Iris West

[adora721]

What's the history with CW_Flash Twitter account when it comes to Iris and CP? On that account, there's no picture of Iris in the countdown to the 100th episode. Even if CP missed the booth, they could have posted a vid (like they have of GG below his booth picture) talking about the 100th episode.

 I also went to the CW website and found CP listed fourth instead of third in their social directory. Do the PR people not get any blowback for such disrespectful behavior?

Edited December 4, 2018 by adora721

[SevenStars]

43 minutes ago, adora721 said:

What's the history with CW_Flash Twitter account when it comes to Iris and CP? On that account, there's no picture of Iris in the countdown to the 100th episode. Even if CP missed the booth, they could have posted a vid (like they have of GG below his booth picture) talking about the 100th episode.

 I also went to the CW website and found CP listed fourth instead of third in their social directory. Do the PR people not get any blowback for such disrespectful behavior?

I can't answer any of your questions. But I think they don't get blow back because most people, like me, don't check out stuff like this. 

[BeautifulFlower]

On 12/4/2018 at 3:16 PM, adora721 said:

What's the history with CW_Flash Twitter account when it comes to Iris and CP? On that account, there's no picture of Iris in the countdown to the 100th episode. Even if CP missed the booth, they could have posted a vid (like they have of GG below his booth picture) talking about the 100th episode.

 I also went to the CW website and found CP listed fourth instead of third in their social directory. Do the PR people not get any blowback for such disrespectful behavior?

According to some Iris fans, it's bad. Whoever runs the account always disrespects CP? I remembered earlier this year when she and Carlos were cropped out of a pic. I've seen the 4x23 promotional still with those two in them ad that's how people knew they taken out. Someone even replied in the comments with the original pic, and surprise, the pic fit. Now, the 100th episode promotion.

As I said, the account always disrespected her. CP doesn't even follow the account anymore

[SevenStars]

19 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

According to some Iris fans, it's bad. Whoever runs the account always disrespects CP? I remembered earlier this year when she and Carlos were cropped out of a pic. I've seen the 4x23 promotional still with those two in them ad that's how people knew they taken out. Someone even replied in the comments with the original pic, and surprise, the pic fit. Now, the 100th episode promotion.

As I said, the account always disrespected her. CP doesn't even follow the account anymore

From what I know, CP stopped following most of the Flash official accounts a while back.

[Brinny]

On ‎2018‎-‎12‎-‎04 at 3:16 PM, adora721 said:

What's the history with CW_Flash Twitter account when it comes to Iris and CP? On that account, there's no picture of Iris in the countdown to the 100th episode. Even if CP missed the booth, they could have posted a vid (like they have of GG below his booth picture) talking about the 100th episode.

 I also went to the CW website and found CP listed fourth instead of third in their social directory. Do the PR people not get any blowback for such disrespectful behavior?

I can't even comprehend how the network could be so tone deaf about their own show.  I feel like the writing goes out of its way to point out that there is no Flash without Iris.  How can they ignore the person who essentially portrays the literal other half of the title character?  Makes no sense. 

(For the record, I like that they reiterate how important Iris is to both Barry and his alter-ego, because she is important. The Barry/Iris relationship is one of the reasons I checked out the show and it's definitely one of the reasons why I marathoned it in record time. In almost any episode (weak, strong, mediocre), I feel like the Barry/Iris scenes are always such a constant.  And CP is a HUGE part of that. I honestly doubt that the character of Iris would be as successful if there was another actor in that role.) 

[BeautifulFlower]

I just saw post on reddit where someone asked if anybody else thought Iris was a bitch to Nora. If this isn't proof that Iris haters see what they want to see, I don't know what will. How do you watch 5A and think Iris was being a bitch? Iris kept trying to connect to Nora. whom was being distant and giving Iris the cold shoulder for something she didn't even do. 

[SimoneS]

3 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I just saw post on reddit where someone asked if anybody else thought Iris was a bitch to Nora. If this isn't proof that Iris haters see what they want to see, I don't know what will. How do you watch 5A and think Iris was being a bitch? Iris kept trying to connect to Nora. whom was being distant and giving Iris the cold shoulder for something she didn't even do. 

Trolls are going to troll. Surprisingly, I think that the Flash Reddit is one of the better forums for Iris and Barry and Iris as a couple. Iris has quite a few fans who defend her there even though the misogyny is strong there, the racism is more undercover. In contrast, the hate for Felicity and Oliver/Felicity in that Arrow Reddit can be crazy.

Edited December 28, 2018 by SimoneS

[Velocity23]

On 28. 12. 2018 at 11:57 PM, SimoneS said:

Trolls are going to troll. Surprisingly, I think that the Flash Reddit is one of the better forums for Iris and Barry and Iris as a couple. Iris has quite a few fans who defend her there even though the misogyny is strong there, the racism is more undercover. In contrast, the hate for Felicity and Oliver/Felicity in that Arrow Reddit can be crazy.

