Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Demented Daisy]

Sorry I took yesterday off.  New video game came in.  It was as good a reason as any to avoid the seasons I've been dreading.  ;-)

[AwesomO4000]

I don't blame you on the avoidance.

 

I am interested in what the numbers are going to say though. I suspected there might be some variation from the previous seasons, so it will be interesting to see if my perception was incorrect on that.

[Demented Daisy]

I am working, I promise.  S8 is a bitch.  Almost done -- trying to finish by bedtime tonight.  :-)

 

ETA  Uh, question.  Benny.  Credit Dean for a kill or no?

Edited January 31, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[7kstar]

Dean kills him but it is also angst driven.  But Sam has one in season 1 in Heart.  I forget the characters name, but he kills her to save her from killing others.

 

Dean kills benny to save sam.  It shows how far he will go to save his brother.

[Demented Daisy]

Well, I counted it.  But I'm willing to edit if we decide differently.

 

Season 8 numbers:

 

Sam Plans -- 5

Sam Saves -- 3

Sam Kills -- 1

 

Dean Plans -- 3

Dean Saves -- 5

Dean Kills -- 3 (plus 4 onscreen kills in Purgatory)

 

Joint Plans -- 4

Joint Saves -- 3

Joint Kills -- 7

 

No Plan -- 11

No Save -- 12

No Kill -- 12

[AwesomO4000]

Thanks for taking one for the team, Demented Daisy.

 

And wow, season 8 was even worse for Sam than I thought. I remembered him being a damsel in that season, but I thought he had more than 1. I'm guessing the kill was the hellhound.

 

But the joint kills went up, so there is that.

[Demented Daisy]

Thanks for taking one for the team, Demented Daisy.

 

And wow, season 8 was even worse for Sam than I thought. I remembered him being a damsel in that season, but I thought he had more than 1. I'm guessing the kill was the hellhound.

 

Yep.  After that, 3 joint kills, no individual for either of them.  

 

Getting another cup of coffee, then I'll start on S9.  If I was dreading 8, it's nothing to how I feel about 9.  I haven't even watched it since it was aired.  Except for Dog Dean Afternoon.  I can tolerate that one.

[Demented Daisy]

Sam doesn't get credit for Gadreel's kills, right?

[DittyDotDot]

I wouldn't think so....no, those are all on Gadreel.

[AwesomO4000]

I agree with SueB.

 

It wasn't even like Sam's Lucifer possession with Gadreel in that Sam didn't even know what was happening at the time. He lost time when Gadreel pushed to the front, or he was put into a false memory.

[Aeryn13]

Didn`t Sam kill the hellhound, some monster in Purgatory and whatever that was in the Pacman episode? I`m just going off the top of my head here, I hate the second half of Season 8 too much to check.

[AwesomO4000]

With how DementedDaisy does the statistics, I think the Purgatory episode and the PacMan one count as "joint kills," since Dean also had kills in the same case. The hellhound was Sam's solo kill.

 

According to what DD reported above, there were no solo kills for either brother after that, so there was killing for both of the brothers, but it was shared. There were more shared kills this season than previously, though, which is interesting, because I hadn't remembered that, so my perception was incorrect on that part. But in general Dean was a pretty busy guy this season (which I remembered that part) with 3 solo kills, 7 shared kills (4 before and 3 after midseason), and 4 purgatory kills. So even though Dean did have a few more kills before midseason and less after, he and Sam actually had the same number of kills after (3 shared for both).

 

It'll pick up even more I think in season 9.

[Demented Daisy]

With how DementedDaisy does the statistics, I think the Purgatory episode and the PacMan one count as "joint kills," since Dean also had kills in the same case. The hellhound was Sam's solo kill.

 

Yep.  And there is method to my madness.  But I'll wait until the end and all the numbers are crunched.  ;-)

 

Had to take a break to run some errands (stupid grocery shopping), but I'm back on the job now. 

[Demented Daisy]

Season 9 numbers:

 

Sam Plans -- 3

Sam Saves -- 2

Sam Kills -- 1 (ETA Mother's Little Helper)

 

Dean Plans -- 4

Dean Saves -- 6

Dean Kills -- 9

 

Joint Plans -- 3

Joint Saves -- 2

Joint Kills -- 1 (Blade Runners)

 

No Plan -- 13

No Save -- 13

No Kill -- 12

Edited January 31, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[AwesomO4000]

Yeesh, not even many joint kills for that season.

 

And yeah, I was so glad for "Mother's Little Helper." It was good to have Sam be able to do something on a case after so long.

[Demented Daisy]

Should I do a separate count for Demon Dean's kills, like I did with Purgatory?

[SueB]

dean was fully cognizant. However you treated Soullesss Sam seems right to me.

[Demented Daisy]

Okie dokie.

[Demented Daisy]

In retrospect, Dean's decision not to remain a teenager in About a Boy seems rather foolish.  Pretty sure I've mentioned that before, but I can't remember where....

 

Back to work.

[catrox14]

In retrospect, Dean's decision not to remain a teenager in About a Boy seems rather foolish.  Pretty sure I've mentioned that before, but I can't remember where....

 

Back to work.

 

I don't think it was foolish per se. He was talking about the benefits of staying young vs re-aging. IMO he only re-aged because he was trying to protect Sam.  In hindsight, even if he had stayed young, the Mark would still be affecting him....since it's apparently still affecting him post removal.  Oh show, your random continuity is random.

[Demented Daisy]

I don't think it was foolish per se. He was talking about the benefits of staying young vs re-aging. IMO he only re-aged because he was trying to protect Sam.  

 

 

Indeed.  Once again, he threatens the world in order to protect Sam.  *sigh*

 

Season 10 numbers:

 

Sam Plans -- 11

Sam Saves -- 2

Sam Kills -- 4

 

Dean Plans -- 2

Dean Saves -- 4

Dean Kills -- 11

 

Joint Plans -- 3

Joint Saves -- 4

Joint Kills -- 1 (Book of the Damned)

 

No Plan -- 7

No Save -- 13

No Kill -- 7

[Demented Daisy]

Final tallies:

 

Sam Plans -- 46

Sam Saves -- 35

Sam Kills -- 40

 

Dean Plans -- 32

Dean Saves -- 38

Dean Kills -- 55 (plus 4 in Purgatory)

 

Joint Plans -- 48

Joint Saves -- 54

Joint Kills -- 25

 

No Plan -- 90

No Save -- 91

No Kill -- 99

 

A third of Dean's kills came in S9 and 10.  Thank you Mark of Cain.  I knew I hated that storyline.  

