Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[statsgirl]

It's possible that Laurel hadn't forgiven Oliver and wasn't really interested in being a supportive shoulder for Oliver in the pilot episode, she just graciously did what she thought she should be doing as Queen Laurel. When Oliver rejected her offer, she was angry at the rejection and went with her real feelings of anger and bitterness.

 

If only they had let Laurel have a side of her that's a real bitch, the character would have held together a lot better (hence my bitterness since they're always telling us how wonderful she is). 

[Morrigan2575]

Batman Begins is on TV right now; I know we always joked in season one that Arrow was Batman light but holy crap did they rip off this movie.

Laurel is Rachel Dawes only worse. I swear I can see Felicity in Fox (although that was probably unintentional), Diggle is Alfred (but the producers made no bones about that) and Quentin is Gordon (again EPs admit that).

Hell even the plan is similar to the point that I have to wonder if the Malcolm/Ra's connection was intended to draw a link mental link in the viewers momd between the Undertaking and Ra's clensing.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[FAU]

Batman Begins is on TV right now; I know we always joked in season one that Arrow was Batman light but holy crap did they rip off this movie.

Laurel is Rachel Dawes only worse. I swear I can see Felicity in Fox (although that was probably unintentional), Diggle is Alfred (but the producers made no bones about that) and Quentin is Gordon (again EPs admit that).

Hell even the plan is similar to the point that I have to wonder if the Malcolm/Ra's connection was intended to draw a link mental link in the viewers momd between the Undertaking and Ra's clensing.

 

Yeah, it's something I picked up back in Season 1, I saw a lot of the Dark Knight trilogy elements in the series.

[wingster55]

Considering the producers said they wanted to make this show Nolan-esque..not surprising. 

[KirkB]

Though as good as he is I'm not sure Oliver could hang with Bruce. Might be fun to see a billionaire beatdown though.

[Morrigan2575]

I know the EPs have said TDK was their inspiration in the past and, even commented on it again after the Ra's reveal. I guess it's just been so long since I watched Batman Begins that I didn't realize how much of the movie they lifted for the show.

There was a scene between Bruce/Rachel in the movie, Bruce says something like "you can't save the world on you own" and I was just waiting for Rachel to utter Laurel's line from the pilot script "if I don't then who will? Or something to that effect.

It was a very surreal experience...LOL

Edited August 9, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[dtissagirl]

I had completely forgotten the fact that they based Laurel off Batman Begins [i'm not a Nolan fan, so I've only seen it a couple of times forever ago]. Of all the ladies from ALL the versions of Batman ever, you choose Rachel Dawes to rip off. A character that was recast in the second movie because the first one didn't work, and then fridged in the second movie to advance the manpain of not one, but two rich white dudes.

 

I mean, they had to make a conscious choice to skip everything that made Dinah Lance so awesome in the comics and instead decide to go off a character created by a dude who sucks a lot at portraying women in his movies. Geez. They kneecapped Laurel at inception [#PUN!], really.

[wonderwall]

I have a question for you guys. 

 

Do you guys think that Tommy died in order to prop Laurel up (regardless of how spectacular of a fail that propping was)? Or do you think it's more to do with the progression of Oliver's story?

 

I just feel like there's a lot of missed opportunities with Tommy dead. Think about it. If Laurel was the one who died (thus spurring Oliver's hero journey) Tommy could've helped with Team Arrow a bit in order to take down his own father... He could've had a great relationship with Digg and Felicity. Season 2 could've been focused on the Merlyn family drama rather than the Lance family drama (which IMO would've been a lot more entertaining)

 

Damn I wish they killed Laurel instead :/ 

[DrSpaceman10]

Do you guys think that Tommy died in order to prop Laurel up (regardless of how spectacular of a fail that propping was)? Or do you think it's more to do with the progression of Oliver's story?

 

I think they killed Tommy because killing Laurel would have been too trope-ish (ie: fridging women) and the writers wanted it to be unpredictable. I've noticed that the writers like to be unpredictable with their storytelling even if it doesn't always make the most sense.

