Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

RulerofallIsurvey · April 15, 2016

I suppose my UO is that Chuck is God and I don't have a problem with the show going that route. It's completely acceptable to me if He helps the Winchesters in the fight against Amara and then goes back to playing skee-ball in New Jersey. ;-)

Nice Dogma reference! Although, keeping in the spirit, if they have to 'personify' God, I'd rather see her as a female singer from the 70's...Joan Baez, maybe?

catrox14 · April 15, 2016

Nice Dogma reference! Although, keeping in the spirit, if they have to 'personify' God, I'd rather see her as a female singer from the 70's...Joan Baez, maybe?

I will accept Prince as God...and no other.

RulerofallIsurvey · April 15, 2016

I will accept Prince as God...and no other.

I'm not sure Dean would know who Prince was....might be too recent of an artist for him. ;)

catrox14 · April 15, 2016

I'm not sure Dean would know who Prince was....might be too recent of an artist for him. ;)

Dean knows who Taylor Swift is therefore Dean knows who Prince is because Prince is awesome and Dean likes awesome iconic rock stars.

rue721 · April 15, 2016

Nice Dogma reference! Although, keeping in the spirit, if they have to 'personify' God, I'd rather see her as a female singer from the 70's...Joan Baez, maybe?

Actually, now that you mention it, Joan Baez would be surprisingly perfect!

ETA:

Although, between Alanis Morissette and Sinead O'Connor, I'm kind of over the "singer as God" thing.

Plus, remember when Castiel tried to "appear" to Dean in the S4 premier? If angels are that mind-blowing to humans in their true forms, and that hard on their vessels, then what would an earthly appearance by God be like?

LOL unless God is "the Empty." Thinking about that now, maybe that would be kind of cool.

Edited April 15, 2016 by rue721

RulerofallIsurvey · April 15, 2016

Actually, now that you mention it, Joan Baez would be surprisingly perfect!

Heh. "The Night They Drove Ol' Amara Down".

Plus, remember when Castiel tried to "appear" to Dean in the S4 premier? If angels are that mind-blowing to humans in their true forms, and that hard on their vessels, then what would an earthly appearance by God be like?

In their true form. But God wouldn't be in his/her true form. There's also Biblical precedence for God walking the earth in the Old Testament. (Not just in Eden with Adam.) So...not sure this would be an issue.

And it sure won't be if Chuck is God.

catrox14 · April 15, 2016

eir true form. But God wouldn't be in his/her true form. There's also Biblical precedence for God walking the earth in the Old Testament. (Not just in Eden with Adam.) So...not sure this would be an issue.

I would think God would take a vessel at birth just like Amara did.

So to me if Chuck is God then he doesn't know he's God or he's a lying liar who lies because Chuck said he didn't know who Sam and Dean were when he met them.

Edited April 15, 2016 by catrox14

AwesomO4000 · April 15, 2016

Generally in fiction if the villain likes or admires or identifies with the second lead or the Co lead isn't that like a bad thing meaning the audience is supposed to doubt the morality of the protagonist and its used to diminish his status as a hero? Typically if there is only one main character that would maybe lead to the protagonist being an anti hero, but here since we have Sam as the main character and all of the villains basically hate him and he hates them it's clearly adversarial at all times(despite any misbegotten alliances).

I'm not so sure that it is this black and white myself. Did Ruby really hate Sam, and even vica-versa? What you are concerned about the writer's showing between Dean and Amara, they already did show between Sam and Ruby. What was shown in the flashbacks in season 4 was not just a sexual relationship, in my opinion, it was almost a partnership. It didn't look "clearly adversarial at all times" to me. Not that I liked that happening, but that is what I saw. Similarly, in the beginning, did Lucifer really hate Sam? I don't know. Sam truly hated Lucifer, but I don't know how much it went the other way.

I mean I might think Sam is an idiot or a dick at times but he is always the hero in the end.

I'm not so sure this is so black and white either, at least in the later years. One of the reasons that I am enjoying this season so much is that Sam actually did something hunting-wise. But for the most part, for me in the Carver years, it's been a long time coming that Sam actually did anything "heroic." I would go so far to say that a few times Carver went out of his way to show Sam in an unheroic light. One can argue the "maturity" issue of not looking for Dean, but I would be hard pressed to call Sam abandoning Kevin as "heroic" in any way, and the narrative would seem to agree with the whole "eat me" scene and both dean and Kevin berating Sam for doing it. And in the end of that season, he didn't finish the trials, so nothing heroic there. he also didn't save Dean from becoming a demon in season 9 (and his whining and complaining were not only unheroic, but hypocritical).

In addition I sometimes wonder if Carver goes out of his way to have Sam behave like an idiot and a dick, too, but that's another issue.

Azazel was focused on Sam, naturally. Lucifer was all about Sam. Lilith was a Sam-mytharc-character. The Leviathans focused on noone. The Mother of all monsters didn`t either, not really. Abaddon may have expressed some appreciation for Dean`s looks but that is not what I`m referring to. And sexualized violence is a big thing with Dean and demons.

Dean had his own connection to Azazel in "In the Beginning" when Sam wasn't even there, and that Dean killed Azazel gives them even more connection. It could even be argued that Dean was part of the reason that Azazel got interested in the Winchesters in the first place, because technically he saw Dean first.

Sexualized violence is big with Sam and demons also - both Meg and Lilith forced unwanted sexual contact on Sam. Lucifer is technically an angel or else of course he would count also.

It`s basically the same as Azazel going "you`re my favourite" to Sam. It was clear that this was not a good thing, it was creepy and Sam neither liked it nor he could help it. That didn`t put his hero or lead status into question. It just communicated to the audience that in the story of all the special kids, Sam was just a tad bit more special than anyone else which is why the story was about him and not all those other characters.

Apparently not enough about him that he had anything to do with killing Azazel or in the summation "That was for our mom." In the end, for me, Azazel was as much a means to an end to start Dean's hell arc and to end the hunt for Mary's killer. It also jump started Sam's Lucifer arc, but for me the actual Azazel part was just as much about Dean through Mary and via "In the Beginning" and Dean's hell arc and the John guilt about the deal as he was about Sam.

catrox14 · April 15, 2016

I'm not so sure that it is this black and white myself. Did Ruby really hate Sam, and even vica-versa? What you are concerned about the writer's showing between Dean and Amara, they already did show between Sam and Ruby. What was shown in the flashbacks in season 4 was not just a sexual relationship, in my opinion, it was almost a partnership. It didn't look "clearly adversarial at all times" to me. Not that I liked that happening, but that is what I saw. Similarly, in the beginning, did Lucifer really hate Sam? I don't know. Sam truly hated Lucifer, but I don't know how much it went the other way.

There are blurred lines in SPN but I think mostly the show has stuck with how it was set up in the pilot.

Dean is the ne'er do well brother who shows up in the middle of the night acting sketchy whilst Sam is the good kid in college with his pretty GF. Sam was about vengeance but he was still the Hero. He wasn't really the anti-hero. He proved his heroism over and over (as did Dean but Dean was still considered the snarkier but questionable moral charactre...character. It veers off sometimes but the basic premise is still that way.

I never doubted that Sam was hero even with Ruby because of how they built Sam up. I was pissed off at Sam for falling for Ruby's shenanigans but it never made me think he was no longer or would not again be the hero at some point. Don't get me wrong, Sam annoyed the fuck out of me in s1 and part of s2. I would find myself shouting "SHUT UP SAM" a lot. And I often just didn't like Sam and at times I outright hated him for how he treated Dean and ignored Dean. But never questioned that he was a hero and was intended to be the hero. I mean I don't have to like the hero all the time or even some of the time for him to still be the Hero.

I dont think Ruby and Sam ever truly liked or cared about each other on any level. Ruby used him to the very end.

Oh gods that first scene of sex between them told me all I needed to know. He really didn't want to do but you know he gave into the loneliness and grief and Ruby offered him comfort and possible vengeance. And believe me, I had just as much squick with Sam and Ruby as I do with Dean and Amara actually a bit more.

I was like NOPE, NOPE NOPE WHAT ARE YOU DOING SAM! STAAAHHHPP. ew ew ew. She took advantage of his broken heart with Dean being in Hell. I think Sam was ashamed of what he was doing but he was addicted to either the demon blood or the power he felt from it. He was pompous and arrogant. At least that was how it seemed to me. But in the end he was still the Hero and the villains hate him and he hated Ruby in the end again.

