Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Demented Daisy]

I can't begin to tell you how many viewer comments here and elsewhere that were about viewers HATING Dean and still HATE Dean for doing that. That equated him with being a rapist or an accomplice to rape for violating Sam's agency. 

 

Here?  Who called him a rapist here?  Please, stand up and be counted.  I'd love to read that justification.

 

In the meantime, I don't care that people hate Dean, for whatever reason.  That means nothing to me because I can make up my own mind about how I feel about a character.  And I like it when Dean takes care of Sam.  I like it when he makes him a sandwich or puts him to bed when he's drunk or carries him when he's too injured to walk.  Or any number of things that people do for their loved ones.  It has nothing to do with making rash, irrational decisions.

 

Selling your soul to bring someone back to life is not "supporting" someone.

 

Forcing angel possession is not "support".

 

Killing Death is not "support".

 

Now, if you want to talk about the stupid decisions Dean has made in "Save Sammy Mode", we would probably agree.  But I have zero problem with Dean in "Support Sammy Mode".

[Aeryn13]

 

Now, if you want to talk about the stupid decisions Dean has made in "Save Sammy Mode", we would probably agree.  But I have zero problem with Dean in "Support Sammy Mode".

 

But if Dean`s entire purpose in the show is supposed to be "revolving around Sam", then for me it`s natural that the two go together. Or significantly reduce his screentime so you only see him as much as say Alfred in Batman movies. He could bring Sam a sandwich at the beginning of the episode, then Sam goes off to have Chosen One adventure as the episode and in the end Dean is back to bandage his wounds.

 

If all Dean should be is support, then there is no room for him in the actual storylines. And several mytharc episodes already play out this way. Season 8 Finale? Dean is handed over to Cas because Sam needs to complete his trial story with Crowley on his own. Cas is just in waiting mode at this point so Dean can join him for the boring part. As soon as Cas` false angel trial story picks up again, Dean needs to go because he isn`t needed there either. Noone needed the character in that episode for their stories. He was only allowed to come in to screw it up in the end. Fun times.   

[Demented Daisy]

But if Dean`s entire purpose in the show is supposed to be "revolving around Sam", then for me it`s natural that the two go together. Or significantly reduce his screentime so you only see him as much as say Alfred in Batman movies. He could bring Sam a sandwich at the beginning of the episode, then Sam goes off to have Chosen One adventure as the episode and in the end Dean is back to bandage his wounds.

 

If all Dean should be is support, then there is no room for him in the actual storylines.    

 

I really don't see it as an all or nothing situation.  I certainly never suggested that Dean be no more than a nursemaid.

 

At the same time, I see Dean taking care of Sam as a story in itself.  People don't like that story, fair enough.  But it shows another facet of his character, IMO.

[mertensia]

But the problem is many want that to be his only facet- including, apparently, some writers.

[Aeryn13]

 

But it shows another facet of his character, IMO.

 

These days, it seems that ultimately it is all there is to the character. That`s why I desperately want a new facet, anything else. And since it has been little explored in the past, especially in comparism to Sam, I do prefer a supernatural tie. For me, that is new for Dean`s character. They dip their toes in the pond but quickly draw them out again. Whereas for Sam`s character, it would be new if he was a sidekick.

 

Of course, I must admit that I was thouroughly over special!Sam and support!Dean as early as Season 2. That`s when I reached my limit with that trope. 

[DittyDotDot]

I'm sorry, but I can never not laugh at the notion that Dean is just a sidekick. Dean drives the car; more often than not is the leader of their little rag-tag group; and generally speaking does most of the saving. To me, that's no Alfred.

 

IMO, the show had never truly revolved around Sam. I realize that probably was the intent at the beginning of the show, but the execution never truly sold me on that notion. I think the balance came when they started shifting the POV to Dean towards the end of the first season. Yes, the main plot was "what is wrong with Sammy" at that time, but we see it through Dean's eyes and the effect it has on Dean more than anything. That doesn't make him Sam's nursemaid, IMO, that makes him equal in the story.

 

IMO, Dean has always had his own storyline--whether is was intended or not by the PTB--just because it's not the storyline you would like to see doesn't mean it's not his own. 

[Aeryn13]

 

Yes, the main plot was "what is wrong with Sammy" at that time, but we see it through Dean's eyes and the effect it has on Dean more than anything.

 

I don`t attribute much to who has the POV. Especially if that is just a pair of binoculars to look at another character`s plot. Or how the narrator feels about that other person`s plot. Don`t really care. It`s still a plot about another person, making them the focal point for me.

 

First time I thought the show was truly great was Lazarus Rising. There had been good episodes before but this made me sit up and go "wow. For the simple reason because Castiel came in, revealed himself to be an angel and (supposedly, I was young and stupidly naive back then) handed Dean his own supernatural mytharc. Nothing before had been as good to me.

 

The other two times I felt a spark of that were: Dean goes to Purgatory and Dean gets the Mark of Cain. Joke was on me of course. Both times. 

[Demented Daisy]

These days, it seems that ultimately it is all there is to the character. 

 

Certainly, you are entitled to that interpretation, but it is not one I share.  I haven't seen Dean in "Support Sammy Mode" since S8.  To me, the second half of S9 and the entirety of S10 were about Dean.  Sam's story revolved around Dean during that time, IMO.

 

I have no idea what they're planning for S11, but I doubt it will be completely about Sam's "specialness".  I think it'll be a mash-up of seasons 5 and 7; I suspect they'll need all hands on deck to deal with the Darkness.

 

But mileage always varies.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I can never not laugh at the notion that Dean is just a sidekick. Dean drives the car; more often than not is the leader of their little rag-tag group; and generally speaking does most of the saving. To me, that's no Alfred.

 

IMO, the show had never truly revolved around Sam. I realize that probably was the intent at the beginning of the show, but the execution never truly sold me on that notion. I think the balance came when they started shifting the POV to Dean towards the end of the first season. Yes, the main plot was "what is wrong with Sammy" at that time, but we see it through Dean's eyes and the effect it has on Dean more than anything. That doesn't make him Sam's nursemaid, IMO, that makes him equal in the story.

 

IMO, Dean has always had his own storyline--whether is was intended or not by the PTB--just because it's not the storyline you would like to see doesn't mean it's not his own. 

 

 

Shockingly, I wholeheartedly agree.

[Myrelle]

I don`t attribute much to who has the POV. Especially if that is just a pair of binoculars to look at another character`s plot. Or how the narrator feels about that other person`s plot. Don`t really care. It`s still a plot about another person, making them the focal point for me.

 

First time I thought the show was truly great was Lazarus Rising. There had been good episodes before but this made me sit up and go "wow. For the simple reason because Castiel came in, revealed himself to be an angel and (supposedly, I was young and stupidly naive back then) handed Dean his own supernatural mytharc. Nothing before had been as good to me.

 

The other two times I felt a spark of that were: Dean goes to Purgatory and Dean gets the Mark of Cain. Joke was on me of course. Both times.

 

These are my thoughts also.

 

I've loved the show when Dean was allowed to be his own person and when Dean had the myth-arc. I'm over Dean(and more so, Jensen) being stuck in the support only role. And the only reason that he has to be stuck there is because of the writers' refusal to allow him to be as important to the supernatural element of the myth-arc as Sam. They can support each other AND both be supernaturally-connected to the myth-arc AND both have a POV thus retaining the humanity that this show is/was supposedly and primarily built on, even while being affected by the supernatural aspect. And they could do this in a way that retains each character's individuality. and the show could still go on albeit with two lead actors and two main characters instead of just the one. They had the perfect opportunity to do this very thing in S4-5 and again in S8 and again at the present time, but I'm now pretty much convinced that someone(s) BTS of this show doesn't want this, which is a shame because IMO they were on the cusp of greatness back in S4 and could have achieved it, if they would have just continued to let the story write itself, as I feel they were doing(at least as regards the myth-arc) right up until the disastrously written end of S5.

 

I'm still hoping, foolish as that may seem, that this season will be about re-doing S5 so that both characters will have an equal part in the redemption arc that is clearly coming. We'll see, I guess.

 

And FWIW, I love the thought of Dean as the leader of Team Free Will, if that's the primary role that the writers now think that they've written for him, but if that is indeed supposed to be his primary role, than this needs to be verbally acknowledged by the others; AND as the leader, his should be the last word when matters arise that cause dissension within the ranks-because that's the role of a respected leader in any facet of life. This doesn't mean that there can't or shouldn't be discussion, but in the end, the leader decides even when the decision is difficult and those who follow him should respect his decisions-IF they respect his decision-making  ability, that is.

[7kstar]

I'm sorry, but I can never not laugh at the notion that Dean is just a sidekick. Dean drives the car; more often than not is the leader of their little rag-tag group; and generally speaking does most of the saving. To me, that's no Alfred.

 

IMO, Dean has always had his own storyline--whether is was intended or not by the PTB--just because it's not the storyline you would like to see doesn't mean it's not his own. 

With this logic the same could be said about Sam.  This is my problem.  I started out as a brother fan.  I rooted for Sam and Dean.  Then somewhere along the line I started liking Dean more.  I should relate to Sam more on some levels but Dean hits in a way that I relate more to him.  Plus I love the eye candy. 

 

So I'm tired of which brother has the better storyline.  Don't care.  I am in waiting mode.  If the purpose of this season makes the darkness interesting for 3 eps at the beginning, a few at the middle and the solution at the end of the season then I could get on board.

 

What is the purpose to Sam's storyline...I think for Carver it was let's show Sam from Mystery Spot.  His single mindedness.  Once he makes up his mind there isn't any listening to anyone.  He has done this every season.  You can love or hate it about him.

 

For those that hate Dean for X, Hate Sam for Y...I'm not there.  Period.  I still love both brothers.  If the narrative allows for GROWTH which is a big IF???  --  Then perhaps the storyline could get interesting.  The characters are compelling and that is where I want the storyline to go.  Bring me a compelling reason to love the brothers again.  They both suck right now in equal measures.  They have destroyed the world at the expense of themselves.  Now they must do something to repair that so they can be the hero's of the story again.

 

Dean is a natural born LEADER  he does see things that others miss.  I think for some of the writers he is the brother / sister they were jealous of.  Sam has a talent of finding information and the cheerleader when Dean can't see to go on.  They have natural strengths that work together.  If they will unite they can do amazing things.  This is why so many fans love them.

 

I understand both fans feeling let down.  They have been.  Dean has gotten the shaft and been given crap storylines.  Sam has gotten the shaft and been given crap storylines.  Honestly for me it is pretty equal despite the times I've been told otherwise.  I'm not calling someone out on this forum nor do I feel you need to agree with me.

