All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[Demented Daisy]

Over in the elimination game, we're having a little discussion about Dean and home:

 

Catrox:

For me it summed up Dean's terribly sad journey and he can't find his way back home now even if knew how.

 

 

Me:

He hasn't been able to "find his way home" since he was 4.  Dying and becoming a demon changed nothing for Dean.

 

Sue:

This probably has to be the saddest thing in the history of sad things on Supernatural.

*snip*

I thought of Sam and "home" was Dean/family

 

Mary and John in the house in Kansas, the Impala, Sam and John, Bobby and his house, the LoL -- they've all been "home" for Dean.  But he's also had to leave them all or they've been taken away from him.  (The LoL is debatable, but I don't think he's felt the same about it since Kevin was murdered there.)

 

I would like to think that Dean feels his home is with Sam and family, that the physical structure doesn't matter, but it doesn't explain why he keeps trying to find a little corner of the world he can call home.  A part of him will always want what was ripped from him as a child.

[SueB]

Excellent and F*CKING TRAGIC point. It's 7:40 am and I'm already sad.

[Demented Daisy]

Sorry.  I wish it wasn't this way; I want the same things for Dean that John wanted.  

 

But, hey, if "Carry On Wayward Son" has any meaning to the show at all, maybe he'll get it someday.  Even if it's in his perfect Heaven.  Being reunited with everyone he loved -- I don't think he could ask for more.

 

I hope that someday, he'll agree with Pamela.

[DittyDotDot]

But, hey, if "Carry On Wayward Son" has any meaning to the show at all, maybe he'll get it someday.  Even if it's in his perfect Heaven.  Being reunited with everyone he loved -- I don't think he could ask for more.

 

I hope that someday, he'll agree with Pamela.

 

I don't know, I kinda think Heaven is screwy too. At least Hell is honest. However, I'm imagining, at this point, Dean probably agrees with Pamela in as much as the attic being better than the basement. I hope Dean never fully buys into Heaven though.

[DittyDotDot]

From Speculation With Spoilers...

 

(except BEN ... who I insists is Dean's son and I'm not coming off of that position)

 

I swear to gods.  If they retcon that to being Dean's son....NOPE NOPE NOPE. 

That makes Lisa a liar because she flat out told Dean that Ben wasn't his son. She said she had a paternity test. 

 

What would be the point of her lying about that when he ended up living with her anyway and being a father to Ben until Sam showed up. Dean wasn't going to get into a custody battle over Ben. Gods and it's even worse because then he mind wiped his own son. YIKES.

 

I didn't like Lisa but that would be terrible for her characterization IMO.

 

Technically she said "blood test", which proves nothing unless they have the blood of the father and can do an actual paternity test.  And I wouldn't blame her for keep Ben's paternity to herself (even post-Apocalypse) because first all she knew was he was a grifter/monster hunter and then he was good with Ben but kinda rough around the edges.  Her kid's safety over Dean knowing the truth... any day of the week IMO.

 

But I FIRMLY believe we will never see Ben or hear about he OR Lisa again.   

 

I agree we will never see or hear about Ben or Lisa again, unless it's an offhand comment like in The Purge. They were so loathed by the fandom I doubt TPTB will go back to them.

 

Anyhoo, I liked both Lisa and Ben and what they represented for Dean, but I'm not sure I want to believe Ben was really Dean's son. I don't think it tarnishes Lisa's character as she was most likely protecting her son, but I think it's almost more meaningful that he wasn't Dean's son. Dean finding a family with people who weren't blood after he's lost all the blood family he had seems more poignant to me. Especially considering how his blood family that was cropping up in S6 was turning out to not be very family-like.

[Demented Daisy]

Dean has to die sooner or later.  What are his choices?  Heaven, Hell, Purgatory.  Or, I suppose, oblivion.  Nothingness.

 

At least Heaven gives him a chance to be reunited with his loved ones.  Hell is just more pain and suffering.  Purgatory is a constant battle for survival, maybe with Benny.  

 

I suppose oblivion is his chance at peace.  *sigh*  

 

ETA  Or they could create a Chiron situation: Dean is allowed to continue saving people as long as people need saving.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[DittyDotDot]

Dean has to die sooner or later.  What are his choices?  Heaven, Hell, Purgatory.  Or, I suppose, oblivion.  Nothingness.

 

At least Heaven gives him a chance to be reunited with his loved ones.  Hell is just more pain and suffering.  Purgatory is a constant battle for survival, maybe with Benny.  