MysteryGuest · April 15, 2016

I guess I just don't feel that Dean has been excluded from the storyline. I honestly think that it's been pretty well shared this season. Even just in the last episode, both brothers were working together to trap Lucifer and save Cas. No one took the lead there, they were a team, which they've pretty much been all season. I like that because it's a nice change. Even when they have disagreements, like when Sam referred to Cas' vessel as "it", they actually talked it out and didn't just let it fester between them. I see that as progress.

I'm also not at all convinced that Dean will be a by-stander or just a witness to what goes down with Amara. We know that Dean feels that way because he's not sure what to make of their bond, but we have to have some angst and tension, otherwise there's no story. I think in the end they'll all work together to get rid of both Lucifer and Amara.

AwesomO4000 · April 16, 2016

Discussion time! I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I really am interested in the differences in how we see things. It always fascinates me when I read other opinions, especially ones which are so different from my own.

There are blurred lines in SPN but I think mostly the show has stuck with how it was set up in the pilot.

Dean is the ne'er do well brother who shows up in the middle of the night acting sketchy whilst Sam is the good kid in college with his pretty GF. Sam was about vengeance but he was still the Hero. He wasn't really the anti-hero. He proved his heroism over and over (as did Dean but Dean was still considered the snarkier but questionable moral charactre...character. It veers off sometimes but the basic premise is still that way.

It's interesting how we all see the same show and interpret it so differently, because this isn't what I saw. I thought that what was hinted at in the pilot was very quickly changed up by the second episode. I thought "Wendigo" showed very clearly that Dean was the one who was about "saving people, hunting things" whereas Sam wanted his vengeance and didn't want to follow what John wanted them to do. And throughout much of the first two seasons Dean remained loyal to the heroic "saving people..." credo. I thought it was Sam who was set up as the "rebellious" brother - which was the theme reiterated by Gabriel in "Changing Channels" - and generally whenever Sam's leaving home was brought up, it was usually in a negative light. "Scarecrow" had Dean agreeing that it was a semi-good thing, but that didn't last very long. And by "Afterschool Special" Sam was shown to have learned his lesson. Same with season 8. Sam learned that lesson again and by season 10 he had sworn off his "rebellious" ways.

But I never got the impression that Dean was the "ne'er do well brother." To me Dean was painted as the loyal brother, and Sam was the ne'er do well, rebellious one which is why he was the one who was Lucifer's vessel. Which in itself is somewhat telling to me. In the pilot, yes Sam was the one in college, but I thought that the show established fairly quickly that it valued real world experience over formal education. In general, most of the academics on the show have been shown as either jerks (the ethics professor in "Tall Tales") or bad guys (the professor in "Scarecrow"), or if they do seem to be positive, it turns out that they are actually a monster (Eleanor - though monster or not, Eleanor was kind of awesome. I know, I know she killed people, but still..).

Don't get me wrong, Sam annoyed the fuck out of me in s1 and part of s2. I would find myself shouting "SHUT UP SAM" a lot. And I often just didn't like Sam and at times I outright hated him for how he treated Dean and ignored Dean.

This is another thing that I didn't see. There was one or two episodes where I thought maybe Sam treated Dean a bit badly. One was "Phantom Traveler", but that was an episode where I thought that Sam and other characters were written out of character. For example, I never believed that John would brag about Sam being in college to some stranger he was doing a job for. John was a suspicious, guarded person. That just seemed so entirely off to me. That writer only wrote two episodes, neither of them complimentary to Sam. The other episode ("Asylum") was the other questionable time that Sam may have treated Dean a little badly, so I more chalked it up to that particular writer. But other than that, I don't really remember Sam treating Dean badly, or maybe I'm missing something. I actually thought season 1 Sam was fairly good to Dean and was very supportive - such as in "Faith" and the end of "Scarecrow" and "Something Wicked" where he even apologized for his questioning why Dean followed John's orders. And I thought that early season 2 Sam was also supportive of Dean with a hiccup or two where he got a bit frustrated (such as "Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things"). I guess I really am missing Sam treating Dean badly except for those rare examples I mentioned.

I also don't remember Sam ignoring Dean any more than Dean ignored Sam - as shown by Dean's "blah blah blahing" Sam description in "Tall Tales" and his outright ignoring Sam in "Everybody Loves A Clown" - so again, it's really interesting and perhaps illustrates the complexity of the show that we can see the same things and interpret them so differently.

I dont think Ruby and Sam ever truly liked or cared about each other on any level. Ruby used him to the very end.

I'm not so sure about that. Listening to how Sam talks about Ruby in "I Know What You Did..." there was, in my opinion, at least indebtedness there for Ruby saving his life. He didn't seem very ashamed of describing his liaison to Dean. Dean even told him "too much information."

I think Sam was ashamed of what he was doing but he was addicted to either the demon blood or the power he felt from it. He was pompous and arrogant. At least that was how it seemed to me. But in the end he was still the Hero and the villains hate him and he hated Ruby in the end again.

He was ashamed of the blood drinking, yes. I'm not as sure about the rest. And as for the pompous and arrogant thing, that's another thing that didn't ring true for me as I talked about earlier in my critique of season 4. Sam had left his arrogance when it came to Dean - which as I said was in my opinion overblown anyway - behind after "Something Wicked" and it was reinforced in early season 2 (when Sam decided that John had raised him the best he could after John's death), and all of a sudden in the second half of season 4 he's talking about Dean being "weak" and that he (Sam) is the only one who can stop things. For me, that was a big dose of plotonium there. In "Heaven and Hell" Sam was fine with Dean's abilities and they were working together to defeat the bad guys just fine. Sam even sincerely supported Dean when he told his big secret: "Dean... Dean, look, you held out for 30 years. That's longer than anyone would have." But the plot couldn't have Sam being supportive, I guess, so he had to change and be arrogant to have his big downfall. Too bad that it made little sense (to me) and the following episodes didn't really explain why Sam changed his mind. I really dislike what season 4 did to Sam's character in the name of plot, because in my opinion, it really did make little sense and was not at all organic to Sam's character. And the supposed big change where Sam decided to drink the demon blood again made almost no sense at all. It was all so contrived. "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old." What does that even mean and why did Sam come to that conclusion? Next thing you know Sam is all "oh I can defeat Lilith all by myself" arrogant and dissing Dean - when he wasn't deciding that hunting is what he should be doing because that is part of growing up that is ("Afterschool Special" - which is the opposite of "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old"). In my opinion, that whole group of transition episodes sucked at showing an organic story. It's the main reason I think season 4 is overrated.

And he may have hated Ruby in the end, but I think part of that was from him feeling betrayed, which wouldn't have hurt as much if he hadn't felt some kind of small trust in her, in my opinion. Sam also wasn't exactly shown as the hero at the end of season 4 either - more the goat, since he was played and raised Lucifer. I didn't see a building up there, but a tearing down. Sam had to spend most of season 5 playing the make-up role: being hated, hunted, berated, and mistrusted until he could work his way back to hero status, and even then for some fans it was too late and Sam would never be seen as really heroic again, so I guess miles vary on how the show portrays Sam.

rue721 · April 16, 2016

But I never got the impression that Dean was the "ne'er do well brother." To me Dean was painted as the loyal brother, and Sam was the ne'er do well, rebellious one which is why he was the one who was Lucifer's vessel. Which in itself is somewhat telling to me. In the pilot, yes Sam was the one in college, but I thought that the show established fairly quickly that it valued real world experience over formal education.

I think the show purposefully did a surprising/fun reversal by representing Dean as both the sleazy drifter and "the responsible one" within the family, and by representing Sam as both the studious college kid already settling down with a nice girl at age 22 and "the rebellious, hard-headed ne'er-do-well" within the family.

I don't know how or why I would have heard the commentary for any of the early season episodes, because I don't have/never saw any SPN seasons on DVD, but I remember from some commentary or interview or something that they specifically liked Dean's line about "and that's why I always got the extra cookie" because they liked showing that he was considered the golden son within the family (because it was unexpected). I don't think that was supposed to be some big statement about life or society or anything, though, I think it was meant to be a delightful reversal that showed how exotic the hunting life was and to establish who the Winchesters were.

Also, I think the show has been careful to establish that BOTH Dean and Sam are fundamentally admirable and heroic, but that neither of them is squeaky clean. Since Sam was the reasonably clean-cut college kid, they started out by emphasizing/establishing his dark side -- his selfishness, rage, vengeance, etc. Since Dean was the sleazy one, they started out by emphasizing his lighter side -- his capacity to be dependable, caring, etc. I think the point was to flesh them both out. I think the show overestimates how much of a relateable "every man" Sam comes across as and therefore didn't/doesn't put enough effort into fleshing him and his motivations out. But I think that's an oversight/misunderstanding rather than some message they're trying to send about Sam as a character.

