiliating meeting with Chuck in season one, which ended with Chuck's "twenty million dollars" smackdown.

[PeterPirate]

This show has always portrayed Rich Schweikart (and Cliff Main) as upstanding and respectful people.  Rich may have been acting like a boss at a company party, but then again Rich was supposed to like a boss at a company party.  

Besides, Rich could have just as easily been giving Jimmy a little guff to show that that he respects Jimmy as someone who can take a little good-natured ribbing.  (Fans of The West Wing will recognize this from the Ainsley-and-the-dog-on-a-leash scene.)  

Edited September 20, 2018 by PeterPirate
Cliff Main, not Cliff Davis

[Bannon]

27 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Good point that  Hector and the Cousins would never report anything to authorities.  

Gus didn't go as far as I thought with his coati story.  He never actually said he was keeping it to torture it or directly connected the story to Hector.  He finished by saying, "I believe you will wake, Hector."   Even if Hector knows Gus kept him alive so he could suffer, that would not be such a big deal, because they both already know they hate each other.  As long as Hector doesn't know that Gus intentionally stopped his treatment before he could learn to talk and walk again, it will not come back on Gus.

BTW, I was thinking Gus might really love  Nacho now for creating the situation where Hector will suffer so much and so long.   He didn't want Mike to shoot him in the head because it would be far too merciful.  Nacho, inadvertently, gave Gus a better situation than he could have imagined.  

I don't really think her optimism was that unrealistic, especially when dealing with a benefactor as opposed to family members.  If she had seen patients as bad or worse than Hector be able to walk and talk again, she would have every reason for an optimistic prognosis.   At any rate, I think that was put in so we know that Gus probably prevented Hector from ever walking or talking again.  

I am heavily in contact with professionals in rehabilitation medicine. No one with a reputation to uphold speaks with such optimism in these cases. Yes, there are outliers, and that is exactly what professionals say,  that these outcomes are exceptions, and it will take a tremendous amount of work to see if such an exceptional outcome can be obtained. I also work a lot with medical fundraising. A good way to choke off future benefactors is to overpromise with optimism which runs contrary to known facts. Professionals with 3 digit IQs avoid this.

I'm quibbling here, but it was possible to write that dialogue better, and convey the same message. I certainly don't see it as a substantial writing mistake, however.

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I don't think Schweikart was being an outright jerk, or anything like that, but the "employees only" comment seemed a little curt. Jimmy obviously didn't think he was going.

Schweikart may very well have some bitterness toward Jimmy, too, after the humiliating meeting with Chuck in season one, which ended with Chuck's "twenty million dollars" smackdown.

I don't think the meeting with Chuck and Jimmy was humiliating.  It was two sets of lawyers engaging in tough negotiations.  Schweikart seems to appreciate good lawyering by his opposition.  That is why he wanted to hire Kim.   

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

This show has always portrayed Rich Schweikart (and Cliff Davis) as upstanding and respectful people.  Rich may have been acting like a boss at a company party, but then again Rich was supposed to like a boss at a company party.  

Besides, Rich could have just as easily been giving Jimmy a little guff to show that that he respects Jimmy as someone who can take a little good-natured ribbing.  (Fans of The West Wing will recognize this from the Ainsley-and-the-dog-on-a-leash scene.)  

Schweikert's never been portrayed as an outright jerk, but he has been portrayed as somewhat status driven, which is entirely consistent with a person in that position. I think Schweikert's writing has been a really good example of how subtle and nuanced this show is.

[Eulipian 5k]

20 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'd be much more concerned about the ethics of her ceasing therapy that could lead to her patient regaining the power of speech and the ability to walk, because her benefactor told her to, than about her sharing information about his condition with Gus.   

      The special doctor from NYC's best hospital, flying in to ABQ, must be waay more expensive than a local doctor. No hospital or doctor would find fault with Gus saying , "I can't afford this life saving treatment, my Volvo needs new tires"., it happens all the time. (Stephen Hawking gets a voice interpreter, Hector gets a bell!)

[ahmerali]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

I wish we had a thread on this BCS forum for Breaking Bad.  I didn't watch BB when it aired and I have never ventured to any BB forum, anywhere.  

 

ITA.  As I recall, Gus didn't start visiting Hector until almost all of kin had been killed, and his remaining family member was in Mexico.  I would be very surprised to see Gus and Hector in the same room for the rest of the series.   

Man, I love the coati story.  It truly enhances the final face-off between Gus and Hector in BB.  

 

We didn't *see* Gus visiting Hector much. Perhaps he didn't have to do it too often, once Hector was entrenched at Casa Tranquila. He visited him to give him the rundown in person,

Spoiler

after the Cousins died.

Edited September 19, 2018 by ahmerali
Clarification

[Bannon]

I really think the party scene, and then the drive home, are an outstanding example of the quality of this show.The interaction between Schweikert and Jimmy is subtle and nuanced, open to multiple interpretations/explanations, Seehorn's largely nonverbal acting is terrific, and a vast amount of information about the character's inner monologues is revealed. Very few t.v. shows reach this level.

[ahmerali]

1 minute ago, Eulipian 5k said:

      The special doctor from NYC's best hospital, flying in to ABQ, must be waay more expensive than a local doctor. No hospital or doctor would find fault with Gus saying , "I can't afford this life saving treatment, my Volvo needs new tires"., it happens all the time. (Stephen Hawking gets a voice interpreter, Hector gets a bell!)

Cost is not a factor when it is something that Gus Fring wants.