 

We are fans of this show and we are drawn to it for individual reasons.  Some may be the same and create unity.  Other times it will never feel that way.  I hold my views as truth over someone else.  I expect others to feel the same.   I'm also fine with some of us never agreeing.  But I think life lessons that you've dealt with can sway you one way or the other.

 

Hopefully this makes sense and I did not intentionally mean to offend.  But Han Solo could have a story all to himself that would be interesting.  I would even enjoy watching his adventures.  I think Dean is the same.  The years he was apart from Sam, there is much dirt to craft there. 

 

Personally I think Carver has kind of ignored 6 & 7 and just did his take of what happened after season 5.  It makes sense on some weird level.  :)

[Aeryn13]

 

But Han Solo could have a story all to himself that would be interesting

.

You know there is a Han Solo anthology movie in the works, scheduled for release in 2018, I think?  

[catrox14]

Demented Daisy, when I said "here" I was thinking of TWoP only because many people from there are here now and the physical format is similar. So my bad for conflating the two sites. But here at PTV since I don't think I've seen the specific word "rapist"  being used but I'd have to go back and look. I was always taken aback by those accusations. There is thought out there that possession of any kind in the show is a rape allegory. Consent and agency issues I see. But actual rape....other than when Sam and Dean were both in Hell and likely suffered sexual torture as implied by both Alistair and Lucifer.   Anyway, I don't subscribe to that viewpoint but just saying it is out there and it does exist beyond tumblr at what IMO are good forums that are relatively respected.

 

I don't think anyone here has ever said or  implied it was disgraceful or shameful to be in support and spend a life supporting others IRL. I'm  hopeful that those who are in those roles get support in return.  Some people thrive in being that for other people and if they are healthy enough themselves to be in that role without needing something different, that's great.  Unfortunately, I don't think Dean is one of those people who can do that and not fall into the "codependent" side of things, for lack of a better world.

 

As to the Support Sam/Save Sam dynamic, I don't think Dean can separate those two things. His attachment to Sam comes out of a pretty ingrained place that started when he was 4 years old. I think for Dean it's an innate response to be a good big brother/father combined with a learned behavior because he wanted to be like John that he can't let Sam die. As he said "It's just not within him to do that" for good or bad.

 

He's a good guy that is all layers of fucked up which is awesome for character depth.  He always tries to do the right thing as he sees it and sometimes he just acts out of love, compulsion, fear and loyalty. Sometimes it works and sometimes you end up in Hell and jump starting the Apocalypse and becoming a demon that had no real teeth except for like 5 freaking minutes. (yay).

 

As to POV, I often think that the idea of POV comes up when a character does shitty things that we don't like or is OOC. I see POV or lack thereof arguments invoked  when viewers are searching for answers to explain why a character does something that isn't being explained on screen to our satisfaction.

 

IMO it become a matter of  'WTF. is character X doing! They would NEVER!"  And it's not being explained well at all, so I'm going to look to the other character seeking that information that is not being given for whatever reasons, either purposefully for the story line or just plain old lazy writing for "reasons".

 

To me POV is not a mytharc, it's just a storytelling thing. It doesn't change that one is a main character and the other is not.  It doesn't matter if I like a "sidekick" character more than a lead character. It doesn't matter if the performance of the "sidekick" makes the "sidekick" a more compelling character or possibly more enjoyable than the lead character, like some view Luke Skywalker and Han Solo. 

 

In Supernatural the story has always been and is still about Sam Winchester.  He was/is the Chosen One. He's also the goat at times. He fails at tiimes but he's still given a redemption arc.  He's never been left to only be remembered for his failures. Even with the Darkness, he's not going to be left with that as his legacy. Sam Winchester is always redeemed.  He's always going to be the Hero.

 

Even with Carver. I think he was  attempting to show us that it was a good choice by Sam to be on his own and not look for Dean. But he botched the execution by not having Sam look for Dean even cursorily. I don't think he anticipated that backlash that brought.  And that was a big mistake that did neither Sam nor Dean any favors.

 

That said, by the end of s8 Sam was again the hero willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good like he did in Swan Song.  Dean was back to the codependent brother who couldn't live with his brother dead and it lead to all kinds of awful things. Just like back in s2 when Dean sold his soul.  It's romantic that Dean did that but he fucked up all kinds of stuff because of that romantic ideal. 

 

I'm grateful that Jensen made Dean more than what he was in the first half of s1. That he brought layers to Dean. Because honestly, I wouldn't have stuck around if we hadn't gotten to Dead in the Water and Phantom Traveler. I found the main character to be annoying in s1. I know he worked for a great amount of the viewers because he was "sweet" and empathetic and sympathetic and Sam lost his girlfriend and now his mean big brother is dragging him back into a life he wanted out of ". That wasn't something I was particularly interested in seeing and I was not huge on the horror stuff as it is.

Edited September 20, 2015 by catrox14

[Wynne88]

I agree with 7kstar.  There is nothing wrong with people having drastically different views of the brothers and the storylines.  It makes for interesting reading.

 

For my part, while I could understand the gripes about Dean's role in earlier seasons, the last season and a half centered pretty much entirely around him.  The first 3 episodes of season 10, and again toward the end of the season, some of the focus shifted to what Sam was doing in response to what was going on with Dean, but to me that just seemed a role reversal of all the times Dean was reacting to what was going on with Sam.  

 

Anyway, maybe this season the writers actually will find a balance.  One can always hope.

[catrox14]

The unsatisfying part of Dean's arc in s9 and s10 is that it went nowhere ultimately for Dean. It's frustrating that he had quite literally nothing to do with the Mark being removed. I think that's why I ended up liking demon!Dean.  He didn't get there on his own, but once he was there, he was making choices ONLY for himself and as awful as it was, it was pretty great and interesting for me.

 

So in the end IMO s8-s10 were ultimately about Sam redeeming himself for not looking for Dean in s8. It messed up other things but he made up for not looking for Dean. Now if Dean had actually DONE something useful with his demon!Dean status or had been responsible for removing the Mark himself or not killed Death to save Sam then I would feel differently.  But it just feels like Dean took a little Field Trip to the Land of Death and Destruction...for what? 

Edited September 20, 2015 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

...And I like it when Dean takes care of Sam.  I like it when he makes him a sandwich or puts him to bed when he's drunk or carries him when he's too injured to walk.  Or any number of things that people do for their loved ones.  It has nothing to do with making rash, irrational decisions.

 

Selling your soul to bring someone back to life is not "supporting" someone.

 

Forcing angel possession is not "support".

 

Killing Death is not "support".

 

Now, if you want to talk about the stupid decisions Dean has made in "Save Sammy Mode", we would probably agree.  But I have zero problem with Dean in "Support Sammy Mode".

 

I agree. I hope I didn't imply that I thought these things were "support." My general complaint was that the current writers sometimes seem (for me) to equate or at least confound these things. In my mind, rash decisions should have consequences. Unfortunately, when the narrative is inconsistent about those consequences - but somehow in a consistent way - I get confused on what they are trying to tell me. And this new thing where Dean makes rash decisions and most things turn out right and markedly better - to me - is a frustrating and confusing as heck message, especially when other characters (Sam, Castiel, even the characters of the week*) do it, not only is it bad... it's really, really bad.

 

* Most memorable in my head: the Ghostfacer dudes and werewolf woman concerning her sister.

 

These days, it seems that ultimately it is all there is to the character. That`s why I desperately want a new facet, anything else. And since it has been little explored in the past, especially in comparism to Sam, I do prefer a supernatural tie. For me, that is new for Dean`s character. They dip their toes in the pond but quickly draw them out again. Whereas for Sam`s character, it would be new if he was a sidekick.

 

For me, Sam has been put mainly into support / sidekick mode since early in the first half of season 9.* Almost everything that happened since has been for the support of Dean's character arc and the mark of Cain story. There was little if any story equivalent to say killing Eve or Dick Roman or the Yellow Eyed Demon. Dean still did all of the major killing, and still had interactions with Castiel and large ones with Crowley oh and also Gadreel. Unfortunately, in my opinion, Sam was not allowed to be good at being the sidekick either. In fact, to me, the writers made Sam a total disaster at it in almost every respect. So now not only is Dean the main arc character with the supernatural aspect and killing all of the bad guys and a lot of the POV (until the second half of season 10 where the POV shifted finally to Sam), Sam is the bumbling sidekick who gets left behind, is too late, or just makes everything worse and can't even provide support properly to his brother... so apparently there is something a lot worse than being made the loyal sidekick. Being made to be the colossal failure at being the loyal sidekick.

 

* I consider Gadreel a separate character. And Sam being a host to Gadreel was mostly to further Dean's storyline towards taking on the mark, in my opinion. GadreelSam likely could have been replaced by some other thing that made Dean feel guilty and fall into a downward spiral.

 

In Supernatural the story is still and always has been about Sam Winchester. He's the goat at times, but he's still the Hero and it's still about him.  I still think Carver was attempting to show us that Sam was okay making a choice to not look for Dean in s8. But he botched the execution by not having Sam look for Dean even cursorily. That was a big mistake that did neither Sam nor Dean any favors.

 

In my opinion, Carver not only botched the execution by having Sam not look for Dean. There was also that Sam didn't look for Kevin - didn't even bother to check the messages. Sam was unsupportive of Dean coming back from purgatory, unsupportive of Benny, accusatory (especially concerning Dean's Castiel issue), demanding, unapologetic, whiny, and he was usually the damsel in distress, not the one doing the saving. And I understand this is my opinion only, but it is difficult for me to imagine the author's intent - especially in an episode he wrote - to show that Sam is making an "okay" choice when he includes a lampshading, "humorous" scene calling that character out on his behavior and has Dean call it out seriously just to add to that. That goes beyond botching the execution to me and into intent territory. If the intent was to redeem him later... well that mostly failed or seemed ingenuine, and it was a stupid reasoning anyway.

 

And they could do this in a way that retains each character's individuality. and the show could still go on albeit with two lead actors and two main characters instead of just the one. They had the perfect opportunity to do this very thing in S4-5 and again in S8 and again at the present time, but I'm now pretty much convinced that someone(s) BTS of this show doesn't want this, which is a shame because IMO they were on the cusp of greatness back in S4 and could have achieved it, if they would have just continued to let the story write itself, as I feel they were doing(at least as regards the myth-arc) right up until the disastrously written end of S5.