 

Anyway, the reason I did all this was to see if the raw numbers confirmed the conventional wisdom.  Take out the season 10 numbers (which really skewed Dean's kills and Sam's plans) and the numbers are quite close.  Over the years, it really has, IMO, been about a pair of brothers doing their best to save people and hunt things.

 

I'll crunch the numbers after season 11 is over, but I suspect that the numbers will hold.

[DittyDotDot]

Very interesting, demented one...good job!

 

I'm mostly struck by the "No Plans" and "No Saves" numbers right now.

[Demented Daisy]

I was as well, at first, but it only seems huge in comparison to the individual numbers.  Looking at it this way:

 

Plan -- 126

No Plan -- 90

 

Save -- 127

No Save -- 91

 

Kill -- 124

No Kill -- 99

 

The numbers don't seem quite as bad.  Also, those myth-arc episodes mess with the numbers.  I suspect they would look different if it was strictly MotW.  But I don't have the energy for that now.  ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

No, I meant, I was surprised how many times they went in with a plan of some sort (whether it was from Sam or Dean) compared to the number of times they went in without a plan...about 50/50. I expected Sam and Dean's numbers to be more or less the same, but I've never really thought about the no plans before. Kinda interesting.

 

 

ETA: It's also interesting the "save" and "no save" are about 50/50 too. 

 

ETA: I guess it's not really 50/50 because I was forgetting the "Joint" business. More like 60/40 with the planning and saving winning out a bit.

Edited February 1, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[7kstar]

What I find interesting is season 8.  Not counting Dean trying to survive Purgatory, Sam isn't that far behind Dean.  I suspected the Mark would change the score. 

 

Interesting to see in some ways it went like I suspected.  Thanks for all your hard work, I wouldn't have patience to go through all the data.  Thanks DDaisy.

[SueB]

Dear Demented Daisy .... THANK YOU.  I so love data and you got us DATA!  It IS some fascinating stuff too.  I'm hoping the "saves" go up in S11.

[Demented Daisy]

I keep forgetting -- you're welcome to everyone.  :-)

[AwesomO4000]

Okay, I'm bringing this over from the "Into the Mystic" episode thread, just to be sure:

I think it's a 50/50 split as are most things when it comes to this show. It really depends on where one lurks and what one reads,  you know?

    I didn't know there was much of a clamoring for it to be addressed at all at this point, because it had kind of become mostly a dead issue, just accepted as a huge fuck up by Carver. 

Actually, I was one of those people who was happy they finally addressed it, and has been wanting them to address it, because the show didn't really let it lie dead. They brought it up repeatedly, because that seems - to me - to be their MO when it comes to Sam during the Carver years. They've managed to dredge up most of the mistakes Sam has made more than once during the past few seasons and point at it. Raising Lucifer back in season 4 - yup, check, and let's not only mention it more than once, let's add in a backstory for a character including innocent people getting killed because a demon was celebrating Lucifer's raising just to make it even a little bit worse than it already was. Let's bring up Sam not looking for Dean not only all through season 8, but in an offhanded way - but still there - in the otherwise lighthearted 200th episode.

 

Even Sam being soulless - which wasn't even his fault - gets sort of blamed on Sam in the Carver years. Anyone coming in again in season 8 from say the end of season 5 or the beginning of season 6 - when some stopped watching - wouldn't necessarily know that Sam not having his soul wasn't his fault based on the season 8 information we got. Even the wording of "So, Sam came back from hell, but without a soul"** (also from "Fan Fiction") for example, doesn't clearly state that it wasn't something Sam did but something that was done to him if you didn't know the whole backstory. And coupled with Dean's thing in season 8 where he suggested "losing your soul" as something that Sam could pray for forgiveness for, it not only brings it up, but sends a weird message, in my opinion, about Sam's time being soulless. That episode also tacked "killing Lilith" on there, even though, for the most part, most participants at the time were on board with the "killing Lilith" plan for a long time actually, it was just the means they disagreed on, but that part of the story isn't mentioned. Now it's just something that Sam should need to ask forgiveness for.

 

Heck the writers even took something that was over and done with, resolved fairly amicably, and should've stayed that way - Amy - and dredged that back up and turned it into a "Sam has always wanted payback" story - which it wasn't even that in the first place and was even less so once it was resolved an episode later. So instead of a plot arc that was Dean lies to Sam about killing Amy, but after talking it over, Sam understands why Dean did it - both killing Amy and the lying - and forgives him, it gets turned into a Sam wants to take Benny away from Dean in revenge for Dean killing Amy thing, making Sam look like the bad guy and shifting the blame for the disagreement over to Sam for continuing the conflict rather than having Sam have any number of reasonable reasons to question Benny instead.

 

I realize this is all opinion here, but I do find it interesting that past things which are most often brought up are mistakes that Sam made and/or are things that are shifted over to imply Sam's fault somehow. But I put this mostly on Carver, because he not only doesn't let these things lie he often makes them bigger.

 

** I don't think it would've been that difficult to phrase it as "So, Castiel tried to save Sam from hell, but accidentally brought him back without his soul." It's a few more words, but there is no doubt that it was beyond Sam's control.

 

Then again I will bitch and moan until the end of time until we have ONE FUCKING person on screen besides Jensen via performance mention that Dean was in Hell for 40 years 6 years ago.

 

My theory is that one of the reasons that they don't bring up Dean being in hell very often, and especially for the 40 years, is because then the writers might have to explore why Dean went to hell and was there that long, and this might complicate the neat and tidy "Sam started the apocalypse" narrative they have had going for quite a while now. My theory only here: In some ways, I think the writers regretted having anything that would expand that part of the story beyond that season's symmetry, and even quickly started "damage control" early on for Dean, like Sam's crappy over the top behavior towards him which wasn't explained until way into the season when the damage was already done for Sam. And then showing how awful Alastair was, so we would definitely understand why Dean broke, and that the bad guys needed him to break so the first seal would be broken. It was therefore "fate" as explained by Castiel that Dean broke the first seal. ("It's not blame that falls on you, Dean, it's fate.") Once that was established, it was then best to ignore Dean going to hell for 40 years and move on. With Sam, on the other hand, it wasn't "fate" but his "choices" as explained by Ruby: "No. It wasn't the blood. It was you... and your choices. I just gave you the options, and you chose the right path every time."

