S06.E10: START

[Domestic Assassin]

21 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

Back when William was alive, did he ever mention anything about why he didn't have a partner?  I remember Elizabeth telling Tuan to contact the Centre and demand that they find a partner for him and it made me wonder why poor William was all by himself.

He did have a partner who had been sent home.  I don't recall why, but I think part of it was they didn't get along.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

Back when William was alive, did he ever mention anything about why he didn't have a partner?  I remember Elizabeth telling Tuan to contact the Centre and demand that they find a partner for him and it made me wonder why poor William was all by himself.

I think all Gabriel said was that William and his wife didn't work out--he seemed to regret not fighting for her to stay, maybe. We just know she was sent home.

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I re-read The New Yorker review on the finale- specifically the garage scene- and this sentence really resonated: It’s an act of domination camouflaged as an act of submission. Yep. About sums it up. Sure- Philip was honest about a lot of things when talking to Stan, but his goal was to drive away. 

That's such a perfect move for Philip too. It made me think about Stan's speech about "soft mouth." It's not exactly, but it's another related method. Philip Jennings: Reverse Werewolf.

[Umbelina]

William talks about his "wife" when he's dying too.  He says "we were fighting" I think, and in other conversations I got the idea that they were young, they fought at times, and the KGB took her back home because of that.  I just always felt like they fought over stupid stuff, as young people will do, and he really regretted that, because it left him all alone.

Also, they may not have been attracted to each other.  Now if she'd just had a 15+ year affair like Elizabeth did, and just treated her "husband" like a partner instead of acting like it was supposed to be a real marriage?  Maybe William and his KGB partner would have eventually worked it out, like Philip and Elizabeth.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Umbelina

[limecoke]

Quote

Sure- Philip was honest about a lot of things when talking to Stan, but his goal was to drive away. 

The scene in the garage was powerful but for me, it was obvious that Philip pulled out all the stops on his KGB training.  His speech to Stan was 40% truth and 60% BS.  It was obvious from the look on Eizabeth's face.  It was all about driving away and Stan fell for it hook, line and you know the rest.  Philip turned him from his angry, curse-laden rage to a best friend doing the "right thing."  Stan let himself get played.  And while Philip planted the seed of doubt about Renee, if she is KGB, he'll be played by her too.  We'll never know, will we?

Since we know the rest of the story post fall of the Soviet Union, we know that in the real world, Paige and Henry will see their parents again - if they want to.  However, Paige will probably be dead or in the slammer and Henry just won't care.  

In the end, I really only cared about Oleg and he got royally screwed.  

Great show, great acting.  I loved it.

edited to fix it.

Edited August 23, 2018 by limecoke

[Umbelina]

14 hours ago, limecoke said:

I can write my own ending

We have a thread where some of us did that.  The Americans Part Two

[Umbelina]

On 5/30/2018 at 8:33 PM, Moose135 said:

Well, that sucked...

It was a good episode, but I agree, it sucked as a season finale.

On 5/30/2018 at 8:33 PM, Shriekingeel said:

Hated it.  

I didn't hate it, but I'm very unhappy with the "no ending ending" with everyone on screen left in peril deliberately and the writers bailing on any answers, since logical, answering what comes next for anyone we cared about on screen is beyond horrible.

On 5/30/2018 at 8:33 PM, jjj said:

Oleg, no, left in a cell..... He deserved better.

I simply cannot believe, "after all this time," Stan, that you let them go.

Well, it was an ending -- but so many questions remain.

 

It was such an amazing scene in the garage and Noah sold it, outstanding job of that, EXCEPT they had just killed several FBI agents, and no, I don't think Stan would "let that go."

On 5/30/2018 at 8:33 PM, taurusrose said:

That was crap.

Well acted crap, but as a finale?  yeah...

On 5/30/2018 at 8:33 PM, Pickles said:

Will Paige have a normal life? Can she have a relationship with Henry? 

No, and who knows? Maybe he'll visit her in prison, if his foster family will let him.  (Stan isn't going to be able to take care of himself, let alone Henry, get real, his marriage and career are over.)

On 5/30/2018 at 8:34 PM, Natalie25 said:

It feels unresolved. I would've preferred less time on the escape and more time on fallout/reactions from others. Maybe a montage of their life in Russia.

Or, any actual ending, instead of "everyone's in danger, bye!"

On 5/30/2018 at 8:34 PM, jjj said:

Well, and Arkady is expecting to be picked up himself -- I thought it might end with that.  

Yes, an important scene, Arkady knows he's in danger for bucking the Coup, and warned Oleg's daddy he is too, since he took the coded messages.  It's a take no prisoners finale, everyone faces a bleak future.

On 5/30/2018 at 8:35 PM, crgirl412 said:

Is Arkady going to protect them? 

He can't even protect himself, or at least that's what he SAID on screen to Oleg's dad.

On 5/30/2018 at 8:36 PM, Erin9 said:

Of course. And they can give him everything about the coup. 

No.  Arkady just betrayed his boss, and also said that Gorbachev isn't strong enough to buck the Coup people.  He'll be lucky to stay out of Lubyanka or shot himself.

On 5/30/2018 at 8:36 PM, Marianna said:

Well, also, the implication is P and E live happily ever after in Russia.  But aren’t they in the same danger as Arkady?  Why not just flee to ... well, anywhere else on earth?

Yes, all of our characters are in danger.  That's why, for many anyway, though beautifully done and very well acted?  This finale is seriously unsatisfying.

On 5/30/2018 at 8:37 PM, SailorGirl said:

The garage scene was the best of the entire episode.

I wanted some Stan resolution . . . does he just live with knowing he betrayed his country? Does he just not give a fuck anymore? Does he live in turmoil the rest of his life? WTH STAN???

I agree.

Stan may just eat a bullet.  He's done at the FBI and that marriage is over, no matter what.  He betrayed his country and his fellow (dead) FBI officers. 

On 5/30/2018 at 8:38 PM, kay1864 said:

ITA.  Although I imagine there's not much they can charge Paige with.  Not even "harboring a pair of spies".

Accessory to a couple of murders, espionage.

On 5/30/2018 at 8:38 PM, Bannon said:

Yes, if she gets incredibly lucky, and A. Stan never gets caught or talks and B. The FBI never finds any of the cars Paige was in, on operations, or Claudia's apartment, and Paige never left any hair or fingerprints in them. Why not? The show went Full Stupid at the end.

It went full-cop-out to me.  They wanted their preplanned from season 1 ending, in spite of logic.  They couldn't resolve it, because they set up the peril for everyone, and there was no good way out.  They didn't even resolve Renee, and they think that's cute or edgy. 

On 5/30/2018 at 8:39 PM, KBrownie said:

That's the most ridiculous part of this entire thing for me.  Why is Stan made to look like a complete and utter fool and end of betraying his country for two people who get off totally scot-free for all the horrific things they did in the name of theirs?   Awful.  If they were really worth it, they would have never left him to do it.  He obviously wasn't worth it to them.  They sure weren't willing to sacrifice shit for him, but he becomes a turncoat.  All for some true love conquers all bullshit.  

Noah sold it, but damn, I do agree with you. 

On 5/30/2018 at 8:42 PM, crgirl412 said:

A nice epilogue would've been totally awesome!!  I think we deserve it especially after the waste of the second to last season and having to cram the ending.  