Because the character that was originally planned as a cool easter egg dared to become vital in the life of Oliver Queen. They liked her enough when they thought it was a one-sided crush from Felicity, but as soon the show established a romance between Oliver and Felicity and let Felicity to step outside the little box they put her in, they have been pretty intense in their hate. But then it feels like any female on Arrow is hated when she is active and actively speaks her mind (they also blame Oliver/Felicity that Laurel was killed, when the couple was seperated 3 episodes before her death and only reunited at the end of next season). Until  female character wears a suit its like a lot of problems with the character is non-existant. One can see it with Killer Frost and how everything gets excused because she wears a suit. 

[Starry]

I haven't checked Reddit in a while but as far as I remember that's not exactly a positive place for Iris/WestAllen fans. Last year it was a cesspool of misogyny and coded racial BS with thread after thread mocking the "We are the Flash" phrase and questioning a barista's right to lead a team of scientists. It's s5, Barry and Iris have been married for a year, their child is here and they are still trolling wondering about perceived "incest". I am not as familiar with the Arrow sub but since the Iris detractors in the Flash sub are "concerned" about Iris becoming the "new Felicity" it's not that difficult for me to believe that Felicity/Olicity get a lot of hate in there as well. The most hilarious thing about it is that the people throwing hissy fits about Felicity and mourning Laurel/Lauriver are likely the same ones that were trashing Laurel and clamoring for Olicity in s1. They just have their sexist ideas of how a main love interest should act and are mad that these women don't live up to their standards.

I think the suit-wearing characters get favored by the writers but I'm not sure that's true about the fandom. Reddit fanboys seem to hate any woman that has the male lead's devotion/affection, that holds some sort of power over him. They may prefer Killer Frost but have never hated Caitlin when she was the resident team doctor and had no powers. Kara wears a suit and they hate Supergirl "feminist crap". Nora wears a suit and when I was in there she used to get hate threads, way more hate threads than pre-Killer Frost Caitlin has ever gotten. Patty, or Booty Spivot as they like to call her, didn't wear a suit and she's Reddit ideal Arrowverse love interest. IMO it's because she had 0 power over Barry and was the one constantly chasing after him. I believe that if Patty had lasted longer there would have been some drama with the couple and they would have turned against her the same way they turned on Felicity, maybe on a lesser scale only because the alternative is a black woman and racism would have kicked in but I'm 100% she would have had less people missing her.

[SimoneS]

3 minutes ago, Starry said:

I haven't checked Reddit in a while but as far as I remember that's not exactly a positive place for Iris/WestAllen fans. Last year it was a cesspool of misogyny and coded racial BS with thread after thread mocking the "We are the Flash" phrase and questioning a barista's right to lead a team of scientists. It's s5, Barry and Iris have been married for a year, their child is here and they are still trolling wondering about perceived "incest". I am not as familiar with the Arrow sub but since the Iris detractors in the Flash sub are "concerned" about Iris becoming the "new Felicity" it's not that difficult for me to believe that Felicity/Olicity get a lot of hate in there as well. The most hilarious thing about it is that the people throwing hissy fits about Felicity and mourning Laurel/Lauriver are likely the same ones that were trashing Laurel and clamoring for Olicity in s1. They just have their sexist ideas of how a main love interest should act and are mad that these women don't live up to their standards.

I wasn't around that forum last year so I missed the attacks on Iris. This season, I still see "We are the Flash" sarcasm, but those people get knocked back. Nora has quite a few fans there now which has put the kibosh on the incest i.e. racist moaners. Maybe the tone has changed somewhat because some of the worse have left. Reddit's mods have been taking a harder line on overt racism which might have pushed out some posters.

I agree about the misogynistic attitudes towards all women on these superhero tv shows. A lot of these so called men are living in a 1950s which never existed. It is notable that the comic characters Iris and Lois (Superman) were decades ahead of their time in terms of being independent career women who were definitely not portrayed as submissive to their men. 

[adora721]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I agree about the misogynistic attitudes towards all women on these superhero tv shows. A lot of these so called men are living in a 1950s which never existed. It is notable that the comic characters Iris and Lois (Superman) were decades ahead of their time in terms of being independent career women who were definitely not portrayed as submissive to their men. 

There's a regressive trend among many of the fan boys/men towards female comic characters. For example, there's a male YT reviewer who views Iris disagreeing with or correcting Barry as emasculating and demeaning him. However, I've heard that Iris in the comics is very blunt and sometimes harsh with Barry in a way I've never seen TV Iris behave.

Another male YT reviewer hates when Superman states that Kara is stronger than him on "Supergirl", even though Supergirl is stronger than Superman in the comics. Perhaps it's in the delivery of the information, but who knows.