Edited August 11, 2014 by drspaceman10

[statsgirl]

I was wishing this weekend that Laurel had died instead of Tommy.  Just think what they could have done, especially in terms of being a big brother to Thea that she could be closer to, and a friendship with Felicity.

 

I think another reason to kill off Tommy is that it would make more of an effect on Oliver.  He'd spent most of the season either fighting with or yearning for Laurel but they hadn't really connected on an emotional lever whereas he'd really connected with Tommy before their big fight, which was really Oliver's fault.  So if there was going to be an effect on Oliver big enough to cause him to first give up the game entirely and later to strive to be a hero, it would more likely come from Tommy dying than Laurel.

 

Third reason -- they wanted to go far away from the Spiderman route.

Edited August 11, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

@DrSpaceman10, I don't think it would've been predictable at all considering the knowledge that Laurel's supposed to be BC. IDK I never figured Laurel to be the one to die because of the whole "she is Oliver's true love" spiel they've been telling (not showing) us the entire season 1. So yeah, it would've been surprising. But hey, it also would've cut the dead weight (no offense, but laurel did nothing for the show in season 2)

 

I just miss Tommy :/

[DrSpaceman10]

I think they would have had more places to go if they had killed Laurel, or even if Tommy's death had motivated Laurel to become BC (not that I would have wanted it, but it would have made some sense). Instead they brought in Sara as BC and I don't know why they did that. I just don't really feel like sitting through another character's BC story.

[TanyaKay]

I think even writers realize what a great missed opportunity Tommy's death was, hence they keep bringing him back, first as a hallucination in season2 and then as a flashback in season3.

[KirkB]

I do think killing Tommy was to prop Laurel up but that wasn't the only reason. It was also to spur Oliver's shift away from killing, at least indiscriminately. Though they obviously could have had the same thing happen with Laurel's death. And that would have spared us the I know you in my bones nonsense. BUT, there is also the matter of Malcolm. Tommy dying gives Malcolm one more reason to stick around Starling and come after Oliver, since he probably has the same opinion as Laurel did, that the Arrow 'let' Tommy die. Sick puppy that he is I do think he loved his son.

Edited August 12, 2014 by KirkB

[strikera0]

I think one of the reasons Tommy was written out of the show was the failure of the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy love triangle. They probably intended for it to be a series long plot thread but when it didn't catch on with viewers, they had to course-correct. They weren't going to write out their female lead and they had lucked into an amazing Dark Archer in Malcolm Merlyn, so they probably decided to sacrifice Tommy to further Oliver's journey and close the door on Oliver/Laurel. If I remember correctly, there was even an interview with the produers towards the end of season 1 where they mentioned that they had to let the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy thing play itself out first before they can play out Olicity.

[TanyaKay]

I think one of the reasons Tommy was written out of the show was the failure of the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy love triangle. They probably intended for it to be a series long plot thread but when it didn't catch on with viewers, they had to course-correct. They weren't going to write out their female lead and they had lucked into an amazing Dark Archer in Malcolm Merlyn, so they probably decided to sacrifice Tommy to further Oliver's journey and close the door on Oliver/Laurel. If I remember correctly, there was even an interview with the produers towards the end of season 1 where they mentioned that they had to let the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy thing play itself out first before they can play out Olicity.

 

Honestly, I would've preferred if Malcolm had died and Tommy had turned dark and turned up a couple of seasons later to avenge the death of his father. John Barrowman is amazing but I was more attached to Tommy Merlyn as a character than Malcolm. I think Tommy had a lot more going on than that triangle. I mean Oliver dated two women during that time, it hardly ever felt like triangle barring last few episodes of first season.

Laurel Lance is no longer the leading lady, I hope they are willing to get rid of her now. She is like the only character on the show who has no purpose and has to be deliberately woven in the storyline to stay relevant.