 

As I said above, they didn't want to, they couldn't, because any LOGICAL resolution would have everyone miserable, and they wanted their viewers to fan wank this thing into something hopeful.  Which?  Has happened.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

On 5/30/2018 at 8:51 PM, CaliCheeseSucks said:

As has been established ad nauseum this season: Paige is not a smart girl - she'll squawk the second they start asking her questions, especially if she thinks it will help her parents, wherever they are. She has absolutely no one to live off of - she's going to have to cough up information for any kind of assistance in not ending up on the street.

Exactly.  There is no way in hell the FBI won't question her endlessly, and there is no way in hell she won't slip up and implicate herself.  She's an idiot, and contrary to the way the show depicted the nearly keystone cops FBI?  They are good at this shit.

On 5/30/2018 at 8:51 PM, kay1864 said:

True...but I doubt there's a single thing they can prove. To them, she knew and just kept quiet about it to protect her parents. If she keeps her mouth shut, there are no witnesses, and they have no proof that she was involved. 

As above, and as @Bannon says, DNA and other things an intensive FBI investigation will uncover.  Not a realistic chance in hell she won't implicate herself.  "I just drove the car and was a lookout, I didn't know mom murdered all those people!"  She's so stupid, she won't even realize she's admitted to both espionage and accessory to murder charges.  Hell, she doesn't even know those ops involved murders!  Babe in the woods, thanks mom!

On 5/30/2018 at 9:01 PM, Ina123 said:

Disappointed. Stan let Russian spies and murderers go. Sucks.Stan didn't even redeem himself. He truly is the idiot they have portrayed him as all along.

Sadly, this is true.  Noah was so amazing in that scene, and I did love it, but the idea that any FBI officer would ignore the murder of FBI agents less than a week ago, or of his two agents?  Please...I always argued that Stan was a good agent, and not stupid, but that one?  Yeah.  He wasn't and he is, also disloyal to his fellow officers and his country.  Poor Noah having to play such an, in the end?  Sap.

On 5/30/2018 at 9:06 PM, Bannon said:

Paige was in KGB cars on several operations. The FBI has a painstaking way of tracking those cars down. They are going to be found, Paiges hair has to be in them, and 1987 was when convictions started to be obtained via DNA matches. They'll match her DNA to hair in her bedroom at home, or her dorm room at college, of course. There isn't a chance she's not getting convicted, and Liz and Phil were morons for not realizing that she's about as likely to hold up under questioning by the FBI as she is to win a Pulitzer for her brilliant history of WWII.

The FBI will be on this case for years, and Paige will be questioned for years, not a chance she won't fuck up, especially since mommy lied to her about most of it, so she doesn't even know she has to cover any bases.  She's done.

On 5/30/2018 at 9:08 PM, Marianna said:

They can’t travel to America - they will always be wanted there  

Yes, contrary to the real spies that were caught, Philip and Elizabeth murdered a ton of people.  The real embedded spies?  Killed no one.

On 5/30/2018 at 9:13 PM, chocolatine said:

They could meet in another country. I just think that Henry is completely done with his parents, and Paige will be in prison if Aderholt gets to her before Stan does. Paige isn't the brightest bulb and Aderholt will make her sing like a canary. Who knows, she may even let slip that Stan let P&E escape, in which case Stan will also go to prison. 

She'll face far more than Aderholt, and it's laughable to think she won't fuck up about Stan letting them go too.  Stan, will realize that, of course, and will either turn himself in, or kill himself, leaving an apology letter, and a warning about his probably KGB wife.

On 5/30/2018 at 9:14 PM, RedHawk said:

Sandra is so going to freak out when Stan calls her about this.

LOL!  Now I'm cheering up thinking of Sandra reading it in the newspaper and talking it over with her son!  Stan?  Has bigger problems than telling Sandra.

On 5/30/2018 at 9:28 PM, jjj said:

Hey, the Chekhov cyanide pill was never deployed, just buried in earth.  

These writers think it's cute to buck things, I never thought it would be used, much like Martha's gun.  They think they are "edgy."

On 5/30/2018 at 9:30 PM, KBrownie said:

These two statements contradict each other.  Friends don't do what Phillip did to Stan.  They do what Stan did.  All for two people who don't give a shit about what happens to him in the aftermath.  As long as they got they wanted.  Selfish assholes till the bitter end.  I don't care that they felt some emotion at leaving the kids behind.  They should have never put them in that position, to begin with, but Mother Russia comes first, last, always.  Everyone else will be left holding the bag for them.  Paige and Stan betray their country for two people who, in the end, only saw them as a means to an end.  Henry left with knowing that his entire existence was a lie without anyone to turn to.  All the countless innocent people killed who will never have justice.  But hey! Phillip and Elizabeth will "get used to" their new lives in Russia.  Just peachy.

Also, disliking the finale for some very valid reasons does not make one a "hater."  

Well said!

On 5/30/2018 at 9:38 PM, Ellaria Sand said:

This statement says it all. Their children were the ones that delivered their punishment. I always thought that these characters would end up in a hell of their own making and they did.

I'm sure the families of all the people Philip and Elizabeth murdered would be quite satisfied that they had to leave without their kids.

Oh...wait...

On 5/30/2018 at 9:45 PM, KBrownie said:

He has no reason to trust or believe anything coming from her.  She lied to him too.  She chose not to tell him and bring him into the fold when she found out about her parents.  And no, she didn't keep quiet to protect him.  She liked the attention knowing got her.  I don't buy her super sudden interest in Henry.  There was absolutely no build up, and there was the opportunity to do so, to any sort of meaningful bond or relationship between Paige and Henry.  And really, what does she have to tell him about their parents? She didn't know or understand them.  She only knew the lies they told her.  She knows nothing about who they are or what they did.  She'd just be repeating more lies to Henry and he's had enough people lying to him for a lifetime.  She's also in no position to do anything for him.  It was good to see that apparently, the school hadn't kicked him out after finding out his parents were spies.

I agree.  Paige has never even paid for her own apartment or had a job, even if we fan wank the hell out of this and say she escapes prison?  (ha!) She'll be lucky to room with 5 others somewhere and work at a fast food restaurant for minimum wage.  She'd be lucky to support herself.  Henry will be in foster care or a group home anyway.

On 5/30/2018 at 9:47 PM, Erin9 said:

Exactly. They’ll miss their kids terribly. That’s a huge price to pay. 

But- I think they’ll be okay at the same time. They are survivors and have each other. And their kids have each other. No one is alone. 

It's not enough of a price, not in ANY sense.  Look at bad-teeth-woman's traumatized young son, walking through the blood of his mother, seeing her throat slit, seeing his step daddy dead.  He will NEVER get over that.  All of the people they murdered have families.  Those FBI agents they murdered, have kids, sisters, brothers, parents, friends who will suffer those losses forever.  Ditto the sailor, the wheat guy, the guys in the warehouse, and on and on and on.

It's NOT enough, not for all their victims.  Although I fully expect Paige to be in prison and Philip and Elizabeth to be killed very soon, so maybe that will be enough, but the writers only implied that, didn't show it.

 

Rereading this thread...

