S04.E04: What to Expect When You're Expecting....an Alien Parasite

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Episode countdown... 1h37m and counting

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Ok, so turns out that not only does Johnny get to play host to Hullen, but The Lady's got plans for him to be a [whatever she is] vessel too?  At least, I'm assuming that that was supposed to be The Lady inhabiting his body in that possible-future!scene (where he's slaughtered TAF in the Royale and kills Dutch).  Man, hope he's got all that covered with a good insurance policy, what with the broken and severed spinal column in there as well.

And I was thinking about it a couple days ago, but tonight solidified it... I speculate that they're going to give DSK a big non-formal 'redemption arc', especially now that she's human again, and she's my immediate guess for ''friend' to TAF that dies in the season's penultimate episode'.  Can't help thinking there might be some 'sparks' between her and D'avin now too, at least until Aneela comes back from Green World.

[shipper moments] H!Johnny called Dutch beautiful and made mention of an aching heart (at long last)!  Even faking his human side  -  I think he was anyways, at least a little bit  -  he still looks at her with total devotion and heart eyes.  If it truly is only platonic, they sure know how to make it look shippy without even trying.   Oh, and I see you writers/ML.  Pip's "So I gotta ask; you and Johnny are close... was it ever more than that?"  Dutch: "Out."  Pip:  "Just asking for a friend."  That 'just asking for a friend' was a total meta moment to us shippers!  Had to be. [/shipper moments]

... But in case it was an actual tie-in to the story, then it proves that the spiders are linked to The Lady [the mumbling whispers heard in the background as Pip was sat staring off into nowhere before Dutch's arrival on the bridge] and she's trying to find out if Dutch and Johnny are more than just friends.  IE, if going after Johnny can make Dutch do what she wants.

When Dutch lost it with D'avin and slapped him, that was a notable scene.  We've seen Dutch angry, but we've never seen her angry.  The way her face contorted and her voice shook with rage as she asked him how he could turn Johnny into "one of those things"?   Hat's off to HJ-K.  She sold it.  This part of the scene was a little bit of a selfishly-called bit of a shippy moment for me as well, with the level of fury and hurt that was on display;  it was her way of saying "How could you do this to my man!?".

I know why it was done different, to make the script work, but didn't previous mythos indicate that H!Johnny's broken neck should have started healing almost instantly?  But instead, it hadn't even barely started when the scene was with Zeph and how guessticulated that severing the spinal cord would kill the green parasite(s).  I know its done on every show, but seems like the canon mythos took a backseat to immediate storyline there.

That said, yay to Johnny being human again!  I loved H!Johnny in 4.2, but I realized after watching 4.3, that H!J would grate fiercely.  Glad they didn't overdo it.  Thanks to TPB on that call.

Green-repellant to Hullen transfusions during pregnancies are a no-go.  Future reference.  I did find it adorable how the baby quieted and cooed after being placed in daddy's arms, and the look on D'avin's face.  Poor DSK.  Has to deal with real and full emotions again. 
Zeph: "What do you feel?". 
DSK: "Everything.  And I hate it." <--- while holding her baby, no wonder he was crying.

Kinda lame that we have to wait to see exactly how Aneela helped Dutch get out of the Green, but I'm guessing it'll be a somewhat major plot point when it finally comes around.  & now Aneela is The Lady's new (and only) chew toy.  But, uhm, real!G-Khlyen?  There was one, or else why would TL!Khlyen have to torture Dutch about trying to figure out why the story of her & Johnny was so important.

TA/Pree is getting some real quality time and scenes so far this year.  Loving it.

Watch out, Turin (& Fancy)!  *cues the karaoke machine up*  These Hullen[TL] eyes, are watching you!  Hullen[TL] eyes, watching you!  Watching you!

I want to say that I'm loving how serialized this show has become.  There are some brief 'this could be standalone material' bits here and there, but for the most part, everything is staying tightly tied in together.

Edited August 11, 2018 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[HerkyJerky]

  I LOVE this show but I still can't figure who (or what) TAF is?

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Quote

 @HerkyJerky said:  I LOVE this show but I still can't figure who (or what) TAF is?

TAF  =  Team Awesome Force.

