All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[ahrtee]

Please don't go back into lurk mode, I have enjoyed your comments and observations.

Thanks, and I'll keep reading (and open my big mouth when I feel it's important.)

 

I just want to say something here, without intending to insult anyone:  there does seem to be a bit of an "old boys (or girls) club" feel about this site--not a mean-girls-type clique, but just a group of friends who've obviously gotten to know each other well over the years, and newbies, while accepted, are always on the outside.  For those of us who are more on the insecure side, it makes joining in a little off-putting.  I'm here for discussions and I *want* to hear other sides (and can talk forever to support my own!) but I tend to withdraw if I feel I'm being dismissed or not taken seriously.  Sorry...my issues.  

[catrox14]

If it makes you feel any better I think most of us have only been members for a couple of years. I found refuge here after  TWoP went defunct. Although I was on the verge of being banned by TWoP because of my dislike of Laurel Lance on the Arrow forum.

 

Many have come along in drips and drabs. I think we just found a cool place to talk about the show. Check out the Small Talk thread . We've kind of gotten to know each other there a bit more. :)

 

I also yak on the Arrow, Sleepy Hollow and The Walking Dead forums quite a bit.

[Demented Daisy]

Thanks, and I'll keep reading (and open my big mouth when I feel it's important.)

 

I just want to say something here, without intending to insult anyone:  there does seem to be a bit of an "old boys (or girls) club" feel about this site--not a mean-girls-type clique, but just a group of friends who've obviously gotten to know each other well over the years, and newbies, while accepted, are always on the outside.  For those of us who are more on the insecure side, it makes joining in a little off-putting.  I'm here for discussions and I *want* to hear other sides (and can talk forever to support my own!) but I tend to withdraw if I feel I'm being dismissed or not taken seriously.  Sorry...my issues.  

 

No offense to you, either, but when you post things like this:

 

Don't really feel like going back through years of the whole site just to find out if something's already been settled.

 

It's frustrating for me -- especially when someone points you to a specific thread.  It seems as if you don't care about what we've said on the subject.

 

When I asked what difference it makes, why it's important to you that Dean's time in Hell was worse than Sam's, that was a genuine question.  I was not being snarky or facetious.  When I am, you will see a ;-).

[Binns]

Just saw this....

http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/the-cw-renews-11-series-slate-including-the-100-supernatural-1201728203/

[catrox14]

Can you post that in the ratings and media thread too?

 

Also YIPPEE!!!!!

[Binns]

Sure!

[DittyDotDot]

Thanks, and I'll keep reading (and open my big mouth when I feel it's important.)

 

I just want to say something here, without intending to insult anyone:  there does seem to be a bit of an "old boys (or girls) club" feel about this site--not a mean-girls-type clique, but just a group of friends who've obviously gotten to know each other well over the years, and newbies, while accepted, are always on the outside.  For those of us who are more on the insecure side, it makes joining in a little off-putting.  I'm here for discussions and I *want* to hear other sides (and can talk forever to support my own!) but I tend to withdraw if I feel I'm being dismissed or not taken seriously.  Sorry...my issues.  

 

You know, all I can think to say is: Jump in, the water's warm. The worst that can happen is someone disagrees with you. 

 

However, I was genuinely surprised to hear you say you've never heard anyone ever question the issue and just pointing you to a place where you might find that discussion. I was not, in any way, suggesting you shouldn't post your own thoughts on the subject or that the subject should be off the table now. People are going to talk about what's on their mind and, from time to time, they're going to be thoughts that have been formulated previously. It's the nature of the universe and I'm cool with that.

[ahrtee]

When I asked what difference it makes, why it's important to you that Dean's time in Hell was worse than Sam's, that was a genuine question.  I was not being snarky or facetious.  When I am, you will see a ;-).I t

I thought this was a place intended to discuss opinions.  "What difference does it make" can apply to everything here, and kind of makes the whole site irrelevant. 

[Demented Daisy]

I thought this was a place intended to discuss opinions.  "What difference does it make" can apply to everything here, and kind of makes the whole site irrelevant. 

 

Which is why I clarified, in case there was a misunderstanding.

 

At no time have I suggested you not express an opinion.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

 

This thread has veered off topic quite a bit. We're fine with that in small doses, but can we please get back to the subject at hand now.

 

Thanks.

[SueB]

My favorite comparisons of Hell time: Dean was in GenPop, Sam was in Solitary. Each are torture in their own way. Worse is a function of how the person views the world.

Edited March 12, 2016 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

Extended solitary is considered actual torture, normal imprisonment not so much so to me that basically is the Disneyland comparism. 

