All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 hours ago, lmdreamer said:

One thing that bugs me about the bunker:  why don't the boys use it as a resource to help people more?  there have been many cases where the victim or the girl of the week needed a place to crash or obviously needed to be observed for a while and they just say either "good luck" or "be good".  A couple glaring examples was the girl from "about a boy"  or Madga from "American Nightmare".  And lets not even talk about Kevin who sam and dean don't even think about bringing him to the bunker until after he gets kidnapped in season 8 and if they would have brought him sooner much of season 9 and on could have been prevented. (Metatron) Or am I way off base and there are cases of them using the bunker that way? Besides charlie and Eileen?

I agree about Kevin - always wondered why it took them so long to move him in there.  

I don't know about Magda though - she was on her way to her aunt's house, who she knew.  For an underage teenager to move in with two adult men she barely knew - just the thought of that is weird.  

The girl from "About a Boy" - well, she was an adult, even though at the end in a teenagers body.  I'm thinking it was her choice to head out on her own.  

But other than Kevin (finally) Charlie, Eileen, Cas, and Mary - I think that's it.  Oh, well, they did also host Lucifer and Chuck, so there's that...

[Katy M]

And, let's not forget.  Kevin did end up dying INSIDE the bunker.  Charlie was safe elsewhere and was killed because Rowena was annoying her. So, I think, in theory, if she had been at the bunker she would have done the same thing. Or, she could have gone there and just told dean she needed to work on something and not told him what and that she needed privacy.  He would have respected that, as long as he had no idea it was BOD stuff. 

I'll agree that it would have been weird for Magda to live with them, but up to a few days earlier she was accidentally killing people. They really needed to send her to someone who could teach her to harness her powers.  I mean, obviously it ended up not mattering, but she probably would have killed again, either accidentally or on purpose, because she had no control. 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I mean, obviously it ended up not mattering, but she probably would have killed again, either accidentally or on purpose, because she had no contro

I thought she had control but it was when she was being abused by her mother that she lashed out with her powers.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought she had control but it was when she was being abused by her mother that she lashed out with her powers.

I agree that the abuse is what caused her to misuse her powers, but she didn't want to kill the social worker or the delivery boy.  She was just trying to make them hear her.  I would call unintended consequences of what you're trying to do, not having control. 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I agree that the abuse is what caused her to misuse her powers, but she didn't want to kill the social worker or the delivery boy.  She was just trying to make them hear her.  I would call unintended consequences of what you're trying to do, not having control. 

I get what you mean. Makes me wonder if the unintended consequence was more a symptom of the ongoing abuse, like she was always under so much stress and duress that she couldn't control them. Her emotions were all mixed up. I was thinking that once she went to her aunt's that she would get some therapy to help her deal with PTSD and then she could get all that settled down, not necessarily even someone in the supernatural world.

I'm not sure her living in the bunker would have helped her with all that. I mean it's not like the boys are particularly stress free. Also her living in the bunker as it turns out wouldn't have made her any more safe from the BMOL sicne they knew how to get in anyway.

[DittyDotDot]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought she had control but it was when she was being abused by her mother that she lashed out with her powers.

I don't think she understood what her powers were. She was just trying to get someone to hear her, but had no idea they were experiencing what she was experiencing. 

That being said, I don't know that she needed to go to the bunker. I think she was probably better off with her aunt. It was someone she knew and could probably help guide her better. Although, presumably Missouri is still up and kicking, that wouldn't have been a bad choice either.

[Katy M]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not sure her living in the bunker would have helped her with all that. I mean it's not like the boys are particularly stress free. Also her living in the bunker as it turns out wouldn't have made her any more safe from the BMOL sicne they knew how to get in anyway.

No, I definitely wasn't thinking the bunker.  I figured if they knew someone else like Pamela, she could help.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

No, I definitely wasn't thinking the bunker.  I figured if they knew someone else like Pamela, she could help.

Oh she could have been sent to see Missouri! What a missed opportunity for at minimum, a Missouri mention!

RIP Pamela :(

[lmdreamer]

I see what everyone is saying about Madga.  It would be nice to see the boys name dropping more resources to people who may need them such as they could have referred kate to garth or mentioned jordy or donna a few more times among others we may or may not ever meet. I just want to see a little more follow through with certain motw cases even if its just a mention.  Like for example have they ever checked on Kristy Chambers and friends? Garth was supposed to but then he wolfed out and went awol.

Edited June 2, 2017 by lmdreamer

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, lmdreamer said:

I see what everyone is saying about Madga.  It would be nice to see the boys name dropping more resources to people who may need them such as they could have referred kate to garth or mentioned jordy or donna a few more times among others we may or may not ever meet. I just want to see a little more follow through with certain motw cases even if its just a mention.  Like for example have they ever checked on Kristy Chambers and friends? Garth was supposed to but then he wolfed out and went awol.

Not as far as I know. Which in this one instance, I think I okay with. ;)

[Airmid]

22 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I agree about Kevin - always wondered why it took them so long to move him in there.  

