Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[lexicon]

If Ras & MM had minded their own business in s3b, there never would have been a R/F. He would have come back from the dead & straight into FS's bed. RP never stood a chance once OQ stepped back into the game. FS just about said that in 317. That man would have fiercely wooed FS back, RP or no RP.

 

I would have loved that, to have seen  OQ woo Felicity onscreen, her obviously in love but skittish to risk her heart on him after his flip flopping before. That would've been the kind of angst I could get on board with. It would've made sense both to the characters and where they were at that point of the story and could've been emotional yet satisfying unlike what we actually got onscreen.  

[AyChihuahua]

Oh, I meant if they'd left him alone after Felicity slept with Ray (the Cane Toad).  Oliver still would have been expecting RAG to come after him when he returned, so he still would have hooked up with MM.  But if, say, RAG had just killed MM at the end of 3.15 and sent Oliver and Digg back with no conditions, telling Oliver they're all good and the LOA is off his jock, I bet Oliver would have started wooing Felicity.  I think he'd decided he was wrong when he said he couldn't be with her, based on the wedding lust/heart eyes and wanting her attention, leading to his shirtlessness in that episode.

 

I don't disagree with you at all that he should have been shirtless more, btw.  I doubt it would have helped with Laurel, as she's seen his scars and never seemed all that interested.  She didn't have much of a reaction to or interest in her sister's scars, either.  But it is a good reminder for the audience, at least. 

 

I HATE the brand.  The other scars are reminders of what he's survived, but the brand is a reminder of his idiocy and planned suicide.  I so wish Felicity would program some nanobots to get rid of it.

Edited September 4, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[kismet]

I'm not a huge fan of the brand either. But it does show how much he was willing to sacrifice to save his sister. It's more noble in my mind. I don't see it as a reminder of his idiocy & planned suicide. I truly believe OQ thought he could infiltrate LoA & destroy it from the inside with as little collateral or intended damage to others, esp his loved ones. And then he planned on returning to SC mission completed. I really don't think he knew about the destruction of SC until after he had gone through his LoA initiation, I think both Ras & MM kept that a secret. Not many people become heir to the demon, so I don't think it was common knowledge even for Maseo or Sara. He had partnered up with MM prior to the initiation to have an ally to help him, because MM was knowledgeable about LoA but also expendable. He was in too deep with little ways out and he didn't want to risk the lives of his loved ones (F & D) unless he absolutely had to. He was the living embodiment of stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

But I would have no problems if they visited a plastic surgeon & somehow got that brand removed over the summer. I hate the nanobots, so I don't really want to see them on Arrow again. OQ doesn't need RP's tech to fix him. Maybe he'll just have some magical herbs lying around.

[AyChihuahua]

Oh, I'm going to disagree forever that he didn't know the LOA would attack SC as part of his ascension to RAG.  I 100% believe he knew when he made the deal for Thea, and I think that's pretty clear in the show.  That's a major part of the reason I don't consider him to be much of a hero anymore.  I am positive he planned to work to prevent the attack, but I am sure he knew RAG would attack.

[tarotx]

Ra's was already attacking the city. Rather Oliver became the next Ra's or not, the current Ra's was hell bent on destroying Starling City. And, in fact, As for as Oliver would be able to tell becoming the Heir to Ra's and taking the LOA out from the inside gave the city time.

Edited September 4, 2015 by tarotx

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, Ra's was going to destroy the city anyway, because he wanted to get at Damien Darhk. Oliver didn't know that, but his giving into Ra's did give him some lead time to stop it. Granted, that didn't figure into his decision-making process, but I don't think agreeing to Ra's proposal makes him less of a hero, especially since his plan was to defeat Ra's from inside the League, not only stopping the attack on SC, but also ridding the world of the threat of the LoA. 

[kismet]

AyChihuahua - We'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree :) No hard feelings.