 

I suppose oblivion is his chance at peace.  *sigh*  

 

ETA  Or they could create a Chiron situation: Dean is allowed to continue saving people as long as people need saving.

 

But, that reunion with loved ones in Heaven is a lie. The only person he'd be reunited with is Sam, the rest would just be "memorex" since everyone is secluded into their own piece of Heaven--except soul mates, of course. Like I said, at least Purgatory is honest and Hell is real. But, yeah, I'd take oblivion if I had a choice. I so hate to be lied to.

[Demented Daisy]

I tend to think they would make an exception for Sam and Dean.  Like in the old mythologies, the gods would grant great heroes one wish in gratitude for the good works they did.

 

I think Dean would want his family in Heaven.  Maybe Sam, too.  But I could be wrong.

[Aeryn13]

I would take the pleasant fantasy over the constant battle or mindnumbing torture anyday. No pain and no hardship? Not even a contest.  And I think even Dean with all the self-loathing sees it that way.

 

That said, I think what Dean is looking for now is peace of mind. Which is what I would wish for him too. In terms of home, Dean may still hold some very traditional ideas on what that entails but can find "home" in both people and places, like the bunker. Heck, even in the car. He just doesn`t realize that because it doesn`t fit with the  aforementioned traditional ideas and his early childhood memories.  

[rue721]

But, that reunion with loved ones in Heaven is a lie. The only person he'd be reunited with is Sam, the rest would just be "memorex" since everyone is secluded into their own piece of Heaven--except soul mates, of course. Like I said, at least Purgatory is honest and Hell is real. But, yeah, I'd take oblivion if I had a choice. I so hate to be lied to.

 

I agree. Heaven in SPN is like some kind of nightmare. I guessssss it's better than Hell, but at least in Hell, you can become a demon and come back to Earth. And you aren't isolated in some kind of oubliette, literally trapped in memories and your own mind. You're still able to interact. Purgatory would have been OK, but to me it looks unappealing because I'm just not outdoorsy. YMMV :P

 

Anyhoo, I liked both Lisa and Ben and what they represented for Dean, but I'm not sure I want to believe Ben was really Dean's son. I don't think it tarnishes Lisa's character as she was most likely protecting her son, but I think it's almost more meaningful that he wasn't Dean's son. Dean finding a family with people who weren't blood after he's lost all the blood family he had seems more poignant to me. Especially considering how his blood family that was cropping up in S6 was turning out to not be very family-like.

 

I feel pretty much the same way. I also don't think that Ben is Dean's biological son, because Lisa said he wasn't. I hope he isn't, either, because if he is, then Dean is an absentee father. He hasn't even made a single child support payment, afaik. (Actually, I think the reason that the show took great pains to say that Dean wasn't Ben's biological father was specifically so that he wouldn't be in the position of being a dead beat dad).

 

I would like to think that Dean feels his home is with Sam and family, that the physical structure doesn't matter, but it doesn't explain why he keeps trying to find a little corner of the world he can call home.  A part of him will always want what was ripped from him as a child.

 

I don't think it's just about wanting the home he lost as a kid, I think it's also about not being able to create his own home and family now, as an adult (because hunting/monsters took that possibility from him, too).

 

Dean seems to me to be someone who likes to put down roots. Between him and Sam, he's the one who has a bunch of traditions and routines, and he also "nests" more in general. I think he also pretty clearly wanted a wife and kids. I think he feels like those doors are closed to him, though, because he just can't really be part of the normal world anymore. He seems to figure that he infects it with monster stuff when he tries (like with Lisa and Ben). Imo, that Dean can't make his own family (wife, kids) and his own home in the regular world was a major theme of S6.

[SueB]

IA that they won't get a biological family --- which is a loss to mankind because:

1) Dahmn -- have you seen those boys? Just sayin'

2) Powerful bloodline (which is precisely why you might not want to burden anyone else with it)

3) Who will be the MoL legacies -- the boys need to come up with a plan there

4) Dean WANTS TO BE A DAD DAMMIT.  He adopts young people left and right to make his own "family".

5)They have mad skillz they could pass on.

6) See point #1.

[catrox14]

Surely someone can just clone the boys again right?

