Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[DittyDotDot]

The in-show response to the whole Dean/Castiel thing was just mishandled. Yes, some responses to the pairing were overzealous to say the least. But so what? They had good scenes that viewers apparently liked. Who cares if they saw more in those scenes as long as the scenes were well-received? Nope, we had to have the gay panic again where the characters suddenly don`t have screentime anymore but every once in a blue moon they get a big slashy scene where the characters act like they were still the same close friends they were initially played as. Only now those scenes look grotesque.

 

See, I don't think it was gay panic at all. Early in S9, there was some of twitter bullying of the writers--some people wanted Destiel to be written as canon and others were adamant they'd quite the show in that case. IMO, it wasn't because the writers were scared of going gay that got Cass sent to storyline Siberia, but instead was an over-reaction by TPTB to stop the discussion altogether because no matter what they did--made it canon or not--someone was bound to be pissed.

 

That's why I say they need to tell their story and let the chips fall where they may. No matter what they do, someone will be shouting from the rooftops about something. Trying to contain the madness only results in more madness, IMO.

[Aeryn13]

 

If Cas were in a female vessel, would the resistance from TPTB be the same?

 

So, to speak Cas was in a female vessel (not little!Claire) because Castiel himself was supposed to be killed off during episode 9 in Season 4. But the character became so popular, they quickly changed it. Likewise Ruby was supposed to hop vessels but, well, the actress obviously had an admirer on set.

 

But there actually was supposed to be an angel that stayed around and have all the Dean-y goodness interaction Cas later had. That was Anna. And they boinked right away. I`d say that answers the question.

 

It`s the same reason the Amara connection gets played as desire/whatnot. Or at least that`s the label the writers slap on it. If she was in a male form, it would be like a zombie-like obedience spell he had on Dean.  

[NoWillToResist]

Okay, now I'm curious -- the CW dude making a Destiel comment? Link, puh-leeze?

 

That is a tall order since it was quite some time ago. :)  I'll try to find it but he said something along the lines of 'I'd support having a gay character if it served the story" to which people replied "what the actual fuck? Why does a person's sexual orientation have to support a story? Why can't they just be gay/bi/whatever?"

 

The message it conveyed was "deviating from heterosexuality is only ok if there is a good reason to do so"...which....yeah, didn't resonate so well. :)  I believe he deleted his account shortly thereafter since he got BLASTED for his comments...

 

...

 

Found a reference! Sorry, he was a WB exec, not CW.

 

The comment that seemed to set people off was "“f it served the story, I would support it”.

 

Many people understandably questioned how the random heterosexual encounters the show includes "serve the story". Of particular note was the much maligned 9x03, where Cas sleeps with the Reaper-possessed April. Why did he need to sleep with her? It served no story function. Nothing would have changed to the story had he slept on the couch...

Edited March 9, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[Demented Daisy]

What drives me absolutely bonkers is the legion of shippers who demand that they be acknowledged.  You wanna ship?  Ship.  But no one -- no one! -- associated with the show is under any obligation to address you.  You deserve no more special treatment that anyone who watches the show.

 

You spend money?  Your choice.  You blog?  Your choice.  You write fan fiction?  Your choice.  

 

If the writing does not go the way you want it to, it is not a personal insult to you.  If TPTB or the actors say something negative about the ship, it is not a personal insult to you.

 

Sheesh.

[ahrtee]

Well, Charlie's sexuality sort of served the story, because it kept her from becoming a potential love-interest to either Winchester, and "allowed" her to be the little sister without any UST. 

 

I do agree that Cas sleeping with April was unnecessary (and stupid!)...but I think it was supposed to show Cas discovering his sexuality (which, I'm guessing, was based on observing the Winchesters...and Casa Erotica.)  It would have been interesting to watch Cas then experiment with other forms of sexuality, since I imagine an angel wouldn't have any "orientation" at all; they can, after all, inhabit whatever vessels they choose (Raphael has been both male and female...)  

 

But it would upset me to watch a character whose sexuality has been firmly established one way suddenly change, just to satisfy one group (imagine if Charlie had suddenly started lusting after Dean...)  

 

 

[NoWillToResist]

What drives me absolutely bonkers is the legion of shippers who demand that they be acknowledged.  You wanna ship?  Ship.  But no one -- no one! -- associated with the show is under any obligation to address you.  You deserve no more special treatment that anyone who watches the show.

 

You spend money?  Your choice.  You blog?  Your choice.  You write fan fiction?  Your choice.  

 

If the writing does not go the way you want it to, it is not a personal insult to you.  If TPTB or the actors say something negative about the ship, it is not a personal insult to you.

 

Sheesh.

 

I get upset seeing fans be awful to other fans just because of their shipping choices. I see the same thing with The Walking Dead. It's even bled over into real life, with the Jared/Jensen fans vs the Jensen/Misha fans. It's fucking nuts.

 

Wincest squicks me out completely. I don't get it, but hey, I don't have to. Whatever; it's not my thing. I'm not going to their blogs and leaving nasty messages or harassing them. I read fanfic that features what I like and don't read the rest. I don't seek out ones which cover stuff I'm not into and leave negative feedback.Why do people do this? Ship what you ship and leave others to do the same. It's really not a complicated thing to grasp yet it seems to elude many fandoms.

 

I simply do not understand people who expend so much energy on seeking out what they don't like for the sole purpose of spreading hate and being assholes to each other. No one is right or wrong; people like what they like and should left to ship whom they want in peace with other like-minded souls.

 

I do agree that Cas sleeping with April was unnecessary (and stupid!)...but I think it was supposed to show Cas discovering his sexuality (which, I'm guessing, was based on observing the Winchesters...and Casa Erotica.)  It would have been interesting to watch Cas then experiment with other forms of sexuality, since I imagine an angel wouldn't have any "orientation" at all; they can, after all, inhabit whatever vessels they choose (Raphael has been both male and female...)  

 

But it would upset me to watch a character whose sexuality has been firmly established one way suddenly change, just to satisfy one group (imagine if Charlie had suddenly started lusting after Dean...)  

 

To your first point, yes, that would have been a wonderful opportunity to explore issues of sexuality. When Cas was God, he said he was utterly indifferent to sexual orientation, so an angel would have no hang ups or fears about non hetero behaviour. But instead, he's homeless and alone, and staring at boobs and fucks the first female he encounters. That it was essentially non-con was just the shit icing on the crap cake. And it was laughed at in-show.

 

To your latter point, I think this is why there seems to be some support for the "Dean is bi" argument because it doesn't negate anything that we've seen; it doesn't erase his prior encounters with women; it is very common for people to discover their sexuality later in life, particularly if one might have grown up in an environment where such proclivities would have caused one trouble...