 

I'm just glad its over with. I'll forever be bitter at how s3b was handled from the LoA & Al-Sah-Him perspective. It was just dumb plot for plot, with predictable gotchas & twists. All they did was ruin their characters for a few moments that amounted to a whole lot of nothing, but the results of the bad characterizations linger. It could have been something really interesting & groundbreaking, but instead they settled for the crap they gave us. If you wanna push the envelope, you have to be willing to jump. It reminded me of the obnoxious kid in summer camp that climbs up the ladder to jump off the really high diving board... walks to the end... chickens out & then has to climb all the way down in embarrassment. They talked a big game, but there was little to back it up.

[tarotx]

Not just because of DD but Ra's knew how to get to Oliver. Ra's and the league was killing people before he took out Thea. That was Ra's threat to get Oliver to agree.

[statsgirl]

Oh, I meant if they'd left him alone after Felicity slept with Ray (the Cane Toad).  Oliver still would have been expecting RAG to come after him when he returned, so he still would have hooked up with MM.  But if, say, RAG had just killed MM at the end of 3.15 and sent Oliver and Digg back with no conditions, telling Oliver they're all good and the LOA is off his jock, I bet Oliver would have started wooing Felicity. 

But Felicity was already sleeping with Ray then. She started when Oliver and Diggle pushed her out of their bromance before they left for Nanda Parbat.  Oliver still thought he couldn't be with Felicity and still be the Arrow, and even less likely that he would fight Ray for her when he wanted her to have a life outside of vigilantes.

 

It didn't make sense that Oliver expected Ra's to come after him in 3x12 to the extent he was willing to team up with MM, and then thought he could just turn Ra's down in 3x16 and everything would be copacetic.  Either the man has a pash for you, or he doesn't.

[AyChihuahua]

But Felicity was already sleeping with Ray then. She started when Oliver and Diggle pushed her out of their bromance before they left for Nanda Parbat.  Oliver still thought he couldn't be with Felicity and still be the Arrow, and even less likely that he would fight Ray for her when he wanted her to have a life outside of vigilantes.

 

It didn't make sense that Oliver expected Ra's to come after him in 3x12 to the extent he was willing to team up with MM, and then thought he could just turn Ra's down in 3x16 and everything would be copacetic.  Either the man has a pash for you, or he doesn't.

Oh, I know she slept with Ray in 3.15. So say that on the jaunt to NP RAG told Oliver he was going to kill MM, and otherwise no harm, no foul re Oliver. So Oliver returns to SC without RAG or MM on his mind. I think he would have been upset to discover she slept with Ray (which I have no problem with except the fact that it was Ray, eww forever). I think, in an AU, he would have realized that minus MM and minus RAG he made a mistake re Felicity and would have tried to woo her away from Ray.

[kismet]

Felicity sleeping with Ray will never not be eww.

[statsgirl]

But wouldn't the problem that happened in episode 3x01 still be there -- that he thinks he can't be Oliver Queen (and in a relationship with Felicity) and be the Arrow?  He also thought that Felicity deserved a relationship with a normal guy not a vigilante  Sucky reasoning (bitter!) but still fundamental to the season 3 arc.

 

It took 1. finding out that having been rejected by Oliver, Felicity found the closest vigilante to date and 2. Ra's taking away the whole Arrow persona from him that made him finally try to be with Felicity.  Without the second, there is still no reason for him to change his mind, and without the first, he'd probably be too honourable to try to break up what seemed Felicity's happy relationship with Ray.

[AyChihuahua]

But wouldn't the problem that happened in episode 3x01 still be there -- that he thinks he can't be Oliver Queen (and in a relationship with Felicity) and be the Arrow?  He also thought that Felicity deserved a relationship with a normal guy not a vigilante  Sucky reasoning (bitter!) but still fundamental to the season 3 arc.

 

It took 1. finding out that having been rejected by Oliver, Felicity found the closest vigilante to date and 2. Ra's taking away the whole Arrow persona from him that made him finally try to be with Felicity.  Without the second, there is still no reason for him to change his mind, and without the first, he'd probably be too honourable to try to break up what seemed Felicity's happy relationship with Ray.