 

By episode 5 of season 5, that was the way it went and even Dean seemed to forget that he broke the first seal. Even though it was obviously by accident, it would seem odd - to me, anyway - that Dean wouldn't blame himself some, since he blames himself for all sorts of things that aren't his fault. But that seemed to be the case based on the dialogue of that episode (Dean, talking to Bobby: Yeah, Abraham Lincoln and James Dean, can you believe that? ...Why so kill-crazy? Ah, maybe the apocalypse has got 'em all hot and bothered. (snarkily) Yeah, well, we all know whose fault that is. ...Well I'm sorry, but it's true.) - where I personally thought Dean's behavior wasn't quite right, but it was part of the narrative of "Sam started the apocalypse," so that's what happened. And I think that has pretty much been the party line ever since in the show.

Edited February 3, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[ahrtee]

See, here's where what we see is colored by our feeling towards the characters, I think.  Because what *I* see in most of your examples (aside from the obvious, which is that both Gamble and Carver and everyone else who has any say in the matter want to keep the angst a'coming and will go to the most ridiculous lengths to do so) is that *Dean*  comes across as the one who's a dick for bringing up all those dead-and-buried issues over again.  That after he'd already said it was all forgiven, he still brings it up at odd moments.  And I put all that on the showrunners, who seem to think the only way to get drama into the show is to have the boys mad at each other.

 

As far as I can remember, Dean has *always* forgiven Sam for anything he's done that was out of his control (ie, apocalypse, soullessness, possession, whatever) and has told him so repeatedly (including "it wasn't you" when possessed Sam killed a hunter and shot him and after Gadreel killed Kevin); and, when Sam was agonizing over the Apocalypse, he reminded him that *he* was the one who broke the first seal, and "who would have thought killing Lilith was a bad idea?"  So it wasn't ignored or put entirely on Sam, at least until the showrunners decided to start the brother-against-brother shit again.

 

About Amy and Benny?  I never got the feeling that Sam hating Benny was payback in any way.  What I did get (which was said outright several times) was that Sam resented Benny and how much Dean trusted him, and that to me came out sounding jealous and childish and OOC for Sam, who had tried to convince Dean starting in season 2 that not all monsters were evil, and that they deserved a chance to try to change. 

 

This isn't to say that Dean doesn't have a boatload of hidden anger that comes up now and then, but it's about the personal things, what he called "choices" in Southern Comfort (though the writers stuck in a bunch that *weren't* Sam's choice just to make it sound worse, and, of course, brought everything back up in Sacrifice, which made it sound like Dean was still angry and unforgiving.)  What Dean has had a hard time forgiving is what he sees as betrayals--so he wasn't angry at Sam for what he did while under the influence of demon blood, but that he "chose a demon over his own brother."  That he *repeatedly* ignored advice, warnings and pleas from everyone...angels and hunters and prophets and Dean and Bobby...and went ahead and did what he wanted to...which (unfortunately) tended to turn out badly.  And, unfortunately, for his "choice" in not looking for Dean in season 8.  You can blame the writers and/or Carver for making Sam do something so OOC, but you can't really blame Dean for being resentful, especially since Sam got defensive and/or attacked, rather than just saying "I'm sorry" at the time, which I think would have cut off the anger at the start.

 

As I think I said in the Into the Mystic thread, IMO Sam has apologized for the big things that *weren't* in his control, but not for those personal things which were much more hurtful to Dean.  And they go as far back as season 1, where Sam said outright that he hated hunting and couldn't wait to "be a real person again" and Hunted in season 2, where he took off in the middle of the night after Dean had literally BEGGED him to stay and work things out (and he'd promised he would.)  He has repeatedly hit Dean at his weakest points:  his fear of abandonment and low self-esteem, and used them as a weapon--sometimes deliberately, sometimes *probably* unconsciously.  Now, I'm *not* saying that Sam doesn't have a right to live his own life and get angry and do what he thinks he has to--but that he also has to acknowledge that he's hurting his brother and maybe he should come up with another way or talk it out instead of just taking off.  Or at least apologize for hurting him!  (What bothered me most about the Flagstaff story in Dark Side of the Moon was that the supposedly emo, empathetic Sam either didn't realize or didn't care that Dean would be worried out of his mind when Sam was missing.  When my sister had a big fight with my dad and ran away as a teenager, she still called mom to tell her she was all right, so that she wouldn't worry.)

 

I had a whole lot more here which was heading off onto a whole different topic, so I'll save and post it later separately (or not) since I'm guessing others have brought it up before and I just didn't read it.  But right now it's 1:30 in the morning and I'm probably not making a lot of sense right now.

[SueB]

I thought the parallel to the Amy story was Sam killing Emma (Amazon love child). And I thought Benny was the "got your back" parallel for the "didn't look for Dean in Purgatory" plot.

But count me in as one who appreciates Sam's apology about the "non-agreement agreement" not being good enough reason not to look. Dean didn't need to hear it, but Sam needed to say it. And I'm hoping this stops it from being mentioned again.

Edited February 3, 2016 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

 

But count me in as one who appreciates Sam's apology about the "non-agreement agreement" not being good enough reason not to look. Dean didn't need to hear it, but Sam needed to say it.

 

I disagree that Dean didn`t need to hear it. To me, Dean has certain issues because the attitude with him always seems to be: "he responds better to being yelled at and denigrated than to being treated kindly, he needs being put in his place" and "he doesn`t need the apology". Granted, I think he would have needed it more in Season 8 when it was still relevant but to have that acknowledgment now is better than nothing.  

[SueB]

I disagree that Dean didn`t need to hear it. To me, Dean has certain issues because the attitude with him always seems to be: "he responds better to being yelled at and denigrated than to being treated kindly, he needs being put in his place" and "he doesn`t need the apology". Granted, I think he would have needed it more in Season 8 when it was still relevant but to have that acknowledgment now is better than nothing.  

Fair point.  I think after condemning the world to The Darkness, Dean is sort of getting the extent that Sam will go to.  He doubted it after the failure to look for him after stabbing Dick (lol... just about ANY sentence goes naughty when referring to S7's Big Bad... see, did it again).  But the extent Sam went to in order to de-demon Dean and then remove the Mark, those are actions that Dean can't ignore. And I think Dean believed Sam in the Season premier when he said "And I'd do it again, I would." while simultaneously acknowledging that this is a problem.  Rewatching S1 on TNT this morning, I gotta say, I feel like the hype of "rebooting to S1" in S11 resonates with me.  There is an openness between them.  Yeah, Dean's still holding out on the effect of Amara but "gotta watch stay strong for Sammy" (see Sully's interaction with Dean in Just My Imagination), is still S1 Dean. 

 

So, I guess what I'm saying is that while Sam had already demonstrated with his actions, his words (especially after Lucifer laid it all out) provided a nice bookend to the S8 initial plot point.  Almost like a 3 1/2 year plan. 