This is a doctor that Gus can control, like Barry Goodman (Goodman? Really? What a coincidence!) who we saw back in Season 2. Remember how in BB, Gus and Mike were both brought in to the makeshift hospital? Mike was in much worse shape, but Dr. Goodman attended to Gus, saying "This man pays my salary."

[Eulipian 5k]

16 minutes ago, ahmerali said:

Cost is not a factor when it is something that Gus Fring wants.

Eggzactly, Gus can afford to buy a wing, (and Curly Fries), for Johns-friggin-Hopkins!,  but the ABQ hospital or the doctor can't force him to keep paying the doctor to stay in town; even if it was a dependent relative. Hector was in a coma when Gus brought in the doctor temporarily.

[Tighthead]

37 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I am heavily in contact with professionals in rehabilitation medicine. No one with a reputation to uphold speaks with such optimism in these cases. Yes, there are outliers, and that is exactly what professionals say,  that these outcomes are exceptions, and it will take a tremendous amount of work to see if such an exceptional outcome can be obtained. I also work a lot with medical fundraising. A good way to choke off future benefactors is to overpromise with optimism which runs contrary to known facts. Professionals with 3 digit IQs avoid this.

I'm quibbling here, but it was possible to write that dialogue better, and convey the same message. I certainly don't see it as a substantial writing mistake, however.

 

How many months post accident is Hector? At least 4, maybe 8?  Improvements would be incremental and slow.

Considering that all he seems to be able to do is move a finger or two, the odds of him ever walking or talking seem overwhelming. BB likely did a good job of showing Hank’s recovery and even that may have been a stretch. 

I agree with your take on Rich. He’s basically a good guy, but any lawyer with his or her name on the letterhead of a big firm is going to come off as cocky at times. 

[Bryce Lynch]

51 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Schweikert's never been portrayed as an outright jerk, but he has been portrayed as somewhat status driven, which is entirely consistent with a person in that position. I think Schweikert's writing has been a really good example of how subtle and nuanced this show is.

I think Schweikart is a not as good looking, better lawyer version of Howard. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Schweikart is a not as good looking, better lawyer version of Howard. 

Schweikert now has Mesa Verde, and HHM doesn't, which suggests that Schweikert is not only a better lawyer than Howard, but also a better manager of a law firm.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, ahmerali said:

We didn't *see* Gus visiting Hector much. Perhaps he didn't have to do it too often, once Hector was entrenched at Casa Tranquila. But I'd bet money he visited him

  Hide contents

after the Cousins died.

Spoiler

Indeed, Gus was the one who informed Hector about the death of the cousins in the shootout with Hank.  I'm quite certain that was Gus' first visit to Hector at Casa Tranquila, since before the shootout Hector was being carted around by the cousins.  And until now it didn't occur to me that Gus was probably the one paying the bills.  

 

Also, Hector may know that Gus hates him, but as far as the cartel is concerned Gus is also the one who saved Hector's life.  Imo Gus cannot show any malevolence towards Hector for the time being, and I still believe Gus was stone cold certain that Hector could not hear him when delivering the coati story.   

 

20 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Schweikart is a not as good looking, better lawyer version of Howard. 

Kim did call Rich "Howard" once.  

[Tighthead]

16 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Schweikert now has Mesa Verde, and HHM doesn't, which suggests that Schweikert is not only a better lawyer than Howard, but also a better manager of a law firm.

That’s extrapolating a lot from one data point. HHM lost the client through chicanery at best, criminal conduct at worst. 

Kim brought it in the door to the new shop, Rich didn’t really do much to land MV. 

[Bannon]

15 minutes ago, Tighthead said:

That’s extrapolating a lot from one data point. HHM lost the client through chicanery at best, criminal conduct at worst. 

Kim brought it in the door to the new shop, Rich didn’t really do much to land MV. 

I said "suggests", not "proves". HHM lost Mesa Verde because Howard was a monumental, towering, moron, with regard to managing an associate, who did the hard,  grinding, work of bringing in a very profitable new client.

Being a better law firm manager than Howard is likely not a terribly high bar to clear. We'll see if he improves, and thus HHM survives.

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I said "suggests", not "proves". HHM lost Mesa Verde because Howard was a monumental, towering, moron, with regard to managing an associate, who did the hard,  grinding, work of bringing in a very profitable new client.

Being a better law firm manager than Howard is likely not a terribly high bar to clear. We'll see if he improves, and thus HHM survives.

Yeah, lets ignore the fact that the associate:

a) Was shacking up with the sleaziest lawyer in town.

b) Talked him into putting his reputation and the reputation of the firm on the line to get that sleazy lawyer a cushy job with a firm HHM was partnering with.

c) That sleazy lawyer she pushed for put out unauthorized ad for the other firm, that enraged the partners.

d) Your associate knew the unauthorized ad was about to air, but chose not to inform you. (Not true, but Kim led him to believe this was the case)

e) The sleazy lawyer your associate talked you into recommending intentionally behaved like a flaming a-hole to get fired by the other firm, but keep his bonus. 

Kim made bad decisions and lost Howard's trust and caused him to harm his reputation.  She needed a change of scenery or more time to try to win his trust back.  Signing a client is great, but it does not prove you have good judgment and can be trusted.  