While at first I didn't get why they didn't run down and pick up Kevin ASAP after realizing what the bunker was (and given that season and the writers lack of map skills or having driven anywhere ever, it would have only taken like five minutes tops :P) later on it became obvious that there were plot elements coming up later. Which fine, fair enough, but they could have gotten rid of all that weirdness with some throw away lines that played off of how Kevin was getting more and more paranoid and wigged out over everything. 

Would have made more sense than: Random people we just met? Sure let's take them into our super secret club house and blab about stuff while leaving highly powerful knowledge and items laying around. That prophet dude that's transcribing how to close hell and is being kept on a rusty houseboat while he slowly descends into madness and hallucinates? Nah, man, he's good. Bet he likes the smell of mixing corrosion and sea. Let's make burgers!

It especially didn't help with Sam proudly telling people they were legacies so keeping things secret and safe kind of went to the wayside early on. It especially doesn't help that they didn't immediately move Kevin because it may have also saved his mom a lot if she came with (even if it drove everyone else nuts) as she was valuable to Crowley as leverage. But, against, plot points so meh. 

Later on, after Kevin died there and everybody and all their questionable friends could get in, it stopped being an overly safe place so not bringing people there for aid or safety made more sense. I guess.

19 hours ago, lmdreamer said:

I see what everyone is saying about Madga.  It would be nice to see the boys name dropping more resources to people who may need them such as they could have referred kate to garth or mentioned jordy or donna a few more times among others we may or may not ever meet. I just want to see a little more follow through with certain motw cases even if its just a mention.  Like for example have they ever checked on Kristy Chambers and friends? Garth was supposed to but then he wolfed out and went awol.

I kind of wish they would weave in other people through conversation here and there over episodes. Not only would it give less of a 'these people stop existing' feeling when not on screen but also make some infodumps about more main characters less jarring if info was shared about everybody here and there to me. YMMV on that.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, Airmid said:

It especially didn't help with Sam proudly telling people they were legacies

That was actually Dean.

[Airmid]

Just now, Katy M said:

That was actually Dean.

For the pagan gods one. I thought Sam did in Everybody Hates Hitler. But memory is fuzzy so I could definitely be wrong on that account. :)

Though I should have put it as both blabbed, though in fairness to Dean they were already sitting in the Bunker so it was a bit late to try to pretend it was just an understaffed Hilton with strange décor or something.

[Pondlass1]

45 minutes ago, Airmid said:

kind of wish they would weave in other people through conversation here and there over episodes

I don't think the writers realize (or care) how much this would mean to fans.  It's probably too much bother for them to check back to earlier characters/events.  

[Katy M]

31 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don't think the writers realize (or care) how much this would mean to fans.  It's probably too much bother for them to check back to earlier characters/events.  

I think part of it is, also, that you have to balance for fans who have watched every episode and for the casual viewer.  Therefore, you don't want to weave in a million names in every epi where peole will be saying "who?"

[Pondlass1]

15 minutes ago, Katy M said:

to weave in a million names in every epi where peole will be saying "who?"

Not a million names, but every once in a while a throwback mention to an old acquaintance or occurrence. Would be nice, I think. There's a 12 year history swept under that carpet. I think this batch of writers write to the casual viewer anyway.

 I personally would prefer they didn't include so many pop culture references.  Seems really cool at the time but really dates and jumps you out while watching early seasons. I can't think of an example right no

[rue721]

I think that what they could do better is to make it feel like we're just getting snippets out of the Winchesters' lives, and that their lives go on offscreen, even when we're not watching.

I don't need to know what's up with all their acquaintances or anything, I just think it would be cool to "believe" that they're doing things and talking to people offscreen. So like, they could be having a conversation about Topic X, and mention something that (for example) Tina said offhand about Topic X in conversation some time in the recent past. Like, I dunno, they turn on the radio and some new song is playing, and they argue over whether it's any good, and one of them mentions that Jodi (or whoever) loves that band. I dunno, just normal stuff like how you bring up friends/family in conversation in real life.

The show does try to make their lives seem like they're ongoing IMO, by having them show up at the bunker after a hunt we didn't see, or ask about conversations that had to have happened between episodes (like Sam asking Dean what he's heard from their mom), or by giving the guys hobbies. But for some reason, the show is especially bad at making relationships between the Winchesters and other characters seem ongoing. Or, not *bad* but disjointed and clumsy.

Edited June 3, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I personally would prefer they didn't include so many pop culture references.  Seems really cool at the time but really dates and jumps you out while watching early seasons. I can't think of an example right no

It's not the early season's pop culture references that dates it for me, it's the later seasons' ones. The early seasons' references were usually old already--lots of '80s movies and TV references. That was part of the charm of the show almost existing outside of time. The current seasons feel like they're trying to be more trendy and current--probably to hook the younger viewers--which dates the show more for me.

15 minutes ago, rue721 said:

The show does try to make their lives seem like they're ongoing IMO, by having them show up at the bunker after a hunt, or refer to conversations that happened between episodes, or by giving the guys hobbies. But for some reason, it's especially bad at making relationships between the Winchesters and other characters seem ongoing. Or, not *bad* but disjointed and clumsy.