 

Also, Dean doesn`t fit GenPop either, that would be the random run-of-the-mill-souls being turned into demons. He was a special project of a Master Torturer. And his most basic torture was not even the infliction of pain in and of itself but the way out presented to him each day. In his mind that would put the onus on him as he could stop it if he "wanted". It makes the person not realize that they are still a victim.    

[mertensia]

My headcanon is that they both suffered but that Dean-who said he remembered everything- has to go through eternity knowing that he enjoyed torturing people. The very opposite of hunting things and saving people. What worse can there be for him?

Sam might have suffered for longer but did nothing in the Cage that made him say " you shouldn't have rescued me".

[SueB]

Extended solitary is considered actual torture, normal imprisonment not so much so to me that basically is the Disneyland comparism.

Also, Dean doesn`t fit GenPop either, that would be the random run-of-the-mill-souls being turned into demons. He was a special project of a Master Torturer. And his most basic torture was not even the infliction of pain in and of itself but the way out presented to him each day. In his mind that would put the onus on him as he could stop it if he "wanted". It makes the person not realize that they are still a victim.

Please do not suggest I said Dean's time was like Disneyland. I find that comparison offensive and with ZERO support in the canon of the show

I get your perspective is different than mine. But lumping my words in with another of your assertions (which I find completely inaccurate) is something I request you not do.

Dean's time in Hell was horrible. Sam's time in Hell was horrible.

[Aeryn13]

 

I find that comparison offensive and with ZERO support in the canon of the show

 

They had Dean in the show say "your time in hell will make mine look like Disneyland" so that is a direct quote from the writer`s mouth, not something I made up. I was stark-raving mad they put that in like that in the show, one of a million reasons the Season 5 Finale goes down like ass with me. 

Edited March 12, 2016 by Aeryn13

[SueB]

But it wasn't a RELIABLE comparison. First, it was from Dean (who also thinks the Lindbergh baby is 'my bad'). Second, the imagery, Dean's rears in Yellow fever, the things Alastair said. The things we saw Alastair say. And when Dean was honestly acknowledging what happened. These are all a compendium of 'writer statements' that consistently show it was far from Disneyland.

Saying this is how the writers think is simplistic at best.

[Aeryn13]

At the point Dean said it any play on Dean`s hell was over and done with and we had moved on to the upcoming greatest saintly sacrifice in the history of sainthood. It`s their usual M.O. and anything since then has not changed my mind. I bet if you asked Dabb why Dean going back to hell was not referenced  one iota in the mid-Season Opener he wrote, he would go "Dean went to hell? Are you sure? Huh." 

 

So, yes, I do think that is exactly what the writers wanted to get across. And I do not think I`m some kind of simpleton for believing it.

[SueB]

I'm stopping this conversation. There's nothing fruitful here. And I apologize for imply you were a simpleton.

[catrox14]

Respectfully, SueB, I'm not following your point here with Dean being an unreliable narrator.

 

Sure Dean lied about his experience because he didn't see the point in telling it because no one would understand it and he couldn't make anyone understand. That's his prerogative as the person who experienced the torture.

 

We learn the extent of the torture which included mental, emotional, physical (likely sexual abuse) It was a literal 40 year cycle of of 24/7 torture, death, resurrection until he couldn't take it anymore and  tortured others, followed by 10 more years of I suspect the same cycle with the added component of Dean now torturing others and apparently 'liking" it.   And then it GOT WORSE when we learn from Alastair that Dean jump-started the Apocalypse because he tortured others.

 

Dean, the protagonist himself. told the story to the other protagonist, Sam, who accepts it as the truth and the story is confirmed by Anna, Alastair, Uriel, Cas.  To me the narrative is saying that Dean's Hell experience is he worst thing that happened to either brother to that point in time. And Dean's suffering in Hell was because he made a sacrifice to save Sam's life. Yes it was a deal with the devil but it was a sacrifice none the less.

 

Once we get to the closure of Sam's 5 year arc as the Chosen One, the audience must be set up to worry for and fear for  Sam more than they ever worried about any character in the show. They need to drive home the point that what Sam is going to do will be the ultimate sacrifice for humanity and that he will suffer greatly for it. The easiest and most effective way to communicate that message is to have the person who went through the greatest suffering prior to that, minimize his own experience. 

 

That does not in any way make Dean an unreliable narrator. Not about that point. IMO. 

Edited March 12, 2016 by catrox14

[Wynterwolf]

 The easiest and most effective way to communicate that message is to have the person who went through the greatest suffering prior to that, minimize his own experience. 