 

I disagree that the storyline was doing great up until the "disastrously written end of season 5." For me the end of season 5 was made more necessary due to the large mistakes of season 4. In my opinion, the choice in season 4 to shift things mostly over to Sam's bad decisions and to make Dean's story the over the top sympathetic one was where the mistakes were made. In my opinion, if the story wanted the brothers' to be equal in their saving of the world, they needed to make the tone equal in set up as well. This would have been doable. 1) Make Dean's hell experience less over the top 2) make Sam either more supportive, less harsh, or give him more POV 3) not forget that Dean's making the deal in the first place was a legitimate reason for Sam to be angry with Dean - as Demented Daisy said above Dean's deal was not supportive, but the narrative's implied tone that it was somehow supportive and a loving thing to do just made Sam's betrayal of listening to Ruby look that much worse in comparison. In my opinion, the writers wrote themselves into the hole of having Sam doing the majority of the saving at the end of season 5, because they made the problem that had to be solved almost entirely Sam's fault... and that, in my opinion, was the fault of season 4. Season 4's greatness was squashed in many ways, in my opinion, and it was done way early on in the season and only got worse from there.

 

What is the purpose to Sam's storyline...I think for Carver it was let's show Sam from Mystery Spot.  His single mindedness.  Once he makes up his mind there isn't any listening to anyone.  He has done this every season.  You can love or hate it about him.

 

For me, this would be fine if this was Sam's characteristic and if the narrative had something to say about this. But this single-mindedness is also almost exactly the same thing Castiel does in the narrative* - also almost every single season. Both characters "mean well" and get something in their head and insist on doing it. Then they mess up and want desperately to fix it, often messing up again in their single-mindedness to fix it. Sam and Cas just switch off whose turn it is to be single-minded and mess up - unless they are being single-minded and messing up together.

 

But worse, the narrative recently doesn't even have anything consistent to say about this character trait anymore. When Dean is single-minded on something, for example - his insistence on revenge on Dick Roman, taking on the mark of Cain, his insistence that saving Sam via Gadreel was the right thing to do - Dean is right and succeeds. So even Dean shares Sam's single-mindedness. It's just in Dean's case, he's generally right and/or successful when he's single-minded.

 

For me this dilutes not only this being Sam's storyline - since 3 of the 4 main characters are single-minded - it means I don't understand what the message of that storyline is. So, I guess I'm wondering what the conclusion of Sam's storyline is supposed to be in this case? Is it supposed to be that Sam listens to Dean (more, since in daily life he often does anyway), learning that he is wrong to have a single-minded purpose, and instead becomes a follower in order to help save the world? Meh.

 

* Making it almost seem that lately Sam's and Castiel's roles in the storyline are to be a complication for Dean as they consistently mess up and fail to provide him sufficient support, except for when they sometimes almost accidentally - at least in the case of Castiel - save the day (Sam's not so lucky in that recently, since when he gets the chance, he still decides to not do it).

 

Edited to add: Hopefully except for my post below, I've gotten this mostly out of my system. I was trying for a long time to be positive, but I think the end of season 10 has beaten me down. I could use some SueB optimism right now.

Edited September 20, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[AwesomO4000]

So in the end IMO s8-s10 were ultimately about Sam redeeming himself for not looking for Dean in s8. It messed up other things but he made up for not looking for Dean.

 

By doing what Dean asked him - begged him - not to do, lying about it, and thereby starting the apocalypse and other catastrophes? Maybe it's me, but I don't see where that was in any way reedeeming or a good thing. At all. (I'm sorry if that sounded harsh. It's Carver I'm annoyed with.)

 

For me, Sam redeeming himself for season 8 would have included Sam actually helping and supporting Dean. Great non-example was Sam and Cas running out of the house and leaving Dean in there with all of the bad guys and being all surprised at Dean having killed them. In the pre-Carver years, Sam's attempts at support may not have always gone to "Point of No Return" levels of success, but at least there was usually the appearance of competence in there somewhere.

 

If this is Carver's idea of redemption, I really want him to give up being showrunner, because as redemption arcs go, I can imagine very few worse ones.

Edited September 20, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

 

By doing what Dean told him not to do, lying about it, and thereby starting the apocalypse? Maybe it's me, but I missed where that was in any way reedeeming or a good thing. At all.

 

Yes. It is redemption. 

 

The s1-s5 arc ended with Sam making the ultimate sacrifice no matter what else he did. That act erased and made up for everything else he did. It made his demon blood addiction actually positive because he wouldn't have been able to withstand being Lucifer's vessel without it.  It doesn't matter who he ignored, disappointed, pissed off, grossed out, alienated or killed getting to that point. He fought Lucifer and won. He fulfilled his destiny which started in s1  Everyone else, including Dean and Bobby were there in service of getting Sam into that pit to stop the Apocalypse. That's the bottom line. That is a hero's arc.

Sam Winchester will always be a hero for that act.

[AwesomO4000]

Yes. It is redemption. 

 

The s1-s5 arc ended with Sam making the ultimate sacrifice no matter what else he did. That act erased and made up for everything else he did. It made his demon blood addiction actually positive because he wouldn't have been able to withstand being Lucifer's vessel without it.  It doesn't matter who he ignored, disappointed, pissed off, grossed out, alienated or killed getting to that point. He fought Lucifer and won. He fulfilled his destiny which started in s1  Everyone else, including Dean and Bobby were there in service of getting Sam into that pit to stop the Apocalypse. That's the bottom line. That is a hero's arc.

Sam Winchester will always be a hero for that act.

 

I disagree that it doesn't really matter how Sam did it along the way in season 4-5, but I agree that that is what the season 5 finale did as an arc in general. And I agree it gave Sam a much needed heroic moment for sacrificing himself.

 

I was talking about the season 10 finale. I should've clarified by saying "starting the apocalypse... again." It's a pretty crappy redemption arc, in my opinion, when your one good accomplishment is getting the mark of Cain removed from your brother by having thrown caution to the wind to help him at all costs and by doing so succeeding to also cause the Darkness to be called up. That alone would seen to me to be the narrative indicating ..."um Sam, maybe you shouldn't have done everything you could to help your brother? Maybe that was a bad idea?" The addition of an escaped Metatron, dead Charlie, Rowena with the Book of the Dead and the means to use it, a maybe dangerous Crowley, and a cursed Castiel almost seems to be piling on to the "that was the wrong thing to do" vibes at that point.

 

I know I'm looking at it perhaps too straightforwardly, but it seems to me that based on what we got, Sam is going to need a redemption arc to redeem himself from the season 8-10 "redemption arc." And to me that just makes little sense. Am I supposed to think that Sam should have helped Dean get the mark off or not? Because truthfully, I don't know, but based on the results, I'm leaning towards "no, unh uh, and no way."

[catrox14]

Ah I thought you meant the actual Apocalypse arc. Sorry I took that literally.

 

I also think Sam got a personal redemption arc for s8 shown by saving Dean in s10.  Sam didn't have to forgive Dean at all for Dean allowing Gadreel to possess him and I don't know if he really has yet, but he decided to set aside his feelings on that to work to stop Metatron. Then when Dean was demonized IMO Sam got another Mystery Spot to prove that Dean was more important to him than he demonstrated in s8 and what he said in s9. He was shown that yeah he loves Dean and he accepts his status as a hunter now. 

 

And as much as I was like "WTF are you doing Sam" in s10 to be fair to Sam he didn't know anything about the Darkness lurking. No one did except a writer who pulled it out of their ass in the last moment.  And yes, it would have been great for Sam to have stopped and thought about Rowena's spell once he did learn about it he didn't.  And yes if he hadn't called Charlie she might not be dead, but everyone was dumbed down to make sure Charlie could be killed. Charlie could have not left that lair, but she did.   Charlie's death is still only on the Stynes in the end.

 

But in the very end, Sam is returned to hero status because he willingly submitted himself for sacrifice to stop Dean.  The execution was messy but once again the end result is Sam was going to sacrifice his life for others.  That is still weapons-grade sacrifice and that again confirms his hero status. He opened up another problem but he'll be working to fix that too, setting up another redemption arc. 

[7kstar]

My problem is I don't agree.  I don't see Sam getting this great redemption at the end of Season 5.  Because at that point I just didn't care.  Sam was an such an ass. So what he was in the cage. With everything that happens afterwards, it really doesn't mean anything.  Look how many died.  They might have actually saved more life's by becoming Lucifer's & Michael's vessels. 

 

Now I'm suppose to feel sorry for him for being in the cage when Dean's time in hell is now considered a picnic.  All it did was make me angry.  That's it and I didn't care about how Sam suffered. 

 

I think this is the part that Carver may be trying to address.  For those that saw Sam being redeemed for his big mistakes, they are left shaking his head.  But for those of us who felt he still hadn't because he said that what I went through made it even.  Really, I doubt the ones that were left behind to deal with the deaths felt Sam had resolved the issue for them.  Plus now I'm just too sick holy Sam...it was a little too late.

 

So now I'm done with let's fix the mess the writers made.  I just don't care who is to blame and who did what.  I felt manipulated through season 4 & 5.  I didn't feel sympathetic to Sam in season 6 & 7.  @Awsome04000 we don't really agree.

 

For every point you say that Dean gets the hero moment I also heard and saw fans saying how Mean Dean was being to Poor Sam.  The same Sam that belittled his brother's time in hell.  Who ignored his brother's warning and basically told him he didn't matter. 

 

Was Dean responsible for Sam feeling guilty because his brother went to hell to bring him back...okay.  But Sam also is responsible for his own actions as he told Dean he was responsible for his own actions.   

 

I'm not interested in the fingering point of who is to blame.  Enough bad has been done by both.  I want them to finally put it behind them and move forward.  Just acknowledge that this is such a mess and Nothing can be done to make it sound better than by trying to saving people and helping them put their lives back on track.

 

I want the brother's to think about the consequences before they decide to close up hell or etc. 

 

But basically I'm done with the blame game.    So I'm trying really hard to believe that the writers have figured out how to get the boys out of the plot holes they created and move forward in an interesting way.  Rehashing the past issues, is just tiresome and boring.  

 

Of course, no one needs to agree with my point of view.  We can agree we see things differently.  :)  Tomorrow I might feel differently as I reserve the right to change my mind.    But for this moment, this is what I see.

[SueB]

Edited to add: Hopefully except for my post below, I've gotten this mostly out of my system. I was trying for a long time to be positive, but I think the end of season 10 has beaten me down. I could use some SueB optimism right now.

 

But basically I'm done with the blame game.    So I'm trying really hard to believe that the writers have figured out how to get the boys out of the plot holes they created and move forward in an interesting way.  Rehashing the past issues, is just tiresome and boring.  

