All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[Bessie]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

But why was Cas actually successful?  Cas never mentioned fighting Lilith OR Alastair when getting Dean out? 

But he did say the garrison had to "lay siege" to hell and fight to get to Dean. I don't think we were ever told how many angels were in the garrison. It could've been one hell of a fight to rescue Dean, but it was sort of glossed over. 

Overtime, I think we tend to conflate Cas with the garrison when it comes to Dean's rescue. Cas was just one member of the rescue team and who knows how large it was. 

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, Bessie said:

But he did say the garrison had to "lay siege" to hell and fight to get to Dean. I don't think we were ever told how many angels were in the garrison. It could've been one hell of a fight to rescue Dean, but it was sort of glossed over. 

Overtime, I think we tend to conflate Cas with the garrison when it comes to Dean's rescue. Cas was just one member of the rescue team and who knows how large it was. 

I've always thought Cas was the angel leading the garrison and the rest were there to make sure Cas got through. But it could have been happenstance that Cas got through first, or maybe Cas was the only angel that survived the battle to get to Dean.

Dean didn't have any other hand prints on him which implies to me that Cas was still the only angel that physically got his hands on Dean and pulled him out of Hell...in whatever way that meant. 

I didn't think it was glossed over myself. When Dean's eyes were shown looking around, the screams and cries and shrieking noises could be heard which sounded like quite a battle to me.

Edited June 28, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Personally, I think the angels purposely waited until after Dean broke the first seal to send anyone to save him. They may have told Cass and the other lower angels they needed to get to him before he broke, but they needed him to break that seal just as much as the demons did. I'd say they left him there longer than necessary to make sure the first seal was truly broken before they sent anyone in to save Dean. Plus, they didn't really care if Dean was broken when they got him out of Hell. Probably thought it would be easier to manipulate him if he was.

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I think the angels purposely waited until after Dean broke the first seal to send anyone to save him. They may have told Cass and the other lower angels they needed to get to him before he broke, but they needed him to break that seal just as much as the demons did. I'd say they left him there longer than necessary to make sure the first seal was truly broken before they sent anyone in to save Dean. Plus, they didn't really care if Dean was broken when they got him out of Hell. Probably thought it would be easier to manipulate him if he was.

I don't quite follow what you mean here.  The seal was broken the moment Dean harmed a soul in Hell. I guess I don't know what you mean by truly broken.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't quite follow what you mean here.  The seal was broken the moment Dean harmed a soul in Hell. I guess I don't know what you mean by truly broken.

Right, but the angels may not have had the best intel on it all and just waited a bit to send anyone in to get him to make sure their intel was good before sending in a rescue party.

[DittyDotDot]

Another reason they may have waited so long to rescue Dean is maybe they were waiting for Ruby to get Sam fully on her side? The angels knew all along what Lilith's plan for Dean was and also knew all along what Sam's role in it all would be. It could be they just didn't want Dean interfering with what Ruby was doing with Sam before it was too late.

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Right, but the angels may not have had the best intel on it all and just waited a bit to send anyone in to get him to make sure their intel was good before sending in a rescue party.

I gotcha. I guess I figured once Dean did it, like some kind of ripple went through Heaven and Hell, like alarms going off akin to when a nephilim was conceived. I don't know why I thought that but I just did. LOL

[Katy M]

@AwesomO4000 said this in the Sin City thread:

 

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I liked Ritchie, too, that's why I was a bit annoyed at Dean seemingly flirting with Casey. Reiterating and expanding a bit on my post above, I was thinking, "Dude, she just killed your friend - who you said you buried - do not be distracted by the pretty package." Sure, Casey gave the whole "we have our beliefs, just like you do" sympathy ploy thing, but when your "beliefs" include worshiping Lucifer, and killing people - like I'm going to believe that Richie was seriously a threat to super strong Casey - then no, "live and let live" doesn't apply. Even her "I wouldn't want to hurt this body" thing was questionable... so you don't want to hurt the girl's body, but it's okay to force her to be a prisoner in that body while you kill people with it... oookay: priorities really messed up alert. So no, Show, just because Dean "bonds" with the demon instead of Sam does not make her "cuddly," so stop trying to make me sympathize with her. It ain't working, and it makes Dean look like a hypocrite later on when he talks about Ruby.

 

I had never really given that much thought before, but now that I think of it, they do seem to buddy buddy up with killers quite a bit.  There's the obvious of Crowley.  Gabriel never killed anyone they personally cared about, but he did kill a cheater in Tall Tales, and we know that Dean doesn't think that's a sin worth killing over.  He also killed someone just for debunking Mystery Spots.  She didn't kill anyone directly, but they did work with and save Bela after she was responsible for that Wayne guy's death in Bad Day at Black Rock.  And that's just what they know about. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Brought over from Free To Be You and Me thread:

17 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

37 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, I think Sam only wanted Lucifer twice.  Once, in Hammer of the Gods. Cas wasn't there, and I think you needed exact words.  So, I guess the only time it didn't make sense was in Swan Song.  Cas could have whispered the words in Sam's ears like he did Raphael's vessel.  Or, he could have gotten rid of the angel hiding marking.

Now that I think about it, maybe the ritual only works for a vessel who has already given consent and been possessed? Maybe the link is due to the possession not the vessel itself?

  Reveal hidden contents

Maybe it's the residual grace?

So, it wouldn't have worked for Sam or Dean because they were firmly in the no-possession camp.

I was mainly thinking of in S12 when they were looking for Lucifer for most of the first half of the season (especially Cas - though then I guess we wouldn't have gotten the Agent Beyonce/Agent Zee team up. :) )  Cas could have whispered the words in Sam's ear then.  Or, you know, taught him the words - then Sam could have said the 'come and get me you little bastard' line and it would have made sense.  Which, if Triple D is correct, and it has something to do with residual grace, then it still should have worked, since Sam had already been possessed at that point.

Ditto for the Gadreel thing - weren't they looking for him at some point?  I remember them trapping him as he conveniently stood in the middle of the ring of Endless Holy Oil and waited patiently for them to light it.  :)  Why did they bother looking when they could have just summoned him?  

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

. I actually thought it would've been more interesting if they'd done a swerve in S5 and Sam was no longer considered necessary to the demons or angels and they all started ignoring him like he wasn't important anymore. 

That might have been kind of funny - in a frustrating way - for Sam.  And I'm sure there are some viewers who would have preferred it.  But I'm not sure how it would have worked with Sam's redemption arc.  

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I was mainly thinking of in S12 when they were looking for Lucifer for most of the first half of the season (especially Cas - though then I guess we wouldn't have gotten the Agent Beyonce/Agent Zee team up. :) )  Cas could have whispered the words in Sam's ear then.  Or, you know, taught him the words - then Sam could have said the 'come and get me you little bastard' line and it would have made sense.  Which, if Triple D is correct, and it has something to do with residual grace, then it still should have worked, since Sam had already been possessed at that point.

Ditto for the Gadreel thing - weren't they looking for him at some point?  I remember them trapping him as he conveniently stood in the middle of the ring of Endless Holy Oil and waited patiently for them to light it.  :)  Why did they bother looking when they could have just summoned him?  