 

That does not in any way make Dean an unreliable narrator. Not about that point. IMO. 

 

catrox, if you believe that he was minimizing his own experience, to me that is basically the definition of an "unreliable narrator".  Regardless of what Dean's experience was, he wanted to validate the risk to Sam.  But, since this is about personal experiences of individuals, it's basically comparing apples and pop tarts... there is no objective basis for comparing them.  

Edited March 12, 2016 by Wynterwolf

[catrox14]

FTR we are all wrong on the quote...it was a tour through Graceland. Not a trip to Disneyland.

 

catrox, if you believe that he was minimizing his own experience, to me that is basically the definition of an "unreliable narrator".  Regardless of what Dean's experience was, he wanted to validate the risk to Sam.  But, since this is about personal experiences of individuals, it's basically comparing apples and pop tarts... there is no objective basis for comparing them.  

 

The door was opened for comparisons once the show had Dean make the comparison himself. 

 

 

DEAN: Sam, I got a bad feeling about this.

    SAM: Well, you'd be nuts to have a good feeling about it.
    DEAN: You know what I mean. Detroit. He always said he'd jump your bones in Detroit. Here we are.

    SAM: Here we are.
    DEAN: Maybe this is him rolling out the red carpet, you know? Maybe he knows something that we don't.

    SAM: Dean, I'm sure he knows a buttload we don't. We just got to hope he doesn't know about the rings. Hey, um... on the subject, there's something I got to talk to you about.
    DEAN: What?

    SAM: This thing goes our way and I...Triple Lindy into that box... y-you know I'm not coming back.
    DEAN: Yeah, I'm aware.

    SAM: So you got to promise me something.
    DEAN: Okay. Yeah. Anything.

    SAM: You got to promise not to try to bring me back.
    DEAN: What? No, I didn't sign up for that.

    SAM: Dean --

    DEAN: Your Hell is gonna make my tour look like Graceland. You want me just to sit by and do nothing?

    SAM: Once the Cage is shut, you can't go poking at it, Dean. It's too risky.
    DEAN: No, no, no, no, no. As if I'm just gonna let you rot in there.

    SAM: Yeah, you are. You don't have a choice.
    DEAN: You can't ask me to do this.

    SAM: I'm sorry, Dean. You have to.

 

I have tired repeatedly to understand what purpose it served to have Dean say those words and all I can come up with is that the show is telling me that I am to understand that Sam's experience will be worse than Dean's because it's being said by the man who was in Hell for 40 years. That to me makes Dean a more reliable narrator than anyone else in this situation.

 

What is Dean's motivation to say that?

 

He's not trying to change Sam's mind because the decision was made and Dean agreed. Dean was worried about things going sideways but he wasn't trying to frighten him into not doing it.

 

Nor is it a comfort to Sam and Dean didn't say it to be a dick.

 

It's framed around Sam making Dean promise to not look for him and to go live an apple pie life. It's reinforcing that Sam is 100% destined for a fate worse than Dean in the past and in the future. That's how it seems to me.

[MysteryGuest]

Dean is always going to minimize everything that happens to him when it compares to what Sam has or might go through.  There is nothing he wouldn't do for his brother.  No pain he wouldn't take on, no torture he wouldn't endure...nothing, if it meant that Sam would be spared.  So in that context, I agree that he's an unreliable narrator.  

[Demented Daisy]

What is Dean's motivation to say that?

 

He's not trying to change Sam's mind because the decision was made and Dean agreed. Dean was worried about things going sideways but he wasn't trying to frighten him into not doing it.

 

Nor is it a comfort to Sam and Dean didn't say it to be a dick.

 

It's framed around Sam making Dean promise to not look for him and to go live an apple pie life. It's reinforcing that Sam is 100% destined for a fate worse than Dean in the past and in the future. That's how it seems to me.

 

Standard disclaimers, IMO, mileage varies, blah blah blah.

 

Before Dean went to Hell, IIRC, he tried to extract a promise from Sam not to try to save Dean.  That it was too dangerous.  Sam is doing the same here and Dean is explaining why he can't keep the promise that he tried to get Sam to make.  He knows how bad Hell is going to be for Sam and he can't just live a normal life, knowing how badly Sam is being tortured in Hell.  He has to try to save his brother.  Nothing would ever change that.  It's not about Sam at all; it's about Dean.

 

I think that Dean genuinely believes that Sam's time in Hell will be worse.  Dean knows what he (Dean) endured in Hell; he can only imagine what will happen to Sam.  And our imagination is often so much worse than reality.  I can't imagine what he thought Hell would be like for Sam.

