All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[ParadoxLost]

A pagan God just pulled Sam's fingernails out with pliers.  Aagh.  Merry Christmas!

Any other Christmas specials that I've forgotten exist?

Its been a really long time since I did a rewatch.  I've got to say that I'm glad I let it go so long.  Its been long enough that everything but the major plot points from early seasons have become fuzzy .  A lot of the episodes feel like I'm watching them for the first time.  I really do love the early seasons of this show.  I think I may love them more on this rewatch than the first time around.  I certainly have an appreciation for stuff that I remember being frustrated with the first time around.

Season 2 and season 3 (so far) are really strong.  I think its because they did such a good job balancing out the different types of episodes without getting completely bogged down in the myth arc and misery/hopelessness like later seasons. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by ParadoxLost

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think its because they did such a good job balancing out the different types of episodes without getting completely bogged down in the myth arc and misery/hopelessness like later seasons. 

This right here is what I also especially liked about the earlier seasons.

[Pondlass1]

I'm just rewatching the early seasons on Netflix right now. So much canon has been trampled over the years, it can be frustrating to watch.  But I honestly had forgotten how good this show used to be.  And our boys knew how to fight back then.... plus their research seemed more indepth and clever.

I also had forgotten that Dean said 'my car'.  When did he start calling her Baby?  I thought it was from the beginning, obviously not.  

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I also had forgotten that Dean said 'my car'.  When did he start calling her Baby?  I thought it was from the beginning, obviously not.  

I believe the first time was with Baby's triumphant return in Bloodlust when Dean says, "Don't listen to him, baby. He doesn't understand us." 

[Jeddah]

Fans just called her the Metallicar.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

Fans just called her the Metallicar.

I never understood where that come from.

I always called her the Impala, Dean's Car, or  Baby. Did anyone in the show call her Metallicar?

[Jeddah]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I never understood where that come from.

I always called her the Impala, Dean's Car, or  Baby. Did anyone in the show call her Metallicar?

I’m pretty sure it started on TWOP.

ETA: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Metallicar

According to that it originated on TWOP shortly after the show started, and Kripke knew people used that name. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Jeddah

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I never understood where that come from.

I always called her the Impala, Dean's Car, or  Baby. Did anyone in the show call her Metallicar?

No, it was a just a jokey nickname that got traction online during the first season.

[catrox14]

57 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I’m pretty sure it started on TWOP.

ETA: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Metallicar

According to that it originated on TWOP shortly after the show started, and Kripke knew people used that name. 

Ah kind of like the Hand of Ipecac...

The Metallicar makes is sound like Baby was a Transformer rather than Metallica's Car or something LOL. Definitely not a nickname I'm inclined to ever use. LOL

Edited December 22, 2017 by catrox14

[Jeddah]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Ah kind of like the Hand of Ipecac...

The Metallicar makes is sound like Baby was a Transformer rather than Metallica's Car or something LOL. Definitely not a nickname I'm inclined to ever use. LOL

I think it’s a badass nickname, but the name Baby makes her sound more like the family member she obviously is.

[ParadoxLost]

9 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

This right here is what I also especially liked about the earlier seasons.

There have also been several episodes about the origins of ghosts and demons that were kind of tragic and sympathetic, especially because several of them tied into Dean or Sam having to confront the possibility of becoming the thing they hunt. 

Dean meeting the reaper in the hospital and learning that he would eventually become a vengeful spirit if he couldn't let go.

Sam leaning yellow eyes put demon blood in him as a baby.

Dean deciding he didn't want to die from his cross roads deal because of the end game that he would become a demon.

Sam getting possessed an killing a hunter.

I thought the episodes with Sam's werewolf (as a result of a mugging) hook up and Tricia Helfer's episode as a ghost who didn't know she was one were really great.

Some how that came across more hopeful than recent seasons because every monster wasn't just bad or an asshole.  There was some depth and complexity.

Its too bad. I think they could have done a lot better with the MoL indiscriminately killing any supernatural than they did based on some of the S2/S3 episodes.

On a completely unrelated topic.  There are SG-1 guest appearances everywhere.  Three so far that I noticed.  Plus Sam and Dean keep taking turns at playing Daniel Jackson, resurrection poster boy.

I hate the ghost facers. That just had to be said.

Edited December 22, 2017 by ParadoxLost
Sam and Dean may have just redeemed GhostFacers with an electromagnet

[catrox14]

I've been doing an in-depth s4 rewatch and I have questions.

I don't know how Dean wasn't erased from the timeline as soon as Azazel killed John.