[SimoneS]

41 minutes ago, adora721 said:

There's a regressive trend among many of the fan boys/men towards female comic characters. For example, there's a male YT reviewer who views Iris disagreeing with or correcting Barry as emasculating and demeaning him. However, I've heard that Iris in the comics is very blunt and sometimes harsh with Barry in a way I've never seen TV Iris behave.

Very true. In various versions of the comics, Iris has been critical of Barry and even occasionally called him out. Although she isn't as tough on him as Lois was on Clark, Iris is not the submissive fan girl doormat that these fan boys/men are demanding. They probably didn't like her in the comics and dislike her even more now that she occasionally disagrees with Barry, has agency, and is portrayed by an African American actress.

Edited December 30, 2018 by SimoneS

[Trini]

Iris hasn't had her own set since CC Picture News disappeared in season 3, so the new Central City Citizen office is promising.

I think it would have been simpler if they had Iris start a job at an already established CCC and then have her move up in the ranks, but I guess then they'd have to actually fill that workplace with extras and co-workers for her to interact with.

In any case, I hope they start doing a better job at incorporating her career into storylines. They've had some baby steps of progress this season, but shouldn't be that hard to involve her more in metahuman or crime-related things.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Trini
typos quoted again! shakes fist

[SimoneS]

12 hours ago, Trini said:

Iris hasn't had her own set since CC Picture News disappeared in season 3, so the new Central City Citizen office is promising.

I think it would have simpler if they had Iris start a job at an already established CCC and then have her move up in the ranks, but I guess then they'd have to actually fill that workplace with extras and co-workers for her to interact with.

In any case, I hope they start doing a better job at incorporating her career into storylines. They've had some baby steps of progress this season, but shouldn't be that hard to involve her more in metahuman or crime-related things.

I am not optimistic, but it would be nice to see CC Picture News every now and then. 

[BeautifulFlower]

I just need them to do better. Journalism is apart of Iris character in the comics, yet these writers don't do anything. Hold up, I shouldn't say writers. After all, their scripts have to be approved first. The blame lies on the EPs. 

Now when AJK was here, I understood why Iris got bit and pieces of doing journalism. That man clearly didn't care about her journalism or her character period. As I said before, if Geoff didn't have power over him, I bet Iris wouldn't have been included in the series at all.

Moving on, I thought things would be different this season as AJK influence is gone. Sure, we had doing more reporting than before, but it's not that big of an improvement. I'm glad they had Iris buying and starting up her own newspaper. However, it came out of left field. There was no build up to Iris ever wanting to start her own newspaper in the first half. After 5x05, her screentime was decreased and she had nothing to do. Then BAM!!!! She was looking for places to start up the paper? What? 

Iris is the female lead. She's a major character from the comics this show is BASED ON. Why can't they write her doing journalism? It's not that hard. I'm tired of Candice constantly mentioning how she fighting for Iris to have a journalism plot. She shouldn't have to fight. 

[Katsullivan]

On 2/2/2019 at 11:04 AM, BeautifulFlower said:

Moving on, I thought things would be different this season as AJK influence is gone.

It's becoming more and more clear that the only difference between AJK's misogynoir and Geoff's is that AJK was more blatant about it. 

[SimoneS]

5 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

It's becoming more and more clear that the only difference between AJK's misogynoir and Geoff's is that AJK was more blatant about it. 

I don't agree with this. Geoff Johns isn't directly involved in the show's production. If anyone deserves the finger pointed at it is Helbing, but I am willing to give him some slack because I think that Iris has gone in the right direction under his tenure. Yes, he hasn't figured out how to consistently incorporate her journalism into the main story, but she has become a more central character and has more agency now. 

On 2/2/2019 at 11:04 AM, BeautifulFlower said:

Iris is the female lead. She's a major character from the comics this show is BASED ON. Why can't they write her doing journalism? It's not that hard. I'm tired of Candice constantly mentioning how she fighting for Iris to have a journalism plot. She shouldn't have to fight. 

I think the main issue is that like most other love interests, Iris is often sidelined or her whole existence is tied to Barry in the comics so most of the writers who are comic book fans have struggled with how to integrate Iris into Barry's main superhero stories in the show after his secret was revealed. I reread The Flash: Rebirth over the holiday. 

Spoiler

I was struck by how Iris and the children only exist on the periphery of this important story about Barry's return from the dead. Iris is only substantially present when Thawne goes back to the past and tries to kill her before she and Barry go on their first and even then it is for a couple of pages.

Edited February 27, 2019 by SimoneS

[SimoneS]

Iris is also gets sidelined because this is Barry's story so every main story revolves around him. Joe is more his father than her's.  