[AwesomO4000]

See, here's where what we see is colored by our feeling towards the characters, I think.  Because what *I* see in most of your examples (aside from the obvious, which is that both Gamble and Carver and everyone else who has any say in the matter want to keep the angst a'coming and will go to the most ridiculous lengths to do so) is that *Dean*  comes across as the one who's a dick for bringing up all those dead-and-buried issues over again.  That after he'd already said it was all forgiven, he still brings it up at odd moments.  And I put all that on the showrunners, who seem to think the only way to get drama into the show is to have the boys mad at each other.

 

As far as I can remember, Dean has *always* forgiven Sam for anything he's done that was out of his control (ie, apocalypse, soullessness, possession, whatever) and has told him so repeatedly (including "it wasn't you" when possessed Sam killed a hunter and shot him and after Gadreel killed Kevin); and, when Sam was agonizing over the Apocalypse, he reminded him that *he* was the one who broke the first seal, and "who would have thought killing Lilith was a bad idea?"  So it wasn't ignored or put entirely on Sam, at least until the showrunners decided to start the brother-against-brother shit again.

 

I agree about the showrunners causing drama, but it isn't generally just Dean they have bringing these things up or even for brother drama. Season 5, I could see. It was still a plot point, so having other hunters blaming Sam was legitimate, as was having Dean be angry about it - as in "Fallen Idols." In my opinion, when it gets to be annoying and questionable is when it's brought up seemingly randomly for no apparent reason years later - that whole hunter with the parent(s) killed by the demon because Sam raised Lucifer thing was, in my opinion, entirely random and just not necessary except to point out - once again - Sam's big failure for some reason. (I don't even think it was relative to any growth for Sam or anything in the plot - I'll admit I never rewatched that episode, so I could be remembering wrongly, though.)

 

And the kinds of things the writers have Dean do with bringing up past hurts pales in comparison to the untrue crap they have Sam do and bring up - like in "The Purge" - so Dean is not the only one who is the victim of the writer's desire for manufactured angst. And often Sam isn't given the opportunity to apologize for it anymore either. Which is why I was so happy that this time they gave him the opportunity to do so.

 

And for me, I don't generally include Gamble in this kind of thing. I actually have only a few complaints with how she wrote the Sam/Dean relationship - see below.

 

About Amy and Benny?  I never got the feeling that Sam hating Benny was payback in any way.  What I did get (which was said outright several times) was that Sam resented Benny and how much Dean trusted him, and that to me came out sounding jealous and childish and OOC for Sam, who had tried to convince Dean starting in season 2 that not all monsters were evil, and that they deserved a chance to try to change.

 

I admit that I could be remembering this wrongly. I could've sworn I read somewhere that Sam mentioned Amy again in regards to his planning to kill Benny and that was one of his motivating factors. However, it might have been on TWoP - which was not a Sam-friendly venue to say the least - so perhaps I got that wrong. It doesn't help that I despise "Citizen Fang" and so have no inclination to go back and check it in any way whatsoever. So I'll just admit that I was really wrong on this one - I'd rather do that 100 times over than watch that horrid episode ever again.

 

It's also nice to see you saying the resenting Benny was out of character for Sam. You can't imagine how many posts I had to wade through on TWoP (because we were supposed to read them all before posting) saying that Sam's behavior towards Benny was "showing Sam's true colors" and was in character for him. It kind of grated to say the least.

 

That he *repeatedly* ignored advice, warnings and pleas from everyone...angels and hunters and prophets and Dean and Bobby...and went ahead and did what he wanted to...which (unfortunately) tended to turn out badly.  And, unfortunately, for his "choice" in not looking for Dean in season 8.  You can blame the writers and/or Carver for making Sam do something so OOC, but you can't really blame Dean for being resentful, especially since Sam got defensive and/or attacked, rather than just saying "I'm sorry" at the time, which I think would have cut off the anger at the start.

 

Oh, I definitely blame the writers and not Dean at all. It's their favorite thing to have Dean give good advice and have Sam or Castiel not listen to it. Sam's visions actually being Lucifer are just the latest example. I thought that I had expressed that in my answer. I apologize for not making that clear.

 

It's one of the reasons that I enjoyed late season 6 and season 7 so much. The brothers were not having that kind of angsty thing going on. There was only one Sam not listening to Dean's good advice plot - and Sam learned his lesson right off and actually did listen. (I was so relieved). Any questionable brotherly conflict (Amy) was resolved quickly (within 1 episode even) and Sam and Dean compromised and made their relationship better, and they worked as a team. The Bobby ghost thing was sort of annoying of Sam not to believe Dean, but at least there was a believable explanation and a believable reason for Sam to be worried/questioning, so I didn't find it as manipulative. I also enjoyed Sam's learning quickly about keeping things from Dean and keeping up the communication throughout the majority of season 7. I was extremely disappointed when instead of running with that dynamic - and with tons of set up for external conflict - season 8 went back to the manufactured brotherly angst.

 

As I think I said in the Into the Mystic thread, IMO Sam has apologized for the big things that *weren't* in his control, but not for those personal things which were much more hurtful to Dean.  And they go as far back as season 1, where Sam said outright that he hated hunting and couldn't wait to "be a real person again" and Hunted in season 2, where he took off in the middle of the night after Dean had literally BEGGED him to stay and work things out (and he'd promised he would.)  He has repeatedly hit Dean at his weakest points:  his fear of abandonment and low self-esteem, and used them as a weapon--sometimes deliberately, sometimes *probably* unconsciously.  Now, I'm *not* saying that Sam doesn't have a right to live his own life and get angry and do what he thinks he has to--but that he also has to acknowledge that he's hurting his brother and maybe he should come up with another way or talk it out instead of just taking off.  Or at least apologize for hurting him!  (What bothered me most about the Flagstaff story in Dark Side of the Moon was that the supposedly emo, empathetic Sam either didn't realize or didn't care that Dean would be worried out of his mind when Sam was missing.  When my sister had a big fight with my dad and ran away as a teenager, she still called mom to tell her she was all right, so that she wouldn't worry.)

 

Sam in the beginning was somewhat complex. For every personal hurt Sam inflicted on Dean and didn't apologize for, there were likely just as many or more that he did sincerely apologize for and tried to alleviate. The examples are many: his apology in the Pilot for saying that their mom was dead, his apology for running away in "Scarecrow," his apology in "Something Wicked" for questioning why Dean followed John's orders and saying that he understood why Dean did it, his general understanding concerning John's death and his desire to help Dean through that, and his coming around at the end of "What Is..." where Sam realized that the hunting life was worth it and that he would rather have the close relationship with Dean despite all of the cost... and telling Dean that, and that Dean was strong for coming back. Sam sometimes got gagging responses from Dean, but he kept telling Dean that kind of stuff anyway. In general, I remember much more of these types of instances than ones where Sam used his words as a weapon. I even thought Sam was pretty forgiving about the deal thing even though Dean wasn't all that apologetic about it - or at all actually at the time.