As far as I know, the ritual is just a phone call, not a true summoning, I don't think the angel being called has to answer or come when called. Raphael did because Cass was using Dean--and himself--as bait. And, of course, typical villainous hubris; can't pass up an opportunity to snark at Winchester and his boyfriend, now can he?

13 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That might have been kind of funny - in a frustrating way - for Sam.  And I'm sure there are some viewers who would have preferred it.  But I'm not sure how it would have worked with Sam's redemption arc.  

Well, just because angels and demons may have thought Sam was unnecessary, doesn't mean that he was. I think it could've been interesting because, it seems to me, the angels and demons alike didn't know as much as they thought they knew. Could've been a nice flip of the script of how Dean is usually the one to fly under the radar and uses it to his advantage.

Edited July 6, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

33 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I was mainly thinking of in S12 when they were looking for Lucifer for most of the first half of the season (especially Cas - though then I guess we wouldn't have gotten the Agent Beyonce/Agent Zee team up. :) )  Cas could have whispered the words in Sam's ear then.  Or, you know, taught him the words - then Sam could have said the 'come and get me you little bastard' line and it would have made sense.  Which, if Triple D is correct, and it has something to do with residual grace, then it still should have worked, since Sam had already been possessed at that point.

Ditto for the Gadreel thing - weren't they looking for him at some point?  I remember them trapping him as he conveniently stood in the middle of the ring of Endless Holy Oil and waited patiently for them to light it.  :)  Why did they bother looking when they could have just summoned him?  

Maybe the summoning/phone call brings the angel directly into the vessel.  I think we can all agree that though they were looking for Lucifer and Gadreel, Sam did NOT want them inside of him. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Maybe the summoning/phone call brings the angel directly into the vessel.  I think we can all agree that though they were looking for Lucifer and Gadreel, Sam did NOT want them inside of him. 

Good point!  Lol!

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Jump the Shark" episode thread:

4 hours ago, JanetWaldo said:

I don't need to imagine.  Been there.  Done that.  Paid for the t-shirt factory in blood,  sweat, and tears.  You should understand that for a meth addict, it's not about rationalizing.  Not at all.  They aren't taking the drugs for some 'greater good' like Sam alleged, or even to 'help them get through the day' like most alcoholics will say, or to work a double shift like some amphetamine addicts.  Real meth addicts don't care at all about anything other than getting their next high and they don't even bother with any rationalization.   So imo,, even at the height of his addiction, Sam was not quite that far gone (since he was able to rationalize drinking the demon blood to use his powers to kill Lilith - which means that he was at least capable of some rational thought) that he shouldn't have been able to piece together a clue. 

I brought over the entire quote for context, but in doing so, I must  first commend your ability to get through the situation you describe. I couldn't even imagine...

As for Sam, I tend to give him a small bit of a break, because the blood was messing with his head a bit (as evidenced by his withdrawal hallucinations in "As the Levee Breaks") and because pretty much no one really got a clue here, except maybe Anna (until she believed Castiel anyway), Zachariah, Michael, and Lucifer. And Bobby - for about 2 seconds before he lost it, too. Heck even Ruby and Lilith somewhat got played. Lilith got dead and there was no way that even if Sam and Dean hadn't killed her, that Ruby was going to be "rewarded" by Lucifer any other way than either having her neck snapped or being enslaved somehow, most likely the former - illustrative example: Rowena.

But despite the narrative's later somewhat revisionist history, Sam wasn't the only one who got duped here. Despite thinking they were dicks, Dean bought that the angels were trying to stop the apocalypse and got on board with their program ("When the Levee Breaks"). Bobby called Dean out for being a dumbass on that one, but even he soon agreed with Dean that even if they didn't "trust" the angels,  that "trusting" them was better than Sam trusting a demon... which as it turns out no, it wasn't any better. It was exactly the same. The angels were just as underhanded and dangerous as Ruby and the demons were... and maybe even worse, because they were much more powerful. Which Dean never figured out somehow that if demons weren't killing the angels, and couldn't, who was and why? And why weren't demons being smited left and right so the seals wouldn't be being broken. Answers: other angels, because they were in their own power struggle, and because the head angels wanted the seals broken. If Dean had been more with it, he should have figured it out that the demons should've been overpowered by the angels. It may not have looked like it in "Heaven and Hell," but after "On the Head of a Pin" where they found out that demons weren't (supposedly) able to kill angels and the "It's a Terrible Life" follow up to "The End," the angels being way more powerful should have been more evident, so why were the seals still breaking? I think Dean's biggest mistake was that he looked at it as an either/or thing. "What other choice do I have?" - not throw in with either of them would've been a good one. Take a tazer to the hotel room, taze Sam's ass and throw him back in detox, and gank Ruby would've been another. Or calling the only angel you could trust - Anna - (before Cas narked on her) would've been even better still. How exactly did the angels "help" Dean once he pledged himself? Unless letting Sam out, getting Anna arrested, and locking Dean in the green room so he couldn't stop Sam is considered help, the answer was none at all.

And even though Castiel was reprogrammed, he still seemed to be talking rationally about the situation with Dean. He knew that if Sam was going to beat Lilith, he'd have to consume enough demon blood that it would turn hm into a monster of some kind. Yet Castiel somehow couldn't figure out that letting Sam out of the panic room to go drink more demon blood was a very bad idea or later, after Sam did get out, that keeping Dean from stopping whatever Sam was going to do after drinking that demon blood was a very bad idea. Castiel actually could've gotten get a clue, as evidenced by the fact the he did eventually get one. He just got it way too late.

And despite Bobby's moment of rational thinking that Dean was a dumbass for throwing in with the angels, he changed his mind. And he also considered that maybe using Sam as a "nuclear bomb" to kill Lilith was a good idea, so also not really getting a clue either, in my opinion.

So despite Sam not having a clue here and messing up, in my opinion, he was by far not the only one. I'd actually argue that the only rational and semi-clued in person in the entire scenario was Anna... and Castiel made sure that she got taken out of the picture.

[JanetWaldo]

16 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

The angels were just as underhanded and dangerous as Ruby and the demons were... and maybe even worse, because they were much more powerful. Which Dean never figured out somehow that if demons weren't killing the angels, and couldn't, who was and why? And why weren't demons being smited left and right so the seals wouldn't be being broken. Answers: other angels, because they were in their own power struggle, and because the head angels wanted the seals broken. If Dean had been more with it, he should have figured it out that the demons should've been overpowered by the angels. It may not have looked like it in "Heaven and Hell," but after "On the Head of a Pin" where they found out that demons weren't (supposedly) able to kill angels and the "It's a Terrible Life" follow up to "The End," the angels being way more powerful should have been more evident, so why were the seals still breaking?

This is a very good point, and one that I don't think I picked up on before.