Also, when I was re-watching the show, the swings towards and away from misogyny made my head spin, especially in the first two seasons. In the season two episode where Harry arrives, Joe gives Iris a gun because he says that Eddie is no longer around to protect her. Uh? We saw Iris use Eddie's gun to save him, Joe, and a bunch of people when they were kidnapped by the Clock guy and she helped save herself and Barry from Tony. Even if Joe and Barry weren't going to her the truth, rather than infantilize Iris, Joe could have given her a gun to protect herself in the event that any bad guys came after her.  

At first I thought they were just doing this to Iris, but then I realized it was the even worse with Patty who actually carried a gun. She was kidnapped at least twice and was so helpless that Barry had to save her every time. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by SimoneS

[Brinny]

I don't personally think Iris and Joe's relationship suffers at the hand of Barry and Joe's, though. (Now, Wally and Joe's relationship, yes, totally.) What I do find puzzling, however, is why the writers/showrunners/people who make the important decisions don't take the time to showcase how awesome their titular character's wife is. Like, he married her for a reason, right? Shouldn't you want to highlight that? 

Completely agree that the show goes back and forth on how badass they let Iris be. And I would say that her being one of the very few characters left without powers could be the reason why she's maligned so much, but Joe doesn't have powers either and he doesn't get damselled as often as Iris does, so it's entirely probable that it's a gender thing. 

Also the less said about how Iris needed to be treated like some delicate flower (no pun intended) in the first season and kept away from Barry's secret, the better. That was NOT a good look. (Although, I'd never been more endeared towards Eddie than when Joe insisted Iris couldn't know and he answered that it was debatable and that they'd have that debate. Which  ...now that I think about it, actually still sounds like the men in her life making decisions for her. Oh, boy. Do any women write for this show?!*)

Speaking of badass Iris, this will forever be one of my favourite Iris moments. (I feel like I remember her line was actually added by Kevin Smith? If that's true, a couple of things: 1) Why aren't the actual writers giving Iris lines like this? and 2) Kevin Smith's treatment of female characters from his own catalogue of work can be ...sketchy, at best, so there's always growth to be had.)

*rhetorical, I know that there's some female writers on staff and, also, that misogynistic writing isn't limited to the male gender

Edited February 28, 2019 by Brinny
one day, there'll be no typos, you'll see!!!

[BeautifulFlower]

7 minutes ago, Brinny said:

I don't personally think Iris and Joe's relationship suffers at the hand of Barry and Joe's, though. (Now, Wally and Joe's relationship, yes, totally.) What I do find puzzling, however, is why the writers/showrunners/people who make the important decisions don't take the time to showcase how awesome their titular character's wife is. Like, he married her for a reason, right? Shouldn't you want to highlight that? 

Completely agree that the show goes back and forth on how badass they let Iris be. And I would say that her being one of the very few characters left without powers could be the reason why she's maligned so much, but Joe doesn't have powers either and he doesn't get damselled as often as Iris does, so it's entirely probable that it's a gender thing. 

Also the less said about how Iris needed to be treated like some delicate flower (no pun intended) in the first season and kept away from Barry's secret, the better. That was NOT a good look. (Although, I'd never been more endeared towards Eddie than when Joe insisted Iris couldn't know and he answered that it was debatable and that they'd have that debate. Which  ...now that I think about it, actually still sounds like the men in her life making decisions for her. Oh, boy. Do any women write for this show?!*)

Actually Joe is more of a damsel than Iris. Both Joe and Caitlin are the most damseled characters on the show. Iris is the least. The only time she was damsel in distress was season 3. That's mainly because they actually just waiting around to be killed. All the other times, Iris gets herself out rather than just sit and wait.

Yes, and they're all white. No black women write for Iris or this show at all either.People are campaigning for it, but no. Surprisingly, I find that a few of the male writers are the one writing badass moments for Iris.

All the Iris fans favorite writer is Zack Stenz. He's basically the only one to give her agency in his episodes. In season 3, as I mentioned before, Iris barely got any viewpoint on her impending death. Then 3x11 came, and we had Iris express how she felt over her impending death. Then after that, Iris was back to just waiting and putting other people's feelings over her own.

[Brinny]

3 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Actually Joe is more of a damsel than Iris. Both Joe and Caitlin are the most damseled characters on the show. Iris is the least. The only time she was damsel in distress was season 3. That's mainly because they actually just waiting around to be killed. All the other times, Iris gets herself out rather than just sit and wait.

Yes, and they're all white. No black women write for Iris or this show at all either.People are campaigning for it, but no. Surprisingly, I find that a few of the male writers are the one writing badass moments for Iris.

All the Iris fans favorite writer is Zack Stenz. He's basically the only one to give her agency in his episodes. In season 3, as I mentioned before, Iris barely got any viewpoint on her impending death. Then 3x11 came, and we had Iris express how she felt over her impending death. Then after that, Iris was back to just waiting and putting other people's feelings over her own.

You could be 100% right that Joe has been rescued more than Iris has (and I'll definitely concede that Caitlin seems utterly helpless most times, though that's changed a bit with Killer Frost), but I guess having an entire season devoted to how they were going to have to save Iris from Savitar might have skewed my perspective. 