[gonzosgirrl]

I think the only way to make it work is to accept that Dean is alive because Azazel killed John. If the events of the episode didn't happen, forcing Mary's hand in running to John, John and Mary wouldn't have married right then, changing the timeline of Dean's conception. Then you have to accept the infinite loop explanation to have any of it hold up. 

[DittyDotDot]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I've been doing an in-depth s4 rewatch and I have questions.

I don't know how Dean wasn't erased from the timeline as soon as Azazel killed John.

I look at it like this: the only way Dean would've been erased from the timeline is if Mary didn't make the deal and John stayed dead, therefore Dean could never be conceived. 

[Jeddah]

If Dean stopped existing the moment Azazel killed John, then Baby would have turned into the VW van John almost bought! How horrifying is that?!

[catrox14]

I'm going to head canon that in the period of time between John being killed and being brought back to life  Dean was non existent.  Then when John was resurrected, he was put back into the timeline and him arriving too late to stop Mary from making a deal. That's my head canon. All this wibbley wobbley timey wimey...stuff would piss the Doctor right off. LOL

If it's the infinite loop then Dean being sent back to the past is why Mary made the deal, because if Dean hadn't tried to kill Azazel and hadn't told Azazel he was going to kill him in the future then Azazel may not have bothered with killing John. Unless Azazel was going to always kill John and Grampy Campbell to force Mary's hand, so then Dean didn't really make it all happen, right? It just was going to happen in some other way, not because Dean put Azazel onto Mary.  So the question is did Dean make it happen the way it happened and if so, does it really matter? As of now, should Dean get the blame?

S5 spoilers

Spoiler

(leaving out anything known as of s5 that is)

 

5 hours ago, Jeddah said:

If Dean stopped existing the moment Azazel killed John, then Baby would have turned into the VW van John almost bought! How horrifying is that?!

Yeah but imagine the paint job and the giant bong in the back! LOL

Edited December 30, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

I rewatched Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox earlier this evening and my annoyance at what they did to the twins in Twigs, Twines and Tasha Banes has been renewed grrrr

[DeeDee79]

34 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I rewatched Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox earlier this evening and my annoyance at what they did to the twins in Twigs, Twines and Tasha Banes has been renewed grrrr

I agree. So much wasted potential for their characters.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I rewatched Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox earlier this evening and my annoyance at what they did to the twins in Twigs, Twines and Tasha Banes has been renewed grrrr

TERRIBLE. That said, both characters are technically still alive (well one of them is anyway the other is a literally copy. They could pop up later. Maybe Max will get a redemption arc for making a terrible decision. I wonder also if they could show up in Wayward Sisters.

[Wayward Son]

So I just rewatched L.O.T.U.S and had a misunderstanding cleared up! I was under the impression that the relationship between Kelly and Jeff was an affair due to Jeff getting married! I could have sworn I had read posts on here along the lines of "I wish the show would stop trying to saintify Kelly when she's the woman happy to sleep with a married man". But in fact Jeff wife had died and he was a widower meaning neither of them had actually done anything wrong. I actually now have no problem with Kelly being referred to as a good person. 

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

So I just rewatched L.O.T.U.S and had a misunderstanding cleared up! I was under the impression that the relationship between Kelly and Jeff was an affair due to Jeff getting married! I could have sworn I had read posts on here along the lines of "I wish the show would stop trying to saintify Kelly when she's the woman happy to sleep with a married man". But in fact Jeff wife had died and he was a widower meaning neither of them had actually done anything wrong. I actually now have no problem with Kelly being referred to as a good person. 

I'm not sure where you got the idea folks here thought it was an extramarital affair. I don't remember anyone here saying that.

I can say, that for me, my sideying them is because they were both supposedly pious, devout religious persons, who theoretically would not be having sex outside of marriage which makes them kind of hypocritical as humans can be. 

My issue with her being more or less sanctified after the fact, is that she was shown that the thing/creature inside her caused her to set a Bible on fire, and as a religious woman, you'd think she would have noped right out of there. LOL  Then, she herself saw Lucifer's eyes glow red, when he tried to kill her. But NOPE, she decided she was willing to risk the planet and humanity by running away from Castiel after seeing all that. Then later, once she realized she was going to die giving birth, that's when she decided to kill herself to kill the spawn, which failed of course.

Mostly, though, when she was offered the entirely reasonable compromise option to try removing Spawn's grace leaving the strong possibility that both she and the spawn would live as humans, she flat out refused, stole the Impala, and almost got Castiel killed because she refused to go along with the plan and her rationale was "He won't be him",  knowing that he was the spawn of Lucifer, the literal Devil.  IMO, that decision doesn't make her a "good person" anymore than it makes her a "bad person".

