Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[MysteryGuest]

I didn't think Sam knew Dean was back.  How would he have known?  I think they'd have made mention of that somehow.  I mean Sam thought Dean was gone for good, so if he had just called him up and said "hey I'm alive", I have to think they'd have shown that somehow.  That whole scene was just written very poorly.  

[Demented Daisy]

I thought Sam was leaving Amelia, but had no where else to go, so he went to Rufus' cabin.  It was a coincidence that Dean was there.

 

But I don't trust my memory these days.  I could be remembering it the way I want to.  *shrug*

[Omegamom]

At the start of the episode, after the scene of Dean returning to Earth, etc., there's a scene where Sam is in bed, answers the phone, gets up and packs his duffle and leaves. There's a woman in bed with him. Initially I thought it was Amelia, but after all the Amelia stuff was aired, it couldn't have been, because he'd already left her. Unless they had one last night, and Dean just happened to return to Earth and call Sam just then...

I still want to know if Dean, Cas, or anyone of their friends ever saw Amelia. There's the scene in the bar, after he peeps through her windows to see her with her not-dead-after-all husband...? I can't remember.

Or Demented's idea, that would work, and the phone thing was just Sam's alarm going off...

[catrox14]

I didn't think Sam knew Dean was back.  How would he have known?  I think they'd have made mention of that somehow.  I mean Sam thought Dean was gone for good, so if he had just called him up and said "hey I'm alive", I have to think they'd have shown that somehow.  That whole scene was just written very poorly.  

 

I think they could have chosen to not show it for the 'surprise' effect. They didn't want to give away that the boys were reuniting. I don't understand what reason Sam would have for going to a cabin that was such a memory and tie to the hunting life that he wanted to be so far away from. 

 

I think this is a question someone needs to ask the boys at a convention. Or tweet at someone on the writing staff.  To me, Sam didn't look overly surprised to see Dean there. Again, maybe it was just a weird acting choice.

[DittyDotDot]

At the start of the episode, after the scene of Dean returning to Earth, etc., there's a scene where Sam is in bed, answers the phone, gets up and packs his duffle and leaves. There's a woman in bed with him. Initially I thought it was Amelia, but after all the Amelia stuff was aired, it couldn't have been, because he'd already left her. Unless they had one last night, and Dean just happened to return to Earth and call Sam just then...

I still want to know if Dean, Cas, or anyone of their friends ever saw Amelia. There's the scene in the bar, after he peeps through her windows to see her with her not-dead-after-all husband...? I can't remember.

Or Demented's idea, that would work, and the phone thing was just Sam's alarm going off...

 

It was Amelia who was in bed, but I don't remember the phone going off. All I remember is Sam packing while Amelia was pretending to be asleep. I think after Citizen Fang the idea was that Sam left Amelia, because of Don, and wasn't sure what his next move would be--like DD said. Dean had been leaving Sam messages, but Sam had ditched those phones, so he didn't get them. I think it was just a coincidence that Sam showed up at Rufus' cabin when Dean was there.

 

There is a theory out there that the shadowy figure watching Sam and Amelia's abode was Dean. Like Dean had found Sam, but not yet approached him and followed him and once Sam got close enough to the cabin Dean figured out where he was going and then beat him there. This isn't a theory I subscribe to, but it's a theory, anyway.

 

I'm pretty sure Sam was surprised to see Dean when he got to the cabin, though.

[MysteryGuest]

I just watched the beginning of the episode, and you're right, DittyDot.  Sam is actually at Amelia's house, and he is packing his bag while she's still sleeping (supposedly).  He pets the dog and then looks at her one more time, and then leaves.  When he gets to the cabin, he looks around initially, since he hasn't been there in a while, and then Dean jumps him and they go through their holy water, salt, cutting routine.  I would say Sam definitely did not know Dean was alive until then.

[catrox14]

Well, then that was a terribly acted scene if Sam didn't know Dean was already alive. I thought Sam looked around the cabin expecting to see Dean.  But again that's just how it played to me.  I would think Sam would have be so happy and relieved to see Dean alive but instead he acts like it's a problem that he's alive. So weird.

[MysteryGuest]

Yes, it was definitely an awkwardly written/acted scene.  Sam was surprised, but didn't really seem happy to see Dean.  But that really goes against everything we know about these characters, so it didn't make any sense.  

[SueB]

Sam said he didn't get messages. And he didn't know Dean was alive.

[catrox14]

Sam said he didn't get messages. And he didn't know Dean was alive.

 

 

Sam didn't get Kevin's messages but that doesn't mean he somehow didn't get a call from Dean to meet him at Rufus' cabin off screen that we didn't see. 

 

That said, going with him not knowing makes Sam's reactions nonsensical and Jared's acting choices utterly baffling and not good at all. Sam didn't seem either really relieved to see Dean alive nor overjoyed nor completely gobsmacked to see him.

 

I like my head!canon better with Sam already knowing Dean was alive. That would have given Sam time to process Dean being alive on the drive to the cabin and IMO would make Sam's muted/defensive reactions more understandable. Again that's just my headcanon. I think if I didn't head!canon it that way I would really hate Sam. No one has to go along with my head!canon. It just helps me to not hate Sam in s8.

Edited January 20, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Yes, it was definitely an awkwardly written/acted scene.  Sam was surprised, but didn't really seem happy to see Dean.  But that really goes against everything we know about these characters, so it didn't make any sense.  

 

Sam didn't get Kevin's messages but that doesn't mean he somehow didn't get a call from Dean to meet him at Rufus' cabin off screen that we didn't see. 

 

That said, going with him not knowing makes Sam's reactions nonsensical and Jared's acting choices utterly baffling and not good at all. Sam didn't seem either really relieved to see Dean alive nor overjoyed nor completely gobsmacked to see him.

 

Surprise and wariness, just in case it wasn't Dean?  Then, once he confirmed it was Dean, I'd say the guilt kicked in, which made it difficult for him to be happy that Dean was back.  I mean, he was glad, but the guilt that he didn't try to find Dean kept him from being particularly effusive.