All that being said, in my original comment about Sam getting a clue, I was only addressing Sam getting a clue that drinking blood itself was bad - not about the whole killing Lilith/seals breaking thing!  :) 

I understand why Sam didn't pick up on all the machinations of the demons and angels; partly because of his blood addiction and because what led to his addiction was his desire for revenge on Lilith.  Dean just got out of hell, so I can understand him getting fooled, because he was busy trying to play catch up at first - and then the hell PTSD on top of that.  Bobby, I agree, should have had a clearer head.  Cas was not thinking straight after his reprogramming.  So I agree that Anna was really the only one thinking straight at the beginning, although she also got fooled by Ruby, if I recall. 

[Aeryn13]

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As for Sam, I tend to give him a small bit of a break, because the blood was messing with his head a bit

And Dean had just returned from hell and despite the show minimizing and belittling it in upcoming years, he suffered enough trauma that I can give him a break on not figuring everything out. At the very least he didn`t hold up the angels as a positive example in his corner even after they had screwed him over. He only kept a positive relationship with Cas who did genuinely try to help him out in the Season 4 Finale. It might have been too late but IMO it warranted the exemption from the "angels are dicks" rule.   

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Heck even Ruby and Lilith somewhat got played. Lilith got dead and there was no way that even if Sam and Dean hadn't killed her, that Ruby was going to be "rewarded" by Lucifer any other way than either having her neck snapped or being enslaved somehow, most likely the former - illustrative example: Rowena.

They foreshadowed Ruby`s fate in one instance and retroactively lampshaded it in another. The foreshadowing was in the Pumpkin episode in Season 4 with the witch who had faithfully served that one demon and expected much rewards after raising him. And he just snapped her neck all matter of fact.

The lampshading was in Season 5 with Lucifer killing all the demons after performing some ritual and going "what? they`re just demons". It juxtaposed with when Ruby waxed poetic about being the most loyal Lucifer worshipper in all the lands in the Season 4 Finale. He may have created demons but even he never really wanted their worship and loyalty. He was angel through and through like that. Ruling in Heaven or ruling over his Daddy`s beloved humans and having them worship him? Sure. But demons? Ew. Ruby would have gotten a swift kick in the ass and not be queen consort like she obviously imagined, fucking the vessel she liked and her beloved overlord all at once. And we`d still have had the gaping "OMG, this turn of events is shocking" face with it that marked her as seriously dumb where it counted.  

[ahrtee]

18 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As for Sam, I tend to give him a small bit of a break, because the blood was messing with his head a bit (as evidenced by his withdrawal hallucinations in "As the Levee Breaks") and because pretty much no one really got a clue here, except maybe Anna (until she believed Castiel anyway), Zachariah, Michael, and Lucifer. And Bobby - for about 2 seconds before he lost it, too. Heck even Ruby and Lilith somewhat got played. Lilith got dead and there was no way that even if Sam and Dean hadn't killed her, that Ruby was going to be "rewarded" by Lucifer any other way than either having her neck snapped or being enslaved somehow, most likely the former - illustrative example: Rowena.

But despite the narrative's later somewhat revisionist history, Sam wasn't the only one who got duped here. Despite thinking they were dicks, Dean bought that the angels were trying to stop the apocalypse and got on board with their program ("When the Levee Breaks"). Bobby called Dean out for being a dumbass on that one, but even he soon agreed with Dean that even if they didn't "trust" the angels,  that "trusting" them was better than Sam trusting a demon... which as it turns out no, it wasn't any better. It was exactly the same.

I don't think anyone said Sam was the only one being duped.  Both sides were playing a chess game, and Sam and Dean were the game pieces.  Both Sam and Dean believed their respective sides held the only way to win (and TBH, I think most people who were out to save the world would think that working with angels was better than working with demons in the absence of any proof to the contrary.)  AFAIK, the only angel Dean trusted was Cas, who honestly (aside from the blip when he was reprogrammed) was obeying what he thought were "righteous" orders direct from God, just like the only demon Sam trusted was Ruby, and he honestly thought she was trying to help.  Neither one knew what was going on behind the scenes.  It was just who they chose to trust.  Both were being played by those very beings (I started to say "people," but, well...) they trusted, so both had their trust betrayed.  Neither one trusted the other angels or demons.

I'm not sure what you mean by "revisionist" history except maybe the eps years later where Sam was mentioned as the one who brought on the Apocalypse, but I think most fans know about Dean's role (and have brought it up time and again, on both sides) so it hasn't been forgotten or whitewashed by viewers, even if TPTB don't choose to mention it (just like they never mention Dean's time in hell any more).   I think "revisionist history" is on all sides, so there's no point to getting upset about one more than the other.  

 

18 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And why weren't demons being smited left and right so the seals wouldn't be being broken. Answers: other angels, because they were in their own power struggle, and because the head angels wanted the seals broken. If Dean had been more with it, he should have figured it out that the demons should've been overpowered by the angels. It may not have looked like it in "Heaven and Hell," but after "On the Head of a Pin" where they found out that demons weren't (supposedly) able to kill angels and the "It's a Terrible Life" follow up to "The End," the angels being way more powerful should have been more evident, so why were the seals still breaking? 

Well, no one (except Uriel, Zach and whoever was giving the orders) knew what was going on except what they were told, so it was a question of belief.  (Remember, Dean wasn't conscious when Alistair told Sam that demons weren't killing the angels.)  Sam should have told him afterwards, but they were both in such bad shape (and at such odds) that we don't know what information was shared.  Not that I'm saying Sam withheld anything on purpose, but, in between the rush of power, the high of killing Alistair,  and his fear for Dean's life afterwards, he might not have remembered it or realized its implications.  Even so, it's a long jump from "demons aren't killing the angels" to "angels are in the middle of a major civil war," at least at that point in the story.  Uriel was considered part of a rogue group who wanted Lucifer out because they chose to follow him, not part of a conspiracy throughout the upper echelons of heaven to start the apocalypse.  Uriel and Zachariah were actually on opposite sides, even if they both wanted the same result--that is, the Apocalypse.  But there was no reason (at that time) for anyone to think that they were both working against humans.  

About the bolded part:  angels may be stronger, but there are more demons and they could pick and choose among the 600+ seals to break.  Think about a small police force (even with vast powers) trying to stop all crime everywhere on earth at the same time.  

Cas mentioned that they were losing too many angels (and their numbers "weren't legion").  I got the impression that only God could create angels (remember the priest saying "no human can become an angel") but demons are just twisted human souls, so there's a never-ending supply.  Smite a whole boatload, and they can just ship more in from Hell, and create more.   There were simply too many demons and too many possibilities for the angels to watch everything.  

Now, *we* know that the angels in charge really did want the Apocalypse, and so probably were aiding and abetting (or at least, not stopping) the breaking of the seals.  But the boys (and Bobby) would have no reason *not* to believe Cas.  Not until Zach showed his hand in Lucifer Rising.

19 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think Dean's biggest mistake was that he looked at it as an either/or thing. "What other choice do I have?" - not throw in with either of them would've been a good one. Take a tazer to the hotel room, taze Sam's ass and throw him back in detox, and gank Ruby would've been another. Or calling the only angel you could trust - Anna - (before Cas narked on her) would've been even better still. How exactly did the angels "help" Dean once he pledged himself? Unless letting Sam out, getting Anna arrested, and locking Dean in the green room so he couldn't stop Sam is considered help, the answer was none at all.