[shimarella]

Would this thread be the right place to ask? I'm looking for an image of the Angel Trap that the boys used to trap Gadreel in Meta Fiction. I'm thinking about creating a nerdlesque ( yes!) Supernatural routine and I had an idea to start trapped in the circle. I guess I could use the angel warding sigils but that doesn't seem right somehow. I've looked online and can't find anything. I'm not making this up, am I?

[Omegamom]

All I can find is a description: a circle with four Enochian symbols.

Sorry!

Maybe instead use a circle of flame-colored gauzy fabrics, which you could then use to dance with after "escaping"? ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

Wasn't it just a ring of burning holy oil they trapped Gadreel in? And then they used the cuffs-that-can-hold-anything...right?

 

 

 

Oh wait, I found an image of him sitting in the middle of some sort of sigil...I don't know if this is clear enough for your purposed, though?

 

[shimarella]

Yeah I think the screen grabs are the only record. I would use a "ring of fire" except I dont think the venue would be supportive of that. haha. I may have to go a slightly different route with the concept but this was super-helpful. Thanks everyone!

[Omegamom]

No dancing with red, orange, and yellow scarves? Humbug!

So let us know your end approach!

[Omegamom]

Apparently, the S10 DVD comes with scenes that were cut.

So, just for you lovelies, a link to a tumblr person who has posted them:

http://iamdancingmuffin.tumblr.com/tagged/s10dvideo

[catrox14]

Thanks for that link Omegamom!

 

That opening scene with Cas and Crowley. Cas just sitting there. Utterly lifeless was creepy. I'm thinking now that the bartender he saw in his dream is he why Dean reacted so strongly to the girl that was murdered. He wasn't interested in her at all. And he must have been afraid that Crowley really did complete him in a way he didn't want. Not sure that scene needed to be in but  I'm glad to see it.

 

Good thing they left out of the scene with Sam finding the pictures.  My head canon had been that Sam had looked for them when he got back to the bunker once he got a call from Dean to meet him, just in case. The scene they cut out strongly implied that if Sam hadn't been cleaning the floor he wouldn't have found nor even thought about the pictures.

Edited September 9, 2015 by catrox14

[catrox14]

http://yourfavoritedirector.tumblr.com/post/128659831343/the-executioners-song-unaired-sceneplease-do-not

 

Here's another one from Exectioner's Song

 

Cas and Crowley argue over who is Dean's boyfriend. Literally using the word 'boyfriend'.  That's amazing. And it's not entirely snarky.  Mind blown

Edited September 8, 2015 by catrox14

[Omegamom]

I thought that that one was also at my link...?

But, yeah. Those scenes (Cas and Crowley, and Dean and Crowley) give the impression that the writers would be happy to maybe nudge some things forward...

;-)

[catrox14]

I didn't see it if it was. Sorry!!!

[Omegamom]

Eh, no problem. I just linked to her tumblr because it the link she gave was tagged, so you just got the deleted scenes, not everything else. :-D

I wonder if they're available for folks who bought the season on iTunes ...? Guess I'll go check, it would be nice.

ETA: Bah. Not there. Having spent the dollars, it would be nice to get goodies like that, too. It would have been much faster than anything on tumblr, which is slow as molasses.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Omegamom

[7kstar]

Looks like 10 will be worth the money for the dvd's. 

 

Loved the scene with both Cas and Crowley saying who is Dean's boyfriend.  Sorry Crowley you protest too much especially after the dream scene in Brother's Keeper.

 

IA...I'm glad they cut the cleaning scene.  It was more powerful with the pictures coming from Sam than it would have been him finding them about to be burned.  Although it give a bit more info on Dean's head space before he calls Death.  But it also is clear without that scene.

 

I hope that Dean's story is something besides let me support my brother.  It would be cool if both Sam Fan's and Dean Fans, plus both Brother's fans got something new and unexpected.  Not counting on it, but I can still wish upon a star!  :)

[catrox14]

So, re Crowley and Dean.

From the DVD thread;

I don't think Crowley was in love with Dean. My weird new head! Canon is that something with Sams blood and having been in Sams head made him care about Dean with a weird amalgam of brotherly/fatherly affection that was all mixed up with the preexisting sexually ambiguous aspect of Crowley. I think that's why he never saw demon! Deans betrayal coming. I think he wanted to believe that Dean was malleable since he'd gone along with Crowley machinations to get the mark and the blade into Deans hands. And all the mixed stuff I mentioned before made him blind to the reality of demon! Dean.