Yeah, even the regular characters--other than maybe Jody--feel like they don't exist outside of Sam and Dean. I think they used to, though. Ellen, Jo, Gordon, Hendrikson and even Bobby really felt they were living and doing stuff outside of the show. I still have no idea what Crowley and Cass would be doing on a daily basis when they're not with Sam and Dean. I find it hard to believe that Crowley was spending all his time hanging out in his hell "castle" holding court. And, I swear Cass goes into cryogenic stasis or something when he heads off on his own. 

Anyway, I wouldn't mind callbacks and mentions to people we don't see, but they should still have contact with. I think it helps fill out the universe and makes the show less claustrophobic, myself.

Edited June 3, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I think part of it is, also, that you have to balance for fans who have watched every episode and for the casual viewer.  Therefore, you don't want to weave in a million names in every epi where peole will be saying "who?"

Name dropping Bobby, or Pamela or Ellen or Jo IMO won't confuse a new viewer that much if it's done with exposition. Like with not!Bobby in the finale. They brought him in, made a big deal of who this mystery person was and then it was exposition city. It's not that hard to drop in a clunky line of dialogue that says,

Sam: "You know maybe Magda could use some help from another psychic"

Dean: "Whatever happened to Missouri? She really did help us with ghost Mom the first time we had to go back to the house. You think she's still in Lawrence?"

Boom, done. Exposition fairy explains Missouri's relationship to the boys. It is that simple. Moves the story forward and if the new viewer cares they'll make the connections if they ever go back and watch the rest of the series.

[Res]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

 I personally would prefer they didn't include so many pop culture references.  Seems really cool at the time but really dates and jumps you out while watching early seasons. I can't think of an example right no

ITA. One of the things from season 2, "Crossroads" was the "myspace" reference which was popular back then. But those were few and far between in the earlier season. Now there is something dated in most episodes, like Dean suddenly liking Taylor Swift because the writer's daughter liked the singer. Stuff like that is taking away from the original feel of the show more and more to the point that If I started watching it now, I probably wouldn't be a fan for long.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Res

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, Res said:

ITA. One of the things from season 2, "Crossroads" was the "myspace" reference which was popular back then. But those were few and far between in the earlier season. Now there is something dated in most episodes, like Dean suddenly liking Taylor Swift because the writer's daughter liked the singer. Stuff like that is taking away from the original feel of the show more and more to the point that If I started watching it now, I probably wouldn't be a fan for long.

I think there were more contemporary pop culture references in the first few season, then you realize.   Paris Hilton was mentioned in Bloody Mary and obviously Fallen Idols.  The Medium/Ghostwhisper-Asylum. Katie Holmes-No exit.   Myspace-Crossroad Blues, as you said.  Lindsay Lohan-Croatoan. Jennifer Love Hewitt, Ghost Whisperer-Roadkill.   Ghostfacers was a Ghost Hunters parody.  David Caruso-Time Is on My Side.  Crystal Skull-Monster Movie. 

And that's just what I could think of off the top of my head.  They don't bother me in this show, or any other show.  I see them as putting the shows in context of their time.  I find it more weird and jarring when shows deliberately try not to reference anything contemporary in order to not make the show seem dated.  It's going to have the look and feel of its time whether you intend it, or no, IMO.

[Wayward Son]

I just saw this on Tumblr and WOW! 

 

I just saw this on Tumblr and OMG

http://ibelieveinthelittletreetopper.tumblr.com/image/161515100958

 

 

 

Man the writers / prop team were really screaming out the name of the nephilim at us! 

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I just saw this on Tumblr and WOW! 

 

I just saw this on Tumblr and OMG

http://ibelieveinthelittletreetopper.tumblr.com/image/161515100958

 

 

 

Man the writers / prop team were really screaming out the name of the nephilim at us! 

Well, now I want to watch for every instance this beer sign was seen in s12. HOLY FORESHADOWING, Batman!
 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Moved from the dvd thread.

15 minutes ago, SueB said:

Ode to Prop Porn:

http://snazzyo.tumblr.com/post/161565677480/prop-porn-pt-1-winchester-mythology-hunters

http://snazzyo.tumblr.com/post/161565709265/prop-porn-pt-2-winchester-mythology-hunters

Those are fantastic.  Looking at them reminded me of re-watching Thin Lizzie recently.  I took note of and was really impressed with all the Lizzie paraphernalia in the B&B lobby - they even had a pamphlet for the fictitious B&B!  There is a LOT of research/prep those goes into the episodes that most of the time I just tend to take for granted.  

[Katy M]

OK, so just for funsies, I  counted up, by season, how many episodes I loved, really liked, thought were pretty good, but nothing to write home about, disliked more about than liked and pretty much hated. I was actually kind of surprised by the results

Season 1, loved-12, really liked-4, pretty good-4, kinda disliked-2

Season 2, Loved-7, really liked 6, pretty good3, kinda dislked -1

season 3 loved-4, reall liked 5, pretty good 3, kinda disliked 4

Season 4 loved 9, really liked 5, pretty good 4, kinda disliked 3, hated 1

Season 5, loved 7, really liked 5, pretty good 6, kinda disliked 4

Season 6 loved 5, really liked 3, pretty good 5, ida disliked 4, hated 1

Season 7 loved 6, really liked 8, pretty good 2, kinda disliked 6, hated 1

Season 8 loved 5, really liked 7, pretty good 4, kinda disliked 6, hated 1

Season 9 loved 4, really liked 3, pretty good 6, kinda disliked 8, hated 1--I didn't count Bloodliens because I refuse to acknowledge it exists.