It is kind of like if a husband cheats on his wife, and she can no longer trust him.  The cheater might become a model husband and do lots of nice things for the wife, and might truly be committed to never cheating again.  But, the cheating husband doesn't get to decide how long he has to be faithful, or how many nice things he has to do,  or how many roses he has to buy her (or big clients he has to sign) before she trusts him again.  Only the wife can decide when the trust has been restored.   If he can be patient and she can learn to trust him again, the marriage might be saved. If the husband can't wait around until she trusts him again, the relationship is probably doomed. 

That same man might be a great, faithful husband to his next wife, but the baggage from his cheating might make reconciling with his first wife impossible.  

Kim was a great candidate for another firm, but her baggage with Howard and HHM would have made it much more difficult for her to have the same success at HHM.  

[Bannon]

24 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yeah, lets ignore the fact that the associate:

a) Was shacking up with the sleaziest lawyer in town.

b) Talked him into putting his reputation and the reputation of the firm on the line to get that sleazy lawyer a cushy job with a firm HHM was partnering with.

c) That sleazy lawyer she pushed for put out unauthorized ad for the other firm, that enraged the partners.

d) Your associate knew the unauthorized ad was about to air, but chose not to inform you. (Not true, but Kim led him to believe this was the case)

e) The sleazy lawyer your associate talked you into recommending intentionally behaved like a flaming a-hole to get fired by the other firm, but keep his bonus. 

Kim made bad decisions and lost Howard's trust and caused him to harm his reputation.  She needed a change of scenery or more time to try to win his trust back.  Signing a client is great, but it does not prove you have good judgment and can be trusted.  

It is kind of like if a husband cheats on his wife, and she can no longer trust him.  The cheater might become a model husband and do lots of nice things for the wife, and might truly be committed to never cheating again.  But, the cheating husband doesn't get to decide how long he has to be faithful, or how many nice things he has to do,  or how many roses he has to buy her (or big clients he has to sign) before she trusts him again.  Only the wife can decide when the trust has been restored.   If he can be patient and she can learn to trust him again, the marriage might be saved. If the husband can't wait around until she trusts him again, the relationship is probably doomed. 

That same man might be a great, faithful husband to his next wife, but the baggage from his cheating might make reconciling with his first wife impossible.  

Kim was a great candidate for another firm, but her baggage with Howard and HHM would have made it much more difficult for her to have the same success at HHM.  

Then you just trust Kim to try to bring in another valuable client. Look, this is management 101 stuff. An employee delivers pot of gold.You pat employee on head, and send them out to get another pot of gold. It is astounding to me that this is a point of debate.

(edit) I will add on that I've never read a good analogy between managing relationships which exist for the purpose of obtaining wealth, and managing family or marital relationships.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Bannon

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Then you just trust Kim to try to bring in another valuable client. Look, this is management 101 stuff. An employee delivers pot of gold.You pat employee on head, and send them out to get another pot of gold. It is astounding to me that this is a point of debate.

(edit) I will add on that I've never read a good analogy between managing relationships which exist for the purpose of obtaining wealth, and managing family or marital relationships.

Does this mean it was wrong for Cliff to have Erin looking over Jimmy's shoulder after the commercial aired?  Jimmy, after all, brought a pot of gold to Davis and Main.  

[Bryce Lynch]

26 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

It is astounding to me that some are astounded by differences of opinion, particularly when it relates to the choices of fictional characters in a television show. Isn't "debate" what these forums are for? 

Getting back to the show...while I am not particularly interested in the underground lab itself, I am intrigued by the impending disaster of keeping these men locked up for months on end. Mike has got some hard choices ahead of him. And I don't expect that Werner and the boys will be getting large bonus checks when the lab is completed. 

It seem like the 2 likely options are:

1) Mike kills Kai.

2) Mike kills all 7 Germans.  

[Ellaria]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It seem like the 2 likely options are:

1) Mike kills Kai.

2) Mike kills all 7 Germans.  

I'm going with #2. I don't think that any of those guys will make it out alive. They know too much. However, Kai may "disappear" long before the others.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Then you just trust Kim to try to bring in another valuable client. Look, this is management 101 stuff. An employee delivers pot of gold.You pat employee on head, and send them out to get another pot of gold. It is astounding to me that this is a point of debate.

(edit) I will add on that I've never read a good analogy between managing relationships which exist for the purpose of obtaining wealth, and managing family or marital relationships.

Trust and reputation are both essential in any business and particularly for a law firm.  D&M didn't care that Jimmy's ad worked, because they believed it could harm the reputation of the firm and cost them much more than it brought in over the long term.  It also caused the partners to stop trusting Jimmy, because he did it without permission.

Kim wasn't fired by HHM.  She was sent back to doc review, where she was when she recruited MV.  If she did it again, and/or (more importantly) regained Howard's trust by not making foolish choices because of Jimmy, for a little while, she might have done great at HHM.  But, she got the S&C offer which got her thinking about leaving and she decided to go into business with Jimmy.   

4 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I'm going with #2. I don't think that any of those guys will make it out alive. They know too much. However, Kai may "disappear" long before the others.

So, Mike is going to kill 7 guys "as some sort of prophylactic measure"?  He told Lydia that doesn't happen in the real world when she wanted him to kill his 11 guys.   I'm not saying I can't see it happening.  But, it would seem a bit inconsistent with Mike from BB.   

[Ellaria]

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

So, Mike is going to kill 7 guys "as some sort of prophylactic measure"?  He told Lydia that doesn't happen in the real world when she wanted him to kill his 11 guys.   I'm not saying I can't see it happening.  But, it would seem a bit inconsistent with Mike from BB.   