[Aeryn13]

I don`t think it was affection either but I would hate it if it had been about "Sam`s blood". Dean has always been capable of making connections and winning affections/respect, even in curious places, by being himself. Just as Dean. So I never questioned the same happening to Crowley. I want to keep that aspect of Dean`s all Dean`s, not be one more thing that revolves around Sam.

[catrox14]

Dean and Crowley were adversaries that worked together when forced into it. There was no "connection" on an emotional level with or from Dean IMO until Crowley was injected with human blood which was Sams in this case. Now maybe any ole human blood would have done the same thing but coupled with b so ng in Sam I can't help wonder if it did soften him towards Dean. I'm not saying Sams blood was so special.

It does suck because I would have preferred Crowley had done that to Dean out of hatred and vengeance and just simply using him for his own benefit without the whole boyfriend allegory in s10. But since we got that it made me rethink it.

[Aeryn13]

 

Now maybe any ole human blood would have done the same thing but coupled with b so ng in Sam I can't help wonder if it did soften him towards Dean. I'm not saying Sams blood was so special.

 

I know but for me that would still make it all.about.Sam. Just like Dean`s amulet is now the SAMulet. And so on and so forth. I`d much rather that DEAN is so special that for some reason even Crowley couldn`t help but be intrigued by him. 

[catrox14]

Oh I think Crowley was always intrigued by Dean but not affection towards him. Trust me. I hate my own head canon here. Lol

[Omegamom]

My head!canon: Crowley is weirdly fond of both of them. And amused. And intrigued. And irritated. But, as always, he has multiple reasons for everything: he thought he could forge a new Knight of Hell indebted to him as the guide into demonhood, and influenced by years of interactions. And, also, a way to tweak Sam, who *hates* him. And as a *hold* on Sam, because controlling demon!Dean means having an emotional hook into Sam. And, as an aside, a certain amount of sexual interest. Like I said, multiple reasons...

[rue721]

I think that things did change for Crowley once Sam started injecting him with his blood. When he said to Sam that he felt like they had a ~moment~ in the church, I think he meant it, and that he really did feel a connection with Sam (and Dean, by proxy) because of it.

 

Sam rejected him totally after that, though. Dean was the one who kept putting out a bit of an olive branch to Crowley. So Crowley forged what passes for a ~connection~ with Dean. I think that in his own way, he actually does care about him and think of him as his best friend. I think he genuinely does care about Sam still, too. After all, he flipped out when Sam tried to kill him.

 

I think that Crowley also genuinely respects them, so it would mean a lot for his own self-image if they liked or respected him, too. I mean, Fergus was an insecure loser who was willing to sell his soul for a bigger dick and Crowley has dedicated hundreds of years to eking out some level of social status in Hell, so I think that there's a part of Crowley that clearly cares about approval and validation and would love to have that from people he perceives as admirable/badass like Sam and Dean. As banal and boring as that sounds.

 

I think that putting the Mark on Dean was Crowley's way of trying to do for Deanwhat Sam had done for Crowley when he injected him in the Church.

[mertensia]

Crowley's been manipulating the Winchesters on a regular basis; I can't imagine he didn't have an idea of how he thought time with DemonDean would go. My view pretty much matches Omegamom's .

[SueB]

I agree, it's complicated with Crowley.  But there's genuine respect their (he IS the only one who doesn't underestimate those 'denim clad nightmares').  They are also the best time he's ever had.  Yes, the imprisoned him.  But it was sort of fair.  He's the King of Hell, they're hunters. It's a bit of Sam and Ralph from the cartoons.

In that they both have their jobs and Crowley appreciates that.  Probably more than the boys. 

But they don't BORE him.  Which is the ultimate crime.  It's why he doesn't keep minions around for long.

[7kstar]

I guess I believed that Crowley was bored.  Really bored.  It started out as a game.  Then Dean got under his skin.  He shares some of the same issues Crowley had as a human.  He wanted someone to show off his world ideas and Dean fit the idea.  Doesn't have to be a romantic idea.  Plus Dean did prove himself trustworthy in a weird mixed up way.  He told Crowley he lied...he could have said nothing.

 

Plus he isn't stupid, killing the Winchesters or trying has ended badly for anyone that has gone up against them.  Crowley does love to survive.  :)  Besides look how cute it was to watch Crowley drink his fruity drink while Dean drank his hard liquor.  :)

[mertensia]

You know one thing I'm really curious about, if they manage to get Jeffrey Dean Morgan back: will he attack Dean verbally for letting Sam jump into the Pit? How would he handle the boys in general? And how would the boys handle seeing John again?

