Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Sakura12]

I was being sarcastic as well. Laurel's sufferings were suffering anyone can go through, while Sara's were things no one should ever have to go through. Sara has continued to pay for her sins, she's haunted by everything she's seen and done. 

[Primal Slayer]

When your only family that you were close to cuts ties to you, that can be a pretty big deal. Quentin did corner Laurel and point a gun at her, would he have shot her? Probably not but Nyssa interrupted. And he didn't start his manhunt for Oliver until the mayor was killed by fake!Arrow.

 

I'm annoyed that Teds character had to come to such a sudden end, if anything they should've just recast the character. They basically ignored Laurels training with him afterwards. Which not showing us any training in general is annoying.

[dtissagirl]

I'm really bitter they tied Sara's resurrection to Laurel because that's the only storyline they could give her.

 

They could have made Malcolm do it to manipulate Nyssa, or to try and undo what he did to Thea last season. They could have used the whole mystical motif of the season, and somehow tie Sara to Thea's LP side effects -- maybe Thea's anguishing about having killed Sara, and bringing her back is the only way to give Thea enough peace of mind to beat the LP curse, or whatever.

 

But they had to give Sara to Laurel, because there's nothing else in the narrative for her. Grr. Argh.

[AyChihuahua]

I would have voted for either Malcolm or Rip Hunter.  It's probably better for the Arrow narrative for Malcolm to have done it some time ago, but with LoT coming up, it would make perfect practical sense for Rip to have done it somehow.

[bijoux]

I also liked someone's idea of DD doing the resurrecting in order to keep Lance in line.

[Primal Slayer]

I would've preferred if it were Malcolm or DD then they could've had Laurel actually help in saving her sister. The story would've been so much better and give it more emotional weight.

[tangerine95]

They had to give Laurel something to do but there's nothing they could come up with other then Sara for like the second year in a row.Even in season 2 Sara was half her storyline.

They just can't fit her in the narative at all.Its been 3 seasons of huge arcs like the LoA plot that she's not even aware of and it makes no difference on the show.I doubt the HIVE arc is going to need her presence at all either.

[EmeraldArcher]

I'm going to preface this by admitting that bitterness is an intense emotion that sometimes clouds one's better sense. That said . . .

I'm so bitter that LL has to SWF all the fabulous characters I love! We've covered her SWF-ing of Sara plenty, but I'm still, um bitter, about her 402 scene with Digg in the van. I hated her otherwise innocuous blathering about being hungry at the start of the scene because that is the type of thing Felicity would do or say. But, Felicity would be adorable because it's in character for her to get preoccupied about something like that. When Laurel did it, she just grated because she followed it up with "John?" like "why aren't you paying attention to me and my adorable babbles? You always think Felicity is adorable. I'm adorable, too. Tell me I'm adorable. John?!"

Why does this bother me so much when she dug up her own sister at the end of this episode? Why? Because I'm now so blinded by bitterness that LL continues to sully everything.

ETA: minor error fixed caught by proof reading

Edited October 19, 2015 by EmeraldArcher

[Cerulean Blue]

I'm so bitter that LL has to SWF all the fabulous characters I love! We've covered her SWF-ing of Sara plenty, but I'm still, um bitter, about her 402 scene with Digg in the van. I hated her otherwise innocuous blathering about being hungry at the start of the scene because that is the type of thing Felicity would do or say. But, Felicity would be adorable because it's in character for her to get preoccupied about something like that. When Laurel did it, she just grated because she followed it up with "John?" like "why aren't you paying attention to me and my adorable babbles? You always think Felicity is adorable. I'm adorable, too. Tell me I'm adorable. John?!"

That scene bothered me SO MUCH. Honestly, even more than the resurrecting Sara scene (just because the selfishness inherent in resurrecting Sara after being told that resurrection had seriously traumatized and messed up Thea was just so Laurel that I didn't really expect anything different).

 

But that "why am I still hungry" babble was straight-up Felicity, which really, really annoyed me. Especially since KC just can't pull off cute babble. I've never seen her in anything else except an episode of New Girl and the 5 minutes she's in that movie Taken, but from what I can tell, adorable babble isn't exactly her acting strong suit. So rather than being cute or whatever they were going for, it just felt awkward and like she was repeating lines from a script. Which, yes, I realize that is what actors do, but good actors make you forget that. And I never seem to be able to forget that when Laurel's on-screen, particularly when she's repeating lines that other actors on the show could somehow manage to imbue with some kind of depth and/or personality.  