[trxr4kids]

TPTB went overboard in S08 with Cas and Dean, and I guess the reaction made them abruptly rein the whole thing waaaay back. Pity. I enjoy Cas's interactions with Dean.

I don't recall much of what I refer to as that season* in a snotty Balthazar like voice in my mind but I've always blamed the Gamble seasons for much of it. In season 6 we had Cas immediately respond to Dean's prayer although he had ignored Sam for a year because as he said, they shared a more profound bond. In season 7 we had Dean telling Cas to get out of his ass and Meg saying he (Cas) was Dean's boyfriend first. That's just what I can recall off the top of my head since it's been awhile since I've seen either season. I find it really sad and telling that many fans main interest in Dean as a character is his sexuality ( perceived or otherwise)  or his capacity for sharing long soulful conversations with Sam. I think it emphasizes the long held bitterness by most Dean fans that all the show runners and writers have failed in developing any substantial storyline for Dean that actually goes anywhere or means anything. Apparently the most interesting thing about Dean is a single man tear. ETA I forgot his perky nipples....hangs head in shame.....

*I still cannot believe that Singer thinks that was their best season so far, I mean is he delusional, rhetorical question because clearly he is.

Edited March 9, 2016 by trxr4kids

[NoWillToResist]

I've always blamed the Gamble seasons for much of it. In season 6 we had Cas immediately respond to Dean's prayer although he had ignored Sam for a year because as he said, they shared a more profound bond. In season 7 we had Dean telling Cas to get out of his ass and Meg saying he (Cas) was Dean's boyfriend first. That's just what I can recall off the top of my head since it's been awhile since I've seen either season.

 

Oh God, the list of examples from older seasons is so very long, I couldn't hope to do it justice, but off the top of MY head (in addition to what you already stated). :)

 

- Cas: "I was getting too close to the humans in my charge...you." (intense stare at Dean) ;)

- Cas: "I would give anything not to have you do this." (when Dean was asked to torture Alistair)

- Dean: "Not for nuthing', Cas, but the last time someone looked at me like that, I got laid"

- Balthazar's "I think you have me confused with the other angel. You know the one in the dirty trenchcoat who's in love with you?"

- Dean making up a false memory of how Cas got left behind in Purgatory!! Failing to save him was somehow LESS painful than remembering that Cas chose to stay behind? (I still have trouble with this one)

- being told that Dean initially was scripted to say ILY to Cas in the crypt scene but they changed it to "I need you"

- being told that Misha was directed by Carver to act as a "jilted lover" in the Gas 'n' Sip episode

- Dean watching Cas from outside the Gas 'n' Sip while sappy music plays

 

Throw in the romantic tropes, parallel and/or identical dialogue/visuals with canon couples...and...yeah. :) Stuff like this makes me sympathetic to the fans who are all "but why would TPTB do this if it wasn't building to something?"

 

I seem to recall reading that at one of the cons or something, it was heavily implied by one of the writers (?)  that there was a divide of sorts in the writers' room, with some "pro-Destiel" and some very against. I think this is why we tend to get whiplash depending on who's writing the episode that week...

[DittyDotDot]

I don't recall much of what I refer to as that season* in a snotty Balthazar like voice in my mind but I've always blamed the Gamble seasons for much of it. In season 6 we had Cas immediately respond to Dean's prayer although he had ignored Sam for a year because as he said, they shared a more profound bond.

 

Just a little point of clarification, I believe Castiel ignored Sam's prayers for a year because Castiel was doing something he knew was wrong and didn't want to be found out, not because he really wanted to only talk to Dean. As I recall, he only responded to Dean's prayer because he wanted the weapons Balthazar stole from Heaven to help win his war in Heaven. Cass did say he and Dean shared a more profound bond in response to Sam's, "So you like him [Dean] more than me?" But as I recall Cass followed it up with a "You think I came because of you [Dean]? No, I came about the...(I don't remember, was it the Staff of Moses?)."

 

I just think people see what they want to see in these moments. Personally, I see a fairly naive angel who doesn't really understand humanity and sexuality sometimes putting his foot in his mouth, myself. Not that I don't think Cass loves Dean or vice-versa, but I don't think it has anything to do with sex, myself.

[NoWillToResist]

. Not that I don't think Cass loves Dean or vice-versa, but I don't think it has anything to do with sex, myself.

 

I haven't seen anything sexual between them either; I feel like their connection is more - heh - profound than that. Their caring/protectiveness means more to me if it's not due to "because I want to have sex with you." :)

 

I think Dean and Cas (and Sam) would be perfectly happy to just be together as a family, healthy and whole and unburdened with a Heaven/Hell crisis every hour.

 

But I can understand why some people clamour for a romantic slant to the pairing; I would just prefer that TPTB not try because I don't trust them not to fuck it up somehow. :D

 

I liked what they put forth in their meta episode - "you have your version and we have ours". I think that's the best we'll get. I only hope that the end of the show leaves on enough of an open note that I can write my own happy ending for the three of them....

[trxr4kids]

Ha, I forgot the Bert and Ernie comment Dean made before taking Cas to a brothel, so I guess I can't place blame solely on the Gamble years, I think the innuendos were just more often, ie every episode with Cas during that time. I don't think it's just a matter of people seeing what they want to see though. I personally don't ship anyone on any show and frankly I've quit watching many shows because they made a ship cannon and for me it ruined the show because the focus inevitably becomes about the ship and not why I started watching the show in the first place...I'm looking at you Bones. For me I don't care at all about Sam, Dean or Cas's love life, it's not why I watch the show, I watch it for the supernatural/ mystery/ crime drama aspect of it. So if even I, oblivious and uninterested as I am in shipping can see winks, nods, nudges and anvils to a ship, I have to blame TPTB, not just delusional fangirls/guys.

ETA: I guess my point is that TPTB have added significant fuel to a fire that granted would have been there anyway( because shippers, ship ), but they're as usual not handling it well. Wouldn't it make more sense to have Sam, Dean and Cas interact without all the blatant innuendo.

Edited March 9, 2016 by trxr4kids

[catrox14]

Fair warning for those who don't like Dean/Cas or "Destiel" or "shipping" discussion, I'm going to discuss it. And what the Dean/Cas relationship means to this viewer.

 

Background as an SPN viewer: I am a relative noob to the fandom(2013).  I didn't watch the whole series until like Nov 2013 to January 2013 on a netflix binge and my first actual real-time watching was s9 and my first Hellatus was after 9.23. HAHAHAHAHA , worst Hellatus EVER.  JFC.

 

I did not see a moment of SPN until 2012 and that was only part of one episode which was What's Up Tiger Mommy

 

Not a word of a lie, I remember the first scene I saw of SPN like it was yesterday. I think I remember it so vividly because I had just finished watching the very first episode of Arrow, which I was RIDICULOUSLY excited about and was soooo good.  I was over the moon and I guess my good mood just etched that whole evening in my mind with all the good brain chemicals. 