[statsgirl]

I think one of the reasons Tommy was written out of the show was the failure of the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy love triangle. They probably intended for it to be a series long plot thread but when it didn't catch on with viewers, they had to course-correct. They weren't going to write out their female lead and they had lucked into an amazing Dark Archer in Malcolm Merlyn, so they probably decided to sacrifice Tommy to further Oliver's journey and close the door on Oliver/Laurel. 

I was a total Tommy/Laurel shipper.  I wonder if they hadn't anticipated that response.

 

I liked Tommy and would gladly have sacrificed Laurel for him to stay but to have Tommy turn into the Dark Archer was too much like the Spiderman movie.

Is there anyone else they could have killed off to push Oliver to his not-killing position?  Moira maybe?  as much as I regret losing Susanna Thompson this season.  Thea would also have done but I think there's too much storyline potential in her character.

 

 

If I remember correctly, there was even an interview with the produers towards the end of season 1 where they mentioned that they had to let the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy thing play itself out first before they can play out Olicity.

 

 

I remember thinking that was weird that they specifically mentioned Olicity because I thought they could easily have done something with Oliver and Felicity, then put the breaks on it.    Maybe they were thinking of Olicity as endgame then and wanted to wrap Lauriver up completely?  But then, why tease Oliver/Laurel again next season?  And why not tell KC they were over?

[Starfish35]

Honestly, I would've preferred if Malcolm had died and Tommy had turned dark and turned up a couple of seasons later to avenge the death of his father.

I wouldn't have. I am quite thoroughly over the Best Friend becomes Greatest Enemy trope. I was dreading seeing it play out with Oliver and Tommy and I was quite pleasantly surprised that they managed to defy everyone's expectations on that. (It was one of the reasons I got my hopes up that they might do the same with Laurel but alas, no such luck.) I'm also very much over seeing characters I like go evil, and I did like Tommy a lot. I preferred him to die a hero than to live and become a villain, even more in retrospect seeing how badly they slaughtered Slade's arc. If there was a possible future where Tommy lived and wasn't evil, I'd be all for that, but I don't think that possibility was ever on the table, except in fanfic.

[wingster55]

That saddens me...there was untapped potential with Tommy (which makes his death the more tragic)..plus his death would have greater emotional damage for the major players..Oliver, Laurel, even Thea. 

[Guest]

I really loved Tommy too and I agree he had so much potential. I also really liked Laurel and Tommy together - I thought they had pretty good chemistry and Laurel (and KC) kind of came alive around him, which was a nice contrast to how she was with Oliver. That's why I HATED the love triangle, especially because they were just so horrible to Tommy in the process and for what? It was never going to last with Oliver continually lying to her anyway. Ugh.

[TanyaKay]

The first pairing that I loved on this show was Thea and Tommy. I was quite pissed when they made them half siblings, even after his death. In my head, Tommy/Thea were perfect together.

[BkWurm1]

Had Tommy lived I imagine him dating Oliver's little sister could have been on the table. At this point I so thoroughly accept that Malcolm is her father, I can't stand going there. Maybe someone could right a fic where Tommy's mom wasn't murdered by a random thug, but Malcolm had her killed after learning Tommy wasn't his son!

[wingster55]

I don't know about Tommy/Thea. The pilot comment on her being hot aside, in my head I view Tommy playing the role of big brother to Thea during the five years. 

[TanyaKay]

Thea had a huge crush on him and even tried to kiss him. I think it could've gone somewhere had they not killed him and then made him her brother. I loved whatever few scenes that Colin and Willa had together but then Colin was one of those actors who shine with whosoever they are acting with.

[Morrigan2575]

Sorry, I never meant to imply that Oliver had killed Sara, just that she was among the list of people he thought were dead but then turned up alive. Yes, like soap operas, most characters in comics refuse to stay dead when killed. (I suspect this new Death of Wolverine story line will last maybe 6 months.)

I HATE that fan argument, oh it's a comic book show people should be allowed to return from the dead...look at the source.