 

But we all have our own head canon.

[DittyDotDot]

Sam didn't get Kevin's messages but that doesn't mean he somehow didn't get a call from Dean to meet him at Rufus' cabin off screen that we didn't see. 

 

Dean said he'd been leaving messages for Sam for days and Sam said he didn't get them because he'd ditched the phones--which, he didn't really ditch them, exactly, because Dean went and got them from the car so he could check his messages later--I guess he meant he just packed them away and forgot about them.

 

Anyway, Sam outright says he didn't know Dean was alive after the hug, "Dude, you're freakin' alive! I mean, what the hell happened?" That's kinda a weird line for someone who knew Dean was alive. But hey, it's not like the show really makes all that much sense generally, so who knows?

[Aeryn13]

 

I mean, he was glad, but the guilt that he didn't try to find Dean kept him from being particularly effusive.

 

And that is something I needed to have seen in the performance, both the being glad and the underlying guilt. Seeing neither just makes this scene and the subsequent ones a fail for me. I can only headcanon when I get at least something to build it on, either through the dialogue or the presentation. 

[catrox14]

 

Anyway, Sam outright says he didn't know Dean was alive after the hug, "Dude, you're freakin' alive! I mean, what the hell happened?" That's kinda a weird line for someone who knew Dean was alive. But hey, it's not like the show really makes all that much sense generally, so who knows?

 

That particular line and line reading along with the rest of that scene is why I question what Sam knew when before arriving at the cabin.

 

Let's say someone you haven't seen or even talked to in years, calls to say they are in town and would  like to meet up. You are shocked to hear from them and know they are okay, but when you see them you say something like "I can't believe you're freaking here!" even though you already knew they were going to be there. That was exactly how that scene came across to me.

 

Once Dean completes the Prove You're Human ritual, Sam refuses to do it and says , "No I believe it's you. " which is totally opposite of what he did when Dean showed up from the dead in Lazarus Rising. Sam tried to stab Dean and if not for Bobby he would have continued to try and kill Dean. Here  Sam just believes Dean is perfectly fine, yet his entire reason for not looking for Dean is because he thought he was too dead and/or in another dimension?  I dunno, maybe they wanted to demonstrate that Sam really had dropped out of hunting so much that he doesn't bother to check if Dean is a monster or possessed.  So bizarre.

 

Dean's behavior when Sam arrives at the cabin  makes me think Dean didn't expect Sam to show up at that cabin but that doesn't necessarily mean Sam didn't know Dean would be there, but more that Dean had been leaving messages and he might have hoped Sam would come but didn't expect him to be there.

 

Again this is my head!canon and it doesn't really change though the ultimate problem is with Sam not looking for Dean or Kevin.

Edited January 20, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the spoiler's thread to be safe. (Minor non-specific spoiler tagged):

 

For me, it`s still like: it`s easier not to be nominated for an Oscar if you`ve already won one than if you never have, never even really were nominated before. Sam is set for life in my mind, he had his moment like that in the sun. Cas came onto the show in Season 4

and he still gets his moment before Dean?

Not a fan of this idea.

I disagree with you of course, because - going with your metaphor - Dean at the very least got himself a major nomination if not a best supporting Oscar when he killed the two season long big bad, the YED - complete with snazzy slow motion effects and little bro laying wounded on the ground watching him. He also has a nice bonding moment with his Dad. Meanwhile Sam does something arguably unheroic - blowing Jake away - so there's that. Dean also took out Dick Roman - I know the argument is that Dean was just there, but he was still there (Sam was MIA) and stepped up to the plate and did it, getting the typical hero's sacrificing demise (sent to purgatory) afterwards where Dean got yet another hero's story, fighting valiantly against all odds and with much risk to himself to save his friend. While in contrast Sam was given a story where he abandoned Kevin and his brother. Several other major Dean wins also occurred, with Dean the solo monster killer, and at least two of those that he, and only he, could've done - Abbadon and Cain (who was going to kill 1/4 of the world's population, and only Dean could've stopped him.)

 

Yes, Sam gets one "Oscar," but partially out of luck - if Dean doesn't show up, Lucifer likely would've won - and to continue the metaphor, Sam also wins at least two Razzies by raising Lucifer and freeing Amara / the Smog Monster. Three if you include the character-assassinating "Sam runs away from his problems and leaves Kevin to Crowley and doesn't look for Dean so he can just forget everything" plot. Castiel himself has two major Razzies - godstiel and the falling angels. The only one who hasn't started a major world threatening event through stupidity - and breaking the first seal doesn't count - is Dean. When Dean starts a major world-threatening event, then I might feel badly for him not getting an even bigger solo win than the several he's already had.

 

And Castiel already had one world saving win in season 9 when he defeated Metatron.

[Aeryn13]

 

Yes, Sam gets one "Oscar," but partially out of luck - if Dean doesn't show up, Lucifer likely would've won

 

The clip I just saw had Dean kicked out of the building where the Awards Ceremony was held. 

 

So as of this moment, my bitterness quadrupled. I didn`t think it was possible to hate Suck Song any more than I did - nothing I ever saw on TV made me that sick to my stomach - but the writers managed to do even that.

 

I guess the message is clear: Dean is out of the running forever. 

[AwesomO4000]

I interpreted that whole scene entirely differently. I commented there in the spoilers.

 

In other words, I have a sneaking suspicion that it's going to be another one of those "damning with faint praise" moments that Carver is sometimes fond of when it comes to Sam.

[Demented Daisy]

 The only one who hasn't started a major world threatening event through stupidity - and breaking the first seal doesn't count - is Dean. 

 

Why doesn't that count?  He did it.  If he hadn't broken that seal, the apocalypse never would have started, no matter how much demon blood Sam drank.

 

If you can say that breaking the seal doesn't count as a Razzie, then I get to say that killing Abbadon isn't an Oscar.  Cain could have killed her because he still had the Mark.  He just didn't want to.  Additionally, Abbadon was a lackluster baddie.  Her only threat was to Crowley, as far as I could tell.  They completely failed, IMO, to establish her as any sort of threat.  So Dean taking the Mark (again, IMO) is another Razzie -- had he never done so, Cain would have never gone off the rails, the Darkness never would have been released, and Death would still be around.  And it sounds like Dean killing Death is going to turn into another Razzie.