 

I was watching Arrow on DVR delay so when the episode ended, it went back to the the CW station that was airing live and literally dropped into Dean finding Cas by the river in Purgatory.

 

Imagine my confusion about the plot and the rest of the episode but what stuck with me besides how fucking beautiful the actors were, was what the heck was happening between the super hot guy with the battle axe and the guy with dirty trenchcoat ( and Captain Kelly)

 

Once I saw Dean and Cas hug, and the look on Dean's face, I immediately thought they were in a romantic relationship. Yes, men can hug and it not be romantic but my impression of that entire reunion scene was of two men reuniting who were in love with each other and had done everything to protect the other. There was no kiss but but everything else was romantic, IN MY OPINION. I did not think either was in love with the third guy.

My viewing experience was basically the following:

 

Me: Holy shit, who is this guy with the battle-axe. He's fucking beautiful! No but HOLY SHIT. He's more beautiful than Stephen Amell.. MY GODS. Wait, wait! That's Captain Kelly from BSG....sweet. I'm in

 

Me: Who is this guy by the river. Why is he wearing these weird pajamas. Oh it's a trenchcoat. He's a mess but handsome!

 

Me: Ok this is cool. It looks apocalyptic and grim. AWESOME! Reminds me of BSG with the music and desaturated filming. Sweet.

 

Me: Oh okay, beautiful axe-man, (BAM) and Trenchcoat Guy)(TG )  know each other and seem to be shocked to see each other.

But BAM is so relieved and happy and looks like he's ready to cry when he's hugging TG. He must really love this guy. I'll bet that is his boyfriend.

 

Me: Okay BAM you need to stop because your face is too much. OMG YOU ARE GORGEOUS.

 

Me: Wait, TG, why are you not hugging BAM back :(. He clearly loves you! And he's been looking for you! What gives?! :(

 

Me: Okay what are the names here again. OK so BAM is Dean and TG is Cass(like Mama Cass?) and Captain Kelly is Benny  a vampire. OHHHHKAY.... 

 

Me: Oh wait, so something really bad happened and these guys have been fighting some kind of war

 

Me: Wait, so Cass is an angel?? WTF? Okay..this is weird. Well,  I guess he could still be Dean's boyfriend in whatever world this is.

 

Me: Dean prayed to Cass every night! And he stayed to look for this guy for a year?  And wait, so the angel was luring the monsters from Dean and neither knew that was what the other one was doing?  Damn. That's beautiful and this must be quite a love story. I wonder how long they've been together?

 

Me: Okay so Captain Kelly the Vampire has a way out for all of them but it could kill them all. OH NO. But Dean doesn't care as long as he gets his boyfriend out. And Cass doesn't want to risk the danger.

 

Me: Wait, oh so this was flashback. Who is this long haired guy...But where is Dean's angel boyfriend?

 

Me: Who are these guys? What do they do? Why are they at some auction about souls and such? What the hell is happening here?

 

Me: Who is this jerk Crowley...he's awful. I don't like him. That poor Asian family is getting screwed.

 

Me: Why is the guy with long hair able to Thor's Hammer? Is he Thor?? LOL Weird. OH...that's Dean's brother.  Okay.

 

Me: Oh gosh, so Dean made it out but Cass didn't :(. Well shit, that's sad.

 

 

Then I never watched another episode until I binged it in 2013. I still didn't know when they met. Then when Castiel shows up in s4 on my first watch I was like....OH HELL YEAH. So given my first impression, and watching it all with my first impression in my mind...it's been both fun and frustrating to watch the relationship wax and wane over the years.  I don't think there will ever be any kind of on screen kiss, but I do think they are in love with each other and love each.   Obviously miles vary widely. JMHO.

Edited March 9, 2016 by catrox14

[amensisterfriend]

and I really liked S07.

 

Since this is the UO thread, I feel safe confessing here that I actually LOVE S7. It's by far my favorite post-S3 season. It may even be equal to S1-S3 for me for reasons I can't begin to justify :) I'm pretty sure I'm at a table for one on this one, but I love that we can vent here without judgment :)  

Edited March 9, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[Diane]

Since this is the UO thread, I feel safe confessing here that I actually LOVE S7. It's by far my favorite post-S3 season. It may even be equal to S1-S3 for me for reasons I can't begin to justify :) I'm pretty sure I'm at a table for one on this one, but I love that we can vent here without judgment :)  

You are not alone, I love it too.

[Demented Daisy]

IMO, Dean and Cas are not "in love".  I'm not sure Dean has ever been in love with anyone.  (Talk about an unpopular opinion!)

 

The only time Dean had a semi-meaningful relationship was when Sam was not around.  Family is everything to Dean and I think that, subconsciously, Dean knows that if it came down to it, he would choose family over love.  Cas is part of that family.

 

But mileage varies.

 

(Edited to fix poor grammar.)

Edited March 9, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[AwesomO4000]

Just a little point of clarification, I believe Castiel ignored Sam's prayers for a year because Castiel was doing something he knew was wrong and didn't want to be found out, not because he really wanted to only talk to Dean.

 

I agree, and I like the way it was all tied together at the end in "The Man Who Would Be King" when through flashbacks we learned that the flashing street light when Sam looked in on Dean at the end of season 5 was actually Castiel and not because of Sam having residual Lucifer influence. In Castiel's narrative, we learned that Castiel maybe had suspicions that something was wrong - because why would Sam just look so creepily through the window at Dean and then leave - but I think Cas had conflicted feelings about looking into it. He had other pressing matters and if he ignored it, maybe it would go away/magically fix itself/etc. But the moment he answered a prayer from Sam, if he learned something was wrong, there would be guilt, and he'd feel like he had to maybe fix it. But with ignorance, he could have an excuse for not fixing things.

 

Later in the season as it became more obvious something was really wrong and when he outright learned Sam was soulless, then came the cover up behavior. In fact to me, Castiel's argument against getting Sam's soul didn't make much sense to me until we learned that it was Cas who had tried to get Sam out, then the light bulb went off for me. Then all Castiel's strange behavior in that regard made sense - he was trying to cover up all of his lies, not only due to his guilt, but to keep Dean and Sam from the consequences until he could get it all to work out right in the end (he thought)... *sniff* our little angel was becoming a true Winchester. ; )

 

- Dean making up a false memory of how Cas got left behind in Purgatory!! Failing to save him was somehow LESS painful than remembering that Cas chose to stay behind? (I still have trouble with this one)

 

I agree. That whole thing was just so bizarre. I try to explain it away as Dean just having such low self-esteem and/or abandonment issues that he had to do this... but then that isn't any better, because at the same time they had Sam abandoning Kevin, so I was thinking "oh, shut up," to Dean's little drama/self-esteem issues where Dean had to downplay his heroic fight through purgatory to find Castiel, because he thought Castiel rejected him or something? What? More self esteem / abandonment issues - yay.