 

Unfortunately once Sam wasn't able to save Dean at the end of season 3 - and starting with "Mystery Spot" - he never was quite the same. He became more hardened and less likely to share those kinds of things with Dean. And once Dean (understandably) lost his faith and trust in Sam, I think Sam closed himself off a little bit more. I liked season 5, because Sam did try again and finally did succeed in getting a little of that sharing back, but I understand that's not how everyone sees it.

 

As for "Dark Side..." Sam was a kid. Of course he didn't think about the consequences for Dean at that time, and might have even justified it by thinking that Dean might even be happy for a while to not have to look after his little brother all the time. And that's what he told Dean in that episode - that he didn't look at it that way. For Sam, running away had to do with the conflict with John and wanting something else. It wasn't against Dean. And Sam assumed that Dean knew that. That Dean took it personally didn't occur to Sam, because for Sam it wasn't personal against Dean. It was that Sam at the time wanted something else. And it had little to do with Sam then (in season 5), because Sam had entirely changed his outlook on everything by then (everybody Loves a Clown, What Is..., Afterschool Special, etc.). So, for me,  it was an understandable misunderstanding. Dean was hurt by what he was seeing and assumed Sam felt the same way now, whereas Sam had moved on and thought that Dean understood that that was all in the past and was never really against Dean anyway. And it was in character for both of them to feel that way, and they both had a point. That's how I saw that episode anyway.

[Aeryn13]

Brought over from the All Seasons thread

 

n one of Aeryn's favorite speech, Sam acknowledged Dean was better than himself and their father. Bobby acknowledged it in another 'favorite' speech as well as when forced to tell the truth in S6.  Now in that latter case, he said Sam was currently better -- but we know now that was because he was soulless at the time.

 

In the first case, the writers made very, very sure to make that out as just Sam giving nice lipservice to poor little Dean who couldn`t be trusted with an actual hero`s quest like closing the gates of hell. For one because he failed to kill a hellhound and had to be saved. And secondly, because he was apparently mentally unfit to do so. That`s what it boiled down to. The two episodes following this showed Dean to be terrible a thunting. I can`t remember who wrote that first Trial episode but they can take their speech and shove it up their ass as far as I`m concerned.

Bobby might have been saying this because Sam was soulless but that`s not how that message was conveyed. It was supposed to say to the audience that a writerly mouthpiece like Bobby thought Sam was the superior hunter. Again, can`t remember the writer but they, too, can shove it where the sun don`t shine. 

 

I'll summarize it this way: Sam has long been acknowledged to have the "book smarts" but Dean's instincts as a hunter are at least and equalizer in the equation.  If you MUST keep score, that is.

 

Overall, I think that is what the show does. If you have a show with just two leads and they are of the opposite gender, you will usually get sexual tension or an outright romance but if you have two leads of the same gender somehow the most beloved writing shtick seems to be zero sum games, versus writing and nothing but keeping score. And then they reap what they sow offscreen. Not a big surprise IMO.

If Dean is ever really acknowledged for the unique part that he brings to hunting and not have it usurped by other characters who have their own shtick but suddenly can also perfectly do what he brings to the table while the reverse isn`t true, it would be a happy-making episode for me. Maybe I need to wait till episode 300 or something.

[AwesomO4000]

I commented on this, Aeryn, over on the "All Episodes" thread.

 

Summary: The Bobby one, especially, for me would be troubling if that was their message, because that wasn't even Sam, but a psychopathic version of Sam. Who Bobby couldn't even tell wasn't Sam, so already for me his opinion is suspect. But then the show illustrated definitively, in my opinion, a few episodes later in "Unforgiven" that what Bobby thought concerning soulless Sam's hunting abilities wasn't even true: i.e. that soulless Sam actually wasn't that great of a hunter and in that case made even more monsters and caused an innocent person to become a monster rather than figuring out how to actually do the job - i.e. that he was supposed to cut the heads off to kill that particular monster, but he didn't bother to find that out, because he didn't care about that part of the job (which is actually an important part.)

 

In the first case, the writers made very, very sure to make that out as just Sam giving nice lipservice to poor little Dean who couldn`t be trusted with an actual hero`s quest like closing the gates of hell. For one because he failed to kill a hellhound and had to be saved. And secondly, because he was apparently mentally unfit to do so. That`s what it boiled down to. The two episodes following this showed Dean to be terrible a thunting. I can`t remember who wrote that first Trial episode but they can take their speech and shove it up their ass as far as I`m concerned.

It wasn't like Sam was shown to be that great of a hunter either in the second half of that season (or the first, actually). He needed Dean to send Benny to come bail him out of purgatory after all. Sam apparently wouldn't have lasted a day there according to the show even with Bobby's help.

Edited February 4, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[shang yiet]

Just once, let Dean be the one to ignore warnings from Sam and be proven wrong, wrong, wrong. But it never happens. Anyone Dean trusts will come through in the end. Rogues angels like Cas and Gadreel turn out good, vampire friends turn out sparkly, etc.

 

No, TWoP was not Sam friendly at all. They had their daggers out for him no matter what he did.

[Myrelle]

Just once let Dean remain at the center of a big multi-season myth-arc all the way through to its completion and not be thrown out of it so that it will be assured that Sam can be the lone BDH and the only one who has "strength" enough to vanquish the Big Bad. And just once let Sam be strictly reactive to Dean in the culmination of said mutli-season myth-arc and cheer Dean on to a finish in which success not only means that he might lose Dean forever, but actually depends on Sam losing Dean forever; and let Sam then understand how that kind of a sacrifice, that he so derided Dean for in that horrid Purge speech, hurts every bit as much as every sacrifice Sam has ever made before-maybe more. 

 

And I don't even care if this happens because Dean ignores Sam's warnings and Sam is proven right, right, right. It's an empty and very dubious honor to be "right" so often on this show. And Sam is welcome to it within this multi-season myth-arc, IMO, IF Dean gets to have the same type of heroics that Sam was gifted with in Swan Song. But that will never happen.

[shang yiet]

Before Swan Song heroics must come the fall complete with sleeping with demons and being blamed for the apocalypse.