[catrox14]

You know one thing I'm really curious about, if they manage to get Jeffrey Dean Morgan back: will he attack Dean verbally for letting Sam jump into the Pit? How would he handle the boys in general? And how would the boys handle seeing John again?

 

 

Oh man, if John berated Dean for that? I would hate him forever.  Or if he said, you should have gone in with him? Oh man...That's a question that ....talk about divisive!  Like if John is mad at Dean for going along with Sam to stop the Apocalypse.  and then honoring Sam's vow to be with Lisa and Ben....that's....I

 

of course if I was Dean I'd throw Adam in his face. LOL

[Demented Daisy]

I'm in the middle of a S10 re-watch.  Currently on About a Boy and... they could have avoided all of the Darkness crap.  If Dean had just agreed to remain a teenager.

 

Makes Dean seem even more selfish.  He's destroying the world, just so he doesn't have to wait 7 years to legally drink.

 

The writers never think of these things, do they?  *sigh*

[Aeryn13]

 

The writers never think of these things, do they?  *sigh*

 

I very much doubt the writers had come up with the darkness when About a Boy was written.

 

But if we follow that chain of events, Dean no longer having the Mark also no longer is able to kill Cain. Cain, at that point, has fallen back to the "dark side" so to speak. So noone could have stopped him from killing off all his descendants. Which, sizeable chunk of the human population. And as he meant to be thourough, he wanted to kill them all.

 

It ain`t the Darkness but I betcha the Darkness will kill less people onscreen than the entirety of Cain`s lineage.

 

That said, I liked the About a Boy episode because Glass actually did try to portray Dean as a hero and not just a failure. He willingly gave up his chance to live mark-free to save Sam and the girl. And at least he didn`t know about any Darkness-related business when he chose to retake the Mark again.

 

I always wondered why, if that thing is so dangerous, God himself had to fight it, noone but absolutely noone put some clear warning signs on the Mark. Like, beam this knowledge into the brain of whoever has or takes the MOC at any given moment. Immediately. Death could have told them at any moment. But nope, lets give this incredibly critical bit of information only five minutes to midnight.

 

Any other show, even atrocious ones, would have established this Darkness business as at least an ongoing mystery over Season 10 to put this great obstacle/dilemma into removing it and boost the epicness mytharc factor of the whole storyline. This is the only one that whatevers its way in a lackluster fashion through a storyline and then at the end come up with something that could have made it much more meaty. Right before they scrap it entirely. Even 13year olds writing their first fanfic have a better feeling for narrative and structure than that. 

[catrox14]

I'm in the middle of a S10 re-watch.  Currently on About a Boy and... they could have avoided all of the Darkness crap.  If Dean had just agreed to remain a teenager.

 

Makes Dean seem even more selfish.  He's destroying the world, just so he doesn't have to wait 7 years to legally drink.

 

The writers never think of these things, do they?  *sigh*

 

 

 

Dean realized that his 14 year old body didn't have the strength to fight Hansel so he sacrificed his being free of the Mark to save Sam and Tina. And certainly not because he wanted to drink. Lucky for the writers that Cain is still alive at this point in the story. They can retcon it that Cain was holding back the Darkness until Dean became an adult again.

 

The Darkness reveal mucks up a ton of continuity but I don't think it compromises Dean's integrity or makes him selfish in About a Boy or really at all in s10 other than when he learned about it in Brother's Keeper, that we know of anyway.

 

Either way, I don't think Dean comes off as selfish in this episode even in retrospect

Edited October 7, 2015 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Mileage obviously varies.  But IMO, even saving Sam and the girl was selfish.  Dean knew what the Mark was doing to him.  He had already slaughtered a room full of people.  He knew what he was capable of.  He could have walked away without the Mark, and he didn't.  Every person he killed after that was a direct result of him taking the Mark again.  

 

Aeryn, that's precisely the point I was making.  They don't think about canon when they write season finales.  They came up with the Darkness without thinking of what it meant for what they had written previously.

 

As for Cain, we can say "what if" all day.  We'll never know how many people he would have killed and if that number would have been greater than the Darkness.

 

What narrative reason did the writers have for making Cain a killer again?  Other than legitimizing Dean retaking the Mark if, as you say, they hadn't thought of The Darkness yet?