 

If I hadn't really, really disliked season 8 before that point, I would have then. Yeah I get it: Dean's a loyal Big Damn Hero, but he doesn't think/know he is. You don't have to hit me with an anvil, because now I'm just annoyed. And how many times have I seen this storyline.

 

*backs away slowly* Sorry - I should know better than to start down that path.

[catrox14]

To me Dean having a false memory that he failed to save Cas was hardcore Survivor's Guilt that accompanied Dean's PTSD.

 

Dean felt guilty for surviving when he thought Cas had died.  That is one thing that I never thought twice about. And IMO Dean's false memory wasn't so different from the actual fact of the situation.  It was a matter of who let go of whose hand.  Dean thought he dropped Cas' hand vs Cas pulling his hand away and pushing Dean into the portal.

 

Heck I could even make a case that Dean has suffered Survivor's Guilt since he was 4

Edited March 9, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I don't think it's just a matter of people seeing what they want to see though. I personally don't ship anyone on any show and frankly I've quit watching many shows because they made a ship cannon and for me it ruined the show because the focus inevitably becomes about the ship and not why I started watching the show in the first place...I'm looking at you Bones. For me I don't care at all about Sam, Dean or Cas's love life, it's not why I watch the show, I watch it for the supernatural/ mystery/ crime drama aspect of it. So if even I, oblivious and uninterested as I am in shipping can see winks, nods, nudges and anvils to a ship, I have to blame TPTB, not just delusional fangirls/guys.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that people were delusional--not that some people aren't delusional, but that's a discussion for another thread entirely, I think--I just meant that the viewer takes what they want from these scenes regardless of what the show's intention was. That's art, IMO. Almost any line and/or scene can have "subtext", I just don't think that means show intentionally put it in there simply to wink at the audience.

 

 

Since this is the UO thread, I feel safe confessing here that I actually LOVE S7. It's by far my favorite post-S3 season. It may even be equal to S1-S3 for me for reasons I can't begin to justify :) I'm pretty sure I'm at a table for one on this one, but I love that we can vent here without judgment :)  

 

I love so much about S7, too. In fact, I'm always surprised how many episodes I really like in S7 when I rewatch.

Edited March 9, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that people were delusional--not that some people aren't delusional, but that's a discussion for another thread entirely, I think--I just meant that the viewer takes what they want from these scenes regardless of what the show's intention was. That's art, IMO. Almost any line and/or scene can have "subtext", I just don't think that means show intentionally put it in there simply to wink at the audience.

 

 

 

In Fan Fiction the writers straight up acknowledged the existence of subtext. Was it included just to make fun of viewers who see subtext and implying "no you silly viewer there is no subtext except in your mind"?  Or was it's inclusion in the episode an acknowledgment, that yes the subtext exists, we know you see it but we aren't going to confirm what that subtext is exactly?

[NoWillToResist]

Fair warning for those who don't like Dean/Cas or "Destiel" or "shipping" discussion, I'm going to discuss it. And what the Dean/Cas relationship means to this viewer.

 

Background as an SPN viewer: I am a relative noob to the fandom(2013).  I didn't watch the whole series until like Nov 2013 to January 2013 on a netflix binge and my first actual real-time watching was s9 and my first Hellatus was after 9.23. HAHAHAHAHA , worst Hellatus EVER.  JFC.

 

I did not see a moment of SPN until 2012 and that was only part of one episode which was What's Up Tiger Mommy

 

Not a word of a lie, I remember the first scene I saw of SPN like it was yesterday. I think I remember it so vividly because I had just finished watching the very first episode of Arrow, which I was RIDICULOUSLY excited about and was soooo good.  I was over the moon and I guess my good mood just etched that whole evening in my mind with all the good brain chemicals. 

 

I was watching Arrow on DVR delay so when the episode ended, it went back to the the CW station that was airing live and literally dropped into Dean finding Cas by the river in Purgatory.

 

Imagine my confusion about the plot and the rest of the episode but what stuck with me besides how fucking beautiful the actors were, was what the heck was happening between the super hot guy with the battle axe and the guy with dirty trenchcoat ( and Captain Kelly)

 

Once I saw Dean and Cas hug, and the look on Dean's face, I immediately thought they were in a romantic relationship. Yes, men can hug and it not be romantic but my impression of that entire reunion scene was of two men reuniting who were in love with each other and had done everything to protect the other. There was no kiss but but everything else was romantic, IN MY OPINION. I did not think either was in love with the third guy.

 

 

It's funny that that ep was the first you ever saw. That's the one that made me seek out more media online because the whole Purgatory thing just RIPPED into me. And then I fell into the Destiel hole and haven't climbed back out. :D

 

Dean and Cas had always been close and looked out for each other and I loved that. Dean's misery when he got out without Cas and we were left to ask what the fuck happened was killing me. And then that episode aired. Yeah, dear God. You have Dean refusing to go home to his baby brother (Sam had ALWAYS come first beforehand) without Cas. So he spends, like, a YEAR in Purgatory, chopping his way through a whole host of nasties to try and find Cas, even though he had no proof that he was alive. Over and over again "where's the angel?". And he finally finds one who gives him his first lead and the monster is all "you'll find YOUR angel there" (yeah, fuck you writers, I see your shenanigans. Just like with Naomi's "I know you're hoping Castiel will RETURN TO YOU")  ;)

 

Then the hug. *sniff*  Dean had rarely been that demonstrative, and certainly not with Cas. The smile and relief on his face and the grip he had on that angel? I loved it. The face touch with the 'nice peach fuzz', And Benny standing awkwardly to the side, just taking in the spectacle. :)  Dean's adamant belief that Cas hadn't run off on him, and then giving Cas the opportunity to explain himself when he found out that Cas had actually run off. Dean's FACE when Cas revealed that he'd been trying to draw away the Leviathan to keep them away from Dean? Dead. Then Dean gives him the "fuck the Leviathan, we can beat 'em together" speech? Ugh. Dead again. :D  The "I need you" and the "I'm not leaving here without you" and the "we're gonna shove your ass through the eye of the needle even if it kills us all"? It was overload of emotion.

 

And then topside, Dean is having visions of Cas. One of which was shot very similarly to an older episode in which Sam has visions of Jess. When Cas legit turns up, I don't happen to agree with the fan theory that Dean was hiding a boner when Cas got all cleaned up...I believe he was shifting uncomfortably because he wasn't sure how Cas got out and was feeling anxious. But then the whole 'saving Kevin' mission, Dean was all over Cas in concern and then afterward, it's revealed that Dean had created a false memory (!?) and then you had Dean's "I don't need to feel like hell for failing you; the same way I've failed every other godforsaken thing I care about. I don't need it!"