Think it started out as a sarcastic nickname for D/J/D, from Turin.

Edited August 11, 2018 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[johntfs]

9 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I know why it was done different, to make the script work, but didn't previous mythos indicate that H!Johnny's broken neck should have started healing almost instantly?  But instead, it hadn't even barely started when the scene was with Zeph and how gesticulated that severing the spinal cord would kill the green parasite(s).  I know its done on every show, but seems like the canon mythos took a backseat to immediate story-line there.

Actually, destroying-the-brain/severing-the-spinal-cord-at-the-neck has been the go-to method for killing Hullen in the past.  Zeph just took it a step further with the idea of killing the Hullen but quickly repairing the injury to save the host.

Edited August 11, 2018 by johntfs

[tessaray]

Another awesome episode. That said, I could use a standalone episode right about now, just to catch my breath and process it all. 

[thuganomics85]

More good news, bad news!  The good news is that thanks to Zeph, they find a way to make John human again!  The bad news is that according to "Khylen's" premonition, John will end up killing Dutch, D'Avin, and everyone else still.  I guess The Lady will end up taking him over, somehow?  Of course, I doubt everyone will die when it is all said and done, but I have to imagine there will be some casualties.

Speaking of which, it looks like Della Seyah has been turned human again, so that she could give birth, which makes me believe that she is destined to die soon.  The question is will be a death where she sacrifices herself to help the good guys, or will she become an enemy again?

Rob Stewart was having a ball playing this version of Khylen.  He and Hannah John-Kamen work great together.

Aww, despite the circumstances, it was nice seeing how happy D'Avin was to be a father (and John/Dutch's reactions too.)

[Guest]

Out there theory. 

The baby is the vessel for the Lady and the rapid aging and the Jaqobis DNA and the Lady knowing that Johnny/Dutch is somehow important leads to the baby being the spitting image of Johnny and rapidly all grown up.  And the baby was the one that is supposed to kill everyone in the future.

Bonus points if they get Aaron's twin to guest star.

[Terrafamilia]

Hmmm, if The Lady doesn't know how to get out of the Green how does she know how to get the spiders out of the Green? (unless this is supposed to be a clue that they are not really related to one another)

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

47 minutes ago, Terrafamilia said:

Hmmm, if The Lady doesn't know how to get out of the Green how does she know how to get the spiders out of the Green? (unless this is supposed to be a clue that they are not really related to one another)

Maybe its something about The Lady itself/herself/whatever that prevents her from leaving the Green under her own power.  But she can use or control the spiders as a spy network & enforcers/assassins when need be.

(*shrugs*  Just pulling guesses out of a hat, at this point)

 

4 hours ago, tessaray said:

Another awesome episode. That said, I could use a standalone episode right about now, just to catch my breath and process it all. 

I'm going to take some time and rewatch the S3 finale, or last couple eps, plus all the aired ones to get a feel for if the binge-method really helps improve understanding and retaining info.

Oh, what a chore!  Woe is me.....
[j/k]

Edited August 11, 2018 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[tennisgurl]

2 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Bonus points if they get Aaron's twin to guest star.

Ohhhh, great idea! Make use of the twin! Its not the first time the Ashmore twins have played doubles. 

Another great episode, although so much shit is going down, I am starting to get tired! In a good way! Looks like things are getting even crazier, with the goo turning solid, The Lady manifesting, and a super scary vision of a super crappy future. I dont think everyone is really going to die, but I do suspect not everyone will get out of this alive. Which sucks, because this one of the rare shows where I actually like everyone, including the minor characters, and would miss them if they died. It seems like it might be Pop, as he infected with the creepy spiders, but who knows? 

So Delle Seyah is back to being human. I wonder if she sticks with the good guys, or goes back to being an antagonist. You know, I think I might actually be alright with a Delle Seyah redemption arc, if its done right. I suppose as long as Dutch and Aneela are on the same side, she will keep working with them to help her girlfriend, but she has actually shown some growth this season, helping some of the prisoners on the repo man prison, and she seems to have actually grown found of the Jaqobis brothers. But I still appreciated Pree reminding her that he hasn't forgotten what she did, even if they're on the same side now. I think thats the best way to handle it if they want to keep her around as an ally to the team. 