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

On 5/31/2018 at 12:45 AM, KBrownie said:

He has no reason to trust or believe anything coming from her.  She lied to him too.  She chose not to tell him and bring him into the fold when she found out about her parents.  And no, she didn't keep quiet to protect him.  She liked the attention knowing got her.  I don't buy her super sudden interest in Henry.  There was absolutely no build up, and there was the opportunity to do so, to any sort of meaningful bond or relationship between Paige and Henry.  And really, what does she have to tell him about their parents? She didn't know or understand them.  She only knew the lies they told her.  She knows nothing about who they are or what they did.  She'd just be repeating more lies to Henry and he's had enough people lying to him for a lifetime.  She's also in no position to do anything for him.  It was good to see that apparently, the school hadn't kicked him out after finding out his parents were spies.

I agree.  Paige has never even paid for her own apartment or had a job, even if we fan wank the hell out of this and say she escapes prison?  (ha!) She'll be lucky to room with 5 others somewhere and work at a fast food restaurant for minimum wage.  She'd be lucky to support herself.  Henry will be in foster care or a group home anyway.

A funny thing about this for me is at first I thought that was the main thing Paige could provide for Henry was some context, since she knew her parents as spies for years. But when I think about it now I realize that in some ways it's even worse for him having Paige as a filter because she's got so little objectivity. He'd be hearing about Paige's versions of her parents which are mostly about her and her fights with her mom and disappointments with her dad and just never really much trying to understand them as the aliens they were. Henry, it seems, was the kid who was always positioned as better at that sort of thing.

I don't agree with posters who think Henry would just be done with his parents--from the impression I get of Henry over the years I think he'd be quite interested in them. (I've always thought Henry's feelings about his parents were more interested and complicated than the version where he's just judged them unworthy and prefered the superficial pleasantries of time with Stan as well.) But I feel like he might eventually see Paige as having little to offer him in terms of understanding. In fact--and this is is obviously totally subjective on my part--when I picture their relationship in future I don't see Paige taking care of Henry (I honestly don't think she ever was able to do that much anyway) but the opposite. Like if anything I see her seeing Henry as a new potential place to vent her own feelings--and later in life I can see him giving her more practical care as well.

[Umbelina]

43 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

A funny thing about this for me is at first I thought that was the main thing Paige could provide for Henry was some context, since she knew her parents as spies for years. But when I think about it now I realize that in some ways it's even worse for him having Paige as a filter because she's got so little objectivity. He'd be hearing about Paige's versions of her parents which are mostly about her and her fights with her mom and disappointments with her dad and just never really much trying to understand them as the aliens they were. Henry, it seems, was the kid who was always positioned as better at that sort of thing.

I don't agree with posters who think Henry would just be done with his parents--from the impression I get of Henry over the years I think he'd be quite interested in them. (I've always thought Henry's feelings about his parents were more interested and complicated than the version where he's just judged them unworthy and prefered the superficial pleasantries of time with Stan as well.) But I feel like he might eventually see Paige as having little to offer him in terms of understanding. In fact--and this is is obviously totally subjective on my part--when I picture their relationship in future I don't see Paige taking care of Henry (I honestly don't think she ever was able to do that much anyway) but the opposite. Like if anything I see her seeing Henry as a new potential place to vent her own feelings--and later in life I can see him giving her more practical care as well.

I think Paige's eyes will be opened during questioning, and of course, by media and people who now recognize Philip and Elizabeth from photos.

IF she's able to stay out of prison, which to me is doubtful?  I think she would be able to bond with Henry eventually, if for no other reason than she will know (via questioning and the ongoing revelations of the FBI investigation) that she was just as duped as Henry.

So, I think Henry would find it easier to forgive Paige for lying to him, since in reality, Paige never really got the truth either from their parents.  I also think that when she tells him that it was initially devastating for her as well, and wanted to protect him from that same kind of devastation?  He will believe her.  I see this all happening a few years down the road though, at least the forgiveness part.  For quite a while both kid's lives will be upside down and a fucking mess, and making nice with each other will be less of a priority than simply surviving their fates.

ETA

There is also the "foxhole" comparison.  No one will really know what it's like for them but each other, so some kind of bonding will happen no matter what.  They share that foxhole, and always will.

 

ETA again.

Also, now that the FBI has Liz and Philip's photos, just think of all the people that can, and some will, come forward and volunteer even more information about/against them.  The kid from the Senator's office might, the hotel guy, the wheat people, Kimmie, Young Hee, submarine guy, the FBI guy who was (laughably) guarding Stans's agents saw Elizabeth the night before she cut their throats, just all of them.  Whatever disguises they were wearing, a face is a face, and with a photo, it's logical to think that especially those they honeytrapped or conned will recognize them now that they know the rest of the story.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Umbelina
added foxhole stuff and the rest after

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

So, I think Henry would find it easier to forgive Paige for lying to him, since in reality, Paige never really got the truth either from their parents.  I also think that when she tells him that it was initially devastating for her as well, and wanted to protect him from that same kind of devastation?  He will believe her.  I see this all happening a few years down the road though, at least the forgiveness part.  For quite a while both kid's lives will be upside down and a fucking mess, and making nice with each other will be less of a priority than simply surviving their fates.

Oh, I agree about the forgiveness. I don't see Henry bearing a big grudge against Paige for not telling him the truth. I think he may even admit to himself that he didn't want the truth and that was part of the reason he wanted to go away from home when he got to the age that Paige was when she started noticing something wrong as well.

I didn't mean Henry would resent Paige or anything like that. I just meant that I don't think Paige would provide much insight into understanding her parents--her being duped about the nasty nature of their work being just part of it. It always comes back to what Paige needed/wanted to see/get from them rather than Paige having a real understanding of them on their own terms. That, to me, is part of the meaning of the fight she has with Elizabeth in Jennings, Elizabeth. On one hand it's a moment of Paige seeing the truth, calling Elizabeth out on her lies. But it's also showing that they're back to square one--that they never really left square one. No matter how many talks Paige had with Claudia and Elizabeth, when she claims to see the "true" Elizabeth she's a middle class suburban American woman who's stepped outside the lines of acceptable behavior of a respectable wife and mother.

It's similar to her reaction here in START, really, where her parents saying they're running away to the country Paige has allegedly pledged her allegiance to is too crazy for her to even really contemplate since she can barely get past them not paying Henry's college tuition. I've no doubt she could understand Henry's shock and disorientation at learning their real identities. I just don't think she'd be that helpful in explaining things from their pov at all. "They're big, fat liars" is an accurate description of them, but it's an outsider's pov. She might gain that understanding later in life, but given her personality I can also imagine her not gaining it, or at least not gaining that much. She was really, imo, never able to accept that to understand her parents she had to start from scratch and understand a totally different psychology and experience. When it seemed like she'd come to some acceptance it always turned out she'd really just found a way to tell herself they weren't that different.

Edited September 16, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

16 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That, to me, is part of the meaning of the fight she has with Elizabeth in Jennings, Elizabeth. On one hand it's a moment of Paige seeing the truth, calling Elizabeth out on her lies. But it's also showing that they're back to square one--that they never really left square one. No matter how many talks Paige had with Claudia and Elizabeth, when she claims to see the "true" Elizabeth she's a middle class suburban American woman who's stepped outside the lines of acceptable behavior of a respectable wife and mother.

Yes, I agree.  I also think that more and more will come out about her parents actions, murders, honey traps, not just logically from FBI questioning, but from other victims or witnesses coming forward to help their government put it all together.  I think there will be several of those, once the photographs and new disguise drawings are up (they can use actual full color faces now, and put on wigs, birthmarks, etc. to put on the news asking for anyone with information, after a certain point in the investigation that is.)  There will also be people "selling their story" because, after all, this is the USA.