[Omegamom]

Well, amongst other things, Dean and Sam assume Sam was going to be in there with Lucifer for eternity. For another, everyone thinks Lucifer is the Big Bad to end all Big Bads, so there's an unstated assumption that if Alastair was bad, Lucifer would be that much worse.

But in the end, two different Hells. Like Heaven, everyone experiences it differently, I think.

Yeah, I'd have liked the show writers to acknowledge that Dean was in Hell before and it broke him and he's gotta have some response to going back there. But, who knows? Maybe we'll get that acknowledgement in the next few seasons. Maybe we won't. If it serves the purpose of angst, there's more likelihood the writers'll mention it. I'm not betting on it.

[DittyDotDot]

Remember, Dean makes this comment before Sam actually threw himself in that hole. So, I think Dean was just assuming it would be worse for Sam in Hell mostly because they thought Sam would be stuck in a cage with two revengeful angels for eternity. Dean was saved after four months. So to Dean, 4 months of torture compared to an eternity of it probably did seem like a turn through Graceland in comparison.  

 

I don't recall the show ever saying that what happened to Sam was worse than what happened to Dean after he was resurrected, Nor did I ever consider the show was saying Dean didn't suffer horribly in Hell. That doesn't mean it's better or worse, but just different than the experience Sam had. 

 

ETA: or what the demented one or Omegamom said...

Edited March 12, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Wynterwolf]

I have tired repeatedly to understand what purpose it served to have Dean say those words and all I can come up with is that the show is telling me that I am to understand that Sam's experience will be worse than Dean's because it's being said by the man who was in Hell for 40 years. That to me makes Dean a more reliable narrator than anyone else in this situation.

 

What is Dean's motivation to say that?

 

He's not trying to change Sam's mind because the decision was made and Dean agreed. Dean was worried about things going sideways but he wasn't trying to frighten him into not doing it.

 

Nor is it a comfort to Sam and Dean didn't say it to be a dick.

 

It's framed around Sam making Dean promise to not look for him and to go live an apple pie life. It's reinforcing that Sam is 100% destined for a fate worse than Dean in the past and in the future. That's how it seems to me.

 

My sense was that it was solely to illustrate Dean's desperate frame of mind.  And, as MysteryGuest pointed out, a reiteration of a consistent character element of Dean's.  But other meanings and interpretations are certainly valid.  

[ahrtee]

Well, amongst other things, Dean and Sam assume Sam was going to be in there with Lucifer for eternity. For another, everyone thinks Lucifer is the Big Bad to end all Big Bads, so there's an unstated assumption that if Alastair was bad, Lucifer would be that much worse.

But in the end, two different Hells. Like Heaven, everyone experiences it differently, I think.

Yeah, I'd have liked the show writers to acknowledge that Dean was in Hell before and it broke him and he's gotta have some response to going back there. But, who knows? Maybe we'll get that acknowledgement in the next few seasons. Maybe we won't. If it serves the purpose of angst, there's more likelihood the writers'll mention it. I'm not betting on it.

It's that "unstated assumption" that I was trying to address in my original post.  Sorry if it started a battle.  But I agree with everything you say.  And while I do feel that Dean's time *wound up* being worse than Sam's (and yes, I agree that everyone reacts differently, so it's subjective), yes, Dean was expecting Sam to spend eternity in the cage, which would indeed be worse, even if just in terms of longevity, so his Graceland comment is based on that.   

 

But the fact is, (and the reason why many people believe that the show has indicated that Sam's time was so much worse), that the show *does* keep bringing up Sam's cage time (they spent a whole year discussing it, showing flashbacks, scenes of torture, talking about how messed up Sam is) and it still comes up, even six years later, every time Lucifer is mentioned; but no one has ever mentioned Dean's time since season 5, when (aside from the "Graceland" comment) it was a joke ("I've never been paralyzed, but I've been to hell, and there's an archangel there that wants me to drop the soap.")   The only other explanation for Sam being so messed up while Dean supposedly just brushed it off would be that he was weaker than Dean, which, aside from not being true, I don't think TPTB would allow because of the fan backlash.  So, therefore, the only possible allowable explanation would be that Sam's time was so much worse.  Implied, not spoken, but still obvious.  Again, JMO.  