 

As Laurel, KC can do bitchy/annoyed pretty well. She can't seem to do cute or sympathetic or athletic. And with each episode, I'm getting more and more bitter that the writers keep trying to fit her into a role she's not cut out for while taking away scenes from actors who are cut out for those scenes. 

[EmilyBettFan]

All I see on screen is KC. With her millions of rings. LL never wore all those In season 1. It's just so weird.

All I see on screen is KC. With her millions of rings. LL never wore all those In season 1. It's just so weird.

[bijoux]

All I see on screen is KC. With her millions of rings. LL never wore all those In season 1. It's just so weird.All I see on screen is KC. With her millions of rings. LL never wore all those In season 1. It's just so weird.

Didn't she? I feel like she did in either S1 or S2 because I definitely noticed them and thought they were unusual at her job.

[Genki]

Didn't she? I feel like she did in either S1 or S2 because I definitely noticed them and thought they were unusual at her job.

 

They were an S2 introduction...

[kismet]

The further she moved from the LI role, perhaps the more rings she added. Maybe its a reverse metaphor or coping mechanismm

[AyChihuahua]

IRL her supervisors would tell her to remove some of her 8,000 rings.  Trial attorneys have less room for individual style than regular attorneys, because they wouldn't want the judge and especially jury making decisions about a client based on the attorney's appearance.  

Edited October 20, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Morrigan2575]

I still care about QL. I know he did bad things last year, but I can't help it. (I will go hide in my little corner) I feel like his character can be redeemed.

 

I still care about QL and I think it's because I didn't watch a lot of those S3 episodes.  I had no idea that when QL was going after The Arrow it was in collusion with LoA/Ra's Al Ghul.  I thought he was just lashing out in anger and using the LoA/Fake Arrow killing the mayor and others as a way to get revenge.  Yes, I was totally annoyed by the hypocrisy, he's trying to destroy Oliver/Arrow while protecting LL/Because Comics but I guess I didn't realize the extent of what they did to his character last year.

[Guest]

I still care about QL and I think it's because I didn't watch a lot of those S3 episodes.  I had no idea that when QL was going after The Arrow it was in collusion with LoA/Ra's Al Ghul.  I thought he was just lashing out in anger and using the LoA/Fake Arrow killing the mayor and others as a way to get revenge.  Yes, I was totally annoyed by the hypocrisy, he's trying to destroy Oliver/Arrow while protecting LL/Because Comics but I guess I didn't realize the extent of what they did to his character last year.

 

They really did destroy him, IMO. The thing is, I don't blame Quentin for being mad. He had every right to be mad. Laurel's lies were inexcusable. I don't care about her reasons. Keeping his daughter's death from him was wrong.

 

But that's where it went sideways for me because, as usual, Laurel got away with it (aside from a few episodes of him being mad at her) and Oliver got the full brunt of his anger. And he still is, even now. It's so misplaced it's not even funny. And I'm incredibly bitter about that. 

 

Maybe things will improve this season. Maybe Quentin will come to realize the benefits of having masks in the city. But I just don't really care either way anymore. It's a shame.

[kismet]

The extent of the character damage that they did to QL in the name of plot or propping other characters (like his daughter) makes me very concerned and pre-emptively bitter for what they might do to Diggle. Two characters in s3 I think got the worst of the character assassination for plot & prop. First was FS and second was QL. They can restore some FS's damage through her relationship with OQ & giving her PT. Likewise, they can have QL repair it through improving his relationship with TA or going off the rails to either redemption or demise by his work with DD.

 

The problem is with JD the road to repair is not as easy, which is why I need him off of the road to destruction soon (but I don't see that happening). JD cannot have romantic fun scenes with OQ that can remove some of the tarnish of RP. Likewise, he can't go off and live in the C line subplot because he's a main & core part of TA. So I'm bitter because I see the writers taking him down a destructive road for his character for plot/prop reasons and I don't see them being able to get him back. That makes me both bitter and worried for JD; and frankly pissed at the writers.

[Happy Harpy]

(Sorry for raining - or sunshining- on your bitterness but)

JD cannot have romantic fun scenes with OQ that can remove some of the tarnish of RP.

