Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[AyChihuahua]

It's 100% for plot, but it's still what happened in the show.  We can think they wouldn't do these various things, but they did, because the writing is the reality in a tv show.  I am pretty sure Felicity is going to hit the sheets with Ray in a couple episodes, which is sickening, but  then I can't then say she'd never do that...because she did.  

 

That's why it's best (for me) to quit watching.  You guys are a huge help re weaning myself off what had been my absolute favorite (current) show, because many of you are brilliant and hilarious, but the show itself is the writing + acting (which is why I've always considered Laurel partly KC's fault...I truly believe that a big part of the reason that the writing for her has been so awful is that she's not capable of doing what they wanted her to do), and the writing entirely sucks.

[Password]

You know I do think we should be careful with the marriage-Olicity comparisons. They weren't married, but as Felicity said they WERE more than friends.

I sometimes wonder if I'm projecting grief onto Felicity that I think she should feel, but perhaps things aren't quite so intense. Don't get me wrong I absolutely think Felicity is cut up about Oliver dying, but I'm reminded of a quote EBR gave after Oliver and her ended things in the premiere. "What if she falls in love with someone else? She's not going to wait around..." We applaud Felicity for this way of thinking, perhaps now it's biting us in the ass?

Regardless of Raylicity it's the Ray component that makes me go eeeeeeeh. So Felicity falling for him is just whaaaaaa?

I've been reduced to strange noises.

[Carrie Ann]

I think it's just tough because it feels as though there is an unequal love between Oliver and Felicity right now, and that's not my favorite dynamic to see in my ships. But I don't think that's at all what the writers intend. I think they are doing with Felicity in this area what they are doing in every other area: assuming she's a solid enough character that they can neglect her and make her ride shotgun on other characters' journeys. They talk a big game about her claiming this life outside the Foundry, and what that has amounted to is becoming the right-hand girl and love interest for another CEO/Vigilante Hero. Yeah, she got her VP title, but we don't see her working on her own projects--we only see her working on Ray's ATOM suit projects, accompanying him to meetings, beaming up at him in press conferences.

 

So anyway, the writers are just trusting that we will assume she loves Oliver the same way he loves her, and that we like Felicity enough that we'll always be on her side, so they don't need to even bother articulating it. Yes, that train scene on the wrong show was the most we've ever gotten out of her explicitly regarding her feelings. I fully expect her to say a bunch of things in 312 that will almost seem out of nowhere to me, but I will appreciate them anyway, because I just want to hear from her. And the only reason we haven't is that the writers are not as invested in telling her story as they are Oliver's and Ray's. I'm not surprised about the Oliver piece, but I resent like hell that Felicity's story has been given short-shrift just so she can support Ray.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Shanna]

You know I do think we should be careful with the marriage-Olicity comparisons. They weren't married, but as Felicity said they WERE more than friends.

I sometimes wonder if I'm projecting grief onto Felicity that I think she should feel, but perhaps things aren't quite so intense. Don't get me wrong I absolutely think Felicity is cut up about Oliver dying, but I'm reminded of a quote EBR gave after Oliver and her ended things in the premiere. "What if she falls in love with someone else? She's not going to wait around..." We applaud Felicity for this way of thinking, perhaps now it's biting us

.

I'm kind of half and half in this...

1. Does she really and truly believe Oliver is dead? I think she's trying to accept it but laurel was right (and that is probably the last time you will hear that!) that Malcolm lies. There is no body. So she may be kind of mourning and not mourning.

2. Sometimes people mourn by trying to make themselves feel alive and sex (although I don't want to see this happening) is a way some people do it.

3. I don't have a problem with flirting under most circumstances because it's sort of mild way of relating and sometimes pretty harmless. I would like to see evidence in show that she's not all happy go lucky with Oliver possibly dead. But I didn't watch this episode so I can't tell whether it is over the line or not. And

4. Oliver, as you said, gave up on their relationship. They may love each other but they were not together and there is nothing really wrong with felicity moving on. I also think felicity is good at suppressing her Oliver feelings so I don't think that if she doesn't show them, they are not there. When she doesn't think it will happen, she puts them away.

Now all that said, I don't want her with ray and this isn't how I would have written it. But it doesn't hurt her character thing for me. The Quentin thing makes me so much madder.

. And the only reason we haven't is that the writers are not as invested in telling her story as they are Oliver's and Ray's. I'm not surprised about the Oliver piece, but I resent like hell that Felicity's story has been given short-shrift just so she can support Ray.

ETA yes! To this and your whole post in general. Edited January 30, 2015 by Shanna

[AyChihuahua]

 

4. Oliver, as you said, gave up on their relationship. They may love each other but they were not together and there is nothing really wrong with felicity moving.

