Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[wonderwall]

You know, I actually wouldn't be annoyed by Laurel's actions if she wasn't packaged to be a good person with strong morals and values and whatever KC/EPs spout during their interviews. If she was meant to be someone with loose morals and a person who is essentially like Manhunter, then I wouldn't have minded her actions... At least Moira owned up to her misdeeds, she never claimed to be good, no one did, which is why people liked her character. The same can't be said about Laurel though. It's weird. Especially with the whole throwing false accusations at that guy as ADA, she seemed a lot like manhunter.

[calliope1975]

I'm just going to pretend she is Manhunter. She'll sure as hell never be my Black Canary - I respect BC's comic counterpart too much for that. So, Manhunter it is. 

 

I can't see any outcome of this show where continuing to lie to Lance is justifiable. He finds out and has a heart attack? That could have been avoided by telling him when he was in the hospital. He's perfectly fine with the lies? Nope. I call bullshit on that reaction. There's no way to spin this to make it okay. 

 

ETA: I would accept what TPTB are doing if I thought there would be any consequences for the lies, but there won't be. Killing Lance off only punishes me. I don't care about adding to Laurel's woe-is-me personality. I doubt they'll have Lance disown her. I doubt Sara's coming back (if only.) And I doubt he'll go all righteous fury on everyone.

 

The sole decision to kill off Sara may well have killed this show for me. Everything that's spun out of it has been unimaginative, insulting to me as a viewer, and have made my favorite characters OOC. TIIC had so many other options to get these characters in the same place. 

Edited January 31, 2015 by calliope1975

[kismet]

We traded this

 

 

For this

 

Im not trying to be critical of KC. But if she knew she was gonna become BC why didn't they have her in marital arts training for the last 2.5 seasons both on & off screen? She could throw a mean punch in S1, I could have easily understood her casually pursuing marital arts as a stress reliever from her job. At least if they had built up some backstory while forcing the actress to gain some skills we might be in a better scenario. I just don't understand the EPs masterplan, which makes me wonder if they even had 1 for Sara or was her death just some random idea thrown out during brainstorming and just stuck? I secretly was hoping there could be a time jump during this brick triology just make everything more believable. Imagine if it had been like 6 wks to a few months since Oliver's death... so much of what people are mad about would be negated to a degree. L's stunt double could kick ass without people questioning as much. Diggle staying to run comms as de facto leader would have made sense, rather than sending 2 newbies into the field while the ex special forces hangs out w/ the computers. R& F expanding on their flirtation. About the only thing that would have been out of place were the Oliver scenes, but you still could have spliced them in with captions. They barely made sense to the story being told in that episode anyway. They are important to O's story but they could be interested into any timeline. The lying to Quentin would have also taken a bigger blow, but maybe they would have seen the errors of their ways in it being too long/cruel to keep Quentin in the dark & manipulate him w/ modulater/dress-up; instead of being surprised by fan response. Heck, I would have taken an off-screen confession and Quentin being torn between wanting to save people & running the risk of losing L by supporting her in new BC role. Boom, one little time jump and so much is resolved without the writers really needing to do much. This big reveal of BC was 2.5 yrs in the making, you think they might have put a little more preparation into it.

Edited January 31, 2015 by kismet

[poetgirl925]

You know, I actually wouldn't be annoyed by Laurel's actions if she wasn't packaged to be a good person with strong morals and values and whatever KC/EPs spout during their interviews. If she was meant to be someone with loose morals and a person who is essentially like Manhunter, then I wouldn't have minded her actions... At least Moira owned up to her misdeeds, she never claimed to be good, no one did, which is why people liked her character. The same can't be said about Laurel though. It's weird. Especially with the whole throwing false accusations at that guy as ADA, she seemed a lot like manhunter.