Anyway, I disagree that the show quickly established that real world experience was more valuable than formal education. Imo, the show didn't develop its anti-intellectual streak for at least a little while. In the very early days, even hunting required lots of research and strategy. The show initially established John and Dean's bonefides by showing off John's research skills and Dean's resourcefulness. The show was (and is) also very careful to specify that Dean (and John) were furious with Sam for leaving the family, while (despite?) being proud of him for getting into and succeeding at Stanford. That was why they had the guy in Phantom Traveler say that John bragged about Sam even while John was giving Sam the silent treatment, imo.

But I guess this is kind of like fans' complaints that Dean is portrayed as stupid. I don't see that, either. Imo, the show has tried hard to show that Dean and Sam are very smart and that hunting is *a learned skill.* It's not a college major, but their ability also doesn't come from some random "midichlorian"-based bullshit; hunting is something that the guys have *studied* and practiced and improved at over time. (This is one of the reasons I hate things like Sam and Dean being "bred" by God and being "legacies" at the Men of Letters secret society and all that. That kind of stuff makes hunters into some weirdo aristocracy that Sam and Dean inherited a place in, rather than something they are because they chose to be and earned it).

Also having to do with the show trying to show that the guys don't have a problem with school, and that it's sad that it can't fit into their lives: like I've commented before (probably years ago at this point!), I actually find it poignant that Dean apparently sat for the GED, because why in the world would he care about having any kind of diploma? He had to know that if he was going to be a hunter for the rest of his life, whether or not he sat for it really didn't matter. Not that I think that the writers likely gave much thought to their random mentions of Dean having a GED, it's just a little touch that I like/find interesting.

AwesomO4000 · April 16, 2016

Anyway, I disagree that the show quickly established that real world experience was more valuable than formal education. Imo, the show didn't develop its anti-intellectual streak for at least a little while. In the very early days, even hunting required lots of research and strategy. The show initially established John and Dean's bonefides by showing off John's research skills and Dean's resourcefulness. The show was (and is) also very careful to specify that Dean (and John) were furious with Sam for leaving the family, while (despite?) being proud of him for getting into and succeeding at Stanford. That was why they had the guy in Phantom Traveler say that John bragged about Sam even while John was giving Sam the silent treatment, imo.

I agree that in the early seasons especially there was a lot of research needed for hunting. I was specifically referring to formal education. I just didn't see the show so much as saying a formal college education was all that to write home about. Books and research however seemed to be a staple of most of the iterations of hunting - John, even Ash (who interestingly got kicked out of college, but was still extremely smart), Bobby, Sam, Dean, and the Men of Letters bunker.

And my main objection to John bragging about Sam going to college was less about the college part and more about John being suspicious and generally not a people person. The idea of him telling a mostly stranger any family business just didn't seem like something he would do to me. What if the information that Sam was alone at college somehow got into the wrong hands?

Edited April 16, 2016 by AwesomO4000

DittyDotDot · April 16, 2016

I think the show has always gone to great pains to show Sam and Dean are two sides of the same coin, in just about everything. They're both heroic and flawed, just in different ways. Sam is a "good" kid who follows society's rules, but also arrogant, angry and defiant of his father's rules. Dean is a good son following his dad's rules, but breaks many of society's rules. I don't think the show itself has ever been saying one is better than the other, just different.

Same with them both being smart. I think the show has been pretty clear that education does not equal intelligence. The show had Dean come out and state "You don't have to go to college to be a genius," all the way back in Hookman which told me from the get-go their stance on this. Look at Bobby, he was said to be a genius and had no formal education other than the basic requirements.

IMO it tends to be the viewers own bias on these things rather than show's, most of the time.

Edited April 16, 2016 by DittyDotDot

Aeryn13 · April 16, 2016

These writers are pretty simplistic and straight forward, hence they also use most common tropes for depiction of intelligence. Shorthand, if you will. And the designated brother they do that with in 9.5 cases out of 10 is Sam. Whenever a random intellectual skill is to pulled out of their asses, Sam will have taken a College course for it. There is equally 4 years Dean has unaccounted for in which he could have aquired such a skill. Bits and pieces of a language, some particular knowledge etc. But nope, it comes from Sam`s College years.

The exposition is handled in such a way that Dean doesn`t know something and Sam has to explain it to him. Even if it is such common knowledge that someone looks dumb for not knowing it. I don`t know which audience they think they are writing to in such instances.

Dean gets knowledge - and even that is not consistent - in pop culture or music. That is not viewed as intellectual knowledge in society. Someone spouting off art history knowledge or doing a reverse Latin exorcism is. Maybe it looks pretentious but it still is established shorthand for "genius".

Whenever a brother gets insulted in terms of brainiacs, i.e. called stupid or short bus or anything like that, it is in 9.5 cases out of 10, Dean. And not just by bad guys but by pretty much anyone, including mouth piece characters.

IMO Sam is supposed to be somewhat of a genius and Dean`s IQ is fluid, depending on plot requirements or writer preferences. If they want to write him in such a way that 95 % of audience would perceive as dumb for comedy relief or plot reasons, they will. Smarts is not supposed to be such an established part of his character, that it isn`t to be trifled with. overall.

Like Joey Tribiana on Friends. He was supposed to be a nice guy but he was also supposed to come across as pretty dim for comedic value. I can`t remember Ross showing overall great intellect but he had an academic degree, hence the audience was never supposed to view him as dim.

Education not being intelligence, I agree with it. But it is still conflated for the most part. And the writers are part of the same society as we all with the same general primers. That infuses their writing.

If they wanted to establish Dean as smart or as smart as Sam, they would do it via other common tropes. He`d secretely have a high IQ or be secretely a part of Mensa or have secretely rejected College offers from prestigious schools. Stuff like that which is society`s ideas of "smart".

Bobby, they gave such scenes to, despite the blue collar bkacground but that is IMO because he got introduced first as the scholarly friend/ally before they widened that role to surrogate parent.

SueB · April 16, 2016

I'm with DittyDotDot on this question. Well stated.

As for show sticking with original concept, the 200th special made it clear that it took a turn after "Faith". They realized the boy's relationship was far more important than the monsters they were facing. And as for Dean emerging less as a stereotype than as a fully realized character, that was shifted rapidly after the pilot IMO. If you look at those most involved in a consistent portrayal of Dean having much more depth the main players in that shift were: Kripke, Gamble, Manners, and Singer. (Sources: Faith commentary, Kim Manners interview, Singer/Gambel episode association, and 200th special).

Kripke himself stated that they brought Dean much more to the fore in S2. They recognized what they had and ran with it.

Edited April 16, 2016 by SueB

MysteryGuest · April 16, 2016

We definitely all have our own interpretation of things. I don't really feel that the show tried to show either brother as better than the other. They were different in many ways, due to their different life experiences, but they also had a solid bond with one another. Sam was shown to be book smart, while Dean was street smart. Dean was the obedient son, while Sam obviously clashed with his father. Again, I didn't really notice that one was preferred over the other. Both are needed to make this partnership work.

They have at times made comments about Dean's intellect, but in most cases it was done in a teasing way. I think Dean plays "dumb" sometimes as part of his schtick. But there have also been numerous times where they've shown that he's perfectly capable of in-depth research and that he's well-read.

Unfortunately, due to just plain bad writing, there have been times where their characters have been trashed for no apparent reason, other than to further the plot. Season 8 will always be my shining example of that. But on the whole, I don't think the writers favor one over the other. They're just two halves of the whole.

Aeryn13 · April 16, 2016

Sam was shown to be book smart, while Dean was street smart.

Usually in "buddy cop" movies or shows you have more clearly defined types like this but is Sam really lacking in streets smarts? Or badassery and brawn/muscle territory? I don`t think so. Yet the booksmarts, exposition, intellectual and research area remains overwhelmingly his domain. That way, Sam fits both types. He is basically both characters in the buddy cop movie rolled in one.