 

That last line kind of put it all over the top for me and my Dean/Cas cup overflowed. I haven't been the same since. ;)

 

And yet, despite all that, I am not asking for or demanding "canon Destiel". I don't feel misled or that I'm owed it. I was perfectly happy with what I was being given. But now they've taken away most of their interactions completely and I am bereft. ;)

[Demented Daisy]

In Fan Fiction the writers straight up acknowledged the existence of subtext. Was it included just to make fun of viewers who see subtext and implying "no you silly viewer there is no subtext except in your mind"?  Or was it's inclusion in the episode an acknowledgment, that yes the subtext exists, we know you see it but we aren't going to confirm what that subtext is exactly?

 

How about, "Yes, we know you see subtext, but it wasn't our intention"?  That's what Jensen's look said to me.

[NoWillToResist]

In Fan Fiction the writers straight up acknowledged the existence of subtext. Was it included just to make fun of viewers who see subtext and implying "no you silly viewer there is no subtext except in your mind"?  Or was it's inclusion in the episode an acknowledgment, that yes the subtext exists, we know you see it but we aren't going to confirm what that subtext is exactly?

 

 

How about, "Yes, we know you see subtext, but it wasn't our intention"?  That's what Jensen's look said to me.

 

Didn't one of the writers...I want to say Adam Glass?...tweet that he prefers to leave wiggle room in the narrative so that people can have their own interpretation/reading of the relationships?

 

Personally I prefer that too. People want to see Dean and Cas as family? No problem! Want to assume that they'll hook up once the curtain finally falls? Go for it since nothing's been ruled out!

 

IMO, there's no hope for those who insist that Dean doesn't care about Cas at all except for what he can do for them. That's just...ignoring the narrative entirely...

Edited March 9, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[DittyDotDot]

In Fan Fiction the writers straight up acknowledged the existence of subtext. Was it included just to make fun of viewers who see subtext and implying "no you silly viewer there is no subtext except in your mind"?  Or was it's inclusion in the episode an acknowledgment, that yes the subtext exists, we know you see it but we aren't going to confirm what that subtext is exactly?

 

I just don't think the show is really as savvy as some people think. I think they're genuinely surprised the things the fans find meaning in and/or fixate on. In the case of Fan Fiction, I think they were just recognizing that the fans do find subtext whether they intended there to be subtext or not. I took it as them wanting to let us know they're cool with whatever interpretation of the show you have, they just want people to have fun with the show.

[AwesomO4000]

To me Dean having a false memory that he failed to save Cas was hardcore Survivor's Guilt that accompanied Dean's PTSD.

 

Dean felt guilty for surviving when he thought Cas had died.  That is one thing that I never thought twice about. And IMO Dean's false memory wasn't so different from the actual fact of the situation.  It was a matter of who let go of whose hand.  Dean thought he dropped Cas' hand vs Cas pulling his hand away and pushing Dean into the portal.

 

Heck I could even make a case that Dean has suffered Survivor's Guilt since he was 4

 

I don't disagree with that, though that was a weird way for the guilt to manifest - i.e. in a way that would make Dean feel more guilty - so the "oh, shut up" wasn't for Dean. It was for the writers (I should've made that more clear). As I said - I got it. Dean is a brave hero. He feels guilty that he didn't save Castiel (even though he really did). And I'm supposed to contrast this with "yeah, I abandoned Kevin and I didn't look for you, so what?" Sam. For me it wasn't subtle. It was the anvils that were annoying and took me mostly out of the story.

[NoWillToResist]

I just don't think the show is really as savvy as some people think. I think they're genuinely surprised the things the fans find meaning in and/or fixate on. In the case of Fan Fiction, I think they were just recognizing that the fans do find subtext whether they intended there to be subtext or not. I took it as them wanting to let us know they're cool with whatever interpretation of the show you have, they just want people to have fun with the show.

 

What was that lovely comment by Misha at a con? That he loves how the fans take their show and use it as a canvas upon which they paint/write the stories that matter most to them? I thought that was a classy way to phrase it.

 

I have read some meta/analysis that has some serious PhD level of depth. It's astounding. And then I hear about an episode where Dean becomes dog-like and flirts with a poodle and I'm just...is this the same show? :D

 

The patterns/parallels that people see are fascinating and, when looked at with a certain lens, I can definitely see why many have the viewpoints they have. But, I think they give TPTB far too much credit. Fans remember EVERYTHING; every bit of dialogue and canon event and character history and what have you. These writers? Mmm, not so much, IMO. Just look at the inconsistencies with their mythologies. The writers rotate and I simply cannot believe that most of them do the required 'homework' to create some majestic overarching framework with intended callbacks, foreshadowing, symbolism, parallels and all that jazz that people seem to think they're doing. I just...don't think SPN is that type of art. *shrug*

Edited March 9, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[catrox14]

How about, "Yes, we know you see subtext, but it wasn't our intention"?  That's what Jensen's look said to me.

 

 

That was not written into the script.  The subtext was referenced with Wincest first and Dean told the girls to take a substep back from each other. And then later when he sees girl!Dean and girl!Cas embrace and was told they were a couple, he didn't shout at them to take a substep back from each other, he just gave a funny stare to the camera. 

 

Should I take Jensen's ad-lib as him speaking for the writers? I don't think I would. 

[Demented Daisy]

Supernatural is made mostly by men, for an audience of mostly women.  I'm not at all surprised that the audience would see things that TPTB may not have intended.  It happens between the genders all the time, in my experience.

 

 

That was not written into the script.  The subtext was referenced with Wincest first and Dean told the girls to take a substep back from each other. And then later when he sees girl!Dean and girl!Cas embrace and was told they were a couple, he didn't shout at them to take a substep back from each other, he just gave a funny stare to the camera. 

 

Should I take Jensen's ad-lib as him speaking for the writers? I don't think I would. 

 

 

That's entirely your prerogative.  I think it would have been odd for him to think he can get between a couple who wasn't rehearsing for a scene, like the Dean and Sam actresses were.  He was, in a way, giving stage directions to one, not the other.

 

But, hey, whatever.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[NoWillToResist]

 The subtext was referenced with Wincest first and Dean told the girls to take a substep back from each other. And then later when he sees girl!Dean and girl!Cas embrace and was told they were a couple, he didn't shout at them to take a substep back from each other, he just gave a funny stare to the camera. 

 

I amuse myself to pretend that this was a shout out to "Cockles" (the name given to the Jensen and Misha "ship").  ;)

[catrox14]

Supernatural is made mostly by men, for an audience of mostly women.  I'm not at all surprised that the audience would see things that TPTB may not have intended.  It happens between the genders all the time, in my experience.