Whether they want to admit it or not, I think they've combined elements of Manhunter with this version of Black Canary. Anyone who's read a comic with these characters can see it. Like you, I wouldn't mind it so much if they'd just admit Laurel's kind of shady and has some shady and rather selfish motivations for her actions. I could get behind that because not all characters have to be all good. Look at Oliver in season 1. Moira was a great example of this type of character. I actually really like morally ambiguous characters because they can be fun and they're unpredictable. On Agents of SHIELD I like Raina a lot, for example. I like Ward even though he's done terrible things. I like Red on The Blacklist. I find them all interesting from a psychological standpoint. The difference is no one is trying to present these characters as great, big-hearted, selfless heroes - not on screen and certainly not in interviews. No offense to the EPs or Katie Cassidy, but their interviews are kind of funny because they imply a complete disconnect with Laurel as she's been written. I think the problem is this show is fairly plot-driven. That's why we get the big leaps in narrative and character arcs that don't make sense. Laurel has clearly suffered the most from this narrative style - I suppose because they had her disconnected from the main narrative for so long. Unless they admit this character has gone down a morally grey path, and own it, I don't think Laurel will ever be anything but ridiculous.

[Guest]

I was thinking today about how amazing it would have been if Moira had still been alive and she reluctantly teamed up with Felicity to help get Thea out of Malcolm's clutches. Think of the story and character possibilities! Imagine the truce they would have made (I imagine Moira held Felicity somewhat responsible for telling Oliver the truth about Malcolm) and them awkwardly trying to work together and just being all badass Queens who rule everything. And then they would have come to a mutual respect because they'd discover they're both doing it for the same reasons - because they love Oliver. I cry.

 

Now I'm sad and bitter for what could have been. 

[wonderwall]

If Moira was alive, none of  this crap with Brick would be happening, because she'd beat the shit out of him with her power as the Mayor and logic. ALSO, I wouldn't be surprised if Moira knew Oliver was dead, thus, she'd set aside her differences with Felicity because she knows how Felicity feels for her son, and team up to beat Malcolm. And if Moira was alive, Thea wouldn't have gone with Malcolm which essentially set up the BS murder mystery... God. I miss Moira. May that BAMF rest in peace. 

[KirkB]

Moira would have gone to Ra's and convinced him to stay away from both her daughter and her son, not to mention her city, in the first place.

 

Honestly, I agree with the rest of you. If they had made Laurel a blackmailing, backstabbing anti-hero type person to begin with, instead of trying to convince us she is a good doing, crusading lawyer for the people, the stuff she is pulling now would be a lot easier to swallow. Lying to her father and manipulating him would still be disgusting but at least it would be in character.

Edited February 1, 2015 by KirkB

[statsgirl]

But the EPs have always thought that the back-stabbing, lying incompetence are positives in her character. Look at MG saying that when we saw the deleted scene from 1x23, we would be sympathetic to Laurel staying behind at CNRI when everyone was telling her to leave.  He was wrong, she looked like an incompetent idiot who couldn't think far enough ahead to have back-up copies, or enough sense to leave when she should so Tommy ended up dying unnecessarily.  MG probably thought it was noble that she blamed The Hood for it..

 

Remember when Moira, as soon as she heard Malcolm say "Nanda Parbat" found out where it was and what it was and who Ra's al Ghul was and she offered him the location of Malcolm to keep him off her back?  Truly an awesome, clever, gutsy woman, Starling City wouldn't be the same today if she were still alive.

Edited February 1, 2015 by statsgirl

[kismet]

I really miss Moira. She brought so much the show. I really would have loved to see her response to Oliver loving Felicity. I truly believe that she was shocked when Oliver chose Felicity over her. It really kinda shook her foundation. I think it would have been interesting to watch it play out. She always seemed like such a Mama Bear protecting her baby cubs. Her death was so noble, that its hard to fault the writers from wanting to go there. Buts its left such a void in the show. She really was a commanding actress.