In a week?  One of my favorite little old lady dogs died a couple years ago and I was definitively sad about it for months.  Peggy Carter is still mourning Cap and it's been a couple years, and they weren't actually together.  Maybe I'm one of the few who loved Oliver, but I can't imagine loving someone like that, knowing that he died heroically, and then flirting with some dude a week later.  I guess that completely cheapens their relationship, whatever it was, to me.  I mean I'd think even if she only liked him like as a friend she'd still be pretty devastated for longer than a week.  

Edited January 30, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Password]

I really wonder what my reaction would be if Ray was more like Barry. Sweet, adorable, smart but a man, not a man child like Barry. Not to mention the shady things Ray did in the first 2 episodes of the show, if they were done away with, what would my complexion of Raylicity be?

EBR said something interesting at the end of season 2. She said Felicity is in love with Oliver but she doesn't know if he's the ONE. I can actually totally get behind this, but the show has this shoddy way of executing actions on the show that people have, myself included, seen some of Felicity's actions as projection onto Ray.

Anyway this post isn't bitter. Or maybe I'm bitter that things are messy between a couple I loved for their simplicity.

In a week?  One of my favorite little old lady dogs died a couple years ago and I was definitively sad about it for months.  Peggy Carter is still mourning Cap and it's been a couple years, and they weren't actually together.  Maybe I'm one of the few who loved Oliver, but I can't imagine loving someone like that, knowing that he died heroically, and then flirting with some dude a week later.  I guess that completely cheapens their relationship, whatever it was, to me.  I mean I'd think even if she only liked him like as a friend she'd still be pretty devastated for longer than a week.

It's funny, I actually throw more shade at Ray in this situation. He saw how cut up she was just a week ago about this person who died and was more than a friend. Yet brother is still moving in on her. Good one show.

[Shanna]

In a week? One of my favorite little old lady dogs died a couple years ago and I was definitively sad about it for months. Peggy Carter is still mourning Cap and it's been a couple years, and they weren't actually together. Maybe I'm one of the few who loved Oliver, but I can't imagine loving someone like that, knowing that he died heroically, and then flirting with some dude a week later. I guess that completely cheapens their relationship, whatever it was, to me. I mean I'd think even if she only liked him like as a friend she'd still be pretty devastated for longer than a week.

I'm saying people grieve in different ways. Sometimes humor, and human interactions help get you through grief. I would expect her to have moments that are happier, and moments where she is distracting herself with flirting, or work or what have you. But it definitely should balanced with showing us the other side. Also my number one was that they may only kind of accept Oliver as dead. I know we broke through denial last week but it's not uncommon to cycle back in.

Of course Oliver isn't actually dead.

And it's not uncommon for someone whose dog has died to run out and get a new one for that matter...

RE: Ray, he's always been inappropriately in Felicitys way so I'm never surprised by him. I'm just irritated whenever shows want me to accept Brandon as not evil.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Shanna

[Password]

And it's not uncommon for someone whose dog has died to run out and get a new one for that matter...

Oooh burn you compared Ray to a dog. Snap!

[AyChihuahua]

 

It's funny, I actually throw more shade at Ray in this situation. He saw how cut up she was just a week ago about this person who died and was more than a friend. Yet brother is still moving in on her. Good one show.

I expect disgusting things from Ray.  I was fully aboard the Ray's-a-creeper train.  But I loved Felicity.  Between her being basically okay, after a WEEK (emphasis not directed at you), that Oliver is dead, and helping with the grotesque and totally unnecessary fooling of Quentin, I actually don't like her anymore.  Because again, the writing is the reality.  She's doing these terrible things, and it doesn't matter that I didn't think she would, because she has.  And I hated Laurel for being so gd cold to Oliver when he returned (as I've said, I wouldn't expect her to want to hang out with him, but cheating really pales next to death), and I think Felicity is going to do something similar.  My love for Felicity absolutely hasn't survived the crap they're having her do.  

 

 

I'm saying people grieve in different ways. Sometimes humor, and human interactions help get you through grief.

People absolutely grieve in different ways, but I've never known anyone who grieved by flirting with some dude a week after their loved one died violently and heroically.  I'd be more okay if they just had some we're-not-dead-too sex, than actual flirting.

Edited January 30, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I've been thinking about this all afternoon since I read MG's tweet. I haven't let completely go of Arrow because this forum, some really good fanfic, and elements of the show keep drawing me in like the faintest light of a lighthouse barely visible through the densest fog. 

 

However, I do believe it is time to cut ties with all things Arrow. 

 

The TV industry is a fickle one. Viewers are sensitive. There are multiple factions of the fandom who support or decry different elements of a show. Viewers provide feedback easily with increased access to showrunners, actors, and critics. TV sponsors are concerned with numbers and how those numbers increase the pennies in their pockets. It's a fascinating machine. 