I simply responded to the two choices that you presented. I think that it is more complex than what you laid out.

I agree that it doesn't fit with Mike's character. However, I don't see how Werner and the boys get to walk away from this project. (See my previous comment about them not getting "bonus checks.") They may not know ALL of the intricacies of where they are, etc but, IMO, they know too much. And trouble is already brewing. Kai is a wild card and could potentially create problems for all of them.

We know one thing...

Spoiler

We know that the lab is completed and is functional.

The rest is left up to speculation. My guess is that none of the seven survive the project. I'd like to think that Mike will NOT kill all of them. There are, after all, other ways for them to die.

[PeterPirate]

I think it's a given that Gus' construction project is being financed by Madrigal.  

Which makes it likely that these German workers have some connection to Madrigal.  

Which makes it likely that Lydia knows their names.  

[Bryce Lynch]

25 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I simply responded to the two choices that you presented. I think that it is more complex than what you laid out.

I agree that it doesn't fit with Mike's character. However, I don't see how Werner and the boys get to walk away from this project. (See my previous comment about them not getting "bonus checks.") They may not know ALL of the intricacies of where they are, etc but, IMO, they know too much. And trouble is already brewing. Kai is a wild card and could potentially create problems for all of them.

We know one thing...

  Hide contents

We know that the lab is completed and is functional.

The rest is left up to speculation. My guess is that none of the seven survive the project. I'd like to think that Mike will NOT kill all of them. There are, after all, other ways for them to die.

Yeah, the show seems to be hinting that things will not end well for the Germans, but, who knows.  Actually, I'm not sure how strongly the murder of the Germans has been hinted at.  It just seems like we wouldn't see so much of them if something bad wasn't going to happen to them.  "Chekhov's Germans".   It is probably more our assumptions about how things are supposed to turn out on a show like this. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[Bannon]

34 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

It is astounding to me that some are astounded by differences of opinion, particularly when it relates to the choices of fictional characters in a television show. Isn't "debate" what these forums are for? 

Getting back to the show...while I am not particularly interested in the underground lab itself, I am intrigued by the impending disaster of keeping these men locked up for months on end. Mike has got some hard choices ahead of him. And I don't expect that Werner and the boys will be getting large bonus checks when the lab is completed. 

Well, sure  and I have previously expressed being astounded at the opinion that Jimmy is lacking in intelligence, or that Mike is uninteresting. It"s not meant as an insult. I genuinely do not understand why it is not considered very ill advised, in managing a relationship which only exists for the purpose of making money, to punish a party after they just delivered a large amount of money in unexpected fashion.

As to Werner and  his crew, if ya' send them to Belize,  ya'  better make sure that they have not developed some insurance against that eventuality. Werner's a smart guy. I'm pretty sure he can draw a circle around Denver, to the furthest extent they could have travelled by truck; he knows they weren't traveling 80 mph by freeway. The soil they were excavating would inform him of a lot. From this, he could go to an attorney, and say I need you to locate every large commercial laundry within this circle, starting from the outside in. Eliminate the newer buildings. Eliminate those that are owned by large corporations. Focus on those which are owned by tightly held businesses, or individuals. Probably not more than a hundred or two fit the description. Look for owners with a criminal background, or gaps in their history."

It's really hard to maintain a secret like this. It may make more sense to put Werner  at least, on retainer.

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Well, sure  and I have previously expressed being astounded at the opinion that Jimmy is lacking in intelligence, or that Mike is uninteresting. It"s not meant as an insult. I genuinely do not understand why it is not considered very ill advised, in managing a relationship which only exists for the purpose of making money, to punish a party after they just delivered a large amount of money in unexpected fashion.

As to Werner and  his crew, if ya' send them to Belize,  ya'  better make sure that they have not developed some insurance against that eventuality. Werner's a smart guy. I'm pretty sure he can draw a circle around Denver, to the furthest extent they could have travelled by truck; he knows they weren't traveling 80 mph by freeway. The soil they were excavating would inform him of a lot. From this, he could go to an attorney, and say I need you to locate every large commercial laundry within this circle, starting from the outside in. Eliminate the newer buildings. Eliminate those that are owned by large corporations. Focus on those which are owned by tightly held businesses, or individuals. Probably not more than a hundred or two fit the description. Look for owners with a criminal background, or gaps in their history."

It's really hard to maintain a secret like this. It may make more sense to put Werner  at least, on retainer.

Werner has met Fring.  I'm not sure he would cross Fring even if he could figure out where they were.  The only motive would be if he killed 1 or more of his 6 guys and if Fring did that, Werner would probably fear him.  Ratting on a cartel capo is not generally good for one's life expectancy.  If Gus or Mike had the slightest inkling that Werner was going to rat them out, Mike would trust the hole in the desert he buried him in to keep the secret.  

At any rate the process you laid out sounds like finding a needle in a stack of needles.   

[Tighthead]

I don’t see Mike killing anyone beyond possibly Kai. 

Werner et al must have underground connections, and offing them could have repercussions. Presumably they’ve done shady work before, and not been killed. Werner appears to understand the discreet demands of the project. 

I think that Kai being a loose cannon has been overly telegraphed, and his character arc could reverse course and he somehow proves that he is reliable.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Tighthead

[Bannon]

32 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Trust and reputation are both essential in any business and particularly for a law firm.  D&M didn't care that Jimmy's ad worked, because they believed it could harm the reputation of the firm and cost them much more than it brought in over the long term.  It also caused the partners to stop trusting Jimmy, because he did it without permission.

