Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[kismet]

^^ Malcolm killing Sara made absolutely no sense. He was trying to hide from LOA and then purposely drew them to his doorstep. And his big reason was to set other stuff in motion. But what other stuff I have no idea, not sure he ever revealed it either. He supposedly loves both Thea & Oliver as his own children, but is willing to sacrifice them. If it was his big plan to take over the LOA, there had to be a better way. This is the man responsible for the Undertaking, and killing Sara with all the moving unpredictables was his big plan? The writers really dropped the ball in their planning/writing for MM's arc in s3.

 

I really kept on hoping he was secretly working with Ras or even DD, but it doesn't seem that was ever in the cards. But at least that would have made sense. Ras killing Sara makes absolute sense, it kills so many birds with one stone, or 3 arrows.

Edited August 14, 2015 by kismet

[Starfish35]

A whole lot of the season would have made a lot more sense if Malcolm hadn't been the one behind Sara's death.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Starfish35

[yellowfred]

To me, the worst part of it was how bad it made Oliver come off.  Protecting Malcolm and working with him to go after Ra's would have been a questionable enough decision if he was just responsible for the undertaking.  Doing the same thing after knowing that he brainwashed Thea into killing Sara (which he supposedly did specifically so that Oliver would have to go after Ra's) was really stupid and then helping him be the new Ra's was just gross.

[EmilyBettFan]

Sara had a clear vision of why she was being the canary. Her first appearance showed how she saved Roy from those thugs where he was saving that girl. Felicity said our masked blonde friend is taking down rapists.

She helped women and that was enough for me to like her right away.

Laurel is a lawyer yet we never saw how she didn't have a case that wasn't tied to the hood. So all her "wins" were really Oliver's wins.

[calliope1975]

Frankly, make it a half-brother, and I'd probably be totally neutral on the storyline.

 

I'm still bitter that they had a half-brother, longtime friend who was in on the secret, yet had valid reservations, and instead of milking that for years worth of drama, decided to kill him off instead. I still miss you, Tommy! I would have loved to have seen his reaction to the events of S3 and his dad taking over a centuries old evil hospitality organization, and his sister putting on a mask. 

[statsgirl]

I think it's telling that in AU fanfic, the #1 person to survive is Tommy followed by Sara and Moira.  Sebastian who?

[kismet]

I'm still bitter that they had a half-brother, longtime friend who was in on the secret, yet had valid reservations, and instead of milking that for years worth of drama, decided to kill him off instead. I still miss you, Tommy! I would have loved to have seen his reaction to the events of S3 and his dad taking over a centuries old evil hospitality organization, and his sister putting on a mask. 

S4a does seem a lot like we had all these great ideas a season or 2 ago that we killed off for plot & gotcha moments. ARROW, the redeux. Let's just recast them & bring back the stories we never should have killed off in the first place. Except the problem is, I will probably always want Tommy & Moira before I want any of these pseudo replacements. Sometimes substitutions work, but most of the time the original is always better. Tommy still lives in my head. I heard they were having creative problems on his new show ChicagoMed (not with him); and my first thought was GOOD - maybe that means he can come back to ARROW and they can find a way to bring him back between LP, Magic & LoT.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Two things I’m bitter about from season 3:  The handling of Felicity, and the handling of Olicity.  So, I’ll give you some background because I think what I’m about to say will not be a very popular opinion.  Going into season 3,  I was super psyched about the kiss, and there being only one woman for Oliver this year, and Felicity getting her own love interest (yay, we’d get to learn more about her).  Sigh.  But they just botched the shit out of everything in the third season, and I have no idea if I’m even going to continue watching this show anymore.

 

I HATED what they did to Felicity.  Rigging up that voice modulator to trick Quentin?  Awful.  Telling Laurel that she had a light inside her that Sara never did?  Terrible!  I hated the fact that she was dating a self-proclaimed stalker, I hated the stuff with the dress/necklace, I hated that her story became all about Ray.  And yes, worst of all, I hated all of the crying.  Sure, real people have emotions and cry, but coming from the character who was usually responsible for infusing a little bit of happiness into the show, it was too. fucking. much.  Sadly, Guggenheim, Felicity is not bulletproof.