 

I have tolerated many story lines on TV shows I am not 100% on board with. I've endured couples being kept apart and wasting time before we get those happily ever after moments which may or may not come to an end. I've envisioned shows going other ways than what I've watched play out on my screen. I've never been disrespected as a viewer before. 

 

MG is probably just suffering some undiagnosed social malady. Perhaps he suffers from over exposure to technology and not enough interaction with real life humans. He might have paid someone to follow him around and boost his ego and now it is an uncontrollable beast. I should just say  "it's MG being MG."  In this instance though I feel completely disrespected. While my one pair of eyes glued to the TV won't make or break MG's career, I won't tolerate his attitude towards the viewers. 

 

My hope for the show might not be what happens. However, whatever element of the show I enjoy or dislike shouldn't place me in a tweet, tumblr, Facebook post, or whatever other medium MG spots off on. His tweet about those throwing shade wasn't directed at me. Personally I am of the camp who wants to see Laurel off training for a decade in some remote village where there is no cell service, internet, or hope of being heard from again. I'm annoyed on behalf of those who have waited 2.5 seasons only to be given LL as BC in the shittiest way possible and then mocked because their dreams came true. The tweets might actually be epic if he does allow Olicity more than two seconds of happiness. I hope the largest faction of the fandom is ready to be virtually bitch slapped. 

 

MG needs a good dose of reality. He may have been gifted a season 4 (I personally don't think they earned it), but S5 won't happen if you keep treating your viewers like second class citizens. Your viewers are your bread and butter and mocking them isn't the wisest of decisions. You need to appreciate them even if they aren't kissing your ass. You can't write for all of them, but you damn well better behave better than a toddler throwing a fit. 

[NumberCruncher]

I honestly don't think the show is going to go anywhere and will be around for several more seasons. The CW needs this show to keep the male demo and they're using Arrow to do it. That's obviously why all those articles came out around the time of the TCAs about how important the show has been to the network. In all reality, they could completely shit all over the characters and storylines (even worse than they have) and the "Because COMICS!" crowd will still watch so long as there are characters with the right names wearing masks and plenty of fight scenes. Clearly TPTB know this so here we sit. Whatever. I'm to the point that I'm just indifferent. This season has cured me of any fervent fangirling. I don't even care enough to ever post anything at MG or the writers because if there's one thing I've learned over years of watching TV, you can never dissuade showrunners from thinking their shitty ideas are award-worthy masterpieces.

I've finally reached the nirvana of being fine not watching things that don't interest me and choosing to watch only those episodes that sound enjoyable. Maybe I'll go back and binge watch the episodes I miss if the season completely turns around into total amazingness, but then again, maybe I won't. Right now, the only episodes that pique my interest are 3x17 (Deadshot!) and 3x18 (Mama Smoak!). In the meantime, I'm enjoying reading everyone's thoughts and reactions. I find that I enjoy these boards so much more than the show anyway. :)

Edited January 30, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I honestly don't think the show is going to go anywhere and will be around for several more seasons. The CW needs this show to keep the male demo and they're using Arrow to do it. That's obviously why all those articles came out around the time of the TCAs about how important the show has been to the network. In all reality, they could completely shit all over the characters and storylines (even worse than they have) and the "Because COMICS!" crowd will still watch so long as there are characters with the right names wearing masks and plenty of fight scenes. Clearly TPTB know this so here we sit. Whatever. I'm to the point that I'm just indifferent. This season has cured me of any fervent fangirling. I don't even care enough to ever post anything at MG or the writers because if there's one thing I've learned over years of watching TV, you can never dissuade showrunners from thinking their shitty ideas are award-worthy masterpieces.

I've finally reached the nirvana of being fine not watching things that don't interest me and choosing to watch only those episodes that sound enjoyable. Maybe I'll go back and binge watch the episodes I miss if the season completely turns around into complete amazingness, but then again, maybe I won't. Right now, the only episodes that pique my interest are 3x17 (Deadshot!) and 3x18 (Mama Smoak!). In the meantime, I'm enjoying reading everyone's thoughts and reactions. I find that I enjoy these boards so much more than the show anyway. :)

 

Reminds me of TIIC of One Tree Hill. His favorite quote about the show was "writing gold." OTH was anything but good writing. Apparently to be a TV writer you must have an over-inflated ego. A true creative personality balances criticisms and praise in order to better their work. Otherwise you come off like an eccentric fool. I'd rather be remembered for my work than my antics.

[Sakura12]

I don't doubt that this show will stick around, but that doesn't mean it's going to be good. Smallville lasted 10 years and was a horrible mess for most of those years. I stopped watching TVD after S1 and it's still around but hasn't gotten better. It's the CW, the show would have to do a huge nose dive in ratings to get cancelled, even then it could still stay on if the demos they want keep coming in.  

[Shanna]

if there's one thing I've learned over years of watching TV, you can never dissuade showrunners from thinking their shitty ideas are award-worthy masterpieces.