Season 10 Loved 5, really liked 7, pretty good 7, kinda disliked 3, hated 1

Season 11 Loved 4, really liked 7, pretty good 6, kinda disliked 6

Season 12 loved 6, really liked 9, pretty good 4, kida disliked 3, hated 1

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

OK, so just for funsies, I  counted up, by season, how many episodes I loved, really liked, thought were pretty good, but nothing to write home about, disliked more about than liked and pretty much hated. I was actually kind of surprised by the results

Interesting. I think I'll try this, too, but I'm going to take it over to the "Favorite and Least Favorite Lists" thread to continue. I have a feeling my list is going to be a lot different than yours - I can tell already - heh.

[rue721]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

This is probably better in a different thread but since you bring it up my question is:  what is considered a self-sacrifice for the greater good and what is suicide?  Crowley didn't kill himself just to do it. Crowley chose to kill himself to save the world from Lucifer, so I don't think the line is a problem in that case.  I see it as the same as Sam saying yes to Lucifer in s5. It was entirely possible that eventually Sam was going to die in Hell or be killed by Michael and/or Lucifer at some point. Heck the show had Sam say that Dean was going to kill himself by saying yes to Michael, yet the intention was to save the world as best they knew how at that point. Was that really any different than Crowley sacrificing himself to put Lucifer on permanent lockdown in the AU? 

I mean, one difference is that Crowley literally stabbed himself to death. Doing something that will probably result in your death (like e.g. jumping on a grenade) is different, if only in terms of optics, than actively murdering yourself.

But also, I do think there was a lot of suicide imagery in Sam jumping/falling into the pit. Same thing for Sam literally draining his blood and giving it to Crowley during the trials in S8. Same thing for Dean swallowing pills until he was ODing on the floor and same thing for Mary holding a gun to her head. Etc.

They don't generally shy away from the suicide imagery on this show, but IMO it's various levels of in/appropriate based on the context. I think that having Crowley kill himself onscreen was one thing, but having him literally say that he was "winning" by doing it would be over the line into inappropriate/irresponsible territory. Not for every show (wouldn't have a problem with Norman Bates or Walt White doing the same), but for THIS show? Yes, IMHO.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think that having Crowley kill himself onscreen was one thing, but having him literally say that he was "winning" by doing it would be over the line into inappropriate/irresponsible territory. Not for every show (wouldn't have a problem with Norman Bates or Walt White doing the same), but for THIS show? Yes, IMHO.

Sam said at the end of s8 that he was ready to die even when Dean told him to stop. Was that suicidal imagery or self-sacrifice for the greater good? 

Dean offered to be the soul bomb and they all thought he would die. Dean was going to be his own trigger. Dean was essentially setup to be a suicide bomber to save the solar system from Amara killing Ghuck. As far as the Dean's family and friends they thought he did blow himself up to save the world. And that was not considered a bad thing.

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam said at the end of s8 that he was ready to die even when Dean told him to stop. Was that suicidal imagery or self-sacrifice for the greater good? 

Dean offered to be the soul bomb and they all thought he would die. Dean was going to be his own trigger. Dean was essentially setup to be a suicide bomber to save the solar system from Amara killing Ghuck. As far as the Dean's family and friends they thought he did blow himself up to save the world. And that was not considered a bad thing.

I know you didn't ask me, but IMO, Sam was suicidal at the end of S8. He was tired and had given up and just wanted it to be over--it wasn't about closing the gates of Hell anymore, but just ending his suffering.

I'd say it was more sacrifice than suicide with Dean at the end of S11, though. Dean allowed himself to be the bomb as a last resort, but he didn't want to die. In fact, I'd say he very hesitant about the dying part, IMO.

And, even though you didn't ask, I'd say Mary was suicidal when she held the gun to her head in First Blood. Yes, she was also doing it so Sam or Dean wouldn't have to, but, IMO, it was more about ending her own suffering.

[rue721]

7 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

Drunk on booze not that I can recall but Crowley was drunk on human blood.. not the same thing though but maybe that's the only thing that makes them drunk!

From another thread but...

Imagine if you could NEVER AGAIN take the edge off? Sucks. I mean, obviously some people are able to and have to do it in real life. But being an immortal demon, doomed to perpetual internal torment for eternity, and you can't even get a little toasted sometimes? Shoot the shit and just relax? Damn. No pun intended (pun sorta intended!).

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

From another thread but...

Imagine if you could NEVER AGAIN take the edge off? Sucks. I mean, obviously some people are able to and have to do it in real life. But being an immortal demon, doomed to perpetual internal torment for eternity, and you can't even get a little toasted sometimes? Shoot the shit and just relax? Damn. No pun intended (pun sorta intended!).