 

Now, we all know that, if we were sticking to actual character response, it would only mean that Dean has convinced Sam (and maybe even himself) that he's over it; and we know he'd never discuss it deliberately.  But, as Omegamom said above, it would be nice if *someone* mentioned it once in a while--if not flashbacks, then at least when it's appropriate to the story, like when Sam insisted on going alone to fetch Bobby, or when Dean went down himself this season.  And I still believe that hell (if not the physical torture, then what he did there) is what broke Dean permanently, turned him into his downward spiral, and led to most of his stupid decisions since then, and would love to see that acknowledged, if not addressed.  Yes, wishful thinking.

Edited March 13, 2016 by ahrtee

[7kstar]

I don't remember what ep, but Crowley also states that the cage makes the rest of hell look like heaven.  (Not an exact quote)  So with Sam being in hell longer than Dean, Lucifer supposedly the worst of the worst ever...Sam's hell would be worse than Dean's.

 

However I never got that Sam was totally broken in a way like Dean, so it failed for me.  You can tell me something but if I don't believe it by what I see, then it won't matter.

 

I do think that hell is suppose to be unique to the person stuck in hell.  But since the show will never really tell us, you are left to figure it out for yourself.  JMO.  :)

[AwesomO4000]

I have tired repeatedly to understand what purpose it served to have Dean say those words and all I can come up with is that the show is telling me that I am to understand that Sam's experience will be worse than Dean's because it's being said by the man who was in Hell for 40 years. That to me makes Dean a more reliable narrator than anyone else in this situation.

 

What is Dean's motivation to say that?

 

He's not trying to change Sam's mind because the decision was made and Dean agreed. Dean was worried about things going sideways but he wasn't trying to frighten him into not doing it.

 

Nor is it a comfort to Sam and Dean didn't say it to be a dick.

 

It's framed around Sam making Dean promise to not look for him and to go live an apple pie life. It's reinforcing that Sam is 100% destined for a fate worse than Dean in the past and in the future. That's how it seems to me.

 

*waves* I'm back... took me a bit to catch up. And here I go hitting the ground running... (let's hope I don't stumble... or you can if that's your thing, I won't mind).

 

The interesting thing about you saying this is that I interpreted the scene completely differently. (See the bolded part). I actually thought that trying to change Sam's mind was exactly what Dean was trying to do... he was just trying to do so in a way that would make it seem like Sam's decision. And that was because, yes, they had already decided, but I thought that Dean was having second thoughts about that. So how could Dean get out of letting Sam sacrifice himself without going back on his agreeing or outright saying no? ...which while he could do based on their agreement, it would be bound to start an argument and make Sam feel like Dean wasn't trusting him, so I in my interpretation, I think Dean was trying a last ditch effort to get Sam to call it off. Or barring that, to make sure Sam really was committed to doing this and wouldn't take the first excuse not to and/or crumble when faced with the reality and wimp out, and that was strategically important with so much at stake. So I didn't think that the scene was trying to tell me narratively that Sam's hell was going to be so much worse... because it hadn't even happened yet, so Dean saying it was already a guess. For me, it was showing how savvy Dean was at debating (for lack of a better word) and in being prepared and making sure Sam was prepared and ready to do what was necessary.

 

I get this interpretation from thinking back on their agreement and in the specific dialogue you quoted above. Breaking it down:

   

DEAN: Sam, I got a bad feeling about this.

SAM: Well, you'd be nuts to have a good feeling about it.

DEAN: You know what I mean. Detroit. He always said he'd jump your bones in Detroit. Here we are.

SAM: Here we are.

DEAN: Maybe this is him rolling out the red carpet, you know? Maybe he knows something that we don't.

 

Dean is expressing doubt and floating the idea that Lucifer might know they are coming and maybe even wants it or that maybe he even knows more than that. Considering their whole plan relies on them taking Lucifer by surprise, this is a BIG bit of doubt to introduce. And in many cases this would seem like something a person would normally reflect on, except this is Dean if we aren't overly confident, we'll fake it till we make it, let's go in guns blazing Winchester. My interpretation was that Dean had a reason to bring things up exactly in this way and in asking that specific question. He wants Sam to rethink the plan (my interpretation when I first saw this scene, and it hasn't changed with multiple viewings).

 

Sam, knowing his brother, hits exactly what Dean is thinking with: "Dean, I'm sure he knows a buttload we don't. We just got to hope he doesn't know about the rings." followed immediately by  Bam! little brother misdirect with "Hey, um... on the subject, there's something I got to talk to you about." Which smooth transition violation there Sam since the subject was not about the result at all but was a strategy question, but you sounded all sincere and shit, so you got Dean to bite, so kudos I guess.