I've finally reached the nirvana of being fine not watching things that don't interest me and choosing to watch only those episodes that sound enjoyable. Maybe I'll go back and binge watch the episodes I miss if the season completely turns around into total amazingness, but then again, maybe I won't. Right now, the only episodes that pique my interest are 3x17 (Deadshot!) and 3x18 (Mama Smoak!). In the meantime, I'm enjoying reading everyone's thoughts and reactions. I find that I enjoy these boards so much more than the show anyway. :)

On the boldest part, lord knows that's the truth! Sometimes you can make sure their next shitty idea doesn't get picked up though (I'm looking at you HIMYM).

I am going to skip episodes that sound like they will suck for now. I'll check it out when Oliver comes back and definitely at least dead shot and mama smoak episodes! But I am watching to see if it's time to dump it after that. The thing is, you really don't end up missing the actual show when you do that. Just the idea of what could have been...

[olicityfan25]

Has this show even won any awards?  I know The Flash won People's choice award for favourite new show I think.

[chaos is welcome]

Lots of noms, no wins...I think wikepidia has a fairly accurate list of award noms/wins on the arrow page

[NumberCruncher]

On the boldest part, lord knows that's the truth! Sometimes you can make sure their next shitty idea doesn't get picked up though (I'm looking at you HIMYM).

I am going to skip episodes that sound like they will suck for now. I'll check it out when Oliver comes back and definitely at least dead shot and mama smoak episodes! But I am watching to see if it's time to dump it after that. The thing is, you really don't end up missing the actual show when you do that. Just the idea of what could have been...

Well that's what fanfiction is for. ;) In all seriousness I've read some fan-created arcs that are far superior to what MG has managed to cobble together.

[statsgirl]

I think there are many fanfic arcs that are better than this -- and some of the arcs suggested here.

[wonderwall]

I think there are many fanfic arcs that are better than this -- and some of the arcs suggested here.

An example of fanfiction that's better than the show right now: X

[Duke Silver]

The showrunners can go eat a giant bag of dicks for all I care at this point.  I'll stick around to see some more of Maseo/Tatsu/Oliver fight scenes, assuming we get more.  Once those three part  ways, I'll likely bow out rather than watch the presumed downward spiral of Felicity/Diggle/et al in furtherance of Fake Canary.

[chaos is welcome]

I expect disgusting things from Ray.  I was fully aboard the Ray's-a-creeper train.  But I loved Felicity.  Between her being basically okay, after a WEEK (emphasis not directed at you), that Oliver is dead, and helping with the grotesque and totally unnecessary fooling of Quentin, I actually don't like her anymore.  Because again, the writing is the reality.  She's doing these terrible things, and it doesn't matter that I didn't think she would, because she has.  And I hated Laurel for being so gd cold to Oliver when he returned (as I've said, I wouldn't expect her to want to hang out with him, but cheating really pales next to death), and I think Felicity is going to do something similar.  My love for Felicity absolutely hasn't survived the crap they're having her do.  

 

People absolutely grieve in different ways, but I've never known anyone who grieved by flirting with some dude a week after their loved one died violently and heroically.  I'd be more okay if they just had some we're-not-dead-too sex, than actual flirting.

Oh this, so much this.

My only hope for the Oliver being dead SL was that Oliver would get the welcoming he deserves for once, bc he didn't last time. Obviously different people and different situations and blah blah blah, but I am bitter that he can't just be happy to be home and not dead. They have to immediately give him another whammy.

No, I don't expect Felicity to wait around for him BUT I am terrified of the circumstances in which she will say this stupid line we have been hearing so much about. I am endlessly bitter that they will continue to not give Oliver a break, and that they do not understand you have to blend some victory/happiness for our hero in w the "angst" in order for me to watch. Felicity has literally been the only person they have shown us he has thought about from home. And she will tell him to leave her alone. Not gonna watch that, sorry, no.

[Chaser]

I was only going to skip 3.11 and 3.13 but the more I hear about the upcoming episodes the more I feel I need to be a youtube watcher. I can't watch them walk all over my favorite characters.

 

It boggles my mind that these guys are getting paid to write these stories.

[Password]

I haven't even watched any other scene than that pretty yucky kiss. I'm very quickly losing interest in Arrow altogether. I'm frightened that NONE of anything coming up peaks my interest, except Slade being crazy.

And Diggle and Felicity. Though if they do crazy things in that episode I'll just...sigh.

[TanyaKay]

Even in his dreams Oliver kisses Felicity as if she were a Vestal virgin placed on a pedestal! If this relationship moves ahead positively, I'm sure it will give new meaning to the word vanilla.

Everyone involved needs to watch John and Aeryn in Farscape.