 

Here's a sports metaphor: in basketball, if I pass to you, enabling you to score, I get credit for the assist, but you still get the points.  Dean, Cas, and Bobby get the assist in Swan Song; Sam scored the points that won the game.  Plus, Sam has killed his fair share of monsters and saved a whole lot of people.  A couple (or even a handful) of bad decisions don't negate that.  Same goes for Dean.

 

I don't understand why people want to ignore Dean's mistakes and Sam's wins.  (ETA  And vice versa.)

Edited January 20, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[Aeryn13]

 

I don't understand why people want to ignore Dean's mistakes and Sam's wins.

 

Personally, I find that impossible because the show as the source material does exactly the opposite. Dean`s "wins" couldn`t be more belittled, demeaned, retconned into nothing or ignored if they tried. `Meanwhile Sam`s mistakes get, in the end, attributed to something or other Dean did wrong, handled wrong or reacted wrongly to.

[AwesomO4000]

You make a compelling argument, Demented Daisy.

 

For me, I think it is probably the context. Dean's breaking the first seal was an accident. That's what makes it a bit different for me. Dean had no idea that his - rather understandable after 30 years of excruciating torture - getting off the rack and shedding blood would break the first seal.* However all of Castiel's and Sam's bad decisions have always been couched in them being told - often repeatedly - that what they are doing is wrong and going to end badly, but they do it anyway. Interestingly Dean is always a factor in telling them that they shouldn't do it. For me this somehow makes their mistakes look worse - in my opinion anyway. And that the writers always have Dean know that they are gonna screw up and tell them so - and he hasn't really been wrong yet** - make their mistakes somehow seem even more stupid in comparison to Dean's. Now I'm not saying that I want Dean to be "wrong" per se, but it might help if at some point in one of these scenarios, Dean might also have no idea that things are going to go belly up. That's never the case though.

 

And I didn't intend for it to sound like I'd give Dean an Oscar for Abaddon. She was just an example of a major kill that only Dean could do, though you are right. I forgot about Cain. I can't say for sure though that Cain wouldn't have gone off the rails eventually though. And Abaddon was supposedly starting to harvest souls all over the place, so that was kind of a bad thing. (For me Dean's Oscars would be YED and Dick Roman - and in my opinion, his purgatory story which to me was pretty heroic in the classical sense.)

 

And Dean taking the mark might have entirely been a Razzie... except he had a plan that wouldn't have hurt anyone which might've even worked except for Sam - again not listening to Dean - screwed it up, showed up, and forgot to call off Rowena who removed the mark which caused the apocalypse. Dean didn't have the chance to get the award, because Sam ran up on the stage and took it away from him. Again, for me it's context. Dean's supposedly "bad" decisions rarely have bad effects themselves. Usually someone else - generally Sam and/or Castiel - makes it much worse . His "bad" decisions sometimes even have good results. (Gadreel). And for the most part, Dean cleans up his "messes" and then some - he got rid of Dick Roman for Castiel and killed Eve.

 

I also agree that Sam has killed monsters, and I love it when the story lets him do so, but unless I'm remembering wrongly, it's been a long, long time since he's killed anything bigger than a typical stunt demon, werewolf, or vampire (4 or 5 seasons, I think). And often Sam is having to be saved by someone else or is knocked out or is too late (Especially in the Carver era - it bugs me how often he's the damsel. He's huge! Why do little chairs seem to be like Kryptonite for him.) However if you're going to take away Dean's credit for killing Abaddon and Cain, because he partially caused them to be, Sam wouldn't have had to fall into the hole with Lucifer if he hadn't broken the last seal and released Lucifer in the first place. I gave that one to Sam anyway due to the sacrifice, but the argument works both ways.

 

And I hate to even sound petty by counting, but - and this is especially in the Carver era - if you look at the number of monsters and baddies who've been taken off the board in the last 3 or 4 seasons, they aren't even close when you compare Sam and Dean. And if you add in Purgatory, it's got to be like 100 to 1 or more at this point in terms of numbers. And it wouldn't even be an issue for me if not for all of the damseling of Sam recently (and Kevin abandoning, and apocalypse causing, etc.)

 

* The way they were going, I also think that the angels would've gotten Dean to break the seal eventually, even if they had to just throw Dean into hell. Especially once they convinced themselves that God was either dead or had left the building. They weren't afraid of his retribution at that point.

 

** Even with Sam's win at "Swan Song," Dean was at first right. Lucifer at first squashed Sam like a bug. Dean was mostly going to Stull Cemetery to die with Sam. It was mostly just luck - and/or maybe divine intervention (?) - that gave Sam the second chance and the opportunity to win. I still give him that win, though.

[Aeryn13]

 

For me, I think it is probably the context. Dean's breaking the first seal was an accident. That's what makes it a bit different for me. Dean had no idea that his - rather understandable after 30 years of excruciating torture - getting off the rack and shedding blood would break the first seal.

 

And the show made sure to then go "sorry, you are such a wimp, John held out forever" AND have Dean himself later go "your hell will make mine look like Disneyland in comparism" to Sam. So apparently, being tortured for 30 years is apparently not a significant excuse. If only he had been stronger, like all those other characters, he wouldn`t have done so. And he was only in the kiddie part of hell on top of that. 

 

There was a reason the kills of Cain and Abaddon were buried somewhere in the Season and not done with great fanfare in the Finale. Namely, they didn`t really matter to the writers. Nothing about that was supposed to scream "big moment". Let alone "big hero moment". Even with Dick Roman, they went out of their way to make it as lackluster as possible since gosh golly, it`s just Dean doing the deed and not Sam. If they had gotten away with doing it offscreen, it probably would have happened.

 

In the Finale Dean went up against Metatron and got his ass kicked. Can`t make him look too good after all. It couldn`t have at least been a mutual kill. 