Oh, I have such Dutch/Johnny feels! Even Hullen/Human hybrid Johnny cant stop giving Dutch heart eyes and telling her how beautiful she is. And I dont think Ive ever seen Dutch as pissed as when she realized that D'avin had turned Johnny Hullen. They just mean so much to each other! Him breaking his own neck because it hurt to look at D'avin and Dutch with his messed up emotions was seriously fucked up. Poor Johnny. But its alright now, because Johnny is back to normal! Hullen Johnny was fun, but if he was around any longer he would have probably outstayed his welcome, so I am glad to have Johnny back. At least, until maybe whatever happens in the future happens...

The vision with Johnny killing tons of people and being all "why the hells is Johnny" and Aneela starring down the lady with "I am not locked up with you, you are locked up with me" have to be references to Captain America: Winter Soldier and Watchmen, respectively. With Delle Seyah reading a comic book during her pre-labor, I think they have to be. 

[Guest]

Is there actually any reason to believe that the Lady can see the future?  Is this something we've been made privy to before?

And if not, isn't it more likely that this is a way to manipulate Dutch.  It came on the heels of the Lady, in the guise of other people, forcing Dutch to relive her most painful memories.  I think its entirely possible that this is a way to mess with Dutch's head or the Lady's plan but is not inevitable.  Now, since it is TV that scene will probably still play out because they set it up like it needed to be paid off at some later point.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

38 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Is there actually any reason to believe that the Lady can see the future?  Is this something we've been made privy to before?

And if not, isn't it more likely that this is a way to manipulate Dutch.  It came on the heels of the Lady, in the guise of other people, forcing Dutch to relive her most painful memories.  I think its entirely possible that this is a way to mess with Dutch's head or the Lady's plan but is not inevitable.  Now, since it is TV that scene will probably still play out because they set it up like it needed to be paid off at some later point.

You bring up good points.  She proved she could read memories, but not project the future - other than the implanted visions she put in Dutch's head.

After some time to think and ruminate, I really do think the spiders are The Lady's doing.  Because if that really is a true vision and that really is Johnny - his body, at least - then it could be a spider that's taken him over, and right now, the leading suspect is Pip doing to Johnny what was done to him in 4.2.

[MissLucas]

Well, I'm glad Pree's still holding a grudge - and so am I, so I'm not too bothered by DSK's supposed redemptive death. 

I like that the fast pace of this season - no filler episodes please! They managed to solve both 'medical emergencies' in one episode - Zeph rules!  And we finally met the Lady, not that we got some real answers about her but the tidbits we got were intriguing. As for her vision of the future: all scenarios are on the table. She was either working with Dutch's worst fears or she had a real premonition - that was either spiderized Johnny or miracle baby after another Hullen growth spurt or maybe Zeph's treatment wasn't as thorough as she thought and Johnny can be re-activated. Whatever is going on is definitely tied to Khlyen's story. I'm looking forward to see how it will all unfold. I must say that was a great writing move to bring Johnny to the front and center of the plot - not that he was not important so far. But he was never at the center of an arc's mystery like D'avin or Dutch - he was the very valuable side-kick, the heart and soul of TAF but never the key to the great mystery/problem. 

Rather ominous that Pip was not present during that last scene. Speaking of ominous: look behind you Turin!

Edited August 12, 2018 by MissLucas

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

25 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Well, I'm glad Pree's still holding a grudge - and so am I, so I'm not too bothered by DSK's supposed redemptive death. 

I like that the fast pace of this season - no filler episodes please! They managed to solve both 'medical emergencies' in one episode - Zeph rules!  And we finally met the Lady, not that we got some real answers about her but the tidbits we got were intriguing. As for her vision of the future: all scenarios are on the table. She was either working with Dutch's worst fears or she had a real premonition - that was either spiderized Johnny or miracle baby after another Hullen growth spurt or maybe Zeph's treatment wasn't as thorough as she thought and Johnny can be re-activated. Whatever is going on is definitely tied to Khlyen's story. I'm looking forward to see how it will all unfold. I must say that was a great writing move to bring Johnny to the front and center of the plot - not that he was not important so far. But he was never at the center of an arc's mystery like D'avin or Dutch - he was the very valuable side-kick, the heart and soul of TAF but never the key to the great mystery/problem. 