The other problem is that there was not enough shown about Kelly IMO to have any character decide she's a "good person".  IMO they started that narrative to try to erase the awful root of that awful storyline. YMMV

Edited January 1, 2018 by catrox14

[catrox14]

from the nephilim disc

Quote

 

Was the Nephilim in Lily Saunders... (where the retconning began) supposed to have been fathered by an archangel? I've blanked out so much of S12 I honestly don't recall.

 

I thought the discussion was about why Kelly's spawn was needing to be killed when other nephilims weren't necessarily being tapped for death in all cases like with the nephilim in s8. She was left alone until Metatron decided she had to die.  I also think in the case of Lily Sunder that Ishim knew already that she wasn't actually a nephelim but told Cas and the others that she was so he could punish Lily for not loving him.  He needed Cas to kill the angel she was living with so he could kill the child.

What I'm saying is that for the case of Jack, the angels could have said well he MUST die when we've let other nephelim alone is because Jack is the spawn of archangel who is also the devil. (which brings up questions about s13)

Spoiler

I don't think the angels want to kill Jack but they want him to make more angels which is creepy but maybe Jack would be better off with the angels if they don't torture him. It's all weird

But like I said before, maybe I've gotten confused.

Edited January 4, 2018 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

It was about that - I was just saying that any need for a Nephilim to be killed out of hand was retconned from the information given in S8. 

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It was about that - I was just saying that any need for a Nephilim to be killed out of hand was retconned from the information given in S8. 

Iwaa thinking that it might not be a retcon per se maybe the killing of nephilim was the order of the day until Lily's child was killed so they decided to not risk killing human children given ishims lie.i dunno I can see it both ways

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Iwaa thinking that it might not be a retcon per se maybe the killing of nephilim was the order of the day until Lily's child was killed so they decided to not risk killing human children given ishims lie.i dunno I can see it both ways

But as soon as Cas felt the nephilim come into being in S12, he was on a mission to kill it, even before he knew it was Lucifer's spawn.

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

But as soon as Cas felt the nephilim come into being in S12, he was on a mission to kill it, even before he knew it was Lucifer's spawn.

No, Cas knew right away that the power was greater than an ordinary nephilim.

Quote

CASTIEL Aah!

(Dean and Sam run over)

DEAN Cas? Cas? Hey.

CASTIEL Something's happened. Something...

Angel radio... There are so many voices.

SAM What are they saying?

CASTIEL There's been a massive surge in celestial energy.

A Nephilim is come into being.

It's the offspring of an angel and a human.

DEAN And that's big news?

CASTIEL Yes, but the power to produce this is immense.

It's much, much greater than a typical angel.

SAM Lucifer.

DEAN W— Lucifer?

I didn't know he was dating.

(Sam and Dean are in the Imapla. Castiel is in the back seat. They pass a sign that reads ‘Indianapolis 50’)

SAM (on his cell phone) Yeah, and hey, Crowley?

Uh, find out from your government mole if there's a girlfriend or a mistress or a favorite hooker.

[Wayward Son]

My understanding / fankwank of the nephilim situation is as follows. Since I can’t recall them being an issue prior to s8 so most of my thoughts are based on that season and season 12. 

 

Nephilims as a whole are despised by the angelic race. This was established by Castiel and Metatron in season 8. 

 

Quote

METATRON

No, she isn't. She's a Nephilim, an abomination.

CASTIEL

She's the offspring of an angel and a human? I thought that wasn't allowed.

METATRON

It's not. There's only one on Earth, and you are looking at it.

 

However, the angels aren’t able to sense the birth of an ordinary Nephilim. I am basing this on a) the nephilim from season 8 existed without anyone noticing b) the angels believed Ishim’s lie rather than holding the knowledge no nephilim existed on earth at that time. So heavens general policy is anti-nephilim and if they learn of one they’ll take them out, but if a nephilim is smart and keeps their head down they can get by undetected. 

 

The difference with Jack, as Catrox commented in the post above, is that his conception created a “massive surge of celestial energy” that instantly made heaven aware of his existence. I think it’s fair to believe this isnt the case with a normal nephilim as Castiel also states the power needed to create this surge was “much, much greater than a normal angel”. This meant unlike a normal nephilim heaven was instantly aware of his existence and due to his immense power hunting him became a priority. 

