Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[catrox14]

 

Honestly, it makes Sam more well-adjusted IMO.

 

I think that is what Carver was maybe trying to do s8 with Sam not looking for Dean. But he didn't realize that Sam not looking for Dean is not the same as Sam wanting to go to college. 

 

 

SAM

And that... is the problem. You think you're my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in, and even when you mess up, you think what you're doing is worth it because you've convinced yourself you're doing more good than bad... But you're not.

[DEAN's blank eyes stare at him]

I mean, Kevin's dead, Crowley's in the wind. We're no closer to beating this angel thing. Please tell me, what is the upside of me being alive?

DEAN [shocked] You kidding me? You and me -- fighting the good fight together.

SAM [sighing in frustration almost leaves but then decides to explain. He come into the kitchen and sits down across from DEAN, who draws back unconsciously]

Okay. Just once, be honest with me. You didn't save me for me. You did it for you.

DEAN [totally confused] What are you talkin' about?

SAM  I was ready to die. I was ready. I should have died, but you... You didn't want to be alone, and that's what all this boils down to. You can't stand the thought of being alone.

DEAN [drawing back and standing up] All right.

SAM I'll give you this much. You are certainly willing to do the sacrificing as long as you're not the one being hurt.

DEAN

All right, you want to be honest? If the situation were reversed and I was dying, you'd do the same thing.

SAM [very softly]

No, Dean. I wouldn't.

[He looks up and meets DEAN's shocked eyes.]

Same circumstances...I wouldn't. I'm gonna get to bed.

 

 

 

Hooo boy the Purge. I think that might be worse than s8.I don't even know WTF they were trying accomplish with that speech. If they wanted it to be that Sam was still angry about the possession...fine. Have Sam say that he would not let an angel possess his brother to save his life.  It's clear. It's the violation. Painful to hear Sam say he wouldn't do that, but leave it at that.  But then they had Sam kitchen-sink Dean's entire life.  It was just so cruel.

 

The bolded parts just were so unnecessary. I can accept that Sam saying Dean did it for him because he didn't want to be alone. But the rest of it? Saying that Dean did more harm than good and wouldn't hurt himself...is just completely false. I still don't get the point of those particular lines of dialogue, other than to separate Dean from Sam...which I did kind of think they were going for with the Cain thing that, maybe Dean would be left alone in the bunker like Cain but Sam never left.  

 

Man, the wasted opportunities for really good things from the MoC...sheesh.

[MysteryGuest]

To some people, family is everything, and Dean is one of those people.  I don't think it has anything at all do with needing Sam to idolize him, he just wants him to want to be a part of their family.  And he has a hard time relating to the part of Sam that doesn't need that.  The scenes in Dark Side of the Moon convey that very well.  And that was the issue in season 8, too.  Dean couldn't imagine not looking for Sam if he'd just disappeared, nor would he ever have abandoned Kevin.  But Sam was able to do both and just move on with his life.  I'm not saying right or wrong here, but that would have been a foreign concept to Dean.

[AwesomO4000]

I guess I just don't see where Dean needing Sam to be a fanboy comes from. I'm not trying to be dense. I'm just not really getting where in the show Sam ever really fanboy'd over Dean other than in that particular memory.

 

You're right. I suppose fanboy is maybe the wrong term and not really what I was trying to get across. My mistake. I was mostly going off of Aeryn13's use of the term. I was basically arguing that if anything, both brothers actually at various times seem to want that kind of thing, not just Sam wanting it from Dean, as was proposed (and definitely not all the time imo.) But I guess Dean sometimes wants Sam to still be the little brother might be a better description? Sometimes Sam is happy to oblige and maybe even want it but sometimes not. As for Sam looking up to and/or fussing over Dean, besides that scene I guess it was mostly Sam telling - like when he explained how growing up he studied Dean and tried to be like him. I guess that and some of the flashbacks to when they were younger gave me that impression that Sam spent some of his childhood looking up to big brother Dean.

 

Oh wow. Yeah. Totally different perspective.

 

I never factored Swap Meat into things because it was such terrible episode that made no sense and didn't really have any bearing IMO on the season at all not that I remember but i"m probably forgetting something.  I thought Dean not pinging it was Sam was just shitty writing to extend the mystery.

 

Yeah, I hate that episode for putting that in my head. Because it's not just that it took so long for Dean to figure out it wasn't Sam - that could be just bad writing for the mystery as you said, but at the end the writers had to add a difference in opinion over family life.. then Dean turns on the music (which the kid inside Sam previously enjoyed, and Dean liked him enjoying it) and Sam pissily - of course -  complains about it being too loud, and so Dean says "Welcome back, Kotter" in a sad, not enthused voice as he turns it down. Really? They had to put that in there? Sam couldn't just be happy to be back and leave it at that? *grumble, grumble* To me, they were maybe trying to give some sort of message there by adding that.

 

And as I said, I don't even believe that is really what Dean wants, but I can see where the idea comes from with stuff like this episode. I also don't believe that's what Sam wants either, but I can see where the idea comes from when they give us stuff like the season 8 finale.

 

Two of Sam's happy memories caused Dean misery on many levels. I think that was the issue more than Dean losing a fanboy.  It seems like Sam did not face a consequence for running away at 12, but Dean had to deal with the Wrath of John. I mean we saw the fear on Dean's face when that memory came flooding back.

 

Oh, I agree. But I think that Dean's misery was partly from taking it personally, though, and again that was because of how he viewed family compared to Sam as SueB talked about above.

 

I can't help but think if Sam had prepared Dean for his departure to college, Dean would have been better prepared to deal with with John's wrath and emotional fallout but Dean was blindsided. I didn't see that as Dean being upset that Sam was trying to better his life but that Dean was once again left to deal with John. Dean could have left John but let's be real that wasn't going to happen. Too much emotional attachment, no other way of life, etc etc. Sam had the consequence of John alienating him because he left and Dean was stuck in the middle.

 

We actually don't know what happened in regards to Sam leaving for college. He might've kept it all secret or he might've told Dean about it, but Dean might not have wanted to believe it, so he just ignored it. We never actually got the details on how that all went down. We don't even know if Dean was even there on that night or if he was out on a hunt.

 

Dean apologized for being upset with Sam back then in s1, but then to learn that the worst night of Dean's life was the best night of Sam's was a blow.  It never occurred to me that it was ever about Dean's ego as a big brother but just a crapton of anger and resentment.

 

And this would've made more sense to me if Dean hadn't spent 30 years being tortured in hell. When Dean says that the night Sam left was one of the worst nights of his life, I then think he's being a little melodramatic, because it shouldn't even make his top 1000 at that point, top 20 at least even if we don't count hell, because by that point he'd seen Sam die more than once, seen Ellen and Jo die, seen their Dad die, seen his grandfather and grandmother die, lived through everyone dying in "Jus in Bello," went through the sheer awfulness of "On the Head of a Pin," watched Bobby get paralyzed and traumatized by his zombie wife, ... you get the idea. I thought Sam was being kind in that he was trying to divert Dean's attention from realizing what memory that was, because Dean, considering everything you've been through, you should be able to let this one go by now. No one died. Your brother went off to college to learn and have a normal life for a while, but he came back to you, so in retrospect was that really that bad a day in the long run compared to so many others you've been through?

 

I also don't believe that that was Sam's best night - it might've been one of them, maybe even in his top 25, but I would think a day with Jessica would at least be one, and I'm sure one with Dean would be in there as well - probably one of the concerts or sporting events they drove across many miles to go to.

 

So, I agree with you there was some anger and resentment, but I still don't get why Dean had that either. It wasn't Sam's fault that Dean stayed, and Sam wasn't trying to hurt Dean when he left. Sam and John just didn't get along. It seemed like it was a toxic environment, so why should Sam stay when he had a great opportunity that he'd worked hard for and he felt he had to try to take advantage of it? And as I said above - comparatively and in retrospect, not that bad a day considering.

 

I'm not quite following why Dean being upset over Sam's memories is indicative of him ignoring what was happening in the present.

Dean just suffered major trauma watching Sam be murdered in front of him and then he's murdered. He finds himself in Heaven and trying to avoid being caught by Zachariah. and find God. It's not like Dean was expecting to watch Sam guts blown to bits that day. Nor did he kill himself to get to Heaven to find God.