(I actually did enjoy season three, but no show is without its criticisms.)

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

All the Iris fans favorite writer is Zack Stenz. He's basically the only one to give her agency in his episodes. In season 3, as I mentioned before, Iris barely got any viewpoint on her impending death. Then 3x11 came, and we had Iris express how she felt over her impending death. Then after that, Iris was back to just waiting and putting other people's feelings over her own.

This is exactly why as much as I disliked DeVoe as the big bad, I enjoyed elements of season four. I thought it was the first time that Iris got to express her feelings early on and throughout the season. She got to tell Barry that she was angry that he left without talking to her and that he didn't consult her about Team Flash decisions. 

I feel the same way about season 5. Even thought is all about Barry and Nora's drama, for once Barry is being the supportive one, listening to Iris' feelings and believing in her. 

[CabotCove]

Quote

I don't agree with this. Geoff Johns isn't directly involved in the show's production. 

Agree, I definately think, he is no longer actively involved with the show. It seems he had been busy with DCEU movies, and whatever else with DC Comics. 

I really think the show would be much better in quality, if he was still actively involved with The Flash. 

[SimoneS]

10 hours ago, WonderArtist said:

I really think the show would be much better in quality, if he was still actively involved with The Flash. 

Maybe, maybe not. A lot of the comic storytelling has been problematic e.g., keeping Iris in the dark about Barry being the Flash. And Johns wrote The Flash; Rebirth in which Iris barely exists. 

[RedVitC]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

Maybe, maybe not. A lot of the comic storytelling has been problematic e.g., keeping Iris in the dark about Barry being the Flash. And Johns wrote The Flash; Rebirth in which Iris barely exists. 

Wait, are we talking about Johns Rebirth where Barry comes back from the speedforce? Iris may not have a big, active part, but she was pretty present if I remember. They even flashed back to when Barry and Iris met and  if I understand correctly it's the comic that established Iris as Barry's lightning rod (don't quote me on that, but from what I understand, before rebirth lightning rod was more of a Wally thing, while rebirth made it a speedster thing, but I could be entirely wrong here it's not something I looked into I just saw a comment someone made once) It is the comic that gave us as long as I remember Iris i'll be all right, too

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, RedVitC said:

Wait, are we talking about Johns Rebirth where Barry comes back from the speedforce? Iris may not have a big, active part, but she was pretty present if I remember. They even flashed back to when Barry and Iris met and  if I understand correctly it's the comic that established Iris as Barry's lightning rod (don't quote me on that, but from what I understand, before rebirth lightning rod was more of a Wally thing, while rebirth made it a speedster thing, but I could be entirely wrong here it's not something I looked into I just saw a comment someone made once) It is the comic that gave us as long as I remember Iris i'll be all right, too

I am talking about that Rebirth. Barry spends most of that story with the Justice League and the other Flashes. Iris barely exists in person in Rebirth. She isn't exactly Barry's lightning rod in that story although she is important as his motivation. If Rebirth was an episode(s) on The Flash tv show, people would be outraged about how Iris was written.

[RedVitC]

54 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

am talking about that Rebirth. Barry spends most of that story with the Justice League and the other Flashes. Iris barely exists in person in Rebirth. She isn't exactly Barry's lightning rod in that story although she is important as his motivation. If Rebirth was an episode(s) on The Flash tv show, people would be outraged about how Iris was written.

I don’t know that I would personally be angry, but I can see your point. Her role was definitely more as that of Barry’s emotional center in the comic rather than an active participant than we’d want to seeing the show.

By comic standards, I was pleasantly surprised by how present Iris (present or past version) was and how she was treated as actually important to Barry. Iris’ role is much better than a lot of the early stories from Barry's run where she’s basically only there so the writers can make their, lol the irony of Iris not knowing the man she’s dating is the Flash jokes or to be an obstacle because she doesn't know he's the Flash.

The later stuff from Barry's run and beyond is better with really nice things, but for me it’s not until the newer comics, Rebirth being one, that I felt Barry and Iris as a couple were as romantic as Wally and Linda; where I felt Iris’ importance to Barry felt real on an emotional level. I think it's also one of the first times we saw their meet cute  (clarifying: I’ve not read their stories in order and there is still a lot I haven’t read and I’ve barely read any Wally and Linda, so maybe it’s better to say it’s one of the stories I read where I felt they were as romantic and their relationship felt integral to the story being told) Obviously, this is still mostly through the Barry lens (but I liked seeing some of Iris' personality in the flashbacks) so I sort of see what you're saying. 

I guess I’m trying to say I liked the Iris content in Rebirth, but I say agree to disagree!

[Trini]

Happy Birthday Candice!