 

I also hate the mess that they made of Olicity.  They took my # 1 ship and turned it into something I’m meh about now.  Didn’t even think that was possible.  We missed all of the good, fun parts of the relationship last season and got shitty angst instead.  I feel like we deserved a nice build up to the sex scene, and we didn’t get that (I mean, they were heading the right direction at the end of season 2, but then the third season blew that all to hell).  Reading MG’s interview about the love scene, it felt like “Well, we needed to fit it in somewhere before the season finale, so that was a good spot, I guess.”  Then the show threw the two together at the end of the season so we missed a ton of good relationship stuff AGAIN?  Ugh.

 

It probably sounds like I’m very angry, but I’m actually not.  I’m sad that this show was able to reduce two things I loved to two things I’m apathetic about.  Add in Laurel's increased presence, and nope, I just can't do it.  I’ve accidentally come across a few season 4 spoilers, but nothing I’ve seen has really peaked my interest, and that’s such a difference from this time last year.  Oh well, life goes on, and I’m sure I’ll find some show to obsess about next season, but damn, season three was a disaster.

[NumberCruncher]

At this point I'm choosing to block out most of S3. It has achieved X-Files S8 & S9 levels of suck in my mind. I'm starting S4 with a clean slate. Hopefully they've taken MG's keyboard away and WM doesn't let me down. I expect to be disappointed but maybe they'll surprise me.

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, I actually agree with most of your post, SonOfABiscuit, but months away from the show have made me feel more generous and I'm basically just wiping the slate clean. There's nothing to be done to change the fact that I dislike the way most things were handled in S3, and I doubt I will ever be as happy about and into the show as I was in S2 and the hiatus after, but that's okay. I'll be happy enough if I just don't feel rage-y every week, and if the characters I love are more in-character than I found them in S3. I think a lot of the late-season/hiatus interviews have come pretty close to an acknowledgement that things got screwed up in Season 3, and all I can do is hope that things are better in S4. It doesn't take much to turn me back around on things like this, so I'm ready to just start fresh.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm with you on everything, but especially the sex scene.  It's entirely possible she'd had sex with Ray like 12 hours before.  That's just kind of icky.  (I am NOT saying she's a slut; I'm saying there should be more than a few hours between sexual partners when there are serious feelings involved.)  Plus it was in this horrible situation in which they expected never to see each other again because he was going to chill as the new RAG (which also, what, Felicity, you thought he was going to happily be the head of the LOA? wow, such a lot of confidence you have in his inherent goodness).  I haven't watched it, heard it was hot, but even if it was filmed as full-on porn I would still hate everything about it.  HATE.

 

I'd also add that I hate that she happily jaunted off into the sunset with him with no recovery time from all the angst Oliver shoveled all over her, but I'm aware that I'm totally in the minority on that.

[NumberCruncher]

You're not in the minority on that, AyChihuahua. I've seen a lot of people say the same re: driving off into the sunset without any real discussion as to all the crap that happened between them. I, too, think that the Ray breakup, the Olicity sex, and the driving off into the sunset (and even the Olicity first date) happened way too fast, but so did most everything that happened in S3--well, except Laurel telling Quentin the truth which dragged too long. The vast majority of the storylines suffered from lack of development because MG was so in love with getting to his next "Gotcha!" moment that he didn't bother to write all of the stuff in between. This is where I'm hoping WM can reel him in a bit. In fact, she said something to that effect at SDCC (i.e. the show lost important character interaction).

[SonofaBiscuit]

The last episode or two of the season left a really bad taste in my mouth (one scene, in particular, still really bothers me, but I'm not about to rehash discussion on that).  I wasn't thrilled about Felicity and Oliver running off together because it didn't feel earned, and it couldn't fix all of the issues that they needed to have an actual discussion about.  I would have definitely preferred if the couple ended the season in a decent place, and season four was about rebuilding their relationship while transitioning from friends to lovers.  Sadly, because all complaints last season fell on MG's deaf ears, I have zero trust in the EPs to really turn things around.  I don't know how reliable Wendy Mericle is, but I do know that I trusted MG going into season 3, and that absolutely turned out to be a huge mistake on my part.  Fool me once, and all that.

[AyChihuahua]

The last episode or two of the season left a really bad taste in my mouth (one scene, in particular, still really bothers me, but I'm not about to rehash discussion on that).