 

I also really miss Sara. She had such a personable way about her character. She blended into the team format so well. Its a shame that they couldn't find a way to bring about Laurel's story without destroying her story. Her interactions with Felicity & Sin were so positive & showed that females do not have to compete with each other. Even her relationship with Oliver did not bother me as much until I realized the writers really had no idea what direction they wanted to take after the lunge. But thats not on her thats on the writers. I just feel that even if Laurel becomes a bona fide member of team arrow, it just wont be the same because of how Laurel general treats other people around her. With the exception of a few scenes throughout the series, Laurel is rarely ever shown as friendly and personable. Its always about her in some way. She might have a big heart according to interviews, but that is never showed on the screen. Its more like look at me, see what Im doing to help others. Sara was never like that, it was always about wanting to help others once she realized her mistakes on the boat. I feel like she even joined LoA as a way to help those and rid the world of evil. She very rarely seemed selfish. She might have had to suffer all the dark, but she was not a dark person. Laurel seems to be a dark person regardless of what she suffered or not. Now, I don't read the comics, so I don't know exactly what BC is supposed to be like beyond what I hear from others, but it doesn't feel like she is supposed to be as harsh & rigid as Laurel is. I know TPTB are fulfilling comic book destiny & contractual obligations. I just wish they could give some better material or direction that makes Laurel seem more accessible as a person. I really wish they had fleshed out her relationship w/ Sara better. i think it would have given her journey to BC more depth and less about her. She suffered a loss so now she is gonna seek revenge, thats what it feels like not that she wants to honor the living or the dead. Her mission seems hollow in comparison to Olivers, Diggles, Ray and Roys. I guess Im bitter that we'll never know that if Sara had not died, but rather just returned to LoA, if Laurel still could have fulfilled her comic destiny and picked up the mask and fought to bring justice to SC. Clearly, in S3 all hell breaks loose, so why not have another masked crusader running around while Sara is busy in Nanda Prabat. There could have been another way to get the duel on the mountain rather than sacrificing both Sara & Thea (to some degree).

 

I guess Im just bitter there is not better female writing on Arrow at the moment. Felicity who used to be given gold mines, is now getting thrown down the shaft. Laurel is getting better material, but yet somehow she still comes off as cold-hearted & unaccessible. Thea's been mind-raped. Every other female is dead. I dont really even count Lyla, because beyond the hospital scene. She's been a brief sentence mention at best. Well there was that one episode where she was shown as slightly incompetent & then shot. And the guest females, well they have been role cast. Ditzy cocktail waitress, deranged stalker. Is it so hard for them to write one balanced realistic female on this show. We've sacrificed strong female characters for a man in a robotic suit that seems to have some boundary issues, esp when it comes to females.

[poetgirl925]

I have to agree that it's the writers' and EPs' failure to notice what they're doing that concerns me the most. They seem to think that they're writing one thing while many people see something entirely different. Honestly, I'm not sure I believe them when they say they didn't consider certain things or audience reactions. Sometimes I wonder if they're just taking that stance in order to shrug it off. If they were writing some of these things on purpose and had a point to it, that would be different, but I don't think that's the case. I think they are just totally fine with taking massive shortcuts in their narrative storytelling, and it's becoming more and more of an issue with each passing season. This season, I'm not entirely sure I understand what's going on with some of the plots, especially in the flashbacks. Their characterization is way off from episode to episode, and that's been more of an issue since season 2 IMO.

 

As for Laurel, I somehow doubt they are ever going to show her as being more personable or friendly, and here's why - they've gotten it into their heads that stubborn and recalcitrant and headstrong = a strong female character. They are very, very wrong about this, but I don't see any other reason to write Laurel the way that they do. It's occurred to me that maybe they're trying to write her as Oliver's equal because she's the female lead, and that's why we see her arguing with everyone or trying to take the lead from members of Team Arrow who have been around longer than her and have more to offer in the field (Diggle.) That's why we see her abusing her position as ADA. They seem to think it makes her a badass when what it really does is show that she is extremely morally grey at this point. Can you imagine if we saw Quentin doing this stuff, especially right now when police brutality is such an issue in American news? I'm not sure how they think it's different, just because she's a lawyer rather than a cop, but it's essentially the same thing IMO. They want to show she has 'fire' inside her, but what I see is that she lacks strategic thinking skills half the time - she just does things and then seems surprised by the consequence. This is completely counter intuitive since she's a lawyer, a job that hinges on strategic thinking. And because they want that plot point - showing how 'strong' she is - logical narrative and on-target characterization fall to the wayside. And for the love of all things, they have to stop giving her such stupid lines. To have her beat the heck out of a guy and try to kill another in one episode and then follow that up with her walking into her dad's office asking something like "Why are your officers allergic to search warrants?" makes her look laughably, utterly ridiculous. I mean, WTH? How can they not see this?