At that point, IMO there was no other option other than to chose sides.  Sticking Sam in detox and killing Ruby wouldn't have stopped the angels from breaking him out, and Sam would never have forgiven Dean (because, well, not believing him and taking away his autonomy/choice).  Could you imagine the fallout if Dean just stormed in, dragged Sam away like a child and said "I know better.  You're wrong and I'm right!"    

 

20 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And even though Castiel was reprogrammed, he still seemed to be talking rationally about the situation with Dean. He knew that if Sam was going to beat Lilith, he'd have to consume enough demon blood that it would turn hm into a monster of some kind. Yet Castiel somehow couldn't figure out that letting Sam out of the panic room to go drink more demon blood was a very bad idea or later, after Sam did get out, that keeping Dean from stopping whatever Sam was going to do after drinking that demon blood was a very bad idea. Castiel actually could've gotten get a clue, as evidenced by the fact the he did eventually get one. He just got it way too late.

Cas was still under the influence of angels up until Dean faced him/forced him to rethink in the Green Room.  Everything he did from The Rapture on until then should be considered brainwashed Cas.  For those who think Dean simply being present at Swan Song was enough to break Sam free of Lucifer, this is another example:  Dean challenging Cas and making him think for himself is what broke Cas out of the angel's control and what actually formed TFW.  That was the first time that all the pieces fell into place where everyone finally knew who was on which side, and that was when the boys decided to fight *both* sides and make their own choices.  

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, JanetWaldo said:

All that being said, in my original comment about Sam getting a clue, I was only addressing Sam getting a clue that drinking blood itself was bad - not about the whole killing Lilith/seals breaking thing!  :) 

Ah, okay, got it now - Sam rationalizing using the blood to kill Lilith was in the sentence too, so I smushed them all together in my brain and thought you were saying that Sam should've had some clue about Ruby's long con game, and so that's why the blood drinking was bad - because he should have known Ruby wanted it for ulterior motives.

That Sam probably should have known the blood drinking itself was bad is a good point, but unfortunately we don't know exactly the background of why Sam didn't get a clue, because the writers chose not to address that particular - in my opinion - very important moral event horizon in any fashion, either flashback, Ruby or Sam explanation, anything. We don't even know exactly when it happened that Sam first decided to drink the demon blood, except for the fact that it was sometime before Sam telling Ruby "No, I'm not doing that again" - so we knew Sam had a clue at the point when he said "no", or had decided to at least get a clue for quite a while... at least until "Chris Angel..." and then I personally don't know why Sam lost a clue again, because for me the reasoning why Sam decided to drink the demon blood again wasn't really addressed in depth, and we didn't get to see him struggle with deciding to start up again, because it all happened offscreen with the vague explanation of "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old." How that is supposed to explain Sam falling off the wagon again after weeks of his insisting on staying on and with arguably much more pressure than that case represented, I have no idea, and as I said, since we didn't see it, I don't know how much was decision and how much was addiction. By next time we see the conflict, I'm assuming Ruby has somehow convinced Sam to drink way more - though how, again we don't know - because Sam's addiction seems to be a lot worse than it was when he gave it up in "Metamorphosis."

So while I agree with you, I can't entirely judge Sam's behavior and can only speculate, because I'm missing a big part of the picture.

6 hours ago, JanetWaldo said:

So I agree that Anna was really the only one thinking straight at the beginning, although she also got fooled by Ruby, if I recall.

Good point about being fooled by Ruby. She also made the mistake of trusting Cas, too.

6 hours ago, JanetWaldo said:

Cas was not thinking straight after his reprogramming. 

True, though what makes me question how damaging the programming was and whether he could've done more are his little moments of doubt when he seems to know he shouldn't be doing what he is doing. His "You shouldn't have come" to Anna being the biggest example. It also doesn't explain his actions in "On the Head of a Pin" (more on this below) up until "The Rapture" when he finally decides to say something - though we don't know what - when it is also too late.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And we`d still have had the gaping "OMG, this turn of events is shocking" face with it that marked her as seriously dumb where it counted.  

So, so stupid... or considering Ruby's elaborate con, she's maybe a good example of "penny wise, dollar foolish" except instead of money, intelligence is the currency. Good at the details of conniving, but still wins the Darwin Award for entirely missing the big picture.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And Dean had just returned from hell and despite the show minimizing and belittling it in upcoming years, he suffered enough trauma that I can give him a break on not figuring everything out.

I don't disagree. I even mentioned in the original thread that it was a big factor in Dean's not seeing how far gone Sam was and that Sam wasn't going to listen to reason.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

He only kept a positive relationship with Cas who did genuinely try to help him out in the Season 4 Finale. It might have been too late but IMO it warranted the exemption from the "angels are dicks" rule.  

I somewhat disagree on this however. Castiel's help, in my opinion, was questionable, even in the finale. That was due to the reprogramming, but still... However, Dean was not made aware of the deceptions, so I understand how he was a bit fooled. But for me, however, Castiel doesn't entirely get out of the "angels are dicks" classification in season 4 even if he is partially still in that "dick" classification due to probable denial or angel arrogance... see more explanation below.

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

 Both Sam and Dean believed their respective sides held the only way to win 1) (and TBH, I think most people who were out to save the world would think that working with angels was better than working with demons in the absence of any proof to the contrary.)  AFAIK, the only angel Dean trusted was Cas, who honestly (aside from the blip when he was reprogrammed) was obeying what he thought were "righteous" orders direct from God, just like the only demon Sam trusted was Ruby, and he honestly thought she was trying to help.  Neither one knew what was going on behind the scenes.  It was just who they chose to trust.  Both were being played by those very beings (I started to say "people," but, well...) they trusted, so both had their trust betrayed. 2) Neither one trusted the other angels or demons.

3) I'm not sure what you mean by "revisionist" history except maybe the eps years later where Sam was mentioned as the one who brought on the Apocalypse, but I think most fans know about Dean's role (and have brought it up time and again, on both sides) so it hasn't been forgotten or whitewashed by viewers, even if TPTB don't choose to mention it (just like they never mention Dean's time in hell any more).   I think "revisionist history" is on all sides, so there's no point to getting upset about one more than the other. 

1) True, but there never was an absence of proof scenario in this case. Ruby was there - and appearing to help - long before the angels showed up. And even after they showed up she made sure to make herself appear more "helpful" than the angels.

2) Also true, though even up until the end, Sam didn't really trust Ruby entirely. he just did believe in / trust her "enemy of my enemy" standing, not realizing it wasn't true after all.

3) I wasn't at all implying the fans. I entirely meant the show ("narrative.") And it isn't even a Sam/Dean thing that I'm referring to here. The role of the angels, the demons, God, fate, etc. was pretty much downplayed starting in season 5. All the little details that could have come out to lessen it being painted as mostly Sam's "bad choices" as it kept being referred to, didn't. The angels letting Sam out, the changed phone call from Dean, Anna's betrayal. Most of that was downplayed, and Anna's betrayal was glossed over and she got turned into a bad guy.