 

Next we get a little do-si-do in conversation, and Dean is still thinking he's got an "out" until Sam hits him with the "You got to promise not to try to bring me back." And I got that from his "What? No, I didn't sign up for that." Oh, you didn't Dean? Just a minute ago, you said "I'm aware" when Sam asked "you know I'm not coming back, right?" So you were apparently hoping there was either a sneaky way out or you were mentally crossing your fingers on agreeing with the whole Sam not coming back thing. Busted!

 

And so faced with the whole little brother "Dean," of "didn't we just agree on this a second ago?" Dean's brain went to "new plan! Try scare tactic "reasoning" and he went with the "oh come on this is going to be so bad, you can't make me promise not to go back on the plan, and you don't really want to do this do you?" tactic.

 

Except Sam doesn't bite and sticks to the topic at hand - which he steered Dean to - "with Once the Cage is shut, you can't go poking at it, Dean. It's too risky."

 

So Dean presented a persuasive argument, but he came up against a determined and stubborn little brother. He wasn't going to win... But all the same, he determined that Sam was determined to go through with this despite the doubt and potential consequences Dean threw at him, so he got strategic information even if he didn't achieve what I thought was his goal of convincing Sam to call it off.

 

I thought the conversation was a good piece of writing showing the brotherly dynamic. It was somewhat like the Sam/Dean "Wanted Dead or Alive" scene in "No Rest For the Wicked" where that time it was Dean diverting Sam's attention from what was going to happen. In this case, Sam was not going for Dean's diversionary tactics, but letting Dean know this was how it was going to be.

 

That was my interpretation of that scene, but I understand if others don't see it that way.

 

But the fact is, (and the reason why many people believe that the show has indicated that Sam's time was so much worse), that the show *does* keep bringing up Sam's cage time (they spent a whole year discussing it, showing flashbacks, scenes of torture, talking about how messed up Sam is) and it still comes up, even six years later, every time Lucifer is mentioned.

 

Yes, some of the second half of season 5 and some of season 7 dealt with Sam's hell effects, but in my opinion, much of season 4 dealt with Dean's, and it was actually more front and center than Sam's hallucinations in season 7... which sometimes were indicated only through little things Sam did in the background or through things Sam said such as telling Dean that he wasn't all right, but was dealing, etc. Dean's hell experiences in season 4 were discussed by Castiel, Bobby, Uriel, Alastair, Anna, a stunt demon or two, and probably more I'm missing (Zachariah?). Sam's were basically talked about by Dean, Sam, and Bobby until came the time Castiel saved him.

 

but no one has ever mentioned Dean's time since season 5, when (aside from the "Graceland" comment) it was a joke ("I've never been paralyzed, but I've been to hell, and there's an archangel there that wants me to drop the soap.")   The only other explanation for Sam being so messed up while Dean supposedly just brushed it off would be that he was weaker than Dean, which, aside from not being true, I don't think TPTB would allow because of the fan backlash.  So, therefore, the only possible allowable explanation would be that Sam's time was so much worse.  Implied, not spoken, but still obvious.  Again, JMO.

 

It's all up for interpretation, but why couldn't the message be Sam's just not as strong as Dean? In my opinion, season 8 had a bunch of exactly that message - Sam giving up, wimping out on hunting, abandoning Kevin, not looking for Dean, while conversely, Dean fought impossible odds through purgatory to loyally find Castiel even though saving himself would have been so much easier. Even the second half where Sam was supposedly doing the trials mostly had Sam not able to physically do it by himself and then try to basically commit suicide, because he'd rather do that since he thought he was a failure.

 

I would rather that not be the message, but I can see at the same time where it could be that.

[Omegamom]

Jensen gets mildly grumpy about fight scenes:

http://doomedsammy.tumblr.com/post/141081677230/darlingcap-vegascon16-they-were-expressing

[ahrtee]

Yeah, it's not just the "losing the weapon" thing--for me, it's the "I'm down and the bad guy is coming at me and instead of rolling away, kicking or sweeping his feet out from under him, I put up my arms and cringe and wait to be saved."

[auntvi]

Along those lines, how many concussions have Sam and Dean had over 10+ years? Hundreds?  They should both be suffering from chronic traumatic encephalopathy at this point.

[DittyDotDot]

I've been suggesting they need to invest in football helmets for at least a year now...I blame all the stupidity on brain damage. ;)

[Omegamom]

And headaches from whiplash. Oodles of them. Of course, since S04, they've had Cas around. Maybe he just gives them a quick physical tune-up every month? ;-)

[catrox14]

......TWDS

 

 

#sorrynotsorry

[Omegamom]

Tactical Water Delivery Systems?