Ooh, spill! There are tons of scenes in the finale that I hated (nice prayer over dying rapist/murderer of innocents/torturer, for example), which I actually thought was a fairly shitty episode of tv. To the extent I liked anything about it, it was pretty much that the Season of Shite was OVER.

[wonderwall]

My question is, since KL isn't even in the premier, it's safe to say she left Starling after the finale...

 

...So I gotta ask, who the hell has been training Laurel the past 5 months? What, did she just train with Nyssa for 2 months and then magically become a skilled fighter by the beginning of S4 (considering she has no learning curve now)?

 

And who in the world has Thea been training with now that Malcolm is out of the picture?

 

This annoys me greatly.

[Chaser]

She doesn't need training anymore. She's Because Comics COUGH I mean Black Canary MY BAD.

 

I'm assuming Thea and Laurel are picking things up from Diggle. Diggle and Laurel bonding. Bitter. Bitter. Bitter.

[Guest]

My question is, since KL isn't even in the premier, it's safe to say she left Starling after the finale...

 

...So I gotta ask, who the hell has been training Laurel the past 5 months? What, did she just train with Nyssa for 2 months and then magically become a skilled fighter by the beginning of S4 (considering she has no learning curve now)?

 

And who in the world has Thea been training with now that Malcolm is out of the picture?

 

This annoys me greatly.

 

Well, Nyssa could have been back and forth between NP and Starling City. It's basically only five minutes away, it seems. Haha. But I think we're just supposed to assume that Diggle has been training with her, and maybe Thea because she seemed to be further on in her training than Laurel was. Or maybe she doesn't need training anymore because she's just that amazing! LOL. Okay, show. 

 

Not that I wanted to see Laurel fall on her ass anymore, please no. But I don't believe she'd be fully competent after five months. Improved, for sure. But if they play it like she's just as good as Oliver I will call bullshit. Naw, son.

[wonderwall]

Diggle has better things to do than to train two novices. He has a family and fights crime... -_- Somewhere in there Diggle has to eat, sleep, use the facilities, and train himself because training novices isn't the same. 

[Chaser]

Maybe Thea trains Laurel

[dtissagirl]

YouTube can teach anyone anything.

[wonderwall]

 

Sometimes I feel like the writers don't even want to bother trying with LLs arc. They just don't want a learning curve because they're so done with her and don't want to focus on writing her arc. 

Edited August 29, 2015 by wonderwall

[Chaser]

YouTube can teach anyone anything.

There is probably an App for that

[Sakura12]

What is this training thing you speak of? Because Comics doesn't need that. She's a full fledged super hero she's surpassed Oliver by going by her comic book title. 

 

Because Comics just needs to show up with her matching nails and lips and she's all set to take down any highly trained big bad. 

 

 

Arrows steps to becoming a super hero in just a few short months.

 

Step 1: Get a costume or a metal suit first. Fashion is the most important part of being a hero.

Step 2: Go fight crime without any training whatsoever and get your ass kicked.

Step 3. Go out to fight crime again because perseverance is must for an idiot in a suit.

Step 4: Proudly call yourself a hero, because giant egos work for sports stars.

Step 5: Get told to get some training by actual trained super heroes.

Step 6: Take 2 boxing lessons and about 4 or so martial arts lessons from a master ninja.

Step 7: You are a full fledged super hero, get out there be the hero you were meant to be!

Edited August 29, 2015 by Sakura12

[Guest]

Diggle has better things to do than to train two novices. He has a family and fights crime... -_- Somewhere in there Diggle has to eat, sleep, use the facilities, and train himself because training novices isn't the same. 

 

LOL. Logically, of course. This is very true. But this is the same show that had Laurel defeat members of the LOA. Logic doesn't exist. LMAO.

[kismet]

She doesn't need training anymore. She's Because Comics COUGH I mean Black Canary MY BAD.

 

I'm assuming Thea and Laurel are picking things up from Diggle. Diggle and Laurel bonding. Bitter. Bitter. Bitter.

  

Group training sessions. Yay! :-\ Only problem with that is Diggle is not a trained martial artist, so how she's gonna live up to her comic book legendary martial arts skills is gonna be questionable. I really wonder what they are gonna have her stunt double do... I bet she is just gonna fall in the pit & get magical super skillz. After all, whatever Sara gets to do, Laurel gets to do. Wouldn't wanna stop their life long one-up game.