I agree with you though about the revisionist history being on both sides.

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Well, no one (except Uriel, Zach and whoever was giving the orders) knew what was going on except what they were told, so it was a question of belief.  (Remember, Dean wasn't conscious when Alistair told Sam that demons weren't killing the angels.)  Sam should have told him afterwards, but they were both in such bad shape (and at such odds) that we don't know what information was shared.  Not that I'm saying Sam withheld anything on purpose, but, in between the rush of power, the high of killing Alistair,  and his fear for Dean's life afterwards, he might not have remembered it or realized its implications.  Even so, it's a long jump from "demons aren't killing the angels" to "angels are in the middle of a major civil war," at least at that point in the story.  Uriel was considered part of a rogue group who wanted Lucifer out because they chose to follow him, not part of a conspiracy throughout the upper echelons of heaven to start the apocalypse.  Uriel and Zachariah were actually on opposite sides, even if they both wanted the same result--that is, the Apocalypse.  But there was no reason (at that time) for anyone to think that they were both working against humans.

This is a good point. I had forgotten that Dean was likely unconscious. The interesting thing is that even Sam didn't know it was the angels killing each other. He only knew - because he figured out - that it wasn't the demons who were doing it. Actually the only one who knew it was angels killing angels is Castiel... and he conveniently omitted telling this information to Dean, even as he was trying to convince Dean - and seeming to believe, too - that Dean was their main hope in stopping things... which entirely not cool Cas. So even if Sam did tell Dean that it wasn't the demons, they still wouldn't have had the entire picture.

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Cas was still under the influence of angels up until Dean faced him/forced him to rethink in the Green Room.  Everything he did from The Rapture on until then should be considered brainwashed Cas.

Agreed, but in my opinion this does not excuse Castiel for not telling Dean everything in "On the Head of a Pin" or at the very least telling him something way before "The Rapture." Anna tells Castiel that he has to make his own choices... and Castiel chooses not to tell Dean what he knew: that it was angels killing other angels, and exactly why angels were killing other angels. He is purposely vague in his answer when Dean asks him if Uriel was killed by the demons. Now even though Dean was understandably messed up, him knowing that there were a good number of Lucifer followers out there among the angel faction? And that maybe some of the angels could be actively working to free Lucifer or working against the angels trying to stop the apocalypse? I think that would've been a game-changer in how Dean approached everything. It would at the very least have had Dean questioning throwing in his loyalty with them and/or assuming it was Ruby who let Sam out of the panic room.

I can only imagine Castiel didn't want to tell Dean because he was in denial  and/or didn't want to admit that angels and heaven could allow such disobedience and disloyalty and disarray. However that still doesn't make it right, and it's still, in my opinion, a big error in judgement. And if Castiel didn't tell Dean because he didn't think Dean was strong enough to know it or he didn't want to worry him... then to me that's pretty close to Sam's warped reasoning that Dean was too weak to be the one to stop things.

Instead, Castiel has this important piece of information, and he doesn't tell anyone about it, and just hopes and has faith that it'll just all work out in the good guys' favor. Yeah, nope. Castiel did make sure he told Dean about Sam killing Alastair, however, since Dean mentions it later, so I'm a bit suspect of Castiel's information sharing if he told Dean about that, but not about the Lucifer following angels.

Either that, or Castiel did tell Dean everything and Dean was too broken to process it or use the information. I tend to think that Dean didn't have the information, or he would've been a lot more hesitant in my opinion to get on board with the angels' side.

Edited July 21, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[JanetWaldo]

On 7/21/2017 at 5:06 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

That Sam probably should have known the blood drinking itself was bad is a good point, but unfortunately we don't know exactly the background of why Sam didn't get a clue, because the writers chose not to address that particular - in my opinion - very important moral event horizon in any fashion, either flashback, Ruby or Sam explanation, anything. We don't even know exactly when it happened that Sam first decided to drink the demon blood, except for the fact that it was sometime before Sam telling Ruby "No, I'm not doing that again" - so we knew Sam had a clue at the point when he said "no", or had decided to at least get a clue for quite a while... at least until "Chris Angel..." and then I personally don't know why Sam lost a clue again, because for me the reasoning why Sam decided to drink the demon blood again wasn't really addressed in depth, and we didn't get to see him struggle with deciding to start up again, because it all happened offscreen with the vague explanation of "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old." How that is supposed to explain Sam falling off the wagon again after weeks of his insisting on staying on and with arguably much more pressure than that case represented, I have no idea, and as I said, since we didn't see it, I don't know how much was decision and how much was addiction. By next time we see the conflict, I'm assuming Ruby has somehow convinced Sam to drink way more - though how, again we don't know - because Sam's addiction seems to be a lot worse than it was when he gave it up in "Metamorphosis."

All very good points about not knowing why or how Sam started drinking demon blood in the first place and his rather vague motivation to take it back up after Criss Angel.  But, in my opinion, the fact that he did quit for awhile, and seemed to realize it was bad and was able to say no to Ruby at least once, as you mentioned above, supports my original comment that even at the height of his blood addiction, Sam was capable of some rational thought, so he should have been able to realize drinking demon blood was wrong and not be "rationalizing" it away the way other drug addicts do (not meth addicts, because as previously stated, they don't even bother to rationalize) especially after The Prophet Chuck! told him it was wrong.

[companionenvy]

I agree that we should have gotten more insight into how Sam first made the choice to start drinking the demon blood, and why he began doing so again. But even without seeing the full process play out onscreen, it is fairly clear that one reason was that the demon blood actually did enable him to save lives. Meth doesn't do that. It is one reason I've always found S4 Sam so sympathetic.

[JanetWaldo]

32 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

But even without seeing the full process play out onscreen, it is fairly clear that one reason was that the demon blood actually did enable him to save lives. Meth doesn't do that. It is one reason I've always found S4 Sam so sympathetic.

That's really sweet!  (I honestly mean that!)  I wish I could feel the same way, but I just didn't think Sam in S4 was very sympathetic at all. 

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

But even without seeing the full process play out onscreen, it is fairly clear that one reason was that the demon blood actually did enable him to save lives. Meth doesn't do that.

Although, did it really help him save lives? I mean, wasn't that what he told himself to rationalize drinking the demon blood, but in reality I don't think it allowed him to do anything he couldn't have done without it. Don't get me wrong, I think the blood had a physical effect on Sam and allowed him to pull the demons out, but he could do that with a simple exorcism. And, eventually, the blood allowed him to get strong enough to kill the demon, but it killed the host too; which is what he did with Ruby's knife. I actually wonder how many people he actually helped with his powers in the end? I would bet he ended up doing more harm than good in the end and especially did a lot of harm to Sam himself. Which, IMO, was really why was drinking the demon blood; Sam was trying to destroy himself.

