All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[catrox14]

ETA: I also think the super dark vengeful Sam in Mystery Spot lent itself to the idea that Sam would go that route, get Ruby's help in finding a way to retrieve Dean even if it meant he would end up evil as a result. I think the potential was definitely there.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think given that Kripke wanted Evil Sam vs Good Dean (it's in the article) by the end of the show (or at least by the end of his tenure) I think Sam going darkside was always planned. 

I guess technically "Sam" and Dean fought at the end of S5, and Sam went dark with the demon blood in S4 and they fought just prior to Lucifer Rising, but even that is kind of dark-grey compared to going full on, Boy-King of the Demons, which is what I've read in various places (and way too many fanfics, lol) over the years. That's what I've read was averted/subverted by the shortened S3.

ETA: Yes, Mystery Spot is a good indicator of what Dark Sam could've been like - but even then he was upset by the thought he might've actually killed Bobby for a few seconds there. There were only five eps after that one, so they must have known the strike was an imminent threat by that time.

Edited February 15, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Wayward Son]

Yeah I believe it was stated somewhere that the shows original ending would have been a tragedy with Dean having to kill boy king Sam for the greater good. 

 

A thing I’m curious about is the fact it has also been stated they’d plans to have Lucifer but NO OTHER angel prior to the summer before season four. They’d have just focused on him as a really bad demon rather than fallen angel. Would it have been plain old boy king Sam Dean killed in the original plan, or was Lucifer in a Sam always to be a thing? Only it’d be classed as demonic rather than angelic possession. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I guess technically "Sam" and Dean fought at the end of S5, and Sam went dark with the demon blood in S4 and they fought just prior to Lucifer Rising, but even that is kind of dark-grey compared to going full on, Boy-King of the Demons, which is what I've read in various places (and way too many fanfics, lol) over the years. That's what I've read was averted/subverted by the shortened S3.

My point was more that I do think the Boy King notion is not entirely fanon. Azazel wanted Sam to rule his demon army and he had demon blood in him and he felt tainted in s2. IMO, it was a possibility for s3 Sam to go darkside based on what was seen with Mystery Spot Sam. I think the potential was definitely there and not just fanon made up out of nothing. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

My point was more that I do think the Boy King notion is not entirely fanon. Azazel wanted Sam to rule his demon army and he had demon blood in him and he felt tainted in s2. IMO, it was a possibility for s3 Sam to go darkside based on what was seen with Mystery Spot Sam. I think the potential was definitely there and not just fanon made up out of nothing. 

Ah, thanks, I get it now.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Ah, thanks, I get it now.

Then with Kripke confirming that for s5 he wanted Evil Sam vs Good Dean, I think the idea of a Darkside Sam was never fully abandoned.

I really want to know when Sera became really involved with the s5 SL. I mean Kripke said he got her involved much sooner when he realized they wouldn't end with 5. I think it happened not long after Fallen Idols. 

[DittyDotDot]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There were only five eps after that one, so they must have known the strike was an imminent threat by that time.

I believe they knew or at least had a fairly good idea it was going to happen during the writing of Dream a Little Dream of Me. I remember seeing an interview with Gamble where she was explaining why she and Cathryn Humphries both had credits on Dream a Little Dream of Me. She said, it had been her episode originally and she'd started the writing of it, but Kripke suddenly popped into her office one day saying he was sorry because he knew she really wanted to do this dream idea, but he needed her to pass that off to Cathryn so she could start writing Jus In Bello--which was the last episode written before the strike. Interesting sidenote, though, that even though the episode was written, no one could comment on it as a writer while it was being shot because the strike had already started by the time it was in production.

This is a somewhat interesting read about the Writer's Strike and how it affected Supernatural: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Writers_Guild_of_America_Strike

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "These Spoilers Suck" thread. No spoilers here:

47 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I just can't agree that Sam has shown latent fear of Lucifer. Even when he was going to the cage in S11 there wasn't much fear written in or shown through the performance*, IMO. And then once Lucifer came on board to help against Amara there was even less, and during the Rick Springfield/President Skeevy run, there was none. Maybe we were supposed to sense some trepidation in S13, but not (again IMO) enough to buy this whole 'I've seen his face and it keeps me awake at night' stuff. Don't get me wrong - I think Sam SHOULD have had all these nightmares and repressed fears & feelings, but I don't think we've been shown that - not at all.

 

ETA: * I mean latent fear, not fear of him in the moment, when he was actively beating the crap out of them. Sam seemed more disdainful than scared when Luci was taking him on the trips down memory lane.