 

 

 

 

That's entirely your prerogative.  I think it would have been odd for him to think he can get between a couple who wasn't rehearsing for a scene, like the Dean and Sam actresses were.  He was, in a way, giving stage directions to one, not the other.

 

But, hey, whatever.

 

That whole thing was so weird.

 

Dean had no business interfering with the play in the first place. I never understood why Marie didn't tell him to buzz off about that. 

 

But to the subtext on the subtext stuff...(Is this Subtextception?) 

 

Dean has always been canonically annoyed with Wincest as we saw in Monster at the end of this Book and other times, he always says "They know we're brothers right?"  To me his look to the camera when he saw 'Destiel' was more like a "really?" more than get away run away ewww gross like he is about Wincest.

[MysteryGuest]

I personally have never thought of Dean and Cas as romantically involved in any way.  I think Cas latched on to Dean at the very beginning and was fascinated by his humanity.  That later developed into friendship, and love, but again, I don't see see it as sexual.  Angels are basically genderless, and Cas was always portrayed as clueless about how humans work, so I think most of the sexual innuendos that were made were for humor only, and not as a hint of what was going on between the lines.  I think everyone likes to tease Dean about his "boyfriend" because Cas is sort of like an adoring puppy at time.  And they know it would annoy Dean.

 

If the public response to the character's interactions has caused TPTB to deliberately keep them separated, then that's a shame.  They do have great chemistry and their scenes throughout the series have been some of the best.  It would be a shame not o have more to look forward to.

[NoWillToResist]

Dean has always been canonically annoyed with Wincest as we saw in Monster at the end of this Book and other times, he always says "They know we're brothers right?"  To me his look to the camera when he saw 'Destiel' was more like a "really?" more than get away run away ewww gross like he is about Wincest.

 

Well, to be fair, I'd be far more likely to vehemently shut down any speculation on my sex life if someone were implying I was involved with my SISTER rather than, say, a friend or coworker... :D

[catrox14]

Well, to be fair, I'd be far more likely to vehemently shut down any speculation on my sex life if someone were implying I was involved with my SISTER rather than, say, a friend or coworker... :D

 

That was kind of my point, which I guess I did not get across, LOL. 

 

The funny thing is that the one time Dean didn't freak out over Wincest 100% was in the Real Ghostbusters, with the gay couple that was cosplaying them, he was just more surprised than anything. Hmm.

[7kstar]

In Fan Fiction the writers straight up acknowledged the existence of subtext. Was it included just to make fun of viewers who see subtext and implying "no you silly viewer there is no subtext except in your mind"?  Or was it's inclusion in the episode an acknowledgment, that yes the subtext exists, we know you see it but we aren't going to confirm what that subtext is exactly?

Subtext is also a major part of acting.  What is the subtext of the line that isn't said.  The feeling and actions that make it real. 

 

So subtext just is, but people will always interpret what the meaning of something is...it's in their nature and has been going on long before the internet.  The difference in the early shows you only got to watch them once or sometimes two times if you saw the rerun.  Now you can watch the show as often as you are willing.

 

I also think they like to acknowledge the fans interpretations of their eps, even if they just scratch their heads.    I remember watching Starsky and Hutch and fans were positive they were gay and the writers kept saying they were only writing close friendships.  What pulls you in, your life history, your likes and dislikes will color how you watch a show.

 

I have no problem with how people feel about their point of view as long as they have room for tolerance for a point of view that disagrees with theirs. 

 

I used Bi-Brothers as I enjoy both brothers, but it doesn't mean it has to be only Sam and Dean, Show.  I like Dean a bit more because more times than not, his emotions or my feelings about his character relates to me more than Sam. 

 

I also like trying to see if I can figure out the direction the writers are going.  If they trick me, I can respect that.  But I agree they just need to tell the story and not try to please the fans as much.  Sometimes trying to please everyone, just makes it a bad story. 

 

Of course it doesn't hurt that I think Jensen is hot and most of the time I love how he looks on screen.  :)

Edited March 10, 2016 by 7kstar

[catrox14]

Oh man. I remember the Starsky & Hutch are gay conversations.  I loved that dumb show. I was totally a Starsky-girl all the way.

[SueB]

Apologies to all who use bi-bro to mean "I like both Sam and Dean".  I actually have used that term in that way myself.  But as pointed out up above, it seems a wider audience uses bi-bro to mean "bronlies". Hence, my usage above.  In the future I will use "bronly" or "bronlies" for that category.  I'd correct my earlier usage but then many subsequent posts would not make sense. 

So... I'm bi-bro in that I like both Sam and Dean. I'm not bi-bro if it means bronly (brothers ONLY). I will stick with "bronly" when referring to that subgroup.

 

catrox - I love your play by play of first time accidental viewer of Supernatural! 

 

catching up with other bits:

- I'm a ship all the ships if you want but expect nothing from TPTB

- I think Jensen's look at the camera in Fan Fiction was consistent with his rejection of the notion that Cas and Dean are secretly having sex off-camera.  Hence the look came after "you can't have subtext without S-E-x".  Which, BTW, is not actually the literary definition of subtext -- but in SPN fandom, with how Marie described it, "subtext" has now become connected with "sex". Jensen's been clear he plays Cas and Dean as having a deep, abiding, non-romantic (i.e. not sex) relationship.   I would personally speculate that what probably irritates him is people telling him he's playing a character in a way different than he thinks he's playing a character.  That's kinda saying he's doing a bad job of acting.  Somehow many people don't see that as a possible interpretation of his reaction.

 

 

I have no problem with how people feel about their point of view as long as they have room for tolerance for a point of view that disagrees with theirs.

 

THIS. 

[NoWillToResist]

Apologies to all who use bi-bro to mean "I like both Sam and Dean".  I actually have used that term in that way myself.  But as pointed out up above, it seems a wider audience uses bi-bro to mean "bronlies". Hence, my usage above.  In the future I will use "bronly" or "bronlies" for that category.

 

Oh man, the use of 'bronly' makes me immediately think of those grown men who fetishize My Little Ponies, and my brain just melted right out of my head. :)

 

I honestly can't decide whether I regret tripping over the whole Destiel business online. On the one hand, there are some brilliant dissections and analyses of the show, its stories, its structure etc.; there's amazing fanfiction which is better written and more compelling than many published works I've read; and there's some gorgeous fan art. But equally, it has shown me a side to fandom that I simply do not like. And when I see the ugliness shown to real people over fucking fictional characters, which now appears to have also migrated to ugliness over the "secret gay relationships" between the various ACTORS too (and thus hate towards or dismissal of their wives), and it just makes me weep for humanity.

 

When the show is over, I would dearly love to get the actors' genuine feelings on some of the poses they've been asked to do together at the photo ops at various cons. I've seen some, and was all "Jesus, these guys have the patience/tolderance of saints..."