That was some awesome pun! ;)

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

From another thread but...

Imagine if you could NEVER AGAIN take the edge off? Sucks. I mean, obviously some people are able to and have to do it in real life. But being an immortal demon, doomed to perpetual internal torment for eternity, and you can't even get a little toasted sometimes? Shoot the shit and just relax? Damn. No pun intended (pun sorta intended!).

Except Dean didn't get drunk from human blood and he was his own meatsuit. So......???

[rue721]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Except Dean didn't get drunk from human blood and he was his own meatsuit. So......???

I just gotta hope for his sake he wasn't doomed to an eternity of sober living!

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I just gotta hope for his sake he wasn't doomed to an eternity of sober living!

No other demons have ever been shown to get drunk like @Boopsahoy was saying...so why did it happen to Crowley.

Things that make you go ...hmmmm. 

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, catrox14 said:

No other demons have ever been shown to get drunk like @Boopsahoy was saying...so why did it happen to Crowley.

Things that make you go ...hmmmm. 

Perhaps it has to do with the cure? Crowley was becoming human with the cure and Sam had some effects of the demon blood....I don't know.

[rue721]

Just now, catrox14 said:

No other demons have ever been shown to get drunk like @Boopsahoy was saying...so why did it happen to Crowley.

Things that make you go ...hmmmm. 

Did Crowley get drunk?

I thought he just got a high out of feeling some humanity. He liked it despite himself. That's what the human blood addiction was about IMO. I don't think it was like a literal high, it was that he liked the window into his (nascent/otherwise-nonexistent) humanity.

Well OK maybe it was like a literal high, but high as in dropping acid and going on a "journey," not high as in snorting a line and being kind of trashed.

[catrox14]

Just now, rue721 said:

Well OK maybe it was like a literal high, but high as in dropping acid and going on a "journey," not high as in snorting a line and being kind of trashed.

I think it was a literal high because he kept getting hits off the poor human locked in his closet.

[MysteryGuest]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think it was a literal high because he kept getting hits off the poor human locked in his closet.

But I don't think he was necessarily drunk from doing it.  I think he was becoming addicted to the feelings it gave him.  Doing just enough to keep him in that halfway state between demon and human.  We've seen angels and demons in bars, so I have to assume they get something out of drinking alcohol.  Cas was pretty immune to it's effects though, so who knows.  

I think it's probably more along the lines of "Dean likes to drink as a human, so as a demon, let's just ramp that up times 10".  I doubt they gave much thought to whether in demon form, he would even be affected by the alcohol.

[Pondlass1]

21 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

in demon form

But Dean wasn't a fully fledged evil demon, was he? He died, sure, but he was revived as a human with a twisted soul thanks to the MOC.   It made sense that DD would seek what to him were the pleasures of life - Beer, Brawls, Barmaids and apparently... karaoke.

If it wasn't for the looming 200th episode, we might've seen DD branch out of the bars into the world and struggle with growing inner darkness vs human morality.  A real tour de force for an actor like Jensen Ackles.  But the singing episode came along and it all had to end.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Pondlass1

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

But Dean wasn't a fully fledged evil demon, was he? He died, sure, but he was revived as a human with a twisted soul thanks to the MOC.   It made sense that DD would seek what to him were the pleasures of life - Beer, Brawls, Barmaids and apparently... karaoke.

AFAIK, he was fully demon. All demons start out as humans and they became demons via torture in Hell so that there humanity is burned away. With the Mark of Cain, he took the shortcut to a twisted demon soul.  He had black eyes, could heal himself, was immortal and my head!canon is that he had other demon powers that he must not have tried to use yet because otherwise why not show it?

[Pondlass1]

20 hours ago, catrox14 said:

AFAIK, he was fully demon

You may be right, of course.  But I still think DD was a hybrid.  If he was a demon - he wasn't your average run of the mill variety.  He was independent thinking and sought out  pleasures of the human flesh.  Hell would have been way more fun with Demon Dean in charge of things.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

You may be right, of course.  But I still think DD was a hybrid.  If he was a demon - he wasn't your average run of the mill variety.  He was independent thinking and sought out  pleasures of the human flesh.  Hell would have been way more fun with Demon Dean in charge of things.

Abaddon thought independently.

I remember one  of the primary reasons demons crawled out of Hell back in the early days of the show was to seek pleasures of the human flesh and to escape their torment.

I think one reason why Demon  Dean was different as a full demon was  that he remembers the miseries of Hell and now that he has power, he could do whatever he wanted and no one could really stop him. I think he remembers what it was like to be human and the pain being human caused him

So I think he was choosing hedonism over the pain of Hell and the pain of humanity. The bloodlust controlled him, but IMO he was going to control everything else by hedonism for as long as he could.

[SueB]

From bitterness thread...

Quote

Those FEELINGS made him want a pal and IMO he figured Dean would be more fun to carouse with than Sam. Then, it dawned on Crowley that "Oh shit, I just made Dean into the most powerful entity non-god status so I better make sure I keep him in check by feeding his bloodlust".