Rather ominous that Pip was not present during that last scene. Speaking of ominous: look behind you Turin!

Great points all around.

And I am very down with this.  I'm all about TeamJohnny.

[SimoneS]

I am not enjoying this season. First, the story with Dutch/Anela/Khylen/the Lady is too convoluted and I don't like how they edit the scenes. Second, I despise Delle Seyah for killing Pawter and hundreds, if not thousands. I despise how most of them have seemed to move on and accepted her. She should thrown out of the ship now that she has given birth.

Edited August 12, 2018 by SimoneS

[tessaray]

Even though I am enjoying this season, I don't disagree about it being convoluted.  One thing that irritates me is when shows move the goal posts, like Aneela was the big bad, until she wasn't. Then it was the Lady and who knows, maybe by the end of this season it will be something/someone else?    

I wish I didn't like the actress who plays DSK so much, because the character really is reprehensible. But between Dutch owing a debt to Aneela for saving her life and not being willing to waste any possible weapon that would help them in their fight, I can accept that they would not kill her out of hand.   

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

First, the story with Dutch/Anela/Khylen/the Lady is too convoluted and I don't like how they edit the scenes. Second, I despise Delle Seyah for killing Pawter and hundreds, if not thousands.

[SimoneS]

8 minutes ago, tessaray said:

One thing that irritates me is when shows move the goal posts, like Aneela was the big bad, until she wasn't. Then it was the Lady and who knows, maybe by the end of this season it will be something/someone else?    

And before Aneela was the big bad, it was Khlyen, and before him it was the nine Qresh royal families. The showrunners have been making it up as they go along. I think it is a good thing that there is only one more season.

[tessaray]

It would be nice if they could circle back to the nine and tie things together somehow.  

[MissLucas]

Well, the show's writing has always been convoluted. I've given up understanding the mechanics of the green goo a long time ago. That said some rough master plan seems to be in place: the Lady was first mentioned in episode 1 of season 2 - we just assumed that she must be Aneela (who at that point had just appeared in D'avin's  vision).

[johntfs]

I still think one of the most interesting things about Kendry is the way she came to care about other people/beings while Hullen.  She was decent to the prisoner woman last episode.  The main reason she threatened Dutch was out of deep concern for Aneela and what happened to her.  Finally she didn't want to be cleansed because she wanted to keep her Hullen abilities to be able to protect her baby from the Lady.

Poor Pree got knocked out.  Still, he should have known not to screw with pregnant women, especially Hullenized pregnant women.

Edited August 13, 2018 by johntfs

[tennisgurl]

I mean, the greater arcs on this show are always rather convoluted and quickly moved on from. Like, I still dont know exactly what the goo is and how it ties into Dutch's backstory with her fallen family and the Nine, or if it has anything to do with that and Aneela and whatever else. But, it doesn't really distract from my enjoyment of the show. The characters are so well done and likable, and the world is so interesting and allows for so many adventures, that I can kind of hand wave some of the plot stuff. I hope that they can wrap things up before the show ends, and maybe get back to the stuff with Westerley and the Nine, but I am just enjoying the ride for now. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

On 8/11/2018 at 1:51 PM, ParadoxLost said:

Out there theory. 

The baby is the vessel for the Lady and the rapid aging and the Jaqobis DNA and the Lady knowing that Johnny/Dutch is somehow important leads to the baby being the spitting image of Johnny and rapidly all grown up.  And the baby was the one that is supposed to kill everyone in the future.

Bonus points if they get Aaron's twin to guest star.

Good theory;  but unless it was a lie that the Jaqobis' DNA that resides in the baby is D'avin's and is instead Johnny's, then how could the D/A/DSK-hybrid baby grow in to an exact copy/clone/replica of Johnny?   Hullen manipulation of physical features and aesthetics??

.... just trying to think it out in my head.....

Hold up.  Wait a minute  --  how sure are we that the Hackmod/Livio/Niko storyline is over and done with??  What if the "Johnny" in the future!vision turns out to be a Hullen'd 'skin-job'?