 

His "assisst" in Suck Song? Is so pointless you can literally cut it out and still keep the moment intact. As was just proven. 

Edited January 20, 2016 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

 

For me, I think it is probably the context. Dean's breaking the first seal was an accident. That's what makes it a bit different for me. Dean had no idea that his - rather understandable after 30 years of excruciating torture - getting off the rack and shedding blood would break the first seal.*

 

But it wasn't an accident. It was all part of the plan according to Alastair . Lilith was counting on Dean selling his soul for Sam and then breaking under the torture.  That's not an accident. That was intentional.

 

I don't understand how that's anymore accidental than banking on Sam drinking demon blood eventually. 

Edited January 20, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

For me, I think it is probably the context. Dean's breaking the first seal was an accident. That's what makes it a bit different for me. Dean had no idea that his - rather understandable after 30 years of excruciating torture - getting off the rack and shedding blood would break the first seal.*

 

 

And no one thought that killing Lilith would break the last seal -- until it was too late.  So it was just as accidental for Sam as it was Dean.  Neither knew they were going to start the apocalypse.  

 

However all of Castiel's and Sam's bad decisions have always been couched in them being told - often repeatedly - that what they are doing is wrong and going to end badly, but they do it anyway.

 

The way I remember it is that they told Sam that drinking demon blood was wrong, not killing Lilith.  What other bad decisions of Sam's was he told (repeatedly) that it was wrong and going to end badly?

 

Abaddon was supposedly starting to harvest souls all over the place, so that was kind of a bad thing.

 

 

Agreed -- and not much different from what Crowley has been doing for centuries.  So, IMO, she was no worse than Crowley, yet they tried to tell me she was this horrible threat that must be destroyed NOW!  Yeah, okay, whatever.  Had they shown me that, I might agree.  We'll never know, though.

 

Dean's supposedly "bad" decisions rarely have bad effects themselves.

 

 

Oh?  Selling his soul didn't have bad effects?  Taking the Mark didn't have any bad effects?  The jury is still out on killing Death, but I suspect it won't be good (in the show's opinion at the very least).

 

At the end of the day, Sam has been a hero and made mistakes.  But so has Dean.  It's why I love the show and still watch, despite the frustration.  I love a flawed hero.  

[AwesomO4000]

But it wasn't an accident. It was all part of the plan according to Alastair . Lilith was counting on Dean selling his soul for Sam and then breaking under the torture.  That's not an accident. That was intentional.

 

I don't understand how that's anymore accidental than banking on Sam drinking demon blood eventually.

 

 

It was accidental on Dean's part. If Dean had known it would break the seal, that would've been a different story.

 

Sam was told that the blood drinking was wrong. He agreed it was wrong: which was why he stopped. Sam decided to start drinking blood again anyway. Despite the warnings, he made a conscious decision to start again, as he also did when he killed the nurse.

 

To me one is more accidental than the other.

 

The way I remember it is that they told Sam that drinking demon blood was wrong, not killing Lilith.  What other bad decisions of Sam's was he told (repeatedly) that it was wrong and going to end badly?

 

Leading up to the first apocalypse there was also listening to Ruby (Dean started that rant way back in season 3) and using his powers, both of which Sam did, the first of which if he hadn't - and he almost stopped himself - he likely would've stopped short of killing the nurse. Dean also told Sam many times not take on Lilith so soon, because he wasn't ready. In "Monster At the End..." Sam didn't listen to him, and if not for Dean bringing Chuck, Sam would've been killed. For the second apocalypse Dean told Sam not to get into anything to do with taking away the mark, it was too dangerous. There were many incarnations of this even before the Book of the Damned became involved. Then I think Castiel - and Charlie - told him that things were probably going to go badly also (even though they helped him, the warnings were still given). Sam didn't listen. So many things went badly.

 

Those are just the apocalypse bad decisions. There were others like Benny. Dean told Sam repeatedly that Sam was wrong about Benny. Benny was good. Sam didn't listen and went on his own little vendetta against Benny. People died as a result, and as Dean said, Benny was good. Then there was Sam's wall. Dean told Sam more than once not to delve too deeply into his past, because it would poke at the wall. Sam didn't listen. He not only found a huge mess, but he "cracked" the wall and got hell memories. Sam learned his lesson that time and didn't do that any more.

 

This season, Dean told Sam repeatedly that his vision weren't from God and that he shouldn't listen to them. Sam didn't listen, and now he's in the cage with Lucifer where something likely very bad is going to happen as a result of his bad decision. Again.

 

I'm sure there are more for Sam that I'm forgetting. Poor Castiel has a bunch also.

 

Oh?  Selling his soul didn't have bad effects?  Taking the Mark didn't have any bad effects?  The jury is still out on killing Death, but I suspect it won't be good (in the show's opinion at the very least).

 

It's more a matter of degree. Though mostly the bad effects are mainly on Dean himself, but not for others really, not on their own. Even Dean becoming a demon didn't have much effect on anyone else. Sam did more damage on that front than Dean did really - in both getting that poor guy to sell his soul and in likely killing the crossroads demon's host. And I think for me that's the strange paradox. Dean messes up, but it ends up being somewhat minor in comparison to others' messing up, that it doesn't look so much like messing up.

 

I agree about liking my heroes flawed. I do, too. And I actually had few complaints - with the exception of a few for season 4 - until season 8 when Sam started being written with less heroic attributes but a bunch more flaws.

Edited January 21, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[Myrelle]

Sam's flaws have always been the same. Dean's, too. But only one of them gets pimped out the wazoo by the writers after those flaws are highlighted w/o his even having to admit that he has them, and it isn't Dean. That's for sure.

[Demented Daisy]

I suspect we have a whole bunch of confirmation bias.  We see (and concentrate on) what we expect to see.  We remember the things that support our opinions.  The things that don't are easily discarded.

 

But now I have a challenge.  Time for me to make a list.  Yay!  I do so love lists.  If only I could find a job where I could analyze data and make lists all day, I'd be quite happy, I suspect.  Anyway....

[AwesomO4000]

Hee. I can't wait. I do so enjoy your analysis, Demented.