 

I am aware that this is head canon / filling in the gaps on my part so I’m not expecting everyone to agree. Just sharing my thoughts on the issue :)

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The difference with Jack, as Catrox commented in the post above, is that his conception created a “massive surge of celestial energy” that instantly made heaven aware of his existence. I think it’s fair to believe this isnt the case with a normal nephilim as Castiel also states the power needed to create this surge was “much, much greater than a normal angel”. This meant unlike a normal nephilim heaven was instantly aware of his existence and due to his immense power hunting him became a priority

That's more or less my head canon as well. I think it's not really a retcon but more that there was never an archangel nephilim before Jack that is known. If they come up with Michael, Gabriel, or Raphael having an unknown nephilim then it's all up for debate. Although even in that case, archangels apparently can hide like Gabriel did for years soooo they archangel nephil could probably hide if they wanted as well. Who knows LOL.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

That's more or less my head canon as well. I think it's not really a retcon but more that there was never an archangel nephilim before Jack that is known. If they come up with Michael, Gabriel, or Raphael having an unknown nephilim then it's all up for debate. Although even in that case, archangels apparently can hide like Gabriel did for years soooo they archangel nephil could probably hide if they wanted as well. Who knows LOL.

Going to reply in the all episodes thread :)

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's more or less my head canon as well. I think it's not really a retcon but more that there was never an archangel nephilim before Jack that is known. If they come up with Michael, Gabriel, or Raphael having an unknown nephilim then it's all up for debate. Although even in that case, archangels apparently can hide like Gabriel did for years soooo they archangel nephil could probably hide if they wanted as well. Who knows LOL.

I think that is what they have strongly implied in season 13 so far. There was an episode, I’m leaning towards War of the Worlds, where several characters commented on the fact no one could sense Jack and he must be protected by powerful magic. Personally, I took that to mean Jack was warding himself from protection.

 

However, I think it is fair to guess that even if Jack possessed unusual sentience in the womb even he may not have had enough awareness at the very moment of conception to ward himself so the angels didn’t notice the wave of celestial energy suddenly created. 

 

Sobasically what I’m saying is I can see Jack being able to ward himself now and possibly during the later stages of Kelly’s pregnancy, but I don’t think he was capable / aware enough to do so during his conception itself.

[catrox14]

I was thinking his half human side makes him harder to detect although you would think that would have made his conception less  detectable unless it was the power of Luci s juice that rocked the heavens..so to speak.

Edited January 4, 2018 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was thinking his half human side makes him harder to detect although you would think that would have made his conception less  detectable unless it was the power of Luci s juice that rocked the heavens..so to speak.

My head canon / understanding is as follows: 

 

A nephilim possess two things a) a grace level equivalent to the angel that created it and b) a human soul. 

 

So the reason Jack is so powerful is that he not only has the grace of an archangel inherited from his fathers heritage, but a human soul from his mothers heritage. 

 

We also know that an angel possesses the power to channel the human soul as a power  source e.g. Castiel tapped into Bobby’s soul to bring Sam and Dean back from the past during Frontier Land. So IMO this means not only does Jack have Lucifer leave grace, but he also can use his soul as a further energy source which boosts him up to god like powers such as opening up rifts, awakening Cas in the empty etc. 

 

The fact they inherit the same grace level as their angel parent and have access to a human soul would also explain why a nephilim is always more powerful than the angel who brought it into being i.e. they have a power source (the soul) their angelic parent lacked.

 

If I’m right then it makes sense the angels won’t notice the emergence of a new being with the same celestial ability as hundreds of angels, but they will instantly notice a new being possessing archangel power. A  Power level which exists in two other beings only one of whom is currently on earth. 

Edited January 4, 2018 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's more or less my head canon as well. I think it's not really a retcon but more that there was never an archangel nephilim before Jack that is known. If they come up with Michael, Gabriel, or Raphael having an unknown nephilim then it's all up for debate. Although even in that case, archangels apparently can hide like Gabriel did for years soooo they archangel nephil could probably hide if they wanted as well. Who knows LOL.

I'm not sure why I'm beating this poor horse, but I wasn't talking about Jack, I was talking about the Lily Sunder ep ret-conning what we learned of Nephilim in S8. I don't buy that no angels knew this one existed, I'm saying they didn't care, at least not enough to seek it out and kill it just because it existed. And I'm saying I think the Lily Sunder ep existed to set up the Jack story.  JMO and all that.

Edited January 4, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

16 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm not sure why I'm beating this poor horse, but I wasn't talking about Jack, I was talking about the Lily Sunder ep ret-conning what we learned of Nephilim in S8. I don't buy that no angels knew this one existed, I'm saying they didn't care, at least not enough to seek it out and kill it just because it existed. And I'm saying I think the Lily Sunder ep existed to set up the Jack story.  JMO and all that.