 

I think characters like Moira and Felicity prove you don't have to be fighting for front and center space all the time in order to be strong, and you don't have to be constantly difficult and stubborn. Sara was sometimes written this way, but she certainly wasn't written that way as much as Laurel. The only difference is that Laurel is the female lead. So as much as I'd like to think this will change and they'll manage to (somehow) gracefully integrate her into Team Arrow, I have serious doubts. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by poetgirl925

[dtissagirl]

Last season there were two specific moments that made the internets explode: the lunge, and the [not so] fake I love you. Reading MG on social media shows that he gets off on it. What I feel is happening this season is they're plotting everything around trying to reach other internet explosions. "What's the most shocking thing we can do that'll get fans talking about it on the twitters a lot?" And what happens when you write for gotchas is you have to bend characterizations and story beats even more than when you're writing for plot, because the entire point of a GOTCHA! moment is to shock the audience. It really has nothing to do with developing characters.

[jay741982]

That's what scares me about a Felicity moment that's gonna break the internet in 314. Does MG get that Felicity screwing creepy eyes is Not gonna go over well if that's what it is. I hope to god its that Oliver saw Felicity before 103

[Password]

I think he's banking on Raylicity not going well. These things are damaging to characters and rage quitting will probably happen. When "the lunge" happened, not only was it a slap in the Lauriver fandom's face, but Oliver and Sara's characters took hits. People rage quit. The writing went down the toilet after the lunge too, so really these writers are idiots.

[dtissagirl]

From the spoiler thread, but not spoilery:

Finally, if you don't want violence for the sake of violence, then why have Laurel/BC beat up Brick's henchman with a staff and say "I'm the justice that you can't run from"? I assume she didn't kill him, but still she beats him up and then lets him go? She's not bringing him in for trial or collecting evidence to ensure a conviction. She's administering violent punishment and calling it justice.

This is a great point, that I think goes with what I was talking about. I still haven't watched 311, but -- Laurel beat up that dude for no reason other than beat him up, didn't she? I mean, did she recover any of the evidence Brick stole as a consequence of taking down the two minions?

We've been assuming Laurel suiting up was planned as a big surprise, that was spoiled by the camera guy, I think this was one of the times they were going for gotcha! and nothing else.

It doesn't help them that they've been writing Laurel dumber than usual this season. In 310, Dig goes "Oliver went off to fight the head of the LoA". Laurel starts with WHAT?, but Roy interrupts and say Malcolm showed up saying Oliver is dead, and Laurel goes on her Malcolm is a lying liar who lies rant. Which is totally right, go Laurel, but why isn't her VERY NEXT LINE "Why did Oliver go off to fight Nyssa's dad?" Because they can't tell Laurel about Thea killing Sara, and so she just accepts that Oliver went off to a deadly duel with no further explanation. It's the kind of writing that makes a *lawyer* into someone who doesn't question things because reasons.

Edited February 1, 2015 by dancingnancy

[jay741982]

I think he's banking on Raylicity not going well. These things are damaging to characters and rage quitting will probably happen. When "the lunge" happened, not only was it a slap in the Lauriver fandom's face, but Oliver and Sara's characters took hits. People rage quit. The writing went down the toilet after the lunge too, so really these writers are idiots.

He probably does but he should not want people to rage Quit. Felicity is apparently getting called stuff that is unwarranted. He should trying to please his fanbase not do something that could ruin his show's biggest ship

[quarks]

I have to agree that it's the writers' and EPs' failure to notice what they're doing that concerns me the most. They seem to think that they're writing one thing while many people see something entirely different. Honestly, I'm not sure I believe them when they say they didn't consider certain things or audience reactions.

