Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Sakura12]

I like that CL does acknowledges Atlin or the stunt team. She's posted pictures of them and says when they are doing the stunts, not her. She's happy to do her own stunts but knows she can't and doesn't do all of them. It's probably because she was training to be a stunt double and knows how much work they put into it and deserve recognition. 

Edited November 2, 2015 by Sakura12

[yellowfred]

 

Fans of Arrow on The CW may know what I'm talking about: Oliver Queen gets marooned on an island, yet still manages to find no fewer than three separate love interests there!

 

Ha.  In fairness, though, at least one of them he brought there with him.

[Genki]

Also he didn't get laid in Hong Kong which was full of women

[kismet]

Apparently only Lian Yu has the love mojo magic ;)

[AyChihuahua]

Why was it such a big ritual for Thea and Sara to go into the LP, but all laid back when RAG soaked his greasy self in it and/or MM used it to heal his cut?

 

Forever think it was a mistake to show RAG soaking in it like a 70s porn star.  

[apinknightmare]

To what extent this show can make sense, it doesn't seem too out there to me that bringing someone back from death would involve a little ceremony.

Edited November 3, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

To what extent this show can make sense, it doesn't seem too out there to me that bringing someone back from death would involve a little ceremony.

But Thea wasn't dead.

Edited November 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

But Thea wasn't dead.

She was brain dead, incapable of living on her own. Would have died if she hadn't been dunked. Close enough to me-I wrote back from death not back from the dead.

[AyChihuahua]

She was brain dead, incapable of living on her own. Would have died if she hadn't been dunked. Close enough to me-I wrote back from death not back from the dead.

Does the ceremony actually accomplish anything?  Did RAG go through the ceremony whenever he was seriously injured?  Do they have a committee meeting to decide whether the injury is severe enough to require the ceremony, or can just be a simple soak?

 

Is the LP heated?  

Edited November 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

Does the ceremony actually accomplish anything? Did RAG go through the ceremony whenever he was seriously injured?

I have no idea?

[AyChihuahua]

I have no idea?

Well you are no help at all.  (Also, why the question mark?  Are you holding back relevant info?)

Edited November 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[kismet]

I don't know really where to put this. But I just finished watching the BTS of House of Cards s3, and they were talking about how collaborative the process is and how Kevin Spacey & Robin Wright bring so much to the roles. The head writer was saying that he will have conversations about the characters with some of the actors and that will influence story & character moments later. It just got me wishing that ARROW did something similar. I know its a completely different level of production and money. But still I wish it was possible.

 

We all watch the show and can remember things. I don't understand why TPTB can't remember. We as the audience all can help figure out character motivations and what makes sense for certain relationships. But shouldn't the actors be able to figure some of this stuff out as well? Shouldn't they be able to say I don't think my character would say this? Or maybe my character would say it, but I thought we were trying to make a change. Or "this is bullocks" because at no point has the show every shown a close connection. Perhaps then what we see on the screen would make more sense. It may feel more consistent & congruent from episode to episode. I feel like SA may have some say, but for the others - I wonder how much collaboration there is. For example, we can kid about LL's "What about me" line in 404, but was there no one on set that thought there is no way this is going to come off as good for LL. I mean it doesn't take a genius to figure out the hallway outside of TQ's hospital room who is there because of SL's soulless zombie is the time or the place to discuss 3 years of LL feeling left out from the cool circle. Not that I want things to go rosy for LL, but I want there to be a little more logic thrown in.

 

LL's role in the whole resurrection arc felt like a call for help on how not to write a normal/sane character. A crazy not playing with a full set of marbles, yes a perfect narrative. Normal & sane, not so much. Perhaps if there was more collaboration, someone could have said I see where you're coming from writers but the way its translating on the screen is all wrong. I'm not blaming KC or SA, but did no one at any point say this feels a little off? What are we really accomplishing in these scenes. Unless that was their point, that LL is supposed to be like that for whatever bizarre reasons. Because they certainly didn't bother to spin it in the media as anything but LL being noble, brave and full of heart. Which was another level of delusional. But OK, writers.

 

I don't know, I guess I just wonder if more collaboration from people on set would make for a better overall show. It seems like some actors, directors & other depts have a more collaborative nature and those episodes or portions of the episodes seem to be the better ones.

Edited November 6, 2015 by kismet

[Morrigan2575]

Arrow does do that.  We've heard from SA, EBR, DR, KC and Manu that they've all had discussions with the EPs/Writers about their characters.  Sometimes the EPs/Writers listen to the actors input and other times they don't

[dtissagirl]

Stephen has also mentioned in some con panel that gives notes on the advance copy of the scripts, and not just about Oliver.