That is my point, I think he realized he made a mistake. Thus the 3.16/3.17 heart eyes and shirtlessness. Not that anything major had happened, just that Oliver realized he'd make a mistake. I don't think an epiphany always requires a major event, sometimes it's just time and a cascade of minor-ish events.

[AyChihuahua]

From SA interview:

"He hasn’t had too many good breaks, basically since the mid-way point of the second season when Slade Wilson shows up at his house. That can become a little tiresome for me creatively..."

Love it!

[EmilyBettFan]

Yeah really stunt work is becoming the same over and over again. Im sure he loves it but, he's an actor too. If he wants to be seen like I think he does he needs better writing to elevate his performances.

[loki567]

I hate to be prematurely bitter about season four before it begins, but did anybody else think the season four trailer looked terrible? Maybe it was the placeholder music but everything felt extremely cheesy to me. And something about having four or five different costumed heroes doesn't work. Just feels like it undercuts Oliver's importance. And then the obvious bad dialogue that spells out the show's themes, not good:

[wonderwall]

I the weak points of the trailer were:

• Music 
• No sense of urgency 
• Amount of masks
• It doesn't seem like JUST Oliver's story anymore? IDK why I felt like that but I didn't like it

 

Other than that, I thought it was good. I liked the dialogue. I liked the villain. I liked the new characters. 

 

I just think that it was a poorly made trailer because I don't even think they planned it? They just shoved a few fight scenes, Olicity scenes into it. 

Edited September 8, 2015 by wonderwall

[Angel12d]

I definitely got the sense that Oliver is kind of being pushed out of his own story but then that happened last season too so it's nothing new. I'm hoping they were just trying to make everyone happy and it's not indicative of things to come. Because this show is called Arrow, not the Justice League.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Angel12d

[HighwayFlower]

That's what annoys me too. Black Canary, Laurels version or otherwise, should not be a regular on a show called Arrow. She should be recurring. One superhero with his team and I guess maybe a sidekick is enough.

[kismet]

On the positive side, if they are a "team" with no leader, then everyone shares the workload - but more importantly the blame. I am tired of everything being OQ's fault. I get his broody internalization of guilt for stuff that has happened (esp to loved ones) that he feels directly or indirectly responsible for. His guilt complex is truly a fascinating psychological study. But seriously, I am over everyone blaming him for everything. During s3, there wasn't one thing that he managed to get right until the end - and even then people still managed to question him or place blame.

 

Every week he was getting a weekly report from someone on his "team" about how he was failing them or the city. No wonder he was so eager to peace out by the end, I was right along with him. You think you can do all of this without me, just go ahead & try. If them being a "team" means that he gets to share the burden of the responsibility & the blame, then it might be a welcome change. At this point, I know who the MVP & Captain of the team is. I don't want to see him marginalized on his own show (that's bullsh*t); but I don't want his leadership to be the scapegoat for every little mishap or bad thing that happens.

[tarotx]

As long as Oliver also has a life outside the "cave" it won't be as bad that there are other masks. During S3 we lost Present day Oliver. The Arrow was all we had so when they emphasized the other masks and sidelined the Arrow, it was a different show than the one staring Stephan Amell's Character.

Oliver does need to get out of his own head a bit and be a team player for his own growth but Oliver Queen is the star and why I watch the show. And since this is a show called the Arrow, I do want to see Oliver kicking ass and being a strong fighter though one who can't do it all so needs a team. Being in a "family" that actually support each other is one of the things Oliver really needs to become a real boy. He can be single focused but when he has to do more than one thing he makes bad choices. And that is where having a true support system (family and true friends) comes in.

[BumpSetSpike]

• It doesn't seem like JUST Oliver's story anymore? IDK why I felt like that but I didn't like it

 

 

I feel the same way.  Oliver's story is what originally got me hooked onto this show.  I'm not a comic book person so I didn't care about canon or fitting in other characters into masks.  #SuperheroesRUs

 

I'm actually hoping more for awesome flashbacks this season than I ever have because that leads us closer to where we met Oliver at the beginning, and that is what I want to see develop. 