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Although, did it really help him save lives? I mean, wasn't that what he told himself to rationalize drinking the demon blood, but in reality I don't think it allowed him to do anything he couldn't have done without it. Don't get me wrong, I think the blood had a physical effect on Sam and allowed him to pull the demons out, but he could do that with a simple exorcism. And, eventually, the blood allowed him to get strong enough to kill the demon, but it killed the host too; which is what he did with Ruby's knife. I actually wonder how many people he actually helped with his powers in the end? I would bet he ended up doing more harm than good in the end and especially did a lot of harm to Sam himself. Which, IMO, was really why was drinking the demon blood; Sam was trying to destroy himself.

I know.  I agree. In Metamorphosis, Sam said "I've said more people in a year than we've saved all our lives." Sorry, I used quotes, but I praraphrased.  Anyway, I wondered at the time, how?  All he is doing is exorcising them.  At that point, he still needed them in  a devil's trap and tied up.   Or, maybe that was just for questioning purposes. But, even so, he didn't seem to do it much faster than with an exorcism.  Not until much, much later, could he do multiple demons at the same time.

[JanetWaldo]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I actually wonder how many people he actually helped with his powers in the end? I would bet he ended up doing more harm than good in the end and especially did a lot of harm to Sam himself.

Yeah, I agree.  I don't think it really saved as many lives as Sam pretended - there were probably just enough along the way for him to keep fooling himself.

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Which, IMO, was really why was drinking the demon blood; Sam was trying to destroy himself.

Ooh, now that's something I hadn't considered!  Very Interesting....

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

But, even so, he didn't seem to do it much faster than with an exorcism.  Not until much, much later, could he do multiple demons at the same time.

I agree & I actually found it more impressive when he recited vs using his powers. For an example when he exorcised Henriksen and his superior in Jus In Bello vs the demon in Lazarus Rising. The former was much more awesome as compared to the latter IMO.

[catrox14]

I've never really understood  it if was really the demon blood that let him use his Hand of Ipecac or if he just did with his psychic powers and it was easier for Sam to believe it was the demon blood than his psychic powers because then he really was the freak he didn't want to be. 

Ruby says it was the demon blood but Ruby had every reason to lie to get Sam to kill Lilith.

[companionenvy]

I've always wondered that too, Catrox. While I think in the moment the show intended us to believe that the demon blood was just a crutch, the fact that Sam has never since used powers would suggest to me that the demon blood was a necessary component. 

In either case, even if it was psychological, I do think we're supposed to believe that the powers let Sam save more people -- even if not as many as he had thought. And I imagine that would have had to be part of Ruby's initial pitch to Sam. It wouldn't have been "drink demon blood. It tastes really good." It would have been "You can save these people, and here's how."

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree & I actually found it more impressive when he recited vs using his powers. For an example when he exorcised Henriksen and his superior in Jus In Bello vs the demon in Lazarus Rising. The former was much more awesome as compared to the latter IMO.

I could be not remembering correctly, but wasn't one of the 'perks' of Sam's powers that the demon wasn't only exorcised, but killed (like when the knife is used) but the host was not killed?  When they exorcise demons, that leaves the demon 'alive' also - only banished back to Hell and then they can crawl back out again to possess people again.  

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Ruby says it was the demon blood but Ruby had every reason to lie to get Sam to kill Lilith.

But in Lucifer Rising, Ruby also said:

Quote

Ruby: No. It wasn't the blood. It was you... and your choices. I just gave you the options, and you chose the right path every time. You didn't need the feather to fly, you had it in you the whole time, Dumbo! 

@companionenvy still has a good point about Sam not using his powers since.  So maybe I'm interpreting that line from Ruby wrong, and she was only talking about Sam blaming his choices on the demon blood (that he didn't need to be addicted to the demon blood to make the wrong choice), not the actual psychic powers.  

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I could be not remembering correctly, but wasn't one of the 'perks' of Sam's powers that the demon wasn't only exorcised, but killed (like when the knife is used) but the host was not killed?  When they exorcise demons, that leaves the demon 'alive' also - only banished back to Hell and then they can crawl back out again to possess people again.  

Nope.  The first demon Sam was able to kill like that was Alistair.  Clearly that vessel would have been dead anyway, but the way he was lighting up like they do when you Rubyknife them or use the Colt tells me, Sam's killing psychic powers kill the vessel.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I could be not remembering correctly, but wasn't one of the 'perks' of Sam's powers that the demon wasn't only exorcised, but killed (like when the knife is used) but the host was not killed?  When they exorcise demons, that leaves the demon 'alive' also - only banished back to Hell and then they can crawl back out again to possess people again.  

But in Lucifer Rising, Ruby also said:

@companionenvy still has a good point about Sam not using his powers since.  So maybe I'm interpreting that line from Ruby wrong, and she was only talking about Sam blaming his choices on the demon blood (that he didn't need to be addicted to the demon blood to make the wrong choice), not the actual psychic powers.  

Yeah I think that was more about Sam making the choices that got him there, one of which was using the demon blood, not that it was the demon blood compelling him to make those choices.  The whole demon blood thing really muddies whether or not the demon blood more like a placebo effect on Sam than actually doing anything.  

I wish they would have left the demon blood out of Swan Song.

[DeeDee79]

19 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I could be not remembering correctly, but wasn't one of the 'perks' of Sam's powers that the demon wasn't only exorcised, but killed (like when the knife is used) but the host was not killed?  When they exorcise demons, that leaves the demon 'alive' also - only banished back to Hell and then they can crawl back out again to possess people again.

I don't have a strong recollection of season 4 so you could very well be remembering that correctly. I guess that would make sense regarding powers vs verbal exorcism. Later it seems to have become a moot point as stabbing with the demon knife became the preferred method :(

[DittyDotDot]

35 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

In either case, even if it was psychological, I do think we're supposed to believe that the powers let Sam save more people -- even if not as many as he had thought. And I imagine that would have had to be part of Ruby's initial pitch to Sam. It wouldn't have been "drink demon blood. It tastes really good." It would have been "You can save these people, and here's how."

I guess I just look at it as: just because Sam believed he was saving people, doesn't mean he really was.

TBH, I think the reason Sam started drinking the demon blood was simply because he was trying to destroy himself after failing to save Dean. But, once he started drinking the blood, it made him feel in control instead of that kid being pushed around the universe's playground. By the time Dean comes back he was so hooked on the feeling he couldn't give it up. He told himself he was doing it to save people, but IMO, he just liked feeling as though he was in control.

32 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So maybe I'm interpreting that line from Ruby wrong, and she was only talking about Sam blaming his choices on the demon blood (that he didn't need to be addicted to the demon blood to make the wrong choice), not the actual psychic powers.

That's always been my interpretation. I believe the demon blood did give him powers, but Sam didn't actually need those powers to end up in that church.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

27 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Nope.  The first demon Sam was able to kill like that was Alistair.  Clearly that vessel would have been dead anyway, but the way he was lighting up like they do when you Rubyknife them or use the Colt tells me, Sam's killing psychic powers kill the vessel.