Cheer up! He can have fun bromantic scenes with Oliver and OTA Mission Impossible with Oliver/Felicity...the power of the three is strong!

Plus, Diggle has a seekrit weapon: His adorable Sara! Man with great muscular arms+ his cute little baby= many of us (well, me) forgive!

 

[mode bitterness on]

The more I think of it, the less I can find a rationale behind showing Sara's decaying body, and the more pissed-off I get that after her gruesome death and her literal fridging, she had to suffer the indignity of being seen in that mummified state.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[kismet]

(Sorry for raining - or sunshining- on your bitterness but)

Cheer up! He can have fun bromantic scenes with Oliver and OTA Mission Impossible with Oliver/Felicity...the power of the three is strong!

Plus, Diggle has a seekrit weapon: His adorable Sara! Man with great muscular arms+ his cute little baby= many of us (well, me) forgive!

Thanks! That does make me feel a little better. I guess I'm still recovering from the horror that was s3 & my bitterness can spiral with the potential destruction they can cause. I just want Diggle back before they do stuff that is irreparable to his character. I can forgive him for sure, but sometimes its hard to forget stuff. There are still things that I can't unsee or forget about FS/QL as a result of s3 that impacts how I see them now.

 

A perfect example of that is FS keeping from OQ about working with TAless. Rather than accept that it was just a natural side effect of being in a new relationship or out of concern for OQ, my head immediately went to questioning her actions because in s3 she had kept stuff from RP because of reasons that I attributed to trust & comfort level. So I began to wonder does she not trust OQ as much as I thought she did? Is she not comfortable in the new relationship? If s3 had never happened to FS, I never would have had these questioning thoughts.

 

Another perfect example is QL hitting OQ in police custody for obvious reasons.

Edited October 20, 2015 by kismet

[millennium]

Sometimes I think Laurel is a handy scapegoat for all the things wrong in this series.   I don't deny that her character is two-dimensional or that she's had no good storylines, but I contend this has little to do with the character herself (or Miss Cassidy) and everything to do with what a clusterfuck Arrow has become. 

[Pyramid]

Sometimes I think Laurel is a handy scapegoat for all the things wrong in this series.   I don't deny that her character is two-dimensional or that she's had no good storylines, but I contend this has little to do with the character herself (or Miss Cassidy) and everything to do with what a clusterfuck Arrow has become. 

I'd say the shoe-horning in of MM and LL as BC in S3 were the clustery fuckest parts. Garnished with a shite Ras.

[millennium]

I'd say the shoe-horning in of MM and LL as BC in S3 were the clustery fuckest parts. Garnished with a shite Ras.

 

I wouldn't disagree, although in my book "Olicity" is Public Enemy No. 1.    I thought Oliver was at his best when his priorities consisted of defending his city, his family, and trying to be worthy of his father's sacrifice.

[tangerine95]

I don't think the show is so bad and Laurel just takes the blame for it.Its not even close to a perfect show but they did a good job making us care about the characters and plot or we wouldn't be here talking about it as much as we are.The writing failed almost every character at some point in more or less damaging ways but Laurel is the only one constantly being badly written.I can't think of a single thing they did right with her.Her story line is always the weak spot for me from her love triangle in season 1,her addiction in season 2,the BC arc in season 3 and now this with Sara.

[kismet]

I wouldn't disagree, although in my book "Olicity" is Public Enemy No. 1.    I thought Oliver was at his best when his priorities consisted of defending his city, his family, and trying to be worthy of his father's sacrifice.

Just out of curiosity...in your perfect Arrow would OQ have no romantic love interest at all? He would do his missions and come home to empty house. When you say his family, I'm assuming that means just Moira & Thea. So he would never be building towards having a family of his own? Some people are married to the work, so just curious if that is the lifestyle that you want OQ to aspire to? Or is it that you just don't like the pairing of O&F?

[tarotx]

Oliver has always had a love interest and not just save the city and spending time with his Mom and sister (And now mom's dead and sister is an adult). I don't think the family time was that much. I always wanted more Moira. I can see the issue of change if one loved the procedural aspect of the Oliver saving the city but a huge chuck of that was Oliver helping out Laurel and as well as leading to the end game of the undertaking. Though I guess they still didn't have a large chunk of scenes devoted to 1 women since Oliver was also with sex partners and friends. Oliver had a larger in show world and there were less mask heroes. But as the heroes came less and less people are in Oliver's world. The Mayor's race might fix that problem so we'll see.