I don't know what to think about the other stuff, and there was no specific reference to Lucifer's true face, but I disagree that Sam wasn't showing any fear about Lucifer in season 11. One of the themes / points of "Just My Imagination" was that Sam thought that he should go to the cage - because of the visions - but that he was scared to do so. He couldn't really talk about his trepidation with Dean, because Dean was - rightfully - skeptical and didn't want to be giving Sam anything at all to run with / grab on to in the "I think I should go to the cage and talk to Lucifer" front. I at first thought Dean was being unreasonable there, but after thinking about it, Sam is often like a dog with a bone if given an opening when he thinks he should do something, so I understand Dean's "I'm going to shut this down with a big, fat 'NO!'" position now. It made sense based on past experience.

But given an onscreen chance, Sam did talk to Sully about it, and Sam seemed pretty scared to me. And the theme of being afraid but having to come to terms with it and/or overlook it because doing it might be important was a pretty big one in the episode. It's why at the end of the episode Sam said that he thought he should go through with it - with likely guilt also being a factor - and that he shouldn't let the lump in his throat be an excuse not to do it.

As for why he seemed more disdainful than scared at the beginning when confronting Lucifer, in my opinion, that was because Sam - ever hopeful - believed his visions were from God, and he had faith that he would be okay, because his visions showed him not being scared and nothing bad happening... Now when things shifted, there was a big difference. Sam's bravado lasted up until he told Lucifer he wasn't scared, because the current situation was exactly how his visions said it would be, so he had no need to be scared, and Lucfer dropped the bomb on him of "oh yeah, about those visions..." Once Sam learned that they really came from Lucifer and he had no reason to feel secure in his faith, he was very scared, as evidenced by the tear running down his cheek and horrified expression once the truth sunk in.

I think the only thing that got Sam through was that ever hopeful Sam latched on to the next thing he thought he could have faith in - that Dean would come help him.

So for me it's actually less that Sam might have been afraid of Lucifer but we hadn't seen it so much it that's bugging me about the situation, and more the

Spoiler

Sam has lost faith

aspect of it that I'm having trouble with. And I think one is related to the other. In that if Sam - for whatever reason - has

Spoiler

lost his faith in things

- then this would tend to magnify his outward fear, in my opinion.

[Wayward Son]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Just couldn't leave it there, huh? LOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!

 

PS...  As far as Dean and Sam know, Cas was back in heaven (where he was taking Samandriel's (who he had just murdered) dead body), and he before he left he told Dean he was fine re: the bleeding eye.

 

 

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He blipped out after killing Samandriel, didn't he? Didn't they presume he'd gone back to Heaven?

Yes Castiel told them that, but the brothers clearly didn't believe that as shown by their reaction to his disappearance and the conversation that immediately followed.

 

Quote

INT. RUFUS’ CABIN – DAY

SAM spray-paints the Enochian angel-warding symbol on the door.

SAM
Okay. That should do it. Cas can't see or hear us now.

DEAN
Okay, what the hell?

SAM
I know.

DEAN
I told you something was off with him since he got back from Purgatory.

SAM
So, what, you think someone's messing with him or something?

DEAN
Who?

SAM
Angels?

DEAN
Why would the angels have him kill another angel?

SAM shrugs.

IMO it is pretty obvious from this conversation that they knew something was wrong with Castiel and rather than showing us the brothers trying to do something about it the following episode doesn't so much as give him a mention and ends with them LARPing and making silly braveheart speeches. I've never been the biggest fan of LARP due to the tonal dissonance between it and Torn and Frayed. 

 

I honestly wasn't looking to start a debate. I was simply saying that for me personally nothing about the brothers response to Castiel's absence this season could be deemed offensive. Especially when I think back to how the show has handled his absence in the past. Others are of course free to see their  response to his disappearance in Torn and Frayed a lot more understandable than I do :) 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Wayward Son
Nothing about their season 13 response was offensive to me

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

honestly wasn't looking to start a debate. I was simply saying that for me personally nothing about the brothers response to Castiel's absence this season could be deemed offensive. Especially when I think back to how the show has handled his absence in the past. Others are of course free to see their  response to his disappearance in Torn and Frayed a lot more understandable than I do :) 

 

this show suffers from having to fill 23 episodes.  It was Torn and Frayed was a super heavy episode in a series of heavy eps and then they decide they need to let the audience breathe and "exhale". I think Singer or someone has spoken about this.  So they write an upbeat episode and IMO it's always wrong to do that. It's too much of a tonal shift that damages the characters. I think LARP and the Real Girl after Torn and Frayed was one of those things and had the unfortunate unintended side effect of potentially implying that Sam and Dean don't care about Castiel. But the RL reasons are they have to get Castiel off screen because he's not in every episode. They had to show the brothers getting along again after their crap.  And so they did after that heavy thing.

And I think given Dean staying in Purgatory forever and a day to find Cas, doesn't support the notion that he doesn't care about Castiel in s8. 