[kismet]

Arrow does do that.  We've heard from SA, EBR, DR, KC and Manu that they've all had discussions with the EPs/Writers about their characters.  Sometimes the EPs/Writers listen to the actors input and other times they don't

I know I've heard it. And I believe it does happen. I guess I wish it was just done better. I guess the Collaboration was just done better or more often. Because I feel like the end results might have been better. I guess I'm just a little bitter because after having to endure this slow car crash that was SL's resurrection, It felt like real failure of collaboration with some major logic flaws for me. LL acted within her self-absorbed character, but were being told its not selfish. Then we have half-assed attempts at redemption in the same episode everyone is basically just saying That's Laurel. There were just so many opportunities were it felt like somewhere along the way in the collaborative process that is TV making, someone would have stopped the presses and said this isn't gelling the way I think we want it to.

[Morrigan2575]

I have no idea how much collaboration is done with the writers/EPs.  Do you know if it's not a lot compared to other shows?

 

We know SA gets the scripts in advance and gives notes/feedback (along with DC/CW/WB) and that the actors talk to the writers about their characters and stuff.  So I know there is collaboration, I don't know how much they get compared to other shows.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[looptab]

At the end of the day, the writers decide which direction they want to take the characters and the show. So there is just so much an actor can do or say.

[kismet]

Stephen has also mentioned in some con panel that gives notes on the advance copy of the scripts, and not just about Oliver.

Well I wouldn't expect him to find any problems with LL's arc in s4a, because I think he absolutely despises the character. He's probably glad its done with, so he can get back to just ignoring her in the foundry only this time without having to put on his LL's stink face.

 

I have no idea how much collaboration is done with the writers/EPs.  Do you know it's not a lot compared to other shows?

 

We know SA gets the scripts in advance and gives notes/feedback (along with DC/CW/WB).

No, I don't. But I was simply reflecting on it. I think Collaboration is a good idea. I think it might lead to a better overall story. I'm bitter that I've had to sit through some crappy writing from writers in s3 & now s4. So I just wondered if more collaboration might help make a better story.

Edited November 6, 2015 by kismet

[dtissagirl]

I don't know how more actor collaboration could have improved the writing for Laurel specifically. I don't know how to even connect those two things. More KC input? Lordy please no.

[kismet]

I don't know how more actor collaboration could have improved the writing for Laurel specifically. I don't know how to even connect those two things. More KC input? Lordy please no.

When I spoke of collaboration, I didn't just mean the actors. Although they are there for every scene their character is in, so they would make sense. But the whole BTS process needs to be collaborative. But anyone on the cast, production or crew could have spoken up. Did nobody notice the tone of the storyline? Or are people just that oblivious or tone deaf. Or do people just really not care because its just LL or its just something they were forced to do for spin-offs.

 

I have seen how KC inputs influenced her costume, so I agree. Probably not more input from her. But if you were an actress wouldn't you want a better story. I mean people think she's lost her marbles. Now if that was what they were going for, than mission accomplished. But I think she & the writers completely missed the mark and nobody called them on it before it was too late. Her story just snowballed. I don't particularly like her character anymore myself, so its not that big of a problem. But to try to explain to other people to watch the show when they tune in and watch crappy story arcs is hard. And I'm disappointed because I want to be able to watch ARROW hanging on every minute again and not feel its ok to miss huge chunks of the episode.

 

These are the little mistakes that then lead to the big mistakes like Roy being left for dead in a puddle. Somebody needs to get more a grasp on how things are not translating from script to screen, from episode to episode or from scene to scene. I feel like collaboration amongst the entire ARROW production, cast & crew would help stop some of these misfires. I know they collaborate, but I guess I just want better collaboration - so I'm not as bitter about the results.

[lemotomato]

I might be reading too much into this, but I'm actually starting to wonder if KC maybe did have input in Laurel's "what about meeee?" rant because it was a meta way for her to complain about how she's been gradually sidelined over the seasons.

[dtissagirl]

I understand what you're saying, and I get you're venting, but I think the equation here is, the more episodes you produce in a year, the more streamlined everything is gonna be -- writing process included -- and the less in-depth collaboration is gonna happen.

 

A 10-12 episode season gives everyone working on it more room to breathe. Even if their shooting schedule is the 8-9 days industry standard [and it generally is], the writing process tends to be way WAY longer, and so does the post-production process. 22-23 episodes a year do not lend themselves to what you're suggesting. Everything REALLY goes super duper quick in every single stage of production.