 

I was mainly talking about when they got back from heaven. SueB explained Dean's potential feelings a little, but still... Sam was right there, telling Dean - again - that they could do this together, and he's being sincere, but Dean doesn't care, doesn't believe him because of stuff Sam did back when he was a teenager, and because he still doesn't trust him from Ruby (but Sam doesn't know that). So he doesn't give Sam the benefit of the doubt, he doesn't tell Sam why. He just throws the amulet away, making sure Sam sees it. Message (partially anyway): your words, and your feelings now don't mean much to me. Yup, Sam left Dean back then, and yup Sam chose to listen to Ruby, and yup Sam doesn't see family exactly the same way as Dean does, but Sam believes in them now and he loves Dean now, and in my opinion that should've counted for something, but apparently according to Dean, it didn't count for much at all.

 

That's what I meant about Dean not giving weight to what was happening in the present.

 

 

Hooo boy the Purge. I think that might be worse than s8.I don't even know WTF they were trying accomplish with that speech. If they wanted it to be that Sam was still angry about the possession...fine. Have Sam say that he would not let an angel possess his brother to save his life.  It's clear. It's the violation. Painful to hear Sam say he wouldn't do that, but leave it at that.  But then they had Sam kitchen-sink Dean's entire life.  It was just so cruel.

 

The bolded parts just were so unnecessary. I can accept that Sam saying Dean did it for him because he didn't want to be alone. But the rest of it? Saying that Dean did more harm than good and wouldn't hurt himself...is just completely false. I still don't get the point of those particular lines of dialogue, other than to separate Dean from Sam...which I did kind of think they were going for with the Cain thing that, maybe Dean would be left alone in the bunker like Cain but Sam never left. 

 

Exactly, and it is lines given to Sam like that which make it hard for me not to see the writers* sabotaging Sam's character for the sake of plot or angst. Never mind that Sam usually doesn't hold grudges as I said previously, but now we have to have Sam say untrue, cruel stuff to cause Dean pain for what? Motivate Dean to go crazy, make Dean look like the poor, mistreated brother, what? That in the end, they didn't even have Sam stick to what he said concerning not doing the same thing just makes it worse. A whole season's arc to make Sam a whiny, mean to Dean hypocrite. Thanks a bunch.

 

* The sad thing is that the writers of this episode also wrote one of my favorite Sam brother moments previously, so what the hell with this?

[catrox14]

Just to aid in the discussion, I looked up the dialogue.  I think the bolded part is why I think Dean didn't know Sam was planning to go before Sam left that night.

 

DEAN: What memory is this?

SAM: (obviously lying) No idea. (He sniffs.) Alright, come on. Dean… Road. God. Remember?

DEAN: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. This? (He looks at Sam accusingly.) This is the night you ditched us for Stanford, isn’t it? This is your idea of heaven? Wow. (He laughs painfully) This was one of the worst nights of my life.

SAM: I can’t control this stuff.

Dean, who had turned away, turns back to face Sam.

DEAN: Seriously? I mean this is a happy memory for you?

SAM: I don’t know. I mean, I was on my own. I finally got away from Dad.

DEAN: (turning away) Yeah, he wasn’t the only one you got away from.

SAM: Dean, I’m sorry. I just, uh…

DEAN: I know. You didn’t, you didn’t think of it like that.

SAM: Dean!

DEAN: C’mon! Your heaven is somebody else’s Thanksgiving. Okay. It’s bailing on your family. What do you want me to say?

SAM: Man, I never got the crusts cut off my PB & J. I just don’t look at family the way you do.

DEAN: Yeah, but I’m your family.

SAM: I know…

DEAN: I mean, we’re supposed to be a team. It’s supposed to be you and me against the world, right?

SAM: Dean, it is!

DEAN: (after a pause) Is it?

 

 

The reason I think Dean didn't know Sam was going is him using the words "ditched us for Stanford". And this might just be because of how I have always taken the words "ditched" as being an unexpected departure. Like when you "ditch" school or "ditch" out on dinner. My perception is that Dean really didn't know this was Sam's plan.  Sam might have talked about going to college but I don't think it was expected that he was going to leave in the middle of the night like that.

 

I can see why that was one of the worst nights of Dean's life. Dean went through Hell but that was something that happened to him that was a result of his decisions so he's willing to accept those consequences etc. 

 

Maybe I'm projecting a bit but I relate to Dean on this point because my sister moved out of our house at 17 because of family strife and my parents horrible marriage and eventual divorce. I was 13/14. I couldn't leave. And even if I wanted to leave she didn't ask me to go. I didn't even get along with my sister and I still resented the fuck out of her abandoning me to the nightmare. I can't imagine how I would have felt if we were close. I think I would have been heartbroken on top of feeling abandoned. I understood later why she had to go but that doesn't really change the mess I was left in. And no, it's not her responsibiity to take care of all of us, I was just left behind and couldn't have left my mom behind because of her emotional needs and struggle.  At 13/14 it's hard to not see it any other way. And I grew up in middle class normal-ish life.

 

And yes Dean was a young adult when Sam left but Sam and Dean had a completely dysfunctional life and nothing was normal. Sam was Dean's best friend/brother/surrogate son and he's watching him be told by their father if he leaves he can never come back. Even if he could have intellectualize why Sam left, Dean lost his family...again. So yeah, I don't think Dean was being hyperbolic, I think he was reliving those emotions in addition to trying to process that it was one of Sam's good memories.

 

Just as an aside, I can picture Dean's reaction so clearly. I really think this might be one of the most realistic and heartbreaking things I've ever watched and one of Jensen's finest performances. I just FELT Dean's heartbreak and disappointment.

Edited April 18, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

 

You're right. I suppose fanboy is maybe the wrong term and not really what I was trying to get across. My mistake. I was mostly going off of Aeryn13's use of the term.

 

I can`t remember using that term in such a context? Never saw Sam fanboying over Dean in the show really. The flashbacks in ASS showed me anything but. I think Dean has somewhat role-coloured glasses as to that but I think the real Sam wasn`t really ever that adoring and hero-worshippy. He may have had a moment here and there but if I compare that to say how Dean used to be towards John for the longest time, it doesn`t compare.     

[trxr4kids]

 And Sam's sense of self worth is really only threatened when he feels that Dean isn't completely filling the role of being his No. 1 fan.

 I think this is part of the post AwesomO meant. Definitely not yours Aeryn.

[trxr4kids]

Brought over from my post in spoilers and spec since it doesn't really contain either:

I pointed out in the bitterness thread that the reason the mytharc is so meh for me, is because it's the same mytharc that was introduced and has been ongoing since season 4, it was also revealed that it was also the secret mytharc of seasons 1 thru 3, which is heaven vs hell. Sure they've thrown in some heaven and hell adjacent dimensions but it's still the same mytharc essentially. Dean and Sam being manipulated by powerful forces they can't comprehend or hope to actually defeat and move on. Really it's got to be the longest running mytharc ever in the history of tv unless I just don't watch enough shows. It's all about Lucifer vs Michael, no it's about Cain vs Abel, no it's about God vs Amara, my eyes can't roll hard enough.

 

I bolded the relevant bit to expand on my bitterness..

 

I started watching this show from the original pilot airdate so I think my opinion on this is probably vastly different from someone who started watching post season 6 or later, when the heaven vs hell dynamic was clearly established as being a show theme or heard about it from someone and went back and binge watched. I feel sort of bait and switched in regards to the overall theme of the show. I foolishly believed it was about two brothers on a roadtrip fighting random monsters and myths. Sure when watching live as I did I was aware that something was after Sam and knew it was evil and had evil plans however I assumed they could win and move on to the next. I couldn't and didn't know it was going to turn out to be a huge conspiracy between heaven and hell to use both brothers as pawns in their wacky schemes, going farther back than time and creation itself. As a BTVS fan I expected each big bad to be revealed and defeated only to be replaced by a new one with perhaps the same goals but different motivations, origins and sources of power. But nope, it's about heaven and hell. Sigh

 

I'll watch until the end because I became invested in the characters early on ( I blame the actors natural charisma or wizards ) but sometimes I just want to pull my hair, throw things and scream like a drama queen or tantrumming toddler.

[DittyDotDot]

I started watching this show from the original pilot airdate so I think my opinion on this is probably vastly different from someone who started watching post season 6 or later, when the heaven vs hell dynamic was clearly established as being a show theme or heard about it from someone and went back and binge watched. I feel sort of bait and switched in regards to the overall theme of the show. I foolishly believed it was about two brothers on a roadtrip fighting random monsters and myths. [...]

 

I started watching the show while S6 was airing. I started from the beginning though and didn't start watching live until the end of S6. The show itself didn't know it was going to take the turns it did so I'm not sure I feel bait-and-switched, per se, but the show I'm watching now is not the show I originally got sucked into. I was really drawn to the endless road trip notion and searching out urban legends along the way. I was really miffed about the shift in tone in S8, and the show settling down into the bunker later, but have since come to terms with it. TBH, I'm not sure the show could've maintained the endless roadtrip for 11 seasons, so maybe it was all for the best?