[Wayward Son]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

this show suffers from having to fill 23 episodes.  It was Torn and Frayed was a super heavy episode in a series of heavy eps and then they decide they need to let the audience breathe and "exhale". I think Singer or someone has spoken about this.  So they write an upbeat episode and IMO it's always wrong to do that. It's too much of a tonal shift that damages the characters. I think LARP and the Real Girl after Torn and Frayed was one of those things and had the unfortunate unintended side effect of potentially implying that Sam and Dean don't care about Castiel. But the RL reasons are they have to get Castiel off screen because he's not in every episode. They had to show the brothers getting along again after their crap.  And so they did after that heavy thing.

And I think given Dean staying in Purgatory forever and a day to find Cas, doesn't support the notion that he doesn't care about Castiel in s8. 

I actually agree with your post. I should have clarified my complaint was more about how the writers handled Castiel's absence. IMO the general set up of this season i.e. Castiel was in trouble, but the brothers didn't know it made their lack of Cas worry make more sense than season 8 when they had the brothers know he was in danger. So I suppose my comment is more along the lines of I think the Dabb administration has handled Misha/Cas' necessary off screen time better than Carver handled it in the past :) 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Wayward Son

[Pondlass1]

I never know if I'm posting in the right thread. So apologies if this doesn't belong here.  I was going to post in the thread where the  brawn/brain assets of the brothers was being debated but this isn't a complaint about the writing (for once). 

I got to thinking.... the brothers pretty much spend 24/7 together.  They've argued, fought, hugged, even died for each other ... but we've never ever seen them kick back, chill out and debate  music, movies, sports etc.  The brothers are different personalities.   If they didn't live in a supernatural world and killed monsters for a living, I think they'd be something akin to the Sam & Dean of 'What is and What Should Never Be'.  

I've always found it interesting that the Siren didn't tempt womanizing Dean by being a busty beauty. The script surprised me for a change.  The Siren assumed the form of a guy.  A guy who zeroed in on what would make Dean relax the ever-present vigilance and distrust.  We saw an animated Dean in those scenes, chatting about music and interests outside of tragedy and responsibility.  It was quite cool to see this side of Dean.  And kind of clever of the writers not to go the usual booby route.

Also - and I'm only bringing this cuz I'm  a Dean girl - but the level playing field fight between the brothers at the end of the episode... Dean won that!!! ;)

[DeeDee79]

9 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I got to thinking.... the brothers pretty much spend 24/7 together.  They've argued, fought, hugged, even died for each other ... but we've never ever seen them kick back, chill out and debate  music, movies, sports etc. 

I agree! Just like this exchange from Inside Man when they had no pending cases: DEAN: All right. So, uh, snow day. I say we get drunk and shoot crap. SAM: Yeah, except we do that every day. This leads me to think that they obviously have some days of leisure; I want to see them! If not for the plot of the ep it would have been fun to see Sam and Dean eat nachos and hustle pool :)

Edited February 24, 2018 by DeeDee79

[companionenvy]

7 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

They've argued, fought, hugged, even died for each other ... but we've never ever seen them kick back, chill out and debate  music, movies, sports etc.

Some of this is just a narrative issue. We've also never seen them brush their teeth or go grocery shopping, because those things aren't part of the story. I do get the impression, however, that earlier seasons allowed the brothers to be in sync and enjoy each other's company a little more often than I think they do now. Now they rely a little more on the Odd Couple shtick for laughs, which exaggerates the differences a bit, IMO. 

It would be nice to have a change of pace episodes in which the brothers have a more normal day.

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

Some of this is just a narrative issue. We've also never seen them brush their teeth or go grocery shopping, because those things aren't part of the story. I do get the impression, however, that earlier seasons allowed the brothers to be in sync and enjoy each other's company a little more often than I think they do now. Now they rely a little more on the Odd Couple shtick for laughs, which exaggerates the differences a bit, IMO. 

It would be nice to have a change of pace episodes in which the brothers have a more normal day.

We've talked about this a few times in the past, and even Jensen and Jared have discussed it.  I really wish they'd go for it before the show is over.  I'd like to see Dean cleaning the kitchen.  I think we're supposed to assume that they live normal lives between hunts.  Things like going to the movies, having a beer in a bar, etc.  What I wonder is if they have any other casual friends.  I know they love each other, and even enjoy each other's company, but certainly once in a while you'd like to talk to someone else.

[Wayward Son]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

We've talked about this a few times in the past, and even Jensen and Jared have discussed it.  I really wish they'd go for it before the show is over.  I'd like to see Dean cleaning the kitchen.  I think we're supposed to assume that they live normal lives between hunts.  Things like going to the movies, having a beer in a bar, etc.  What I wonder is if they have any other casual friends.  I know they love each other, and even enjoy each other's company, but certainly once in a while you'd like to talk to someone else.

@catrox14 is usually better at remembering this type of thing, but I like to think Castiel spends time with the brothers on their days off. I can’t remember specifics off the top of my head (hopefully catrox will be able to), but I’m fairly certain I vaguely recall references to movies Dean and Castiel (and presumably Sam too) have watched together off screen. 