 

 

So I'm going to go ahead and note that this sort of thing happens all the time.  From the short story level to feature film and epic book series.  Gary Larson has a great story about one of his Far Side cartoons where the sexual implications of one cartoon went unnoticed not only by him, but by multiple editors at several major magazines - many of whom had turned down some of his other cartoons with a "Uh, did you not notice this?"  They saw those - and not that this little cartoon had accidentally become a bestiality joke that offended numerous readers. Regardless of what I think about the writing on this show, I absolutely do believe that they didn't consider/anticipate certain audience reactions, or thought the audience would take something one way only to have the audience take it a totally different way, or anticipated some audience reaction, but underestimated it. 

[KirkB]

It's difficult to take into account every possible audience reaction. A scene is funny or romantic or clever, and that was all it was genuinely intended to be, but someone in the audience thought a certain line or action was rude/sexist/etc. That's not necessarily their fault. What IS their fault is if they lie to the audience or create a scene/plot/etc. knowing and intending to piss people off and it does so beyond their expectations. They know full well it's going to piss people off so they're not really in a position to be surprised when it does. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by KirkB

[quarks]

True, and in this particular case, from Guggenheim's wording, I'm pretty sure they did anticipate a negative reaction to the Laurel pretending to be Sara for her father. Just underestimated how bad it would be.  After all, Laurel did several other questionable things in that episode - telling a witness that she could charge him with anything, getting that alderman killed, and putting a helicopter at risk - but most of the criticism focused on the deception, not the alderman's death.  I can see that taking the EPs by surprise.  It took me by surprise too - when I watched the episode, I knew people on this board would get enraged with the Quentin stuff since people here have been complaining about it since "Sara," but I thought people would be more enraged by the death of the alderman.

[Carrie Ann]

The lying to Quentin thing doesn't fall into that oopsie category for me either. I can see if they underestimated how little sympathy people would have for Laurel in that scenario--they seem incapable of understanding how widely disliked she is--but almost every review or recap from 3A that touched on the lie (not even counting social media chatter) mentioned how horrible it was and begged the show to just tell him already. So acting like it's a real surprise that people are incensed when you take that lie to its cruelest, grossest end? That's either lying to get away with your plot-guided character missteps, or it's willful blindness.

[apinknightmare]

I don't think it was an oopsie or that MG is trying to write it off as one. He never made excuses for what she did-he didn't try to sell it as her being desperate or anything. They intended for it to be horrible, they knew the audience would think it was horrible. They just underestimated the level of anger over it.

[dtissagirl]

Getting the alderman killed vs. impersonating Sara to fool Quentin is an interesting "which is worse" dilemma in theory, but I think is nobody in the audience is gonna care that a rando city official died. Not even the part about how that affects Laurel, if it doesn't have lasting consequences to her other than feeling super bad about it.

Plenty of people are still mad at Laurel because Tommy died saving her, and that's because people cared about Tommy. We've known Quentin from the start, so whatever Laurel does to him affects the audience way more than whatever Laurel does to someone we've just met.

[tv echo]

Getting an alderman killed was not intentional by Laurel.  On the contrary, she was well-intentioned but incompetent.

 

Impersonating Sara was intentional by her, and also manipulative.

Edited February 1, 2015 by tv echo

[doesntworkonwood]

Getting the alderman killed vs. impersonating Sara to fool Quentin is an interesting "which is worse" dilemma in theory, but I think is nobody in the audience is gonna care that a rando city official died. Not even the part about how that affects Laurel, if it doesn't have lasting consequences to her other than feeling super bad about it.

 

I think that's because getting the alderman killed showed Laurel's incompetency, whereas lying to Quentin shows Laurel's kind of an awful person. And the alderman's death was a more passive action, whilst she didn't set out to kill him, she was still responsible. However, lying to Quentin is an active action, she dressed up as Sara just to fool him. 

[poetgirl925]

On another topic, you know things are bad when Hart of Dixie, a show meant to be all kinds of silly, makes more sense than Arrow. I watch it for laughs, but the last episode featured the town sheriff cross examining witnesses in the town bar, and it was more logical than any law proceeding on Arrow has ever been lol.