What Dean gets overwhelmingly between the two is the comedy relief stuff and that has increasingly taken a turn at the mean-spirited, inviting the audience to laugh at the character, not with him. Even the emo stuff they give him tends to be played less sympathetically and more inviting boohoo speeches or eyerolls or "gee, how pathetic"

I think this year they mostly made him passive. It`s like he is sleepwalking through this entire Season. If that is how this supposed "being a team" looks like, with Dean half asleep at all times, then give me back the conflicts. At least the character felt alive last Season.

catrox14 · April 16, 2016

Unfortunately, due to just plain bad writing, there have been times where their characters have been trashed for no apparent reason, other than to further the plot. Season 8 will always be my shining example of that. But on the whole, I don't think the writers favor one over the other.

Writers on this show have admitted they have characters they favor. Sera Gamble was a self-professed Sam girl. Ben Edlund was a Cas guy but seemed to enjoy writing Dean. Carver is a Crowley boy. Robbie Thompson was a Charlie guy. I don't know if Kripke was a Sam guy or Dean Guy but he clearly wrote a Hero's Journey for Sam Winchester whether that meant Sam or Dean was his favorite...I don't know. I think Kim Manners had more to do with Dean's role morphing into beyond the dickish bully archetype he was in the pilot to the Dean we got in the back half of s1 and henceforth.

Point being writers have their faves and that is okay as long they have other writers or a showrunner to remind them that other characters exist and need tending and continuity and maybe a POV and a SL of their own.

Myrelle · April 16, 2016

I see all the time that Dean has always been depicted as the "obedient, good son" while Sam was supposedly depicted as the more rebellious one and yet going all the way back to the beginning of S1 it was Sam who followed Dad's Rule No.1 concerning hunting and telling others about it even with the love of his life Jessica, while Dean broke it for Cassie. So all that nonsense ever told me was that each brother thinks of themselves and the other in those terms because of the roles that were forced upon them from childhood, but in truth. Dean is not and never has been as "obedient" of a son as Sam or John or even he himself thinks he is and always has been. When it comes to what's important to Dean, Dean has been thinking for himself since the very beginning of this series, IMO. Likewise, I think Sam has always liked to fancy himself as different from the rest of his hunting family, but when it comes down to it, he's not that different from them at all, not in his more heroic qualities or in his flaws. The only real difference that I have ever seen in the two brothers is that Sam has a better developed sense of self and of his overall own self worth than Dean. And Sam's sense of self worth is really only threatened when he feels that Dean isn't completely filling the role of being his No. 1 fan. That's why Sam seems very happy to me this season. Dean is back in that place that makes Sam feel most happy and comfortable as a hunter, while Dean is still just going through the motions of being "happy" to me because he is again just seeing himself simply as an extension of Sam and what he can do for Sam as per the prime directive handed down to him by Daddy Dearest all those years ago. It would be nice if this season's finale gave us some growth is this area for Dean and in more than just the usual way that will w/o fail involve the necessity of his learning to let Sam go. It would be nice if Dean realized that he is and always has been important in his own right and much, much more than just and simply an extension of his younger brother. But this would mean that Dean would have to have a purpose in the present story other than being Sam's( and Cas') support system. I guess we'll see if the writers/showrunners want to go there this time. It's what many in the Dean fandom are waiting and looking for this time, again IMO. And it's long overdue. IMO.

DittyDotDot · April 16, 2016

Sera Gamble was a self-professed Sam girl.

I'd actually like to see poof of this. I've heard fans say Sera was a Sam-girl, but in all my digging around, I've never heard her say that or seen evidence of that myself. Of course, I could've missed it, so I'd be very interested if anyone has a link to something where Sera said this herself.

catrox14 · April 16, 2016

What Dean gets overwhelmingly between the two is the comedy relief stuff and that has increasingly taken a turn at the mean-spirited, inviting the audience to laugh at the character, not with him. Even the emo stuff they give him tends to be played less sympathetically and more inviting boohoo speeches or eyerolls or "gee, how pathetic"

Dean's comic moments used to be more organic, like Yellow Fever or Hollywood Babylon or Monster Movie or Frontierland, or maybe Jensen just played a funny beat for a minute, like Jump the Shark when he just drops his head out of frustrationg that Jeffrey's tubes went ON FORVER. That was funny and well played. It didn't take over the scene but enhanced the scene.

Dean could get away with food hanging out of his mouth or stuffing candy in it for the Trickster episode because of how it was cleverly integrated into the episode. And Dean was 10 years younger then. If a villain mocked Dean, he had snarky rejoinder where he got the last word or if the villain got the last snide insult, Dean got to stab them in the face. You know?

The last really good broad comedy moment was in Everybody Loves Hitler but it wasn't TOO broad when he backs into the table. That's funny because Dean was totally flummoxed by Aaron. Dog Dean was funny for 5 minutes and Jensen was funny playing a dog. I will say s10 we got much more of Dean's being cleverly funny. Underplaying the comedy or making a comic moment work in a serious scene, like with demon!Dean or Inside Man with "I got a tear in my eye" . That was legit funny. This season I thought wrestling episode would end up being a train wreck but Jensen reined himself in or the director did and the comedy was just right again. I hope that trend continues.

catrox14 · April 16, 2016

I'd actually like to see poof of this. I've heard fans say Sera was a Sam-girl, but in all my digging around, I've never heard her say that or seen evidence of that myself. Of course, I could've missed it, so I'd be very interested if anyone has a link to something where Sera said this herself.

I can't quite remember if it was an interview or commentary. If you want to leave Sera out of the conversation, feel free. That doesn't change the overall point of my comment which is that writers DO have their faves whoever that fave is. Robert Kirkman's fave in the Walking Dead is Michonne, not Rick Grimes.

Supernatural writers are no exception in that area. So it's bound to show up in the writing at some point. It happens. As long as someone is monitoring that to keep a balance or hell if it's not even a balance just give the other characters some life and something to DO and maybe not reduce characters to service plot

Edited April 16, 2016 by catrox14

MysteryGuest · April 16, 2016

I'm sure writers have characters they prefer to write about, maybe because they relate more to that character, themselves...who knows. My point was that at least from my perspective, neither brother has been made to look all right, or all wrong. They both have good points and bad, just like most of us.

The book smart/street smart comment was general. Obviously, each character possesses both traits to some degree, but I still think the general description applies. Sam certainly can more than hold his own on the street, but I think he's been shown to be more naive than Dean, at least in the early years. And Dean may not be able to recite every fact about a subject the way Sam can, but that doesn't mean he's without knowledge of the subject.

Jensen is great at the comedy stuff, so I think that's why he gets most of it. But I do agree that sometimes they go overboard. I didn't care for some scenes this year involving the spitting of food, etc. I thought that was out of character for him, especially in his own kitchen. This may be an unpopular opinion, but I thought the cat scene in Yellow Fever was over the top.

Edited April 16, 2016 by MysteryGuest

DittyDotDot · April 16, 2016

I can't quite remember if it was an interview or commentary. If you want to leave Sera out of the conversation, feel free. That doesn't change the overall point of my comment which is that writers DO have their faves whoever that fave is. Robert Kirkman's fave in the Walking Dead is Michonne, not Rick Grimes. Supernatural writers are no exception.

I wasn't refuting your point. Of course writers--like almost all humans--have some personal biases, I just don't see their biases come through in the writing for this show. Whether one likes the story or the writing or not, I just don't see they favor any character over the other onscreen. I realize that's my opinion and it's not necessarily shared by group and I'm okay with that.

However, I was just asking if someone could actually provide proof that Sera professed herself a Sam-girl. I'm just curious because I keep hearing it said she said this, but I've yet to have anyone be able to even say where or when this was supposed to have occured. I've listened to all the commentaries through S9 and I don't recall her stating anything of the like. Nor did I get the impression she favored Sam over Dean from all the interviews I've watched and read over the years. At one time, I had the impression she preferred writing for Dean--not that she preferred either character--but I assumed that was my own personal bias because I prefer wise cracking to petulant almost any day.

Anyway, without proof of this self-profession, the only conclusion I can come to, at this point, is Sera being a Sam-girl is more legend than fact.

Edited April 16, 2016 by DittyDotDot

catrox14 · April 16, 2016

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I thought the cat scene in Yellow Fever was over the top

I think that cat scene was the director's doing. Jensen has said that the director wanted him to just go as loud and long as he could. So there you go. LOL

SueB · April 16, 2016

Some of the OTT comedy is Jensen, sometimes it's the director. In the Yellow Fever case, the director told him to "go big". In Mystic Falls, Jensen did the food spitting.

Guy Norman Bee once responded to a tweet of mine that he had added the "constantly eating food" bit to the "Things We Left Behind". I had first asked him if that was scripted. When he replied it was his idea, I asked if he was trying to show Dean was overcompensating for the Mark and he said that was a valid interpretation.