[sjohnson]

Jumping to the end, Dutch conquers all. Sufficiently woobified villains all survive, due to Dutch's heroism and miraculous generosity of spirit. One or more awesome characters die in a tribute to Dutch's even greater awesomeness. To book end, "The warrant is all!" comes up, naturally or not. Nothing in the plot actually matters.

The only real question is, Dutch/Johnny? The show has, despite its risque talk, always committed to the proposition that platonic love is the purest love. So desecrating Dutch's coolness with real love, including actually needing someone as a person rather than a doll, pet or trophy, would be kind of a let down. So slightly more likely Dutch sacrifices happiness in the name of purity, and no D/J.  I think. But Johnny's self-sacrifice being the greatest tribute of all still seems a distinct possibility. (If it was me, I'd have Dutch marry both, splitting MWF and TThS, and Sundays to rest. But then I don't think much of platonic relationships outside of extreme mismatches in age or sexual preference or species.) 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I understand your POV, @sjohnson, and I share it to some bit of an extent.

But if the D/J only stays platonic - at least by the truest definition - then they really need to stop rubbing salt in the wound.  Latest example being Pip's questioning (for a friend) if Johnny and her had ever been more than just friends.  I mean, we're still having this brought up over 3 & a third seasons into this now and these aren't even Pip's first scenes/season, but he just asks out of the blue?  [although, I still think its the spider / The Lady speaking through him].  Really??

I personally consider D/J to be more than platonic, but in my mind-canon they've come to a silent understanding that they don't want to mess it up with the physical stuff, so go to others for those needs and they do everything else romantic relationship partners do together [IE, emotional-sharing/living together/etc].  If, and until, the story does 'go there';  that's how I'm viewing it.

[johntfs]

9 hours ago, sjohnson said:

But then I don't think much of platonic relationships outside of extreme mismatches in age or sexual preference or species.

One of the best things to me about Elementary is the close platonic relationship between hetero( or bi)-sexual Sherlock Holmes and heterosexual (and female) Joan Watson.  "Non-sexual life partners" is a description that fits them perfectly.  Is it really too much to ask that in the vast territory of "one true pairings and romances" in the TV multiverse that there can be two platonic relationships between men and women?

Edited August 16, 2018 by johntfs

[sjohnson]

Platonic friendships as I understand them require both fidelity and celibacy between the partners. As to Elementary...Sherlock gets to have a sex life, which rules out a true Platonic friendship. Joan gets to be virtuous. 

At the beginning, Dutch treated Johnny like her GBF, but the show really butched him up. In the flashback episode they highlighted the change visually by putting Johnny in guyliner. And the story had him nearly taking up a prostitution job. Aaron Ashmore wanted to play more heroic, sort of like Michael Shanks straightening Daniel Jackson. 

Hannah John-Kamen is pretty awesome, though no human can be as awesome as the show thinks Dutch is. Aaron Ashmore is charming, despite lapses into grimdark BAMF cliches, and Luke MacFarlane is VFX for beefcake. I just couldn't help making fun of how busy, busy, busy the plot is going in circles. I watch the show to laugh, and I do.

Edited August 16, 2018 by sjohnson

[johntfs]

13 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Platonic friendships as I understand them require both fidelity and celibacy between the partners. As to Elementary...Sherlock gets to have a sex life, which rules out a true Platonic friendship. Joan gets to be virtuous. 

Joan also gets to have a sex life as demonstrated in the most recent episode.  Presumably you have really good friends with whom you don't have sex?  That's pretty much a platonic relationship.

[tessaray]

In the Killjoys verse, sexual mores are so alien to my own that I don't even try to define the characters in that way. I see the D/J relationship as all part of the larger "Dutch in the normally male role of kick-ass, emotionally damaged action hero" thing. I have no idea where they will end up, though I can also see when those two are in a room together, everyone else is on the outside. Their (AA/HJK) chemistry really subverts whatever story the writers are trying to tell.  

[sjohnson]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Joan also gets to have a sex life as demonstrated in the most recent episode.  Presumably you have really good friends with whom you don't have sex?  That's pretty much a platonic relationship.