 

I still wish we could regain some of the charm the show once had, though.

[trxr4kids]

 TBH, I'm not sure the show could've maintained the endless roadtrip for 11 seasons, so maybe it was all for the best?

 

I still wish we could regain some of the charm the show once had, though.

Well they maintained it for 8 seasons and again jmo but the whole bunker/MOL thing doesn't seem at all popular from what I've read here. *I mean putting aside the whole plot to alienate them from their heritage and manipulate their lives, again, it could have been a great resource to give Dean and Sam the upper hand for a change* thus making the setting/tonal shift beneficial and has instead been ridiculously used as a lovely setting for drama and exposition.** Freaky motel rooms set a tone and without them I've found the show to be relentlessly angsty and stagnant in ways**.The bunker/MOL story would have been better if they had stumbled upon a defunct organization and gained access to it without it being tied to neverending manipulations. They still could have had their pretty set and unlikely resources without the Winchester bloodline nonsense.

 

* Sam primarily googles or the Supernatural equivalent thereof, everything, including the MOC. Gimme a break. Bobby and Bobby's books were possibly more useful than the MOL library and their alleged stores of knowledge. Have they actually solved anything using only MOL resources?

 

** I also found season 7 extremely angsty and grueling primarily because Baby was sidelined and it shifted the setting and/or tone of the show too much for me.

Edited April 18, 2016 by trxr4kids

[DittyDotDot]

Well they maintained it for 8 seasons and again jmo but the whole bunker/MOL thing doesn't seem at all popular from what I've read here. I mean putting aside the whole plot to alienate them from their heritage and manipulate their lives, again, it could have been a great resource to give Dean and Sam the upper hand for a change* thus making the setting/tonal shift beneficial and has instead been ridiculously used as a lovely setting for drama and exposition. Freaky motel rooms set a tone and without them I've found the show to be relentlessly angsty and stagnant in ways**.The bunker/MOL story would have been better if they had stumbled upon a defunct organization and gained access to it without it being tied to neverending manipulations. They still could have had their pretty set and unlikely resources without the Winchester bloodline nonsense.

 

OMG, I was literally just saying to a friend of mine how much I was wishing for the Lair to be destroyed by the Stynes last season. Like blown up, torched and stomped all over! Although, the Men of Letters being who they were, it would probably just regenerate as though nothing ever happened. ;)

 

Granted, it's a beautiful set, but I personally think the Lair is a pit of lazy storytelling and could do without it, myself. The funny thing is, it's not like the Lair is actually all that novel on the show. They've had other versions of a home base for the boys--the Roadhouse, Bobby's house, the Campbell base of stupidity--and none of them really work for me long term. I remember cheering when they burned down the Roadhouse and again when they did the same to Bobby's house. The Lair is worse for me because they actually live there so almost all episodes start and end there. It's boring to me at this point. At least the chats over the car had rotating scenery.

 

I miss the whacky motel rooms like nobody's business. I was really disappointed the Zanna episode didn't take advantage of the opportunity to do something zany.

Edited April 18, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

The reason I think Dean didn't know Sam was going is him using the words "ditched us for Stanford". And this might just be because of how I have always taken the words "ditched" as being an unexpected departure. Like when you "ditch" school or "ditch" out on dinner. My perception is that Dean really didn't know this was Sam's plan.  Sam might have talked about going to college but I don't think it was expected that he was going to leave in the middle of the night like that.

 

Ah okay. I never put much weight on Dean's use of the word "ditch," because he and John were often saying that Sam going to college was him somehow betraying or ditching out on the family. So I never really put much weight that ditching - in the sneaking out meaning - was what Sam had actually done. Also I pretty much got from what we learned that Sam didn't ditch so much as get thrown out by John. Ditching for me implies that no one knew else knew he left - like ditching school is sneaking out of school. Since Sam and John had a big fight and then John threw him out of the house, I just assumed that Sam had no choice. Sam might have wanted to come back, keep in touch with John, etc., but John made it clear that that wasn't going to be an option for Sam if he insisted on going to school. So Sam left.

 

Maybe I'm projecting a bit but I relate to Dean on this point because my sister moved out of our house at 17 because of family strife and my parents horrible marriage and eventual divorce. I was 13/14. I couldn't leave...

 

And I guess I look at it from the other side, because I was your sister somewhat. My mother always seemed to get along with my little sister better than me, but it got worse as I got to be a tween and teenager. She (verbally) fought with me all the time due to my mother and father's bad marriage - I was the scapegoat to vent on. My sister blamed me for the fighting, because she couldn't understand why I fought with my mom when she got along with her just fine. I'd taken care of my sister a lot while we were kids, so my sister and I used to be very close growing up before the fighting started, afterwards not so much. When I got the chance to go to college at 17, I took it, because I was already a somewhat messed up kid and home life (and high school life) weren't helping. I hoped my sister would be okay, because she and my mother got along well, but I knew there was a chance that wouldn't last. Was I a crap sister for leaving? Probably, but I wanted a chance to make it, and I didn't think that I could if I stayed at home. Six or 7 years of that was enough for me. I was done. Does my sister resent me for doing it? Hell, yeah. She of course thinks it was worse after I left. It was likely the same, she just didn't see it when it was happening to me and thought it was my fault.

 

We get along very well now and love each other, but I'm sure she has resentment there still. There's nothing I can do about that, though.* And sadly, I sometimes see her turning into my mother. (One of the reasons I didn't have children is so I wouldn't.) So in that respect, I guess I see Sam's side in this thing. Sometimes for your own sanity, you gotta go.

 

* Oh, there is one thing. I took my mother in, so my sister doesn't have to deal with that and raising teenagers also, so for that part she is grateful to me.

 

I can see why that was one of the worst nights of Dean's life. Dean went through Hell but that was something that happened to him that was a result of his decisions so he's willing to accept those consequences etc.

 

 

I guess I can see that, but I still think those other things I mentioned should've been a whole lot worse. Guess it's a matter of perspective.

 

Just as an aside, I can picture Dean's reaction so clearly. I really think this might be one of the most realistic and heartbreaking things I've ever watched and one of Jensen's finest performances. I just FELT Dean's heartbreak and disappointment.

 

And I felt Sam's heartbreak and disappointment as Dean threw away that amulet - and what it symbolized - in front of him like it was a piece of trash do to a couple of mistakes. Despite Dean leaving Sam alone and devastated by making the deal, Sam still took that amulet and what it symbolized and kept it with him. I felt bad for Sam that it was now being discarded. In my imaginings, I wasn't sure if I wanted Sam to have picked it up out of the trash and secretly kept it or to have left it and honored Dean's choice to discard it and, symbolically, their relationship.

 

I can`t remember using that term in such a context? Never saw Sam fanboying over Dean in the show really. The flashbacks in ASS showed me anything but. I think Dean has somewhat role-coloured glasses as to that but I think the real Sam wasn`t really ever that adoring and hero-worshippy. He may have had a moment here and there but if I compare that to say how Dean used to be towards John for the longest time, it doesn`t compare.     

 

You didn't, so I sincerely apologize. I was confusing your post (where you were talking about Sam feeling like chosen one being okay in the season 5 final) with Myrelle's post that trxr4kids quoted above.

 

That being said, I have seen Sam fanboying over Dean some, usually it's tell though - like Sam's story about watching Dean and trying to be just like his big brother. (Sam got pretty choked up describing that, so it seemed very sincere to me). I also don't hold the flashbacks from "Afterschool Special" against Sam either. That's typical snotty 13-year old stuff, and I'm pretty sure Dean was ditching Sam often to chase after girls at this point if "Plucky Pennywhistle's.." and Dean's own words in the episode are any indication. (No way was Dean taking Sam with him on that midnight date he described - thank goodness, because scarred for life would be happening for sure.) Considering Sam likely always felt like he was in Dean's shadow when it came to hunting and John, he could've said a whole lot worse and I wouldn't have been surprised. Remember Dean was the one who knew how to get the "extra cookie," and it likely frustrated Sam that he could never quite compete or fit in.

 

I also don't see an over-abundance of Dean fanboying over Sam though either, so.. *shrug*. Dean fanboying over John though - oh yeah, that was there for sure. It made it all the more heartbreaking when Dean found out things there weren't exactly what he thought.

 

Yeah, yeah I know I should've left it at the apology. What can I say.? I'm a pain in the ass.

[trxr4kids]

 Like blown up, torched and stomped all over! Although, the Men of Letters being who they were, it would probably just regenerate as though nothing ever happened. ;)

 

Granted, it's a beautiful set, but I personally think the Lair is a pit of lazy storytelling and could do without it, myself.