 

In the particular case of Laurel, this is not the first time the writing meant to do something with her, and the audience reacted in a diametrically opposite way [why am I full of math metaphors today, Idek]. I don't know why that happens exactly, but if I could offer one tiny piece of advice: stop expecting it to change? It's been 74 episodes.

Edited November 6, 2015 by dtissagirl

[AyChihuahua]

I was trying to figure out if SA's tweet that 4.6-4.9 were the best the show's done was some shade at the Lance Family Drama Hour and LoT Spinoff Hour that have been going on the last few episodes.  I think yes, except not really on purpose.  Because I agree that he has no interest in LL or Lance Drama (although I think he enjoys working with and respects PB).

[bijoux]

Well, he's been saying that their first nine episodes of this season are their best yet for a while now. There's good stuff in the ones we've seen so far, but seeing as I just finished 2x12 in my rewatch, I can say it confirmed my belief that those first nine episodes were the best. And they still maintained a high level after the winter hiatus. I know I remember getting bored at some point but it hasn't happened yet.

[Morrigan2575]

I don't take SA seriously on that stuff.  he's always saying Best Episode Eva!

[tarotx]

There is more Lance and LOT stuff coming up in 4.6 and 4.8 that we know. I think season 4 has had good episodes. If Laurel had a more nuanced performance these episodes would be very good (though not s2 great). Plus the group fighting is still something I'm not the biggest fan. Especially when it's lessening the skill of the star.

[kismet]

I understand what you're saying, and I get you're venting, but I think the equation here is, the more episodes you produce in a year, the more streamlined everything is gonna be -- writing process included -- and the less in-depth collaboration is gonna happen.

A 10-12 episode season gives everyone working on it more room to breathe. Even if their shooting schedule is the 8-9 days industry standard [and it generally is], the writing process tends to be way WAY longer, and so does the post-production process. 22-23 episodes a year do not lend themselves to what you're suggesting. Everything REALLY goes super duper quick in every single stage of production.

In the particular case of Laurel, this is not the first time the writing meant to do something with her, and the audience reacted in a diametrically opposite way [why am I full of math metaphors today, Idek]. I don't know why that happens exactly, but if I could offer one tiny piece of advice: stop expecting it to change? It's been 74 episodes.

I see your points. I agree with most of them. I've actually stopped expecting change after this season in regards to LL. That's why I think she's dead because I feel like they are done with her too. I held out until this hiatus, but after 401~ I completely have given up on the character. I feel like I even had a heated post in the LL thread. Her story is just a good example of a failure of collaboration.

There are more examples but I hate to belabor a point. It's just a shame because I feel the show could be so much better than what it is at times.

[zxy556575]

Oh, marriages. They start out with so much hope and promise and love. If I'm converting numbers of episodes to years of weddedness, the 50-55 ep level must correlate to the 7-year itch: I'm bored with you and other shows are starting to look pret-ty good in comparison. Secret-keeping, lies, and hypocrisy aren't conducive to healthy relationships.

 

One gets tired of one's spouse telling the same stories over and over:

It's all my fault.

It's me.

I take all the blame.

I'm sorry. It was my fault.

It was my responsibility and I failed.

I failed you.

I failed everyone.

It's too dangerous for anyone but me.

It's my fault. Everything bad that happens in the world is my fault.

 

I can't extend the marriage analogy any further, but could the writers also please stop it with this:

I had no choice! They threatened my kids/son/daughter!

I had no choice! They threatened my wife/husband/significant other!

I had no choice! They threatened my sister/brother!

I had no choice! They threatened my friend!

I had no choice! They threatened my mother/father!

I had no choice! They threatened a city full of strangers!

 

Okay, yes. Maybe binging this thing in two weeks wasn't such a good idea.

Edited November 7, 2015 by lordonia

[EmeraldArcher]

I'm uncertain as to whether we'll ever see the show restore Oliver as the true lead in his own story--I could totally go on a tirade against a democratic team, "EQUALS 4-EVA!!," "killing" the protagonist so other, um, heroes can rise, and allowing wannabes to bash our original hero while he's struggling to spin off an entire universe of heroes who will perpetuate the eternal bashing of Oliver Queen, but I won't. Instead, I'd like to complain about the privileging of masks to the extent that the GA promo picture looks like it is only a hood; the face area is so shadowy that it seems like the person wearing the hood is entirely irrelevant.

I just find that to be a really odd visual, especially in a season that focuses on his choice to be both Oliver Queen and the Green Arrow.

[tv echo]

Instead, I'd like to complain about the privileging of masks to the extent that the GA promo picture looks like it is only a hood; the face area is so shadowy that it seems like the person wearing the hood is entirely irrelevant.