Kim wasn't fired by HHM.  She was sent back to doc review, where she was when she recruited MV.  If she did it again, and/or (more importantly) regained Howard's trust by not making foolish choices because of Jimmy, for a little while, she might have done great at HHM.  But, she got the S&C offer which got her thinking about leaving and she decided to go into business with Jimmy.   

So, Mike is going to kill 7 guys "as some sort of prophylactic measure"?  He told Lydia that doesn't happen in the real world when she wanted him to kill his 11 guys.   I'm not saying I can't see it happening.  But, it would seem a bit inconsistent with Mike from BB.   

We've been over this a few times, so there's no point in doing it again. Howard, to me, is the classic insecure passive aggressive manager who has obtained his position despite having little acumen for it. Jimmy says he's a great salesman, so he likely is. He probably ought to stick to that and elevate one of the other partners to senior status, in charge of managing personnel.

[Eulipian 5k]

Did Werner ever leave the dig site after the crew came to dig? Assuming he didn't, he did meet Gustavo Fring by name on his first trip, so it's not difficult to know where the Pollos Hermanos chain is HQed. (I'm sure the crew was fed that "tasty chicken" some time over 8 months)

I don't think Gus will go all Pharaoh on the crew and kill them after the pyramid is done. That decision to kill the excavators would have been made before hiring anybody, and they did care what first guy would have blabbed about after the job was done.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Eulipian 5k
luv dat chicken!

[Bannon]

21 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Werner has met Fring.  I'm not sure he would cross Fring even if he could figure out where they were.  The only motive would be if he killed 1 or more of his 6 guys and if Fring did that, Werner would probably fear him.  Ratting on a cartel capo is not generally good for one's life expectancy.  If Gus or Mike had the slightest inkling that Werner was going to rat them out, Mike would trust the hole in the desert he buried him in to keep the secret.  

At any rate the process you laid out sounds like finding a needle in a stack of needles.   

In the age of the internet? It is about 10 hours work. I identify prospects by a similar fashion. The speed by which it can be done now, compared to the preinternet era, well  there is no comparison.

(edit) To be clear, the purpose of Werner discovering the location of the laundry would merely be to be able to tell Mike or Gus, before the trigger was pulled, "Hey, I know the location of the lab, and if anything happens to me, that location will be disclosed to the DEA." Gus has to know this is a possibility, which is why it doesn't make much sense to kill Werner.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Bannon

[ShadowFacts]

34 minutes ago, Bannon said:

As to Werner and  his crew, if ya' send them to Belize,  ya'  better make sure that they have not developed some insurance against that eventuality. Werner's a smart guy. I'm pretty sure he can draw a circle around Denver, to the furthest extent they could have travelled by truck; he knows they weren't traveling 80 mph by freeway. The soil they were excavating would inform him of a lot. From this, he could go to an attorney, and say I need you to locate every large commercial laundry within this circle, starting from the outside in. Eliminate the newer buildings. Eliminate those that are owned by large corporations. Focus on those which are owned by tightly held businesses, or individuals. Probably not more than a hundred or two fit the description. Look for owners with a criminal background, or gaps in their history."

He wouldn't have to do all that.  He told Mike he needed utility schematics and Mike said he'd get them.  Even if identifiers were redacted, that would probably pretty much narrow down the location. 

What I wonder about is I thought I saw a worker putting something in or taking something out of machinery when the digging crew was marching in.  Did I see that?  What's up with having other people seeing the men come in? 

[PeterPirate]

44 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

What I wonder about is I thought I saw a worker putting something in or taking something out of machinery when the digging crew was marching in.  Did I see that?  What's up with having other people seeing the men come in? 

I think you may be referring to the laundry workers.  The laundry seems to be up and running, and its trucks would make easy work of removing the excavated rock and soil.  

 

6 hours ago, monagatuna said:

I posted upthread that the sad, slow dissolution of Kim and Jimmy's relationship made me worried that he'd suck her back in and something really terrible would happen to her to make her never show up on Breaking Bad...but on second thought, Gilligan & Co. have kept us on tenterhooks in the past only to show us that nothing truly traumatic happened despite our wild speculations. Everyone thought something terrible must have happened to Rebecca, or she and Jimmy had an affair, or some such, when it turns out they just grew apart despite the deep respect they still have for one another. Everyone expected a Smoking Letter from Chuck when he died, but it turned out to be tepid praise. Perhaps this really is the end for Kim and Jimmy, and Kim will move on to have a successful career and just not stay in contact with Jimmy. One of Gilligan's brilliant tactics is to build up the suspense to an anticlimax, and while this is just speculation like everything else, I wouldn't put it past him.

This does make a lot of sense.  Astronomers debate whether the universe will eventually contract back into a singularity known as The Big Crunch, to be followed by a new Big Bang and the re-creation of stars and galaxies, or whether it will simple expand forever in the The Big Freeze and dissolve into nothingness and meaninglessness.  If the latter scenario is in store for Jimmy and Kim it will be less satisfying from a dramatic point of the view, but maybe it will be more karmically appropriate for them.  

Then again, there's always November 12.  

Edited September 19, 2018 by PeterPirate

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

He wouldn't have to do all that.  He told Mike he needed utility schematics and Mike said he'd get them.  Even if identifiers were redacted, that would probably pretty much narrow down the location. 

What I wonder about is I thought I saw a worker putting something in or taking something out of machinery when the digging crew was marching in.  Did I see that?  What's up with having other people seeing the men come in? 