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

I agree that Crowley was changed by the blood addiction.  And, as we saw in "Stuck In the Middle (With You)", he never really WANTED the King of Hell job in the first place.  

So, I think Crowley has gone through multiple experiences which led him to have an actual AFFECTION (not necessarily a romantic one) for Dean. He wanted to have a relationship with Sam but Sam shut that down pretty quickly.

Milestones (IMO) that got us to the point in S12 where he sacrificed himself:
- S5: he finds these two are useful because they 1) want to kill the devil, 2) have leverage ... they are wanted for their vessels, 3) came looking for him for the Colt.  So he throws his lot in with them to get rid of Lucifer because he understands Luci thinks demon are canon fodder.  Then the boys ACTUALLY succeed -- in a massively big way -- in stopping the Apocalypse. So not only were they useful, they actually succeeded.
- S6: he uses them as good hunters for Alpha's, then tries to avoid them while trying to get at Purgatory. He utters the classic line; "Am I the only game piece on the board who doesn't underestimate those denim-wrapped nightmares?!" He may insult them but he definitely respects them.
- S7: He's actually happy they want to collude with him on stopping Godstiel.  Later, he uses them to help take out Dick Roman. And it works.  Sure, THEY wanted to take out Dick Roman, but from Crowley's perspective, Crowley got what he wanted.
- S8: With the tablets in play, Crowley sees them as a threat, he tries to beat them and ends up their prisoner and a blood junkie
- S9: Seeking revenge for his imprisonment and needing to kill Abaddon, he tries to use Dean.  And THIS, IMO, is when he realizes how much he just LIKES working with them. Sure, it may be the blood addiction that starts it off, but the BEST time of his life is when he's working with the boys. Hell is boring.  Retrofitting in the knowledge of the "King of Hell" title just falling into his lap, having lost some of his desire for random torture .... he's pretty lost.  When he's jonesing for blood after Lola betrayed him, he calls DEAN.  He's pretty pathetic in trying to get Sam to like him (didn't work).  The FEELINGS are driving him nuts. - - S10: He get Dean as his demonic playmate! Woot! Parties for a couple of months.  But realizes that just partying with Demon Dean is not enough.  He needs to run Hell (he actually took pride in doing the job with some sense of responsibility).  When Demon Dean won't play, he tosses Dean back to Moose to control him.  BUT HE MISSES DEAN.  And that never actually goes away.  By the end of the year, he's adopted the fruity drink with parasol as his signature drink. He's having a talk about his mommy issues with Dean, and he's getting GOOD advice from Dean.  He's also 'cleaned up Hell's act'.  He only lets some demons come up (keeps a tight lid on who can and cannot come to the earthly plane), and while he's always been consistent about honoring his deals, he's actually trying to keep Hell respectable.  During Sam's attempt to kill him, he complains about trying to be "better" and getting no credit for it.
-S11: He admits he WANTS to kill Dean but can't.  He teams up with the boys to save the world again. Even though he's really bitter about Lucifer.
-S12: He helps to get Lucifer out of circulation (while making a fatal error in judgement and not putting him back in the cage). He nearly gets killed by Ramiel, and then saves Cas. He gets HUGGED by a civilian for helping.  And when the shit hits the fan, he throws his lot in with the boys, again. "Well, whenever there is a world ending crisis at hand, I know where to place my bets. It's on you. You big beautiful lumbering piles of flannel." And I believe Crowley was SERIOUS about closing the gates himself.  He wanted to punish all the demons for their disloyalty and he got burned by trying to get more power -- again.  He was ready for a quite demonic sabbatical. But when push came to shove, he was okay with checking out -- because he found more loyalty with TFW than he did his own kind IMO.  And, more importantly, it screwed over Lucifer.

At the end of the day, none of TFW was prepared to kill him on sight --- he was reliable in his own demonic kind of way.  And they had a kinship that even Sam (after Crowley saved Cas) couldn't completely deny.   Crowley really did just want to be LOVED (deep down).  Being treated as part of the team with TFW, at the end, was as close as he could get and it was enough.  

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

 He's pretty pathetic in trying to get Sam to like him (didn't work).  

Yeah, Sam already didn't like Crowley from the beginning after his experience with Ruby (Sam wasn't going to get burned by trusting a demon again), and it was actually kind of an amusing running gag that Sam kept trying to kill him, but Crowley pretty much cooked the Sam ever liking him goose when Crowley killed Sarah. That was likely Sam's "there's no real coming back from that" moment*... and then helping turn Dean into a demon? Crowley pretty much assured Sam would really, really kill him if given the chance for quite a while.

* Not that blackmailing Sam when Sam was soulless by holding supposedly being able to get Sam's soul back over his head as dangling bait that he was never going to be able to deliver on likely endeared Crowley to Sam, but Crowley did help in season 7, and things actually might've been different... but then taking Kevin and season 8 (Crowley was especially loathsome in season 8) and finally killing Sarah pretty much sealed the deal for Sam hating him. I mean imagine if Crowley had killed Cassie (from Route 666) in front of Dean, for example.