 

I've somewhat accepted that the show I was obsessed with is over, and yet I still cling to hope (obviously I am still here) that this season there may be some answers or even closure to the original story.

Edited September 8, 2015 by BumpSetSpike

[kismet]

I do worry about the middle of s4. I also worry about their preexisting plans from other seasons interfering with how the story has changed. LL is no longer the LI. SL is supposed to be dead. FS & Dig were supposed to supplementary players, but are now a big part of who OQ is. However, last season it felt like the writers were just playing a game of substitute into the plot structure they had planned years ago. That type of writing is problematic because the characters are so different and unique from each other. They can't just substitute FS into LL's role, or minimize Dig's involvement to make room for untrained heroes. It's just bad and undercuts all the character development & growth over the past 3 years. Likewise, OQ can take a few stumbles in his character growth. But you can't make him stupid just for plot purposes one week and then the next week have everyone banking on his superskills & strategy.

 

Ultimately, I fear what will happen because the writers sometimes like to make broad character strokes for plot purposes, when their bread & butter is really in the finer character development. S1 & s2 worked so well because everything was building to bigger moments. S3 was too much like a newton's cradle desk accessory (aka an executive ball clicker) with the balls swinging from side to side but never really changing the momentum. Eventually they stop, but by the time it happens you've wasted how many minutes staring at balls going back & forth? Its just not a good story-telling device. I get every episode can't be amazing or the best one ever, but they should at least try to build towards something.

Edited September 13, 2015 by kismet

[Primal Slayer]

I HATED the way the writers did everything they could to knock down Laurel in Season 2. They just had her make mistake after mistake, make her see who Blood was but of course no one would believe her due to the circumstances. I didn't like them trying to retcon Sara into being so innocent in her cheating with Oliver.

The writers wanted to make Sara into a sympathetic charecter but they failed to realize that they didn't need to change what we already knew about Sara to make the audience like her since all they did was make Laurel look like the bad guy by having it look like Laurel just went after Oliver just because Sara liked him.

 

Season 2 spent time pushing Sara into a brief love interest role before they decided to go with Felicity. We have Sara at the beginning of s2 stating "You and Laurel, Always and Forever" which indicated that she knew there was real love between her sister and Oliver and that they always find a way back to one another. But then that is thrown out of the window, Sara forgets what she said and she is jumping back into bed with him as if Laurel/Oliver is a mere afterthought.

[apinknightmare]

Season 2 spent time pushing Sara into a brief love interest role before they decided to go with Felicity. We have Sara at the beginning of s2 stating "You and Laurel, Always and Forever" which indicated that she knew there was real love between her sister and Oliver and that they always find a way back to one another. 

 

I don't think Sara was acknowledging any love there. I'm 99% sure she was being sarcastic. 

[tarotx]

They didn't recon Sara. They just gave her point of view.

Though I do think they pushed Laurel in a bad direction to give her-her own Island which kind of backfired. Then they kind of tried to fix it and that too made others mad because they Killed Sara, made Oliver dumb&pseudo dead and had Felicity "dis" Sara to push Laurel into her Black Canary destiny.

[kismet]

I HATED the way the writers did everything they could to knock down Laurel in Season 2. They just had her make mistake after mistake, make her see who Blood was but of course no one would believe her due to the circumstances. I didn't like them trying to retcon Sara into being so innocent in her cheating with Oliver.

The writers wanted to make Sara into a sympathetic charecter but they failed to realize that they didn't need to change what we already knew about Sara to make the audience like her since all they did was make Laurel look like the bad guy by having it look like Laurel just went after Oliver just because Sara liked him.

 

Season 2 spent time pushing Sara into a brief love interest role before they decided to go with Felicity. We have Sara at the beginning of s2 stating "You and Laurel, Always and Forever" which indicated that she knew there was real love between her sister and Oliver and that they always find a way back to one another. But then that is thrown out of the window, Sara forgets what she said and she is jumping back into bed with him as if Laurel/Oliver is a mere afterthought.