What is it with keeping it like they are two 14 year olds on a chaperoned date? Bring in some heat please .... We know the actors have chemistry and we know other 8:00 pm shows on CW have shown us some pretty extensive making out (looking at you GossipGirl & Vampire Diaries). Can we have Oliver and Felicity indulging in some adult make out sessions please .... This show badly needs some levity and love making, because barring Diggle, everyone is single, lonely and angsty, even the older folks. It just gets too miserable at times.

[MostlyC]

The topic is Arrow.  This is where we talk about things that have happened in the past on Arrow.  If it hasn't happened on the show already, it goes to hopes and fears or some other more appropriate topic.

 

Further posts will be deleted.

[DrSpaceman10]

What is it with keeping it like they are two 14 year olds on a chaperoned date? Bring in some heat please .... We know the actors have chemistry and we know other 8:00 pm shows on CW have shown us some pretty extensive making out (looking at you GossipGirl & Vampire Diaries). Can we have Oliver and Felicity indulging in some adult make out sessions please .... This show badly needs some levity and love making, because barring Diggle, everyone is single, lonely and angsty, even the older folks. It just gets too miserable at times.

 

Well to be fair, I think SA had to keep the blood in his mouth while he was kissing Felicity, so I think that's why that kiss was on the chaste side. We could really use some sexy times though (just not between Ray and Felicity please).

[Sakura12]

We traded this

 

 

For this

 

[GirlWednesday]

HAhahaha! Sakura.  this just made my day.  I haven't watched any eps since the Climb because everything I'm reading is making me nervous.  But wow! how did the writers think we (the audience) would be interested in watching a bumbling, buffoonish heroette when we had a kick ass HERO. so pathetic! and so delusional!

 

How is that a compelling story that I want to watch.  Arrow does have a blind spot with Laurel. And so do the writers.

Edited January 30, 2015 by GirlWednesday

[wonderwall]

Well to be fair, Laurel is still learning. I think that's the whole point of that shot. I can't blame them for that. It would be ridiculous if Laurel had that skill from the get go... But I'm sure in season 4, KCs stunt double will have her work cut out for her. Also, I wonder, whatever happened to the sleek straight hair KC wanted for her wig? 

 

Although I do find it frustrating that they have to focus on Laurel actually training now instead of focusing on important things like establishing a good villain, Oliver's relationship with Diggle/Felicity and how that's changing, Felicity/Diggle interactions, integrating Roy into the team more properly by having more Team Arrow moments... Having Laurel start out from scratch is just grating to me imo. I don't want to deal with that because I want the show to move forward, but instead it's stuck trying to make Laurel a hero. IDK that's just how I feel about her arc right now. Because thinking about it, what's the point of Laurel's character right now? I don't see the point in her character... Take out Laurel and nothing changes. The thing that the writers failed to do in the past two episodes was to show Laurel's importance, because quite frankly, I don't see it. 

[Sakura12]

I haven't watched an ep since the Calm. Which I thought was a good episode until the end where they ruined the entire show for me. 

 

They have failed to make Laurel important to the show. You can remove her scenes and nothing changes. When they made sure that Sara was important, you can't remove her scenes without changing things. She was a big part of Oliver's year two on the Island, the Slade debacle with Shado's death, the Mirakuru drug and Diggle named his first born after her.  The only reason Laurel's important is because Sara died so she could replace her (when that really wasn't necessary storywise. Why would we want training wheels Canary when we had an already established kick ass hero?) It's only necessary because comics. 

Edited January 30, 2015 by Sakura12

[GirlWednesday]

I like Team Arrow so I watched upto Climb, skipping all Laurel episodes.  I subscribed to ITunes so no way, was I going to give Apple or Arrow my $$ for shite plotlines.  My personal rebellion against killing Sara to make LL relevant. lol.

 

I'm bitter because if they had kept Sara, Nyssa would be in the show more. I would see flashbacks of Sara and Ollie surviving in their personal hells - all tied into present day Malcolm Merlyn/Thea villain storyline. Team Arrow, plus Roy would be in direct conflict with Nyssa/Sara over how to handle the Merlyns.

 

I'm bitter because if they had kept Sara, and LL wanted to be a hero just like her superfriends, then we could have finally had a hero who didn't come from a negative place. As much as I dislike LL, I would not have minded that. LL having to work her ass off to prove herself worthy (because she was not a genius hacker, solider, spy, assassin or a survivor of five years of hell).  This season could have been about what defines a hero.  What made you strong originally or what inspires you to fight? Oliver (Felicity) Sara (Sin), etc etc.

 

lol - I think I may need to start writing fan fic..

Edited January 30, 2015 by GirlWednesday

[dtissagirl]

Well to be fair, Laurel is still learning. I think that's the whole point of that shot. I can't blame them for that. It would be ridiculous if Laurel had that skill from the get go...