 

Sometimes I feel like the writers don't even want to bother trying with LLs arc. They just don't want a learning curve because they're so done with her and don't want to focus on writing on her arc.

That gif is the best!

Yeah, I think they are over it. Whatever seems to be the common feeling when it comes to LL/BC arc at this point.

[wonderwall]

That gif is the best!

Yeah, I think they are over it. Whatever seems to be the common feeling when it comes to LL/BC arc at this point.

It also hurts for LL that WM usually thinks of her as an afterthought. Just look at the interviews she's done. I never sense any enthusiasm from her when she's talking about her.

 

My all time favorite though:

 

[manbearpig]

Maybe season three has just really killed my enthusiasm for the show, but I actually think their lack of interest in Laurel is going to be good for her character in the long run, because while they ignore her they'll be ruining everyone else with more focus and out of character moments. 

[EmilyBettFan]

She never uses her body to act. She just stands there in each scene she has with everyone like a statue.

Edited August 30, 2015 by EmilyBettFan

[HighwayFlower]

I want to love Arrow... But Because Comics (LOVE THAT) makes me so irritated in any scene she is in that is hard. I FF as much of her as I can, but sometimes I have to watch to know what's going on. I only half watched S3 because of how much she annoyed me, and I'm only watching S4 to see Sara.

[pootlus]

That gif is hilarious. I'd like to give KC the benefit of the doubt and say that she didn't realise she was in shot, but in that case why did the director not tell her and re-shoot?

 

If they seriously couldn't get her to not stand like a robot it just adds more fuel to the fire that they'd be better of spending her salary on something useful.

[Guest]

In all fairness to KC in that particular gif, what else was she supposed to do but stand there? Do a little jig or something? LOL no.

[Sakura12]

I want to love Arrow... But Because Comics (LOVE THAT) makes me so irritated in any scene she is in that is hard. I FF as much of her as I can, but sometimes I have to watch to know what's going on. I only half watched S3 because of how much she annoyed me, and I'm only watching S4 to see Sara.

 

That's how it is for me too. I want to enjoy Arrow, but I have an irrational hatred of Because Comics and can't watch any scene she's in. I'm going to watch when Sara's on even though I know Because Comic being there is going to ruin my enjoyment of the Sara scenes. 

[pootlus]

In all fairness to KC in that particular gif, what else was she supposed to do but stand there? Do a little jig or something? LOL no.

 

Laurel was feeling plenty of things in that scene, all of which could be easily expressed through body language - physical pain, anger, stubbornness.  She could be holding her side (or wherever she was injured, I've repressed the little of S3 I watched), clenched fists, folded arms, tense posture.

[Sakura12]

Most of the other actors are able to do small things when they are in the shot but the cameras not focused on them. Like the scene where Oliver and Felicity were having a meaningful conversation, we can see Diggle and Sara in the background laughing. They weren't just standing there like robots waiting to be powered on. It couldn't really be part of the scene since we never found out what they were talking about. I think they just added it to have something to do while being in the shot. 

[statsgirl]

But wouldn't someone who is a Method actor be more likely to be doing things in the background than someone who just acts the role?  SA talks about PB getting ready for Quentin's scene with Oliver, cursing Oliver in the wings while he warms up.

 

One of the things I've noticed about EBR is that she tends to add a lot of body movements to her dialogue:  her head cocked to one side in 1x03 showing that she's not buying any of Oliver's b.s.; the double nod when she says 'yes' to the date in 3x01.  KC doesn't do much of that, her thinking is internal rather than external which would make it more apparent to a viewer.  I can understand that she does that because I do it too, I don't have many physical expressions unlike I really work to produce them, but it does make it harder for a viewer to understand Laurel's thinking.

[Guest]

Laurel was feeling plenty of things in that scene, all of which could be easily expressed through body language - physical pain, anger, stubbornness.  She could be holding her side (or wherever she was injured, I've repressed the little of S3 I watched), clenched fists, folded arms, tense posture.

 

I mean, I'm no fan of Laurel and I agree to an extent but I don't know how much could have been translated in so short a shot, if I remember correctly. 

[HighwayFlower]

Problem is, she just stands there in most of her scenes. It's not a one time occurrence

[Guest]

Problem is, she just stands there in most of her scenes. It's not a one time occurrence

 

I guess I just don't notice because I tune her out most of the time. Someone posted a video recently from one of the episodes in s3 where she was just standing in the background and I never even noticed it. So I'm not denying that she does do that but I just think in some scenes what else can she do, I guess. 