I understood you are talking about s8 being different. I'm saying that in Lily Sunder my headcanon is that because of what happened with Lily Sunderrs kid the angels decided to not kill anymore nephelim since it turned out they killed an innocent human child , and another angel for no reason. So the angels  or Heaven just opted for ignoring nephilims or they really couldn't find them. The only reason Metatron went after the nepbilim in s8 was for his spell. IMO Castiel just didn't know about her or maybe that was the only living nephilim on Earth at that time.

[gonzosgirrl]

Headcanon - sure. All I'm saying is this crew has little-to-no regard for canon - they change whatever they need to at whatever moment they need it to change. Billie says the Empty is it, nobody and nothing ever comes back. Then Cas does. Burned up wings meant angel = dead. No exceptions. Then Cas isn't. Don't get me wrong, I am glad they didn't kill him off. But each time they do this, they destroy a little more of my ability to invest in anything they offer up, because they are just going to change it down the road for a cheap 'gotcha'. Not good storytelling, at all.

[gonzosgirrl]

19 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Cute :)

So this got me to wondering...  Jack looks nothing like his human mother, and Lucifer doesn't really have a body, per se. There's no question he bears an uncanny resemblance to Castiel. He said he 'was' his mother, and he took on a grown form upon his birth, so did Jack choose what to look like? Does he look like Castiel because he imprinted on him as his father? And did he just stop 'aging' once he reached his current form? Could he change his appearance at will?

[Jeddah]

48 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So this got me to wondering...  Jack looks nothing like his human mother, and Lucifer doesn't really have a body, per se. There's no question he bears an uncanny resemblance to Castiel. He said he 'was' his mother, and he took on a grown form upon his birth, so did Jack choose what to look like? Does he look like Castiel because he imprinted on him as his father? And did he just stop 'aging' once he reached his current form? Could he change his appearance at will?

I don’t know if Jack did get to choose, but deciding to look like Misha Collins is a solid decision in my book!

[catrox14]

50 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So this got me to wondering...  Jack looks nothing like his human mother, and Lucifer doesn't really have a body, per se. There's no question he bears an uncanny resemblance to Castiel. He said he 'was' his mother, and he took on a grown form upon his birth, so did Jack choose what to look like? Does he look like Castiel because he imprinted on him as his father? And did he just stop 'aging' once he reached his current form? Could he change his appearance at will?

Ohhhh these are great questions.

I think it's that Jack imprinted on Cas when Cas touched Kelly's bell but he may not have known he did it. I do like the idea that he can change his appearance at will and just doesn't know it yet. That development would totally keep me interested.  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Ohhhh these are great questions.

I think it's that Jack imprinted on Cas when Cas touched Kelly's bell but he may not have known he did it. I do like the idea that he can change his appearance at will and just doesn't know it yet. That development would totally keep me interested.  

It's not a vessel he's in - so I don't see why he couldn't change it if he wanted/needed to. If Asmodeus can do it, why not Jack?

ETA: I think the fact that he stopped changing lends itself to the idea that Jack influenced/could influence how he appears. Why else would he stop 'growing' at a late teenage look?

Edited January 9, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

It's not a vessel he's in - so I don't see why he couldn't change it if he wanted/needed to. If Asmodeus can do it, why not Jack?

Exactly. Andrew Dabb is gonna get his autoshifting in one way or the other! LOL

[MysteryGuest]

I just finished watching Bugs and Route 666, back to back, and I have to say that I really enjoyed both of them.  The only issue I had were the spiders in Bugs...they were so obviously fake, and the fact that it went from midnight to dawn in about 5 minutes.  But I actually thought both stories were interesting.  I'm not sure what I disliked about Route 666 so much before.  The story seemed plausible to me, at least as plausible as a story about a ghost truck can be.  

I guess sometimes you just have to be in the right mood to watch certain episodes.  

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I just finished watching Bugs and Route 666, back to back, and I have to say that I really enjoyed both of them.  The only issue I had were the spiders in Bugs...they were so obviously fake, and the fact that it went from midnight to dawn in about 5 minutes.  But I actually thought both stories were interesting.  I'm not sure what I disliked about Route 666 so much before.  The story seemed plausible to me, at least as plausible as a story about a ghost truck can be.  

I guess sometimes you just have to be in the right mood to watch certain episodes.  