 

I get what you're saying, but I can't help but think we are supposed to compare them, because Laurel is not only dressing up as Sara, but literally pretending to be Sara.

And I agree that it is an unfair comparison, because one was a ninja assassin killer machine, and the other is swimming in the kiddie pool. But even from an outside of the narrative standpoint, the action shots for Laurel are being set up pretty much the same way they used to set them up for Sara's, but instead of the BAMF pose in the end, there's Laurel falling down atop the van.

My point is, if they didn't want us to compare their proficiency, Laurel would be wearing another suit, and using different weapons.

[DrSpaceman10]

I'm bitter that (awesomely heroic) Felicity is stuck in a love triangle solely designed to torture Oliver (because we definitely haven't had enough of Oliver's suffering) and make Ray popular enough for his own spin-off. 

[Password]

Hmm is it working? I really wonder how most of the viewers see him.

[statsgirl]

I think it helped up to now because it gave him a purpose on the show although I think the sparkle of their scenes was vastly overstated. But if Felicity dates Ray after Oliver returns, I think it will backlash on Ray the way it did on Sara last season.  That's why none of this makes sense to me, if no one else, Berlanti should be smart enough to know that.

 

I"m bitter that Ray still really only interacts with Felicity.  They need to spread him out to other characters, both for his sake and hers.

[apinknightmare]

I think it helped up to now because it gave him a purpose on the show although I think the sparkle of their scenes was vastly overstated. But if Felicity dates Ray after Oliver returns, I think it will backlash on Ray the way it did on Sara last season.  That's why none of this makes sense to me, if no one else, Berlanti should be smart enough to know that.

 

I"m bitter that Ray still really only interacts with Felicity.  They need to spread him out to other characters, both for his sake and hers.

 

Sadly, I think the backlash will be on Felicity more than Ray. But he'll definitely take some of it. And hopefully those tons of scenes he has with Oliver come soon, because you're right. He needs someone else to interact with desperately. 

[Sakura12]

They should call Laurel the Bumbling Buckle until she trains hard for years then can take the name Black Canary when she's closer to 40. 

 

She'll never embody the BC from the comics but lets keep forcing her into the role because of them. 

[kismet]

I think it helped up to now because it gave him a purpose on the show although I think the sparkle of their scenes was vastly overstated. But if Felicity dates Ray after Oliver returns, I think it will backlash on Ray the way it did on Sara last season.  That's why none of this makes sense to me, if no one else, Berlanti should be smart enough to know that.

 

I"m bitter that Ray still really only interacts with Felicity.  They need to spread him out to other characters, both for his sake and hers.

Im not sure how much Berlanti is involved in the arcs of Arrow any more and that may be the biggest concern. I think he is focused on other projects which is why there was a distinct shift from character based story to plot based story. Many shows have suffered from the loss if the voice that was making their show special (west wing, gilmore girls, lost, alias) the list could go on. A strong cast/crew can pull you through the rough spots, but there always is adjustment seasons. The question becomes do you stay or leave at the end of it?

 

MG seems to be surprised with fan reaction about just about everything on the show which means for as much time as he spends on social media, he doesn't have any grasp on the pulse of what makes the show special. I really am bitter sometimes about how TPTB perhaps underestimate the audience's intelligence. Im not quite sure at times who they are writing for.

 

Im also bitter that so much of the show floundering is being blamed on Olicity and the strength of that fandom. The show has a lot of problems or areas for improvement. A lot of frustration has more to do with just dealing with angst of Olicity. MG & the writers seem to think that is why people are upset with the show. I want to give them a big slab of wood over the head to get them to see that Oliver & Felicity not being together is the least of their problems. This season is riddled with character inconsistencies, poorly developed plots, absurd stretches of reality and most of all an overwhelming lack of direction. So far on the year of discovering who they are, what I have summized is that the characters figure out who they want to be by copying the person next to them. Its like a bad role-playing exercise. Like others have said, Oliver/Felicity have been perhaps the best written of arcs over the course of the season, and even that has been unbalanced & flawed.

 

Someone needs to start worrying about the direction of the show, instead of just wondering what they can spin-off the show.

[yellowfred]

So, I finally got around to watching this week's episode, and I'm really bitter that they're making Lance into such an idiot, just to drag on with this terrible storyline of his not knowing Sara's dead.  Like, I can maybe believe that random folks on the street might only recognize the Canary from the blond hair and black leather outfit, but he's her father; he should be able to tell the difference between his daughters.  It's not even just that they have clearly different builds; you can tell from watching her for five seconds that Laurel doesn't fight the way Sara did (on a side note, I actually did appreciate that they showed her really not knowing what to do with a bo staff, since she's had exactly zero training with it).  Not to mention, he has to find it more than a little suspicious that she would only talk to him in a dark alley while she stood up on a fire escape where he couldn't even see her face.  Like, okay, he clearly found it a little strange, but more in a "something dangerous must be going on" kind of way, rather than the "someone is clearly impersonating you" way that I was hoping for. 