 You've solved the mystery, the Hidden Lair is located in The Empty where the writers get their story ideas and powered by The Void where the desperate pleas of fans are never heard.

[MysteryGuest]

I actually love the bunker, but wish they'd done more with it and the Men of Letters.  I enjoyed finding out about the MOL, and how that tied back to family members, etc., but I think they can have a home base, and still spend plenty of time in hotel rooms.  That way there's variety.  It did seem like every episode this season opened in the bunker kitchen, and that was a bit odd.  I suppose they're sticking close to home for the most part while they look for Cas and Amara, but it just seemed a bit redundant.  I mean at least pick a different room in the bunker!

[catrox14]

It's funny because I started watching the show live in s9. I watched all 8 seasons before that via a couple of binge watches but I have an attachment to the Lair. I love when the boys go on the road but I do think there is some sense to them having a batcave now. It keeps them off the radar as much as they used to be. Dean is a murderer so I'm always expecting that other shoe to drop and at least the cops don't seem to know where the LoL is. 

 

I was nearly apoplectic when it looked like the Stynes were going to set fire to the place. I would truly cry if they destroyed the lair.  There is so much history and lore and the CARS THE CARS! NOOOO

 

And Baby was probably in the garage. She would have been blown up too! NOOOO. No blowing up the LAIR!  

[catrox14]

 

hen I got the chance to go to college at 17, I took it, because I was already a somewhat messed up kid and home life (and high school life) weren't helping. I hoped my sister would be okay, because she and my mother got along well, but I knew there was a chance that wouldn't last. Was I a crap sister for leaving? Probably, but I wanted a chance to make it, and I didn't think that I could if I stayed at home. Six or 7 years of that was enough for me. I was done. Does my sister resent me for doing it? Hell, yeah. She of course thinks it was worse after I left. It was likely the same, she just didn't see it when it was happening to me and thought it was my fault.

 

That's tough. I don't think you were a crap sister for leaving. I don't think my sister was a crap sister for leaving. She was a crap sister long before that LOL and you don't sound like a crap sister at all! 

 

You did care about your siblings and tried to help them. That was not the case for with me. On one hand I was happy she left because it stopped her from bullying me LOL. But I was still left with an addicted father, who abused my mom and I was trying to get through high school in a sort of normal way and no one to help me sort through that. I could at least go to Alateen for all the good it did LOL. She and I are just diametrically opposite in pretty much all ways except looks LOL

 

It's kind of interesting to me because it seems like you are the Dean in your family dynamic with looking out for your younger siblings but like Sam that you were like, I gotta find something better.

 

I get Sam's perspective too, because eventually I went to college once my mom divorced my dad but I moved an hour away. When I moved to California I think I broke her heart :(. But she had her boyfriend and seemed to be doing pretty good, so I didn't feel as bad about leaving.

[MysteryGuest]

Yes, I was freaking out when they were getting ready to set fire to that stack of books...not to mention Dean's pictures!!  I thought for sure they were going to destroy it just to take away one more thing from Sam and Dean, but thankfully, they didn't go there.

[SueB]

Apparently it's an UO bu f*cking love the Bunker and the Men of Letters.  I love that they have a HOME.  I love that they've used their comfortableness in the MOL as an indication of the comfortableness in their relationship (i.e. sleeping on top of the covers with jeans on versus sweats and dead guy robe).  I love the concept of the MoL and hope they troll that for more stories in the future.

 

 

Ah okay. I never put much weight on Dean's use of the word "ditch," because he and John were often saying that Sam going to college was him somehow betraying or ditching out on the family. So I never really put much weight that ditching - in the sneaking out meaning - was what Sam had actually done. Also I pretty much got from what we learned that Sam didn't ditch so much as get thrown out by John. Ditching for me implies that no one knew else knew he left - like ditching school is sneaking out of school. Since Sam and John had a big fight and then John threw him out of the house, I just assumed that Sam had no choice. Sam might have wanted to come back, keep in touch with John, etc., but John made it clear that that wasn't going to be an option for Sam if he insisted on going to school. So Sam left.

 

I don't think Sam literally "ditched" them in terms of ran out without knowing. But I also think Sam had a choice.  Based on that one fight in "Dead Man's Blood", I'd say BOTH Sam and John got irrational pretty quickly.  As a parent, I put more blame on John because I personally don't believe you make those kind of threats to your children. OTOH, if Sam was mature enough to be out on his own, then he probably COULD have been mature enough not to get into a screaming match with John over his future.  So, Sam's choice was to insist in that moment of having his way.  Maybe it was the last possible moment for him to go to Stanford and he didn't really have a choice on timing.  But if that was the case, did he handle it well? Did he thrown gasoline on fire?  Again, based on what I saw in Dean Man's Blood, Sam's focus was on getting away and being free of John.  And just prior to the DMB fight, Dean tried to get Sam to hold off and trust John for a bit and Sam forced a confrontation. And it didn't even occur to him how it would make Dean feel in that moment.  So that makes me feel that when it came time to announce he was going to college, he probably didn't factor Dean's feelings into the equation at all.  That's what I think Dean was pointing out in that scene.  And honestly, given Sam being a rebellious teenage boy and John being an ass... Dean's feelings on this probably didn't matter to Sam. That doesn't make Sam bad, it just makes him somewhat irrational when it came to his Dad.

 

But Dean saw it differently.  Doesn't make Dean stupid or wrong either.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that just because family members love each other doesn't mean it's going to be perfectly equitable or always positive.  Every time Dean gets a dose of that, it hurts.  That's just life.  Dean can either learn to accept it as is or continue to let that wound fester. 

 

In S10, Dean saw Sam go to extremes to save him.  He saw the negative side of being the object of that much commitment from his brother.  WE saw Sam go Robo-Sam in S3, Dean never did. We knew Sam had it in him.  And Dean even tried to get Sam to stop trying. And it didn't work.  I think one of the reasons Dean insists that the Darkness is on BOTH of them is not just because he took on the Mark and failed to kill Sam.  I think he realizes that Sam "pulled a Dean Winchester" and this has helped him to agree that they've needed to put more emphasis on the "saving people" thing. And they have.  Dean has been less cautious with Sam's actions all year with two notable exceptions:  1) taking on Lucifer, and 2) when faced with his actual death (in his mind).  In the first, I think Dean getting protective was warranted. This was far from your normal "hunter risk."  In the second, I think Dean just accepts it's not "in him" to let Sam die.  But Dean FIRST saved the people.  He didn't let others die for Sam.  He only (as far as Dean knew) risked his own life to save Sam.    So while many saw Red Meat as a massive backslide for Dean, I did not.  I think Dean accepted the new "line" drawn - save people before each other  - but still feels he has a right to save Sam before himself.  I think Dean can live with Sam going to extremes to save him (Dean) but also expects Sam to put other people before Dean. That's part one of their new "deal".  Part two being the "respect each other's choices".  I think they agreed that's their policy and then both promptly agreed that Cas's situation either did not apply or they were jointly going to break policy to save his feathery behind.  At least their talking. 

 

In sum... on this who did what to whom debate... I think no matter HOW they got there, there is more parity in the relationship now and more mutual respect for how each other feels and is going to act.

And BTW, Jared's interpretation was that Sam KNEW Dean was lying at the end of Red Meat but didn't feel he needed to get an answer. (Per Jared's direct responding to my Meet and Greet question at DCCon).  Since there was no dialog that SAID that within the show, people can interpret factor in that answer or ignore it as they want. But I'd say, within canon that we've seen in an episode, that Sam twigging to the impact Amara had on Dean indicates he is more willing to let Dean have his comfortable obfuscation rather than forcing him to admit he "pulled a Dean Winchester." And Sam is the one who coined the phrase "pulled a Dean Winchester" and thus knows exactly how Dean's instincts run. So if Dean isn't talking, then of course he did something reckless, brave, and desperate.  If he hadn't, he would have told Sam straight out rather than joking.  No matter what it was, if it made a difference to the future, it would appear that Sam is trusting that Dean would come clean.  If it didn't, then no need to open a vein if Dean doesn't want to talk about it.  

[AwesomO4000]

I'm attached to the lair as well, for the reasons you mentioned, catrox. It means they have a more probable explanation for not being on the radar, sometimes without them even knowing - as when they were being tracked by Henriksen and didn't even know it. This way they leave less hotel credit card receipts and such behind. Nowadays with all of the technology, I would think that the credit card fraud they perpetrate would be getting more difficult to do as well.