The Walt Disney Studios?

I'm flummoxed.

[mertensia]

I figure at this point God has a permanent "no traumatic brain injuries" protection on them.

[catrox14]

Tactical Water Delivery Systems?

The Walt Disney Studios?

I'm flummoxed.

 

 

That's What Dean Said

[Demented Daisy]

I've been suggesting they need to invest in football helmets for at least a year now...I blame all the stupidity on brain damage. ;)

 

Same here.  Whenever they say something that seems not Sam- or Dean-like, I always blame it on brain damage.  They just don't remember!

[Binns]

And headaches from whiplash. Oodles of them. Of course, since S04, they've had Cas around. Maybe he just gives them a quick physical tune-up every month? ;-)

It's the CW ointment at work!

[catrox14]

So because insomnia sucks...I watching First Born again for ...reasons.

And then I thought about Dean killing Cain, and we didn't see his body but the Darkness was released so he must not be in this plane...So with the introduction of pocket universes in Safe House...I think Cain is in a pocket universe. Because if he was in Hell, someone would know. And he's surely not in Heaven..

If he's in a pocket universe...maybe Dean and Sam can get him out to help deal with Amara.

[FlickChick]

Sorry, catrox, your imagination far exceeds that of the writing staff. ;(

[catrox14]

Sorry, catrox, your imagination far exceeds that of the writing staff. ;(

 

You know I would have agreed with you, until we started getting all this wibbley wobbley timey wimey stuff and soul eaters and such.  I have irrational hope.

[Lrdmordain]

So I'm not sure if this is the exact thread for this, feel free to point me to the correct area if is one, but having watch live over the last season and this one, I have noticed a rather odd trend.

 

In the typical non-story arc episodes it seems as if they just alternate which brother is story arc focused and which brother says they need to take a break / get back to hunting / need to clear their heads.

 

For an example from this season, in the wrestling episode it was Dean who wanted to go to the funeral and it was Sam who said they should stay and keep researching / working. The next episode, Safe House, it's Sam who wants to hunt the case, Dean wants to keep working / isn't up for it. And this occured frequently during the Mark of Cain story last season, one or two episodes of Dean wallowing / wanting to research a way to get rid of the mark, followed by an episode of him being accepting of his fate, then the next episode would be back to wallowing / obsessed Dean.

 

Is this just a trope of the show? Did it occur in the earlier seasons? Is it just done to extend each season's story arc?

[catrox14]

 

Is this just a trope of the show? Did it occur in the earlier seasons? Is it just done to extend each season's story arc?

 

I think the theme of finding cases has always been there. I think it seems more pronounced now because the boys have a home base so maybe it seems more rote? They have to get to 23 episodes and they have a mytharc and that's been the case since s1 really. 

 

It's built from the X-Files motif mostly I think.

[Lrdmordain]

It's more a bother in that it seems to be a light switch change every episode or so. Either it's going to be Dean's week to want to focus on the myth arc and Sam to hunt or visa versa, there doesn't really seem to be any variation. There doesn't seem to be any...consistency for lack of a better term. If Dean for instance has a week where he says they should take a break and go hunting, why would he then switch back to the opposite position the next week, only to switch back again the following week? 

 

It simply seems like they're repeating the same lesson, I.E. don't over obsess on the big arc but do remain focused but don't forget to take time for the regular hunting cases but do remember that the threat is looming and needs to be dealt with etc..., over and over again with this trope. 

[catrox14]

I think its a function of trying to produce 23 episodes in a manner that fans still want. Some fans love MOTW and others love mytharc. Some want Sam-centric eps and others want Dean centric. Then they have to work in Cas and Crowley and it becomes more rote.

[DittyDotDot]

So I'm not sure if this is the exact thread for this, feel free to point me to the correct area if is one, but having watch live over the last season and this one, I have noticed a rather odd trend.

 

In the typical non-story arc episodes it seems as if they just alternate which brother is story arc focused and which brother says they need to take a break / get back to hunting / need to clear their heads.

 

For an example from this season, in the wrestling episode it was Dean who wanted to go to the funeral and it was Sam who said they should stay and keep researching / working. The next episode, Safe House, it's Sam who wants to hunt the case, Dean wants to keep working / isn't up for it. And this occured frequently during the Mark of Cain story last season, one or two episodes of Dean wallowing / wanting to research a way to get rid of the mark, followed by an episode of him being accepting of his fate, then the next episode would be back to wallowing / obsessed Dean.

 

Is this just a trope of the show? Did it occur in the earlier seasons? Is it just done to extend each season's story arc?