I don't agree with you about SL stating any positive support to o/l relationship. I just didn't see that. I do think it was weird & unnecessary how they rewrote/recon/gave POV to lance sister back story aso who had more of a claim on OQ. It was just unnecessary & frankly did nothing for either character.

I do agree with you though that i didn't enjoy how they tore LL down in s2. But I do think she needed some type of island. I do think the addiction story was a good idea. Considering her father's history it is realistic that she might he her own problems with addiction. The plot was hit or miss depending on the episode, but I did enjoy that they brought it there.

What frustrates me is her recovery story in s2 was the perfect time to start or at least mention her martial arts training. It also would have been an organic sisterly bonding activity for SL to help her sister overcome some of her issues with hands on training. It would have been a million times better than that awkward verdant convo about OQ. It also would have made that jacket seem much less awkward & setup LL for s4 as honoring a fallen mentor & sister. It truly was a missed opportunity.

[AyChihuahua]

If she needed an island, I'll never understand why it wasn't Tommy's death. Dude died saving her after she chose someone else (although she decidedly did not cheat on him, she did choose Oliver).

I personally have no interest in addiction storylines. They bore the crap out of me. And in this case, she was choosing to booze it up and steal her daddy's pills. Oliver didn't choose to be shipwrecked on an island and tortured and forced to become an assassin, etc. The writing often makes me think they hate KC, but if they did I think she'd be off the show by now. I cannot figure it out.

[Primal Slayer]

Laurels island should've the moment she found out Oliver/Sara were "dead". It ripped her family apart, drove her father to drinking, etc.. The final turning point should've been Tommys death and maybe her abduction early on in S2 by that guy. All of that should have caused her to want to start fighting back outside of the courtroom.

 

It also annoys me at how amateurish they make Nyssa constantly look when she is up against someone. The girl has been training with the LoA since she was a child and yet Oliver bests her within a minute every time they fight.  

Edited September 14, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[apinknightmare]

No one needs an "island." No one needs to be beat all to hell to become a hero. All they need is a good enough reason to want to put on a ridiculous suit and try to help their fellow people. Laurel went through her "island," but it wasn't anything that would make her want to do that. When she finally suited up, her reasoning was some nonsensical combination of "it makes the pain go away," "I wanted to help this one abused woman," "I was always head for a mask" or whatever in the hell she said, and "Oliver is dead and the team is gone, and I'm going to do this in their absence." And the ridiculous thing about it was that they had every opportunity to give her a reason to do it when she was with CNRI. They should've had her get super emotionally involved with her clients, watch them get beat down by the system, and want to go outside of it to help them. Why they didn't, I'll never understand. That would've made it pretty easy to root for her.

 

Doesn't matter anyway, what's done is done. 

Edited September 14, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

The problem is that a superhero's motivation is an ongoing thing. So it's not totally done, not like some thing that don't really have future implications. I mean we're about to spend more time in a fourth season on Oliver's motivation to be a superhero.

Nearly all their writing decisions re LL are completely incomprehensible. Make Sara her friend. Make her a lifelong student of martial arts, or AT LEAST hardcore into martial arts after Oliver's death to deal with the rage. Make her happy Oliver is alive, although not interested in hanging out with him. Make her decide to become a superhero (and probably find out about Oliver being the Arrow) in S2. Make Sara not the Canary, or at least out of the picture much earlier in S2. Make her more of a friend/teammate to Oliver in S3. Have her invite everyone to the 3.1 press conference. It's like every time they have to make a writing decision about her character, ever since the pilot, the make the wrong decision. I will just never ever understand.

[Primal Slayer]

Of course no one needs an island but MG and co. seem to think everyone does.

[apinknightmare]

I know they do. I was expressing my opinion that I think they're wrong, and their characters suffer for it.

Edited September 14, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

I know they do. I was expressing my opinion that I think they're wrong, and their characters suffer for it.

I feel like Roy came the closest to that, that he just wanted to help people without some massive melodramatic backstory. One of the many reasons I love him.