 

Also, I'm really bitter that the opening credits got my hopes up and then all we got was Sara's simulated voice. 

[Password]

I've just realised it's pretty disgusting that they had Felicity make a voice impersonating device to deceive Quentin. It's beyond anything I've ever thought Felicity capable of.

[thuganomics85]

What is weird to me is that I think I could have handled that part a little better if I felt like there was some guilt from Team Arrow.  Like, the scene where Felicity and Diggle were talking about it.  Instead of just an exposition dump (which was what it basically was), had Diggle been like "Does anyone else feel like this is kind of messed up?", followed by Felicity saying something like "Yeah, but we really need this info, and I can't think of anything else.", I wouldn't have excused it, but I would at least felt like they were on the same wavelength as me.  

 

Instead, the way it was played and written, they almost seemed indifferent.  Diggle was basically "Oh, you're faking Sara's voice and tricking her dad?  Interesting, I guess.", while Felicity was all "Yeah, just part of the job." about it.  It was really, really weird.

 

Even then, I feel like that being generous.  As pointed here and on other sites, Diggle has said they should have told Quentin in early episodes.  He really should have been extremely furious about this.  And, the Felicity from the past would have been like "Nope, nope!  A wee bit creepy, now, guys!"  Instead, it's like they are resigned to just do that the scripts tells them to.

Edited January 31, 2015 by thuganomics85

[Shanna]

As much as people talk about olicity, this Quentin thing is the thing I'm maddest about too. Thuganomics, it is particularly gauling that they took the blame which had previously fallen only on laurel and shoved it into felicity and Diggle by making them complicit. And for what reason? Just tell the man his daughter is dead. I am so so mad about this plot line.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Shanna

[wonderwall]

I didn't really have a problem with KC's acting in this episode, or even in the last one as far as I can remember. But fan favorite? No, not for me. My biggest problem is in the way they're presenting the character and her journey. I've gone into each episode this season with an open mind. I've avoided fan boards so as not to see other people complaining, which might affect my own opinion. And we have now reached a point where I dislike Laurel even more than I did in season 2, and that is saying something. It's not even about her being BC - it's just in the way the character comes across in general.

It's funny how more people are liking Laurel the more she does disgusting things like fool her own father by impersonating her sister, threaten a black man with false charges, and bring up Andy in front of Diggle just so she can get what she wants like it's okay for her to do that. Laurel was disgusting through and through last episode. Mind you, I never loved Laurel, I never hated her either. I thought KC did well in terms of acting in episode 11, but because of the way Laurel was written I hated her and it was disconcerting to see people praise Laurel and her actions. Any good that Laurel was in the previous seasons has been ruined for the sake of BC and making that persona look like a 'badass'. I sinceriously believe that the writers have done good regarding BC, but they've destroyed the woman underneath to the point where I find her to be irredeemable. I'm done giving Laurel chances to be quite honest.

[poetgirl925]

True. I could see some people's argument previously that Sara being an assassin wasn't worthy of BC. It fit the Arrow world though, and we saw Sara struggle with the moral dilemma, so I was okay with it. But I could see where Laurel supporters said she had a moral high ground. As far I'm concerned, that's gone now. She killed a man last season - even cops struggle with shootings, but not Laurel. She was going to kill someone in a premeditated manner this season, but Oliver stopped her. Now she's beating people up for vengeance and doing all sorts of things not worthy of her job as an ADA, much less BC. And this really bugs me because even though I never really loved Laurel before, I believed she cared about the law. They're really ripping her morality from her at this point, and I see zero struggle with that. She's just never going to be a character that makes sense, I guess.

[Sakura12]

I don't think they changed much with Laurel. She always acted like she entitled to things and just did whatever she wanted regardless of the consequences.

 

Season 1: Got upset that Tommy couldn't get them a table at a restaurant without money, Took joy in telling her mother that the girl in the picture wasn't Sara in public. Staying at the office when everyone and their mothers told her to leave the Glades because of an Earthquake. She stayed to push around paper or something. Tommy came to rescue her stupid stubborn ass and died because of that.

 

Season 2: Knew about Oliver's cheating and just seemed to fancy herself as Mrs. Oliver Queen. Treated Felicity like she the Help, Finds out her sister isn't dead and makes it all about her, thinks she can get out of a DUI because she's works for the DA, blackmails her boss to get her job back, thinks she's the only one with problems and no one elses matter. Smiles when her sister goes back to the life of an assassin because she gets her jacket. 

 

Season 3. Thinks she can become her sister because she has a jacket and no one can stop her, beats up an unarmed man, injured man in a hospital bed because she's angry, Fools her own father by impersonating her sister because it will hurt her to tell him Sara's dead, threaten a black man with false charges, and bring up Andy in front of Diggle just so she can get what she wants.