[MysteryGuest]

26 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

@catrox14 is usually better at remembering this type of thing, but I like to think Castiel spends time with the brothers on their days off. I can’t remember specifics off the top of my head (hopefully catrox will be able to), but I’m fairly certain I vaguely recall references to movies Dean and Castiel (and presumably Sam too) have watched together off screen.

I believe they just made reference to that in the Tombstone episode this season, talking about Dean making Cas watch the movie, Tombstone.  I can imagine them introducing him to all sorts of movies and things over the years, trying to help "humanize" him.  It would be fun to see some of those moments.

The reality is that it would simply be fun to see more scenes of TFW together, and that includes Crowley.  I love how they all play off one another.  I'm just not enamored with most of the additions to the cast recently, with the exception of Jack.  I think he actually fits in well with TFW, but I don't see how that can last, considering what and who he is.

Edited February 24, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[Wayward Son]

34 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I believe they just made reference to that in the Tombstone episode this season, talking about Dean making Cas watch the movie, Tombstone.  I can imagine them introducing him to all sorts of movies and things over the years, trying to help "humanize" him.  It would be fun to see some of those moments.

The reality is that it would simply be fun to see more scenes of TFW together, and that includes Crowley.  I love how they all play off one another.  I'm just not enamored with most of the additions to the cast recently, with the exception of Jack.  I think he actually fits in well with TFW, but I don't see how that can last, considering what and who he is.

 

Im going to reply to the bit in bold in the speculation only thread. It’s just going to be thoughts of mine rather than anything based on spoilers hence posting there rather than Spoilers and Speculations :)

Edited February 24, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

56 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

@catrox14 is usually better at remembering this type of thing, but I like to think Castiel spends time with the brothers on their days off. I can’t remember specifics off the top of my head (hopefully catrox will be able to), but I’m fairly certain I vaguely recall references to movies Dean and Castiel (and presumably Sam too) have watched together off screen. 

Dean and Cas watched Tombstone together. Dean made him watch it with him. LOL I love it. Cas watched a ton of Netflix in s11 when he was having issues with PTSD.  I think it's more than reasonable to think that Dean, and Sam watched other things with Cas at that time. 

Dean and Cas went to a brothel together at Dean's behest. I don't think they likely did that one again LOL

Dean and Cas went on a beer run together when Dean thought the world was going to end. And the way it went down was Dean asking Sam who I think he knew would say no, and then Dean was "Cas, let's go".  I suspect given Cas' quick move to join him, it's not the first time they've gone on beer runs together.

Dean and Cas have gone out to eat together as seen in s10 when they weren't on a hunt. He might have done it to ask him to kill him but point is they went to lunch or dinner and we've seen them eating together many times.  

They've apparently had breakfast together in the bunker from time to time or at least coffee in the mornings as seen in s12.

They had burritos in the bunker in s9.

I think all of those examples are enough to extrapolate that the boys and Cas do a lot of random life stuff together. JMHO

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over fro the bitter spoilers thread. No spoilers:

4 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I agree only to the extent that Dean was looking for ways to get Sam out without letting the others out.  During that year, Dean had in his possession the means to open the Cage at any time:  he had the four rings and the invocation.  He chose not to use them because that would have let Lucifer and Michael out as well.

(This, to me, is not inconsistent with his being ticked at Sam for not even thinking about looking for him when Dean went to Purgatory.  Sam did not even try to find out where Dean was, much less try to get him out.  And unlike the end of Season 5, getting Dean out of Purgatory would not have restarted the Apocalypse.)

I don't think we knew this for sure. Opening the door to purgatory had been portrayed in season 6 as a very risky thing, because who knew what might accidentally get out. Elanor herself didn't want anything else coming out of purgatory and killed H. P. Lovecraft and his literary group so that they wouldn't open the door again to let anything else out. Sam couldn't know if Dick Roman had actually been destroyed totally or his monster self essence had just been sent back to purgatory, where an attempt to open a door might mean him coming back again.

At that time, Sam also had no way that I know of to know that there was a safe way to open a door to purgatory from his side. He knew Castiel's method released all the souls and the leviathan, but not what would happen if he opened that portal without an angel vessel for the souls to jump into. He knew H. P. Lovecraft's method let out Eleanor, and so didn't know what else might've been able to come out while he was hoping Dean might escape even if he could duplicate that means of opening up the doorway. Sam and Dean didn't learn about the rogue reapers being able to get there easy-peasy until the writers decided to make that a thing. And that's assuming Sam suspected that that was where Dean even was.

And considering all of this, it's kind of risky for Sam and Dean to open portals to the AU world, too, but apparently they do that kind of stuff now.

[DeeDee79]

Quote

And Yes!! To Chuck being God.  It gives Dean too much power in my opinion because Chuck let's Dean change the story (season 5) and answered Dean's call in season 11.