 

And the sad thing is that I didn't used to feel this way... I tell you, season 8 wrecked my attitude towards this show. It went from me waiting with excitement to watch every week to almost dreading it, to actually stopping watching for a few episodes. And then for a long while I was so confused as to how it could all go wrong for me so quickly.

[Demented Daisy]

Looks like a blizzard is heading my way, so I may have plenty of time to analyze and report.  :-)

[SueB]

Looks like a blizzard is heading my way, so I may have plenty of time to analyze and report. :-)

I canceled my flight home (to DC) and am going straight to LA (where I have to be next week), rather than deal with the blizzard.

MY personal version of the "box score" for Team Free Will (in credits order), first is a list of "lead" actions, then a grouping of "key assists". World-impacting consequences in bold (lead) or italics (assist).

Sam:

- Shooting Daddy Winchester in the leg vice killing him: not world saving but showed right judgement

- Drinking Demon Blood: Willful bad judgement. Worst thing he ever did IMO.

- Killing Alastair (a big bad): clutch move

- Killing Lilith/Raising Lucifer: Bad mistake -- but he thought he was STOPPING the Apocalypse.

- Killing Famine: good move, even though he was "high"

- Jumping into the Pit: Redemption move - A+

- Appealing to Cas to let them help when Cas was Godstiel: clutch move, allowed them to stop Cas from destroying the planet when he blew up

- Failed to look for Dean: panic decision - mistake (failing to really explain himself -*facepalm*)

- Taking on the trials, prepared to die, then choosing to live: heroic, final decision understandable (especially given his mental state)

- Prepared to die so Dean couldn't harm anyone (S10 finale): heroic

- Orchestrating removal of the Mark: understandable but selfish

- Critical assists: Killing Jake/foiling YED's plan, stopping the Croatoan virus Pestilence put out, putting together the kill-Dick weapon

Dean:

- Selling his soul: DUMBASS decision because he had no sense of self-worth.

- Killing YED: Hero move

- Breaking the first seal: Mistake, but Dean didn't know it would jumpstart the Apocalypse

- Coming up with the "bind Death" plan to figure out how to save the world...again: clutch move

- Stabbing Dick Roman with the bone: hero move, motivated a bit by revenge

- Stopping Sam from completing the trials: understandable, especially when he realized it was a somewhat suicidal act on Sam's part

- Putting an Angel in Sam: selfish but understandable, probably the worst thing he's done (slight beats out stealing Lisa/Ben's memories)

- Taking on the Mark: DUMBASS decision based on pain of Kevin's death

- Killing Abbadon: Hero move, stopped her demon world domination plan

- Killing people while either a demon or wearing the Mark (#Thinman, Lester, Randy & the Rapists, youngest Stein): understandable but bad

- Killing Death: understandable, but selfish motivation, negative consequences are likely

- Critical assists: interrupting the Big Showdown/getting thru to Sam, Fighting Metatron while Cas was working to defeat him (and getting his ass killed)

Cas:

- Breaking with Heaven to give Dean a chance to stop Sam: hero

- Becoming Godstiel/ killing MANY: woefully misguided

- Trusting Metatron/Angels falling: less dumb, less ass... but not a good move

- Exposing/Stopping Metatron: hero

- Critical assists: 'Hey, assbutt!', Holding Dick Roman while Dean stabbed him, helping with the anti-Mark spell (bad move)

I've probably forgot stuff but that's my take. Whether or not something is "better" than another thing? Meh. Personally opinion. IMO, it's either world-saving/world-disaster or not.

ETA AwesomeO list

That's a pretty great list, SueB. I'm glad that you included Sam appealing to Godstiel and Dean coming up with the binding Death plan, because those often get overlooked, and I loved those episodes of season 7. I think I have a few more for you though, if one day you'd like to add to your list (or feel free to ignore)...

Dean:

- Coming up with how to kill Eve and then letting himself be the bait to do it: stopped Eve's world destruction by monster plan - which was pretty critical. Weirdly got an assist from Crowley?!?

- Killing Cain: saved a bunch of people, though the means were a little on the iffy/bad side.

- "Killing himself" to ask Death to get Sam's soul: not world-saving but still bro-worthy and heroic.

Assist: Distracted Metatron while Castiel found the tablet so Cas could destroy Metatron's power source.

Sam:

- Killed Samhain: Good, but means maybe not so much

- Figuring out how to get Dean back in "Time After Time...": Not world-saving, but bro-worthy.

Assist: Got Samuel Colt to lend them the Colt and send the ashes needed for Dean's kill Eve plan

Castiel:

- Taking on Sam's crazy to save him from dying: not world saving, but still heroic.

- Tried to save Sam from hell: well-intentioned, but inevitably a mistake. (Not checking up on why Sam was "off" - *faceplam*)

Assist: Risked his health to send Sam and Dean back in time to get the Phoenix's ashes needed for Dean's kill Eve plan.

Sam/Dean Tag Team:

- Taking down War.

Team Free Will Tag Team: Stopped Anna from killing John and Mary... Dean's potential mom and/or world saving plan thwarted by Michael (Jerk)

Edited January 21, 2016 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

That's a pretty great list, SueB. I'm glad that you included Sam appealing to Godstiel and Dean coming up with the binding Death plan, because those often get overlooked, and I loved those episodes of season 7. I think I have a few more for you though, if one day you'd like to add to your list (or feel free to ignore)...

 

Dean:

- Coming up with how to kill Eve and then letting himself be the bait to do it: stopped Eve's world destruction by monster plan - which was pretty critical. Weirdly got an assist from Crowley?!?

- Killing Cain: saved a bunch of people, though the means were a little on the iffy/bad side.

- "Killing himself" to ask Death to get Sam's soul: not world-saving but still bro-worthy and heroic.

Assist: Distracted Metatron while Castiel found the tablet so Cas could destroy Metatron's power source.

 

Sam:

- Killed Samhain: Good, but means maybe not so much

- Figuring out how to get Dean back in "Time After Time...": Not world-saving, but bro-worthy.