[catrox14]

From the Heaven and Hell thread

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I guess I'm so used to reading on here that "Dean broke after 40 years" I didn't even realize/remember that most folks were getting it wrong.  (This is not a Sam vs. Dean thing or a Dean vs. John thing, this is me being a stickler for precision thing.)  I certainly didn't remember the revelation that he actually tortured other souls for 10 years in Hell.  I wonder why the angels left him down there so long after he initially broke?  Was it that it took that long to get the proper offensive together or was there another, more nefarious, reason?

 

In my experience here, I don't think most folks have gotten that wrong. If there is an error maybe they have forgotten Dean's Righteous Man arc which is defined by the moment he broke the first seal by torturing another soul, and not necessarily specifically the 30/10 split so 40 years is all lumped together, which wasn't revealed until 4.16. On the Head of a Pin.  Now, personally I think Dean was in Hell for 100 years if we include his time from Mystery Spot, but that's just my head!canon. It's the 40 years total : 30 of being tortured and 10 of torturing others, that is textual canon. 

Maybe Zachariah,thought leaving Dean in Hell to marinate longer and torture other souls would make him more malleable to their demands that he be an angel condom. They gave him the taste of being at the mercy of the demons with his own pain and suffering, then live with an entirely different kind of suffering because he tortured others and figured he wouldn't want to be sent back to Hell, which they could do. I would be curious to know if  the angels understood that time is different for a human in Hell. Like maybe they think 10 years is a minute given they are millennia old. Maybe Zachariah just left him there because they simply didn't give Dean a thought until they needed him topside to fight Lucifer.

I've often wondered if Castiel pulled Dean out of Hell before the angels wanted him out.  Like maybe Cas and his garrison pulling Dean out of Hell screwed up their plan to make Dean more malleable.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

In my experience here, I don't think most folks have gotten that wrong. If there is an error maybe they have forgotten Dean's Righteous Man arc which is defined by the moment he broke the first seal by torturing another soul, and not necessarily specifically the 30/10 split so 40 years is all lumped together, which wasn't revealed until 4.16. On the Head of a Pin.  Now, personally I think Dean was in Hell for 100 years if we include his time from Mystery Spot, but that's just my head!canon. It's the 40 years total : 30 of being tortured and 10 of torturing others, that is textual canon. 

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand the point you're trying to make here.  Dean's time in Hell, including the 30/10 split is all part and parcel of the Righteous Man arc, as far as I'm concerned.  While the breaking of the first seal being due to Dean torturing other souls isn't revealed until 4.16, the 30/10 thing is revealed in 4.10.  And yet, mostly what I recall reading on here is 'Dean broke after 40 years in hell,' when canonically he 'broke' (that is gave up and accepted Alastair's deal) after 30 years in Hell, which is also when the first seal broke, because that's when he started torturing other souls.*  As I said in my original comment, I'm not making this a Sam vs. Dean or Dean vs. John thing nor am I in any way trying to minimize the horror of what Dean went through in Hell.  (So if you thought for some reason that you had to 'defend' Dean thus the inclusion of your 100 year headcannon - you didn't.)  This was strictly me being a stickler for accuracy.  Nothing more.  

*I was actually wondering if the more nefarious reason for leaving Dean in Hell torturing other souls for 10 years - if the first seal really broke the moment he first tortured another soul - had to do with an enjoyment aspect of Dean being the torturer.  That is, maybe the first seal didn't break with the first soul he tortured.  Maybe he had to get to the point where he kind of enjoyed inflicting the torture for the seal to break.

Although I could also see your point about Zachariah.  I'm sure the angels have no idea what time is really like for humans - and that would include time in Hell.  

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't recall ever reading that Dean broke after 40 years. The 30/10 thing is a pretty big part of the Dean Winchester mythology, I can't imagine any but the most casual of fans getting that wrong. I don't know how accurate the PTV search function is, but I tried using variations of 40, forty, forty years, 40 years, 40 years hell, and the only reference to forty years before breaking I could find are from the posts here, today.

Also, I think they made it clear that the seal broke the first time Dean picked up a blade - when a righteous nan sheds blood in Hell. There's no indication it had to wait until he started enjoying it.

Quote

Alastair: And it is written that the first seal shall be broken when a righteous man sheds blood in hell. As he breaks, so shall it break. We had to break the first seal before any others. Only way to get the dominoes to fall, right? Topple the one at the front of the line. When we win, when we bring on the apocalypse and burn this earth down, we'll owe it all to you, Dean Winchester. Believe me, son, I wouldn't lie about this. It's kind of a religious sort of thing with me.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand the point you're trying to make here.  Dean's time in Hell, including the 30/10 split is all part and parcel of the Righteous Man arc, as far as I'm concerned.  While the breaking of the first seal being due to Dean torturing other souls isn't revealed until 4.16, the 30/10 thing is revealed in 4.10.  And yet, mostly what I recall reading on here is 'Dean broke after 40 years in hell,' when canonically he 'broke' (that is gave up and accepted Alastair's deal) after 30 years in Hell, which is also when the first seal broke, because that's when he started torturing other souls.*  As I said in my original comment, I'm not making this a Sam vs. Dean or Dean vs. John thing nor am I in any way trying to minimize the horror of what Dean went through in Hell.  (So if you thought for some reason that you had to 'defend' Dean thus the inclusion of your 100 year headcannon - you didn't.)  This was strictly me being a stickler for accuracy.  Nothing more.  