I know that everyone interprets things in a different way (the Christmas playdoh scandal is proof of that) but I don't think they can be as oblivious as they pretend to be at times. I agree with those saying they underestimate the foolhardiness of some of their narrative decisions and the reaction it will garner. And @dancingnancy made a good point in that they probably go for 'gotcha' and take it too far. I don't usually rage quit shows, but there have been times I've needed a break from this one. It usually happens around this point in the season too - or it did last year. I had the season pass on iTunes and I still didn't get around to catching up until June. I quit for a while in season one as well. The thing is I only have time to watch maybe an hour or so of TV a day, so if I'm annoyed I don't watch. *shrugs* I guess we'll see how bad the next couple of episodes get.

[Carrie Ann]

I don't think it was an oopsie or that MG is trying to write it off as one. He never made excuses for what she did-he didn't try to sell it as her being desperate or anything. They intended for it to be horrible, they knew the audience would think it was horrible. They just underestimated the level of anger over it.

 

I guess I disagree because I read that "you're going to love it" response about the voice distortion as being about the Sara voice. We'll probably never know for sure because after all of this, I don't expect him to try to defend it, or to own up to really believing people--even Laurel fans--would love that little twist. But if you believe that's what he thought, that's what he meant, then it makes you see the lie and the Sara ruse a little differently. I see him thinking it's a no-win situation: that Lance will be hurt and upset, but that Laurel had really good reasons for doing what she did. 

 

We'll see how it plays out. It would be great if Laurel's consequences for this action fit the crime, but I have no expectation of that.

I saw MG's comment that there will absolutely be repercussions, but that came after he was inundated with comments about how awful this was, and I seriously doubt anything tangible or meaningful will happen to Laurel, let alone the rest of the team. PB said that Quentin won't be happy about Laurel's BC stuff, but that he realizes that fighting her and telling her she can't do something will not work, so he just has to sort of grit his teeth and bear it. Doesn't sound like anything lasting going on there.

[poetgirl925]

I've been out of the loop, I guess. I just can't see any positives for deliberately writing Laurel in a way that people will hate at the same time they're shoving her into the BC role. Why on earth would they want people to hate her more?

[wonderwall]

I've been out of the loop, I guess. I just can't see any positives for deliberately writing Laurel in a way that people will hate at the same time they're shoving her into the BC role. Why on earth would they want people to hate her more?

But that's the thing, more people have been liking her which, imo, is baffling in itself. 

[Morrigan2575]

In retrospect, I have no doubt that Laurel using Sara's voice was what MG meant when he claimed fans would love it. There would be no other reason for that comment, a modulator has been used by Arrow and Canary already so it's not some cool new effect and from what I understand her normal modulator wasn't anything special.

[apinknightmare]

I'm not sure the "you're gonna love it" was about Sara's voice. He was asked if Laurel would use a modulator as BC, and she is. Rather than just say "yes," why not take the chance to inject an oversell in there to get people excited?

Not trying to bury my head in the sand-he very well could've been talking about her using Sara's voice. But with the way everything about this BC arc has been oversold, it wouldn't surprise me if he was just talking about the modulator.

Edited February 1, 2015 by apinknightmare

[poetgirl925]

But that's the thing, more people have been liking her which, imo, is baffling in itself.

Seriously? Well that's disheartening. And if that's the case, they'll probably continue the same way. I can ignore Laurel, more or less, even though I don't usually watch shows where I actively dislike characters this much. I guess my continued viewing will be determined by my enjoyment of other aspects of the show - at this point that's mostly Oliver, Diggle and Felicity. Hopefully they don't keep ruining that dynamic

[looptab]

The thing is, they don't know how to create conflict except from lies. I remember an interview from before The Climb, where MG said Laurel would be having an  "Oh!I'm screwed!" moment when her mom came to town, all giddy, as if it was funny. So they didn't consider the awfulness of the lying (and now impersonating) IMO, but just that Laurel would be torn from this lie, which she allegedly started telling out of concern for her father well-being, but then morphed into concern over herself. Which, wouldn't be so despicable, being afraid to lose someone else after a loss that significant, but the issue here is that they've dragged it for too long.