[Primal Slayer]

I don't know why they constantly went back and forth of Laurels general martial art skills, by the time she suited up it was as if her brief scenes taking down henchmen never happened. Maybe she was over thinking but she knows how to throw a punch, she knows pretty basic techniques and how to handle guns. 

[Starfish35]

She didn't have martial arts skills. Up until she started training with Ted, she'd only had self-defense courses. I think that was really really stupid of them - if it were up to me, she'd have been taking martial arts classes since she was a child - but it's what they established within the show. And then they had to dig themselves out of that hole.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Starfish35

[Primal Slayer]

Regardless, her self defense lessons were very handy to her and that was all thrown out in season 3.

 

 

They didn't seem to apply any of it like they should have.

[EmeraldArcher]

I don't know why they constantly went back and forth of Laurels general martial art skills, by the time she suited up it was as if her brief scenes taking down henchmen never happened. Maybe she was over thinking but she knows how to throw a punch, she knows pretty basic techniques and how to handle guns.

I can't imagine how frustrating it must be being a LL fan. Everything that frustrates someone who is cheering for her and invested in her story are the exact same things that further alienate those of us who are not her fans. I think the difference between the two groups is that maybe her fans have hope that the writers are finally going to do right by her and anti-fans like me hope that the writers are finally going to do right by us.

[Primal Slayer]

You practically hit the nail on the head. 

Edited September 14, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[lexicon]

 The writing often makes me think they hate KC, but if they did I think she'd be off the show by now. I cannot figure it out.

 

The writing makes me think they hate KC but someone/something (the network/her contract? idk) is making it impossible to write her off the show because aside from the myriad problems I have with her portrayal of LL, the writing certainly does her no favours.

[Primal Slayer]

I love Laurel and I love Katie but even I would rather them set the bird free if they have no intention of writing the character properly. 

[AyChihuahua]

The writing makes me think they hate KC but someone/something (the network/her contract? idk) is making it impossible to write her off the show because aside from the myriad problems I have with her portrayal of LL, the writing certainly does her no favours.

Almost every contract has an out (I am a contracts attorney), if you're willing to pay. And it can't be an insane amount, because that's the equivalent to a default, and the law hates a default. Most likely her contract includes a liquidated damages clause, and it can't be an insane amount (for example, if she's paid $500k per year, liquidated damages would be some portion of that for however many years remain). There are very few kinds of contracts that a judge would require be performed (specific performance) and this would not be one of them. Even without a liquidated damages clause, at most they'd have to pay her her set salary for however many years she has left, which still would not be an insane amount. So if they really wanted her gone, she'd be gone.

I'm guessing they don't hate her (btw, I don't mean they hate her personally, but they don't care about her character), but maybe they're as apathetic as a large portion of the audience? But then you'd think they would have been writing her well in the beginning, when they still cared. I think it's possible that it's the network that wants to keep her? If she's written much better in S4 I might start thinking that they just pushed through their apathy, but so far they've not talked about a storyline for her other than Sara's resurrection.

Edited September 14, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[pootlus]

To be honest it makes me wonder if some of her verbal clumsiness in public is because she's trying to avoid making the showrunners look bad by articulating how poorly her character has been written.

Edited September 14, 2015 by pootlus

[Primal Slayer]

I think she tries to look at the positive side and put on a good face but probably was disappointed with how they wrote her. I can only imagine what she was thinking reading some of those scripts. 

[Sakura12]

I don't understand why KC would want to stick with this show, you'd think with all the vitriol she receives she'd want out and to find a show that would treat her better. This show obviously treats her like an afterthought. Most of her main storylines revolve around Sara or her crappy relationship with Oliver. Maybe after Sara leaves for LoT she'll get something to do outside of being part of Sara's journey. 