I'm baffled by this. When did Dean change the story in season 5 and what call was answered in season 11? From what I saw Sam & Dean along with Cas chose to flip the Apocalypse script in season 5 and let things play out the way that they did in Swan Song. Not getting how Dean changed that story. Also, Metatron spent Don't Call Me Shurley lecturing Chuck about his actions and turning his back on humanity and Amara is who ultimately decided not to destroy the world when Chuck was near death. Yeah, not getting where Dean had all of the power in these scenarios. 

[Wayward Son]

49 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought Cas left Sam's soul behind intentionally and he knew it was gone? And he was lying?  I'm so confused right now. LOL help?

 

It's debatable, since a lot of Castiel's words and actions in season six are questionable. Personally, I've always found that the least favorable interpretation of the scene. Although that could also be due to the fact I've often seen the hardcore Cas haters use "Cas left Sam's soul to rot" as an example of what a monster he is so I've learnt to be a bit defensive. Don't worry, I'm not accusing you of being a Cas hater just general musing on my feelings on the topic.

 

Anyway, to get back on track personally I've never seen it as a purposeful action on Cas' part for the following reasons.

 

1) If I understand the timeline correctly didn't he raise Sam before the deal with Crowley was made? IIRC Swan Song showed us Soulless Sam creepily watching Dean from outside the house the night he first went to Lisa's? Then the deal was made later while Dean was raking the yard during his time with her? If this is the case then Castiel would have no reason to purposely leave Sam's soul behind in the cage when he raised him.

2) While Castiel's actions throughout season six were dodgy as hell he was still shown to care for Sam and Dean. For instance in The Man Who Would Be King he threatens to shut the whole operation down if Crowley laid a finger on either brother. I just don't see him bearing Sam the ill will required to purposely leave him in the cage particularly that early.

3) Castiel's greatest flaw in Season 6 is arguably hubris and during his narration in TMWWBK that's certainly what Cas seems to most chastise himself for. Even his breaking of Sam's wall was less about malice and more about distracting Dean long enough to break open purgatory. A course of action Cas found acceptable because in his hubris he believed he'd be able to easily fix Sam when everything is said and done.

 

I also believe the following dialogue from his narration of TMWWBK is pretty telling.

 

Quote

CASTIEL And so I knew what I had to do next. Once again, I went to Harrow Hell, to free Sam from Lucifer's cage. It was nearly impossible, but I was so full of confidence, of mission. I see now that was arrogance...Hubris...Because, of course, I hadn't truly raised Sam -- not all of him.(flashback to 'Unforgiven': Sam is beating a cop unconscious; flashback to 'Live Free or Twi-Hard': Sam watches Dean being turned; flashback to 'Appointment in Samarra': Sam raises his dagger to stab Bobby) Sometimes we're lucky enough to be given a warning. (back in front of Lisa's house, Sam turns and walks away- directly past Castiel) This should have been mine

Here he is talking of his failure in raising Sam. He describes himself as being full of arrogance and hubris because he hadn't raised Sam. -- not all of him He also states he should have realised something was off when Sam walked away from Lisa's (it should have been his warning) but it wasn't presumably due to the aforementioned arrogance and hubris. This dialogue is the primary reason I'm completely convinced Castiel left Sam's soul behind in the cage by accident. Why would he have described freeing Sam from the cage as arrogance and hubris if he purposely only raised part of him?  If he set out to raise Sam's body but not soul from the cage and succeeded in doing so then it's not arrogance that's just an understanding of his abilities. However, assuming he could do both but in fact could only raise one could be described as arrogant. Why would he say Sam walking away should have been his warning sign? If he purposely raised Sam soulless what exactly should it have warned him about? This dialogue is meant to be seen as internal dialogue and a form of prayer so he had no reason to lie about it either IMO. 

 

4) His defensive 

Quote

 

 How could you think that?

 

When Sam asks did he raise him soulless on purpose seemed rather genuine to me. However, I'd accept this is probably the most questionable of the points I've made because Cas was a liar who lies throughout much of season six. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

Thanks! Katy M, also, set me straight in the episode thread too, so I'm okay with Cas not being able to detect a human soul. :)

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Cas left Sam's soul to rot" as an example of what a monster he is so I've learnt to be a bit defensive. Don't worry, I'm not accusing you of being a Cas hater just general musing on my feelings on the topic.

 My question had literally nothing to do with judging Cas AT ALL. I was trying to ascertain if Cas COULD OR COULD NOT detect souls for the purpose of understanding Cas in Good Intentions.

But sure thanks for suggesting I hate Cas. I don't. He's my 2nd favorite character in the show.  But thanks.

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Thanks! Katy M, also, set me straight in the episode thread too, so I'm okay with Cas not being able to detect a human soul. :)

No problem. Sorry for the rambles. Season 6 Cas is something I've had a lot of time to think on LOL. 