[Mulva]

No, TWoP was not Sam friendly at all. They had their daggers out for him no matter what he did.

 

And what he didn't actually do, or what he might have done, and every action was subject to the worst interpretation. 

 

I'm still not sure just how and why Sam is solely responsible for the apocalypse when everyone else was actively trying to kill Lilith.

[SueB]

Just once let Dean remain at the center of a big multi-season myth-arc all the way through to its completion and not be thrown out of it so that it will be assured that Sam can be the lone BDH and the only one who has "strength" enough to vanquish the Big Bad.

So Dean being the one (with his Mark of Cain) who went mano a mano with Metatron (a multi-season Big Bad) doesn't count because he got killed and Metatron was put in jail by Cas?

 

And Dean killing Dick Roman doesn't count because it was only one season?

 

And Dean summoning Death to kill him (when Dean himself was the mytharc Big Bad w/ the Mark) doesn't count because Dean didn't die or go to outer space?

 

 

 And just once let Sam be strictly reactive to Dean in the culmination of said mutli-season myth-arc and cheer Dean on to a finish in which success not only means that he might lose Dean forever, but actually depends on Sam losing Dean forever; and let Sam then understand how that kind of a sacrifice, that he so derided Dean for in that horrid Purge speech, hurts every bit as much as every sacrifice Sam has ever made before-maybe more. 

 

So Sam being prepared to have Dean die killing Metatron doesn't count because Dean dying (which he did) wasn't guaranteed?

 

Or does it only count if....

 

Dean gets to have the same type of heroics that Sam was gifted with in Swan Song.

 

... meaning it has to involve a God-level Apocalypse and Dean has to stretch his arms out in a Jesus pose?

 

Seriously.... the narrow definition of "good enough" for a Dean victory to be "relevant" seems nearly impossible to achieve without a completely repetitive plot.

[Myrelle]

Dean has already been blamed for releasing the Darkness, even by the Darkness, herself, and I could weather him sleeping with her easily, even if every other fan in this fandom couldn't, and hated on him over it forever-but ONLY! if he's given the big solo heroics that Sam got in Swan Song.

I no longer care what anyone in this fandom thinks. I just want my favorite actor and character(who also happens to be a lead actor and one of the two main characters on this show) to have a meatier and more PRO!active part in the resolution to the present multi-season long myth-arc. I'd like to see HIS strength to overcome possession and/or a supernatural influence highlighted and pimped by the other characters on this show in a similar way to how Sam's was-something that he and many of his fans were denied big-time that first time around. IOW, since he's clearly being blamed for a part in releasing the darkness(and as he also was in the Apocalypse storyline-until it came time for the redemption part of that storyline, that is-then the blame-dubious as it was then, and as it is this time too, for that matter-was unceremoniously dropped altogether; never to be spoken or written of again. If they're going to blame Dean for things, then he needs and deserves a part in the redemption sl as much as Sam does. It's clear that he feels as much guilt over it as Sam does and tbh, at this point, it's the only real reason that I'm still hanging in there this season(but I'm barely hanging in there, again, at this point-especially considering the spoilers we've been getting).

[SueB]

Personally, I'm convinced we're headed for a Dean BDH moment this season towards the finale.  I think Cas will get a part of that too.  I think they gave Sam a BDH moment mid-season by having him reject Lucifer again.

[Myrelle]

"Seriously.... the narrow definition of "good enough" for a Dean victory to be "relevant" seems nearly impossible to achieve without a completely repetitive plot."

If it's good enough for Sam again, why shouldn't it be good enough for Dean-in this yes, big multi-season arc(and yes, it matters to some of us that it's big and has been running over several season and most importantly-started with Dean at the center of it). And repetitive is these writers' middle names, IMO. I've accepted that. At least the meatier, more proactive role would be switched up in my scenario. But again, I'm 99% sure this won't happen. It's not how these writers roll. Most Deanfans will likely be lucky and happy if Dean gets to be more than strictly Sam's support system at the end of this one-myself included.

I think you may have missed the greater point that I was trying to make in response to the other poster's wishes-that being that if Dean has to share every heroic and defining characterstic and/or trait that he has with Sam(and sundry other characters on this show) than I'd like to see the writing have Sam share his most heroic and defining qualities(of which Sam is endowed with in the written words that are actually spoken of by other characters, I might add) with Dean, too. As it stands now, Dean "always" being right is 1)in question(as per your own post on another thread) and 2)rarely noticed or remarked upon by the other characters, when he is.

"Personally, I'm convinced we're headed for a Dean BDH moment this season towards the finale. I think Cas will get a part of that too. I think they gave Sam a BDH moment mid-season by having him reject Lucifer again."

I thought so too. But I'm less hopeful now after reading Carver's most recent descriptions of what's coming up for each character in their respective arcs. But that is for the spoiler/spec thread, I suppose.

[Omegamom]

Being bi-brother-ly means rarely feeling bitter. I may be hair-trigger about some things in life right now (having a hormonal teenage daughter in the house will do that to you; I need Jody around to talk me down), but I think in re Supernatural I'll just go happily trudging along singing "Dean and Sam, Sam and Dean" in a syrupy sweet manner. Kinda like the opening to the Dean and Sam sitcom.

My only bitterness stems from the fact that I ship Destiel. And the whole "no-one seems to notice that Cas isn't Cas" storyline -- including no-one bothering to think that Dad!Cas should be involved when Claire calls in a panic over monsters. And Charlie. I'll be bitter over that for a long, long time.

But the boys? They're both heroes, in my book. They're fascinating, multi-layered characters, that have contradictory responses to some things and to each other, which is only human.

I'll just be sitting over here, humming "Kumbaya", and hoping they don't go all romance-y with Dean and Amara.

[Aeryn13]

 

 

So Dean being the one (with his Mark of Cain) who went mano a mano with Metatron (a multi-season Big Bad) doesn't count because he got killed and Metatron was put in jail by Cas?

And Dean killing Dick Roman doesn't count because it was only one season?

And Dean summoning Death to kill him (when Dean himself was the mytharc Big Bad w/ the Mark) doesn't count because Dean didn't die or go to outer space?

 

How does the first one count as a victory for Dean? Dean didn`t defeat Metatron and saved the world. IF the world was in much danger. They didn`t really establish it.

 

The second one does count but not on the same level of Suck Song. It at least has an extinction class event. But it was downplayed within the episode. The moment itself wasn`t played like a big BDH moment. It was a happenstance kill, not a Chosen One kill. And it didn`t come at the end of a five year mytharc. So, it counts for say 20 % of SS.