[Guest]

Each to their own, not everyone is going to like Olicity, but seeing how good they are this season when they're actually together just proves to me that the only bad thing about Olicity in s3 was the contrived way they kept them apart. Oh, and the dumb love triangle that no one asked for or needed. No one ever comes out of a love triangle looking good tbh. Olicity s3 just went against every natural strength of their dynamic. 

 

I still think forcing MM into the show and the terrible way they made Laurel BC were the worst things s3 did, including killing Sara just to make that happen. I still get ragey thinking about it. Oh, and Ra's al Ghul. The lamest villain this show has ever done. Terrible! 

 

All s3 proved to me is that when you start relying too much on comic canon and costumes at a detriment to the characters already built over three seasons, you're gonna have a problem.

 

I realize this post just went off on a random tangent but whatever. Haha.

[Sakura12]

Speaking as someone that doesn't care about Olicity (I've just stopped shipping couples all together). They were the least of the show's problem last season.The problem was everyone caught the Stupid Disease, the main symptoms include acting completely out of character for the sake of the dumb plot of the week or episodes arc. 

 

Keeping Malcolm around when he should've been killed or thrown in a deep dark hole never to be heard from again because of what he did to not one but three female characters. Using his own daughter Thea to kill Sara a family friend, then making the woman whose love he killed kneel before him and take orders from him. That guy should've gotten a bullet between his eyes at the end of the season, not given a bunch of assassins to rule over. 

 

Laurel is another fail character that they keep forcing on us with no idea what do with her. Yeah she's got the mask now but she still just there and adds nothing to the shows main character which should be the point of the show. If she's got nothing at all do with him, she's unnecessary. Arrow is not an ensemble show no matter how many times they say it is. Arrow is called Arrow because it's supposed to be about Oliver Queen. I see the Buffy excuse, however all the other characters were connected to Buffy in some way, even if they were the significant other of another character. They were still part of Buffy's story even if they were given an ep or two devoted to them. Buffy was still the main character that everyone revolved around. Laurel is barely even Oliver's friend (she shouldn't even want to be his friend) and they are making her friends of convenience with everyone else or using them get what she wants. We didn't see any natural friendships grow between Laurel and the team. She just showed up and forced her way onto the team and the only reason is because that's what the comics say. 

[tangerine95]

Yeah for me the biggest problem last season was that the show was relying to much on the comics to explain why we should care about certain characters or buy their hero arcs.

The only reason Laurel had to become BC was comics,Ray's suit had nothing to do with Arrow but were supposed to care because he's a DC hero,Ra's was supposed to be a great villain just because of his comic book reputation but on the show he just came across as weird old guy obssesed with Oliver.The thing with Malcolm was mostly about keeping JB on the show IMO.And I do think he has some value to the show unlike Ray and Laurel but they made a mistake trying to reedem him at one point though they did give that up and by making other characters stupid to fit him in.

About them separating OTA I think right now its for plot.They need Diggle separated for his HIVE and his conflict with Oliver,I just hope they don't drag it out too long.I really do think they know what they have with OTA and are aware that's the only team people really invested in.They prove that every time the season finale is near and they need good ratings and OTA is front and center.They're still trying to fit in Laurel and dealing with and overcrowded team though.IMO they will come a point when they give that up and focus on what works.If people aren't investing in the new team they will change things,they already changed a lot of things for the better in season 4.

Edited October 21, 2015 by tangerine95

[Primal Slayer]

Laurel/Thea were the saving graces of S3 for me, but even then we got to much tell and not enough show. It annoyed me how we never got an actual training session with Laurel/Nyssa and how Laurels training with Ted was dropped completely. And I hate that bastard police stick they stuck her with as a weapon.

 

I was watching The Flash and I noticed how well they integrated everyone into the group and gave everyone an important purpose to it as opposed to Arrow where they don't really try and just create petty conflict just for the hell of it. Season 2 I wish could get a redo to a certain extent.

[millennium]

You never saw Batman saddled with a needy girlfriend and he did just fine -- so well in fact that the Arrow writers swiped his storylines when they ran out of original ideas.

 

Keeping my fingers crossed it's Felicity's grave.

Ray's suit had nothing to do with Arrow but were supposed to care because he's a DC hero

 

Ray was a problem too, a distraction and a waste of air time.