I actually kind of like both those episodes, except in both cases, I hate the climaxes.  Bugs had a lot of good scenes about their back story and the curse back story, but just waiting it out was kind of lame.  A race to the edge of the property somehow, probably would have worked better.  And in Route 666, I have two issues with it. One, hallowed ground has not been good for anything else on this show. Previous to this issue, they were attacked by a ghost in a church.  So, lame.  Also, Sam admitted that he was unsure that this would work.  So, why have Dean stop and wait for the ghost?  If he kept driving, the ghost truck would still have to drive over hallowed ground to chase him, right?  So, if he disappears, great.  If not, Dean's not a sitting duck.

[MysteryGuest]

7 hours ago, Katy M said:

I actually kind of like both those episodes, except in both cases, I hate the climaxes.  Bugs had a lot of good scenes about their back story and the curse back story, but just waiting it out was kind of lame.  A race to the edge of the property somehow, probably would have worked better.  And in Route 666, I have two issues with it. One, hallowed ground has not been good for anything else on this show. Previous to this issue, they were attacked by a ghost in a church.  So, lame.  Also, Sam admitted that he was unsure that this would work.  So, why have Dean stop and wait for the ghost?  If he kept driving, the ghost truck would still have to drive over hallowed ground to chase him, right?  So, if he disappears, great.  If not, Dean's not a sitting duck.

You make good points.  Sadly, most episodes don't hold up to too much scrutiny.  There's just something about those early episodes.  They were genuinely creepy and we don't get too much of that anymore.  It's all angels and demons, and they're not creepy, just annoying.  

I suppose they couldn't have continued to do the same type of stories for 13 years.  And much of the angel/demon storyline was interesting, but it just isn't anymore, IMO.  And I personally don't find the concept of different universes all that compelling.  I wish they had actually done what they've said they were going to do for a few seasons now and gone back to some of the simpler stories.  I know those early seasons were all Jensen/Jared, all the time, and that got to be too much for them, but I do miss those days.

Edited January 15, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[ahrtee]

Moved from SPN Smackdown thread:

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sure, but not everyone dies on their first hunt. John Winchester was out there alone, so was Gordon until he got into the community more. Some die, some don't; even the most seasoned hunters on the planet have died many times over while spindly Garth managed to survive on his own.

Crap.  I had a whole long answer which disappeared between the other thread and this one, so I'll have to try to remember my points :(  

First--I thought we were talking about going on a first hunt alone and without much training.  For all we know, *everyone* who tries to hunt alone at first dies.  It's just that we (and other hunters) never hear about them.  :)

Second--John wasn't alone till *after* he was trained.  He didn't just find out about the demon from Missouri and go, "cool, let me get my guns and go after it."  IIRC, according to the printed version of his journal, Missouri sent him to Pastor Jim who hooked him up with other hunters to train with.  The show mentions he hunted with (and learned from) Bobby, Daniel Elkins, Bill Harvelle, and most likely Pastor Jim and Caleb.  If he was familiar with the Roadhouse he also knew other hunters, and probably learned from all of them.  He had the weapons and tactical experience but still needed to learn about the different monsters, how to find them *and* how to kill them.

We don't know about Gordon, but, since it's not widely known that you have to decapitate vampires, chances are very good that someone had to tell him.  And if he specialized in vamps, he mostly needed training in tracking and killing them, not a wide knowledge of other monsters.  

Pretty much everyone whose backstory we know had a mentor.  Hell, even Bobby had Rufus to keep him from getting killed (or arrested) at first.  Eileen had a mentor.  Krissy and her teen group had a mentor (such as he was) who set them up with easy kills to train them.  The Campbells home schooled all their people in monster hunting.  OTOH, Cole, with all his weapons training and military experience, knew *nothing* about demons.  Dean could have killed him in two seconds flat.  Charlie researched obsessively and so had theory down pat, but no practical fighting experience.  Jody and Donna, conversely, had practical *human* fighting experience, but had to be taught how to deal with vampires.  And that's only one kind of monster.  (It was implied that Jody learned more about hunting from Asa Fox, but we don't know how much.)

And of course even seasoned hunters can make rookie mistakes, have a bad day, or be outnumbered.  Luck plays a part, but it's not something hunters should count on.  

 

Quote

So, yeah, I don't have a problem with these women becoming hunters. I personally haven't gotten the vibe they're going to be experts off the bat, but will probably make mistakes and learn from them like Sam and Dean did in the early seasons. In a way, it's kinda like when Jo started hunting. She had enough knowledge to be dangerous, but really had no clue what it was all about until she started doing it. That's what I expect to see from the younger girls.