Those workers are all undocumented, under Fring's control, same as when Walt, Jesse, and Gale were cooking in the basement.

Good point about the utility schematics. if Werner wants to locate the lab, it wouldn't be too hard, and it would be in his interest to do so. Gus ought to know that killing Werner is a good way to get the DEA to come calling at the laundry.

[Ellaria]

2 hours ago, Tighthead said:

Werner et al must have underground connections, and offing them could have repercussions. Presumably they’ve done shady work before, and not been killed. Werner appears to understand the discreet demands of the project. 

Good point. Gus certainly didn't find Werner on indeed.com so it is safe to say that Werner has connections to the shady side of construction. 

[Irlandesa]

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

I said "suggests", not "proves". HHM lost Mesa Verde because Howard was a monumental, towering, moron, with regard to managing an associate, who did the hard,  grinding, work of bringing in a very profitable new client.

His actions towards Kim lost him Kim.  He still had Chuck.  Chuck kept Mesa Verde until Jimmy broke into Chuck's house.

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

Then you just trust Kim to try to bring in another valuable client. Look, this is management 101 stuff. An employee delivers pot of gold.You pat employee on head, and send them out to get another pot of gold. It is astounding to me that this is a point of debate.

 

Giving favorable treatment to certain employees can create a smart productive work environment or a toxic and dysfunctional one.  And it's interesting because Howard is criticized for the way he treated Kim, where he was tough, and he's criticized for the way he handled Chuck, who was a major asset to HHM, where he did bend over backwards.  He was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. 

3 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I'm going with #2. I don't think that any of those guys will make it out alive. They know too much. However, Kai may "disappear" long before the others.

I think the Germans would have to do something exceptional to end up all dead.  They were too careful to conceal the location where they were building from the guys for the endgame to be death.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Irlandesa

[ShadowFacts]

5 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Good point. Gus certainly didn't find Werner on indeed.com so it is safe to say that Werner has connections to the shady side of construction. 

Mike found him and he seems to have a knack for finding the shady types in Albuquerque, but apparently his talent reaches internationally to people who are willing to take long rides with hoods over their heads.

[Irlandesa]

5 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Mike found him and he seems to have a knack for finding the shady types in Albuquerque, but apparently his talent reaches internationally to people who are willing to take long rides with hoods over their heads.

How do we know Mike found him?  I thought Mike was only in charge of bringing them in and interviewing them.  But we saw after Werner's interview that Gus was watching the whole time.

[ShadowFacts]

6 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

How do we know Mike found him?  I thought Mike was only in charge of bringing them in and interviewing them.  But we saw after Werner's interview that Gus was watching the whole time.

You're right, we don't, I assumed it because Mike is Fring's and nominally, Madrigal's, security consultant, and he picked up the first guy at the airport parking.  Could have been Gus, Lydia, another person.

[PeterPirate]

24 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

All his actions towards Kim lost him was Kim.  He still had Chuck.  Chuck kept Mesa Verde until Jimmy broke in.

I suppose it's possible to make the argument that if Howard hadn't moved Kim to the Cornfield, she would not have left HHM, there would not have been a fight for Mesa Verde, and Jimmy would not have broken into Chuck's house to alter the documents.  

But here's a partial counterargument to that.  Kim had already been moved back to her office by the time she left.  And she did so because Chuck had instructed Howard to make it so, an outcome that Howard was none-too-happy about.   

I believe this makes moot the question of whether Howard was a good manager, because he was never really in charge of things at HHM, Chuck was.  It was ironic that Jimmy thought Kim was benched because of Chuck, when in reality the opposite was true.  

Also, going back to the conversation in which Kim asked Chuck if she had a future at HHM, he responded that her real problem was her association with Jimmy.  I love that scene.  It was genuine and it hit the bulls-eye.  As we saw in this episode, no matter where Kim goes, Jimmy will sabotage it unless that place is the Law Offices of Wexler and McGill.  

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

All his actions towards Kim lost him was Kim.  He still had Chuck.  Chuck kept Mesa Verde until Jimmy broke in.

Giving favorable treatment to certain employees can create a smart productive work environment or a toxic and dysfunctional one.  And it's interesting because Howard is criticized for the way he treated Kim, where he was tough, and he's criticized for the way he handled Chuck, who was a major asset to HHM, where he did bend over backwards.  He was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. 

I think the Germans would have to do something exceptional to end up all dead.  They were too careful to conceal the location where they were building from the guys for the endgame to be death.

If you alienate employees when they deliver large profits,  and accomodate partners when they threaten the firm with untenable insurance premium increases, you're doing it wrong, and  yes, you'll likely be damned for it.

I agree with you on the last point.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

I suppose it's possible to make the argument that if Howard hadn't moved Kim to the Cornfield, she would not have left HHM, there would not have been a fight for Mesa Verde, and Jimmy would not have broken into Chuck's house to alter the documents.  

But here's a partial counterargument to that.  Kim had already been moved back to her office by the time she left.  And she did so because Chuck had instructed Howard to make it so, an outcome that Howard was none-too-happy about.   

I believe this makes moot the question of whether Howard was a good manager, because he was never really in charge of things at HHM, Chuck was.  It was ironic that Jimmy thought Kim was benched because of Chuck, when in reality the opposite was true.  