*I was actually wondering if the more nefarious reason for leaving Dean in Hell torturing other souls for 10 years - if the first seal really broke the moment he first tortured another soul - had to do with an enjoyment aspect of Dean being the torturer.  That is, maybe the first seal didn't break with the first soul he tortured.  Maybe he had to get to the point where he kind of enjoyed inflicting the torture for the seal to break.

Although I could also see your point about Zachariah.  I'm sure the angels have no idea what time is really like for humans - and that would include time in Hell.  

 I didn't take any of your comments as being anything about any other character other than Dean and my response was only about Dean. I'm not sure why me just saying what my head!canon is about Dean's Hell time a defense of Dean.  That's weird.  I was just putting it out there as part of my own thought process, my own musings.

In general, I was more responding to your comment  "most folks" here were saying Dean broke in 40 year. I'm sure there are some folks who may have said that but I really don't think it's 'most' IMO. That's all I was responding to, and was proffering a possible reason why, if that is the case, they might have said he broke in 40 years versus breaking 30 years because of possibly not remembering why there was a difference, aside from simply forgetting 30 years vs 40 years. 

Dean picking up a  blade i.e. shedding blood in Hell the first time, is what broke the seal.  Alastair made that pretty clear as far as I remember without looking up the transcript.  Dean's level of enjoyment or frame of mind didn't factor into it qualifying as really being broken. Well, other than him finally being unable to endure anymore torture put upon his own mind, soul and I guess "hell body" (tm @AwesomO4000).

Edited June 28, 2017 by catrox14
grammar and clarity and commas matter.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

There was something else I thought of while watching 4.10 Heaven and Hell last night.  I decided to put it in this thread since it spans more than one ep.  I think someone on this show must like the name Amy and/or Amelia.  I noticed that Anna's parents were named Rich and Amy.  Then there was Amy Pond.  And Amelia-Angry-Lady.  (And Sam called her Amy (Ami?) for short) And Jimmy Novack's wife was Amelia.  I think there's at least one more Amy that's popped up who I can't remember right now.  That's more 'Amy's' than I've ever met in real life!  

So I looked at the 'most popular girls names' list for 2017 - just to help the writers out you know.  And, from what I could find based on the supernaturalwiki list of characters, there's never been an Abigail, Harper, Charlotte (unless you count Charlie, but they didn't call her that), Zoey, Chloe, Scarlet, Brooklyn, Grace (been a bunch of Lily's though, maybe even more than Amy's), Mila, or Penelope.  That should get them started.  

[SueB]

It's my 'head canon' that the Angels knew of the time differential but that until they actually broke into Hell, they were on 'earth time'.  

Cas said :

Quote

DEAN: Is it true? Did I break the first seal? Did I start all this?
CASTIEL: Yes. When we discovered Lilith's plan for you, we laid siege to hell and we fought our way to get to you before you—
DEAN: Jump-started the apocalypse.
CASTIEL: And we were too late.
DEAN: Why didn't you just leave me there, then?
CASTIEL: It's not blame that falls on you, Dean, it's fate. The righteous man who begins it is the only one who can finish it. You have to stop it.

To me, it implies that Zachariah or someone else notified Cas and the garrison to go get Dean. And that notification happened BEFORE Dean broke. But I think Zachariah could have left Dean to 'marinate' so as to break him emotionally. It's also possible they had a demon spy who knew Dean was getting close and that set the timing.  

From a time differential perspective: if Zach let Dean marinate a bit and then just before he broke, told Cas to go get him, it may have taken Cas and the angels a month to break the siege and even enter the part of Hell where time started to be different. Presuming getting into hell was in 'earth time' and 1 month=1 decade.  Or maybe the further down you go into Hell, the greater the time differential.  Like an inverse of a black hole -- instead of time slowing down as you approach the event horizon, time speeds up.**  It doesn't make sense from a physics perspective but it doesn't really have to.  Light and matter don't mean the same in Hell.    In that case (like a reverse blackhole -- which is NOT A REAL THING IN PHYSICS), the closer they got to Dean, the more days Cas and his contingent experienced.  They may have taken months to years to actually get him out from time, as the angels perceived it.  But they wanted Dean recovered (because of the 'only one who can finish it' clause).  And Hell didn't want to give him up. 

But why was Cas actually successful?  Cas never mentioned fighting Lilith OR Alastair when getting Dean out?  Did Lilith want the cage match between Michael and Lucifer?  If so, why send Meg to kill him later?  Wouldn't it have been better to keep Michael's vessel in the pit?  Since Lilith didn't find out until near the end that SHE was the final seal... I'm going to guess she wasn't actually in the "loop" regarding Dean as Michael's vessel.  So perhaps they didn't want to give him up but didn't personally prevent it for plotonium reasons.

**Limbo -- where Sam and Dean went to in S10 must have been on the outer edge, not in affected by the time differential.  

Edited June 28, 2017 by SueB