I went back and checked.  According to Metamorphosis, Sam is only exorcising the demons.  He says he can send them back to Hell, so I was wrong about 'killing' the demon, unless Sam was lying right then (which is possible, imo - as this was right after Dean discovered what Sam and Ruby were doing - not the blood drinking yet though - and Sam was trying to minimize the fallout.)  Then there's this exchange:

Quote

SAM
I'm pulling demons out of innocent people.

DEAN
Use the knife!

SAM
The knife kills the victim! What I do, most of them survive! 

So the goal (for Sam, I think) was to save the host, which the knife didn't do.  However, this almost makes it sound like the knife doesn't 'kill' the demon either.  

ETA: and the first guy that Dean witness Sam 'exorcising' does survive as Sam has Ruby take him to the ER.

Edited July 24, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
Survivors

[catrox14]

I think Sam wanted to convince himself that he was doing it a better way.

Wasn't there a time where they would try to save the meatsuit after using the demon knife unless they decided it was too far gone after being abused by the demon inside?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

25 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Later it seems to have become a moot point as stabbing with the demon knife became the preferred method :(

True - but wasn't that after Sam 'lost' his psychic powers?

[DittyDotDot]

You know, this conversation had me thinking of how Crowley was feeding Dean those demons to keep him satisfied. Makes me wonder if half the demons Sam exorcised with his demon blood powers were demons Ruby was "feeding" to him?

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Wasn't there a time where they would try to save the meatsuit after using the demon knife unless they decided it was too far gone after being abused by the demon inside?

Not only that, but exorcising the demon didn't stop the demon from possessing someone else--after climbing back out of Hell again, of course--or informing the demon hierarchy of what Sam and Dean were up to. In the long run, exorcising doesn't necessarily save lives. That's why the job is hard, sometimes there is no clear cut saving option out there.

[Katy M]

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I went back and checked.  According to Metamorphosis, Sam is only exorcising the demons.  He says he can send them back to Hell, so I was wrong about 'killing' the demon, unless Sam was lying right then (which is possible, imo - as this was right after Dean discovered what Sam and Ruby were doing - not the blood drinking yet though - and Sam was trying to minimize the fallout.)  Then there's this exchange:

We actually see the smoke come out of the demons and go through the floorboards, so, no, I don't think he's lying.

 

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So the goal (for Sam, I think) was to save the host, which the knife didn't do.  However, this almost makes it sound like the knife doesn't 'kill' the demon either.  

Dean's just telling him to use the knife, because it's quick and easy and not "creepy."  I don't think that exchange was ever meant to imply that the knife doesn't kill the demon.

 

10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Not only that, but exorcising the demon didn't stop the demon from possessing someone else--after climbing back out of Hell again, of course--or informing the demon hierarchy of what Sam and Dean were up to. In the long run, exorcising doesn't necessarily save lives. That's why the job is hard, sometimes there is no clear cut saving option out there.

Depending on what season it is, it may be hard to crawl back out of hell.  In Devil's Trap, Bobby says he hears of one or two possessions of year, but this year there had been a lot.  Crossroad Blues, Dean said it wasn't easy for demons to crawl back out of Hell.  All Hell breaks Loose, Azazel had to get the gates of Hell opened to get a demon army out, and apparently that was the only way Lillith could get out.  Yet, by On the HEad of a Pin, Alistair is apparently coming and going as he pleases.  But, fast forward to We Need to TAlk aBout Kevin, and Crowley thinks it's important to once again open a devil's gate to let demons out.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

We actually see the smoke come out of the demons and go through the floorboards, so, no, I don't think he's lying.

I know he was getting the demon out of the host.  What I meant was that I was unsure of whether Sam was simply exorcising the demon and sending it back to Hell (as he said) or actually 'killing' it.  When the black smoke would go into the floorboards, it would burn like coals afterward.  So I wonder if that was the equivalent of the flashing light inside a demon meaning that the demon was 'dying' when they stabbed it with the knife.

Which, I'm not exactly sure what 'killing' would mean to a demon.  Would they go to Purgatory?  Or The Empty?  Or just cease to exist?

And to further complicate things, I checked Supernaturalwiki.com and it says that Sam could kill demons with his powers.  Which means that he was lying to Dean about only exorcising them.

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Depending on what season it is, it may be hard to crawl back out of hell.

I think Meg also mentioned that it wasn't easy for her to crawl back out of hell.  

12 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

You know, this conversation had me thinking of how Crowley was feeding Dean those demons to keep him satisfied. Makes me wonder if half the demons Sam exorcised with his demon blood powers were demons Ruby was "feeding" to him?

I wouldn't doubt it.  Kind of like "The Whore" (of Babylon) in 99 problems was 'feeding' demons to the townspeople to get them to believe and trust her.  

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And to further complicate things, I checked Supernaturalwiki.com and it says that Sam could kill demons with his powers.  Which means that he was lying to Dean about only exorcising them.

Not at first. Sam couldn't kill the demons until he got stronger much later in the season. Alistair is the first demon we see him kill. I think he was being truthful--about that, anyway--to Dean in Metamorphosis; he could only pull the demons out and send them back to hell at that point. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I know he was getting the demon out of the host.  What I meant was that I was unsure of whether Sam was simply exorcising the demon and sending it back to Hell (as he said) or actually 'killing' it.  When the black smoke would go into the floorboards, it would burn like coals afterward.  So I wonder if that was the equivalent of the flashing light inside a demon meaning that the demon was 'dying' when they stabbed it with the knife.

Which, I'm not exactly sure what 'killing' would mean to a demon.  Would they go to Purgatory?  Or The Empty?  Or just cease to exist?

And to further complicate things, I checked Supernaturalwiki.com and it says that Sam could kill demons with his powers.  Which means that he was lying to Dean about only exorcising them.

I think that the smoke going through the floorboards meant that the smoke was going back to Hell.  When he killed Alistair, he lit up like he was being stabbed or shot by the Colt.  I think killing a demon means that they cease to exist.  Since Sam and Dean have both been to Purgatory and Cas was hosting most of the Purgatory creatures for an episode, I think we would know if they wound up there.  He wasn't lying to Dean, because like I said before, he could only kill them at a later date.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Well if he wasn't actually killing the demons (at least at first) then it makes absolutely no sense that he wasn't just using the exorcism ritual instead of drinking demon blood - and I really have to wonder, like @AwesomO4000 why on earth he would start drinking demon blood in the first place?  Except as @DittyDotDot says, he was trying to destroy himself.  Which makes a lot more sense in light of the fact that he wasn't actually doing anything with his psychic powers that he couldn't do before with a spell/ritual. Hm.

[Wayward Son]

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Not at first. Sam couldn't kill the demons until he got stronger much later in the season. Alistair is the first demon we see him kill. I think he was being truthful--about that, anyway--to Dean in Metamorphosis; he could only pull the demons out and send them back to hell at that point. 

 I agree with @DittyDotDot, his first use of the ability came during his encounter with Alastair. Sam says as much before killing him. 

Quote

Alastair: "Oh, go ahead. Send me back, if you can." 