[kismet]

So I realized as I am really bitter that one of my book series is not going the way I wanted it to, so I decided to distract myself with Arrow. And that is when I realized that I am bitter that OQ didn't just infiltrate LoA on his own accord to save the city? Why couldn't the writers have written that Ras planned to destroy the city and OQ stepped up to save it. We could have been spared the almost death of TQ (although the acting was amazing in that ep). We could have been spared the rescue mission to save MM that revealed the stupid prophecy. Heck, we could have been spared the whole prophecy. The writers could still have given us Al-Sha-Him. Used the alpha/omega virus. And still have had Ras defeated in the end.

 

IDK why I randomly feel bitter about this today. But I'm bitter that the writers essentially forced OQ into becoming A-S-S, kidnapping Lyla, abandoning Lil Sara, fracturing his friends' trust in him, marrying Nyssa, the whole lot of crap that was done. All of season 3b was a forced & contrived plot to get to the end point of OQ realizing who he was & killing Ras. That could have been achieved by OQ realizing who he was (a hero) & sacrificing himself to surrender himself to the league. He could have gone undercover with the support of his family & friends to dismantle Ras plan as part of the LoA. Perhaps Ras could have been looking for new recruits, a general or something. All I know is that I am bitter the writers couldn't have found a better way to get from  A to Z in s3b. The level of stupid they forced OQ to endure was pathetic. They also made Ras a weakened villain. It was such a deflated way to really tell a story, when you play it back in your head.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I don't understand why KC would want to stick with this show, you'd think with all the vitriol she receives she'd want out and to find a show that would treat her better. This show obviously treats her like an afterthought. Most of her main storylines revolve around Sara or her crappy relationship with Oliver. Maybe after Sara leaves for LoT she'll get something to do outside of being part of Sara's journey.

Regular paying gig. Second billing on a hit show. Relatively consistent TV exposure. Plus, she seems really excited about playing a masked hero.

[AyChihuahua]

I've figured out that what I hated the most about S3 was what it did to these characters, most of whom I used to love. My love for Oliver, Felicity, Digg, Quentin, and Thea was reduced, from mildly (Digg completely taking Oliver's side in the divorce) to massively (Oliver, pretty much everything he did) to irreparably (Quentin). The only one who came out better was Roy. Laurel is the same, more or less, because I didn't care about her and found her scenes boring and annoying, and I now don't care about her and find her scenes boring and annoying. I just don't understand why they did this. It wasn't necessary to destroy these characters for their stupid identity theme, which, as an aside, makes Oliver seem like he is very seriously mentally ill.

I think they were maybe going for a BtVS S4 kind of vibe, and that season definitely did some damage to the primary relationships. But not like this. I mean, Buffy was pretty into her new bf to the detriment of her relationship with Willow. But she wasn't actively shitty to Willow, just kind of oblivious. Plus Willow and Xander did a lot of growing and changing outside of their relationships with the Scooby gang, and I don't remember either of them, or Giles, being shitty to anyone. I wouldn't have cared much if these characters had been caught up in this nonsensical plot if they'd basically remained themselves, but I think that if they had remained themselves, the nonsensical plot couldn't have happened, because so much of it was internal to the group, rather than imposed from the outside. It's SO FRUSTRATING and I so hate that this character, Oliver, who had been my third-favorite tv character ever, is now someone I very nearly hate. GRRRRRR!

[kismet]

So I realized while getting distracted by YouTube, that I have actually watched and continue to watch a lot of angsty shows. So I do not know why the angst of s3 bothered me so much... my threshold for angst is pretty high at this point. All I can say is maybe I just like well written angst, and season 3 was not well written in many departments, esp. the angst. Here's hoping they avoid that style or abundance of angst in the future, I just don't think it sits well with most of their characters & actors.

[tv echo]

I'm trying to resist feeling bitter about S3 complaints that unjustifiably focus on Olicity.  I just read a recent review that referred to "tweens".  Is liking a good romance any more or less mature than liking fantasy violence scenes and fights, where the 'good guys' callously beat down and sometimes kill the 'bad guys' while throwing off one-liners?

 

To be clear, I like both the personal relationships and the action stunt sequences on Arrow.  I think the show needs both.