 

I wonder if that's foreshadowing of maybe the EPs' long-term planning in the event SA decides to quit after season 5.  The Green Arrow would be like the Dread Pirate Robert.  Oliver decides to stop doing the vigilante thing and someone else takes his place as the GA.

Edited November 11, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

Didn't SA say during a Q&A (or maybe it was on Twitter) that he's contracted for Arrow through the midway point of the next president's term? Granted, that's unreliable info given SA's difficulties with math, but it seems like maybe we're in for more than 5 seasons, and like all other promo for this show, not much thought was put into it.

[kismet]

They've already established that the Arrow/Hood is a passable title. First it was yao fei, then Shado. I could see the show having OQ pass it on to his child. The groundwork has been set for that since s1.

It's also convenient for TPTB if they want to continue the show after SA finishes his contract however long he chooses to sign/signed for.

[TyranAmiros]

Better yet, get Robbie Amell as Previously Unknown Cousin also named Oliver, to take up the mantle. Set him up with Laurel and bam, solved both the Olicity and the "canon" problems!

[Morrigan2575]

Didn't SA say during a Q&A (or maybe it was on Twitter) that he's contracted for Arrow through the midway point of the next president's term? Granted, that's unreliable info given SA's difficulties with math, but it seems like maybe we're in for more than 5 seasons, and like all other promo for this show, not much thought was put into it.

I've heard he's contracted through S6. However, I really, really don't feel like going down this rabbit hole again.

[kismet]

Slightly off topic but twice now since Wednesday I have enjoyed some tater tots (not so subliminal advertising)  I keep looking at them and imagining Ray before I dip them in ketchup and chow down.  You'd think that would put me off them but not so far!

I was really annoyed that she also called him a Cheeto. 1. Because I love Cheetos, so don't ruin them for me Arrow Writers, u've ruined enough with RP 2. Cheetos & Tater Tots are not even the same size or shape, so to me that is writing & mathematic fail. If you're gonna use food shapes & sizes at least use examples that are the same size. Like a Tater Tot & a Brussel Sprout.

[EmilyBettFan]

Aren't Brussels sprouts much bigger than a tater tot? Those are pretty small.

[kismet]

Brussel Sprouts are typically 2.5–4 cm (0.98–1.6 in) in diameter. Thank you Wikipedia! But apparently nobody on the internet has documented the size of a Tater Tot? Epic fail internet. Seriously though, no bored college student thought to measure a tot and share that knowledge.

 

I may be wrong, but at least they are more of a similar shape. A few months ago, I had to cook dinner for my friend's kids, they appeared to be about the same size per my memory recall. Because we tried to say they were both tots only one was green and the other was brown to get them to eat it. It worked. The power of magical words like tots.  

 

Either way a Cheeto & a Tater Tot have nothing in common shape or size wise.  :)

[bijoux]

I'll laugh the whole weekend over the fact that you looked up the size of brussel sprouts. Which are delicious, by the way.

[kismet]

I'll laugh the whole weekend over the fact that you looked up the size of brussel sprouts. Which are delicious, by the way.

It helps that I am at work and am actively avoiding paperwork. :)

 

But I do love brussel sprouts especially this time of year when you can get them roasted & in savory dishes. I had them in this Kale Salad over Halloween Weekend and am still raving about them.

 

But Cheetos - are sacred to me and cannot be attached to RP in any way shape or form :)

Edited November 14, 2015 by kismet

[dtissagirl]

Oh, hahaha, I actually hadn't realized it until just now, but -- I'm super allergic to Cheetos, so that comparison works for me.

[lemotomato]

Maybe she meant Cheeto Puffs? They're slightly more comparable to tater tots than regular Cheetos.

[tarotx]

I wrote this initially for the media section...

Sara has been Laurel's arc and not just LOT set up. Laurel would have one even if not for LOT. Alas I can't say it would be a better one one. Laurel didn't need to be the stupid to make it happen. That was a writers choice. Even with keeping the same structure I can think of some quick ways to make it less stupid. Laurel&Thea go to Nanda Parbat for Thea without a Sara mention. And definitely without Sara's body. Thea tells what's happening to her and both She&Laurel get angry at Malcolm for the murder advice. Asshat Malcolm sends his men to bring Sara's body to Nanda Parbat. Malcolm is for sure Sara will come back mostly pit with little Sara). He does it to horrify both Laurel&Nyssa and to show Thea what will happen to her if she feeds the Bloodlust. Thea, Laurel, Nyssa and Malcolm watch cazy Sara kill random LOA guys and become mangeable though still cray cray (and especially so when Thea is close by).