 

The last one doesn`t count because how was Dean saving the world in any way? I certainly didn`t for a moment think the entire world was in danger from Dean with the Mark.  . 

 

 

 

... meaning it has to involve a God-level Apocalypse and Dean has to stretch his arms out in a Jesus pose?

Seriously.... the narrow definition of "good enough" for a Dean victory to be "relevant" seems nearly impossible to achieve without a completely repetitive plot.

 

I don`t care if he stretches his arms out or not but yes, a God-level apocalypse - which we technically could have with Amara, they just need to establish her more as a valid threat. Dean being the only one who could do it - which we technically also easily could have if they do something more with their bond in the narrative. And Dean being the physically active part of the world-saving quest - again, easy, see point 2.

 

They do repetitive plots all the time. Why, when it comes to Dean, is it always too much to ask if they do it just ONE TIME for his benefit? Why is it too much to ask if he gets something another character gets in abundance? I`m asking because I really don`t understand why it is so horrible to want my favourite character getting the limelight in a big way. 

 

He was thrown aside like trash in the first five-year mytharc. He wasn`t even considered for the Trials - according to Carver, And the Mark of Cain came and went with nothing big really accomplished in the narrative. Other than Dean apparently sharing the blame for the Darkness. 

 

Meanwhile, even at Comic Con, the writers said they were revisiting a plot for Sam fans had been waiting for for a long time. Obviously Lucifer and the cage and everything. Oh joy, they actively try and follow Sam-fan wishes but only them.    

[catrox14]

 

No, TWoP was not Sam friendly at all. They had their daggers out for him no matter what he did.

 

That must have been before I joined TWoP but I'm a relative late comer to the SPN commentariat as I only started watching in 2013. Maybe there was a shift.  Interesting.

[Demented Daisy]

No, TWoP was not Sam friendly at all. They had their daggers out for him no matter what he did.

 

Well, then, it's a good thing we're not there any more, isn't it?

 

Sorry for the delay on the "sorry" list, everyone.  Woke up Tuesday with -- I don't know.  Some sort of yucky sickness.  Spent most of the last few days in bed, apart from taking care of the pups.  Still not feeling better, but I thought I would at least check in.  With any luck, I'll get back to the list tomorrow.

[AwesomO4000]

How does the first one count as a victory for Dean? Dean didn`t defeat Metatron and saved the world. IF the world was in much danger. They didn`t really establish it.

 

True, Dean didn't defeat Metatron directly, but he bought Castiel time to find the tablet - which was the source of Metatron's power - and destroy it. If Metatron hadn't been down their speechifying and gloating to Dean and then actually having to fight Dean because Dean was mark-powered up, he probably would've been back in his cushy office where he could've kept Castiel away from the tablet easily and gone on winning over the angels like he had been doing. Once Metatron's power was gone, due to the time Dean bought Cas, Metatron was just an angel again and Castiel had a chance to defeat him. It could be argued that this was just an assist, but it was a big assist, in my opinion, and was certainly quite a bit better than being knocked unconscious and missing the fight entirely. Even Gadreel had a much bigger moment than that.

 

As for Metatron being established as a threat, I thought the show made that pretty clear. He stated very clearly that his objective was to wipe out humanity, established that with the tablet he could and would likely do it, and the angels were being shown as being quite clueless and ready to follow whatever it was Metatron was going to have them do.

 

The second one does count but not on the same level of Suck Song. It at least has an extinction class event. But it was downplayed within the episode. The moment itself wasn`t played like a big BDH moment. It was a happenstance kill, not a Chosen One kill. And it didn`t come at the end of a five year mytharc. So, it counts for say 20 % of SS.

 

It's a matter of perspective. Dean ending up in purgatory, to me, was an aspect of a Big Damn Hero moment - as was his arc in purgatory where he went on an epic journey to find Castiel. And in my opinion, "Swan Song" was not really the end of a 5-year mytharc. I'm pretty sure that the angels hadn't even been considered back in season 1, and considering they were a big part of the apocalypse storyline, I consider them separate. The YED storyline was the first two years. Azazel had his own plans for a demon army and whatever havoc he was going to do to the world. If the series had ended in season 2 with Dean killing the YED, that would've been a fitting conclusion, since there hadn't even been a hint at that point of any further endgame beyond YED's plans. Fans could've imagined Sam and Dean going off to hunt the escaped demons and finding a way to get Dean out of his deal. The End. Even season 3 - which was about Dean's deal and trying to stop him from going to hell, gave no real clue as to any further endgame at that point, since we had no idea what Lilith wanted or why. So as Dean even pointed out in "Monster At the End..." again it could've ended right there - "it's such a complete series" - with no real mytharc being left hanging per se.

 

The apocalypse storyline started officially in my opinion in season 4 when it and the angels were introduced. That it - from what I understand - wasn't even potentially the original plotline before the strike and truncated season 3 happened, to me, is further evidence that it wasn't really a 5-year arc at all, since it wasn't even how the story had originally been planned to go (I think). So from my perspective, it was a two-year arc in a 5 year run for the show runner. Just as Gamble had two separate arcs in her run and Carver has had multiple arcs in his run so far.

 

They do repetitive plots all the time. Why, when it comes to Dean, is it always too much to ask if they do it just ONE TIME for his benefit? Why is it too much to ask if he gets something another character gets in abundance? I`m asking because I really don`t understand why it is so horrible to want my favourite character getting the limelight in a big way.

 

It isn't. But neither do I think it's too much to ask that my (slightly) favorite character not have to be the one to make all of the "bad choices" all of the time which lead to the huge apocalyptic problems. Why is Sam the one who's choices are generally "bad" no matter what he does? (See season 1 for example - even not killing John turned out to be "bad." Similar thing with season 2 and not killing Jake.)

 

I'm also not sure what you mean about "abundance." Sam saved the world - with help - one time. After being the one to raise Lucifer in the first place. Dean killed YED, sure with a little help, but YED wasn't even his fault. He was helping to fix the problem started by Mary (though we didn't know that at the time), fate, and to a lesser extent John. Dean also killed Dick Roman, again fixing a problem started by someone else. If he again fixes the Darkness problem - which as you pointed out if Dean with the mark wasn't really all that much of a threat, then Sam "curing" him and causing the Darkness because of it, is once again a problem caused by someone else: Sam - then he'll again be the hero while having little to do with the cause. Which would be fine, if some of the other major characters also got to do this, but they don't. Whenever Castiel or Sam "save the world," it's from something they caused. Which I don't even mind per se. I'm just pointing out that Dean is already in a unique Poistion in that regard. He also got to fix some mid-level problems that he and Sam started - Abaddon - or just happened - Eve. And he got to save Sam in a big way without world endangering consequences, something Sam doesn't generally get to return in the narrative (he generally fails, gives up (still hate that storyline with a passion), or causes an apocalypse. He got a minor save - de-demoning Dean - but even that was pointed out immediately by Cas as a temporary fix.