I do think Jensen does "food" and comedy well and Directors (more than writers) will leverage what they think works for the benefit of THEIR episode. I also think Jensen treats Dean "dumber" than the writers do. LIke in The Vessel, the "who?"after Jules Verne was an ad lib.

While I'm tempted to PSY 101 him on this, I'll just leave the observation that Jensen has no problem with being goofy on camera.

Edited April 16, 2016 by SueB

rue721 · April 16, 2016

Jensen is great at the comedy stuff, so I think that's why he gets most of it. But I do agree that sometimes they go overboard. I didn't care for some scenes this year involving the spitting of food, etc. I thought that as out of character for him, especially in his own kitchen. This may be an unpopular opinion, but I thought the cat scene in Yellow Fever was over the top.

Actually, I think Jared has pretty good comedic chops, especially when it comes to the broader, more physical comedy. One of my favorite scenes in the show is still Sam losing his shoe down the sewer grate in Bad Day of Black Rock. I wish he got a lot more of that kind of stuff. Plus, something about Sam is so serious and intense that it's pretty much always funny and/or endearing when he's hapless.

On the other hand, even though a lot of the candid shots/videos of Jensen in the Media thread are pretty goofy and I think he's probably funny irl, I think that that kind of comedy doesn't come all that easily to him when it's scripted. He tends to go overboard and get too hammy, and I think he just has trouble selling it. To me, the heavier, more dramatic stuff seems to come easier to him, and he's especially great at the silent scenes/moments and just using his face/body to tell the story.

IIrc, Jared said he likes getting the heavier, more dramatic scenes, and Jensen likes getting the lighter, comedic or action-oriented stuff. I think they each actually have a preference for getting the kind of scenes that come less naturally to them as actors, which is pretty cool.

MysteryGuest · April 16, 2016

The comedic moments of Jensen's that I like the best are just some of his expressions, or the one-liners he throws out. The broader stuff, regardless of whose idea it might be, doesn't always work for me. Sometimes it's just the mood I'm in at the time. I've thought things really funny upon viewing and then on re-watch, not so much...and vice versa.

I didn't mean to imply that Jared couldn't be funny, I just don't think the humor comes as naturally to him as it does to Jensen. And considering how shy I think Jensen is in real life, it makes sense that he would be more comfortable hiding behind the clown persona. Jared seems perfectly comfortable in front of crowds, and has no problem showing emotion. I think the cons, and probably Jared himself, have helped Jensen find a comfort level.

AwesomO4000 · April 16, 2016

And Sam's sense of self worth is really only threatened when he feels that Dean isn't completely filling the role of being his No. 1 fan. That's why Sam seems very happy to me this season. Dean is back in that place that makes Sam feel most happy and comfortable as a hunter, while Dean is still just going through the motions of being "happy" to me because he is again just seeing himself simply as an extension of Sam and what he can do for Sam as per the prime directive handed down to him by Daddy Dearest all those years ago.

I think Sam is generally happier this season, because he has finally figured out what he wants with his life - as he explained to Charlie at the end of season 10 - and has made peace with it of sorts. I personally don't think he needs to have Dean as his number one fan to feel like he has self worth either. I thought that season 7 showed that pretty well. Sam actually wanted Dean to be about Dean. Sam had made peace with his own situation, which is when I think Sam is most "happy." In my opinion, it didn't have anything to do with Dean being his number one fan, because Dean's number one priority was killing Dick Roman and his other concern was his grief concerning Castiel and Bobby. For me, Sam was more about Dean than he had been in the past since season 3 and parts of season 5 - another time when he made peace with his own situation. I think Sam is most conflicted when he's fighting against his situation - like in season 2 when he was conflicted about his powers and worried he'd turn evil or in season 4 when he was trying to force his powers to do something good even when everyone told him they wouldn't, and he wasn't accepting what everyone was saying.

As for Dean, I don't think he's out of sorts this season because he's thinking of himself as an extension of Sam. I actually don't think it has much to do with Sam at all. I think Dean is out of sorts because of Amara. He doesn't like that when he's with her he feels like he doesn't have complete control over his thoughts and actions. Dean actually has more control than he perceives - such as when he did try to stab her and was just unsuccessful - but he doesn't see it that way. My thought is that this might partially be because of Dean's time in hell. He had two very different experiences: total helplessness and total control. So I think for him, his experiences with Amara leave him feeling like he doesn't have control, because of how powerful she is and that he can't always act as he wants to around her. In other words, he doesn't feel he has complete control over his actions and thoughts and for him this is like not having control. And Dean blames himself. It doesn't matter if Sam tells him that it isn't his fault, because he himself doesn't believe it yet.

I think that something may happen in the finale that will show Dean that he is wrong about it being his fault. This could happen a few different ways. Either Dean will overcome his guilt and fears about control to come through in the end, showing Dean that he can do it even when he's not in total control. Or he will learn that everything doesn't always have to depend on him having complete control of the situation, that someone - Castiel, Sam, etc. can come through sometimes and help him. Either way, maybe something will finally let Dean know that it doesn't all rest on his shoulders to always be in control and fix everything. This show has shown before that this kind of feeling can lead to bad things happening - as with Sam in season 4 thinking he had to do it all on his own and ending up freeing Lucifer.

Aeryn13 · April 16, 2016

Other than Robbie Thompson pretty much coming right out and worshipping Charlie in interviews, I don`t think any of the writers per se have come out and stated their preference. It was Jensen and Jared during a convention, one of the early ones, maybe around Seasons 3 or 4 that said that Gamble thinks Sam is hers and Edlund thinks Dean is his. And they very clearly stated it in those exact terms.

At that time, I think that held true for Edlund. But he later gave up on Dean and switched to Cas. Back in Season 1 Gamble was involved in a couple good Dean-episodes but that was with Raelle Tucker who I believe was the Dean-fan after all.

I fully believed Gamble was a Sam-girl because by the time Season 6 rolled around, I found the entire portrayal of soulless!Sam to be like Stephanie Meyer and the "do me" fantasy that was Edward Cullen. The prostitute who forgot to get money because he is just such a sex God was basically the final nail for me. And then the kinky sex flashbacks. Give me a break. In the Gamble-penned episode where Lisa is possessed on the other hand, we have the tired old "lousy lay" insult to Dean in comparism.

And yes, I know Gamble wrote the Lisa introduction episode in Season 3 where she remarked on the great night they`d had previously. Or Lilith calling Dean really cute. But IMO that was a progression between Season 3 and 6 for Gamble. Her feelings towards the Dean-character and Jensen the actor seemed to cool considerably in that time whereas her devotion to Sam grew.

The Becky character was modeled after an actual real life fangirl but there were and are several people in the writing room who shouln`t call the kettle black on that front..

Or he will learn that everything doesn't always have to depend on him having complete control of the situation, that someone - Castiel, Sam, etc. can come through sometimes and help him. Either way, maybe something will finally let Dean know that it doesn't all rest on his shoulders to always be in control and fix everything.

But he already learned in 5.22 how to be a good little cape-holder and to kneel back and let the more important and bigger/better, true hero save the day. Or during the trials, he learned how to be a good nurse and butler and nothing else.

I don`t see how being a bystander to the heroics of others helps a person with their self worth and learning that they, too, are important. It would teach any person quite the opposite.

This show has shown before that this kind of feeling can lead to bad things happening - as with Sam in season 4 thinking he had to do it all on his own and ending up freeing Lucifer.

And in Season 5 they did the opposite in the end. Death told Dean that Sam was the only one and to stand back. Ditto for Bobby. And so he did, he fell into place like a good follower. Then Sam was the only one and saved the world all by himself (okay, he had his childhood toy to help). Lucifer this year even commented on the time the great Sam Winchester once defeated him by sheer power of will.

So, when Sam is feeling like the Chosen One, it`s not always a bad thing. As long as he is properly acknowledged as such by the unwashed masses, back then being Dean, Bobby and Cas, he saves the world.

But Dean needs to learn to stand back and be even less important and be okay with that?