Edited March 10, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[catrox14]

Jensen is a director. He knows that storytelling is more complex than just the acting. He knows it can be told through the writing, cinematography, set design, etc. IMO he gave a non-answer. He moved the goalpost and avoided the more complex discussion of  idea of how Dean and Cas' relationship has played out on-screen which leads some viewers to wonder about the nature of their relationship.

 

How many opposite sex romances start off with two idiots that are in love with each other and they just can't see it, won't acknowledge it or can't accept it. And it takes them until the end of the movie to declare that love.

 

 

They meet under bizarre circumstances. They look at each other like they are the most unique thing the other one has ever seen but they are antagonists...with a common enemy. Someone hurts the other one.  They stared at each other a little too long..

 

One is damaged and closed off to attachments. Suffering PTSD. Has lost everything and everyone they ever loved. The other one has lost enough but still has something to hold onto but is losing faith. They become allies. There is a huge betrayal of trust that is almost impossible to get over...but apologies are made and eventually they heal.  They become friends. Advisers and confidantes to each other. One protects the other's family members with their life. They will die for each other and their friends. They never kissed, or held hands etc.  And one day, in a moment when they let their guards down they shared a moment of laughter and everything changed. They saw what had been in front of them the entire time.

 

It was organic, and beautifully crafted to make a couple I never believed I would see on network TV and certainly not on this particular show.      

 

Does that sound like anyone we know?

 

Actually...SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!

It's Rick and Michonne from The Walking Dead. 

 

IMO it's a mistake to think the showrunners, writers, directors, actors and production crew are not clever enough or not interested in creating subtext or don't think about it as a way to tell a story. Do they push us to a certain reading of the subtext? I don't know.

[NoWillToResist]

Jensen is a director. He knows that storytelling is more complex than just the acting. He knows it can be told through the writing, cinematography, set design, etc. IMO he gave a non-answer. He moved the goalpost and avoided the more complex discussion of  idea of how Dean and Cas' relationship has played out on-screen which leads some viewers to wonder about the nature of their relationship.

 

How many opposite sex romances start off with two idiots that are in love with each other and they just can't see it, won't acknowledge it or can't accept it. And it takes them until the end of the movie to declare that love.

 

 

They meet under bizarre circumstances. They look at each other like they are the most unique thing the other one has ever seen but they are antagonists...with a common enemy. Someone hurts the other one.  They stared at each other a little too long..

 

One is damaged and closed off to attachments. Suffering PTSD. Has lost everything and everyone they ever loved. The other one has lost enough but still has something to hold onto but is losing faith. They become allies. There is a huge betrayal of trust that is almost impossible to get over...but apologies are made and eventually they heal.  They become friends. Advisers and confidantes to each other. One protects the other's family members with their life. They will die for each other and their friends. They never kissed, or held hands etc.  And one day, in a moment when they let their guards down they shared a moment of laughter and everything changed. They saw what had been in front of them the entire time.

 

It was organic, and beautifully crafted to make a couple I never believed I would see on network TV and certainly not on this particular show.      

 

Does that sound like anyone we know?

 

Actually...SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!

It's Rick and Michonne from The Walking Dead. 

 

IMO it's a mistake to think the showrunners, writers, directors, actors and production crew are not clever enough or not interested in creating subtext or don't think about it as a way to tell a story. Do they push us to a certain reading of the subtext? I don't know.

 

The thing that guts me about Dean/Cas is that if you presented their story but removed (or changed) the pronouns, I think most people would be all over that as an epic love story.

 

But it's two guys, so of course it can't be a romance, only bromance. /sarcasm

 

Please note that I don't mean to imply that those who don't see them as romantic are dense or blind. TPTB may not be intentionally positioning them in this way, but I think it would unfair for someone to objectively look at how their story has played out and call those who see romance between the characters delusional. I think it's obvious that Dean and Cas love each other; to what degree is the sticking point, IMO. It used to be easy when Dean would tell Cas that he was like a brother to him...but that particular descriptor hasn't been used for years.

 

I personally think TPTB are walking a thin line; how it plays out in the end will, I believe, largely depend on how long the show runs and who remains behind the scenes.

Edited March 10, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[catrox14]

 

I personally think TPTB are walking a thin line; how it plays out in the end will, I believe, largely depend on how long the show runs and who remains behind the scenes.

 

Yup. I agree. Although, I'm totally weird because part of me wants an epic tragic ending vs a happy ending...and don't know why I feel that way. I mean I say that but in the end...I dunno. Like I said, I'm weird

[NoWillToResist]

Yup. I agree. Although, I'm totally weird because part of me wants an epic tragic ending vs a happy ending...and don't know why I feel that way. I mean I say that but in the end...I dunno. Like I said, I'm weird

 

I kind of want an all or nothing situation; either all three die or all three survive. I'm rooting for a big group hug either way. ;)

[catrox14]

I'm still really bitter about the early truncation of Demon!Dean.

 

I got lost down a rabbit hole of Jensen interviews and was watching a few of his brief press room interviews from SDCC 2014 when he was filming demon!Dean...

 

Man, do I admire Jensen's professionalism and self-control with not spoiling demon!Dean's early demise. And it breaks my heart for him a little bit too because you could see how excited he was about it portraying demon!Dean. Yet, he had to sit there, in interview after interview and at the panel, selling it all when he knew full well that the demon!Dean arc was ending with the episode he was directing and filming first.   Gah...grrr....annoyed still and forever.

 

It seems like MoC!Dean taking over Dean in s10 was different than  demon!Dean because demon!Dean didn't care about anything and MoC!Dean did seem to care. He sure cared about the Stynes killing Charlie. So I wonder if actual demon!Dean would have cared about Charlie's death. And if did what would he have been like.   I feel like MoC!Dean was just depressed and angry about everything whereas Demon!Dean wasn't really ever angry, except when being held against his will and being told what to do by Crowley or anyone. 

Edited March 10, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

For 11 years, Dean has been portrayed as the stereotypical heterosexual male.  From the regular hookup with actual women (as he likes to point out!), his penchant for Busty Asian Beauties, and his pretty regular porn surfing, I would find it odd now for him to find himself sexually attracted to a man.  I think he absolutely loves Cas, while also feeling a tremendous amount of responsibility for him.  I just don't think it's any more than that.  Of course, this is just my opinion, and others can and will see something different in their relationship.  

 

I think they did a pretty good job in Fan Fiction of teasing the audience a little about their particular ships, while at the same time showing that they were ok with it.  But I would be disappointed if they changed the relationships within the show to fit the various shipping relationships in the fans' heads.