 

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But sure thanks for suggesting I hate Cas. I don't. He's my 2nd favorite character in the show.  But thanks.

I didn't do that? I specifically stated I wasn't accusing you of that. I just stated that this is an argument I've seen used by open Cas haters and argued against thus developing developed thoughts on as a result. My whole "I wasn't accusing you of being one of those" was meant to clarify that I don't believe every single person who holds the belief Cas rose Sam soulless on purpose is a hater. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

I didn't do that? I specifically stated I wasn't accusing you of that. I just stated that this is an argument I've seen used by open Cas haters and argued against thus developing developed thoughts on as a result. My whole "I wasn't accusing you of being one of those" was meant to clarify that I don't believe every single person who holds the belief Cas rose Sam soulless on purpose is a hater. 

Okay. Thanks for clarifying.

[trxr4kids]

26 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I just stated that this is an argument I've seen used by open Cas haters and argued against thus developing developed thoughts on as a result.

Let me know where the Cas haters are hanging out so I'll be sure to avoid them. ; )

[Wayward Son]

9 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Let me know where the Cas haters are hanging out so I'll be sure to avoid them. ; )

That I know of predominately Twitter and theyre easy to find in the comments on tweets from the CW and SPN CW accounts. You’ll find them. I’m fairly certain singling out specific fans is a bannable offence so I’m afraid I can’t be more specific than that LOL. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Wayward Son

[trxr4kids]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

That I know of predominately Twitter. I’m fairly certain singling out specific fans is a bannable offence so I’m afraid I can’t be more specific than that LOL. Check out the comments on tweets from the CW and SPN CW accounts. You’ll find them. 

Phew good thing I'm not on twitter then. It begs the question how something that's predominately on twitter is relevant here on PTV, but what do I know. 

[MysteryGuest]

I just watched the pilot again tonight, and it still holds up as far as I'm concerned.  The special effects might have been a bit lame, but the chemistry between Jensen and Jared is still there.  And I miss all of the old folklore stories.  Even though I've seen the episode way more times than is considered normal, it's still a good ghost story.  I really wish we had writers who were capable of writing something actually scary.  

My goodness they were young, though.  While they've both aged very well, it's sort of sad to see how innocent they were then, even though they'd grown up knowing about monsters.  They both seem so beaten down by life now, which is perfectly understandable, considering what they've been through.  But it does make me wish even more that the constant world-ending crises on the backs of these two men would stop for a while.  It's really kind of absurd when you think about it.

[Res]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I just watched the pilot again tonight, and it still holds up as far as I'm concerned.  The special effects might have been a bit lame, but the chemistry between Jensen and Jared is still there.  And I miss all of the old folklore stories.  Even though I've seen the episode way more times than is considered normal, it's still a good ghost story.  I really wish we had writers who were capable of writing something actually scary.  

My goodness they were young, though.  While they've both aged very well, it's sort of sad to see how innocent they were then, even though they'd grown up knowing about monsters.  They both seem so beaten down by life now, which is perfectly understandable, considering what they've been through.  But it does make me wish even more that the constant world-ending crises on the backs of these two men would stop for a while.  It's really kind of absurd when you think about it.

Like Dean stated in S7, based on the past two world almost ending events and another one coming, maybe it's just meant to end already. 

But I wholeheartedly agree, the early seasons do still hold up well unlike the past few seasons where I can hardly tell one boring episode from another.

[spnkitty]

The only episode that I liked from Season 12 is "Regarding Dean" Jensen's acting was spot on in that episode, I loved it! :) Other then that, season 12 didn't impress me at all.

[spnkitty]

I thought season 10 was their best season ever! I loved it all, my favorite episodes from this season were Fan Fiction & Soul Surivior, those were great episodes & I loved Demon!Dean! I miss him.

[gonzosgirrl]

40 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I believe it applies to anything humanoid. They generally show someone with an ax or machete swinging at a neck, then cut away to a reaction shot of some sort and come back to the head being severed. It gives the impression that you saw the machete going through the head because it's done so quickly, but you really didn't. Part of that is for special effects reasons, but I remember reading an article where Kripke was laughing at all the nasty things you can show being done to an already-dead body, but that you couldn't show the actual act of a head being severed from the body. 

It seems like Standards and Practices are not uniform across all networks, though, so this may not be the case for all TV, just the CW.

From the S05 thread just in case.

I could swear we saw them cutting the head off of a Leviathan(?). In my mind I'm picturing seeing it from the back, Dean (or Sam?) swinging the blade and the head coming off. And in Purgatory, Dean has the blade pressed up against the vamp's neck when questioning him, then pushes it through. If we don't actually see it (I'll have to go re-watch) that is riding the thinnest line, ever. LOL.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

From the S05 thread just in case.