Edited April 16, 2016 by Aeryn13

Myrelle · April 16, 2016

I don't think that Dean feels like he has control of anything in his life at this point-not even himself. All he's done this season is react to what others are doing and have done, so I'm really, REALLY! hoping that we're not going down that road again and that he's not going to have to be "taught" that he needs to relinquish control to someone else again. That was the lesson for him in S5 and I'd rather not see just a complete redux of that finale this year-which is what that would be, IMO, if Dean isn't allowed to take back control of his own life. I have no doubt that Sam will get the big heroics again, but hopefully Dean will not just be reacting to whatever Sam is doing again. Hopefully, Dean's importance in this storyline will be more about Dean, himself, and what Dean, and only Dean, is able to do where it concerns Amara and less about Sam's part in this storyline and what Sam is able to do. I'm not in the least bit interested in Dean having to learn(yet again) that he is overly controlling. Been there. Done that. Don't want the t-shirt.

catrox14 · April 16, 2016

also think Jensen treats Dean "dumber" than the writers do. LIke in The Vessel, the "who?"after Jules Verne was an ad lib. While I'm tempted to PSY 101 him on this, I'll just leave the observation that Jensen has no problem with being goofy on camera.

It's true that Jensen thinks no joke is too cheap but I sure AF don't believe that Jensen thinks or treats Dean dumber than the writers do. I'm not trying to be argumentative or change your mind. My mind is just blown.

Far more of the idiotic things Dean does comes from the script than Jensen. I like to think that Jensen is like, you know what 'Fuck it" I'm going big on purpose. If they really want dumb!Dean, I'll give them really dumb Dean. If they want dog!Dean...I'll given them the best damn dog they ever got.

Even if Jensen ad-libs things that make Dean look dumb or gross because he's trying to be funny or whatever, the editor, director and writer have allowed it to stand so it's endorsed by the show too.

Who knows, maybe after the demon!Dean let down and the Amara thing going NOWHERE thus far this season, he's just given up and he's doing bits for a demo reel for a comedy deal after SPN. LOL

catrox14 · April 16, 2016

I think Sam is generally happier this season, because he has finally figured out what he wants with his life - as he explained to Charlie at the end of season 10 - and has made peace with it of sorts. I personally don't think he needs to have Dean as his number one fan to feel like he has self worth either. I thought that season 7 showed that pretty well. Sam actually wanted Dean to be about Dean.

And that is all undone in s8 like it or not. Sam was so upset at the end of s8 that he was willing to die because Dean had two other friends or because he felt he had let Dean down to the point where Dean HAD to have other friends because Sam wasn't there for him. Either way, Dean was made to feel guilty for having those friends IMO.

Then we get back around to Sam being happier because he's accepted that hunting is his life but also Dean has no other friends anymore. Charlie is dead, Cas is barely around yet AGAIN. Crowley is not a friend. Jody, Donna, Claire and Alex are both of their friends. Sam is Dean's priority again. He's willing to die because Sam died...and IF that was because Sam has to save the World, I don't think they sold that aspect very well. Maybe Dean is drifting back towards Sam because he has no friends anymore besides Cas who is ally for both Sam and Dean.

SueB · April 16, 2016

It's true that Jensen thinks no joke is too cheap but I sure AF don't believe that Jensen thinks or treats Dean dumber than the writers do. I'm not trying to be argumentative or change your mind. My mind is just blown.

Far more of the idiotic things Dean does comes from the script than Jensen. I like to think that Jensen is like, you know what 'Fuck it" I'm going big on purpose. If they really want dumb!Dean, I'll give them really dumb Dean. If they want dog!Dean...I'll given them the best damn dog they ever got.

Even if Jensen ad-libs things that make Dean look dumb or gross because he's trying to be funny or whatever, the editor, director and writer have allowed it to stand so it's endorsed by the show too.

Who knows, maybe after the demon!Dean let down and the Amara thing going NOWHERE thus far this season, he's just given up and he's doing bits for a demo reel for a comedy deal after SPN. LOL

I didn't mean to imply Jensen doesn't LOVE Dean. He loves Dean and is very very protective of him. And protective of Jared/Sam. But I think he has more of a problem if Dean does something stupid (like not answering the phone) than if he looks uneducated (like the Jules Verne bit). So.. 'dumb' is the wrong word here. I think he treats Dean as 'best hunter on the planet' but also more rough around the edges than Sam.

AwesomO4000 · April 17, 2016

And that is all undone in s8 like it or not. Sam was so upset at the end of s8 that he was willing to die because Dean had two other friends or because he felt he had let Dean down to the point where Dean HAD to have other friends because Sam wasn't there for him. Either way, Dean was made to feel guilty for having those friends IMO.

I agree about season 8 - I really, really dislike that season - except I tended to interpret Sam's point as being trust more than friends, but old argument and tomato - tomahto pretty much anyway. My main point in giving the season 7 example was to dispute the statement that Sam is only happy when Dean is all about him. For me, Sam seems to be happiest when he's at peace with his choices and his situation as he was in season 7, and in that case, it didn't have to do with his being Dean's priority. It didn't even have to be all hunky-dory (which it wasn't for Sam in season 7). I don't think it's the case this season either that Sam is happy due to being Dean's number one priority. I think it's his being at peace with wanting to be a hunter.

I don`t see how being a bystander to the heroics of others helps a person with their self worth and learning that they, too, are important.

I didn't say that Dean should be a bystander. I said that he would hopefully be part of a group effort. Or that he would discover that he actually can defeat Amara. I think either could work.

Then Sam was the only one and saved the world all by himself

Since I disagree with this, I don't think it is the same thing. I think that Sam could not have done it without the help of everyone who was there, including Dean. So we'll have to agree to disagree.

Lucifer this year even commented on the time the great Sam Winchester once defeated him by sheer power of will.

Considering what Lucifer was trying to do, I took everything he said with a huge grain of salt. Everything Lucifer said to and showed Sam was designed to manipulate Sam into saying "yes." Of course he was going to build Sam up - with the manipulation being that Sam was too much of a wimp now to say "yes," again. In other words "look how brave you were back then, too bad you're such a loser now. Wouldn't you want to be like you were back then again?" None of it was really sincere however. I didn't even find Lucifer's tone to be sincere when he said it, but it was especially obvious to me as soon as Sam said "no" and Lucifer started in with the beating. But again miles vary.

mertensia · April 17, 2016

Jensen is great at the comedy stuff, so I think that's why he gets most of it. But I do agree that sometimes they go overboard. I didn't care for some scenes this year involving the spitting of food, etc. I thought that was out of character for him, especially in his own kitchen. This may be an unpopular opinion, but I thought the cat scene in Yellow Fever was over the top.

I think they're actually both quite gifted at comedy; Jared's timing is good and he never fails to make me laugh in The French Mistake (nobody says penultimate!) and in Changing Channels.

Jensen is great at the comedy stuff, so I think that's why he gets most of it. But I do agree that sometimes they go overboard. I didn't care for some scenes this year involving the spitting of food, etc. I thought that was out of character for him, especially in his own kitchen. This may be an unpopular opinion, but I thought the cat scene in Yellow Fever was over the top.

I think they're actually both quite gifted at comedy; Jared's timing is good and he never fails to make me laugh in The French Mistake (nobody says penultimate!) and in Changing Channels.

Aeryn13 · April 17, 2016

I didn't say that Dean should be a bystander. I said that he would hopefully be part of a group effort. Or that he would discover that he actually can defeat Amara. I think either could work.

But you see 5.22 as a "group effort" and I don`t. So, if it happened just like this again, it would be being a bystander for me. A million times.

And such a scene already happened and Dean didn`t get any warm, fuzzy self worth feelings from it. Which doesn`t surprise me because in his place, I would feel like an unimportant, useless non-player too. Since that is exactly how I see the scene. How would a step-by-step repeat chance anything?

For me, if he could see that he isn`t weak and useless against Amara, HIM and not someone else, that would be the only thing that could make a difference. IMO people tend to feel good for their own accomplishments, not proxy stuff.

shang yiet · April 17, 2016

Since Sam is to be blamed for releasing Amara (just like he did with Lucifer) I hope Sam won't be useless either. He needs to deal with her since he released her in the first place. Amara is his responsibility,

And I always thought Dean was keen to have Sam as his No.1 fan.

Edited April 17, 2016 by shang yiet

catrox14 · April 17, 2016

And I always thought Dean was keen to have Sam as his No.1 fan

I'm curious what you've seen in their relationship that leads you to that conclusion. Not arguing just legit curious because I have never seen that viewpoint before.

MysteryGuest · April 17, 2016

I don't think Dean's having "self worth" issues as much as I think he's just afraid that when push comes to shove, he won't be able to strike the killing blow against Amara because of his bond with her...whatever the hell that is. But I think that's just the writers' way of adding a bit of drama to the storyline, and when the time comes, Dean will be right in there with Sam, doing what needs to be done. He might think he can let Sam do it alone, but I don't think he'll be able to.