In several ways, Paige WILL know about the murders, the sex, the stealing, and all the rest, and in addition to that, she will certainly be aware of the end of the Soviet Union.  Will she think that's enough punishment for Liz?  Maybe, but she'll probably either be in prison or trying to make a living and change her name and appearance to avoid paying for any more of her parents' issues/crimes/betrayals/lies.

17 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

She was really, imo, never able to accept that to understand her parents she had to start from scratch and understand a totally different psychology and experience.

Which, frankly is pretty weird.  I can't see any reason that the kids were not raised with more values, or more awareness that their parents came from poverty (even if they didn't let them know just how extreme that poverty was.)  Elizabeth made her mop the floor and clean out the fridge one time.  Why not more of that?  Why not insisting Henry get a paper route if he wants a video game, or earn an allowance to save for "extras" by doing chores, washing the cars each week, dishes two days a week, vacuuming the living room on Tuesday afternoons?  Ditto Paige, where did she even get the money to buy her own red bra at the mall at 13 years old?

It's hard for me to imagine that those two parents would be so lax about responsibility, or even about learning the value of money.  That's not "Russian" or even more Soviet than many families in the USA.  It wouldn't have blown their cover at all.  They could instill values that mattered to them without saying "because that's they way we do it in the USSR!"  It's the same thing about history, why does Elizabeth say she had to bite her tongue looking at Paige's history book talk about WWII?  Rent a fucking movie about Russia's contribution, or give her a better and more balanced view of it by simply showing her some things from a better book?

They didn't have to raise typical American kids, because honestly there was no such thing, we come in all shapes and sizes, and if both kids were "so bright" then certainly introduce not only more of your own values, but also more information.

[moonshine71]

On 5/31/2018 at 7:32 AM, rehoboth said:

 

I see Paige as going to Stan for help in setting up her new life (like selling their old house) and for him to extract information from her like where the safe house was and how P and E were "handled".  I also hope that Stan sets Paige straight on how P and E actually operated.

Yeah, that house is not going to belong to Paige or Henry. The house, cars, any money in the bank, everything will be seized by the FBI. 

[moonshine71]

I haven't read through all the pages of responses to this episode, so I don't know if this had been shared yet, but these two were the inspiration for Paige and Henry. 

There's definitely some different circumstances(different era, their parents did nothing comparable to the crimes of Philip and Elizabeth, the Jennings escaped as opposed to being arrested and traded, Canadian citizenship laws are not the same as U.S., etc.), but I think it's clear that neither Henry nor certainly Paige can just move ahead with any type of normal life in the U.S. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/07/discovered-our-parents-were-russian-spies-tim-alex-foley

Edited September 16, 2018 by moonshine71

[Miles]

Finally saw this after Uni got in the way and then I forgot about the last two episodes. It was good, I think.

Was I the only one who suspected Philip and Elisabeth to get a bullet in the back of their heads when they were looking over Moscow? Not quite sure if I would have prefered that at this point. They certainly had it coming and it would have put a nicer bow on the whole thing.

 

On 31.5.2018 at 5:45 AM, skippylou said:

Stan is the only person who knows that Paige knew for years.  

That was my first thought too, but Pastor Tim also knows and the FBI will probably lean on him quite heavily. The best Paige can do is probably tell them that she knew and was very conflicted about it, but just couldn't rat on her parents. But that ofcourse she never participated.

 

On 31.5.2018 at 5:39 AM, KBrownie said:

That's the most ridiculous part of this entire thing for me.  Why is Stan made to look like a complete and utter fool and end of betraying his country for two people who get off totally scot-free for all the horrific things they did in the name of theirs?   Awful.  If they were really worth it, they would have never left him to do it.  He obviously wasn't worth it to them.  They sure weren't willing to sacrifice shit for him, but he becomes a turncoat.  All for some true love conquers all bullshit.  

I don't think he did it (just) for them. I think dispite his protestations he knew what was on the line for ruassia and US-russian relations, should Gorbatschow be assasinated. That was the thing that convinced him to let them go. Before that revealation he told them multiple times to get on the ground.

So in a way, he did it for his country. To end the cold war (for a while at least).

 

On 31.5.2018 at 5:50 AM, tennisgurl said:

I am so deeply depressed by Oleg`s apparent fate rotting in an American prison for the rest of his life for trying to make a better life for his country and family. I like to think he could get out one day when they realize what he was trying to do, but I dont know. 

My head canon is that Arkady, Elisabeth, Philip and his father will vouch for the fact that Oleg was instrumental in saving Gorbatschhows life and that he'll do everything in his power to get Oleg out.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Miles

[Roseanna]

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 6:33 AM, jjj said:

I simply cannot believe, "after all this time," Stan, that you let them go.

 

 

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 6:39 AM, KBrownie said:

That's the most ridiculous part of this entire thing for me.  Why is Stan made to look like a complete and utter fool and end of betraying his country for two people who get off totally scot-free for all the horrific things they did in the name of theirs?   Awful.  If they were really worth it, they would have never left him to do it.  He obviously wasn't worth it to them.  They sure weren't willing to sacrifice shit for him, but he becomes a turncoat.  All for some true love conquers all bullshit.  

 

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 6:40 AM, Cardie said:

Who would have thought we'd have a finale with no one dying and a sort of happy ending for Philip and Elizabeth. If this had been a network show, I would totally believe that Stan couldn't shoot them but The Americans always seemed edgier and headed for tragedy. Oh well, fooled me. I'm sentimental so I didn't mind them escaping back to the USSR, from a narrative, not a moral point of view. They did lose their kids and it's not clear what anyone's future will be. Paige, drinking vodka at Claudia's, didn't seem headed anywhere good. In the end, emotions won out and everyone chose who and where they wanted to be. Stan is ready to accept Renee even though she might still be a spy, just as his friendship for Philip overrode his duty to his country

 

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 6:44 AM, Dminches said:

Great ending.  Unfortunately Philip and Elizabeth are left with nothing but memories.  I thought the scene with Beamon was an all time great one.  I really don’t understand what people who did not like it were hoping for.

 

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 6:49 AM, Bannon said:

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that they made Stan such a towering moron that he doesn't grasp the likelihood that Phil killed Amador. For some reason, however, I thought the writers would not, in the final episode fall prey to the failing I hate most heavily serialized t.v. drama, which is making the characters idiots for purposes of getting to the scenes the writers wish to write. Really hate that they did this, and what's worse is that they did it with Liz and Phil, too. Paige was a given, I guess. Ugh.

 

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 6:54 AM, Misstify said:

The scene in the garage with Stan reminded me of The Sound of Music, in the churchyard when Capt. von Trapp tries to persuade Rolf to let them go.  I can't believe Stan let them go, though.  I guess he really believed, or wanted to believe, that they didn't do the murders?  I would have liked to see a scene later on that showed Stan grappling with the fact that he let them go and basically has to live a lie now (he will have to lie to Aderholt, who had Thanksgiving at his house with the Jenningses, for the rest of his life).

I also would have liked a bit more on what happens to Paige now.  I can't quite believe she doesn't crack immediately under questioning.  

 

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 6:55 AM, GussieK said:

The only way I can buy Stan betraying the US is that he has throughout the series betrayed the US a few times. And he was established as a former undercover.  A complex character. But Philip really played him at the end. But I think he truthfully thought of Stan as his friend. 