[Aeryn13]

 

But IMO, even saving Sam and the girl was selfish.  Dean knew what the Mark was doing to him.  He had already slaughtered a room full of people.  He knew what he was capable of.  He could have walked away without the Mark, and he didn't.  Every person he killed after that was a direct result of him taking the Mark again.

 

Well, mileage definitely varies very much there. I didn`t think Dean retaking the MOC was selfish and I did find his actions heroic. Nor do I pin the Darkness on him. Sam "Can`t operate a phone" Winchester is leaps and bounds ahead of him there and I won`t whitewash this.   

 

 

What narrative reason did the writers have for making Cain a killer again?

 

They wanted to bring the character back to kill him off and drive home some dramatic point on how the Mark couldn`t be controlled indefinitely. It was actually a straightforward episode, I felt, and narratively one that made more sense than many, many others.

 

I would have so much more wanted to see an epic Cain myth episode as the 200th than that lame crap piece about Sam-fangirlism that it ended up being.

[catrox14]

Mileage obviously varies.  But IMO, even saving Sam and the girl was selfish.  Dean knew what the Mark was doing to him.  He had already slaughtered a room full of people.  He knew what he was capable of.  He could have walked away without the Mark, and he didn't. Every person he killed after that was a direct result of him taking the Mark again.

 

Definitely miles vary.

If Dean had stayed 14, the Witch and Hansel would have killed him, Sam and Tina and continued to kill and eat humans. IMO, Dean made a Hunter's choice as much as anything to kill legitimate monsters that were killing humans. Killing those monsters also sated the Mark.

Should Dean have let the monsters continue to kill humans?

Edited October 7, 2015 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Here we go again.  We can say "this would have happened" or "that would have happened", but we have no idea.  I'm not convinced that they would have killed all 3 of them.  All it took was one stab to get Hansel and I have difficulty believing that even a teenage Dean wouldn't be strong enough to shove a little old lady into an oven.  They wrote it that way because they had to, IMO, not because it made sense.

 

One call to Castiel or Crowley could have solved a lot of problems, too.  Sam and Dean are not the only people in the world who can hunt monsters.

 

 

Well, mileage definitely varies very much there. I didn`t think Dean retaking the MOC was selfish and I did find his actions heroic. Nor do I pin the Darkness on him. Sam "Can`t operate a phone" Winchester is leaps and bounds ahead of him there and I won`t whitewash this.   

 

I have no idea what you mean by "whitewashing" it, but the Darkness is as much on Dean as far as I'm concerned.  He foolishly took the Mark, without regard for Cain's warnings.  That's not Sam's fault.  

 

As I've said in another thread, I blame Crowley and Castiel and Rowena, too.  Plenty of blame to go around for the Darkness.

[Aeryn13]

 

I have no idea what you mean by "whitewashing" it, but the Darkness is as much on Dean as far as I'm concerned.  He foolishly took the Mark, without regard for Cain's warnings.  That's not Sam's fault.

 

Well, it sounded like you blamed it all on Dean and appointed no responsibility to Sam whereas I give most of it to Sam. Was Dean taking on the Mark no questions asked reckless and stupid? Hell yeah. Though we don`t know what Cain`s warnings would have been. Right now, IMO, it would be retcon to say with certainty Cain knew about the darkness. Maybe he did, maybe he didn`t.

 

But so many things happened in between that by the causal chain of events, he is too far removed from the actual event of releasing the darkness for me to have it count much. Rowena, Cas and Crowley get their fair share of responsibility, too. However, Rowena and Crowley are bad guys so I don`t expect much from them. They took place in a stupid venture so I guess I blame them for stupidity most of all. Cas, I would actually blame more than them because he knew it was wrong and he did it anyway. He didn`t know the specifics but he knew there would be bad consequences.

 

Like I said, I`d also blame God and Death for being in the know and yet allowing a great risk. But of all those people, I would put Dean last in terms of responsibility. Yes, he took on the Mark. But it was the decision of those others to remove it from him. He didn`t hold a gun to anyone`s head to do so. And removing it was what caused the Darkness.

 

What I do blame Dean for is killing Death and whatever that brings. Though, I have to allow for some terminal stupidity from Death himself. I don`t think anyone in the entire show ever went out like such a stupid schmuck. Slipping on a supernatural banana peel and breaking his neck would have been less embarassing.