 

Some conflicts, even more engaging or more important ones,are dealt with in the span of an episode or completely glossed over; she's been lying to Quentin for 10 episodes. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by looptab

[poetgirl925]

He actually said Laurel would have an "Oh I'm screwed" moment when Dinah came to town? See, that's his problem right there - they keep making things too much about Laurel when other people are equally, if not more, affected by what's going on. That's what makes her look so damn narcissistic. If that's what they were going for then fine, but it doesn't seem that that's what they wanted people to take away from this. It seems to me like they need to put greater thought into her character.

[Morrigan2575]

But that's the thing, more people have been liking her which, imo, is baffling in itself.

Funny since I'm seeing links to Laurel fans on tumblr hating this BC story because it's destroying the Laurel character that they loved. So, they're losing fans on one side even while possibly gaining fans in the middle.

[apinknightmare]

I actually liked her in 3x10, up until she buckled up and started busting out with idiotic one-liners. Then she was back to typical Laurel in 3x11.

[AyChihuahua]

 

It took me by surprise too - when I watched the episode, I knew people on this board would get enraged with the Quentin stuff since people here have been complaining about it since "Sara," but I thought people would be more enraged by the death of the alderman.

For me, it's because I already hate, loathe, and detest Laurel.  It's totally her fault that guy's dead, bc she insisted on going when she has zero skills.  As one reviewer said, she has the stubborn stupidity of a three-year-old child.  BUT, the Quentin-fooling got Laurel's manure on Felicity and to a lesser extent Diggle.  I no longer particularly like or trust Felicity because she lied to Quentin's face and then built the tech that allowed Laurel to do what she did.  So that's why I'm angrier about that.

 

ETA: Felicity lied without necessity.  All she had to do was call him as herself.  I would be fine with her lying to Quentin for vital info she couldn't get another way.

Edited February 1, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[looptab]

He actually said Laurel would have an "Oh I'm screwed" moment when Dinah came to town? 

He did. If I can find it, I'll post it.

 

Funny since I'm seeing links to Laurel fans on tumblr hating this BC story because it's destroying the Laurel character that they loved. So, they're losing fans on one side even while possibly gaining fans in the middle.

How is she being destroyed? I see the same insufferable Laurel lol. I wonder what is it they loved that is no more there.

[poetgirl925]

Well, I don't blame Felicity or Diggle. As far as I can tell, this is par for the course whenever they try to make Laurel happen. Her stupid is contagious.

[Morrigan2575]

He did. If I can find it, I'll post it.

How is she being destroyed? I see the same insufferable Laurel lol. I wonder what is it they loved that is no more there.

Ironically all the same things people here complained about. Setting/beating up the black convict, using Sara's voice to fool lance, going out for revenge not justice, etc. The Laurel they loved had a big heart and was an honorable/moral person and she's being destroyed for the Black Canary persona.

I've seen a few say they only support the BC story because Katie loves it but they hate how the show is twisting the Laurel they love.

[Chaser]

I'm interested in seeing how far Oliver's IQ drops around Laurel. 

Maybe Laurel is the kinda third party between Oliver and Felicity. Not because she actually is, but because Oliver was caught in her gravitational pull

[Password]

I'm interested in seeing how far Oliver's IQ drops around Laurel. 

Maybe Laurel is the kinda third party between Oliver and Felicity. Not because she actually is, but because Oliver was caught in her gravitational pull

Bite. Your. Tongue.

[looptab]

Ironically all the same things people here complained about. Setting/beating up the black convict, using Sara's voice to fool lance, going out for revenge not justice, etc. The Laurel they loved had a big heart and was an honorable/moral person and she's being destroyed for the Black Canary persona.

I've seen a few say they only support the BC story because Katie loves it but they hate how the show is twisting the Laurel they love.

LOL. I've never seen that Laurel. But it is how she is described in interviews, so I can understand the confusion. Wow, they're messing up big time.

[Chaser]

For every fan that comes around to Laurel, another one gives up on her...