Assist: Got Samuel Colt to lend them the Colt and send the ashes needed for Dean's kill Eve plan

 

Castiel:

- Taking on Sam's crazy to save him from dying: not world saving, but still heroic.

- Tried to save Sam from hell: well-intentioned, but inevitably a mistake. (Not checking up on why Sam was "off" - *faceplam*)

Assist: Risked his health to send Sam and Dean back in time to get the Phoenix's ashes needed for Dean's kill Eve plan.

 

Sam/Dean Tag Team:

- Taking down War.

 

Team Free Will Tag Team: Stopped Anna from killing John and Mary... Dean's potential mom and/or world saving plan thwarted by Michael (Jerk)

[SueB]

That's a pretty great list, SueB. I'm glad that you included Sam appealing to Godstiel and Dean coming up with the binding Death plan, because those often get overlooked, and I loved those episodes of season 7. I think I have a few more for you though, if one day you'd like to add to your list (or feel free to ignore)...

Dean:

- Coming up with how to kill Eve and then letting himself be the bait to do it: stopped Eve's world destruction by monster plan - which was pretty critical. Weirdly got an assist from Crowley?!?

- Killing Cain: saved a bunch of people, though the means were a little on the iffy/bad side.

- "Killing himself" to ask Death to get Sam's soul: not world-saving but still bro-worthy and heroic.

Assist: Distracted Metatron while Castiel found the tablet so Cas could destroy Metatron's power source.

Sam:

- Killed Samhain: Good, but means maybe not so much

- Figuring out how to get Dean back in "Time After Time...": Not world-saving, but bro-worthy.

Assist: Got Samuel Colt to lend them the Colt and send the ashes needed for Dean's kill Eve plan

Castiel:

- Taking on Sam's crazy to save him from dying: not world saving, but still heroic.

- Tried to save Sam from hell: well-intentioned, but inevitably a mistake. (Not checking up on why Sam was "off" - *faceplam*)

Assist: Risked his health to send Sam and Dean back in time to get the Phoenix's ashes needed for Dean's kill Eve plan.

Sam/Dean Tag Team:

- Taking down War.

Team Free Will Tag Team: Stopped Anna from killing John and Mary... Dean's potential mom and/or world saving plan thwarted by Michael (Jerk)

All excellent. I'm going to blatantly add those to my list. Thanks.

[catrox14]

I feel I might be taking up residence in the bitterness thread after 11.10

[Aeryn13]

When Dean puked in the episode, basically that was me.

 

The reason I feel about the Sam-character the way I do now is the uber-ultra-snowflaking and extreme stanning, mostly done at Dean`s expense, over the years. This episode had maybe the most blatant onscreen-stanning yet so you can imagine how I felt about that.

 

Add to that how we`re back to Dean being completely pointless in mytharc episodes. Get Sam his own Golem who has no thought in his brain but "Sam, Sam, Sam" and be done with it.  

 

Now that we have Casifer, we might get Michael!Sam or Michael!Adam or Michael!Cas if Sam becomes Samifer again but the chances of Michael!Dean are zilch. Crowley will be the perfect vessel before him. 

 

It`s fitting that this episode referenced Suck Song onscreen because crap calling back to shit is almost poetic.

 

More and more I believe "The End" was actually the last good episode of the show. After that, Season 5 went to shit. They botched the 100th episode and the Finale. And despite (wasted) potential here and there, it never recovered. 

[Ria]

Go figure. The reason I'm sick of Dean is because he is the most specialist snowflake ever to grace a TV screen. The entire show has always been devoted to Dean's awesomeness at the expense of every other character.

[mertensia]

In a larger sense Dean is absolutely necessary because he is the starter: the one who makes the rest happen. He pushes the plot along. It's not a starring role but it's important. Without Dean Sam would have...what? Drifted after Jess's death? Spent all his time obsessively tracking John? Certainly easier prey for Azazel and thus Lucifer.

On the other hand he deserves him own time in the limelight, his own wins, his own completed storylines as he is one of two leads for the show.

[MysteryGuest]

I've always thought that the show might have started out with Sam as the central character, but when they realized what a good actor they had in Jensen, they couldn't help but flesh out Dean's character a bit more.  They'd have been stupid not to.  What might have been a true supporting role turned into a co-starring role.  I could be wrong, but based on what Kripke has said in interviews, that's always been my take on it.

[Aeryn13]

 

What might have been a true supporting role turned into a co-starring role.

 

I think they are making strides to do so every now and then but in the end (or rather before the Seasons) when they put together the rough strands of their narratives and break down Seasonal arcs, they are incapable of not reverting right back to the default formula of "Sam = the only central character, Dean (and everyone else) = support". This seems like a mantra of the show and it stayed the same through diffrent incarnations of various showrunners.

[7kstar]

I've always thought that the show might have started out with Sam as the central character, but when they realized what a good actor they had in Jensen, they couldn't help but flesh out Dean's character a bit more.  They'd have been stupid not to.  What might have been a true supporting role turned into a co-starring role.  I could be wrong, but based on what Kripke has said in interviews, that's always been my take on it.

Kripke has always said that it was a Luke and Han  characters.  Now some LOVE Han way over Luke.  But both are needed.  No matter what the show does, some fan feels their character has been wronged over the other.

 

The last one had a bigger focus on Sam, but Dean's moments did give Sam the means to hang on and not say yes.  Of course we can't say the same for Cas.

 

I would just love to see something original, to be surprised.  Now that I know Cas said yes, Rowena is dead, I doubt their killing Crowley yet...but I would like to be in I wonder what they will do next?  Instead of not really caring one way or another.

 

I mean by that, I don't have a sense of urgency, or a sense of suspense.  I'm hoping that the next ep will go in a slightly new direction, but I'm not counting on it. 

 

The one good thing  I'm liking Billie, but wished she had more to do, I like the brothers still supporting each other.  But if this show was expecting me to feel like I'm going through the ringer, well they failed.  Hopefully the next ep will add something interesting instead of treading water.  JMO. 