Also, going back to the conversation in which Kim asked Chuck if she had a future at HHM, he responded that her real problem was her association with Jimmy.  I love that scene.  It was genuine and it hit the bulls-eye.  As we saw in this episode, no matter where Kim goes, Jimmy will sabotage it unless that place is the Law Offices of Wexler and McGill.  

If  Chuck was in charge, that's on Howard too. Chuck didn't own more of the firm than Howard. Howard was just being his normal, passive aggressive  incompetent self. I'm curious as to whether Jimmy's no bullshit assessment of Howard's performance as a business owner, many months ago now, had any affect on him.

[PeterPirate]

42 minutes ago, Bannon said:

If you alienate employees when they deliver large profits,  and accomodate partners when they threaten the firm with untenable insurance premium increases, you're doing it wrong, and  yes, you'll likely be damned for it.

I agree with you on the last point.

Well, I can't say that I've ever taken Management 101, nor have I ever worked in a law office.  But I do have a little experience in investing, and as they say, one has to weigh the upside potential against the downside risks in any decision.  Kim beings a considerable amount of both to the table.  It makes for a pretty complicated valuation, I must admit.  

 

32 minutes ago, Bannon said:

If  Chuck was in charge, that's on Howard too. Chuck didn't own more of the firm than Howard. Howard was just being his normal, passive aggressive  incompetent self. I'm curious as to whether Jimmy's no bullshit assessment of Howard's performance as a business owner, many months ago now, had any affect on him.

I'm sorry, but how do you know that?   That factoid does change the analysis when it comes to Howard.   Again, I'm not an attorney so I don't know how law firms work.  But in the show Howard took on a considerable amount of personal debt to be able to stand up to Chuck and push him aside.  Howard must be the stupidest lawyer ever if that was unnecessary.  

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Well, I can't say that I've ever taken Management 101, nor have I ever worked in a law office.  But I do have a little experience in investing, and as they say, one has to weigh the upside potential against the downside risks in any decision.  Kim beings a considerable amount of both to the table.  It makes for a pretty complicated valuation, I must admit.  

 

I'm sorry, but how do you know that?   That factoid does change the analysis when it comes to Howard.   Again, I'm not an attorney so I don't know how law firms work.  But in the show Howard took on a considerable amount of personal debt to be able to stand up to Chuck and push him aside.  Howard must be the stupidest lawyer ever if that was unnecessary.  

There was zero upside to sticking Kim back in doc review, after she  brought in Mesa Verde, and doing so nearly guaranteed that somebody would try to headhunt her. It was stupid. There was gigantic downside to accomodating Chuck's condition. When your business plan includes "Our malpractice insurer will never find out that our senior partner does client work in a home without electric service, and lit by fuel-burning lamps, because he thinks electrical current in the wiring causes him pain", then your business plan is moronic.Howard is an absolutely horrible manager so far.

I don't understand your last point. The fact that Howard needed to borrow a lot of money to execute the buyout agreement is not indicative of Chuck owning more of the firm than Howard. The fact that Howard could execute a buyout at his sole discretion is indicative that Chuck did not own more than Howard. It would be extremely unusual for a partner with a larger ownership share to give a lesser partner such discretion. 

[Madding crowd]

15 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Cops come in just as many varieties as any other means you can come up with of defining a group.  

Most cops I know are paid rather well, with generous enough benefits that most retire by their early fifties, quite comfortably.  Many also worked moonlighting or with some specialty side business of their own for several years, enabling them to live -- and dress quite well.   

This! My husband is a cop and it was incredibly offensive to read that all cops are uneducated, ignorant etc. My husband’s department only hires people with college degrees, most of them work more than one job and they are the same as any profession: most are hard working, decent people.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Madding crowd

[PeterPirate]

9 hours ago, Bannon said:

There was zero upside to sticking Kim back in doc review [1], after she  brought in Mesa Verde, and doing so nearly guaranteed that somebody would try to headhunt her. It was stupid. There was gigantic downside to accomodating Chuck's condition. When your business plan includes "Our malpractice insurer will never find out that our senior partner does client work in a home without electric service, and lit by fuel-burning lamps, because he thinks electrical current in the wiring causes him pain", then your business plan is moronic.Howard is an absolutely horrible manager so far.

I don't understand your last point. [2] The fact that Howard needed to borrow a lot of money to execute the buyout agreement is not indicative of Chuck owning more of the firm than Howard. The fact that Howard could execute a buyout at his sole discretion is indicative that Chuck did not own more than Howard. It would be extremely unusual for a partner with a larger ownership share to give a lesser partner such discretion. [3]

1.  There was downside risk to bringing Kim out of doc review.  Her association with Jimmy already stung the firm once, and had the potential of doing so again.    

2.  My point is that you made the claim that Chuck did not own more of the firm than Howard, and I would like to know if you got that information from the show. If I remember correctly, Chuck owned one-third of the firm, and HHM had eight partners.  I am not aware of any more information about the equity shares.

3.  Chuck told Howard that in order to get rid of him, Howard/HHM would have to pay him $8 million for his share.  

My larger point is that we saw Chuck push Howard around a number of times, and I've always figured that Howard felt he had no choice but to defer to Chuck, either because of his father or Chuck's standing in the legal world or, as we saw, because Chuck could bring down the firm with an internal lawsuit.  This is the first time I've heard that Howard allowed it to happen because he was a bad manager.  I suppose one can make the argument that as the managing partner Howard could have stood up to Chuck sooner, equity shares notwithstanding.  But that strategy also brought its own downside risks, since, as we saw, Chuck's response to Howard's suggestion that he retire was to sue HHM.   