I don't mind them becoming hunters.  I DO have a problem with inexperienced girls suddenly knowing all (or thinking they do) about hunting.  Even Jody has, at best, a few hunts under her belt, since she does still have her day job.  Not enough IMO to qualify as an expert, much less a teacher to girls who know *nothing* about fighting.  

Having knowledge of monsters doesn't mean you can handle them *without extensive training.*  Sure, anyone who's not experienced will make mistakes; but in most new jobs your mistakes won't kill you (even police and military aren't sent out on the front lines without training *and*  someone with experience in charge to give orders in case things go south.)  Sam and Dean had *years* of training before they hunted on their own.  Jo had Sam and Dean to bail her out when her first hunt went south.  In fact that was Dean's point: 

DEAN: Sweetheart, this ain't gender studies. Women can do the job fine. Amateurs can't. You have no experience. What you do have is a bunch of half-baked romantic notions that some barflies put in your head.  

In order to gain experience, you have to survive your mistakes first.  And luck will only get you so far.

Edited January 18, 2018 by ahrtee

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Second--John wasn't alone till *after* he was trained. He didn't just find out about the demon from Missouri and go, "cool, let me get my guns and go after it."  IIRC, according to the printed version of his journal, Missouri sent him to Pastor Jim who hooked him up with other hunters to train with.  The show mentions he hunted with (and learned from) Bobby, Daniel Elkins, Bill Harvelle, and most likely Pastor Jim and Caleb.  If he was familiar with the Roadhouse he also knew other hunters, and probably learned from all of them.  He had the weapons and tactical experience but still needed to learn about the different monsters, how to find them *and* how to kill them.

Are you sure about that? Doesn't seem like it to me. I think he did go out and try to hunt on his own and that's how he met up with some of his contacts over the years. But, even then, he pissed off most the people he worked with. He was totally paranoid and didn't want Sam and Dean around the hunter community, so I suspect John most certainly tried to do it alone at first and found out he needed more information. But I suspect he decided he was ready to hunt on his own long before he was actually ready. 

I think I just have a different view of the hunting world than you. It's not an organized community. You don't get a certificate to say you're licensed to hunt, you just hunt. Some people get ushered in by family or with partners and some people learn on the job, alone--like Gordon. Many die, many survive, but there is no real formal training involved. Sam and Dean were trained as kids, but I think we've seen evidence of plenty who just jump in and figure it out...or don't.

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Even Jody has, at best, a few hunts under her belt, since she does still have her day job.  Not enough IMO to qualify as an expert, much less a teacher to girls who know *nothing* about fighting. 

It seems to me she has a lot more than a few hunts under her belt, but I don't think she's going to be presented as an expert, myself. We may have only seen a few hunts she's done, but Sam and Dean only see her once a year so I suspect she does things when they're not around too. I believe she's mentioned a couple solo hunts; her and Claire did some hunts together before Claire decided it wasn't working and took off on her own; and it surely sounded like her and Asa were hunting very regularly before he died. IMO, she is as much of an expert as Sam and Dean were back in S1, which is to say they weren't experts either back then.  Sam not only was rusty from being away from the life for four years, but it always seemed to me he hadn't actively hunted all that much like Dean did as a teenager. He seemed to be relegated to research more than anything, which is where I think he preferred to be. Dean was the more experienced, but many times in S1 they both expressed feeling like they were in over their heads. But, they figured it out and I think that's a reasonable assumption for these women to be able to do as well. They're not incompetent and there are six of them instead of only two.

BTW, I'm not suggesting Jodi is going to be their teacher though. I think she's going to be a sort of mentor in life to these girls, but I also think they're all going to learn how to do the job together. Much like Sam and Dean did in the early seasons of the show. They often got the wrong end of the stick on a hunt--and still do, quite frankly--and I expect that to be the case with Jodi and Co. too. I don't expect to see them being hunter extraordinaire out of the gate, but will learn and grow into the job like the parent show.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

DEAN: Sweetheart, this ain't gender studies. Women can do the job fine. Amateurs can't. You have no experience. What you do have is a bunch of half-baked romantic notions that some barflies put in your head.  

I swear Berens or someone took this line out of context and decided HEY let's do exactly that! Let's show Dean that amateurs can do it!!

[ahrtee]

29 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Are you sure about that? Doesn't seem like it to me. I think he did go out and try to hunt on his own and that's how he met up with some of his contacts over the years. But, even then, he pissed off most the people he worked with. He was totally paranoid and didn't want Sam and Dean around the hunter community, so I suspect John most certainly tried to do it alone at first and found out he needed more information. But I suspect he decided he was ready to hunt on his own long before he was actually ready. 