[EmilyBettFan]

Exactly. Like the whole scene of "you had a chance to kill MM and you didn't?!?" Was completely robotic.

[icandigit]

When I started watching the show Oliver and Felicity were competent.Now their level of ability to perform their duties depends on the plot. I can't take it anymore. What makes a better story is for characters to be at the height of their abilities and have a villian challenge that in someway. I don't want to handwave things like the lair not being secure yet Felicty, Oliver and Digg enough of a skillset to keep that from happening. There are probably other examples of this too.

 

Also, Oliver can be a stubborn dumb ass, but not so much that he doesn't eventually listen to the people around him. He chose them (well not Laurel) for a reason. From what we know of Oliver's background he can't be as stupid as they try to make him out to be. Atleast in the areas of being a tactician, military type stuff, etc. One minute he's wise enough to train Barry the next minute he can't tie his own shoes.

 

I hope I can come back and enjoy this show, but I feel like I've been burned too badly. I probably wouldn't care too much. Show's have off seasons. But, unfortunately I can't shake of the arrogance and stankness MG displayed to fans during the season. Especially, since people were asking legitimate questions about what was happening on the show. That's the real turnoff for me.

[AyChihuahua]

Also, Oliver can be a stubborn dumb ass, but not so much that he doesn't eventually listen to the people around him. He chose them (well not Laurel) for a reason. From what we know of Oliver's background he can't be as stupid as they try to make him out to be. Atleast in the areas of being a tactician, military type stuff, etc. One minute he's wise enough to train Barry the next minute he can't tie his own shoes.

I think they're not good enough writers to write consistently intelligent and competent characters. That takes a lot more intelligence and creativity than just making the characters dumb to further the plot. S3 Oliver in particular was dumb as a rock. It was inconsistent with his S1/S2 characterization, but if he'd had two brain cells, the season-long plot would have been short-circuited in The Magician. The writers/EPs could have gotten to most of the same places (hopefully with far better pacing) without him being unbearably stupid, but it would have been more difficult, and probably would have required Malcolm's (hopefully painful) death. (As an aside, they need to stop making plot/casting decisions based on how they feel about the actors. I get that they like JB on a personal level, but keeping MM around has done nothing but screw up the show, because Oliver should JUST KILL HIM ALREADY. Or at the very least, hand him over to the justice system and see how much evil plotting he can get up to with the FBI, Interpol, etc., after him.)

[kismet]

Going to the MM thread...

 

I think they're not good enough writers to write consistently intelligent and competent characters. That takes a lot more intelligence and creativity than just making the characters dumb to further the plot. S3 Oliver in particular was dumb as a rock. It was inconsistent with his S1/S2 characterization, but if he'd had two brain cells, the season-long plot would have been short-circuited in The Magician. The writers/EPs could have gotten to most of the same places (hopefully with far better pacing) without him being unbearably stupid, but it would have been more difficult, and probably would have required Malcolm's (hopefully painful) death. (As an aside, they need to stop making plot/casting decisions based on how they feel about the actors. I get that they like JB on a personal level, but keeping MM around has done nothing but screw up the show, because Oliver should JUST KILL HIM ALREADY. Or at the very least, hand him over to the justice system and see how much evil plotting he can get up to with the FBI, Interpol, etc., after him.)

[pootlus]

Oh god yeah don't get me started on how Merlyn's still alive.  I get that the showrunners love JB, I mean I love the guy too, but that shouldn't mean the show getting fucked over tying itself in knots trying to persuade me that Merlyn gets to live after all the shit he's pulled.

 

I guess "he has a souuuuuul now" is in operation?

Edited August 30, 2015 by pootlus

[kismet]

Sorry its a side-effect of a fic i'm reading... but I am bitter that OQ was not as shirtless in s3 as he was in s1-2.

 

It made me realize that one of the reasons I was bitter was that it made it easier for the audiences to forget just how much suffering & torturing OQ underwent on the "island" for 5 years both physically & emotionally. It doesn't justify his actions, but it explains some of his behaviors & choices. Then when he gets compared to Barry, who literally became a superhero because of 1 night of bad luck it really irritates me. Yes Barry lost his mother, but that is not why he is all of the sudden the Flash. I've never been in a coma, they don't seem to be pleasant - but it certainly does not compare to the brutality that OQ had to undergo to become who he is and still manage to overcome that darkness. Nevermind, the insta-suffering they tried to imply with LL & RP.