 

My point being: Dean may not have had that, one huge BDH moment (though I'd call YED close and Dick Roman was pretty good), but he's also not had to endure the epic, world-endangering screw ups the other characters have while still getting his hero moments. So, in my opinion, it at the least evens out.

 

He was thrown aside like trash in the first five-year mytharc.

If it is a 5-yar mytharc, YED was part of that, and in my opinion, counts. Sam wasn't a part of that really either - except maybe killing Jake, though for me, that's questionable, since it wasn't really all that necessary when Sam did it, and it didn't really save anyone. Sam could've easily let Jake live with little change to the outcome.

 

He wasn`t even considered for the Trials - according to Carver,

 

You mean the trails that were never going to be finished anyway? Why would anyone want Dean to have that storyline? Then there'd be complaints of how Dean appears to be "chosen," but never gets to finish anything. I wouldn't have minded if Sam hadn't had that storyline either, since it didn't go anywhere except to make Sam a damsel Dean needed to save again. Though I did like the episode where Sam confessed that he felt tainted. That's about it.

 

 

Meanwhile, even at Comic Con, the writers said they were revisiting a plot for Sam fans had been waiting for for a long time. Obviously Lucifer and the cage and everything. Oh joy, they actively try and follow Sam-fan wishes but only them.

 

Well they certainly weren't fulfilling my wishes with anything that happened in season 8... or 9 for that matter. Or having Sam start an apocalypse... again. So I think  maybe throwing us that small bone was about 3 1/2 seasons coming if you ask me. I mean we had to endure Sam not looking for Dean or Kevin and the Amelia arc, then hypocrite and/or pissy Sam in season 9, and short-sighted, apocalypse starting Sam in season 10, so... again it's a matter of perspective.

 

than I'd like to see the writing have Sam share his most heroic and defining qualities(of which Sam is endowed with in the written words that are actually spoken of by other characters, I might add) with Dean, too.

 

Dean has plenty of his own heroic qualities and isn't given half of the - sometimes random - character flaws that Sam and Castiel have to overcome. I guess I'm just not seeing this over-flowing other character praise that you are talking about.

 

As it stands now, Dean "always" being right is 1)in question(as per your own post on another thread) and 2)rarely noticed or remarked upon by the other characters, when he is.

 

What wasn't he right about? He was right about Lucifer, and he knows he has a problem when it comes to Amara. And if other characters always remarked about how right Dean is any more than they already do - and ironically a recent episode opened with those exact worlds from Sam - for me, I think it might get annoying. Sam tells Dean "you were right" plenty of times. As does I believe Castiel. I'm not sure what more is needed.

 

 

Well, that made me feel better anyway.

 

Edited to add: I'm so sorry that you are feeling crappy, Demented. Hopefully your pups are keeping you company while you rest.

Edited February 4, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

 

You mean the trails that were never going to be finished anyway? Why would anyone want Dean to have that storyline?

 

Because the character has never been more pointless background noise in the entirety of the show than the second half of Season 8. Baring the Season 5 Finale. I would always rather take Dean having a storyline than that.

 

And after Purgatory was dropped as it related to Dean as early as episode 2, after that it became the mystery of Cas storyline, Dean only got a story halfway point in Season 9. That is also 1 and a half years of Carvernatural for me where I felt permanently smacked in the face. 

 

In hindsight, they did little really with the Mark of Cain storyline. In the end, did it have any more of a purpose than the trials narratively? Not until five minutes to midnight they pulled the Darkness out of their asses. Demon!Dean was scrapped after 3 measly episodes. This year`s mid-Season Finale focused heavily on Sam and his Lucifer connection. Dean was a footnote storywise in the Opener. Last Season`s mid-Season Finale when Dean had the mytharc and the promos made it sound as if, gosh golly, the mid-Season duo episode would thusly focus on him, what happened? It was about Claire. And Cas. The year before that was the Gadreel reveal and again, Dean was a completely pointless side character there.

 

It`s uncanny, not only do they have no use for him in other people`s mytharc but when it should actually be his time in the narrative, they still rather give the story to side characters. 

 

I just can`t take another Finale like the Season 5 one. Unless they give me a time machine so I can go back and stop me from watching this show in the first place. 

 

 

My point being: Dean may not have had that, one huge BDH moment (though I'd call YED close and Dick Roman was pretty good), but he's also not had to endure the epic, world-endangering screw ups the other characters have while still getting his hero moments. So, in my opinion, it at the least evens out.

 

Even if I thought Dean didn`t have those screw-ups, it wouldn`t even out for me. But since IMO the show manages to pin all the other character`s screw-ups on Dean in the end - they wouldn`t have done bla bla, if he hadn`t done so and so or if he had been more supportive or if he hadn`t been mean to them first -, it`s just a hypothetical question for me.

 

Also the little victories Dean HAS gotten are either completely ignored later on or suddenly turn into "we" stuff. As do the screw-ups. It`s "we released the Darkness". If you ask Amara, it`s only Dean really. 

 

There was a scene in Season I-don`t-even-know-anymore where Crowley ranted about the Winchesters and as a reason listed all the big kills SAM had made. And that was shortly after Eve (so probably Season 6). Not one of Dean`s "wins" made it in.  

 

I believe the writers are subpar but even they know that "tell" always sticks more with viewers than "show". Take the intelligence issue. Sam went to College and is always acknowledged as the book smart one so really he can have blunders every other episode and most viewers will still readily believe him to be a genius. Because that is what is verbalized to them.

 

Dean on the other hand can show creative problem-solving, strategical skills or even the occassional sigh of traditionally acknowleged intelligence and still he is considered not bright by lots, probably most, because that is the "tell". He could figure out intellectual puzzles for 90 % of an episode and if you had two characters in it calling him an idiot who didn`t go to College and "only" has a GED, that is what would stick. 

 

He was also shown to build little technical thingamgics once upon a time but even if he build a thousand of them and all got them patented, you only need ten minutes of an "Dean is such a luddite and doesn`t know technology at all" episode and this will be the perception that sticks.

 

The writers aren`t entirely stupid. They do that on purpose. With Sam, I think it`s more that their pimping backfires too often. It`s not that they want to make him look bad but quite the opposite, they just fail at it.  

Edited February 4, 2016 by Aeryn13