Edited October 21, 2015 by millennium

[AyChihuahua]

You never saw Batman saddled with a needy girlfriend and he did just fine -- so well in fact that the Arrow writers swiped his storylines when they ran out of original ideas.

Bruce Wayne has had a series of serious and less-serious love interests.  Is that would you would like for Oliver?

[Password]

Bruce Wayne also isnt particularly emotionally healthy is he? It seems that's something the writers are striving towards.

[AyChihuahua]

I can't think of any human or human-like comic book superhero for whom romantic relationships are not a major part of their stories.  I mean Galactus, sure, maybe The Beyonder, but not humans/human-like aliens.  Even Thanos had a romantic relationship, with the female embodiment of Death.  I particularly can't think of any tv shows with superhero-type characters that have zero romantic relationships.  Even Sheldon Cooper, who's nearly asexual, has had at least one important romantic relationship.

[tarotx]

Do we want Oliver to be Batman now? I thought the goal was to get him to be the fun witty bantering playful superhero?

 

I do get having characters you don't like get screen time. But the show has slowly increased Felicity's role into Love interest which the show had trouble with. Now Felicity is the actual girlfriend and so far the dynamic is good like it did in season 1 and 2. So far me it's working. I love happy more mature thinking Oliver. 

 

Imo the first season is always a starter season and then they make changes throughout the season and season 2 and that really forms the foundation of a long lasting show. Arrow tried to go back and that is what happened in s3 imo. They bought Malcohm back into the fold, The worked to get Laurel on her BC trajectory and they placed Felicity into a Gloom filled Love triangle that ended in tragedy. Yes Ray isn't dead but he was still killed off for the characters. (Ray just didn't mean as much as Tommy). Which is the same thing they did with Eddie in the Flash Season 1 finale.

[tangerine95]

I never read the comics so I'm not sure about Batman there but in every movie about him he always had a love interest and their love story always got a lot of focus.That's just how works on screen.A romantic relationship is a part of life and a great way to explore characters.

[Delphi]

You never saw Batman saddled with a needy girlfriend and he did just fine -- so well in fact that the Arrow writers swiped his storylines when they ran out of original ideas.

Let me introduce you to one, Vicki Vale, a love interest so needy she felt the need to out Batman's secret identity to the whole world because he wouldn't be honest with her.

[millennium]

Bruce Wayne has had a series of serious and less-serious love interests.  Is that would you would like for Oliver?

 

That would be fine.     Sorry to go against the grain, but a superhero as one half of a yuppie couple is something I don't find very interesting.

Do we want Oliver to be Batman now? I thought the goal was to get him to be the fun witty bantering playful superhero?

 

 

Green Arrow was historically one of the grouchiest, most cantankerous superheroes in DC's stable.  Constantly chafing against everyone, even his friends.

I never read the comics so I'm not sure about Batman there but in every movie about him he always had a love interest and their love story always got a lot of focus.That's just how works on screen.A romantic relationship is a part of life and a great way to explore characters.

 

It could also be that I don't find Felicity a very good or especially convincing leading lady.

[tarotx]

Some times. He has a dry humor.  Sometimes he's like an old man viewing the changed world but figuring out his place in it still. Much different than viewing from a damaged soul. 

 

And if we are talking comics, doesn't Oliver have a comic love interest?

That would be fine.     Sorry to go against the grain, but a superhero as one half of a yuppie couple is something I don't find very interesting.

 

Green Arrow was historically one of the grouchiest, most cantankerous superheroes in DC's stable.  Constantly chafing against everyone, even his friends.

[millennium]

Some times. He has a dry humor.  Sometimes he's like an old man viewing the changed world but figuring out his place in it still. Much different than viewing from a damaged soul. 

 

And if we are talking comics, doesn't Oliver have a comic love interest?

 

I haven't read a Green Arrow adventure in some time, but yes, he had a longtime relationship with Dinah Lance, the Black Canary.    A bit of a curmudgeon in that relationship.   I sometimes wondered why Black Canary put up with him.

[looptab]

I have to disagree with the notion that Ray was killed off for O/F, that just doesn't make sense. When Ray "died" Oliver and Felicity were already riding towards their honeymoon, that joke of a triangle long forgotten already. Ray died for his spin-off.

[millennium]

Let me introduce you to one, Vicki Vale, a love interest so needy she felt the need to out Batman's secret identity to the whole world because he wouldn't be honest with her.