[Trini]

Not new, but the Saturn Awards put out the video of Candice Patton's acceptance speech for her win in 2017:

[Trini]

Loved seeing Boss Lady Iris this week! They really went to town decorating that set:

I hope they can expand it maybe later this season. The one room is a little limited if Iris is supposed to be building her media empire.

[SevenStars]

Unlike past seasons, Candice seems to be posting/promoting the show and Westallen more than usually. I think she might finally be truly happy there and the direction the show is taking. I'm glad. 

[BeautifulFlower]

11 hours ago, SevenStars said:

Unlike past seasons, Candice seems to be posting/promoting the show and Westallen more than usually. I think she might finally be truly happy there and the direction the show is taking. I'm glad. 

This is what happens when you have a showrunner who CARES now.

[adora721]

I saw this and it reminded me of Candice's many complaints about the hairstylist issue on the Flash:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/black-hair-hollywood-many-bad-222032221.html

Edited October 27, 2019 by adora721

[SevenStars]

I'm trying to give Eric the benefit of the doubt when it comes to Iris simply because Candice seems happy with the direction of the show and she knows more than I do what is coming up in future episodes. But I'm pulling back on any hope I had for this season in regard to Iris. 

[phoenics]

6 hours ago, SevenStars said:

I'm trying to give Eric the benefit of the doubt when it comes to Iris simply because Candice seems happy with the direction of the show and she knows more than I do what is coming up in future episodes. But I'm pulling back on any hope I had for this season in regard to Iris. 

Me too.

In all honesty we might get some decent stuff in Season 6B, but it's not going to be what I was hoping for.  It actually feels like they are pushing deeper into Iris being on the fringes with the core Team Flash dynamic stronger than ever.  Episode 2 felt so much like S1 and then Eps 3-4 just went off the rails completely.

I cannot forgive the direction lately in scenes with KF, Barry and Iris, with Iris cut out of most of the scenes and camera angles pushed up on Barry and KF as though they are having scenes alone (even though we got a ton of alone scenes with them anyway, unlike solo Westallen scenes).  It feels like they're giving us Westallen but only on paper - as both Iris and Barry mostly interact with other people.

What's happening right now is disgusting and gross and I hate it.

[Trini]

Imagine underutilizing a castmember this cute, talented, and drama-free; tragic.

I knew 6.05 was going to be Cisco-heavy, and light on everyone else, but I did really like the two scenes Iris was in. And Candice looked great - let her have curly hair more often, thanks!

[Featherhat]

Her hair is so gorgeous there and I don't see how anyone could think it was a look she shouldn't be rocking it all the time. Her usual "Iris hair" isn't going to make anyone like her more if the reason they don't like her much is because she's black. 

I so want a Barry and Iris investigate metas on vacation storyline, but this vacation was just to get them out of the way for Cisco's centric. 

[Trini]

Looking at photos of Candice at Vulture Festival reminds me again how unimaginative the hairstylists are with Iris. Even if they don't know how to do natural/black hairstyles, they can't do a simple updo more often? Makes no sense.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Trini

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, RedVitC said:

That's a no from me to erasing Cecile or Baby Jenna. Jenna is just living her off screen life in peace.

Despite my issues I’ll take this season (so far anyway) over 2A. Plus, after the 5th episode of this season Iris had already had more screentime than she had in the entirety of the 9 pre-winterbreak episodes of season 2 (what I consider 2a). 

Now that's something I REALLY don't get. We all know how awful 2a treated Iris. She got no POV on her own mother. She was barely there for an episode. Her friendship with Barry was nonexistent. Her screentime was 5 min or less in each episode. They deleted her scenes. For crying out loud, Iris appeared for 5 seconds in the crossover while a recurring character got more screentime than she did. 2A disgusts me.

Anyway, Iris having 5 min or less screentime 3 episodes in a row does not mean 6A is treating her worse 2A. I wish Iris had more journalism focus this season, but at least we're seeing something compared to 2A. 

[phoenics]

5 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Now that's something I REALLY don't get. We all know how awful 2a treated Iris. She got no POV on her own mother. She was barely there for an episode. Her friendship with Barry was nonexistent. Her screentime was 5 min or less in each episode. They deleted her scenes. For crying out loud, Iris appeared for 5 seconds in the crossover while a recurring character got more screentime than she did. 2A disgusts me.

Anyway, Iris having 5 min or less screentime 3 episodes in a row does not mean 6A is treating her worse 2A. I wish Iris had more journalism focus this season, but at least we're seeing something compared to 2A. 

But we aren't getting Iris' pov on losing the love of her life.  That's as bad to me as not really seeing her PoV about her mom dying, coming back from the dead - any of it.

The fact that we're using Season 2A as any kind of barometer here and actually happy that "well, it's not as bad as 2A (which I still don't agree with)" is beyond the pale and shows how far we've fallen.

Season 3B looks like Oscar worthy material compared to this.