I could swear we saw them cutting the head off of a Leviathan(?). In my mind I'm picturing seeing it from the back, Dean (or Sam?) swinging the blade and the head coming off. And in Purgatory, Dean has the blade pressed up against the vamp's neck when questioning him, then pushes it through. If we don't actually see it (I'll have to go re-watch) that is riding the thinnest line, ever. LOL.

This is correct. . They showed Dean lopping off a vampire head and a  Leviathan head. We saw the blade take off the head

Sam cut off Gordon's head in S6.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is correct. . They showed Dean lopping off a vampire head and a  Leviathan head. We saw the blade take off the head

Sam cut off Gordon's head in S6.

Thank you! I think I was conflating that kill with another one where MoC Dean has a monster (vamp?) up against a wall with the blade at his throat. Help?

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

From the S05 thread just in case.

I could swear we saw them cutting the head off of a Leviathan(?). In my mind I'm picturing seeing it from the back, Dean (or Sam?) swinging the blade and the head coming off. And in Purgatory, Dean has the blade pressed up against the vamp's neck when questioning him, then pushes it through. If we don't actually see it (I'll have to go re-watch) that is riding the thinnest line, ever. LOL.

Like I said, Standards and Practices makes no sense, they contradict and change so that may not be the case anymore. Plus, as I said, some of it is for special effects reasons and special effects have evolved over the years so they can show more. 

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam cut off Gordon's head in S6.

You mean S3. We didn't see the wire go through his neck, though. We saw it start to cut and then they cut to Sam struggling and Gordon struggling, then Gordon's head falls out of frame, but the wire itself wasn't in frame anymore when the head was actually severed.

Edited April 1, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

You mean S3.

Sorry that was a typo.  I know it wasn't s6.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Like I said, Standards and Practices makes no sense, they contradict and change so that may not be the case anymore. Plus, as I said, some of it is for special effects reasons and special effects have evolved over the years so they can show more. 

See @catrox14's gif above :)  I guess cutting off a head is always going to be a special effect, lol - but there's nothing left to the imagination there.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

hank you! I think I was conflating that kill with another one where MoC Dean has a monster (vamp?) up against a wall with the blade at his throat. Help?

That one was in s9 and I remember Dean was shown pushing the blade through his neck but I can't remember if they showed his head falling off. I remember fandom flipped over it because Sam scolded Dean for doing it.

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

See @catrox14's gif above :)  I guess cutting off a head is always going to be a special effect, lol - but there's nothing left to the imagination there.

Nothing to the imagination.

Also, in Slash Fiction we saw Dean lop off Leviathan!Dean's head from start to finish IIRC. 

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

See @catrox14's gif above :)  I guess cutting off a head is always going to be a special effect, lol - but there's nothing left to the imagination there.

Right, as I said, things could've changed. My comment was based from an interview with Kripke back in the day, and I believe that holds true to his run of the show. However, as technology and attitudes changed, that "rule" could've changed too. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That one was in s9 and I remember Dean was shown pushing the blade through his neck but I can't remember if they showed his head falling off. I remember fandom flipped over it because Sam scolded Dean for doing it.

Ah, yes! The 'Look at me, bitch!' scene - thank you! I just watched - it's a close thing. Dean pushes the blade through, then we see all three faces (Dean, Sam, vamp) and then the body falls away from the severed head. I'd call it a yes.

ETA: found it!

Edited April 1, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Also, in Slash Fiction we saw Dean lop off Leviathan!Dean's head from start to finish IIRC. 

We might've also seen Bobby chop off Chet's head in that episode as well... I think that may be the "from behind" shot  @gonzosgirrl mentioned remembering. Or there might've been a last moment camera "turn away." I seem to remember Chet's head bouncing off the floor, however... And Bobby saying something funny in triumph. (I love that episode).

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

We might've also seen Bobby chop off Chet's head in that episode as well... I think that may be the "from behind" shot  @gonzosgirrl mentioned remembering. Or there might've been a last moment camera "turn away." I seem to remember Chet's head bouncing off the floor, however... And Bobby saying something funny in triumph. (I love that episode).

I think they showed a lot of lopping off  heads in s7 from swing to head falling off and the follow through. LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

If Dean or Jensen ever looked at me like he's looking at that vamp right before he kills him, he wouldn't need to chop off my head. I'd drop dead on the spot.

[Wayward Son]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Except, he's actually not his father.

Really? Beating the shit out of someone who can't possibly fight back is the best way to show your disapproval? I think it was one of the worst things Castiel ever did. It made him no better than any of the other dicks with wings.

Big spoiler.

  Hide contents

And sadly, it's not the last time Cas does this to Dean -beats a human man who can't fight back. Makes it almost satisfying when he tries it again a few years later only to find Dean isn't quite so defenseless this time.

 

When exactly are you referring to in the bit in bold? The only other time I recall Cas beating on Dean like this was the crypt scene in Goodbye Stranger, and seeing as Cas has been tortured,  mind controlled and conditioned for months prior to this fight it would be pretty gross to blame the victim for his actions here. So when exactly did Cas beat on Dean other than Point of No Return? And for what it’s worth I agree Cas was wrong to beat him up during PoNR?