Laurel would look much better if not for the initial stupid even if nothing else changed. Though more can change for the Better. And we also should have got the Thea&Sara talk.

Oh well the writers always goes for the stupid with Laurel and that is always one oh the wrist things about the show. Imo.

[bijoux]

I am really over the team walking into warehouses or wherever. It always looks the same, it eats up screentime which could be used to let other scenes breathe and it makes them look like they're on a class trip. It's lame. Even last episode when Sara was there and look, there's our guidance counselor Dig with us following him like ducks in a line. Couldn't they have been in position already and communicating over the coms? Since that is what they were oing with Oliver and Felicity anyhow? 

[kismet]

Didn't you get the memo Bijoux? In season 4, they are a TEAM. Which means they can't split up at all, everything must be done together! There is no individuals on this team. I'm surprised they didn't force Dig to go along for the rescue mission in the end. I bet if they hadn't come up with the cheesy (but lovable) green brother line, they would have just had him tag-a-long to complete the buddy system. But to deliver the line, Dig had to stay back.

[bijoux]

I know they're telling me they're all a team of equals, but they're showing me that Laurel and Thea are still at the kiddie table for the big stuff. I.e. Darhk. Oliver clued Dig and Felicity in about Lance right away. There wasn't even a mention of him telling Laurel and Thea from Oliver's side. All we had was Lance saying he doesn't want Laurel to know. Not even an, "You sure?" from Oliver.

[quarks]

I know they're telling me they're all a team of equals, but they're showing me that Laurel and Thea are still at the kiddie table for the big stuff. I.e. Darhk. Oliver clued Dig and Felicity in about Lance right away. There wasn't even a mention of him telling Laurel and Thea from Oliver's side. All we had was Lance saying he doesn't want Laurel to know. Not even an, "You sure?" from Oliver.

 

Oliver and Diggle didn't even discuss leaving Laurel and Thea behind - it was a "We're not bringing Laurel and Thea." "Ok." Yes, some of this was because Thea had to go deal with her bloodlust plot, but Laurel had no other plot this week other than to remind us that Sara is still alive. Those two also apparently weren't consulted on the should Oliver infiltrate Damien Darhk's group, no or no? conversation.

[Guest]

I am really over the team walking into warehouses or wherever. It always looks the same, it eats up screentime which could be used to let other scenes breathe and it makes them look like they're on a class trip. It's lame. Even last episode when Sara was there and look, there's our guidance counselor Dig with us following him like ducks in a line. Couldn't they have been in position already and communicating over the coms? Since that is what they were oing with Oliver and Felicity anyhow? 

 

 

I know they're telling me they're all a team of equals, but they're showing me that Laurel and Thea are still at the kiddie table for the big stuff. I.e. Darhk. Oliver clued Dig and Felicity in about Lance right away. There wasn't even a mention of him telling Laurel and Thea from Oliver's side. All we had was Lance saying he doesn't want Laurel to know. Not even an, "You sure?" from Oliver.

 

 

Same. I really need them to stop with the 'whole team are equals' crap out in the field. Not only am I bored with seeing them out there at the same time - seriously, the scenes are really repetitive now - but I just don't believe it. I don't believe that Thea and Laurel are on the same level as Diggle and Oliver. 

 

And I'm getting increasingly annoyed at the lack of focus on Oliver out in the field. Almost every episode he sort of just stands and surveys all the stunts/action and when he does partake, he needs saving. That's ridiculous. This is the same guy who burst into a casino packed full of people in s1 and took down at least ten men on his own. I miss those days. 

[lemotomato]

All Green Arrow has done in the field this season is stand on roof with BC next to him so they can get their requisite "iconic" shot of the episode. Yaaaay comics!!

[Chasity]

And I'm getting increasingly annoyed at the lack of focus on Oliver out in the field. Almost every episode he sort of just stands and surveys all the stunts/action and when he does partake, he needs saving. That's ridiculous. This is the same guy who burst into a casino packed full of people in s1 and took down at least ten men on his own. I miss those days. 

I'm getting annoyed with this as well. It makes absolutely no sense to me that Thea and Laurel are getting 70-80% of the focus in fight scenes in almost every episode this season. I want to know whose decision it was to mostly focus on just Laurel and Thea when they're in the field and is it ever going to end?

Edited November 19, 2015 by Chasity

[EmilyBettFan]

I hope it will end. I like Thea but I find Laurel annoying. That scene where she says she's been spotted and then proceeds to take down what 6 ghosts? Lol yeah ok.

It took Thea a good 2-3 minutes to take down Andy. Laurel takes down 6 in less than a minute? I'm sorry but no.

Edited November 19, 2015 by EmilyBettFan