Let's just face it.  The show has caved in to the OTF fans and the racist fans who just want Iris erased.  And many of those fans are the same group of people.

Edited November 27, 2019 by phoenics

[Starry]

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

WestAllen and the West Family Feels in general are worse off than they were this time last year, I think EW does carry responsibility for that. It's not like it was brilliant but Iris was allowed to have agency and emotions in the Nora arc. This is Savitar and post Eddie arc levels of not having a POV on Barry's death and therefore the death of their future together.

Iris got more during the Savitar arc. No agency whatsoever but she was allowed to break down and also trust that Barry would save her. The martyr act bothered me and was indicative of her lack of agency but she had a much more fleshed out POV and a centric episode where she worries about her own legacy. In season 3 Iris was allowed to be vulnerable and to be Barry's number one priority. That wasn't a perfect arc at all and had its own problem but when even a disgusting professional shipbaiter like Kreisberg can do more for Iris and WestAllen then there's something very bad going on.

The post Eddie era was the worst. No POV on anything and minimal screen time. The fact that haters are likening 6A to 2A and talking about how much Iris has improved is a blood red flag.

My problem with this season is that if I view the episodes as their own entities most of them aren't that bad. Many of the season 5 and 4B episodes bored me to tears but I don't feel the same about 6A. The Cisco episode was good. As a standalone episode. The Frost episode was a massive improvement over her seasons 4 and 5 centric episodes. The premiere, 6x02 and 6x07 were good. All of those are decent episodes when I look at them without worrying about Crisis as a multi-episodes arc or the lack of Iris in general. But those things are actually important and since the showrunner has botched both the Crisis build-up and Iris as a character ( and I actually look at those two things as connected ) then he's failed 6A. Focusing so much on the team has ruined the momentum they built in the first two episodes. It's also funny that the minute a Wells version can actually add something more as he's a link to the Monitor and Crisis they give him minimal screen time. What happened to knowing a way to save Barry? Whatever. Let's drop it for another team centric episode. This time it's Ralph's turn to team up with Barry 🙄

But back to Iris, I should have thrown in the towel the moment they had her say "let's make every moment count" and Barry replied with "let's start with preparing the team for Crisis". What a giant turn-off.

Even in the season premiere there were things that I should have taken as hints. Especially knowing what I know now. Barry happily said two times "we are Team Flash" about him, Cisco and Caitlin. It sounds innocent enough in the context of that episode and Barry being in denial and suppressing his feelings about Nora's death but when I look at 6A as a whole that line seems shady. As was having him save Caitlin from the black hole but his human wife always has to save herself because she's a Strong Black Woman both physically and emotionally 🙄 It's no surprise that Iris got no credit in 6x08 for being the one who gave Barry the strength to resist Ramsey's mind control but they had him agree with Iris' intern that Frost is a badass.

This sounds ranty but I have a lot of feelings about it. I hope Guggenheim and the Batwoman writers do better by Iris and WestAllen during Crisis. I am that desperate.

[adora721]

The only thing that gives me hope is that Candice is, or seems, very happy about season 6; there must be a reason beyond just more money and showing her natural hair for a couple of minutes. 

[Starry]

CP doesn't watch the episodes and actors are never aware of what gets cut. She also doesn't strike me as someone who ponders over things. Definitely not to the extent that fans do.

She may know that bigger and better things are in store for Iris or she just has fun shooting and knows that she can talk to EW if she has a request about things like hair and make-up, wardrobe, proper lighting. It's also possible that she's happy that Iris has an office and a staff and that she has to film less group scenes. I think many actors have said that shooting group scenes is stressful and takes a lot of time.

But CP has agreed with someone about needing more Barry, Iris and Joe as they are the heart of the show. I don't know how happy she is that scenes with those characters are still lacking.

[phoenics]

If I were CP I'd be angry that I have to bend over backwards to get even close to what I was due as female lead of the show while a certain castmember ALWAYS gets a story arc no matter what.  And I'm not talking about Barry.

It may not be a GOOD story arc - but the writers never fail to try to shove that particular castmember down our throats as much as possible.

I'm SO bitter and exhausted right now.

[BeautifulFlower]

7 hours ago, Starry said:

CP doesn't watch the episodes and actors are never aware of what gets cut. She also doesn't strike me as someone who ponders over things. Definitely not to the extent that fans do.

She may know that bigger and better things are in store for Iris or she just has fun shooting and knows that she can talk to EW if she has a request about things like hair and make-up, wardrobe, proper lighting. It's also possible that she's happy that Iris has an office and a staff and that she has to film less group scenes. I think many actors have said that shooting group scenes is stressful and takes a lot of time.

But CP has agreed with someone about needing more Barry, Iris and Joe as they are the heart of the show. I don't know how happy she is that scenes with those characters are still lacking.

She's probably not happy about Joe and Iris scenes being cut. However, she might be fine with it. 