 

***blows kazoo and comes riding in on her rainbow farting unicorn***

 

7kstar ... my response to you is in the spoiler section after I finish this note.

 

AwesomeO.... Even though I know that we're back at Apocalypse AGAIN (as opposed to Now... sorry, couldn't resist...I'll show myself out...), I've never loved Sam more than I did at the end of S10.  I thought he was VERY sympathetically written.  In S4 when Sam was doing his own thing, there was a sense that he was succumbing to a desire for power.  I think that is what Kripke was going for. Sam rationalized that if he was a monster (due to the demon blood), he wanted to do something 'good' with his power. But in the end, he enjoyed the power too much.  Personally I think Sam spent all of S5 atoning for his mistake and the Swan Song was just the final sacrifice.  But it was kinda all about him.  In S10, Sam may have done some questionable things but it wasn't for personal power.  He FIRMLY believed Dean was ultimately good and that he needed to save him from a horrible fate.  It was a very self-sacrificing year and nothing he did was for personal power.  So... yeah, the Apocalypse.  But I still support Sam's rationale for not trusting that the only solution was for Dean to live for eternity in isolation.  Talk about a fate worse than death!  At the end of the day, just like the audience WANTED Sam back (even if Dean stuck Gadreel in him), the audience WANTED Dean saved.  And we don't know the outcome yet.  At mid S9, all we knew was Kevin was dead and Sam was traumatized.  Gadreel didn't redeem himself til the end.  It's entirely possible, give how huge the stakes are, that there could be a S10 outcome that is ultimately a positive.  Waaaaaay too early to judge IMO.  

 

Will there be a shit-ton of collateral damage? Yes.  And there was for Dean and the MoC.  But I have hope that the past two years have taught the boys something.  I really liked Dean's speech at the end, about evaluating what they were doing and seeing it for what it really was.  These guys play so far above their power-level it's ridiculous.  And yet I ultimately have faith in them doing the right thing.  I believe in them.  Still.  

Edited September 20, 2015 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

My problem is I don't agree.  I don't see Sam getting this great redemption at the end of Season 5.  Because at that point I just didn't care.  Sam was an such an ass. So what he was in the cage. With everything that happens afterwards, it really doesn't mean anything.  Look how many died.  They might have actually saved more life's by becoming Lucifer's & Michael's vessels. 

 

Now I'm suppose to feel sorry for him for being in the cage when Dean's time in hell is now considered a picnic.  All it did was make me angry.  That's it and I didn't care about how Sam suffered.

 

Ouch. I don't mean to offend or be argumentative, but how does this fit in with "I still love both brothers?" It's okay to only like Dean or want to see growth or a story mostly for Dean. It's actually a fairly common opinion.

 

And I know there is the opinion that the plan of Dean becoming Michael's vessel might've saved lives. I can only go by what the narrative said about the fight destroying half the earth's population. And in general I tend to more believe Castiel who thought it was a bad idea than Zachariah - who was a complete monster - who wanted Dean to be Michael's vessel so the angel's could win and have their paradise on earth (Zac didn't care about  humans at best and mostly outwardly hated them, so I doubt a plan that he favored was going to go well for humanity).

 

For every point you say that Dean gets the hero moment I also heard and saw fans saying how Mean Dean was being to Poor Sam.  The same Sam that belittled his brother's time in hell.  Who ignored his brother's warning and basically told him he didn't matter.

 

You are welcome to your opinion, but I go by what I see in canon, on the show. If I listened to fan opinions, there are likely way more that go in the other direction. Your own opinion here says Sam was an ass and you don't care that Sam suffered, because it somehow diminished Dean going to hell. The only one I remember who said Dean's hell was going to be like "a trip to Graceland" compared to Sam's time in hell - was Dean. And Dean is not a reliable narrator. One - of course he's going to trivialize his own suffering: that's Dean's middle name, and two - Dean was trying to talk Sam out of sacrificing himself... of course he was going to make that argument. We had plenty of narrative indicating that both Dean's and Sam's time in hell were horrific. I tend to believe that Dean's was more brutal with physical torture and Sam's was more psychological/mental torture - because that's how Lucifer rolls from what I can tell - but that is only the impression that I got from what the narrative told me.

 

I think this is the part that Carver may be trying to address.  For those that saw Sam being redeemed for his big mistakes, they are left shaking his head.  But for those of us who felt he still hadn't because he said that what I went through made it even.  Really, I doubt the ones that were left behind to deal with the deaths felt Sam had resolved the issue for them.  Plus now I'm just too sick holy Sam...it was a little too late.

 

Dean was the one who absolved everybody of what they did first - in season 6, so I'm not going to rag on Sam for towing Dean's party line. I may have hated that episode where Sam forgave himself or however it was put and thought it was poorly written, but it was hardly an idea that only Sam thought up. There was not any "that makes us even" said by Sam that I recall. Dean didn't say it either. Dean declared a fresh start for everyone.

 

And if Carver is going to address something that's fine, but what is it he's addressing? You may dislike season 6 and 7, but at the very least they had Sam thanking Dean for all he done for him, working till he dropped to get Dean back when he disappeared, and capitulating to Dean after an argument. It also had the brothers working together and a low civilian casualty caused by Sam and Dean. That is canon, not my interpretation. And I'm not sure how Carver ignoring that canon and instead having Sam ignore that Dean went missing, giving Dean ultimatums, abandoning Kevin and being even more arrogant/unreasonable/etc. towards Dean (and apparently calling it "mature" behind the scenes), not to mention really upping the brothers' tendency to throw the world under the bus to save each other was any better than ignoring the problem in the first place if that is what season 6 and 7 did.

 

If something happens growth-wise next season from all of this, good, but for me, Carver is taking an awful long time to get there and is rehashing a lot of unnecessary ground to do it. If a character was supposedly "an ass" in need of redemption, in my opinion you don't have to make that character more of an ass first in order to redeem him. To me that's repetitive, annoying, and dismissive of the showrunners that went before him, especially since Carver is the one who has upped the anti on the brothers choosing each other over the world.

 

 

***blows kazoo and comes riding in on her rainbow farting unicorn***

 

AwesomeO.... Even though I know that we're back at Apocalypse AGAIN (as opposed to Now... sorry, couldn't resist...I'll show myself out...), I've never loved Sam more than I did at the end of S10.  I thought he was VERY sympathetically written.

 

Oh, I definitely agree that Sam has been sympathetically written - he finally reminds me of season 7 Sam again. This is not my issue. My issue - besides Sam apparently, in my opinion anyway, getting quite a bit of a dumb-down in order to make this all happen - is... I'm a scientist dammit! ; ) I want this to make sense. What is the writers' hypothesis? What are they trying to prove to me with this narrative? Why if I am suppose to be happy that Sam was all about saving Dean is the result soooo awful compared to say Dean saving Sam from hell, huh? Everyone and Uncle Bobby, told Dean "oh no, this is dangerous, blah blah." Even Castiel tried to talk him out of it. But Dean was stubborn and did it anyway, and we lost an innocent nurse in the process, but the earth didn't open up and spew out a horrible darkness. Sam didn't go all psycho and kill a dozen people. Everything went fairly well. Did Dean asking Sam not to close the gates to hell cause massive earthquakes and dogs and cats sleeping together? No. Did putting Gadreel in Sam allow Gadreel to go on an earth destroying tirade? No. Gadreel helped save the world.

 

So this is my problem. I can't help it. I'm analytical. I look at theories. I analyze data... and the data here does not compute so far unless they are telling me something rather disturbing. This is what is making me annoyed. I want consistency, and I want it to make sense.

[7kstar]

@Awesom04000, I don't have time to take each point now.  So I'll answer more tomorrow.  I'm not going by fans...I'm going by what characters said and writers.

 

 

Ouch. I don't mean to offend or be argumentative, but how does this fit in with "I still love both brothers?" It's okay to only like Dean or want to see growth or a story mostly for Dean. It's actually a fairly common opinion.

I'm an actress...you take information from the characters, what other characters say and what the writer tells you to collect data to define your character.  Crowley talked about how Sam's being locked in the cage was far worse experience than being in Hell.  Death talked about it too.

 

My short point is by the time season 5 finished.  I no longer liked Sam.  By the way I still wasn't agreeing with those that said Dean didn't have a story line at that time.  I was still both brother fan.  I laughed at many of the comments I saw.

 

  However, as you know the final left a bad taste in my mouth and what it did to Dean's story still doesn't leave me feeling warm and fuzzy.  More like you feel about Sam in season 8.

 

I want growth for both.  My problem became issue which is a re statement...we've talked about this before...not trying to be mean honestly...but I also teach debate.

 

So Dean's story of being the vessel is dropped.  His story of being a family man is written poorly in some ways and others not so much.  7 is a mess Period.  Yes Sam says the words but his actions don't match up.  He may say he is sorry but his actions go back to nope Dean you messed up.

 

I started hating Sam in season 7.  I kept waiting for it to be addressed but it wasn't.  I almost stopped watching.  8 has a storyline for Dean but it is dropped again.

 

So it was no more fulfilling for me than Sam's storyline was for you.  Just as you can find evidence to back up your side.  I can find the same for my point of view.  I doubt we will agree.

 

Another issue might be something simple as Jared's acting...his non verbal acting.

 

I'm very trained in nonverbal cues.  Most of acting is the non verbal over the words.  Sure Sam said the things you've talked about but his actions vetoed it.  If you say no but nod your head yes, your stronger message isn't with the words but the body language. 

 

I never believed Sam's body language.  Jensen does an amazing job here with body language.  His actions match his words.  This may be the issue with Jared's acting.  I'm just now focusing on this...so I will have to watch more to see if that is the problem.  Also I knew what they were doing with Sam.  It's why I hate horror stories, I don't really get fooled.  I knew Sam was wrong and blind.  Then it is finally confirmed but Sam is the last one to figure it out.

 

I also ended with, I don't care if I'm right or your right.  I no longer care at all whether Sam's story or Dean's story is the right one. I no longer want to rehash the past seasons of how this character was trashed over this one.  It's been such a mess for so long, for me the second half of season 4.  I care more now about the writer's fixing the issues. 

 

This is an area of agreement.  You want Sam to have to face what he has done and to be a hero.  I want the brother's fighting the good fight together.  I want to root for them and if they have moments where they drive me mad, I want to see the light at the end of the tunnel.  I want something new, not a remix of the old song and dance.  I want the brothers to laugh again.  To tease each other.  For Sam to tell Dean, I know that hunting is my gig but I can't do it without you...just so we're clear.