 

Besides I kind of like seeing what they do with their rooms and how that going to progress. Also knowing that they don't have to worry about the random hunter or person with a grudge - a la Cole - tracking them down and shooting them (all this talk of "Dark Side of the Moon" reminded me of how distressing it was that other hunters could find them and just blow them away.) Especially now that they can't come back theoretically.

 

But yeah, it's kind of a bummer about losing the random hotel room sets - though that couldn't have been cheap - but it's too bad they don't often do other unusual set locations anymore. I think the guys need to have a wacky case sort of like the one where they went to Lilydale, but with some weird urban legend.

 

That's tough. I don't think you were a crap sister for leaving. I don't think my sister was a crap sister for leaving. She was a crap sister long before that LOL and you don't sound like a crap sister at all! 

 

You did care about your siblings and tried to help them. That was not the case for with me. On one hand I was happy she left because it stopped her from bullying me LOL. But I was still left with an addicted father, who abused my mom and I was trying to get through high school in a sort of normal way and no one to help me sort through that. I could at least go to Alateen for all the good it did LOL. She and I are just diametrically opposite in pretty much all ways except looks LOL

 

That's awful, catrox. I'm glad you had Alateen. Fortunately I didn't have to worry about anyone in my family being addicted - unless fibbing counts. It took me a while to figure out my mom is a true Winchester (a lying liar who lies) if it can get her out of something or even just because. Unfortunately now that I do know, it sometimes drives me crazy, heh. Ignorance was bliss in that case. I'm also sorry to hear your sister bullied you, as that would be rough. It was bad enough when kids in school did it to me. I can't imagine it being my own family member. Well I take that back - I do know. Mum was John Winchester creative with the facial expressions and yelling when she got pissed off. Fortunately that kind of screaming didn't happen too often, and I was old enough to shrug it off by then. (And "you're just like your father!" was less of an insult to me than she thought it was. How very season 4 Sam of me. Hee.) My sister doing it would've really hurt though, so yeah, that's rough.

 

It's kind of interesting to me because it seems like you are the Dean in your family dynamic with looking out for your younger siblings but like Sam that you were like, I gotta find something better.

 

It really is like that. Even more similarly, it's just my sister and me. But you could substitute my mom being asleep or distracted for John being gone, and it wold be similar. I also got in trouble if my sister did bad stuff, because I was the oldest and should know better. And my sister was very inquisitive and got into everything (she made Sam look downright obedient). She especially was fascinated with running out in the street. She probably had nightmares for years from me sitting on her (that's the only way I could keep her from going out into the street and getting run over, because she was strong! Hee.) It's probably why I get both brothers' perspectives. I've played both roles in the family dynamic. Fortunately though, I didn't get the "if you leave, don't come back" part. That would've been tough.
 

I get Sam's perspective too, because eventually I went to college once my mom divorced my dad but I moved an hour away. When I moved to California I think I broke her heart :(. But she had her boyfriend and seemed to be doing pretty good, so I didn't feel as bad about leaving.

 

That's good. It sounds like it was way past time for you to do something for you, so I'm glad you did it. And you shouldn't feel guilty about it at all.
 

Maybe it was the last possible moment for him to go to Stanford and he didn't really have a choice on timing.

 

I can't say for sure, but a lot of times, scholarships do have a strict time limit. If someone doesn't take it, it gets passed on to the next applicant, because it has to be used that year or that time. They also have other restrictions in terms of grades later on, so I could see why Sam's college experience was more of the studying and less of the partying variety. If his grades went down, especially for such a comprehensive scholarship, he would likely take a chance of losing it.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I don't think Sam literally "ditched" them in terms of ran out without knowing. But I also think Sam had a choice.  Based on that one fight in "Dead Man's Blood", I'd say BOTH Sam and John got irrational pretty quickly.  As a parent, I put more blame on John because I personally don't believe you make those kind of threats to your children. OTOH, if Sam was mature enough to be out on his own, then he probably COULD have been mature enough not to get into a screaming match with John over his future. 

Um..no.  Just No.  I think you actually touched on it, but just in case...Sam was what?  17 or 18 then?  John was how old?  40something to 50something?  No matter how "mature" a 17 or 18 year old seems, the onus for the falling out lies entirely on John.  Period. So maybe Sam wasn't thinking about Dean's feelings at that moment.  But then again, neither was their dad by 'banishing' Sam, so if Dean wants to blame anyone, he can blame him (John). 

[catrox14]

nothing to see here

Edited April 19, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

I think he's right to blame both. Sam had agency, he made his choice based on his priorities. I agree, John is the adult and holds the most culpability for getting them to this moment but what happened on that road that night is not only on John. And a few years later when fighting again, Sam demonstrated the same irrational behavior despite having time, distance, and presumably personal development.

[auntvi]

And a few years later when fighting again, Sam demonstrated the same irrational behavior despite having time, distance, and presumably personal development.

Hell, I went home and had similar arguments with my mother when I was in my 30s.  I just couldn't help myself, the same buttons were being pushed. Now when I visit my adult daughter, even though we're really enjoying each other's company, we'll have at least one mini blowup. Patterns between parents and children get set early, and it's really hard to break it. So I wouldn't expect an early 20s Sam to demonstrate completely rational behavior with his father.

Edited April 19, 2016 by auntvi

[AwesomO4000]

I think he's right to blame both. Sam had agency, he made his choice based on his priorities. I agree, John is the adult and holds the most culpability for getting them to this moment but what happened on that road that night is not only on John. And a few years later when fighting again, Sam demonstrated the same irrational behavior despite having time, distance, and presumably personal development.

 

...Again, based on what I saw in Dean Man's Blood, Sam's focus was on getting away and being free of John.  And just prior to the DMB fight, Dean tried to get Sam to hold off and trust John for a bit and Sam forced a confrontation. And it didn't even occur to him how it would make Dean feel in that moment...

 

I'm not as inclined to blame Sam for his same behavior when fighting with John later as being completely "irrational" that time (though auntvi has a great point above also! So some irrational behavior is also understandable.) And maybe you're right above in that Sam wasn't thinking of how Dean would feel about them arguing in the "Dead Man's Blood" fight, but I'm not going to say that Sam wasn't thinking of Dean.

 

In my opinion, Dean was then still a little too willing to forgive John for things in order to avoid a confrontation. But Sam wasn't as willing to forgive and forget John's dismissal of himself or of Dean when it came to achieving his (John's) goal. Sam hadn't forgotten that John didn't bother to show up when Dean was dying - as evidenced by Sam bringing it up in "In My Time of Dying," which show time-wise wasn't that far away. And also (in my opinion,) Sam wasn't too out of line to question John's plan, because apparently it was a stupid, reckless plan, considering what happened. That John would be stupid enough to go in without protection to keep himself from being possessed was more than reckless and put all of their lives in danger.

 

No matter though, because according to John, what happened wasn't his own fault for his stupid plan and getting himself possessed, but Sam's fault for not shooting his own father dead. With logic like that, I can see why Sam likely couldn't keep his mouth shut and not fight with John, because really? I can just imagine the other stupid, unfair, and dismissive things John probably tried to blame on Sam, and likely even more often, Dean when they were growing up. We saw the evidence in "Something Wicked" clearly enough when John blamed a still child Dean for what happened to Sam with the witch. (No John that was your fault for leaving Sam and Dean alone and dangling like bait.) So by the time Sam wanted to go to college I can imagine he had just about enough of John's "logic" to the point it didn't take much to set either of them off. Dean might have been willing to go along with John's rules and lack of sharing information for the "greater (supposedly) good," but I'm not going to entirely fault Sam for being sick of them or wondering exactly how "safe" that left him and Dean (Sam made that point of safety in the pilot), and finally not being willing to even try anymore to keep up appearances. Dean was still on the "Dad's rules are to keep us safe" train in season 1, so likely teen Sam wasn't going to get Dean to see that John might not have always had their best interest at heart - whether intentional or not - when Sam was going to go to college. By that time, I can imagine Sam might have pretty much been "Fuck this. Nothing I say is going to make a difference anyway here."

 

And I can imagine that John Winchester must have been one frustrating human being. Dean must've been pretty much a saint.

 

Hell, I went home and had similar arguments with my mother when I was in my 30s.  I just couldn't help myself, the same buttons were being pushed. Now when I visit my adult daughter, even though we're really enjoying each other's company, we'll have at least one mini blowup. Patterns between parents and children get set early, and it's really hard to break it. So I wouldn't expect an early 20s Sam to demonstrate completely rational behavior with his father.

 

Oh, so much this. My mom still knows just how to push my buttons, and I'm older than I'd like to admit. I don't very often fall for it anymore - and often hormones are to blame when I do - but the buttons, they do get pushed.