 

I will say since my expectations are low, I'm hating the season a lot less than I did season 7.  Still have only watched Season 7 one time.  However, I do find sometimes time allows the heart to grow fonder than when you watched it live.  :)

[MysteryGuest]

Oh I definitely think Dean's character was needed, but I also believe that once they knew what they had in Jensen, they gave him a bigger role to play.  Sam was still going to be the central character because of the whole "demon blood" thing, but Dean has been given some decent scenes through the years to really show off his acting chops.  As a Dean fan, I wish they'd give him more, but I think all in all, they both get equal screen time.  

 

Before the season started, I was really sort of hoping that they'd get back to more MOTW episodes, while trying to figure out the darkness and how to beat it (her).  All that talk about the brothers learning to trust each other again, working together, etc., made me hopeful.  Baby was a lot of fun, as were a couple other episodes this year.  I honestly never saw them dredging up Lucifer again...probably because it was the last thing I wanted them to do.  When all signs started pointing that way, I was pretty disappointed.  It just seems like a boring rehash.

 

Maybe they can make it interesting with Casifer, but I just don't see how that's going to play out in a way that's believable.  As has been pointed out elsewhere, it was a huge deal getting rid of Lucifer the first time, so how exactly are they going to make it happen this time?  And then there's Amara?  Short of God intervening (which I really don't want to see), I can't see how this gets resolved in a satisfying way.

[7kstar]

Oh I definitely think Dean's character was needed, but I also believe that once they knew what they had in Jensen, they gave him a bigger role to play.  Sam was still going to be the central character because of the whole "demon blood" thing, but Dean has been given some decent scenes through the years to really show off his acting chops.  As a Dean fan, I wish they'd give him more, but I think all in all, they both get equal screen time.  

 

 

 

Maybe they can make it interesting with Casifer, but I just don't see how that's going to play out in a way that's believable.  As has been pointed out elsewhere, it was a huge deal getting rid of Lucifer the first time, so how exactly are they going to make it happen this time?  And then there's Amara?  Short of God intervening (which I really don't want to see), I can't see how this gets resolved in a satisfying way.

Oh IA that it started with Sam being the lead...Jensen has confirmed this in an interview.  I also have seen that when an actor goes beyond expectations, they will give stronger material to make use of that talent.  I loved both brothers at the beginning with Dean being higher on my list.  I like Han too.    So I get the I wish they wouldn't drop a storyline. as I've felt that way too.  But I still see both being used in a pretty balanced way.  I don't always love the direction that they put them in, but I don't think any fan would be happy all the time.

 

As for the Cas/Lucifer...I don't expect much to it.  Look how they ended the Mark and such.  Poof, oh I forgot to mention...we have this thing called the darkness, did I forget to tell you it was tied to the mark and it's a really big deal.  They seem to whimper on the big story endings...I just hope we get a few good moments.   Crowley in a onesie was pretty funny.  So I'm just hoping for a few laughs.  I suspect I won't be satisfied with the wrap up.  They've failed a few times too many and I'm including Kripke - Carver. 

[Aeryn13]

Screentime was never an issue for me. All in all, I would say Jensen gets a bit more of it comparatively. It`s quality, not quantity I`ve taken issue with.

 

And the Luke/Han comparism really drives it home. Luke was the main character of the trilogy, the one the narrative centered around. Han and even Leia were sidekicks. It just didn`t come across so obvious because we`re only talking about three movies here, roughly 6 hours of screentime. And in the build-up movie, everyone had strong roles. In the second movie, they split the characters up into different storylines which were basically the furthering of Luke`s Chosen One arc as well as the developing romance of Han and Leia during their escape. In a way the latter was just a part of the former because ultimately they were hunted to be bait for Luke, It was just that the characters were fun and engaging, their romantic chemistry cute and their scenes really dynamic that IMO the story worked so well. A "shoved off to the sidelines for romance" plot can quickly fall on its face otherwise. By movie 3, however, the sidekickdom becomes a lot more pronounced.

 

Outside popularity and response is a whole different matter. The sidekicks often become more beloved and vibrant characters due to the creators really force-feeding the Chosen One. Personally, I like Luke better than Han on SW whereas I far prefer Dean on SPN. It depends for me. 

 

Here on SPN, we have a show in its 11th Season, roughly 200+ episodes. You can only give the sidekick so much to do before it really, really becomes obvious they are not an equal lead. And this show passed that point several years ago. I also never once believed in the "POV is so equal and important" stuff. For me, the important character is the one the narrative revolves around, no matter who the narrator is.

 

I want Dean`s story, not Dean`s perspective on Sam`s story. Sorry, not interested. Sam can have a story and a POV on it, just don`t expect me to be much interested in it, but I want DEAN to have a story too.  

 

Normally, Dean gets the emo-crap to keep him busy during Sam mytharc storylines. That is classic sidekickdom to me. And yes, occassionally Dean mytharc storylines get introduced but the handling of them is far from what I have seen them do or see them do with Sam`s Chosen One plots. It always comes across more with "okay, we`re broken down the stories, now we have to come up with something that justifies the Dean-character being onscreen". Well, thanks for nothing.  

Edited January 24, 2016 by Aeryn13

[MysteryGuest]

I totally get what you're saying, Aeryn13, and I don't disagree.  One of my biggest disappointments was Demon Dean.  Three episodes??  That was it?  I was totally pissed.  And while I enjoy Dean/Crowley scenes, I really wish they'd gone a bit darker.  They played a lot of it for laughs, which gets on my nerves sometimes.  If they were going to go there, then why not make him really evil?  I'm not talking about having him just run around killing innocent people, but just darker.  They showed a few glimpses of that...his confrontation scene with Crowley, the last scene with the girl (I can't remember her name right this second), and the scene with him in the back of the car.  Jensen really sold the "demon" part in those few scenes, and I wanted much more.   

[DittyDotDot]

So, I've been pondering how, only a couple years ago, I would rush home after an 18-to 20-hour Wednesday and instead of getting some much needed rest, I'd stay up and watch Supernatural. Fast forward to this week: I worked a 18-hour Wednesday, got home at 4 a.m. and even though this is the first episode back from the hiatus, I decided to get a couple hours of sleep and didn't even watch the episode for another two day. Yes, I was busy, but in the past I always managed to eek out the time needed to watch the show...yeah, I know...