Quit watching Elementary. But if Joan starts having a life outside the brownstone with the SO, then good for her. In a platonic relationship, you organize your life around each other. In friendships, you don't. I happen to believe friends usually don't have benefits, but then it's just friendship. Yes, simple friendships are indeed possible between male and female, just as they are possible between young and old, rich and poor, healthy and handicapped, beautiful and not. Curiously, those friendships are rarely depicted. Interracial friendships are fairly common but rarely depicted in convincing detail. Sometimes I'm afaid I get the impression they are put in to integrate the cast.

Sorry, but it just seems like you're redefining friendship as platonic. When a friendship more or less excludes another relationship, it is not in my opinion redeemed by avoiding nasty, dirty sex. 

[johntfs]

On 8/16/2018 at 11:19 AM, sjohnson said:

Quit watching Elementary. But if Joan starts having a life outside the brownstone with the SO, then good for her. In a platonic relationship, you organize your life around each other. In friendships, you don't. I happen to believe friends usually don't have benefits, but then it's just friendship. Yes, simple friendships are indeed possible between male and female, just as they are possible between young and old, rich and poor, healthy and handicapped, beautiful and not. Curiously, those friendships are rarely depicted. Interracial friendships are fairly common but rarely depicted in convincing detail. Sometimes I'm afaid I get the impression they are put in to integrate the cast.

Sorry, but it just seems like you're redefining friendship as platonic. When a friendship more or less excludes another relationship, it is not in my opinion redeemed by avoiding nasty, dirty sex. 

From the Wikipedia on Platonic Love"

Quote

"Platonic love in its modern popular sense is an affectionate relationship into which the sexual element does not enter, especially in cases where one might easily assume otherwise."

So I'm defining platonic love in the modern sense.  Dutch had/has no problem being with D'Avin sexually.  Johnny likewise had no problem being with Pawter.  No relationships are being excluded either here or on Elementary.

Edited August 17, 2018 by johntfs

[sjohnson]

The modern popular sense means "nonsexual." This is not actually very useful. You have this kind of Platonic relationship with your next door neighboor, the mail carrier and the clerks at convenience stores. I don't see how the term "roommate" doesn't cover everything better for Dutch/Johnny, Sherlock/Joan, or Pete/Myka and Fitz/Simmons for whole seasons. 

As I say, I've not been watching Elementary, so what they've been up to I can't say. But I will say that on Killjoys Johnny being with Pawter was leading very clearly to Johnny not living with Dutch, because, behold, he's with Pawter. That's why the show killed Pawter off, I think. An outside relationship was in fact impossible for the Killjoy characters. And I still don't see how Dutch/Johnny is one bit better because it's Platonic. I do hope you realize I don't expect to convince anyone who feels love is purer without sexual feelings. It was a random post about why I can't love Killjoys, though I do find it entertaining enough to watch.

Edited August 17, 2018 by sjohnson

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, sjohnson said:

As I say, I've not been watching Elementary, so what they've been up to I can't say. But I will say that on Killjoys Johnny being with Pawter was leading very clearly to Johnny not living with Dutch, because, behold, he's with Pawter. That's why the show killed Pawter off, I think. An outside relationship was in fact impossible for the Killjoy characters. And I still don't see how Dutch/Johnny is one bit better because it's Platonic. I do hope you realize I don't expect to convince anyone who feels love is purer without sexual feelings. It was a random post about why I can't love Killjoys, though I do find it entertaining enough to watch.

At this point on Elementary, Joan is planning to adopt a baby, so there has been some cool conversation between her and Sherlock about his role in her potential child's life.

For my part, I don't see Platonic love as somehow purer/higher than sexual love, but it is at least different.  So I do like the way that Killjoys shows that Dutch and Johnny love each without necessarily being "in love" with each other in a romantic/sexual sense. 

Edited August 17, 2018 by johntfs

[statsgirl]

In many cultures one's closest relationships are with same-sex friends and non-sexual rather than with one's spouse.  It comes from the role differentiation between the sexes among other things but I don't see why it couldn't also apply to friends who are male and female.

In our society a "work wife" or "work husband" is often closer to the person than the spouse they are sleeping with.  Our belief that one person should be everything, best friend as well as sexual partner, is an uncommon one in our history.