 

Sam: "I'm stronger than that now. Now I can kill"

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well if he wasn't actually killing the demons (at least at first) then it makes absolutely no sense that he wasn't just using the exorcism ritual instead of drinking demon blood - and I really have to wonder, like @AwesomO4000 why on earth he would start drinking demon blood in the first place?  Except as @DittyDotDot says, he was trying to destroy himself.  Which makes a lot more sense in light of the fact that he wasn't actually doing anything with his psychic powers that he couldn't do before with a spell/ritual. Hm.

He may have known that he would eventually get strong enough to kill demons.  But, it also had other benefits of making him immune to demon flingings and such. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

But, it also had other benefits of making him immune to demon flingings and such. 

But not Demon flings.  ;)

[catrox14]

I think the demon blood drinking was all about the psycho-sexual connection to Ruby.

IMO, Kripke/Singer wanted Sam and Ruby to bone and they had to find a reason for Sam to do that because he couldn't do it without a really compelling reason. Grief wouldn't be enough for the audience to accept it. 

Plus they had to give Ruby a way to manipulate Sam. If the writers are worth their salt they knew what the end was at the beginning. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

He may have known that he would eventually get strong enough to kill demons.  But, it also had other benefits of making him immune to demon flingings and such. 

Plus, after he got good enough at it (post-Alistair?) he didn't have to have them restrained/in a Devil's Trap, he could just raise the Hand of Ipecac (oh how I love that). I believe all the exorcisms we saw required them to be trapped long enough to perform it?

I think Dean, and possibly even other hunters, could've come to accept his powers eventually, especially if he was indeed saving lives. Clearly, the hunting community accepts psychics (Missouri, Pamela),  'good' witches (at least in S12), etc. But consorting with a demon and drinking her blood? That was never going to fly with anyone, and that's the position they needed Sam to be in.

Edited July 25, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Clearly, the hunting community accepts psychics (Missouri, Pamela),  'good' witches (at least in S12), etc

I think it depended on the hunter.  In Hunted, Gordon said "well, they're psychics, so they're not pure human."  In All Hell Breaks Loose, Dean says "I'm not some psychic" in a somewhat disdainful tone.  I'm not saying that hunters go around killing psychics or that they don't find them useful on occasion, but I think to say that the community at large is accepting of them, may not be strictly true.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Moved from Spoilers thread:

50 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Did they specify it was this year (well, season 12, anyway)?

37 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

They were referring to S11 and I believe it was the Duo's script E21.  The J's talked about it previously at a con.  They thought the crew was pranking them with the script it was so off.

34 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

OK, that makes sense (that it was the Duo).  And that Singer let it pass until the boys brought it up.  Ep 21 was directed by Thomas Wright, not SInger.  The only one that fits the description of Singer, season 11 and the Duo is O Brother Where Art Thou, which, yeah.  

Thanks for the responses!  Singer didn't specify which season it was and he said he couldn't remember the episode.  

Any idea which scene it was in 11.21 if that was it?  Was it the one where Sam fanboys about God?  (That would kind of make sense)

I looked at O Brother Where Art Thou's transcript too, and I just couldn't find a scene where that swap would have been possible, as most of the dialogue between Sam and Dean were pretty character specific (Dean was dealing with Amara, Sam with Lucifer).

Curiosity has got the better of me! 

Edited July 25, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Was it the one where Sam fanboys about God?

That seems in character.  He fanboyed a bit when he met Cas, also. 

Although, now I realize I'm not sure what you're asking.  ARe you saying that the way that it ended up on screen is what they read and they thought the characters were switched.  Or are you saying that the characters were switched and it was corrected for filming and we're supposed to figure out a scene which would at least make some semblance of sense, while still being odd, if the parts were switched?  Or is it something completely different?  I realize that you moved this from the spoilers thread to get more responses, but I try to stay away from spoilers and I'm not sure it's completely clear from what you have here, what you're asking.  Or, maybe it's just me.

[ahrtee]

33 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Moved from Spoilers thread:

Thanks for the responses!  Singer didn't specify which season it was and he said he couldn't remember the episode.  

Any idea which scene it was in 11.21 if that was it?  Was it the one where Sam fanboys about God?  (That would kind of make sense)

I looked at O Brother Where Art Thou's transcript too, and I just couldn't find a scene where that swap would have been possible, as most of the dialogue between Sam and Dean were pretty character specific (Dean was dealing with Amara, Sam with Lucifer).

Curiosity has got the better of me! 

Well, if it was definitely an ep that Singer directed, that lets out 11.21.  The other ones he directed in season 11 were 11.1 (which was written by Carver) and 11.20, Don't Call Me Shurley, which was written by Robbie Thompson, who IMO knows the boys better than any other writer,.

I also looked at the O Brother transcript, and IA there were very few scenes even where the boys were together (so they could be blocked together) but I did find this one scene:

Dean: We’re not saying it’s going to happen. We just want to know...

Sam: theoretically...

Dean: if it’s possible.

Crowley: The Cage is a can of worms you do not want to open. I believe this conversation is over... [Crowley prepares to snap his fingers].

Dean: Is it? Crowley, you know that the Darkness is going to pound on everything and that includes you.

Sam: Yeah. And you had a shot at taking her out when she was with you, but apparently you thought that sucking up was the way to go.

Dean: And that didn’t work out so well.

Crowley (speaking to Dean): Because she chose you. And you couldn’t control your girlfriend. What happened in that room? Why did she insist on sparing you?

Sam looks quizzically at Dean and then Crowley.

Crowley: What is she to you?

Dean: Wanna know what she is Crowley? How about God’s sister!

Crowley: God’s sister? He has relatives? I had that kind of leverage under my thumb and I let it slip away.

Dean: Can we focus on the big picture here okay? Can Sam meet with Lucifer or not?

Sam: In the Cage.

Dean: No, not in the Cage. That’s not going to happen.

Sam: Okay, then I don’t meet with Lucifer. Dean, we can’t let him out.

The bolded parts did seem like they could have been flipped (especially Sam saying Crowley was "sucking up" seems way more Dean-like than Sam-like), and Dean seems a little too calm/reasonable.  And I could see (on the final bolded part) Dean just putting his foot down and say "OK, then you don't meet with Lucifer."    

Just a thought.  

ETA: Though I don't see that the change makes it better, unless they wanted Dean to take the lead being aggressive with Crowley about the meeting with Lucifer instead of Sam, considering how freaked Sam was supposed to be.  

Edited July 25, 2017 by ahrtee
another thought...

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I think it depended on the hunter.  In Hunted, Gordon said "well, they're psychics, so they're not pure human."  In All Hell Breaks Loose, Dean says "I'm not some psychic" in a somewhat disdainful tone.  I'm not saying that hunters go around killing psychics or that they don't find them useful on occasion, but I think to say that the community at large is accepting of them, may not be strictly true.

Yeah, but a lot has changed since S1/S2 as far as attitudes go, and Pamela seemed to be a known asset in S4. And the witch twins in S12 were quite open about it in a room full of hunters. If If I recall, the hunters in 5x03 wanted Sam to use his power and went as far as trying to pour the blood down his throat.