 

For the show's focus to go back to it's roots of hope. 

 

I did watch 7 just not the day it aired.  I watched the same shows you did, but I didn't see Sam growing until Dean was no longer coping at all.  When Dean told Sam not to be a dick after he got the message from Ellen, I cheered, about time.  The Amy story hated it and thought it was stupid for Sam to leave Dean over. (That one I blame the writing...it sucked) 

 

At this point I no longer was a brothers fan and I searched high and low for fanfics to help me want to love Sam again.

 

I really see Carver seeing that these issues weren't addressed and wanting to put his spin on it. 

 

Sam's purge speech just made me want to kill him.  But then came Season 10.  Sam fighting when the tables were turned, started to heal the long issues, and some to be honest have been part of Sam since Season 1.

 

I'll end, because this was much longer than I intended.  In debate there are 2 sides.  Both have something that is true.  Although your fears for Sam came true, I didn't see him being as bad as I did in season 4 & 5.  Now it wasn't about him.  Now it was about Dean.  Needing a win.  I wanted him to win.  I wanted Sam to save Dean but I also wanted Dean to save Dean.  Conflict the major ingredient for a good drama.  It was a natural conflict.

 

Remember I was furious with the season final of season 10.  Sue B has had to work hard to get me to calm down.  :)  Sorry Sue.  I'm back to I love both brothers.  I want both to have something unique and cool.  I want to have my cake and eat it too.  :)

 

Don't know if any of this helps as I'm tired.  I didn't proof carefully so things may be too blunt.  I do not mean to offend.  :)

[AwesomO4000]

I'm not going by fans...I'm going by what characters said and writers.

 

Ah, okay, sorry. You mentioned fans, so that's what I thought you were referring to.

 

7 is a mess Period.  Yes Sam says the words but his actions don't match up.  He may say he is sorry but his actions go back to nope Dean you messed up.

 

I started hating Sam in season 7.  I kept waiting for it to be addressed but it wasn't.  I almost stopped watching.  8 has a storyline for Dean but it is dropped again.

 

So it was no more fulfilling for me than Sam's storyline was for you.  Just as you can find evidence to back up your side.  I can find the same for my point of view.  I doubt we will agree.

 

Another issue might be something simple as Jared's acting...his non verbal acting.

 

I'm very trained in nonverbal cues.  Most of acting is the non verbal over the words.  Sure Sam said the things you've talked about but his actions vetoed it.  If you say no but nod your head yes, your stronger message isn't with the words but the body language.

 

 

Also, okay. I guess I just never saw anything like that, so I can't relate to what you are saying. I never saw Sam as anything but sincere in season  6.5 - 7, and especially in "Mannequin 3..." (season 6) when he thanked Dean for saving him.

 

It's also hard for me to say Sam was showing anything insincere towards Dean with verbal cues in season 7, because I didn't see anything that looked unusual except when Jared - for me - gave subtle cues of his mental state. An example for me was "The Mentalists." What I at first thought was Sam totally ignoring Dean, because he was giving him the silent treatment, on subsequent viewings, I thought to be Sam thinking Dean wasn't really there. (He doesn't acknowledge Dean until the waitress talks to Dean, and then he seems subtly surprised - I interpreted that to mean Sam didn't think Dean was really there. Sam didn't just hallucinate Lucifer. He would also sometimes hallucinate things happening to other people and sometimes a Dean who wasn't there - Hallucination Dean even drove Sam somewhere once or so Sam thought. Lucifer is just the one we saw most often.)

 

I actually thought that Jared did a great job in season 7 of using subtle visual clues and times when he appeared distracted to show Sam's damaged mental state without making it cheesey or over-the-top. But I can't claim to be an expert, so I guess I just suck at recognizing good acting vs not so good acting.

 

When Dean told Sam not to be a dick after he got the message from Ellen, I cheered, about time.  The Amy story hated it and thought it was stupid for Sam to leave Dean over. (That one I blame the writing...it sucked)

 

Sam told Dean he was right about Amy - that's huge in Winchesterland. And Sam left Dean mostly because of the lying part. He was shaken, because he thought Dean was his anchor to reality, and then he didn't know, and it shook him. But we can agree to disagree. That's cool.

 

You want Sam to have to face what he has done and to be a hero.  I want the brother's fighting the good fight together.

 

One last point. Damn I must be crap at this, because this isn't what I want, so I apologize for giving the wrong impression. I'm fine with Sam and what happened in season 4. I thought he redeemed himself in season 5 and season 6.5-7 in a lot of ways, especially on working to be honest with Dean (you don' have to agree with me on that one.) I'm good with that. I actually don't want Sam to "face what he's done" - I've had enough of Sam guilt and him having to prove himself to Dean after messing up. Season 5 was good for me, and I enjoyed that season very much, but I don't need a repeat. I didn't dislike Sam - and I actually favored him (with the exception of season 4) - until season 8. My complaint with season 8 had less to do with the arc - even though that was awful too - and more to do with what I saw as character torpedoing. I liked Sam's character growth up until that point, and was annoyed that Carver "undid it" and sent Sam back to crappy season 4 Sam (in my opinion). It took 3 seasons to get Sam back to knowing that hunting with Dean was what he wanted to do (for me, that was one season 5-7 trait that got wiped out.) I just hope he lets it stick this time, and doesn't do another Sam regression.

 

I also don't want Sam to be the hero, not really. I just don't want him to be the screw-up any more.  I don't want him to be knocked out again, or too late, or the Samsel in distress, or not present when the big battle goes down. I want him fighting beside Dean. And if Carver hadn't created the current mess, I would've even been totally on board with Dean doing almost all of the heavy hero-lifting. But unfortunately now I do want Sam to help fix his mess. I also want Carver to stop exalting in making Sam mess up, making him be crappy to Dean (there's no need for it, imo. We got past that, I thought, since season 5) and in giving me mixed messages about what the brothers should be doing with respect to each other and the world. That's what I want.

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

I'm sorry, but I can never not laugh at the notion that Dean is just a sidekick. Dean drives the car; more often than not is the leader of their little rag-tag group; and generally speaking does most of the saving. To me, that's no Alfred.

 

IMO, the show had never truly revolved around Sam. I realize that probably was the intent at the beginning of the show, but the execution never truly sold me on that notion. I think the balance came when they started shifting the POV to Dean towards the end of the first season. Yes, the main plot was "what is wrong with Sammy" at that time, but we see it through Dean's eyes and the effect it has on Dean more than anything. That doesn't make him Sam's nursemaid, IMO, that makes him equal in the story.

 

IMO, Dean has always had his own storyline--whether is was intended or not by the PTB--just because it's not the storyline you would like to see doesn't mean it's not his own. 

I agree with this so much. I never ever felt he was a sidekick, even in season one. He always as the biggest interaction with the guest characters and he is usually the one with the "plan" even if its not a great one. :-)  I didn't mind his caregiving at all. I would have liked the Purgatory story to last longer but hey Jared had the stupid Amelia storyline.  I am fine with the Luke and Hans Solo nod, but even in Star Wars I preferred/understood Solo over Luke.

[Myrelle]

with Carver's referral to the "coming to Jesus" moment

]I honestly feel that so much of what's being discussed here is just a re-hashing of things that are never going to even be addressed by the writers-both older things and more recent. And this was actually the biggest reason that I took a sort of sabbatical from most of the boards that I used to frequent last season. It almost felt like what's the point to me. Peoples' minds are made up on almost every aspect of the show. Favorites are favorites, at this point, and will likely remain so and when I feel myself being pulled into the same old discussions and disagreements that feeling of what's the point-at this point in the storytelling-just rises up naturally now. This could change if I ever felt like we were going to get some real growth out of these two characters. But everyone's(Carver's and the cast's) description of  the first few episodes just sound like another re-set to me(see spoiler)being just another we'll have Dean see the light moment, while Sam nods on sagely, comfortable in the knowledge and thought that he's finally gotten through to his always stubborn and hard-headed brother who rarely trusts Sam's decision-making skills or judgements and who has control issues that preclude him listening to his brother at times(because this description doesn't fit Sam at all<sarcasm>); and similar to what we've usually been given, IMO, in most of the brother conversations since S5 -where we got that at least three times, starting with Fallen Idols and again in PONR and yet again in the finale right before Sam employed the demon blood to take on Lucifer and save the world by falling, Jesus-like, into the big plot hole that was supposed to be the resolution to the Apocalypse sl and with the writers thus employing the grand gesture to redeem and absolve Sam of everything he'd said and done in S4 on his way to the end of that sl- a sl that was indeed  a solely and completely heroic redemption sl for Sam-at least in the eyes of the writers' and most of the fandom.

S5 was All About Sam in that way, IMO.

As for Dean being portrayed as saint-like in s4-I think that was only the case because the writing attempted to make S4 All About Sam also and his addiction to the demon blood; but they HAD to do something about Jensen and Dean and that pesky sojourn into hell that he'd taken(and to appease those pesky fans of his, of course)-so we got a few mentions/scenes here and there regarding it, a couple of episodes that delved into it(that were admittedly great, few as they were) along with many episodes that centered around what Sam was doing with Ruby and what was going to happen with that and what was Dean going to do about that?! Cas' entrance was great, but turned out to be one huge red herring for bringing Dean into the myth-arc-as we were told in Swan Song quite pointedly. So many of those s4 episodes failed to touch on Dean's hell time, that by the end of that season, and going exclusively by the writing, one could almost have forgotten entirely that Dean had indeed gone to hell(and broke the first seal there, btw) because the Apocalypse was coming, and they had to get on with Sam's(and only Sam's) big redemption sl-yes, a redemption sl made most necessary now because of all the awful things Sam had done and said in s4-too many to even mention all of them specifically(including calling his brother weak and ineffective and a coward in one memorable scene, oh wait, under the influence of the demon blood, though-but oh wait again, he said something very similar in s9-but this time without any kind of a supernatural influence afflicting him). Guess they figured they'd just go with the one-the big one of starting the Apocalypse(while Dean could just deal with any guilt for his part in it, and yes, inadvertent as it was, off-screen; oh, and he didn't need a part in any redemption sl either because it was so inadvertent as to not even merit mentioning any longer. And really, Dean's biggest redemption needed to come from how horribly and terribly he'd treated poor put upon Sam while Sam was suffering from the demon blood addiction-the same addiction that would serve as a lynchpin in saving the world. Yay. I think I might hate S5 now more than when it first aired.