 

Also, I don’t recall Cas trying to ‘beat on’ MOC Dean either. He tried to restrain them. There’s a difference. 

Edited April 9, 2018 by Wayward Son

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "The Thing" episode thread:

4 hours ago, SueB said:

I will admit I didn't know photographs were a Sam thing.  Generally figuring out what's going on is a Sam thing but I hadn't known about the photo thing.  This will require a COMPLETE series rewatch so as to fully appreciate this (because I am certain you are right). 

It seemed to be more prevalent in the earlier years, though I think it still pops up every once in a while later on. Sometimes it's detailed pictures also, and I'm including some of those here, too. - Here are some early examples that I remember that you can look at (Though there are likely more, too):

Bloody Mary
Faith
Something Wicked
Provenance
(During this time, Sam was also good at remembering and connecting what he saw in his visions with actual people)
Hollywood Babylon
In "All Hell... Pt 1" Sam recognized the bell from Cold Oak from somewhere.

I remember less off the top of my head from the later years, but "Time After Time..." comes to mind. "the Mentalists" had photo recognition from both Sam and Dean. And I think "Mother's Little Helper" and that painting one - "Paint it Black."

But I guess actually maybe it's more gone by the wayside than I thought it had - huh. Same with Dean and his symbol recognition. That, too, used to be a much more prevalent thing. I guess as the Monster of the Week episodes were more replaced by angels and demons and such that those kinds of details started to be left behind maybe. Hmmm guess it is only me that remembered that this used to be a thing.

[catrox14]

18 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Also, I don’t recall Cas trying to ‘beat on’ MOC Dean either. He tried to restrain them. There’s a difference. 

And that was MoC!Dean. Cas couldn't smite MoC!Dean but at least that would have been an even fight at that time.

It wasn't even between s4 Dean and s4 Castiel. Nor s8 Dean and s8 Castiel,  who I don't blame on that one because Naomi was controlling him.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the "The Thing" episode thread:

It seemed to be more prevalent in the earlier years, though I think it still pops up every once in a while later on. Sometimes it's detailed pictures also, and I'm including some of those here, too. - Here are some early examples that I remember that you can look at (Though there are likely more, too):

Bloody Mary
Faith
Something Wicked
Provenance
(During this time, Sam was also good at remembering and connecting what he saw in his visions with actual people)
Hollywood Babylon
In "All Hell... Pt 1" Sam recognized the bell from Cold Oak from somewhere.

I remember less off the top of my head from the later years, but "Time After Time..." comes to mind. "the Mentalists" had photo recognition from both Sam and Dean. And I think "Mother's Little Helper" and that painting one - "Paint it Black."

But I guess actually maybe it's more gone by the wayside than I thought it had - huh. Same with Dean and his symbol recognition. That, too, used to be a much more prevalent thing. I guess as the Monster of the Week episodes were more replaced by angels and demons and such that those kinds of details started to be left behind maybe. Hmmm guess it is only me that remembered that this used to be a thing.

No no.  I insist on double checking just to be sure.  

[AwesomO4000]

25 minutes ago, SueB said:

No no.  I insist on double checking just to be sure.  

Please let me know what conclusions you come to and what details you find. : )

[Wayward Son]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And that was MoC!Dean. Cas couldn't smite MoC!Dean but at least that would have been an even fight at that time.

It wasn't even between s4 Dean and s4 Castiel. Nor s8 Dean and s8 Castiel,  who I don't blame on that one because Naomi was controlling him.

I agree that MoC Cas and Dean would have been an even fight, actually it was the one instance where Dean proved to have the superior physical strength. However, IMO Castiel’s intention was to restrain not beat on MOC Dean. 

 

My original post was to @gonzosgirrl whose post characterisated Castiel as a recurring physical abuser of Dean until he finally got his comeuppance when MOC Dean gave him a beating back. I was asking  when exactly did these frequent beatings of Dean occur. As far as I recall their fights have been. 

 

• The alley scene in Point of No Return (I already conceded Cas was wrong here) 

• The Crypt Scene in Goodbye Stranger (IMO its pretty gross to blame Cas for this, or see it as some sort of reflection of their relatjonship, since he’d been subjected to months of torture, brainwashing and conditioning prior to this) 

• The fight between MoC Dean and Cas in the bunker. This was actually a fight where Dean was the physically stronger one, but even if he hadn’t been IMO Cas’ aim was to restrain rather than gratuitously beat on Dean. 

 

Are there any significant Cas vs Dean scenes I’m missing which warrant this characterisation of him as Dean’s long term abuser?   Because IMO one scene eight seasons ago isn’t enough to deem it an abuser - victim dynamic. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Wayward Son