[catrox14]

 

3 minutes ago

Here we go again.  We can say "this would have happened" or "that would have happened", but we have no idea.  I'm not convinced that they would have killed all 3 of them.  All it took was one stab to get Hansel and I have difficulty believing that even a teenage Dean wouldn't be strong enough to shove a little old lady into an oven.  They wrote it that way because they had to, IMO, not because it made sense.

 

 

Dean killed monsters that were killing humans. There was no indication they were going to stop just because a Hunter knew about them.  teen!Dean was outsized and outnumbered. teen!Tina was still tied up and unable to help. Sam was incapacitated by the Witch. Hansel got the upper hand on teen!Dean but teen!Dean used his wits and the only real out he had. Re-age himself.

 

Dean killing them assured that they were not going to kill any more humans. I don't see where that's 'would've or couldve"

[AwesomO4000]

From the "Form and Void" episode thread:

  

And I know that many fans of Sam don't like to admit that the first half of S8 happened and that Sam said and did the things that he did in that season, but it IS canon that Sam was still longing for a normal life as late as S8, while Dean had moved on from even wondering about it and embraced his hunting legacy even more since S6

.

I admit that season 8 hapened - perhaps, maybe, it was the end of season 7 that triggered Sam's change in attitude - however, that does not mean to me that this is what Sam had wanted all along throughout the series, because based on what was shown, this wouldn't make sense. I think it was shown fairly clearly that Sam didn't want a "normal life" based on my examples above. That Carver chose to bring this in again, for me, doesn't negate all of the other evidence that Sam previously hadn't wanted a life away from hunting since about season 2. So the "flip flopping" you were accusing him of happened one time after mid season 2 - in season 8 - and then Sam was back to wanting to hunt again by halfway through that season.

 

In addition to all of the examples that I gave above, there was also "What Is and What Should Never Be..." where Sam said that he was happy things happened the way they did - incluing Dean and him hunting together, "Swap Meat" where Sam was extremely happy to get away from that "normal life" he was plopped into, even though there were strong resemblances to his previous life (i.e. a plan for college, the potential for a girlfriend, etc.), strongly suggesting Sam in no way wanted anything like that any more, most of season 7 where hunting is what made Sam feel "normal" (his word, not mine) and where in season 6 Sam was convincing Dean that it was worth it, because they did more good than not while Dean was lamenting on LIsa being angry with him and what he'd lost there ("Mannequin 3...).

 

I wasn't trying to dispute that season 8 happened. I was disputing your assertion that "SAM is the one who has been shown to us as flip flopping on this particular issue over the course of the series." Based on everything above, I don't think that's true at all. Many Sam detractors may not want to admit that there is a lot of evidence since early season 2 that Sam enjoyed and/or needed hunting as much as Dean, but based on all of the evidence in the series, I believe there is a stronger case for that than Sam always secretly longing for normal all that time. Sam just isn't the "bottle it up inside" type. He would've mentioned and/or bitched about being unhappy with hunting and/or longing for "normal" much more often if that had been the case. However, he didn't. We saw it maybe one time - if you want to count that time in "Chris Angel..." in almost 6 seasons until season 8. I think there's a strong argument that that's a fairly clear stance for a majority of the series until that point in season 8 where he snapped or whatever that was that changed his mind (it happened offscreen, so we weren't shown exactly what it was), and that lasted about as long as Dean's time with Lisa, and then Sam was back to hunting again.

 

He became a hunter again the second that Sam showed up alive-even Lisa knew it.

 

 

That's not what I saw. Dean sent Sam away at first. He said it was to protect Lisa and Ben, but if he had wanted hunting that badly, he would've gone back to hunting then and found another way to protect Lisa and Ben. In my opinion anyway.

 

To me, both brothers have at different times embraced the hunting life while at other times they lamented it, and they've done it about equally in my opinion. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Edited October 21, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[shang yiet]

They are both free to do what they want. They've paid their dues and if they want to give up hunting, they've earned their rest. Dean is free to do what he wants. Sam is not his jailer. Similarly, I'm sure if Sam wants to go back to college, Dean won't argue like he did last time, right?

 

I think it has been shown in the past, Dean has desired normality too and done his fair share of flip flopping and a few times has painted hunting in a negative light.

Edited October 21, 2015 by shang yiet

[Partly]

I think with both of the Winchesters it comes down to the fact that, at this point, neither of them can do "normal" -- as in give up hunting and live a nine-to-five life.