I think the reason that most Deanfans are so upset with the ending of the s10 finale and Dean's loss of the MoC is that they're afraid of the same thing happening only with the Darkness replacing the Apocalypse and the MoC replacing Dean's own sojourn into hell(where he broke the first seal that set the dominoes falling, btw). Certainly the relative lack of spoilers for Dean in S11 has something to do with this.

 

At this point, I'm over hoping that they're hiding some big sl for him that they don't want to spoil-at least in the first half of this season. I think that the best hope for Dean having another central to and supernaturally-related connection within the myth-arc sl(which as one of only three bearers of the Mark and having held back the darkness, single-handedly, since mid S9, he should most definitely have) will come in the second half of the season, IF it's going to come-and that's a big If.  Still, I think that is the best hope that any fan who longs for Dean to have his own sl within the  myth-arc again(and one that doesn't strictly revolve around Sam and any connection that he's going to have to it). But then the thought of what happened in S4-5 rears it's ugly head again, and who knows. The feeling I'm getting from many Deanfans now, and simply from lurking mode, is that it's best not to hope for anything if you're a fan of Dean remaining central to and supernaturally connected to the myth-arc. And DVRing with the added option of FFing  and/or tossing episodes away unwatched(if they're reported as being that bad by like-minded others), is the best way to go for that segment of the fandom.

I feel like Sam not saying anything to Cas or to Dean about everything Demon!Dean said was kind of hogwash. I came away feeling like that was Sam being set up to "Saint!Sam" for s10.  And yes I loved that Sam was trying to save Dean but the lack of anger or resentment at ALL during the whole season was odd.  Like sure I get Sam knew Dean wasn't Dean but every time Sam has said shitty things to and about Dean when he wasn't in his right mind, that shit stung Dean and he carried it even when his logical mind understood it wasn't really Sam.(i.e. Asylum or s4 and s4)and  I appreciated that kind of writing. That felt real to me. Because even when we say things or hear things from someone we love and who loves us, even when not right in the mind at the time, it hurts, it scars and it takes time to forgive.  Same for Sam in s9 (until the Purge speech that is cause that was all kinds of sideways).

I don't need to see Sam angry at Dean ever again. I'd love to see him come to the understanding that what he went through with DemonDean and MoCDean were what Dean's been going through with his family and friends consistently for most of his life-or at least from the series' inception. I loved the things that DemonDean said while being cured because if anything should have gotten Sam to do some real introspection, it would have been those things-and the knowledge that when he himself said similar types of things, they could not be dismissed so easily because they came from an actual albeit very dark place inside his human self; and that while they were things that he might not have ever said if he could help it, still he felt them and saying them DID indeed hurt his brother like hell because some of those "hard truths" in that Purge speech were truths that only Sam, the wounded human at the time, was feeling(and not that they were necessarily "genuine" truths because Dean's sacrifices hurting others, but never Dean was NOT a genuine truth-not in the least as we have seen with our own eyes many times over the course of this series-it was an AngrySam generated truth-just as much of what DemonDean said was, IMO.

The things that DemonDean said are exactly what Sam should ruminate on, IMO(and even if they do just gloss over everything again-this, to me was the best part of the DemonDean sl because strictly from the writing perspective we now know that the writers DO see Sam's deepest and worst(IMO) character flaws within the brothers' relationship-his shifting of blame that has exacerbated Dean's guilt complex and what John did to Dean in that regard, from as far back as childhood; Dean's understanding that John indoctrinating them into the hunting life(and especially Dean, himself) WAS a form of brainwashing; and Dean's own extreme anger and resentment over having had to give up and over his entire childhood, and most other parts of his life also, to "watching over Sammy". And this, in addition to Dean carrying the MOC, are precisely the things that moved me to check out the boards again. They were different than anything we've gotten since s4 and made for exciting watching of this show again-at least for this fan. I truly hope that they won't drop the ball this time(and yet again) on any of this interesting Dean material.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Myrelle

[Myrelle]

Sorry, please forgive the humongous paragraphs. I tried to edit them down, but not having any luck, and no time to figure out why now.

ETA: Got it.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Myrelle

[7kstar]

Also, okay. I guess I just never saw anything like that, so I can't relate to what you are saying. I never saw Sam as anything but sincere in season  6.5 - 7, and especially in "Mannequin 3..." (season 6) when he thanked Dean for saving him.

 

It's also hard for me to say Sam was showing anything insincere towards Dean with verbal cues in season 7, because I didn't see anything that looked unusual except when Jared - for me - gave subtle cues of his mental state.

 

I actually thought that Jared did a great job in season 7 of using subtle visual clues and times when he appeared distracted to show Sam's damaged mental state without making it cheesey or over-the-top. But I can't claim to be an expert, so I guess I just suck at recognizing good acting vs not so good acting.

 

The thing about your perception of acting has nothing to do with good vs bad acting.  Because I'm trained I get taken out of the story by bad acting.  Other's would never notice and that is fine.  Really it is about did it move you.  Did you feel connected.  Just so you know Actors can also fight over what is good and bad acting.  :)  I'm not sure if I've figured out what makes me not believe.  I don't have time to watch season 7 right now...so I am going by what  I felt.  You MAY not have felt the same thing and that is perfectly Valid.

 

My disconnect was several things.  I wasn't happy with what they were doing with Dean and Sam.  I was so over the guilt and boys not getting along.  I wanted them to figure out they were better together vs being separate.  I wanted them to save the world together.  To make the time apart have meaning.

 

If you feel that everything was fine and really great acting, sometimes it is because the story being told is something you can relate to.  Jared just takes me out at the weirdest times.  I think 10 I felt more of a connection with him and didn't judge so much.  He's grown so much since Season 1...which he should have..

 

Also I am a creative type.  Emotions and body language grab my attention more than logic.  I can see some of your points, I just never felt them if that makes sense, so it creates a disconnect.

 

 

Sam told Dean he was right about Amy - that's huge in Winchesterland. And Sam left Dean mostly because of the lying part. He was shaken, because he thought Dean was his anchor to reality, and then he didn't know, and it shook him. But we can agree to disagree. That's cool.

I found myself going here he goes again.  Every time Sam leaves, I felt the manipulation by the bad writing.  Especially when they talk about how it looked and sounded like a break up scene (Jensen & Jared).  

 

Part of the problem I had that Sam did mean what he said in Season 1 under the influence.  It made sense on too many levels and Sam saying I didn't mean it doesn't work for me.  It felt like he was ignoring his own thoughts and feelings.  Not truthful.  But we can agree to disagree.  :)

 

 

   

One last point. Damn I must be crap at this, because this isn't what I want, so I apologize for giving the wrong impression. I'm fine with Sam and what happened in season 4. I thought he redeemed himself in season 5 and season 6.5-7 in a lot of ways, especially on working to be honest with Dean (you don' have to agree with me on that one.) I'm good with that. I actually don't want Sam to "face what he's done" - I've had enough of Sam guilt and him having to prove himself to Dean after messing up. Season 5 was good for me, and I enjoyed that season very much, but I don't need a repeat. I didn't dislike Sam - and I actually favored him (with the exception of season 4) - until season 8. My complaint with season 8 had less to do with the arc - even though that was awful too - and more to do with what I saw as character torpedoing. I liked Sam's character growth up until that point, and was annoyed that Carver "undid it" and sent Sam back to crappy season 4 Sam (in my opinion). It took 3 seasons to get Sam back to knowing that hunting with Dean was what he wanted to do (for me, that was one season 5-7 trait that got wiped out.) I just hope he lets it stick this time, and doesn't do another Sam regression.

    I also don't want Sam to be the hero, not really. I just don't want him to be the screw-up any more.  I don't want him to be knocked out again, or too late, or the Samsel in distress, or not present when the big battle goes down. I want him fighting beside Dean. And if Carver hadn't created the current mess, I would've even been totally on board with Dean doing almost all of the heavy hero-lifting. But unfortunately now I do want Sam to help fix his mess. I also want Carver to stop exalting in making Sam mess up, making him be crappy to Dean (there's no need for it, imo. We got past that, I thought, since season 5) and in giving me mixed messages about what the brothers should be doing with respect to each other and the world. That's what I want.

There are places we are in agreement.  Sam in a big dress needing Dean to ride up on the white horse...is so overdone.  Never again...Samsel in distress, I don't want another repeat, either.

IA Sam being crappy to Dean without reason NEEDS to stop.  CARVER  can you please pay attention.

 

I want to see how the Brother's face this together.  I'm hoping this is what we will get.  But I'm also ready for the writing to trash it all up and make us all bang our heads on the desk.  Now in time I might feel different about the last half of 6 - 7.  But I'm going in with very little expectations, so if it really good I can feel great about it.

 

I really think on the big picture we are in agreement.  It's the small things, really that is where we don't agree.  :)

[Omegamom]

Sam and Dean spend all their time together.

All. Their. Time.

They are with each other 24/7, except for the times Sam flounces off or Dean sends him off (the only time *Dean* left was demon!Dean).

Dear God. It's a wonder they haven't murdered each other by now. A few year-long arcs of resentment should be expected, frankly.

Look. Family dynamics have a peculiar ability to be set in stone. My grandmother, at the age of 100, could still reduce my (wonderful, strong, beautiful, Bohemian-style) almost-80-year-old mom to tears by simply saying something that would begin with, "You'd look so good if you'd only..." You'd think that the 100-year-old would have long since realized how hurtful it was; you'd think the almost-80-year-old would have internalized that it didn't matter. They loved each other, but they just had that history/obliviousness etc.

[7kstar]

Oh I know how family can set you off even when you've trained yourself to respond differently...So yes Dean and Sam getting upset at each other is normal.  I just want the upsets to be organic than manipulation of writing.

 

I also know when your depressed, hurting your more vulnerable to the patterns than when you are feeling better.