Two different mediums, two different ways of telling a story and the reasons Comics (and Soaps) do it aren't valid for a primetime action/drama.

Comics are eternal, the characters don't age or change but times do; comics run forever and can take several months to cover events within a single day. Comics don't have steady writers (especially lately) new creative teams are brought in to shake things up every 2-3 years. None of these apply to Arrow.

It's such a pet peeve of mine because it's (IMO) making up excuses to cover lazy/bad writing/planning. In 2 complete seasons, 2 years in total the show killed/resurrected Deadshot, Merlyn, Slade and Sara (twice)...that's 5 fake deaths, shit I've been reading Uncanny X-Men, for 2 years, not one resurrection, not even Jean Grey (dead since 2003/2004...woohoo!) which I fully expected after The Battle of the Atom crossover event last year. The only resurrection in X-Men comics (that I know of) in the past 2 years is Nightcrawler and that was 5 years post comic-book death.  And while I'm sure there are more resurrections in Marvel Universe (Spider-Man comes to mind) you can't compare the entirety of the Marvel Universe to one show which is the equivalent of a Solo Book.  In the current GA title, there's been 1 resurrection in the 2 years that I've been reading and that was a character that was already dead prior to the start of the title (back in 2011) and in-comic time was "dead" for 7 years before his amazing return.  

The problem with the show doing this is that one death loses all emotional impact...should I care? That's the big problem with Supernatural....they killed a character off last season and it didn't phase me in the least even though I liked the character because I figured eh they'll bring him/her back to life soon enough. Same with TVD oh the other side collapsed dead is dead but Damon/Bonnie were trapped on the otherside when it collapsed oh yeah they're dead dead...not!

It's cheap and IMO very bad storytelling, if you're going to kill a character off you need to be willing to live with the results of that death no taking it back. If they're not willing to live with the consequences of the death...then don't kill them off...if you do all it means is that you (the writers) want the attention from a shocking death bit that's it.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Morrigan2575]

From Relationship Thread....speaking lines.

 

This game is kind of fun, it tells you who had the most speaking lines. I put the first 5 answers in order behind the spoiler bar. It's interesting when you look at the line counts per character.

 

Oliver, Felicity, Sara, John, & Laurel

 

 

http://www.sporcle.com/games/zrex/most-lines-in-arrow-season-2

[wonderwall]

Wowww, those one liners really accumulated :p 

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

From Relationship Thread....speaking lines.

This game is kind of fun, it tells you who had the most speaking lines. I put the first 5 answers in order behind the spoiler bar. It's interesting when you look at the line counts per character.

Oliver, Felicity, Sara, John, & Laurel

http://www.sporcle.com/games/zrex/most-lines-in-arrow-season-2

The top five aren't surprising. The tightness of 2-5 isn't either.

[BkWurm1]

I was amazed that Oliver had almost double the amount of lines of anyone though I guess with the flashbacks I shouldn't. Poor SA.  He must be exhausted. 

[statsgirl]

That was fun.  I totally froze on

Sin, Barry Allen and Lyla, which was stupid since I got everyone else in the Suicide Squad

. 

 

Poor Stephen Amell, no wonder he wants a break from working so much.  Not surprised that

Sara had more lines than Diggle, but I was surprised that Laurel had almost as many as he did in spite of being in three fewer episodes. and Quentin had more than Thea although he was in five episodes less.

 

And since this is the bitterness thread, I still think Laurel's addiction arc was a complete waste of time that could have been better spent on other characters.

Edited September 15, 2014 by statsgirl

[TanyaKay]

and they could have reduced some more of Laurel's lines where she goes for awkward hugs and say things like "you are important to me" in the same episode where she tried to hand over his name to the DA in exchange of release for her dad. And let's just not even go to the lines such as "I know you like I know my name" and "I know it in my bones" or was that some other part of the body? They make me (and several other viewers) want to hurl something on their TV sets.