 

I wasn't aware of Vicki Vale's later storyline.   Thanks for letting me know.

[Delphi]

Because she didn't? She broke up with him and divorced him.

[millennium]

Some times. He has a dry humor.  Sometimes he's like an old man viewing the changed world but figuring out his place in it still. Much different than viewing from a damaged soul. 

 

 

 

I think that's a very good characterization of Green Arrow.  

[AyChihuahua]

That would be fine.     Sorry to go against the grain, but a superhero as one half of a yuppie couple is something I don't find very interesting.

...

It could also be that I don't find Felicity a very good or especially convincing leading lady.

I see.  It's not Oliver having a love interest that you have an issue with, but this particular love interest.  Now I understand.

[wonderwall]

I don't really understand... Oliver on the show has different experiences than Oliver in the comics. People who go through different experiences in life often behave differently. Oliver went through hell, 5 years of not knowing whether he's going to live or not, GA went through something different (even though I don't really know what that is)... So from the premise alone, I don't understand why people would WANT Oliver to be like GA from the comics because it wouldn't suit the narrative. 

 

That being said, I don't know why people are so up in arms about romance on this show right now when there has always been romance on this show, and the romance before was terrible imo. Take LL for example, in S1, she was consistently made into the damsel and was pretty much useless. McKenna was barely a blip on the radar. Sara took care of herself, yes, but she wasn't what Oliver needed or wanted. Helena was batshit crazy...

 

Why is it an issue now? Is it because he's actually happy? And No, Oliver shouldn't be happy? Or is it because there shouldn't be love interests in comic book shows? Is it because the romance is too cheesy? Aren't romances usually cheesy during the honeymoon phase (which is technically what Oliver/Felicity are in)? 

 

So many questions... But I don't think I'll ever really understand. 

 

In the end Felicity helps bring out a side in Oliver that's yet to be seen, a healthy side. She herself is capable and mentally/emotionally strong. They don't compromise who they are or their beliefs or their dignity to be with one another. They have a healthy, trusting, honest, open relationship which is all that matters to me. Asking for anything else is essentially asking for more romantic drama. So.............

Edited October 21, 2015 by wonderwall

[hogwash]

S03 made it clear that they can and will inject drama in the most inorganic and stupid way possible for plot reasons. People should want the show to pick one couple and keep them together. All the alternatives they've done have been either boring or unbearable to watch.

[tarotx]

She didn't. She divorced him. And now the Black Canary has been rebooted again to the Dinah Drake married to a Lance version. 

I haven't read a Green Arrow adventure in some time, but yes, he had a longtime relationship with Dinah Lance, the Black Canary.    A bit of a curmudgeon in that relationship.   I sometimes wondered why Black Canary put up with him.

[EmilyBettFan]

Oliver's character goes up points when he's with Felicity. He makes her a better person and vice versa.

The show will lose important things if Felicity is the one to go. I would seriously hope they are smart to get rid of characters that just haven't worked for 3+ years.

[BumpSetSpike]

Why is it an issue now? Is it because he's actually happy? And No, Oliver shouldn't be happy? Or is it becuase they don't like the love interest? Is it because the romance is too cheesy? Aren't romances usually cheesy during the honeymoon phase (which is technically what Oliver/Felicity are in)? 

 

 

I think it is because people are so gung-ho against Felicity that they can't see something positive regardless of what it is.   I don't agree - but right or wrong, I guess I am starting to feel the same way about LL.

Edited October 21, 2015 by BumpSetSpike

[statsgirl]

The writing failed almost every character at some point in more or less damaging ways but Laurel is the only one constantly being badly written.I can't think of a single thing they did right with her.

I've got one -- being trained by Nyssa. If they had to speed jump her into the Black Canary, Nyssa was the right person to train her and their milkshake scene was cute.  (Of course, they may shoot all that to bits given the graverobbing but we'll see.)

 

I disagree that The Flash has integrated every character well.  They've always had and continue to have a huge problem with Iris, who coincidentally is the Laurel-equivalent on that show (canon love interest, people lied to her). Like Laurel, she either has her own storyline that has nothing to do with the Team crimefighting, or she's an awkward addition to the Team (all those pep talks in 2x01).

 

If I want to watch curmudgeonly men who can't deal with a real relationship, I'll watch NCIS.  But then, that's the reason I stopped watching that show.