 

So it is why I wish for the lighter times of Season 1.  The boys did have a few bumps and I expect they will always have some bumps along the road.  As you say being with each other 24/7  it's amazing if they weren't trying to kill each other sometimes.  :)

[AwesomO4000]

As for Dean being portrayed as saint-like in s4-I think that was only the case because the writing attempted to make S4 All About Sam also and his addiction to the demon blood; but they HAD to do something about Jensen and Dean and that pesky sojourn into hell that he'd taken(and to appease those pesky fans of his, of course)-so we got a few mentions/scenes here and there regarding it, a couple of episodes that delved into it(that were admittedly great, few as they were) along with many episodes that centered around what Sam was doing with Ruby and what was going to happen with that and what was Dean going to do about that?! Cas' entrance was great, but turned out to be one huge red herring for bringing Dean into the myth-arc

 

I'm sorry to be an annoyance about this, but to be fair it was one episode and a half maybe and then the finale. Ruby was in a total of maybe 6 episodes where she had more than one scene that was longer than a minute or two. We didn't even learn that Sam was drinking demon blood until 16 episodes in, and that was in one short scene in an episode centered on Dean. To me that is not the focus of many episodes. I understand the frustration at the curve ball of Adam, but the claim that there was no focus on Dean and his hell affects in season 4, I just don't get. We had 6 episodes of Dean talking with angels before Sam even met the angels, and the angels were always alluding to Dean's time in hell. There was "It's The Great Pumpkin..." and "Yellow Fever" with the flashbacks, "I Know What You Did..." and "Heaven and Hell" with Alastair. "Death Takes a Holiday" and "On the Head..." with Alastair. Dean talked about his experiences with Sam in a few episodes. In my opinion, it was a big part of season 4.

 

Edited to add:

 

7kstar, I did all of the below before I saw your post (- had to go away and came back) . You have some good points, and ironically what I liked about season 7 is what you want for season 11, Sam and Dean working together. For me that's what happened for a lot of that season. Sam and Dean did spend the majority of it (The first two episodes were full of brotherly moments for me, and then Amy kerfuffle was resolved by episode 7) working together towards one goal - stopping the Leviathan. I kind of liked that there was one main goal - no season broken up into two separate things - and that they solved it together. *shrug*

 

Okay now maybe the less fluffy stuff - sorry, but since I already wrote it out...

 

And after thinking about it for a while, I decided that I wanted to address one more unpopular opinion of mine since it's come up a few times recently.

 

When Dean told Sam not to be a dick after he got the message from Ellen, I cheered, about time.

...in that Purge speech were truths that only Sam, the wounded human at the time, was feeling(and not that they were necessarily "genuine" truths because Dean's sacrifices hurting others, but never Dean was NOT a genuine truth

 

Edited because, as Crowley would say, I do tend to bather on. So the puppet show version of my point. (You can pretend Mr Fizzles is narrating if you want.)

 

I thought Sam's anger was reasonable in "The Mentalists." So was Dean's frustration. There was a lack of communication, and as usual, Dean just wanted Sam to get over it already - it's a Dean thing - and also he thought he was right, so had no patience for Sam's flouncing off. Sam wanted to pout a bit longer, but Dean wasn't going anywhere. Unfortunately for Sam, he fell for the old, "we'll just work the case together, since I'm here, and I'm not leaving. No pushing, just save the people, I swear." Except Dean entirely pushed, and even Sam's attempts to civilly just work the case earned him a "stop being a bitch." Lucky for Dean, Sam caved on that one.

 

Dean wasn't so lucky in season 9. Sam didn't fall for the just working the case thing that time, and even though Dean said he was "poison" etc. etc., Dean didn't act like he thought that, or that he was even wrong about what he did. He tried to take over the case, lying to Sam to do it, and he even bossed Sam around a bit - not ordering Sam per se onto corpse duty, but definitely telling rather than asking. That's when Sam tried the we can work together, but "no brothers while working" thing, because Dean tried to pull the family card earlier in the discussion. By the time of "The Purge" and Dean saying that he was right rather than apologizing, Sam finally exploded. He was a complete bitch about it, and definitely not right in what he said in every sense of the word, but I could understand why Sam was frustrated with Dean, because he'd been through this before as far back as Dean making the deal and then pulling the "Don't be mad at me" card before going straight back into big brother mode of getting sympathy favors off of Sam's guilt... until Sam finally wised up to that one.

 

So I guess I'm saying here that I see both sides, and both of their behaviors were crap.

 

I think this is the part that Carver may be trying to address.  For those that saw Sam being redeemed for his big mistakes, they are left shaking his head. But for those of us who felt [sam] still hadn't because he said that what I went through made it even.  Really, I doubt the ones that were left behind to deal with the deaths felt Sam had resolved the issue for them.

 

It was a completely crappy episode, but actually I think what Sam had to say at the end of it was not about it being even or even being forgiven, and I personally think that it's very good advice for the upcoming season...

 

Sam: I think I just don't... feel guilty anymore.

Dean: Come on.

Sam: Look, I don't know what to tell you, Dean. I mean, I've spent a lot of time feeling pretty crappy – like, my whole life.

Dean: What, you got a secret stash of happy pills?

Sam: Hell... Look, I'm not saying it's logical. I just... you know, I feel like I did a lot of stuff I should have felt bad for, and then I paid a lot of dues and came out the other side, you know?

Dean: And that worked? I mean, you really feel like your – your slate's wiped?

Sam: No. Nothing ever gets wiped... You know? Sometimes I see Lucifer when I friggin' brush my teeth, but, I don't know, I guess I just finally feel like... my past is my past, and I can move on with my life. You know, hopefully.

 

Hopefully to move on to fix the mess they've created - and hopefully fix it together.

Edited September 22, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[AwesomO4000]

Sam and Dean spend all their time together.

All. Their. Time.

They are with each other 24/7, except for the times Sam flounces off or Dean sends him off (the only time *Dean* left was demon!Dean).

Dear God. It's a wonder they haven't murdered each other by now. A few year-long arcs of resentment should be expected, frankly.

 

Hee!

 

Actually Dean flounced off on Sam twice, albeit in a slightly more manly way. Once at the end of "99 Problems" to go say yes to Michael and again at the end of "Road Trip" after he decided he was poison.

Edited September 22, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[Commando Cody]

After everything they both have turned into, I have trouble believing they can still sleep in the same hotel room. 

[mertensia]

After everything they both have turned into, I have trouble believing they can still sleep in the same hotel room.

They probably couldn't if they hadn't been raised in hotel rooms. It's not home like the lair or the Impala or a real home but they *know* hotel rooms. They feel confortable and familiar and have been stuck in them going stir crazy so even that is familiar. It's undoubtably *a* reason why Crowley shared a room with DemonDean: keep him where he's comfortable.

[AwesomO4000]

They probably couldn't if they hadn't been raised in hotel rooms. It's not home like the lair or the Impala or a real home but they *know* hotel rooms. They feel confortable and familiar and have been stuck in them going stir crazy so even that is familiar. It's undoubtably *a* reason why Crowley shared a room with DemonDean: keep him where he's comfortable.

 

That makes sense, because it likely wouldn't have been because Crowley couldn't afford his own room or even a fancier room. He even went along with the "bitch" / "jerk" thing... i.e. what Dean is comfortable with.

 

Good insight there. That's something I hadn't even considered before.

[Aeryn13]

Thing is, they have little in the way of common interests when it comes to simple fun. `Sure, despite the show often using Dean as the comic relief barely literate goof, we do know he likes to do recreational reading but Sam is more of a bookworm. And occassionally, Sam might enjoy going out for a beer but Dean likes to socialize in a bar more. They watched Game of Thrones together but largely, I`d say they like and enjoy different books, music or films. Dean can have fun geeking out, Sam can get into it possibly but it`s not a natural response to him. Sam apparently likes to keep serial killer stats for fun, Dean`s response didn`t imply that that is a shared interest.

 

So not only are they two people who spend lots of time together, they are two people who have little in common in everyday life. What keeps them together is that the largest portion of their lifes is far from everyday and as out there as it gets.     

[AwesomO4000]

They both apparently share a love of Star Wars and Indiana Jones movies, but it's true they don't have a lot of shared interests..,

 

There was a new one though from the bunker period. Apparently Dean likes cooking, and Sam likes eating Dean's cooking. Dean even got Sam to eat - and really like - a burger, and I consider that an accomplishment.

 

Oh, and they both also apparently enjoy drinking beer while just looking at the stars, even if Sam is probably doing something nerdy like naming the constellations in his head or something. (Maybe Dean is too, and neither knows the other is doing it.) And I almost forgot that they both like going to baseball games.

 

So there are a few things; though, yeah, not much of it could be done in a hotel room.

[mertensia]

But studies have shown that when it comes to cramming people together for long periods where they can't get away different personalities work the best. This is something people studying who is best suited for interstellar voyages have discovered.

AwesomO4000 I have long said Crowley is one of the few people on the show who really understands Dean. He didn't have as good a handle on DemonDean but I don't think it's a coincidence that the most tender father-son talk we have seen Dean be a participant in (only Sorta being dead and all) was Crowley talking DemonDean back to life.

[catrox14]

 

It's undoubtably *a* reason why Crowley shared a room with DemonDean: keep him where he's comfortable.

 

Wait , wait,  I think Dean just used his room for his bedroom shenanigans, because it was easy.  Crowley bursts into the room, questions what Dean is doing "In MY bed?"  I didn't get the impression that was a shared room in general.

[Myrelle]

Part of the problem I had that Sam did mean what he said in Season 1 under the influence.  It made sense on too many levels and Sam saying I didn't mean it doesn't work for me.  It felt like he was ignoring his own thoughts and feelings.  Not truthful.  But we can agree to disagree.  :)

 

What was truth was that he'd never meant to say it-not that he'd never actually felt it. I think that has always been the case every time either of them has been under a supernatural influence. I have always felt this way. And IMO, the Purge speech from Sam was purposefully written from his wholly human, albeit angry, place precisely to showcase this. And the dead calm way that he delivered it was for the same purpose. And then we got DemonDean and his "feelings" on things.

 

So now we'll see how they handle any brotherly talks in s11. I admit to not having a lot of confidence in how the writers are going to handle this, and for that reason, more than any other, DVRing is replacing live watching for me this season as I'm anticipating much usage of the FF button when it comes to those scenes. I will be immensely happy if it's unnecessary, but I'm not betting on that. They torpedoed the brothers' relationship too thoroughly back in S4/5 for me, and they've never fixed it to my satisfaction-and this in spite of repeated claims from the writers, producers, and even the actors, that they have.

 

My unpopular opinion here is that the part of S11 I'm least looking forward to are the brother talks and that they've never really been my favorite part of the show(I've had a problem with them often being too one-sided since all the way back to Scarecrow, tbh) and now I even dread having to see or listen to them.

[SueB]

Wait , wait,  I think Dean just used his room for his bedroom shenanigans, because it was easy.  Crowley bursts into the room, questions what Dean is doing "In MY bed?"  I didn't get the impression that was a shared room in general.

I always thiught it was a shared room because Crowley complained they were in his bed, not just his room.

[catrox14]

I always thiught it was a shared room because Crowley complained they were in his bed, not just his room.

Okay this is bugging me more than it should LOL.