I think I just have a different view of the hunting world than you. It's not an organized community. You don't get a certificate to say you're licensed to hunt, you just hunt. Some people get ushered in by family or with partners and some people learn on the job, alone--like Gordon. Many die, many survive, but there is no real formal training involved. Sam and Dean were trained as kids, but I think we've seen evidence of plenty who just jump in and figure it out...or don't.

*shrugs* I'd say we've seen more direct evidence of people who were trained (the ones I mentioned above) than ones who just jumped in on their own.  Not to say there weren't those who went out on their own, just that we haven't heard about them (but we *have* heard about those who were trained.)  In line with previous discussions about "if it's not shown/discussed on the show, it didn't happen," I'd say it's much more likely that *most* hunters were trained to some extent.  A quote from John Winchester's Journal seems to back that up (I know it's not canon-accurate, but it's the only "canon-adjacent" info we have about John's early years):

May 2:  Sammy is a year old. We spent his birthday in the mountains, because I had to meet a guy named Daniel Elkins. The hunter culture is weird about how it breaks in new blood. Everyone you meet says you should go meet someone else, and learn something else, and every time you meet someone else they take you out to hunt their favorite kind of monster. This guy Elkins lives I a cabin out in the middle of nowhere in Colorado, and according to him, he’s the greatest vampire hunter alive.

            Vampires.

            They’re real. I’ve never seen one, but Daniel says they’re real, and I believe him. He also says that the hunter’s journal is for research as much as for recording day-to-day whatever.

(BTW, the first entry in the journal says: 

I went to Missouri, and learned the truth.  And from her, I met Fletcher Gable, who gave me this book and said: “Write everything down.”  That’s what Fletcher told me, like this new life is a school and I’ll flunk out if I don’t have good notes. Only if I flunk out of this school, I’ll be dead. And the boys will be orphans.

The journal mentions him hunting with Gable several times, and taking the boys to the roadhouse so he could "learn what hunters do."

IA there's no official school and no certificates.  Staying alive is your diploma.  But no one wants to see newby hunters killed just because they didn't know which monsters need a headshot, which need consecrated iron, which need silver.  And that's something you can't learn by trial and error.  

29 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

IMO, she is as much of an expert as Sam and Dean were back in S1, which is to say they weren't experts either back then.  Sam not only was rusty from being away from the life for four years, but it always seemed to me he hadn't actively hunted all that much like Dean did as a teenager. He seemed to be relegated to research more than anything, which is where I think he preferred to be. Dean was the more experienced, but many times in S1 they both expressed feeling like they were in over their heads.

Here's where I disagree completely.  There's a big difference IMO between first learning about monsters as an adult and having to play catch up to figure out what to do about it, and being raised from age 5 knowing that your life (and your brother's) will depend on knowing everything you can about monsters.  That doesn't mean they'll know *everything* about all monsters--that would be a major computer program (or the MoL files) but they certainly were trained first with the general knowledge (again, which ones need silver, which iron, which head shots...)** and *where to look to find the details they're missing.*  I was a librarian for over 20 years.  It doesn't mean I know everything or can answer all questions off the top of my head; what it does mean is that *I learned where to look to *find* the answers.*  Jody/inexperienced hunters don't even know what question to ask, much less where to look.  

 

**ETA: And the physical training so they could fight well.  Sam may have been out of practice hunting in season 1, but he was still physically active; and Dean at least was hunting pretty much nonstop from his teen years on, including solo hunting for the last few years.  That's canon.

Edited January 18, 2018 by ahrtee

[companionenvy]

Eh. I think it is part of the genre that in shows like this, characters who should by rights be dead ten times over manage to survive.  I start to have a problem when it gets really egregious -i.e, when the show acts like Mary might credibly be considered a better hunter or even comparable to Sam and Dean -- but the idea that people with limited training can survive a standard hunt doesn't bother me.  It is a lot less to swallow than the fact that Sam and Dean are still free to go along their merry way -- riding a vintage Chevy Impala, no less -- after being on the FBI's most wanted list multiple times. Or the fact that no members of the in-universe SPN fandom, as far as we know, ever put the pieces together when two attractive brothers named Sam and Dean were in the news with a criminal history that would have included versions of events that had come up in previous books. Or that there were no apparent ramifications (aside from the initial carnage) from Castiel's stint as God, and that no one recognizes him. 

[gonzosgirrl]

I can't really decide where this goes, so since it refers to all episodes, past and future, maybe here?

Kripke's tweet to the Wayward Sisters

ETA the list for those who can't see the tweet.

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

OK, now I have to seen an episode of ghosts of wild animals possessing domestic ones.