I don't agree that Stan "betrayed his country" by letting P&E go. Philip made him realize, unlike Oleg, that he was wrong to claim that it didn't matter who was in power in the USSR - it did matter also to the US because the question was about the world peace. Just like Elizabeth in the previous episode, Stan made the decision by himself. And just like the priest in the interrogation, Stan chose "the big picture" over his own feelings.

As for the murders, I think Elizabeth lied that they didn't commit them, more for Paige than for Stan who was unlikely to believe her. And although Philip, as Clark, killed Amador, it was because Amador stalked Martha's boyfriend. Instead, Stan killed Vlad in vengeance which I think was one of the worst deeds done in the series. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Roseanna
correcting grammar

[Roseanna]

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 8:58 AM, ruby24 said:

I really think that I've been totally misreading the show all these years. I thought Philip and Elizabeth would split apart due to the unfixable rift between them, then Philip would make some kind of deal with the FBI and Stan to turn double agent on her and help take her down in exchange for immunity for himself and the kids.

Although Philip suggested defection in the pilot, I don't think it was never an option for it means that you betray your country *and* your comrades, the deal with the FBI meaning that you tell evereything about the people you know and have worked with for years. If you have an ideology that's different from that of your country, you can do it. But Philip didn't care for ideology, he cared for his country. Even more he cared for his family, but mostly he cared for Elizabeth. I don't think that he never could have betrayed her in earnest - in the end he chose to tell her the truth which made her see that she had been fooled.  

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 9:28 AM, anonymiss said:

Some residual regrets about what happened to Nina may have factored into Stan making the decision to put his gun down.

Yes, Nina's fate altered Stan for good. He came to the counter intelligence as a cop, but with Nina he became too personal.

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 9:39 AM, tinderbox said:

I thought the garage scene was outstanding but cried my eyes out during their final telephone conversation with Henry. 

The telephone conversation was very American. Both P&E said that they loved Henry, although they almost never used the word to each other. 

It was definitifely "a good bye call" (that kind spies never should make before leaving their loved ones) but Henry who had interpreted his parents' feelings ringht before, now only wondered if his father was drunk.

I think that the most important point was before the concersation: it was Philip who had bonded with Henry in S6 who said that it was too dangerous to call Henry (and he was quite right), but it was Elizabeth of whom many have said here that she doesn't care for Henry, that wanted to do it.  

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 10:19 AM, Plums said:

I think it's all believable. Stan can't control how he feels about the Jennings family, no matter what he knows or thinks he knows about them now. He was never going to be able to shoot them, especially not in front of Paige. He loves them, despite knowing they're killers. I think he was also just in shock and reeling from the emotional devastation, and it was an awesome moment when Philip cut the bullshit (not entirely) and got real with him, like, Elizabeth could not believe it. It reminded me of when Martha was losing it and Philip took the Clark disguise off, when continued survival called for a gesture of dangerous emotional honesty and trust. The moment was about the personal betrayal in their relationship, not FBI vs. KGB, which is ultimately more fitting a confrontation in a show about love and family. Philip really did love Stan, and he really did hate himself, and he wanted Stan to know that while also trying to manipulate him into letting them go. It was heartbreaking and really great. It was not at all how I expected a confrontation with them to go down, but it really worked. I was not expecting at all that Stan would just continue on and lie so easily the next day. 

A good comparion with Martha. 

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 11:19 AM, ren said:

So Oleg is going to rot away in a jail cell for nothing, as Father Andrei gave up Phillip and Elizabeth's identities anyway. Well, no one said The Americans was fair. No one sticks to their words and lived by the principles they exclaim; not Father Andrei, not Elizabeth, not Stan. Oleg was just too good for the people in the show.  

Oleg didn't rot in the prison for nothing - he succeeded although he doesn't know it yet. And even if he had failed, he was right to try.

As for Father Andrei, Aderholt dealt well with him - he had to choose what was more important to him: God and his Church or the KGB and Jenningses. 

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 4:09 PM, companionenvy said:

Again, this kind of moral equivalency is part of what bothers me about the idea. Stan's killing of Vlad was inexcusable, and the FBI has certainly played dirty over the course of the series, but none of this rises to the level of what the Jenningses have done. Even if Stan doesn't know the whole laundry list of crimes, he knows enough -- and, perhaps more importantly, we as viewers know enough -- that it isn't satisfying to play this as one spy realizing he has no room to pass judgment on another, because he absolutely does. 

You forgot that whatever Jenningses had done, now it was also in the interest of the US, that Gorbatschov stayed in power.

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 4:27 PM, kokapetl said:

Personally, I don’t think that justice or retribution were significant themes in the show. Personally, I feel that the dramatic tension with Stan was largely not that he could potentially build a case that would lead to the Jennings’ conviction, but rather that his proximity and genuine relationships with the Jennings, which the Jennings and Stan really needed for their sanity, was a double edged sword, that at any random point during their mutually beneficial friendship, he could suddenly figure out the big secret and end up completely destroying the Jennings, and likely destroy himself mentally as well. I felt the garage confrontation, which focused on the Jennings and Stans relationship, was a satisfactory resolution to that conflict. In my opinion, the Jennings demonstrated their genuine trust and high regard for Stan by asking him to look after Henry. I believe they do care about their children.

That!

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 4:36 PM, whiporee said:

Without starting any kind of argument, would you feel the same way about an American who put their country first, last, always? An American spy who was willing to sacrifice everything for their country? Because it seems to me that's something most consider heroic. It's just that this time those "virtues" were for our enemy. But does it make it any less heroic? 

Just curious.  

Putting this question was one of the things I liked in this show.

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 4:48 PM, Ellaria Sand said:

I have always thought that this show was about the authenticity of relationships; most obviously, the fake marriage that became a real one. And I appreciated that, in the end, we are still wondering about the authenticity of some key relationships: Stan and Philip, Stan and Renee, Paige and her parents. You could even push it further and question the authenticity of the relationship of these agents and the countries that they claim to fight for and defend. 

That.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't agree that Stan "betrayed his country" by letting P&E go. Philip made him realize, unlike Oleg, that he was wrong to claim that it didn't matter who was in power in the USSR - it did matter also to the US because the question was about the world peace. Just like Elizabeth in the previous episode, Stan made the decision by himself. And just like the priest in the interrogation, Stan chose "the big picture" over his own feelings.

I agree. Stan's situation was such that in letting the Jennings go he was protecting Gorbachev and beyond that they were stopped anyway. Whether they're in jail or not, they're no longer operating in the US.  It's also well led-up to with the investigation Stan was doing, which always seemed more like Stan looking for a reason to dismiss the idea they were spies. If he was really being driven by anger and revenge at the idea of Philip being KGB, he'd have nipped things in the bud by really checking him out, not poked around the edges like he did.

Plus, it actually is important that Philip told Stan about his suspicions about Renee. That was a personal thing he wanted to do to protect Stan but it also potentially gives up a different spy. I don't agree with the quoted post about Stan being ready to accept Renee even if she's a spy. Stan would never just accept being married to a woman he knows is actually there to spy on him and use him. He just hasn't dealt with her yet. Philip's telling him that was more proof that Philip's personal feelings for Stan were real. Renee's, if she's actually a spy, are most certainly not. As was Philip's hug earlier.