 

While we are trying to cut lines, can we have cut off that mega stupid Felicity line in episode 2x15 where she says "Please save Oliver." I cringed a little when I typed it ... argh!

[BkWurm1]

While we are trying to cut lines, can we have cut off that mega stupid Felicity line in episode 2x15 where she says "Please save Oliver." I cringed a little when I typed it ... argh!

 

Agreed.  A worried look would have been 100x better in that situation. 

Edited September 16, 2014 by BkWurm1

[writersblock51]

from the Spoilers thread:

 

tying up the cool bad ass comic Dinah with this wimpy/weepy clumpy mascara wearing Laurel is stretching it to incredulity, the viewers have rejected it in the past and will do it again. Yikes!

 

This is the 3rd season-long attempt to tie the 2 characters together and I'm still not buying it.  Mind you, i've only seen Laurel in 2 scenes of all that's been released so far, so I suppose it's feasible that the 3rd time is the charm.  But I doubt it.

 

This is the same show that pitched her drug/alcoholic story as a game changer, so to speak - her island, her crucible, blah blah blah. And the phrase "Emmy worthy" was even thrown in.  It was overhyped and miscalculated - so when the stories fell flat and sparked so much criticism and backlash, the EPs (or, perhaps, just AK) were taken aback. 

 

So I expect nothing else for season 3. 

 

Laurel remains the absolute worst part of the show for me (AND WORK), and anything that gets her on screen more simply means less of the show I'm giong to wafch.  As of today, we're planning on watching the premiere Live.  I will not hesitate to put it on DVR-ONLY at any point.

 

ETA: because a typo must always be fixed but an addendum can make the mistake even better

Edited September 16, 2014 by writersblock51

[BkWurm1]

Laurel remains the absolute work part of the show for me,

 

Typo or not, you spoke the truth. Watching Laurel IS work. 

[Guest]

WAIT. Laurel's drug/alcohol storyline was promoted as her own crucible?! Whaaaaat? I had no idea omg! That's…that doesn't even make any sense.

[BkWurm1]

I had no idea omg!

 

Ignorance = Bliss

[Chaser]

Laurel is the hardest pill to swallow and now that we are in S3 its going to be the size of a horse pill. In order for me to accept this new improved Laurel: I need to forget the last two seasons. 

 

You know an OOC moment ever now and then, I blame the writers but still love the character. But Laurel? That's just a bad character.

[Guest]

Ignorance = Bliss

 

I'm in shock lol. I wasn't involved in fandom things and finding out spoilers and stuff until after s2 so I obviously missed a lot of things but this…this is something else. I don't even know how to process it. If Laurel had suffered through the addiction throughout the whole of s2 I could maybe sort of understand (not really but I could handwave it) but it barely lasted a couple of episodes and then she was all ok again. Like whaaaat? I think I prefer the ignorant bliss tbh.

[writersblock51]

Yep, we were also told how Laurel finding out about Oliver being Arrow was going to make her fans happy and those who weren't fans... well, we may feel more inclined to like her after all. 

 

Uh, no.  That didn't happen. At. All.

 

And it's inherently problematic when an executive producer is telling viewers to give a character another shot after THEY'VE screwed her up so badly and in so many ways. Their attempts to 'fix' her have largely backfired.

 

My biggest complaint about Laurel's 'crucible' is that it was mostly self-inflicted and therefore paled in every way possible to what Sara went through.  It's resulted in an unrelenting disconnect between the show's original hope of Laurel as Black Canary and the fleshed out Sara as Black Canary that they've provided.

[Morrigan2575]

My personal favorite was the oh once you find out why Laurel doesn't tell Oliver shw knows his secret you'll just love her...

Uh, you mean Lance's reasoning? That really great speech about it doesn't matter who the Arrow is, what matters is what he does? Yeah that was pretty awesome but it wasn't Laurel's reason!

[writersblock51]

I'm having wicked flashbacks.  God, I hated all of that hyped up stuff so badly.  It was so poorly executed that I wonder if the EPs had truly seen it (and in the version that would be aired) before they started talking about it. 