CP was really excited at comic con and is promoting episodes again. She said many times that she wants a producer who has her back. She wants Iris to be more than just a love interest. I know we all don't like how Iris was treated this half, but Candice seems to have gotten what she wants. 

Talking about this just makes me even more sad when thinking about how the previous showrunners treated her. Also, I wonder if Candice would ask Eric to lessen Iris crying. Considering that bts video and a possible past comment, I think she's tired of Iris being written to cry all the time.

[phoenics]

So the answer is to make Iris into an SBW in the face of her husband dying?  CP needs to watch the episodes to see how badly this is coming off.

And sorry - but Crisis isn't the time for Iris to cry less.  This storyline demanded it.

This is just bad showrunning and writing.

[Starry]

5 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

CP was really excited at comic con and is promoting episodes again. She said many times that she wants a producer who has her back. She wants Iris to be more than just a love interest. I know we all don't like how Iris was treated this half, but Candice seems to have gotten what she wants.

Iris being more than a love interest shouldn't equal less WestAllen. Keeping Iris out of STAR Labs and giving her less romance when those scenes aren't replaced with something of substance is not an improvement.

Iris is the female lead. She's owed the agency, the personal storyline and the romance. I bet Lois being "more than a love interest" won't translate into less Clois and throwaway journalism scenes. When Lois was this hard-hitting reporter on Smallville you would still get Clois romance scenes in every episode. I have watched one episode of Arrow in season 7 and they had Felicity be kickass and have domestic scenes with Oliver. But Iris is black and for these writers and producers black women can apparently be only one thing at a time. Except in season 6 there isn't enough romance and Allegra has already investigated on screen more than Iris has. Lose-lose.

Again, CP allegedly getting what she wants doesn't mean that she thinks the writing for Iris has improved. EW not dismissing her genuine complaints about things like more diversity BTS and make-up artists and hairdressers who can do black women hair and make-up doesn't mean better writing. EW can be a good listener and a bad showrunner.

If CP doesn't watch the show, is not aware of what gets deleted and films episodes without getting caught up in the details or looking at the bigger picture she won't realize how bad this is coming off. The Joe and Iris scene is the second time this season CP has promoted a scene that ended up being cut. She promoted the WestAllen one from 6x02 as well. Like I said upthread, if you look at the episodes as their own entities season 6 is actually better than seasons 4 and 5. The bigger picture is the problem which is something that CP will miss if she doesn't watch the show.

But even with CP promoting the show more often it wasn't lost on me that she didn't say a peep about 6x04 and 6x06 and the only thing she said about 6x08 is that she's always up for more Cisco. Those were the worst Iris episodes the season has had. As for her excitement at SDCC, by that time the actors had read three scripts tops. The first two episodes were very good and the third had enjoyable moments despite it being focused on Frost.

[Trini]

On 12/6/2019 at 6:22 AM, Starry said:

As was having him save Caitlin from the black hole but his human wife always has to save herself because she's a Strong Black Woman both physically and emotionally 🙄 It's no surprise that Iris got no credit in 6x08 for being the one who gave Barry the strength to resist Ramsey's mind control but they had him agree with Iris' intern that Frost is a badass.

I'm glad they avoid damsel tropes with Iris. Barry saving Caitlin (which he hasn't done in ages) was just to start off her 'KF takes over' C-plot. Whatever - I try not to pay attention to her. Otherwise, I agree with you that Iris' plots have been a letdown in this first half. Although, I was only really disappointed with 4 out of the 8.

Things seem to be set up for the second half; where Wallace doesn't have to write towards a crossover he didn't plan.

Quote

This sounds ranty but I have a lot of feelings about it. I hope Guggenheim and the Batwoman writers do better by Iris and WestAllen during Crisis. I am that desperate.

The same Guggenheim that hasn't uttered Iris or Candice's name once in any of his many crossover interviews, and ignored her at every turn? Wallace as showrunner still has a say in the crossover, and it's all Flash writers credited for the Flash episode, where most if the WestAllen content will be.

[adora721]

My only concern about a Black female writer is that some, not all, Black women are not happy when Black women date or marry White men. Some see it as a betrayal of Black men - being disloyal. I just hope they get someone who puts any personal bias aside or who supports IR couples no matter the makeup of that couple.

Edited December 8, 2019 by adora721

[Starry]

7 hours ago, Trini said:

I'm glad they avoid damsel tropes with Iris. Barry saving Caitlin (which he hasn't done in ages) was just to start off her 'KF takes over' C-plot. Whatever - I try not to pay attention to her.

I don't want Iris to be damseled all the time but in the last couple of years she has saved Barry more often than he her. I just would like some balance.

As for Caitlin, she's damseled and rendered helpless too often for someone who has a powerful alter ego. But otherwise I agree with you. It was just a nitpick that is IMO a part of a larger problem. It made sense in the context of the episode.