19 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Although Philip suggested defection in the pilot, I don't think it was never an option for it means that you betray your country *and* your comrades, the deal with the FBI meaning that you tell evereything about the people you know and have worked with for years. If you have an ideology that's different from that of your country, you can do it. But Philip didn't care for ideology, he cared for his country. Even more he cared for his family, but mostly he cared for Elizabeth. I don't think that he never could have betrayed her in earnest - in the end he chose to tell her the truth which made her see that she had been fooled.  

Yes, I honestly never saw the show setting up anything like a final shootout between P&E. The idea of him running with the kids to the FBI never seemed connected to reality for me--especially as the kids got older and probably wouldn't have been that focused on him. Their relationship wasn't really a volatile one. They had they same values--their country, each other, the kids. They just often disagreed on what was best or these things and expressed them differently. (For Elizabeth the ideology was the country far more than it was for Philip, for instance.) They relied on each other to keep them in touch with all these things. Elizabeth ultimately wanted Philip to keep her from turning away from life and family. But Philip just as much wanted Elizabeth to keep him working for things outside of that. In the end, as he puts it, he put his country first like she would have done--and he doesn't do it because she shames him into it.

19 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Yes, Nina's fate altered Stan for good. He came to the counter intelligence as a cop, but with Nina he became too personal.

The telephone conversation was very American. Both P&E said that they loved Henry, although they almost never used the word to each other. 

I think Philip says it something like 3x to Elizabeth and she never says it to Philip. Though they both say it to the kids.

19 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

It was definitifely "a good bye call" (that kind spies never should make before leaving their loved ones) but Henry who had interpreted his parents' feelings ringht before, now only wondered if his father was drunk.

I feel like all the characters in the last episode did what they'd done before. Stan protecting the Jennings was like his trying to protect Nina and Oleg, spies he identified with, Paige's getting off the train was like her calling Pastor Tim on her parents, Henry again retreated into a safer world with his parents more at arms' length. On one level we can accept that Henry just thought Dad was being maudlin and drunk but I can't help but feel that this was also just Henry's usual inner alarm going off and making him back away. Especially with Mom getting on the phone again to agree with Philip. I just think there's a lot of "don't wanna know" going on with Henry since he got old enough.

19 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I think that the most important point was before the concersation: it was Philip who had bonded with Henry in S6 who said that it was too dangerous to call Henry (and he was quite right), but it was Elizabeth of whom many have said here that she doesn't care for Henry, that wanted to do it.  

That also kind of goes back to what I was thinking about Great Patriotic War. Until the end Philip is thinking the most important thing to do is to protect his kids from himself; Elizabeth thinks it's important to have some kind of good-bye as themselves. (But she did burn the letter Leanne and Emmett wrote to Jared, so she understands both impulses.)

[Chaos Theory]

I wayched something on YouTube recently that had the showrunner Say  That purposefully wrote all the main characters without any self awareness.  People liked to complain about Paige but it all the main cast who lacked any self awareness.   The closest was Philip when he went to EST but the only awareness he got was that he was unhappy.  

As for why Stan didn’t turn in the Jennings I think it was in that moment he stepped aside for his friend. He wasn’t Stan Beeman FBI Agent he was Stan Beeman Next door neighbor and best friend to Philip Jennings.  It was as simple and uncomplicated as that,  “You were my friend.  I would have done anything for you.”  I think I am paraphrasing. I think at that singular moment he is doing one last thing for the best friend he ever had.    After that he become Stan Beeman FBI agent again. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

As for Father Andrei, Aderholt dealt well with him - he had to choose what was more important to him: God and his Church or the KGB and Jenningses. 

And it was an argument that Aderholt was uniquely qualified to make, because his whole character is centered around the idea of enshrining institutional loyalty above personal connections or grievances.

[Roseanna]

12 minutes ago, Dev F said:

And it was an argument that Aderholt was uniquely qualified to make, because his whole character is centered around the idea of enshrining institutional loyalty above personal connections or grievances.

Yes, Aderhild never had such a personal relationship Stan had with Nina and Oleg. He was a better agent than Stan. 

[Roseanna]

29 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

As for why Stan didn’t turn in the Jennings I think it was in that moment he stepped aside for his friend. He wasn’t Stan Beeman FBI Agent he was Stan Beeman Next door neighbor and best friend to Philip Jennings.  It was as simple and uncomplicated as that,  “You were my friend.  I would have done anything for you.”  I think I am paraphrasing. I think at that singular moment he is doing one last thing for the best friend he ever had.    After that he become Stan Beeman FBI agent again. 

"If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country." (Edward M. Forster)

However, Andrew Boyle in his book about Cambridge spies, The Climate of Treason, quates Goronwy Rees who writes that

Quote

Forster's antithesis was a false one. One's country was not some abstract conception which it might relatively easy to sacrifice for the sake of an individual; it was made of dense Network of individual and social relationhips in which loyalty to one particular person formed only a single Strand.

I don't think that Stan would have let Jenningses go if Oleg and Stan hadn't made him realize that whatever had happened past, now they had a common interest to prevent a coup againts Gorbatshov.

But who knows? Stan was alone. Could he really have been a match for Philip and Elizabeth (Paige was of course no help)? 

Why did he go alone? Did he want to kill P&E, especially Philip, but couldn't because of Paige?

[Chaos Theory]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

 

Why did he go alone? Did he want to kill P&E, especially Philip, but couldn't because of Paige?

I think he went alone because even he didn’t know what he was going to do.  Taking anyone else with him would have called his hand.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 6:33 AM, aquarian1 said:

I wonder how long it took Philip and Elizabeth to get to Russia. 

A couple of days. The quickest way would have been They could have to been to fly to Moscow but instead chose to flow to Europe and them drive to the USSR. It wasn't clear where they crossed the border but it wasn't a town. (Irl the previous cars would have inspected much more closely.)

I guess the last scene in Moscow was from Lenin mountains (Sparrow mountains) that is desribed in Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I wayched something on YouTube recently that had the showrunner Say  That purposefully wrote all the main characters with any self awareness.  People liked to complain about Paige but it all the main cast who lacked any self awareness.   The closest was Philip when he went to EST but the only awareness he got was that he was unhappy.  

I remember they used to say that all the time--all the younger characters when we had a chance to see it had more self-awareness than the adults. That made sense both because they were teenagers thinking about themselves as they tried to figure out who they were and also they were 80s kids growing up in a time where self-awareness was more of a thing. I mean, Paige, for instance, did seem to basically know why she was doing what she was doing. She didn't put too much effort into pretending she was really into Russia or Communism or even the spiritual part of Christianity before that. (She tried more with the latter, I think.) She lays it out for Elizabeth in Harvest. In fact, thinking back, people more pointed out her lack of outside awareness rather than self-awareness. She maybe wasn't so self-aware enough to just come out and say that she was choosing to believe Elizabeth because Elizabeth was her role model now, but she wasn't not saying that either. Really, isn't that a big thing that separates her from her parents in terms of the ratio of being motivated by personal vs. external things?

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

And it was an argument that Aderholt was uniquely qualified to make, because his whole character is centered around the idea of enshrining institutional loyalty above personal connections or grievances.

I have to admit I thought Aderholt just gave Andrei an out. I don't think he was doing anything "for the church." I think it was just a way for him to say he was making a sacrifice so he could feel not just okay but good about turning on Philip and Elizabeth, who he already accidentally revealed anyway. I don't think he felt that passionately about either one in that sense.