 

IDK, I guess I cared more about his shirtlessness than for just the aesthetic reasons that make OQ nice to look at. Those scars, markings & tattoos (esp when we found out some were forced on him) always reminded me of how bad things had been for OQ and in turn made me respect him more in the present for having survived that and still wanting to be a better person. Honestly, I know how hard it must be for SA to keep his physique (& I appreciate it), but I would have taken even a slightly flabby shirtless OQ at times - just to remind people of what he suffered. But then again, those scars probably would have underminded all of their insta-hero masked journeys who really didn't have to suffer as much to get their mantels.

[EmilyBettFan]

I like the Flash but I agree with you. They are all insta heroes and Oliver is the real deal.

Diggle is a hero based on his tours in war and his work with Oliver. Felicity is a hero based on how many times she's risked her own life to find the people she cares for and her skills.

That's why I will never like Laurel, or how Barry thinks he can make Oliver feel bad for being a vigilante. It really irked me that Barry thought he had the right to compare losses. Yeah his mother was murdered. That is hard as a little boy. But, he also had a good upbringing by Joe because Barry's father is in jail. But, Oliver had to survive Lian Yu, Hong Kong, the Bratva and God knows what else. He's watched his dad commit suicide, his mom dying brutally by Slade Wilson. He's watched Sara die how many times. Tommy died in his arms and don't get me started on how he saw his sister clinging to life in their loft. It just doesn't really compare. He's had to see Felicity being kidnapped and he's seen Diggle in pain.

I just never was on Barry's side when they tried to make him on par with what Oliver's has been through.

Edited September 4, 2015 by EmilyBettFan

[kismet]

I like the Flash but I agree with you. They are all insta heroes and Oliver is the real deal.

Diggle is a hero based on his tours in war and his work with Oliver. Felicity is a hero based on how many times she's risked her own life to find the people she cares for and her skills.

That's why I will never like Laurel, or how Barry thinks he can make Oliver feel bad for being a vigilante. It really irked me that Barry thought he had the right to compare losses. Yeah his mother was murdered. That is hard as a little boy. But, he also had a good upbringing by Joe because Barry's father is in jail. But, Oliver had to survive Lian Yu, Hong Kong, the Bratva and God knows what else. He's watched his dad commit suicide, his mom dying brutally by Slade Wilson. He's watched Sara die how many times. Tommy died in his arms and don't get me started on how he saw his sister clinging to life in their loft. It just doesn't really compare. He's had to see Felicity being kidnapped and he's seen Diggle in pain.

I just never was on Barry's side when they tried to make him on par with what Oliver's has been through.

Diggle is most definitely a hero. As is Felicity. They have both proven through actions on ARROW or before they joined TA that they are willing to do heroic things at personal cost/sacrifice to themselves. My comments were never really meant for them, since the show barely acknowledges their heroism (which is a whole other level of bitterness). It was primarily for LL & RP, whom were handed the title without a whole lot of suffering. The losses they suffered were on par with a good % of people, esp residents of SC. I respect that they want to help people, but make them at least make them graduate hero bootcamp before just handing them the title. They each just made a suit & thought they were ready for their ticker tape parade.

 

Barry is an interesting case. Because I don't think he considers himself as much of hero, as the people around him constantly calling him a hero annoyed me. He wants to do heroic things, but I think he struggles with how to accomplish that while still maintaining his innocence. By the end of the season, BA clearly lost his way with the whole vortex to save his mother at the cost of everyone else's life. There was a bromance moment in the first crossover where BA sees how broken OQ really is, and I think that changed the way he talked about himself & OQ. Before that I don't BA fully understood that OQ was truly damaged and more than just a little broody. I think the 2 of them are good for each other. Unfortunately, the writers then made every other character on FLASH proclaim BA's hero status & OQ's less than heroic path. So my frustration is less with BA and more with everyone else on the FLASH. But I wonder what will happen from the fallout of BA's choices in the s1 finale.

[statsgirl]

It seems like the EPs just got too enamoured of their costumed hero toys and started building them left and right.