[SueB]

I actually DON'T blame Sam for getting irrational.  Rare is the person who never gets irrational.  But while letting loose is emotionally satisfying, it's not very effective.  I think Sam understood this intellectually, but I don't think he could apply that to John while he was still alive.  Fathers & sons.  Too complicated.  But while Sam got the emotional satisfaction of ripping John a new one and leaving for college, I also think it hurt Dean (intended or not). 

 

And as stated above, even if you KNOW better, you still let yourself fall for it.  And that's the part I hold Sam responsible for.  For getting into an emotional knock-down-drag-out fight with John as his parting shot?  Yeah, I think Sam owns a piece of it. 

[AwesomO4000]

That's fair.

[rue721]

Apparently it's an UO bu f*cking love the Bunker and the Men of Letters.  I love that they have a HOME.  I love that they've used their comfortableness in the MOL as an indication of the comfortableness in their relationship (i.e. sleeping on top of the covers with jeans on versus sweats and dead guy robe). 

 

[...]

 

Again, based on what I saw in Dean Man's Blood, Sam's focus was on getting away and being free of John.  And just prior to the DMB fight, Dean tried to get Sam to hold off and trust John for a bit and Sam forced a confrontation. And it didn't even occur to him how it would make Dean feel in that moment.  So that makes me feel that when it came time to announce he was going to college, he probably didn't factor Dean's feelings into the equation at all.  That's what I think Dean was pointing out in that scene.  And honestly, given Sam being a rebellious teenage boy and John being an ass... Dean's feelings on this probably didn't matter to Sam. That doesn't make Sam bad, it just makes him somewhat irrational when it came to his Dad.

 

I hate the Lair. It's off-putting to me that they live in a literal bunker. Who except crazy paranoid people live in bunkers? It also just sounds like a depressing place to stay. Dean's room especially annoys me, because what kind of lunatic lives in a windowless room decorated by weaponry all over the walls? When I first saw it, I was like, "good luck bringing a woman home to THAT room," and I stick by that assessment.

 

I also just don't get the point of introducing a bunker full of stuff and then never having the guys use the stuff for anything. They haven't even been selling anything on craigslist or using it to bait or pay off demons or ANYTHING.

 

Literally the only things I like about the bunker are 1. Dean's dead man's robe 2. that Dean cooked up their dad's "special chili" there. I love the idea of that chili.

 

Something about men living out of motel rooms even having a family chili recipe cracks me up. I mean, what kind of jerk cooks chili in a motel room? I hope that John didn't use a lot of beans, because there's only ever that one little bathroom, and often motel toilets don't have the strongest flush. But I guess I should just be happy that their special family recipe that they liked to cook up in motel rooms wasn't for cabbage or fish.

 

In reality, I think their (nomadic) lifestyle would have been a better mesh with some doctored-up ramen as comfort food, though. Js.

 

ANYWAY. I think the disconnect between Sam and Dean when it comes to Sam leaving for college is that all Sam was seeing (at the time) was what he was running *toward* -- college, civilian life, etc -- and Dean was seeing (at the time) only what Sam was running away from -- him, the family, hunting, etc.

 

When I first saw Dark Side of the Moon, I remember getting frustrated with Dean. I was feeling like, "it's not all about you, dude!" But honestly, if I found out that my bff's "happiest day" was the day that she left me behind and stopped talking to me for years, I would be pretty hurt. And she and I don't have anywhere NEAR Winchester-levels of baggage :P

 

So maybe Sam wasn't thinking about Dean's feelings at that moment.  But then again, neither was their dad by 'banishing' Sam, so if Dean wants to blame anyone, he can blame him (John). 

 

John was definitely the one in the wrong, imo. As the parent, John was the one with the most power in that situation, so it was up to him to be the bigger person. Instead of doing that, though, he apparently threw a temper tantrum.

 

But I don't think it's fair to expect Dean to blame John for it (even though John completely deserves that blame). Dean's perception of John has changed since then, but at the time that that fight took place (and up through a lot of the first season), Dean was practically a professional John-apologist. I mean, John abandoned him (on his deathbed at one point!) during that first season and he didn't even blame John much for THAT. So I can't see him putting blame on John for indirectly causing Sam to leave the family.

 

Also, I said this in the DSotM episode thread (a million years ago. Or possible two years ago?) but I think it's notable that just like Sam's happy memories are of him being free from his family, Dean's happy memories are of times when he's free of John. IIrc, in all of Dean's memories, John is absent and *that's an integral part of the memory.* So I think maybe it's more complicated than Dean just being upset that Sam's memories don't include him, seeing as he also apparently treasures memories that specifically don't include someone he always loved a lot, too.

 

Oh, so much this. My mom still knows just how to push my buttons, and I'm older than I'd like to admit. I don't very often fall for it anymore - and often hormones are to blame when I do - but the buttons, they do get pushed.

 

Of course she knows how to push them -- she CREATED a lot of those buttons herself.

[MysteryGuest]

I hate the Lair. It's off-putting to me that they live in a literal bunker. Who except crazy paranoid people live in bunkers? It also just sounds like a depressing place to stay. Dean's room especially annoys me, because what kind of lunatic lives in a windowless room decorated by weaponry all over the walls? When I first saw it, I was like, "good luck bringing a woman home to THAT room," and I stick by that assessment.

 

I wouldn't particularly want to live in the bunker...not nearly enough natural light for me.  But if I were Sam and Dean, I'd be absolutely thrilled to have a safe haven where all the monsters, angels and demons that want to kill me couldn't find me.  Aesthetics are the least of their concerns.  Not to mention the treasure trove of knowledge that's there.  Even though the show has barely scratched the surface of the secrets it holds, you just know that Sam and Dean have explored every inch of it.  And while I may not want to live there, I'd totally love to check it out.  It has a dungeon!  And the old cars in the garage are totally cool.  Not to mention the library.  If only it were real!

[trxr4kids]

  But if I were Sam and Dean, I'd be absolutely thrilled to have a safe haven where all the monsters, angels and demons that want to kill me couldn't find me.  Aesthetics are the least of their concerns.  Not to mention the treasure trove of knowledge that's there.  Even though the show has barely scratched the surface of the secrets it holds, you just know that Sam and Dean have explored every inch of it. 

This pretty much sums up two of the reasons I dislike the bunker. One: It's not safe, the Stynes got in. Two: The treasure trove of knowledge it supposedly contains has been even less useful or utilized than Bobby was as a resource. It's just a nice set, a pointless one at that.

[catrox14]

Ihate the Lair. It's off-putting to me that they live in a literal bunker. Who except crazy paranoid people live in

bunkers? It also just sounds like a depressing place to stay. Dean's room especially annoys me, because what kind of lunatic lives in a windowless room decorated by weaponry all over the walls? When I first saw it, I was like, "good luck bringing a woman home to THAT room," and I stick by that assessment.

 

I also just don't get the point of introducing a bunker full of stuff and then never having the guys use the stuff for  anything.

 

 

 

 

This pretty much sums up two of the reasons I dislike the bunker. One: It's not safe, the Stynes got in. Two: The treasure trove of knowledge it supposedly contains has been even less useful or utilized than Bobby was as a resource. It's just a nice set, a pointless one at that.

 

They actually do use the library all the time for research. They found the Key to Oz in the library. They have the garage for Baby to sleep in. They used the RISK table for plotting the Vessel mission and Sam used the books to help figure out how to counteract the sigil. Charlie figured out how to use the old computer for their current needs. 

 

I had the complaint about why anyone could just get in the bunker but then I was rewatching As Time Goes By and one of the MoL said that it was warded against every EVIL in the world which is not necessarily every supernatural or human entity.  I don't think they were necessarily warded against angels because angels were not necessarily EVIL.

 

I can fanwank:

--Gadreel got in because he had been in Sam's head and knew how.

 

--Cas gets in because well it's Cas and it's not warded against him

 

--Crowley got in because Sam summoned him

 

--The Stynes got in because

     1) the Winchesters took an overdose of Plotonium Idiotic provided by Buck-Lemming with Dean apparently not blindfolding Armless!Styne when he took him back to the bunker

     2) Sam and Dean not trussing him up like a turkey, so he could escape and kill Charlie and come back with Baby!Styne to destroy the Bunker.

     3)  They were human and had explosives but it's mostly 1 & 2...from the minds of Buck-Lemming.

Edited April 19, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

The Stynes getting into the bunker was definitely a writing blunder.  I can't even remember now just how they would have known how to find it, let alone how to get in.  Just another reason why I wonder if the writers actually watch the show.  Another example was Sam's imaginary friend, Sully.  I'm assuming he keyed in on Sam somehow, but you would think that connection would have been blocked by all of the warding on the bunker.  Again, bad writing.