 

In other bitter-related news: apparently Cass is unimportant and expendable so they turned him into the Devil. Sigh.

[Demented Daisy]

Sorry I haven't completed my analysis.  Life intervened.  Four days without water in the kitchen.  Ugh.  Then the blizzard hit and the dogs are making me crazy and....  Double ugh.

 

Anyway, the idea was that I was going to analyze all the episodes to determine who created the plan, who saved the PiP, and who got the kill.  I've made it through the first season, if anyone is interested.

[AwesomO4000]

Me me! *raises hand*

 

As I said, I love your analyses... And I'm really interested in how it's all going to look after it's done.

 

I predict a relatively even split for the first few seasons - not sure about season 4, because we have blood-addicted Sam (with a Ruby undercover, so making Sam think she's "good" is important), but also PTSD Dean - then a small shift after season 5, and a larger one starting season 8. I'll try to be patient, since I know you have much better things to do, but at least I'll have the first season.

 

*Goes back to watching the football game and putting off the bulletin review I'm supposed to be doing... ehn I have until Friday, and I can do it at actual work. Oh, and also "Go Broncos" (There is no real reason I should be rooting for the Broncos - I was born in Massachusetts - but have been doing so since the late 80's. I was a fan of Elway and the way he played, and there were a bunch of former Gators on the team.. and I liked Ed McCaffrey and Shannon Sharpe and Rod Smith. And the oddball defense who wouldn't speak to the press and formerly including a deaf player - where the defense used to hold hands when they played. And I guess it kinda stuck, even through the lean years.)

Me me! *raises hand*

 

As I said, I love your analyses... And I'm really interested in how it's all going to look after it's done.

 

I predict a relatively even split for the first few seasons - not sure about season 4, because we have blood-addicted Sam (with a Ruby undercover, so making Sam think she's "good" is important), but also PTSD Dean - then a small shift after season 5, and a larger one starting season 8. I'll try to be patient, since I know you have much better things to do, but at least I'll have the first season.

 

*Goes back to watching the football game and putting off the bulletin review I'm supposed to be doing... ehn I have until Friday, and I can do it at actual work. Oh, and also "Go Broncos" (There is no real reason I should be rooting for the Broncos - I was born in Massachusetts - but have been doing so since the late 80's. I was a fan of Elway and the way he played, and there were a bunch of former Gators on the team.. and I liked Ed McCaffrey and Shannon Sharpe and Rod Smith. And the oddball defense who wouldn't speak to the press and formerly including a deaf player - where the defense used to hold hands when they played. And I guess it kinda stuck, even through the lean years.)

[DittyDotDot]

Sorry I haven't completed my analysis.  Life intervened.  Four days without water in the kitchen.  Ugh.  Then the blizzard hit and the dogs are making me crazy and....  Double ugh.

 

Anyway, the idea was that I was going to analyze all the episodes to determine who created the plan, who saved the PiP, and who got the kill.  I've made it through the first season, if anyone is interested.

 

Can't wait. Will there be charts and graphs and lots of arrows? ;)

 

Seriously though, I'm generally of the opinion that keeping score like this is a pointless exercise, but I gotta admit, I'm very curious and really want to see it all. I've secretly wished I had the time to do this for some time now. I'm probably colored by the fact that I don't like to choose favorites and such, but I'm banking on it being pretty even...more or less.

 

::thrumps fingers on table::  I'm waiting... ;)

[SueB]

@AwesomeO..... Did you ever think 'Brick Holmes' of 8.3 was a hint at Elway??

Edited January 24, 2016 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

I`d guess the standalones probably come about as even-ish. While the first half of Season 6 and last half of Season 8 will likely lose Dean major points, in my recollection Season 1 and the first half of Season 2 should off-set those. Mytharc-wise, while the narrative should be way more Sam-heavy due to all the years where he was the plot, Dean might have gotten a more active part in a few latter Seasons.

 

I`d still put the Suck Song moment about 200 to 1 to any given episode, though. So to make up for it, Dean would need to get 200 episodes straight of sole heroics for me to call it even. With the math at hand, this is an unreachable goal, I know. Unless he gets one episode just like ti. Then I`d call it a tie.    

 

 

I'm probably colored by the fact that I don't like to choose favorites

 

For me that`s really an automatic response. In all the movies, TV-shows or books I didn`t hate from the start, I always automatically had a favourite pretty much right from the start. 

Edited January 24, 2016 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

I don't pick favorites....they pick me. I can't help it.

[AwesomO4000]

@AwesomeO..... Did you ever think 'Brick Holmes' of 8.3 was a hint at Elway??

 

*hangs head in shame*

 

I have not seen the majority of that episode (nor any of "Bitten"). During the original run, the first episode of the season pissed me off, and though the second one was better, it really didn't do anything to convince me that the show wasn't going in a "Sam is a jerk, look at how great Benny and Castiel are to Dean" direction, so I put the show aside for a for a couple of episodes. When I caught the last few moments of this episode on TNT later, with Sam being a bitchy jerk and the inane birthday picnic flashback,*  it did not give me any incentive to go back and watch the rest of the episode either.

 

When I came back to watching SPN again in real time - episode 5 - I came back with a different attitude, deciding that fine, if they were going to insist on Sam's character assassination and Benny the good and sparkly vampire who was a better brother than Sam, then I'll hate-watch it... which is what I did through the rest of the first half (at least) of season 8.

 

Though I suppose eventually I should watch the episode and "Bitten", because those are the only 2 episodes I haven't watched and that are keeping me from having seen every episode.

 

But long story short, I can't answer your very thoughtful question, since I never did see the story.

 

* Which what the hell was that? And really with the way that was filmed all bright and soft/fuzzy light-y like some one-off Star Trek heroine? And way to retcon everything show: like I'm going to believe neither Dean nor Jessica never had a birthday celebration for Sam. *rolls eyes*