 

Yeah, this has been there from the beginning. And yes it's done to fill the full 23-episode run for the season. S1 was mostly Dean finding them jobs and pushing for them to hunt and keep busy; with Sam wanting to find Dad and whatever killed Jessica so he could get revenge. S2-S4 had Sam fairly mission-focused while Dean generally just wanted to keep busy and hunt. S5 had them both focused and unfocused on Lucifer and apocalypse at times. in fact, I don't remember them having this argument all that much in S5. In general, though, S5 did better blending the myth and the MoTW, IMO so the MoTW episodes didn't feel as much like just filling time. S6 and S7 had Dean more mission-focused with Sam more just happy to hunt randoms at times. S8-S10, seemed like Dean was more mission-focused in the first half with Sam more mission-focused in the second, but there's some overlap there too.

 

Anyway, Depending on the season, there's usually one brother more focused on finding and killing [insert big bad of the season] for whatever reason. The cynic in me says the flip-flopping this season is probably due to the show lacking leadership and focus which has the writers doing their own things more often than not. But, it could also be due to how neither Sam nor Dean are pushing the main storyline arc this season. I mean, stuff is happening around them, but they're not causing those things to happen themselves, just reacting to it. So, for a couple episodes Sam is all obsessed in finding Amara and fixing what he broke; stays up for days on end researching until Dean drags him out of the bunker where he gets some perspective and sees there's a whole world out there who needs their help too. Then Dean learns he has desires for Amara which freak him the Hell out and starts to obsess about finding and kill her himself until Sam drags him out of the bunker to gain some perspective and see there's a whole world out there that needs their help too. And the cycle repeats.

 

For me, I wouldn't mind they stop having this discussion almost every episode--as well as the "How do you know this is our kind of problem" discussion as well--I get it, the show can't really be hunting the Big Bad for 23 episodes and I don't think I need to be reminded every week of why they're taking time out to hunt randoms when they have this Big Bad out there. And I already know the show is named Supernatural, so it's probably going to be their type of problem no matter if it appears there could be another explanation.

Edited April 3, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

 

I get it, the show can't really be hunting the Big Bad for 23 episodes and I don't think I need to be reminded every week of why they're taking time out to hunt randoms when they have this Big Bad out there.

 

I think there is a really easy solution but outside of maybe Season 4, it has never really been used. Namely, tie the MOTW episodes to the mytharc. They didn`t do it in Season 4 but technically every episode could have been a seal breaking and at the same time 90 % of those could have still played out like a typical MOTW hunt. I mean, the seals could be everything and nothing.

 

This Season they have God`s sister. She has technically God`s powers of creation. Therefore she could influence all manner of things. Incuding monsters. They could find individual cases by looking for her. That only slightly changes the beginning exposition and then the episode can still play like any old MOTW hunt. The individual writer would have to change nothing about the episode they wrote other than maybe 5 or 6 lines of dialogue.

 

It becomes part of an arc loosely but it is still easily accessible like a procedural/anthology over a really, really arc-driven show. 

 

Minimum effort really. Though it would require one original thought.   

[DittyDotDot]

I think there is a really easy solution but outside of maybe Season 4, it has never really been used. Namely, tie the MOTW episodes to the mytharc. They didn`t do it in Season 4 but technically every episode could have been a seal breaking and at the same time 90 % of those could have still played out like a typical MOTW hunt. I mean, the seals could be everything and nothing.

 

This Season they have God`s sister. She has technically God`s powers of creation. Therefore she could influence all manner of things. Incuding monsters. They could find individual cases by looking for her. That only slightly changes the beginning exposition and then the episode can still play like any old MOTW hunt. The individual writer would have to change nothing about the episode they wrote other than maybe 5 or 6 lines of dialogue.

 

It becomes part of an arc loosely but it is still easily accessible like a procedural/anthology over a really, really arc-driven show. 

 

Minimum effort really. Though it would require one original thought.   

 

That's what I meant by S5 blending the MoTW episodes with the myth better. Almost every episode was tangentially linked to the myth arc of stopping the non-apocalypse. My Bloody Valentine, Changing Channels, 99 Problems, Hammer of the Gods and so on were MoTW episodes, but also were myth episodes in the end. Very few episodes from S5 stand outside the myth arc, IMO. Fallen Idols, The Curious Case of Dean Winchester and Swap Meat are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

 

Anyway, I didn't mean to say there was no other way to do this better. It's just that since they don't implore other methods, I would prefer they just omit these little time-waster discussions, myself.

Edited April 3, 2016 by DittyDotDot