 

Bite. Your. Tongue.

For the record, I'm not talking romantically (I would never put that into the universe). I mean in the 'suddenly I'm going to partner with this big bad or I'm going to give up Oliver Queen or I'm going to listen Roy/Laurel over Diggle/Felicity.'

 

Years from now, people are going to point to 3x11 as when the show officially went from fun, reasonably smart TV to stupid.

[poetgirl925]

I think many of the Laurel fans have long thought she held a moral high ground in comparison to other characters. But yeah, it's pretty bad when even her fans are pissed off by this stupid plot point.

[Password]

Moral high ground? In what way?

[Chiny11]

Moral high ground? In what way?

I would also like to know the answer to this question.

[poetgirl925]

Moral high ground? In what way?

She was the victim of Oliver and Sara's lies, she always wanted to help people and they were killers, she's going to be a better BC because she's not a killer (that one must really sting now) etc, etc. *shrugs* I didn't say they were right, but I've seen a lot of these arguments posed by her most loyal defenders.

I forgot that everyone abandoned Quentin except for her. She suffered, suffered, suffered. I tried to logically refute some of this with one of her super fans once, but my attempts at reasonable discussion ended with her kinda flipping out, so I never understood her rationale and had no desire to ever engage with her again.

Edited February 1, 2015 by poetgirl925

[Password]

It's funny because there were foundation blocks to make us very sympathetic with her. But I realised early on that Arrow would be a show I wouldn't particularly care for the otp. I thought it was because I couldn't connect with KC, but the writing for Laurel is beyond poor.

Just nothing is good right now.

[chaos is welcome]

Many Laurel fans seem to think shes good! and loving! and caring!  because, because COMICS! Black Canary of the comics was all these things so Laurel must be too.  I don't get how Black Canary fans can route for THIS Laurel, because she has nothing in common w BC but the name.  She isn't a trained martial artist (but sara was).  But also, she actually was semi good (Although horrendously judgemental) in S1.  She at least took on cases no one else did. The closest we got to that in S2 was in BOP when she wouldn't leave people behind.  I'll never understand how we ended up with what we are getting now, because I think my 3rd grader could have written a better origin story (that third grader is as bitter as I am about this origin story, BTW.)

 

I am bitter that

Sin and Lance are finally gonna get a scene together FOR THE FIRST TIME and we're probably gonna have to fan wank Sara telling Lance about Sin, how much Sara knows about Sin, etc. etc. etc.

.  It would be so nice to have seen more interaction for character development of Sara with her family, esp wrt her sharing info about Sin. Forever bitter about the endless plot points that were lost when they dumped her into the dumpster.

[poetgirl925]

I didn't have a problem with Laurel in the pilot. I hated the OTP part, mind you, but I didn't hate her. I kind of rolled my eyes when she went to Oliver and offered to talk at the end. I just didn't think it made sense for her to get over her anger so fast and that was clearly just a silly, manufactured moment. It was the second episode where she started annoying me - calling Oliver out in front of her co-worker and client and arguing with Quentin like a teenager made her seem immature and bratty. I think that was the episode where I started thinking she was miscast, too. But yeah, I used to find her scenes with Quentin unbearable. Then they went from anger to ice cream moments and I was ready to stop watching. Diggle and Moira, and later Felicity, kept me hanging on in season 1.

[KirkB]

If Laurel Lance had been the primary reason I watched this show, I would have given up before the first season. I'm not a Black Canary fan. I don't hate the character or anything, I just don't know her that well and never really thought about "When are they going to bring in the Canary?" I tuned in to see Oliver Queen running across roofttops shooting people with arrows. That I came to like Diggle and Felicity surprised me, Moira was probably the second best thing about the show, and back then I was excited to see Barrowman. Laurel had almost no impact as far as I was concerned. I tended to forget about scenes she was in as soon as they were over, which is probably why nothing really important happened with her. But to keep it on topic, I am bitter Laurel has become enough of a nuisance I actively dislike her and it is having a seriously negative effect on my enjoyment of the show as a whole.