 

It's like Oliver was this hand carved, hand-painted creation, and then Barry was machine made but hand-painted, and then Laurel, Ray and Thea were mass produced in China so they would have a full set to play with  I hate to think what the new LoT characters are going to be like.

 

And of course Diggle and Felicity don't count because they don't have a shiny new suit or a Canary crew so clearly they're not heroes.

[dtissagirl]

The suits used to be about practicality, with minor nods to the characters' comic book looks, and now they're all about ~style~.

 

And the style is "hot mess".

[AyChihuahua]

Sorry its a side-effect of a fic i'm reading... but I am bitter that OQ was not as shirtless in s3 as he was in s1-2.

...

IDK, I guess I cared more about his shirtlessness than for just the aesthetic reasons that make OQ nice to look at. Those scars, markings & tattoos (esp when we found out some were forced on him) always reminded me of how bad things had been for OQ and in turn made me respect him more in the present for having survived that and still wanting to be a better person. Honestly, I know how hard it must be for SA to keep his physique (& I appreciate it), but I would have taken even a slightly flabby shirtless OQ at times - just to remind people of what he suffered. But then again, those scars probably would have underminded all of their insta-hero masked journeys who really didn't have to suffer as much to get their mantels.

I came up with a fairly reasonable (I think) fanwank that he was shirtless a lot less because he was being respectful of Felicity.  It would have been pretty crappy for him to keep showing her the goods he'd told her she couldn't have (because she was a distraction, that will never not be cruel).  He got shirtless again in 3.17 because by then I think he was rethinking his decision to ditch her.  I often wonder, if RAG and Merlyn had just left them alone, if he would have tried to steal her away from Ray and be with her.  I rather think he would have.

 

Also, I don't want him to be flabby.  Not even so much because hey, hot cut dudes are hot, but because his physique really helps me suspend disbelief.  SA's so athletic and built that I can almost believe Oliver is actually doing these things.  I know it's a lot to expect of an actor, but I do hope he stays built. 

[kismet]

I came up with a fairly reasonable (I think) fanwank that he was shirtless a lot less because he was being respectful of Felicity.  It would have been pretty crappy for him to keep showing her the goods he'd told her she couldn't have (because she was a distraction, that will never not be cruel).  He got shirtless again in 3.17 because by then I think he was rethinking his decision to ditch her.  I often wonder, if RAG and Merlyn had just left them alone, if he would have tried to steal her away from Ray and be with her.  I rather think he would have.

 

Also, I don't want him to be flabby.  Not even so much because hey, hot cut dudes are hot, but because his physique really helps me suspend disbelief.  SA's so athletic and built that I can almost believe Oliver is actually doing these things.  I know it's a lot to expect of an actor, but I do hope he stays built. 

Oh no, I'm not asking or wanting him flabby... I just don't expect the cutness we saw in s1. And I totally get that SA wants to look good when he takes he shirt off, so even if I'm not as concerned with how his body looks he might be. Frankly, it would take a lot of non-exercise & poor choices to make SA not look good. That boy could probably rock a mini beer gut & still look good. I do appreciate the effort he puts in to maintain his physique because it does make the character/stunts more believable since you know he can do most of the stuff (esp if they didn't have contracts & safety clauses).

 

I appreciate your fanwank. It completely makes sense in the story. I guess I just missed seeing the scars at points, esp when LL, RP & Flash crew would get all high & mighty on their superhero mantels. I just wanted him to lift up his shirt & be like ~ really? tell me again how you suffered & what you went through. Where exactly did you get your training? It's why I found the OQ/SL/Dig comparison of scars with FS feeling a little left out in s2 so realistic & charming. You understood that the people had earned their skills & reputation. Likewise, I can't remember now, but I'm pretty sure nobody saw the new brand Ras made. Part of me wished they had shown it to the SC crew. He wasn't just in NP sipping mai tais & talking candles with Ras. He actually was being tortured & stuck on a undercover mission to save the city. So he did shitty things, but I think his team also forgot that a lot of shitty things were both done to him & happening out of his control.

 

If Ras & MM had minded their own business in s3b, there never would have been a R/F. He would have come back from the dead & straight into FS's bed. RP never stood a chance once OQ stepped back into the game. FS just about said that in 317. That man would have fiercely wooed FS back, RP or no RP.