So if they are sharing a room, what exactly does that mean?  Demons, at least not Crowley, don't really sleep in SPNverse so I assume that applied to demon!Dean. But then we see him wake up face down drunk on a bed when Ann Marie talks to him. Which bed was that? The same one in the same room?

If demons never sleep then is the bed to which Crowley has laid claim only being used for sex and lounging?

If there is only one bed in that shared room, are Crowley and Dean sharing the bed too? If they are why is Crowley is that why Crowley is so put out about Dean's having sex in it? 

 

If it's only Crowley's bed and Dean violated an agreement where is Dean resting his head? On a couch, on a cot, on the floor? Is he just using the room to store his duffle bag?

 

I need these answers and to know : What does all this MEAN?

Edited September 22, 2015 by catrox14

[Omegamom]

Demons sleep, it's canon: Meg told Castiel that now that Lucifer was loose, demons were dreaming again. And it didn't sound metaphorical. I think Crowley claiming he doesn't sleep is either (a) Crowley being a lying liar who lies to impress Olivette, or (b) being King of Hell does it to you. My personal head!canon is that demons sleep sometimes just because they *like* to, and it's a personal taste.

For instance, if *I* were to become demonized, you'd damn well better believe that I would sleep, just cuz sleeping is one of my favorite things. ;-)

And also because whenever I'm faced with a mental problem that I can't solve well awake, usually sleeping on it will allow my subconscious to put things together and solve it. Did a lot of my more advanced mathematics homework that way.

Also, they'd have at least one room to do the triplets. ;-)

[rue721]

I think the reason that most Deanfans are so upset with the ending of the s10 finale and Dean's loss of the MoC is that they're afraid of the same thing happening only with the Darkness replacing the Apocalypse and the MoC replacing Dean's own sojourn into hell(where he broke the first seal that set the dominoes falling, btw). Certainly the relative lack of spoilers for Dean in S11 has something to do with this.

 

The Darkness isn't intriguing to me because it's such an impersonal villain/problem that my bet is that we're just going to get a ton of emotionally irrelevant exposition about it until it's vanquished somehow, and that it won't lead to anything interesting in terms of characterization/character growth for EITHER Sam or Dean (or for their relationship). If this were a different show, I might be interested in how the Darkness works and how it might effect the world of the show and those kinds of question -- but imo SPN is terrible at creating and sticking to mythologies, so that's not something that I particularly look forward to seeing in this case.

 

My favorite season-long mytharcs BY FAR have been S1's John-based arc and S2's Azazel-based arc, because those arcs had pretty powerful character-based storylines associated with them.

 

What I liked about the MoC and Demon!Dean arcs (or why I thought they were interesting) is that Dean was still himself in some ways through those arcs, but it was enough of a new version of him that it felt like there was suddenly more to learn about him. The story (which to me is about the Winchesters' relationship and their lives/journeys) suddenly had a fresh twist in it, imo. It felt to me like some life got breathed back into SPN. For the show to just reset things now makes those storylines feel like such a tease, imo.

 

I thought Sam and Dean had a basically warm/loving relationship from the very beginning of the show, and the first couple seasons were about them getting past the estrangement and growing closer again. Getting to know each other as grown men, instead of as kids? I liked all that at lot.

 

It seemed to me that Sam getting killed at the end of S2 was a major turning point, though. I think that's when their relationship stopped being about becoming closer and started being about saving one another. Even though that's a fine direction for the storyline of their relationship to go in theory, imo in practice it has led to their relationship being written as more and more simplistic and melodramatic, and less and less complex and realistic. So I think it's too bad that it's gone in that direction. YMMV.

 

Sam and Dean spend all their time together.

All. Their. Time.

 

This is one of my favorite things about them. They're in close quarters ALL THE TIME. They have to deal with each other on a day-to-day, minute-to-minute basis, and they both handle that differently. How they compartmentalize is different, how they create separate lives and privacy for themselves is different, how they communicate with each other is different but somehow very mutually intelligible...That's the stuff that I think is interesting. It's almost like they're cellmates or something.

 

Idk, I think their relationship and their family is the most interesting, unique part of the show -- I don't mean stuff like their brother-to-brother talks, I mean the way the show has established their relationship and lifestyle and their background as a family. I don't like the overblown drama between them because it doesn't seem psychologically realistic to me. But I do like the more human, domestic side of the show a lot (when it does go a little "smaller" and has more psychological realism). YMMV.

[mertensia]

I also think they shared a room because DemonDean didn't care that he was naked and Crowley was in the room. Or that he had just had sex and Crowley was in the room.

Edited September 24, 2015 by mertensia

[catrox14]

I also think they shared a room because DemonDean didn't care that he was naked and Crowley was in the room. Or that he had just had sex and Crowley was in the room.

 

It seemed to me that demon!Dean didn't care what anyone thought about what he did. He didn't seem to care who saw him grope a stripper or murder someone. I don't think he would care where he had sex as long as it was to his liking or convenient for him. Similarly, I don't think he cared who might see him naked either. I don't think that is a marker of them being roomies. JMO

[ZennyKenny]

Hello, I'm new! Actually I've been a lurker since forever, but I wasn't able to get that email validation thingie working until tonight.

 

I'm a Supernatural fan, but not a Carver fan. Season 10 was my least favorite season, and after they killed Charlie in such a dumb way I originally vowed to stop watching the show. However, my wife ADORES the show and it's such a great way to bond with her, so I resolved to keep watching it.

 

And then they killed Death.

 

But I've had the whole off-season to let the bitterness fade, and now I am cautiously optimistic about season 11. The promo teaser makes the Darkness have a surreal effect on Sam & Dean (with the black veins and such, and what Jared has said about Sam having visions), So I'm REALLY hoping that it's not just some smart-ass woman. I'm hoping there's more to it. When they first introduced the Darkness, I was hoping that they would treat it similar to the movie "Vanishing On 7th Street". The darkness was a mysterious force that would instantly consume people if it managed to envelope them, so they had to stay in the light. Only the darkness would try to lure the people out with trick light. That's probably asking too much of SPN though.

 

I'm very cautious though because I felt pretty burned by the Season 10 premiere.

 

My thoughts after the season 9 finale: "OMG Dean is a DEMON!!! Normal demons rip out hearts for fun, and Dean has had professional torture training in hell, I bet even other demons will be terrified of him! I wonder if he'll try to takeover Hell and that's why Crowley won't be able to handle him?"

 

Me during the season 10 Premiere: "Oh... Dean's doing karaoke... badly... and getting ushered off-stage... well, that's one way to ring in the 'Year Of The Deanmon', I guess..."

 

So this year I'm going to try to not take it too seriously, and just hope that they are not lying about bringing the boys back together similar to season 1.

[mertensia]

It seemed to me that demon!Dean didn't care what anyone thought about what he did. He didn't seem to care who saw him grope a stripper or murder someone. I don't think he would care where he had sex as long as it was to his liking or convenient for him. Similarly, I don't think he cared who might see him naked either. I don't think that is a marker of them being roomies. JMO

I doubt DemonDean wanted just anyone walking in on him having sex- he's kind of vulnerable then. But Crowley had a key, DemonDean wasn't surprised or angry or anything so yes; I think they were sharing a room.

[7kstar]

Hello, I'm new! Actually I've been a lurker since forever, but I wasn't able to get that email validation thingie working until tonight.

 

I'm a Supernatural fan, but not a Carver fan. Season 10 was my least favorite season, and after they killed Charlie in such a dumb way I originally vowed to stop watching the show. However, my wife ADORES the show and it's such a great way to bond with her, so I resolved to keep watching it.

 

And then they killed Death.

 

But I've had the whole off-season to let the bitterness fade, and now I am cautiously optimistic about season 11. The promo teaser makes the Darkness have a surreal effect on Sam & Dean (with the black veins and such, and what Jared has said about Sam having visions), So I'm REALLY hoping that it's not just some smart-ass woman. I'm hoping there's more to it. When they first introduced the Darkness, I was hoping that they would treat it similar to the movie "Vanishing On 7th Street". The darkness was a mysterious force that would instantly consume people if it managed to envelope them, so they had to stay in the light. Only the darkness would try to lure the people out with trick light. That's probably asking too much of SPN though.

 

I'm very cautious though because I felt pretty burned by the Season 10 premiere.

 

My thoughts after the season 9 finale: "OMG Dean is a DEMON!!! Normal demons rip out hearts for fun, and Dean has had professional torture training in hell, I bet even other demons will be terrified of him! I wonder if he'll try to takeover Hell and that's why Crowley won't be able to handle him?"

 

Me during the season 10 Premiere: "Oh... Dean's doing karaoke... badly... and getting ushered off-stage... well, that's one way to ring in the 'Year Of The Deanmon', I guess..."

 

So this year I'm going to try to not take it too seriously, and just hope that they are not lying about bringing the boys back together similar to season 1.

First Welcome!  That might be an interesting idea for the "darkness"   not sure what they will do so I will wait a bit..

 

I think everyone knows I feel they wasted the Demon Dean storyline possibilities.  Hated Darkness coming from no where when it should have been set up and could have been.  Totally get your feelings on Charlie and NO I don't believe it was needed.  Nor do I believe in order to keep up tension someone has to die.  That is a group think of Hollywood.  A bad idea that keeps lingering and I wish they would get there are many ways to create conflict and keep the fans entertained.

 

Shoot in the old days people watched shows where the conflict was too weak.  My problem is that always trying to make the stakes about death has now actually created a blank reaction to me.  I don't find it thrilling nor does it pull me in.  It just makes me mad and want to stop watching.

 

I'm hoping by not having high hopes, I'll enjoy the season.  I will admit that all the mess ups are giving me tons of ideas for writing but  my time to do so isn't showing up like I wish.

 

So feel free to stop lurking and add to the conversation.  I've found the group to be very interesting.  :)

[Omegamom]

Some simple special effects: oily pools of Darkness hanging around at the edges of almost every scene, sometimes just quivering lightly on the surface, sometimes exuding a thin streamer or two to "test the water", so to speak: Is anyone susceptible to its influence there? Does anyone notice it? And then a streamer slides up to an innocent passerby, slides over his/her shoe, starts to ooze its way up a leg. Cut to a cloud of oily smoke enveloping the person. Then, the next time you see the person, their color is just...off, a bit, and every once in a while, that person's eyes turn shimmering flat gray, and he/she starts acting out whatever she/he desires. (Kinda like the soulless people in the episode where Abaddon is collecting souls.)

It could be cool. Kinda subtle and creepy.

But, nope. Ain't gonna happen.