The whole theme this season has been them working together, talking things out, telling their secrets. I have every reason to believe that the season will end the same way.

Aeryn13 · April 17, 2016

The whole theme this season has been them working together,

We just recently had the super!Sam episode where he jumped up from his deathbed and saved himself AND Dean. (Co)-written by the same writer who wrote the Finale. So why wouldn`t that be the template for the ending?

MysteryGuest · April 17, 2016

Both Sam and Dean defied reality in that episode...that's just bad writing. Sam didn't really have to fight anyone, he just had to lay in wait and stab them. Dean was concussed, had broken ribs and was brought back from the dead after his OD, and he wasn't much worse for wear in the end, either. I pray the finale will have better writing than that.

catrox14 · April 17, 2016

My UO is I do want the MoC to show up again with Dean. I posed a bunch of questions in the spoiler thread but I'll briefly mention it here, no spoilers.

I need answers as to why Dean had to go through that torment for 2 years and be turned into a demon.

I know I've said that much of the Mark removal has been redemption for Sam and I do still think, BUT I haven't forgotten that Dean killed 20 + human beings. Disgusting horrible criminals as they may have been Dean still killed them and the show made point that it was a horrible act and we were to be horrified based on Sam and Cas' reactions.

Sam's Hero Journey ended up with Sam in the Pit, saving the world. There was failure and redemption for Sam and we had closure on that part of his Hero's Journey.

I've been fearful that it will end up back with Sam but this MoC has been with Dean, affected Dean, caused Dean to murder and be turned into a demon.

I WANT to believe that this has been Dean's Hero Journey. And assuming that it is, I won't be satisfied with Dean not getting his own Hero's Redemption moment, whether that means he kills Amara, or locks her away again, or if others help him do it...I will be bitterly disappointed if Dean does not get a redemptive moment for the things he did.

AwesomO4000 · April 17, 2016

I'm curious what you've seen in their relationship that leads you to that conclusion. Not arguing just legit curious because I have never seen that viewpoint before.

I've had that viewpoint a couple of times myself at certain times throughout the series (though it's been a little while since I've expressed it on a board.) I can't speak for shang yiet, but for me, it generally comes mostly from "Dark Side of the Moon" and my mood while viewing it. Dean's favorite memory we saw was from a time when Sam was younger and saw Dean as his hero, and Dean seemed to be affronted at Sam's shown memories where Dean wasn't in them and Sam was often seeking independence to be his own person. Dean seemed to think that Sam leaving was a reflection on him and an affront to him rather than Sam trying to find his own independence and be his own person. It seemed a bit "you mean I wasn't always the most important thing in your life at all times? How could you?" * Also episodes like "Swap Meat" and "Sex and Violence" sometimes seemed to give off a similar vibe - that Dean would be happier if only Sam liked the same things Dean did, always agreed with him, and always looked up to him. When Dean says stuff joking like "I'm the oldest, so that means I'm always right," and such things, he seems to want that kind of thing also. And when Dean does get that kind of thing from Sam - such as when he proposes one of his "go in guns blazing" plans and Sam says "you got it" - it seems to make him happy and more confident.

So in general do I see this as an overall or all time thing? No, but at times I do see that kind of thing, just as at times - such as in season 8 - I see Sam wanting validation from Dean. It seems about equal to me actually. Weirdly though for Sam, it almost seems to be desperate when he wants/needs it, as in that season 8 finale or when he seems almost desperate for Dean to trust him even if it's too soon for Dean to do so. With Dean it seems to be more of a big brother thing, since he seems to remember that time in their life of Sam, the adoring brother, more fondly - complete with rose-colored glasses - than he thinks of the times now when they are more partners. Sam - weirdly - seems to be happier now, despite all of the bad that has happened to them instead of back when he was a sometimes a "lonely kid." Most telling for me was the end of "What Is..." because Sam's "Well, I'm glad we are." seemed a small thing, but was actually a pretty big statement considering what Sam had lost along the way to having that relationship with Dean again.

* I think that it didn't help that in season 5, the overall tone seemed to be that Sam seemed happier and more grateful to hunt with Dean, while Dean seemed like he felt trapped. That somewhat emphasized Dean's dissatisfaction with current Sam vs fond memories of Dean-worshiping, young Sam.

Edited April 17, 2016 by AwesomO4000

Aeryn13 · April 17, 2016

I think when Sam finds something or someone "better" or more appealing, he doesn`t much care how Dean lives his life or with whom but when there is no such thing around, Dean has to be there and in his place. During the College years, it was kind of like "Schroedinger`s Dean and John". They could be lying dead in a ditch somewhere or they could be fine and hunting.

Meanwhile Dean should be about Sam at all times IMO according to the narrative. Sure, he is still wrong and clingy and overbearing when he does it but at the same time it apparently should be his purpose. I think the writers by and large view the character first and foremost as "Sam`s brother". Whereas they view Sam as "Sam". Note the difference. One is an individual, the other is an extension of said individual. This is also how they approach telling stories for either.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Aeryn13

catrox14 · April 17, 2016

I've had that viewpoint a couple of times myself at certain times throughout the series (though it's been a little while since I've expressed it on a board.) I can't speak for shang yiet, but for me, it generally comes mostly from "Dark Side of the Moon" and my mood while viewing it. Dean's favorite memory we saw was from a time when Sam was younger and saw Dean as his hero, and Dean seemed to be affronted at Sam's shown memories where Dean wasn't in them and Sam was often seeking independence to be his own person. Dean seemed to think that Sam leaving was a reflection on him and an affront to him rather than Sam trying to find his own independence and be his own person. It seemed a bit "you mean I wasn't always the most important thing in your life at all times? How could you?" * Also episodes like "Swap Meat" and "Sex and Violence" sometimes seemed to give off a similar vibe - that Dean would be happier if only Sam liked the same things Dean did, always agreed with him, and always looked up to him. When Dean says stuff joking like "I'm the oldest, so that means I'm always right," and such things, he seems to want that kind of thing also. And when Dean does get that kind of thing from Sam - such as when he proposes one of his "go in guns blazing" plans and Sam says "you got it" - it seems to make him happy and more confident.

So in general do I see this as an overall or all time thing? No, but at times I do see that kind of thing, just as at times - such as in season 8 - I see Sam wanting validation from Dean. It seems about equal to me actually. Weirdly though for Sam, it almost seems to be desperate when he wants/needs it, as in that season 8 finale or when he seems almost desperate for Dean to trust him even if it's too soon for Dean to do so. With Dean it seems to be more of a big brother thing, since he seems to remember that time in their life of Sam, the adoring brother, more fondly - complete with rose-colored glasses - than he thinks of the times now when they are more partners. Sam - weirdly - seems to be happier now, despite all of the bad that has happened to them instead of back when he was a sometimes a "lonely kid." Most telling for me was the end of "What Is..." because Sam's "Well, I'm glad we are." seemed a small thing, but was actually a pretty big statement considering what Sam had lost along the way to having that relationship with Dean again.

* I think that it didn't help that in season 5, the overall tone seemed to be that Sam seemed happier and more grateful to hunt with Dean, while Dean seemed like he felt trapped. That somewhat emphasized Dean's dissatisfaction with current Sam vs fond memories of Dean-worshiping, young Sam.

Oh that's interesting to me.

I always took the fireworks scene to be that Dean was remembering a time when he was able to make Sam happy by giving him a normal childhood moment that John never allowed them to have and that Sam appreciated it and loved him for it. I mean there is nothing wrong with wanting to be loved and appreciated.

I took Dean being upset with Sam's memories was more that Dean felt rejected, unloved and abandoned by Sam vs no longer being the object of Sam's worship.

Edited April 17, 2016 by catrox14

AwesomO4000 · April 17, 2016

Oh that's interesting to me.

I always took the fireworks scene to be that Dean was remembering a time when he was able to make Sam happy by giving him a normal childhood moment that John never allowed them to have and that Sam appreciated it and loved him for it. I mean there is nothing wrong with wanting to be loved and appreciated.

I took Dean being upset with Sam's memories was more that Dean felt rejected, unloved and abandoned by Sam vs no longer being the object of Sam's worship.

Oh, definitely not. And as I said, it sometimes depends on my mood while watching the episode. I don't always get that vibe, but I can see it there and I can see how someone might interpret it that way.