I've always looked at Chuck as a tragic figure in a way, because his destiny was set when his mother begged him to get Jimmy out of possible prison sentence.  Now I am looking at Howard in the same way, because his destiny was set by his father's desire that he join the firm and not strike out on his own.  Maybe we'll get Kim's familial backstory to figure out her attachment to Jimmy.    

Edited September 20, 2018 by PeterPirate
Move a sentence from point 1 to point 2

[MisterBluxom]

On 9/18/2018 at 1:11 PM, Eulipian 5k said:

But Jimmy wasn't running some street hustle scam. He told the cop he had permits & he collected taxes, He was a street vendor, the lifeblood of cities all over the planet. The cop had NO business hassling a vendor because he doesn't like the clientele. GTFOH flatfoot! If people could trump up charges the way the cops do, Huell could claim "He approached my friend in an intimidating manner. My friend was mugged and beaten several weeks ago and as his bodyguard, I acted. Ewwps".

 

They're probably trying to send Huell up the desert for Assault, Battery, & Littering, Plus, he did it to a cop, so that's worse since cops  are extra special citizens.

Quarreling with the cop was stupid. Jimmy would never have done that because he was much smarter than to do that.

The smart thing to do would be to say some bullshit like, "Oh. Gosh. I never realized that. I will have to think about this. Can I get your card so that I can call you back to discuss this after I've thought about it some?

Successful business types play this game real well. They almost never get angry and blurt out a bunch of shit that can come back on them and hurt them. They obfuscate. They delay. They say a bunch of conflicting things designed to confuse someone. They pretend to be friendly and respectful. Finally, they ask if they can get back to the person at a later time. Doesn't matter how the other person answers. They have no intention of ever getting back to them.

They just want to delay so they can think of the best way to deal with this problem. Perhaps they will want to consult a lawyer too. But there is no need to make a decision on the spot and if they take some time to think about it, whatever decision they make is bound to be better for them than making a decision on the spot.

Jimmy has enough smarts and enough experience to know it is a stupid mistake to argue with the cop and give him a hard time. So much better to pretend to be respectful and take some time to decide what he will really do.

Edited September 24, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Bannon]

4 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

1.  There was downside risk to bringing Kim out of doc review.  Her association with Jimmy already stung the firm once, and had the potential of doing so again.  If I remember correctly, Chuck owned one-third of the firm, and HHM had eight partners.  I am not aware of any more information about the equity shares.  

2.  My point is that you made the claim that Chuck did not own more of the firm than Howard, and I would like to know if you got that information from the show. 

3.  Chuck told Howard that in order to get rid of him, Howard/HHM would have to pay him $8 million for his share.  

My larger point is that we saw Chuck push Howard around a number of times, and I've always figured that Howard felt he had no choice but to defer to Chuck, either because of his father or Chuck's standing in the legal world or, as we saw, because Chuck could bring down the firm with an internal lawsuit.  This is the first time I've heard that Howard allowed it to happen because he was a bad manager.  I suppose one can make the argument that as the managing partner Howard could have stood up to Chuck sooner, equity shares notwithstanding.  But that strategy also brought its own downside risks, since, as we saw, Chuck's response to Howard's suggestion that he retire was to sue HHM.   

I've always looked at Chuck as a tragic figure in a way, because his destiny was set when his mother begged him to get Jimmy out of possible prison sentence.  Now I am looking at Howard in the same way, because his destiny was set by his father's desire that he join the firm and not strike out on his own.  Maybe we'll get Kim's familial backstory to figure out her attachment to Jimmy.    

 

This notion that Kim was responsible for Jimmy's behavior "stinging" HHM is dubious at best. Howard was no naif when it came to Jimmy, snookered by Kim's persuasion. Howard managed Jimmy for 7 years! The idea that Kim should be sent to doc review at HHM because Jimmy ran an unauthorized ad at D & M, and then blew up his relationship with them, is also indicative of Howard's ineptitude. The overriding fact is simply this. The purpose of these law firms is to make money. Jimmy bringing Sandpiper to HHM, and thus D&M is going to make these firms literally millions of dollars. Compared to that, the fact that Jimmy didn't get the ok to run an ad all of 1(!) time, and then didn't earn his signing bonus, is trivia, and thus the idea that Kim should should be made to continue to endure doc review, after delivering another pile of cash in the form of Mesa Verde, is absurd.

Is proof of this desired? Well, here it is. Mesa Verde is such a valuable commodity that Kim was able to stroll in to one of HHM's major competitors, and make herself partner (!) because she had Mesa Verde with her! And last we saw, HHM was in danger of insolvency, because Chuck's buyout and death has destroyed cash flow! Might not Mesa Verde be of value to HHM? Might it not have been wise to take measures to retain Kim as a valued employee, instead of relying on your severely mentally ill senior partner to persuade Mesa Verde to stay with HHM! Can Howard not understand that a business plan which includes "Our severely mentally ill senior partner will wear an aluminum foil lined suit, on those occasions where it is deemed critical that he come to the office, or go to regulatory hearings, to work on an important client's affairs, and our malpractice insurer will never find out about it", has some untenable deficiencies? Is Howard ever expected to earn his considerable salary?

I inferred that Chuck and Howard have equal ownership positions by the fact that Howard could, at his sole discretion choose to buy out Chuck, and it would be extremely unusual for a partner who had a greater ownership share to give such discretion to a partner with a lesser share.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Bannon