 

But putting those mistakes aside, we are meant to believe that the bunker is safe, so I'm going with that.  And while the show may not give us enough of a glimpse into just how the boys use the information housed in the bunker, my head canon says they use it all the time.  I have to let some of this stuff slide, or I wouldn't be able to enjoy the show at all.  Sometimes that's easier said than done.

[SueB]

The Styne guy ran away from the bunker so he knew where it was at.

[DittyDotDot]

They actually do use the library all the time for research. They found the Key to Oz in the library. They have the garage for Baby to sleep in. They used the RISK table for plotting the Vessel mission and Sam used the books to help figure out how to counteract the sigil. Charlie figured out how to use the old computer for their current needs.

 

IMO, they haven't actually used the bunker well on the show. On occasion they find some sort of dues ex machina in the bunker, but usually ignore it or retcon it later...the fact that it's supposed to be warded against everything except when it's not is a perfect example. The RISK table was supposed to help them plot angel activity and why they needed Charlie to access the old computer to get it working, but as far as I recall, they haven't used the computer or the table since. If they actually explored the bunker and used it to help tell story, I could get behind it's existence. But they don't, so I can't.

 

But, my main irritation with it is I don't see why it's necessary.  To me, nothing in that bunker has been new or necessary for them, but just different versions of things they already had. The books are great, but they never needed that library before. They lived in the bunker for like six months before they found the garage for Baby, so... .

 

I just think the show wants it's cake and to eat it too. They want to have this standing set so they don't have to build one every week, but they want to stay a road show as well. It goes back to me thinking TPTB don't have a clear vision for the show and just use any idea that comes to the table whether or not it fits the show.

 

It's funny we're having this conversation now because I was watching All Hell Breaks Loose yesterday and Kripke's comments on the commentary on why they burned down the roadhouse are pretty much why I would love the bunker to get destroyed. It just doesn't really fit into the show organically. At least they don't have a bunch of hunters sitting around cleaning their guns in the background, though. ;)

[Diane]

So my son and I have been re watching together, and we had been watching 1 to 2 eps a night.  I haven't really been watching anything else between the re-watch and working both jobs.  Well we have gotten through to Season 9 episode 3, haven't watched in 3 days.  He has started re-watching Burn Notice and I haven't complained.  My heart is just not in season 9, ugh.

[rue721]

I guess the bunker also just doesn't appeal to me as their "home," because I thought Baby was their home. The show even did that gigantic and corny montage in the S5 finale about it. I didn't like the montage, but the sentiment made sense imo.

 

So my son and I have been re watching together, and we had been watching 1 to 2 eps a night.  I haven't really been watching anything else between the re-watch and working both jobs.  Well we have gotten through to Season 9 episode 3, haven't watched in 3 days.  He has started re-watching Burn Notice and I haven't complained.  My heart is just not in season 9, ugh.

 

Yeah, S9 is tough. Not as bad as S8, though. And S10 is better than S9, and S11 is significantly better than that (imo).

 

Still, after watching a couple hundred episodes straight through, you and your son might just need a break from SPN!

[catrox14]

 

Another example was Sam's imaginary friend, Sully.  I'm assuming he keyed in on Sam somehow, but you would think that connection would have been blocked by all of the warding on the bunker.  Again, bad writing.

 

I can fanwank Sully got in because he wasn't evil so there was no warding against him.

 

 

IMO, they haven't actually used the bunker well on the show. On occasion they find some sort of dues ex machina in the bunker, but usually ignore it or retcon it later...the fact that it's supposed to be warded against everything except when it's not is a perfect example.

 

That's what I thought at first but like I mentioned above but here is the dialogue that suggests it's only warded against evil not necessarily every thing ever.

 

 

It is warded against any evil ever created. It is the supernatural mother lode. If knowledge is power, then this is the most powerful place on Earth.

– Larry Ganem, 8.12 As Time Goes B

Edited April 19, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

Well, again, to each his own.  I can understand why some might not like the bunker, but I was thrilled when they discovered it.  And I like the idea of the boys having a home base.  They still hit the road all the time, so the funky hotel rooms aren't completely gone.  I am a sentimental sap though, and I like that they actually have a home to call their own, such as it is.  Their lives suck in every other way, I don't need or want them to lose what little they have, namely Baby and the bunker.

 

I also hated when the Roadhouse and Bobby's house burned down, for the record.

Edited April 19, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

I think the value to the bunker is in the new knowledge they have.  It's a payload of info but not all the info ever, so they still have to some sleuthing outside the bunker. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by catrox14

[Diane]

I guess the bunker also just doesn't appeal to me as their "home," because I thought Baby was their home. The show even did that gigantic and corny montage in the S5 finale about it. I didn't like the montage, but the sentiment made sense imo.

 

 

Yeah, S9 is tough. Not as bad as S8, though. And S10 is better than S9, and S11 is significantly better than that (imo).

 

Still, after watching a couple hundred episodes straight through, you and your son might just need a break from SPN!

So true although, not my first re-watch. (so yes maybe too much Supernatural)  I started watching in Feb of Season 9 then watched the rest of season 9 in real time it didn't seem as bad then, now though, just a trial to get through.  Season 10 was a little better and I have really enjoyed season 11. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by Diane

[Aeryn13]

I don`t feel one way or the other about the bunker. The entire MOL stuff is a convenient deus ex machina or exposition device when need be. They started out with John`s journal, then Bobby became their life-in exposition, then for a very short while they made some noise about the infamous Campbell library. Then came the MOL stuff. And these days...they use google-fu inside the bunker.

 

Exposition is hard to write well, I get that but they never really bothered all that much. When the show started, they just had the advantage of not having used one simplistic way for 10 years plus.

 

But they still drive around a lot and have cases in their small towns of Vancouver, US. It`s just a matter of making those case episodes interesting and I didn`t find a single one such episode that stood out in Season 11 in a positive way.

 

Structure-wise, this Season reminds me of Season 6. In the first half, Sam got the visions and stuff along with the uber-pimping which dominated this string of episodes but it wasn`t actually the main arc. Just like soulless!Sam. Then the story moved to Cas becoming Lustiel and the focus went over to that more. At least that is connected to the main arc.

 

I just found one or two good Dean-eps in Season 6 vs. none in Season 11. On the other hand he theoretically has a plot arc this year (that nothing is done with) vs. jack and shit in Season 6. So I guess the Seasons are even for me at this point. I just find nothing really enjoyable about them.  

[catrox14]

UO is that I like s9 on the whole. Even with my apoplexy over demon!Dean LOL and my eventually falling for that asshole LOL.

 

There are some episodes that I greatly dislike but I like that they tried to do something different with Dean and MoC.I think it featured some of the best acting that Jensen has ever done on the show.

[rue721]

In retrospect, I like Bobby more now than I did when he was actually still around, and I like his dumpy house more, too. So in retrospect, I'm sad that it's a gigantic crater. Even though at the time, I barely registered it, tbh.

 

I don't really get why they had to blow it up, though. This show always seems to want to blow up or kill or utterly destroy people/things, instead of just letting them fade into the background (maybe permanently, maybe temporarily). Why does everything have to be so final and black-and-white? I would kind of preferred it if the dumpy house still existed, but they just didn't have any reason to go back there now that Bobby's gone. Or if they figured it was better not to go back because now that Bobby's dead, seeing his house would be a bummer.

 

I think the value to the bunker is in the new knowledge they have.  It's a payload of info but not all the info ever, so they still have to some sleuthing outside the bunker. 

 

The show used to portray research pretty differently than it does now, in that the characters used to use "regular" sources -- and painstakingly piece together patterns about supernatural activity based on what they found hidden between the lines of those non-supernatural sources. Or they used word of mouth (from other hunters) and personal experience and shoe leather to investigate. They also did a relatively large amount of debating over what each piece of possible evidence meant or whether it was evidence at all (which has ultimately been reduced to the rote "is this our kind of case" intro discussion that DDD has complained about before). Personally, I liked the old research-investigation-discussion MO better than the current Buffy Lite methods of the guys burying themselves in the bunker and sitting around being surrounded by piles of books and googling things and then just going in for the fight. It was more fun and imo it fit the tone/nature of this show better imo.

 

So anyway, to me, the piles of resources that the guys have now is actually a drawback rather than a perk of the show bringing the MoL bunker into the mix imo.

[Aeryn13]

 

UO is that I like s9 on the whole. Even with my apoplexy over demon!Dean LOL and my eventually falling for that asshole LOL.

 

Season 9 had First Born, an episode I like more than all of Season 11 combined so far. By a HUGE margin. 