Warning: long explanation of my thought process ahead. Proceed with caution. But as for Dean feeling rejected and unloved (and this will intertwine with the above thing, too), the weird part for me was that Dean was putting so much stock in what he was seeing in the memories and not in what was happening right then. Sometimes (as I said depending on my mood), I watch the episode and I wonder why would it even matter if Sam did feel like Dean is thinking he did when he left home - especially when he was a kid running away? Even if that was one of the best times of Sam's life - having a dog, eating pizza, living the 'dream' of being on his own. Or even the momentary excitement of being out from under John's thumb with a potential whole new future ahead of him. So what? Why did that or would that change how Sam felt right then in the present? And my answer to myself is that it wouldn't.

It's like the ending of "What Is..." that I mentioned above. Was Sam happy when he was with Jessica? Sure he was, but as he told Dean in that episode, he wouldn't trade that happy dream future Dean described for what they had now. So Dean seemed to be looking at his own memory where Sam was happy just to be Dean's little brother and weighing that more heavily than Sam now. Dean didn't seem to be happy at all with Sam telling him that they would do it together and that they could still win as a team. And even though Sam had been trying to show Dean that he was sorry and the he loved him throughout the season - he even told Dean he loved him (which when do they ever say that directly?) in "Sam, Interrupted." Sure he was heavily drugged, but he still meant it. And he told Dean that he loved him even if Dean might be a little crazy... in other words unconditionally - that didn't seem to matter to Dean... Because Dean threw the amulet away, basically saying he wasn't putting any weight to Sam's feelings now or throughout season 5 (or in season 3 when the amulet gained even more meaning for Sam - enough that Sam wore it after Dean's death,) but only in what he saw from Sam's memories from the past, and if Sam wasn't really as happy as Dean had thought he was being Dean's little brother, then that mattered more than how Sam felt now. Little brother Sam's memories were more important, and since they weren't what Dean thought from what he interpreted, screw what Sam now thought. You didn't find me the best brother ever, well then this amulet (no matter what it means now) is worthless to me... Is that what Dean meant? No, but I could see it being taken that way.

I get that Dean was upset, but I also sympathized with Sam there. I had some not so nice thoughts about family members when I was a kid and a teenager, and I wouldn't want to be judged on them now. And it doesn't reflect how I feel now. So I felt awful for Sam seeing Dean put less weight in his feelings now and judge him on how he'd thought and felt at certain times as a teenager, especially in retrospect when we've seen that the very best memories aren't always the first ones relived in heaven - as with Bobby, whose best memory was his last one.

So based on that, that's how I got a little bit of a vibe that Dean preferred it when Sam looked at him as his number one fan, because that seemed to be the thing that Dean was giving the most weight to in that episode. And previously in that season we'd had "Swap Meat" which yes, bad, bad episode, and out of character in my opinion that Dean wouldn't figure out that it wasn't Sam, but still ouch. Is current Sam that much of an annoyance to Dean that he would seem to prefer this newer model? (and that the narrative would support this is even worse, in my opinion. * Don't get me started on this episode.) Or even worse, not even notice that it wasn't Sam? So that didn't help, I guess. It set the mood that Dean was pining for a different Sam... more like he was when he was younger. So when "Dark Side..." came along, that didn't help.

Now all that said, as I said above, I don't think that is always or even mostly how Dean feels, but every once in a while, I do see something that makes me wonder - usually in those episodes I mentioned. Hopefully that made my thoughts a little more clear rather than even more muddled.

* (I don't like Julie Siege's portrayal of Sam or her usual narrative voice about him very much. Many of her episodes either paint Sam as an annoyance, as grim and pissy, and/or sometimes gives him a muddled point of view, including even the one episode of hers that I did like. She'll give Sam something good in terms of point of view or something, and then wham, have him do something crappy or pissy in the next moment to bring the character down. Weirdly though, in the one episode that I'm neutral on, she did write one of my most favorite one off characters of the series who interacted with Sam in the episode.)

SueB · April 17, 2016

I found both Dark Side of the Moon and The Purge to be very painful. In both cases I could see Sam's POV (one where he just wanted to have a normal life and the other where he's so pissed he's saying hurtful things). But for me, the root of Dean's pain is his abandonment issues. I'm not a psychiatrist but I am aware that 'abandonment' is one of the deeper rooted issues that can have some irrational responses driven by subconscious feelings.

In both these episodes I felt Dean was hearing 'Sam doesn't love me. Not like I love him.' Substitute the word 'need' for 'love' and you have almost a direct quote from YED. And I believe that the truth is YED was right, which is why when the issue comes up, Dean responds poorly. The cold hard truth is that Dean was more emotionally invested in his family than either John or Sam. Sam even said in 'Dark Side Of The Moon' that family didn't mean the same thing to him. THAT DOESNT MAKE SAM BAD OR UNKIND. Honestly, it makes Sam more well-adjusted IMO. He could separate himself from his family and have his own goals. It also DOESN'T make Dean pathetic. They had different early childhood experiences and both had trauma but it was different. John may have abandoned Sam but between Dean usually overcompensating and John being John, it manifests differently for Sam than Dean.

So when those two episodes happened, both IMO went to a primal wound in Dean. The events were amplified, they echoed back to his number one issue, and he lashed out and then shit down. Dean 101.

But that doesn't mean that I think the notion that Dean gets some joy out of Sam adoratiion is wrong. I think he does. Goes back to the same primal issue and acts as a counter to it.

One big factor in S5 was Dean's unwillingness to listen to 'tell' versus 'show'. The memories were outside of Sam's control so Dean took those as unvarnished truth. Whatever Sam said was still tainted by Dean's trust issues in S5.

Now this is the bitterness thread and I'm not trying to disused anyone's opinion. I think there are so many ways to interpret those events. But I felt the topic of childhood abandonment trauma was a worthy contribution so aim offering that as a possible rationale.

Edited April 17, 2016 by SueB

catrox14 · April 17, 2016

So based on that, that's how I got a little bit of a vibe that Dean preferred it when Sam looked at him as his number one fan, because that seemed to be the thing that Dean was giving the most weight to in that episode.

I guess I just don't see where Dean needing Sam to be a fanboy comes from. I'm not trying to be dense. I'm just not really getting where in the show Sam ever really fanboy'd over Dean other than in that particular memory.

So based on that, that's how I got a little bit of a vibe that Dean preferred it when Sam looked at him as his number one fan, because that seemed to be the thing that Dean was giving the most weight to in that episode. And previously in that season we'd had "Swap Meat" which yes, bad, bad episode, and out of character in my opinion that Dean wouldn't figure out that it wasn't Sam, but still ouch. Is current Sam that much of an annoyance to Dean that he would seem to prefer this newer model? (and that the narrative would support this is even worse, in my opinion. * Don't get me started on this episode.) Or even worse, not even notice that it wasn't Sam? So that didn't help, I guess. It set the mood that Dean was pining for a different Sam... more like he was when he was younger. So when "Dark Side..." came along, that didn't help.

Oh wow. Yeah. Totally different perspective.

I never factored Swap Meat into things because it was such terrible episode that made no sense and didn't really have any bearing IMO on the season at all not that I remember but i"m probably forgetting something. I thought Dean not pinging it was Sam was just shitty writing to extend the mystery.

Two of Sam's happy memories caused Dean misery on many levels. I think that was the issue more than Dean losing a fanboy. It seems like Sam did not face a consequence for running away at 12, but Dean had to deal with the Wrath of John. I mean we saw the fear on Dean's face when that memory came flooding back.

I can't help but think if Sam had prepared Dean for his departure to college, Dean would have been better prepared to deal with with John's wrath and emotional fallout but Dean was blindsided. I didn't see that as Dean being upset that Sam was trying to better his life but that Dean was once again left to deal with John. Dean could have left John but let's be real that wasn't going to happen. Too much emotional attachment, no other way of life, etc etc. Sam had the consequence of John alienating him because he left and Dean was stuck in the middle.

Dean apologized for being upset with Sam back then in s1, but then to learn that the worst night of Dean's life was the best night of Sam's was a blow. It never occurred to me that it was ever about Dean's ego as a big brother but just a crapton of anger and resentment.

I'm not quite following why Dean being upset over Sam's memories is indicative of him ignoring what was happening in the present.

Dean just suffered major trauma watching Sam be murdered in front of him and then he's murdered. He finds himself in Heaven and trying to avoid being caught by Zachariah. and find God. It's not like Dean was expecting to watch Sam guts blown to bits that day. Nor did he kill himself to get to Heaven to find God.

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