[ahrtee]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again (and probably again at some other time):  people are capable of  “loving” someone without “being in love” with them.  And “love” doesn’t *have* to mean “physical love;” it can also mean emotional support: caring for/about a person’s well being and happiness, and wanting to help and support them, without wanting to have sex with them.  It doesn't mean that you can't have both; but right now, it appears that the only way that’s acceptable to have that level of caring without the sex is in parent-child relationships, and I think that’s very, very sad.

[MysteryGuest]

I agree, ahrtee, and it's especially difficult for men.  Whether it's their own insecurities at play, or their concerns about the opinions of others, it is difficult for men to express affection for other men.  When Jensen and Misha were discussing the scene that originally called for Dean to tell Cas that he loved him, they both found that to be awkward dialogue.  Was that because guys just don't talk like that (and if not, why not?) or was it because of what the audience would think or read into it?  

 

In a perfect world, it won't matter who's in love with whom, and people will be able to express their feelings for one another without having to worry about how it might be misconstrued by someone else, or the need for anyone else to put a label on that love.

[NoWillToResist]

I agree, ahrtee, and it's especially difficult for men.  Whether it's their own insecurities at play, or their concerns about the opinions of others, it is difficult for men to express affection for other men.  When Jensen and Misha were discussing the scene that originally called for Dean to tell Cas that he loved him, they both found that to be awkward dialogue.  Was that because guys just don't talk like that (and if not, why not?) or was it because of what the audience would think or read into it? 

 

I think it was changed because DEAN doesn't talk like that (and I agree). I suspect not having to deal with fan interpretation of that bit of dialogue was just a bonus. :)

 

I find it fascinating how many ships are out there for male characters who are emotionally close (John/Sherlock, Kirk/Spock, Ragnar/Athelston etc.), It's an intriguing phenomenon and I'm torn between wanting some nice representation for the non-hetero fans and wanting close, loving friendships between men to be allowed and encouraged.

 

I think that's partly why I won't be upset if Dean and Cas stay platonic (but for fuck's sake, please put them back in scenes together!) because I find such a strong bond between men - by choice and not related to desire - so rare and lovely.

[ahrtee]

I agree that it's next to impossible for men to express their feelings without feeling like they're being judged, and Misha and Jensen's discomfort with the dialogue seems appropriate for them and the show:  yes, it would definitely be OOC for Dean (maybe not for Cas);  and in this particular instance, I think saying "I love you" is a little too absolute, given how careful the writers have been about keeping the relationship ambiguous/open to interpretation.  Frankly,  I'm surprised it was even in the script.  So, I don't really have a problem with men not *expressing* emotions out loud.  I'm sad that the non-verbal ways (facial expressions, offering to help, even awkwardly, maybe a hand on the shoulder) are also usually taken the wrong way.

 

 

Shutting up now.  I think I've probably beaten this horse to death.  

 

ETA:  Thank, NoWillToResist.  You're faster on the keyboard than I am, so I wound up saying the same things (but not as well).  

Edited March 11, 2016 by ahrtee

[catrox14]

 

being judged, and Misha and Jensen's discomfort with the dialogue seems appropriate for them and the show:  yes, it would definitely be OOC for Dean (maybe not for Cas);  and in this particular instance, I think saying "I love you" is a little too absolute, given how careful the writers have been about keeping the relationship ambiguous/open to interpretation.  Frankly,  I'm surprised it was even in the script.  So, I don't really have a problem with men not *expressing* emotions out loud.  I'm sad that the non-verbal ways (facial expressions, offering to help, even awkwardly, maybe a hand on the shoulder) are also usually taken the wrong way.

 

 

Jensen's point in Goodbye Stranger was that Dean has never said "I love you" to anyone other than Mary. I think that was a wise choice. Dean saying "I need you" actually IMO made Dean more vulnerable than saying "I love you". 

 

I often wonder what character folks are watching who think Dean doesn't express his emotions. They are written all over his face especially around people he trusts and it shows in his actions.

[NoWillToResist]

I agree that it's next to impossible for men to express their feelings without feeling like they're being judged, and Misha and Jensen's discomfort with the dialogue seems appropriate for them and the show:  yes, it would definitely be OOC for Dean (maybe not for Cas);  and in this particular instance, I think saying "I love you" is a little too absolute, given how careful the writers have been about keeping the relationship ambiguous/open to interpretation.  Frankly,  I'm surprised it was even in the script.  So, I don't really have a problem with men not *expressing* emotions out loud.  I'm sad that the non-verbal ways (facial expressions, offering to help, even awkwardly, maybe a hand on the shoulder) are also usually taken the wrong way.

 

Well, I could see the writer thinking that the ILY would be needed (per the stereotype) to break the afflicted person out of the mind control. Also, there are different types of 'love' so the ILY needn't have been romantic in nature (though I agree that TPTB probably wouldn't have wanted to risk it anyway).

 

 

Jensen's point in Goodbye Stranger was that Dean has never said "I love you" to anyone other than Mary. I think that was a wise choice. Dean saying "I need you" actually IMO made Dean more vulnerable than saying "I love you". 

 

I often wonder what character folks are watching who think Dean doesn't express his emotions. They are written all over his face especially around people he trusts and it shows in his actions.

 

I agree. Dean's so self-sufficient (with only Sam as his Achilles heel), so I really like that, IMO, Cas has now joined the ranks of people Dean sees as critical to him.

 

To your latter point, I think people just refer to dialogue in such cases (since interpretations on expression and body language can vary widely), and Dean Winchester does not like TALKING about emotions (except for that time when he prompted Cas to open up to him when Cas got out of Purgatory - I was very emotional there). ;)   He'll mother hen the fuck out of you, he'll die and/or kill for you, but he won't TELL you that he loves you. ;)  There's a silly fangirl part of me which hopes this changes with the whole Cas/Lucifer thing since Cas didn't feel needed/useful in any other capacity. I want another crypt scene (minus the violence) with Dean doing everything he can WITH HIS WORDS to get Cas to eject Lucifer by conveying how important Cas is to Dean (and Sam), with or without his powers.

[DittyDotDot]

I often wonder what character folks are watching who think Dean doesn't express his emotions. They are written all over his face especially around people he trusts and it shows in his actions.

 

IMO, it's not that Dean doesn't express his emotions, but it's just that Dean doesn't think he's expressing his emotions. 

[Aeryn13]

 

I often wonder what character folks are watching who think Dean doesn't express his emotions.

 

It`s actually a little bit of a cheat because it`s a TV show. Dean does his best not to express his emotions, at least not ones that make him seem vulnerable or a burden, to others. Which I can get because while some people may show initial sympathy, couple episodes later to use it as ammunition to call him weak or a burden etc. But the audience is still privvy to his emotions because we see "alone" scenes where he clearly expresses them to the camera.

 

Of course, for those he gets called weak and whiny out-of-show. Or self-involved because clearly he only angsts about himself yadda yadda. Like recently for the U-Boot-episode. Damned if you don`t, damned if you do.