[Sakura12]

I don't think they learned much since they are still going with "YOU WILL LIKE LAUREL!" hoping if they say it enough times eventually it will come true. 

[Guest]

Wow. How did Laurel finding out Oliver's secret make us like her more? I can't see what happened there that prompted them to say that?

 

This makes me want to take everything the EP's say with a grain of salt now because their clear disconnect between themselves and the audience is kinda shocking.

 

And I gotta say, when someone repeatedly tells me I will like something, I'm probably going to hate it on principle. I hate being told what to feel. 

[Chaser]

Out of curiosity, SA has done three or four Q&As this summer and this last one is the first one where I heard Laurel's name brought up. Where there others that I missed?

[wonderwall]

I don't believe anyone asked about Laurel to SA. And I find it quite hilarious that the only question asked about her was whether Laurel was going to die or not :p

[writersblock51]

I personally find that the disconnect with the EP's statements generally applies to Laurel.

 

Not all the time, of course.  They seem to miss the boat on other character's points and motives, too.

[statsgirl]

Somehow I get the feeling the people asking the question were hoping she was going to die.

 

Wow. How did Laurel finding out Oliver's secret make us like her more? I can't see what happened there that prompted them to say that?

She did a huge whiteboard, confirmed what Slade had said, and didn't turn Oliver in to save her father.  Not that anyone else who found out about him was going to turn him in either, not Diggle or Felicity or Tommy or Moira or Sara or Roy, but apparently Laurel not doing it makes her a hero.

 

Did they really think we expected her to turn Oliver in to get her father out of jail?  After her father asked her not to?  Well, maybe I did but that's because I have no respect her.

 

I personally find that the disconnect with the EP's statements generally applies to Laurel.

They love her, they really, really love her.  Remember when AK thought the reason people were unhappy with Laurel's story was because she hadn't put on the fishnets yet?  There are also some fans who really love her and MG and AK probably pay more attention to those tweets.

Edited September 16, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

I think the EPs are blind to Laurel's faults because they love her too much. Or at least, I think they love the idea of her and who she could've been too much

I mean, oy with the poodles already... We get it. You think Laurel's awesome. But that's not how it comes across on screen.

[Guest]

I think the EPs are blind to Laurel's faults because they love her too much. Or at least, I think they love the idea of her and who she could've been too much

I mean, oy with the poodles already... We get it. You think Laurel's awesome. But that's not how it comes across on screen.

 

THIS. I guess sometimes we can't let go of an idea of someone, even when we should. Just like O/L were in love with the idea of each other, the EP's seem to be in love with their original idea of Laurel even though it's clearly not working. Ugh. I was trying to keep my fingers crossed that they'd learned about Laurel over two seasons worth of mistakes but that dialogue hint has thrown me off. 

[TanyaKay]

I'm having wicked flashbacks.  God, I hated all of that hyped up stuff so badly.  It was so poorly executed that I wonder if the EPs had truly seen it (and in the version that would be aired) before they started talking about it. 

 

Expect the worst when they praise to the moon. The only things that they hyped and actually delivered so far were ...

 

1) People will like Sara's entrance to the show - barring hard core KC fans, most of us liked that.

2) That Barry is awkward and cute and audience will like it - we did like him, esp when he told Oliver that he was being a jerk even though Barry was his biggest fanboy

3) Before premier last year, they promised a more solid and cohesive Team Arrow with some banter thrown in - they delivered that for first 12 episodes after which it became Unhappy Families - Queen and Lance edition.

 

Anything else that they hyped and promoted like most epic episode 15 or Barry's explosive chemistry with Felicity of KC's emmy worthy performance was all hogwash. That is why I will not take anything they say seriously. But I do reserve my right to mock anything they say regarding Laurel or KC because it is so much fun. I wonder who will I mock when they kill off Laurel (I like to believe that they will kill her off for my sanity), I may move onto someone else then.