 

Forget the the fact that they are the freakin' Winchesters and every supernatural thing out there knows that -- maybe there would be a way to keep retribution of knocking on their doors -- I doubt it, but we'll go with it.

 

Forget the fact that they both know too much and have seen too much to be "normal", there are a lot of people out there who know too much and seen too much but still manage to fit their broken pieces into a normal life.  It can be done and both of them deserve it.

 

However, both of them CARE too much to walk away.  Both of them know that they have the knowledge and the skills to fight the good fight.  More than that both of them truly love the "saving people, hunting things" part of the gig.  Sure they can do normal for a while, but it's too late for them to walk away.  Frankly, I don't think that they ever could have.

[SueB]

*warning: religious analogy used in discussion*

So...I was thinking about how some people on the 'intrawebs' are conflicted over The Darkness and child Amara being the same person. And I have zip problem with that. And then it occurred to me: maybe they are doing 'Amara as Not!Jesus'. Now they've always stuck pretty close to Ambrahmic-based lore and the only consistent Jesus thing is the use of defensive bits rooted in Christianity (Holy Water made with Rosaries, Latin Exorcisms, Confession as purification). But Kripke was using those standard Horror tropes before he even went to Angels. So... That's almost in the 'doesn't count' category. There was the reference to The Winchester Gospels, Luke, and 'last time we were on earth was 2000 hrs ago'. But otherwise, they are very careful about using Jesus lore.

So, what does this have to do with Adult/child Amara? Well, the parallels were kinda obvious to me. First, we get Amara's 'birth' - her manifestation into human form. She's literally become incarnate (of the flesh). And there was big doings when it happened. Universe-class signs (alarms in Heaven, wailing in the Cage, and Localize Zombie Apocalypse). Then we get The Darkness talking to herself in the form of little Amara in the mirror. Now you've got at least a duality to The Darkness (adult Amara and human form Amara). Now, let me add a bit of speculation: how is one human form Amara going to cause universe-level changes? It's not like she can literally walk up and suck out every soul one at a time. So, I'm going to speculate that Amara has another way of manifesting power. For example, if the roiling smog monster cloud was a form of Amara, then something of that ilk that could cover the earth would be another variant of her power. If you haven't got where I'm going to...adult The Darkness is 'God the Father', child Amara is 'God the Son (Jesus)', and a power that can sweep over the Earth would be equivalent to 'God the Holy Spirit'. In short, like the Christian Trinity, the Darkness has a Trinity of it's own. And thus child Amara and Adult The Darkness are the same entity. This kind of makes sense if you presume Amara is a God-class entity and his mirror (Dark vs Light).

Now in reality, I don't expect them to actually call out either Jesus or the Trinity. I think that's too controversial for Supernatural. But...I think they are using this analogy to write and subtly 'sell' Amara as a God-class threat. And this is why I'm personally comfortable with the dual (at least) nature of Amara because it fits my background. I buy it.

Let me be clear on one point: I think Dabb and the rest are using this as a construct in the Supernatural universe and not remotely implying anything in our actual universe. But as they've constantly plumbed Ambrahmic text (at least Judeo-Christian) for lore... I can see them using this Trinity concept as part of their 'lore'.

Edited October 31, 2015 by SueB

[7kstar]

A light response to Sue B & nothing I state is intended to offend.

 

I don't have a problem with what ever they do, as they don't really stick with what Angels are, or any Christian beliefs.  It's so far removed from it.  Sure you have a God that's abandoned his children and some could say this is similar to Jesus, but it still isn't.  Plenty of books have stories that have many God's fighting over the world and trying to get followers. 

 

I think it is still following the idea that on earth you can not be in your true form if your God, Angel or Demon.  It is necessary to give a chance for the Boys to fight a higher power. 

 

But I would never take what they show as the truth.  I take it with a grain of salt.  So I don't get upset over the ideas. 

 

So far I haven't seen them cross the line.  But for those that it has, I would bet they would just stop watching or would never watch in the first place.

 

I couldn't watch Star Trek, because my mom thought Spock looked like the "Devil" with his ears.  But the reruns kept showing back up, and I did watch them.  Then I tried to explain what was going on, but she would never watch the show.

 

The question is can they trick her while she is childish before she fully grows up.  Maybe it was part of the trick that God created if she ever escaped?

 

Not sure the spoiler is really a spoiler but did it to be safe.  It is an interesting thought of why she had to be born...but then again, the angel that lost her grace was born as a human but still could hear angels.  So is it really that far of a stretch?