 

I think the EP's think that Laurel's stubbornness shows the fire inside her, when it really makes her look like an uncaring idiot. Or a sociopath.

 

Honoring Sara would be thinking about what Sara would want. Sara would want her father to know she's dead so he can mourn and move on. She would never give him false hope. She never even wanted them to know she was alive for that reason. Which shows how much Laurel doesn't know about Sara. That's why her "honoring" Sara feels so false. She's not doing it for Sara, she's doing it for herself, insulting Sara's memory and hurting their father in the process.

 

What a great hero she is.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Sakura12

[AyChihuahua]

 

had Diggle been like "Does anyone else feel like this is kind of messed up?", followed by Felicity saying something like "Yeah, but we really need this info, and I can't think of anything else.", I wouldn't have excused it, but I would at least felt like they were on the same wavelength as me.

The thing is, there was absolutely zero reason to do this AT ALL.  Felicity could have just called, as herself, and asked Quentin.  He is extremely well aware that Felicity works with the Arrow, meaning he knows she works with the Arrow's partner.  Absolutely zero reason for any kind of trickery.

 

"Hello Detective, um, Captain, Lance.  This is Felicity.  Hey, we need some info to help the aldermen."

"Oh hi Felicity, I'm glad you're on this.  What do you need from me?"

[statsgirl]

True, Lance would have told Felicity. He might even have told Laurel as an ADA.  There was NO REASON to fake Sara's voice.

 

I've just realised it's pretty disgusting that they had Felicity make a voice impersonating device to deceive Quentin. It's beyond anything I've ever thought Felicity capable of.

 

This at the same time that MG is saying in interviews that Felicity is the Team's moral centre.

 

It's funny how more people are liking Laurel the more she does disgusting things like fool her own father by impersonating her sister, threaten a black man with false charges, and bring up Andy in front of Diggle just so she can get what she wants like it's okay for her to do that. Laurel was disgusting through and through last episode.

They should have just gone making Laurel evil, or at least dark grey.  It would have worked for the story, it would have worked for the character, and it would have worked for KC's acting.

[Sakura12]

Well, I think Laurel's either a sociopath or robot.

 

It completely explains her wooden emotions and inability to understand normal human social cues. Like generally being nice and friendly to someone without wanting something in return. 

[Shanna]

I don't think they changed much with Laurel. She always acted like she entitled to things and just did whatever she wanted regardless of the consequences.

Season 1: Got upset that Tommy couldn't get them a table at a restaurant without money, Took joy in telling her mother that the girl in the picture wasn't Sara in public. Staying at the office when everyone and their mothers told her to leave the Glades because of an Earthquake. She stayed to push around paper or something. Tommy came to rescue her stupid stubborn ass and died because of that.

Season 2: Knew about Oliver's cheating and just seemed to fancy herself as Mrs. Oliver Queen. Treated Felicity like she the Help, Finds out her sister isn't dead and makes it all about her, thinks she can get out of a DUI because she's works for the DA, blackmails her boss to get her job back, thinks she's the only one with problems and no one elses matter. Smiles when her sister goes back to the life of an assassin because she gets her jacket.

Season 3. Thinks she can become her sister because she has a jacket and no one can stop her, beats up an unarmed man, injured man in a hospital bed because she's angry, Fools her own father by impersonating her sister because it will hurt her to tell him Sara's dead, threaten a black man with false charges, and bring up Andy in front of Diggle just so she can get what she wants.

he is.

Interesting list. I would say that during the first season I may have been annoyed with laurel at times but I actually enjoyed her with tommy and I thought errors were ones of emotion or stupidity (staying in the glades) so I guess I didn't like her but I sort of got where she was coming from?

But season 2 is where they really tore down her character with respect to the law and I think that did more damage than the writers realized. Now she's untethered to the law but she's still a lawyer and that's confusing for someone who isn't supposed to be a villain. She's more like Amanda Waller in a way. I think the idea of making her man hunter would have fit so much better than bc.

[poetgirl925]

I think I'm mostly surprised that Laurel found a new low this season, and now is dragging the others down with her. I honestly didn't think there was any way I would dislike her more this season than in season 2. I figured once Sadsack Laurel was gone, and she stopped the whining, there would have to be an improvement. I thought hey, even if her transition to BC is sloppy (and it has been) the character herself is bound to improve. But apparently Laurel is like a game of limbo. No matter how low I set the bar, she finds a way to wriggle under it, thus ensuring the bar goes lower. It's really hard to believe that the professional writers being paid to write this mess aren't doing it on purpose.

I'd like to say there's nowhere to go but up from this point, but I honestly don't know anymore. It's kind of disheartening when I've tried to have a good attitude about her increased role.