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think that Stan would have let Jenningses go if Oleg and Stan hadn't made him realize that whatever had happened past, now they had a common interest to prevent a coup againts Gorbatshov.

Yes, I think it's over simplistic to just say Philip was his friend. I don't think Stan would betray his country just because someone was his friend. He didn't for Nina and that hadn't changed. In that situation it was about saving Nina's life by giving up Echo. He could do it here, imo, because of a lot of things about Philip. His argument resonated with him, he'd seen him genuinely struggling. He knew Philip well enough to unconsciously trust the kind of man he was and his perspective on things. There's a lot of things leading up to it--including what William said back in S4. He didn't just talk about the guy who was lucky with a pretty wife, he described the total isolation of being an Illegal that Philip completely echoed in the garage.

If he'd had to I absolutely believe that Stan would have killed Philip and vice versa, but neither thought they had to do that.

Edited November 26, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

On ‎1‎.‎6‎.‎2018 at 10:40 PM, Umbelina said:

Philip along the way fell in love with her, certainly her beauty was a huge part of that, men being the way they are, but there was also a great deal of admiration for her absolute dedication and proficiency about their cause.  

Philip told Gabriel that he fell for Elizabeth the very moment they met. 

On ‎1‎.‎6‎.‎2018 at 11:36 PM, Erin9 said:

I thought Paige’s reaction was primarily human. Not American. Definitely not selfish- she wasn’t talking about herself.

 I think it is normal when you’re given life altering news for your mind to just spin in a million directions- from the huge- we’re going to RUSSIA and leaving without Henry and dad can’t talk to him again - to the comparatively small- Henry’s college education funding. 

Of course it's normal - but it showed what an amateur Paige was. Staying just a couple minutes to talk could be put them in danger.

Paige, becoming a doctor or a cop isn't for you.

On ‎2‎.‎6‎.‎2018 at 12:18 AM, Avaleigh said:

When Philip explained to Paige that there was no place for Henry where they were going, I feel like that went a long way to influencing Paige to stay. The same thing could easily be said about her. If there's no place for Henry, why would it be so different for Paige? All the reasons they gave for why Henry should stay could all be applied to Paige. She's in a great school, she was presumably doing well there (so well that they thought she was on the track for getting a top tier job one day), she's meeting people she genuinely likes and seems to finally be getting friends, etc. Why throw it away if she still has the opportunity to continue doing what she was doing minus the spying?

Just spying was an elemental difference between Henry and Paige. Henry hadn't done anything illegal, Paige had and could get sentenced for it. So she had to make a decision: to leave to a foreign country where she can be with her parents or to stay in the country she was born in and where she can be with Henry but where she can also go to the prison. 

On ‎2‎.‎6‎.‎2018 at 3:47 AM, sistermagpie said:

It's a callback to Elizabeth, having been told that her mother said she loved her before she died, saying, "Did she?" Which could mean either "Did she say that really?" or "Did she love me, really?"

Unlike the Americans (at least in the series), people in the other countries don't constantly say "I love you". 

In her tapes, E's mom said that she missed her which to me was a a clear sign that she loved her.   

On ‎2‎.‎6‎.‎2018 at 4:26 AM, sistermagpie said:

I know I sometimes saw reactions from viewers that were really dismissive of the USSR in general--like they couldn't really wrap their head around the idea that anyone there would actually see it as their home and love it the way someone in the US would. 

Yes, I have noticed that too. Yet, not all who immigrated to the US stayed there but returned after having enough money to buy a farm or start a firm. 

On ‎2‎.‎6‎.‎2018 at 5:28 AM, shura said:

In the garage, Philip says to Stan "All these years we watched Americans, recruited Americans - and now we finally, actually got something - and it's the fucking Russians," Finally, actually? As if everything they'd done in the previous twenty plus years wasn't that serious and didn't really amount to much? That's one hundred percent manipulation on Philip's part.

No, it isn't. Of course Philip cares more for struggling other Russians, just as Americans would be more shocked if it were Americans who would try to overthrpw their government. 

On ‎2‎.‎6‎.‎2018 at 7:48 AM, sistermagpie said:

I thought it was what he told Stan--EST is about those moments where you know what to do as yourself instead of as a role you're supposed to play. How do you move forward in the dark room? I think Philip really did believe that it was Stan's true nature to let them go. Really a lot of the characters faced those kind of surprising character-defining moments this season, the ones that proved who they really were. Elizabeth killing Tatiana, Philip working with Oleg, Paige getting off the train, Stan letting the Jennings go. 

That. They don't any more do what they are ordered do, they make their own choices. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On ‎2‎.‎6‎.‎2018 at 8:17 PM, shura said:

Right, but regardless of how sincerely Philip believes in what he is saying, it is simply not true that this last mission is finally, after all these years, something that is actually of consequence. To Philip's feelings maybe, but not to Stan or even to Elizabeth. Everything they did has done real damage to the US and its people. You think Philip does not realize that as he is EST-bombing Stan with his "weaponized sincerity" (love the phrase) in an effort to get Stan to let them go? Maybe, I don't know. It's hard to imagine that, when he lists "following Americans, recruiting Americans, being afraid of Americans", he forgets to include the "killing Americans" part because he sincerely doesn't remember about it at that moment. It is something that has been bothering him, how can he forget? No, he is choosing what to say and what to omit. It is manipulative.

No, it's realistic and pragmatic. Also former enemies can work together, when they have common interests.   

On ‎3‎.‎6‎.‎2018 at 2:33 AM, Umbelina said:

We don't KNOW what happens to them in Russia though.  We do know Arkady is afraid for his life because he opposed the Coup.  We do know Claudia is furious that Elizabeth and Philip helped derail the Coup.  We do know that Arkady's boss and several other hugely powerful government officials were FOR the Coup, and we also know that Gorbachev doesn't even have the power to save Oleg.  Bullets in Philip and Elizabeth's brains and very soon are a very likely outcome.  Ditto for Oleg's dad if they decode the phone messages.  Those people are not going to let this go.  The same people do get Gorbachev out in 1991, even though Communism and everything they believe in, including the USSR fails.  

Gorbachov has no proof - no he does.

The same people didn't get Gorbatshov out - the coup in 1991 failed. Jeltsin who won wasn't one of the, and certainly the Baltic states.  

As for "everything they believed" failed - well, Communism was an utopia that wasn't compatible with the human nature. 




























 

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Just spying was an elemental difference between Henry and Paige. Henry hadn't done anything illegal, Paige had and could get sentenced for it. So she had to make a decision: to leave to a foreign country where she can be with her parents or to stay in the country she was born in and where she can be with Henry but where she can also go to the prison. 

I feel like there was a lot of assumptions there with Paige that were understandable and a result of things she'd done before as well. There's the spying, of course. By spying for the USSR she'd declared herself loyal to that country over her own and it was shocking when it turned out that she still didn't understand the reality of that. (Another amateur moment.) She thought the idea of living in the USSR was crazy--and it wasn't like with Gregory where he just knew it wasn't an option for him.

But there's also the fact that Paige had made the decision to tie herself so tightly to her mother and her parents that they didn't even consider the idea of her not continuing to follow behind them like a duckling. She didn't have much in her life apart from her Russia games with her parents. I think if she hadn't worked with Elizabeth Philip might have encouraged her to stay behind or at least tried to imagine a way she could the way he imagined a way he could stay long enough to make things better with Henry. But I feel like it was also just that she'd continued to be so high maintenance while Henry was independent. His immediate future was set without them in ways Paige's wasn't because of their different personalities.