 

Season 10 had a few good bits here and there though a really lackluster ending. At least Cain came back, that I loved. He was by far the best guest star IMO of the last few years. 

 

Season 8 had the Purgatory flashbacks and thus the only place in show history beyond the Season 7 Premiere where I found the Leviathans scary.

 

This Season has...I really can`t think of something beyond two minutes of Dean and Amara had in the black cloud in the Season Opener. I would happily go back to that, cut everything else that happened since and have a do-over of the Season. There is just nothing that happened in any of the episode since then that I would be sorry to lose. No noteworthy moment, nothing.

 

Maybe because Dean is my sole entry point and he appears so passive and apathetic, I can`t help but be apathetic too.  

Edited April 19, 2016 by Aeryn13

[Demented Daisy]

Apparently, an UO: I hate season 9 -- the only season I hate so far.  It is the worst season for Dean, IMO.  He's stupid and reckless; he's selfish and insensitive.  

 

Hate with the fire of 1000 suns.

[MysteryGuest]

Well, I've admitted that the myth arc episodes have left me mostly cold this season, but I have enjoyed most of the MOTW episodes.  I loved Baby and I loved the chemistry between Jensen and Dee Wallace in Into the Mystic, to name a couple.

[DittyDotDot]

That's what I thought at first but like I mentioned above but here is the dialogue that suggests it's only warded against evil not necessarily every thing ever.

 

If it's warded against only "evil" then how is it that Crowley has been able to waltz in and out of the bunker? How could the Stynes get access if it's simply evil it's warded against? There's good and evil in every species, so is it warding against bad intentions? In that case, why was Gadreel allowed in?

 

The problem with it being warded against evil is, how does one ward against evil? What's the criteria? What is evil, exactly? Every person on the planet would have a different definition of what evil is. Personally, I don't see how one can ward against something as nebulous as "evil", but you can ward against species. That's how the show has always functioned. There's sigils and devil's traps and such, but they only work on their intended species. That's how the handcuffs-that-can-trap-anything work--they are covered in sigils and such--that's how the dungeon inside the bunker works.

 

My head cannon is, the bunker isn't actually warded, it's just "invisible" unless you know the location already. So, anything can get in if it knows where it's at. That's the only way this makes any sort of sense to me. Explains how Sully got in, he followed Sam. Explains how Crowley got in, the boys took him there and had him locked up there, so he knew where the bunker was. Explains why Gadreel could get in and how Cass has been able to stroll on in.

 

However, my comment was more on how they tend to use the bunker more as a convenient plot device and dues ex machina and forget that plot device or dues ex machina in the next episode. Like how it was so very important to use the RISK table to track angel activity, but then never actually used the table to track angel activity. Or like how the the bunker is the safest place on earth except when it's conveniently not.

[catrox14]

I really think they have used the Bunker wisely in the show.

 

If it's warded against only "evil" then how is it that Crowley has been able to waltz in and out of the bunker? How could the Stynes get access if it's simply evil it's warded against? There's good and evil in every species, so is it warding against bad intentions? In that case, why was Gadreel allowed in?

 
I think that is a matter of what defined evil back when the LoL was set up. I think they were dealing with demons, the occult, mysticism, magic and alternate universes like Oz. They have lore on angels that the boys refer to it but IMO angels were not an active concern for MoL because angels were not on Earth when the MoL built the bunker.
 
*CASTIEL:  Three days ago, you thought there was no such thing as me. Why do you think we're here walking among you now for the first time in 2,000 years?
 
 
Crowley:  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Crowley has only ever been in the bunker under lock and key and in the Devi's Trap or was summoned by Sam. Crowley seemed to have ignored the summoning long enough to mess with Dean and then he and Dean left. Not sure how he could ignore for that long but I guess he could. 
 
Gadreel : Gadreel wasn't really evil IMO.  He was manipulated by Metatron into killing Kevin because he was trying to right the wrong IMO if intentions matter then his intentions were to make things right and help Sam and Dean.
 
Metatron: IIRC he only got in and out under lock and key with Dean and Sam.
 

However, my comment was more on how they tend to use the bunker more as a convenient plot device and dues ex machina and forget that plot device or dues ex machina in the next episode. Like how it was so very important to use the RISK table to track angel activity, but then never actually used the table to track angel activity. Or like how the the bunker is the safest place on earth except when it's conveniently not.

 
IIRC, they didn't know they could use it to track angel activity until the angels fell when the machine lit up the table and then it locked everything down.  Charlie was going to try to set up and angel tracking systems but then she went to Oz at the end of that episode so I don't think they ever finished it.

[MysteryGuest]

I just love the sort of time warpy, nostalgic feel of the place.  I love the old music, the dead man's robe, Dean's memory foam mattress ("it remembers me!")...I can't really explain it any better than that.  I just know that I enjoy most scenes that take place in the bunker.  

[Myrelle]

UO is that I like s9 on the whole. Even with my apoplexy over demon!Dean LOL and my eventually falling for that asshole LOL.

 

There are some episodes that I greatly dislike but I like that they tried to do something different with Dean and MoC.I think it featured some of the best acting that Jensen has ever done on the show.

 

IA. I think the best seasons for Jensen, as an actor, have been 2, 3, and 4 and 9 and 10. I also think that so far, 11 has been the worst for him in that same regard, But that's likely because I'm no longer concerned at all with liking Dean in the context of the brother's relationship. And it's likely also because I've become much more interested in seeing him deal with what's still inside that "lead box" of his that he still keeps all his "marbles" in for the most part, more than anything else that's been going on with him. And tbh, I think that that has always been the most interesting thing about this show for me. I originally thought that his present storyline held great potential for some more of that, but(again so far, IMO) what a bust that's proven to be.

[DittyDotDot]

I think that is a matter of what defined evil back when the LoL was set up. I think they were dealing with demons, the occult, mysticism, magic and alternate universes like Oz. They have lore on angels that the boys refer to it but IMO angels were not an active concern for MoL because angels were not on Earth when the MoL built the bunker.

 

But, now you're talking about warding for species, not necessarily evil. If it's evil they're warding against, then it shouldn't matter what species it is or whether the species was known to the MoL. Evil is evil regardless of how it physically manifests itself. So, if the bunker is warded against evil, anything labeled by the show as "evil" should not be able to get in regardless of whether they're an angel, demon, human... .

 

 

Crowley:  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Crowley has only ever been in the bunker under lock and key and in the Devi's Trap or was summoned by Sam. Crowley seemed to have ignored the summoning long enough to mess with Dean and then he and Dean left. Not sure how he could ignore for that long but I guess he could. 

 

If it's been warded against, then it should not be able to enter, even with an invitation, IMO. Whether the bunker is warded against evil or demons, Crowley should not have been able to walk over the threshold whether he was in chains or whether Sam summoned him. The warding should've rejected him, IMO.

 

Basically, either it's warded or it's not. Since more things have gotten in than have been kept out, I tend to think it's not warded, but just invisible to anything not human. In fact, has the warding ever kept anything out since the boys found it?

 

 

Gadreel : Gadreel wasn't really evil IMO.  He was manipulated by Metatron into killing Kevin because he was trying to right the wrong IMO if intentions matter then his intentions were to make things right and help Sam and Dean.

 

But now it's back to warding against this nebulous idea of evil which would be defined differently by each person. Gadreel may have been recruited by Marvatron, but Gadreel knew what he was doing was wrong and made a choice to kill Kevin for his own selfish reasons. Just because he felt bad about it later makes it no less of an evil act to me. IMO, Gadreel was not trying to help Sam and Dean, but was trying to find his own redemption through murder. Which is evil in my book.

 

But, I also agree with you that Gadreel wasn't inherently evil, even though he engaged in evil acts. This is the problem with this whole concept. Evil isn't something physical that you can define and ward against. It's a moral idea or label we use to describe something bad, but is different to each person. So, how would the bunker be able to recognize what is evil when there is no way to actually define it?

[trxr4kids]

From As Time Goes By:

 

SAM
So... Abaddon wants the key so she can get her hands on it.

LARRY
[chuckles] Can you imagine what she would do with that?

SAM
So, how do we stop her? How do we stop Abaddon?

LARRY
You don't. [He takes a pen out of his pocket and writes on a notepad.] If you know where the key is, then take it to these coordinates. [He hands the notepad to SAM.] Throw it in. Shut the door forever. And walk away.

SAM
Wait, w-why would I do that?

LARRY
Because it is the safest place on earth, warded against any evil ever created. It is impervious to any entry, except the key.

 

So where did the Stynes get a key since there was only the one? Did one of them just pick pocket Sam or Dean?