[Roseanna]

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 4:51 PM, KBrownie said:

I already addressed this in a reply to Umbelina.  My opinion doesn't change if it were Americans.  Wrong is wrong.  If this show were Americans in Russia killing and creating innocent children as part of "doing their jobs" or "for their country," I would feel the same way.  But since this show isn't about what the Americans were doing, I'm not going to focus on that.  Phillip and Elizabeth are bad people who I feel should have had to suffer more as punishment for their many, many crimes.  Their relationship, while interesting, doesn't negate the fact that they are amoral, selfish, murderers.  

Arthur Koestler spoke about "yogis" and "comissars". Yogis think that one must always do the right thing - even if the result is wrong. A pacifist wants to keep her own conscience pure and therefore don't use violence even to prevent children's murder.  

Comissars think that the end justifies the means, and therefore they can do bad things for "the greater good". Unfornately, if one does often wrong, the result can't be good. One can't build a good society with mass murders and lies, like the Soviets did. 

A person doesn't make a decision in the vacuum but in the particular curcumstances and that is especially true in the international politics and spying. Those who were your enemies or adversaries yesterday, can be your allies or at least have common interests with you today and vice versa.

Whatever P&E had done in the past, if Stan had shot or arrested them now, he would have made great harm to the American interests by helping those who wanted to supplant Gorbatshov.   

[Roseanna]

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 8:54 PM, hellmouse said:

The one big question I am still wondering about is logistical and really has no bearing on the plot, but I do wonder how long it took Philip and Elizabeth to reach the Soviet border. Assuming they departed from Montreal, where did they fly to? Could they fly directly from Canada to an Eastern Bloc country? I feel like that would have been tricky without a visa. Maybe they needed to go somewhere like West Germany and then drive the rest of the way? 

It's almost 1,000 miles from Berlin to Moscow. That's a long drive. Perhaps the border crossing was not in Russia proper but in Belarus or Ukraine.

There was no border crossing in Russia proper because Belarus and Ukraina were parts of the Soviet Union. 

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 9:19 PM, kokapetl said:

Finland? More properly known as @suomi ?

 

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 9:31 PM, hellmouse said:

That could work. Helsinki to Moscow is a much shorter drive than Berlin would be. IIRC, Finland was not part of the USSR so they could probably fly from Montreal to Helsinki, then drive to the border. 

It could be, but it certainly wasn't filmed here.

Plus, the writers had no information how strict the Soviet border control. You couldn't just sit in your car like the passangers in previous cars. Your passport was checked twice (actually, it was done also in 2014). Your car and luggage were searched and you had to write in detail your valuables (money, gold ec).

I wouldn't recommend driving from Helsinki to Moscow (1106 km, 687 mi). The night train was much more comfortable (as well as gave many historical memories). But I understand that driving was selected for the story's sake.

[sistermagpie]

23 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I think he went alone because even he didn’t know what he was going to do.  Taking anyone else with him would have called his hand.  

Also at that point he was following his own hunch. He'd told Aderholdt about his suspicions but it would have been hard for him in that moment to pull the one other agent with him off the surveillance they were supposed to be doing to check his own personal hunch. But I agree it was probably mostly a personal decision. He didn't demand a check on the Jenningses.

[Umbelina]

11 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Whatever P&E had done in the past, if Stan had shot or arrested them now, he would have made great harm to the American interests by helping those who wanted to supplant Gorbatshov.   

Not really.

There were MANY other ways Gorbachev could have been informed, telephones exist, and the relationship between the two countries was already being negotiated in the START stuff, tell the good diplomat for example, or call Gorbachev directly.

Philip and Elizabeth being captured wouldn't have stopped Gorbachev learning about the Coup.  Honestly, I don't quite get that whole thing, Arkady ALREADY KNEW.

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

There was no border crossing in Russia proper because Belarus and Ukraina were parts of the Soviet Union. 

 

It could be, but it certainly wasn't filmed here.

Plus, the writers had no information how strict the Soviet border control. You couldn't just sit in your car like the passangers in previous cars. Your passport was checked twice (actually, it was done also in 2014). Your car and luggage were searched and you had to write in detail your valuables (money, gold ec).

I wouldn't recommend driving from Helsinki to Moscow (1106 km, 687 mi). The night train was much more comfortable (as well as gave many historical memories). But I understand that driving was selected for the story's sake.

You don't take public transportation when escaping, especially not so near to Germany and the USSR, let alone borders, when the CIA and allies would already be looking for them.  A car would be safest.  They didn't get out of the car because obviously Arkady arranged for a remote checkpoint entry, and all Elizabeth or Philip had to do is say a code name, or other signal, the guards at that post were expecting them, not knowing who they were of course, just that they were KGB cleared VIPs.  Realistically, they probably drove back roads and stayed off major roads to get to that checkpoint. 

Frankly, them being on the train to Canada was pretty silly too, but at least they showed ID's being checked.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Umbelina

[Roseanna]

56 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

There were MANY other ways Gorbachev could have been informed, telephones exist, and the relationship between the two countries was already being negotiated in the START stuff, tell the good diplomat for example, or call Gorbachev directly.

Philip and Elizabeth being captured wouldn't have stopped Gorbachev learning about the Coup.  Honestly, I don't quite get that whole thing, Arkady ALREADY KNEW.

Arkady knew only that there was a danger when he sent Oleg to the US, but he hadn't any evidence. Claudia told the plan to Elizabeth and her testimany would be much more convincing than only a sending message that could be doubted.  

[Umbelina]

8 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Arkady knew only that there was a danger when he sent Oleg to the US, but he hadn't any evidence. Claudia told the plan to Elizabeth and her testimany would be much more convincing than only a sending message that could be doubted.  

Philip AND Oleg told Stan.  If Stan brought them in, they would spill all of that for their country and/or for immunity for their daughter.  The FBI tells the President, and he picks up the phone.  Done.

Or, he puts Elizabeth on the phone, either way, there was absolutely NO need for Elizabeth or Philip to be physically present in Russia in order for the messages to get through, and indeed, they would probably be killed there before they could do it.

ETA

Since Elizabeth inexplicably spilled her guts to Claudia, Claudia has ALREADY informed Arkady's boss that her KGB agents went rogue, against the orders of Center, and are trying to stop the Coup.  Oleg's messages to his dad have probably already been decoded, and his dad is probably under arrest, mom too.  Arkady may or may not be suspected.  He will be when the whole border thing is exposed.  They have highly placed people with Gorbachev, and will know if he already knows, if not, killing Philip and Elizabeth is probably their most important next move, BEFORE they tell Gorby.  Oleg's already in prison and can't get messages out, so they won't bother with him unless he is released.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Umbelina

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

You don't take public transportation when escaping, especially not so near to Germany and the USSR, let alone borders, when the CIA and allies would already be looking for them.  A car would be safest.  They didn't get out of the car because obviously Arkady arranged for a remote checkpoint entry, and all Elizabeth or Philip had to do is say a code name, or other signal, the guards at that post were expecting them, not knowing who they were of course, just that they were KGB cleared VIPs.  Realistically, they probably drove back roads and stayed off major roads to get to that checkpoint. .

I meant that the other passangers just sat in their cars.

I doubt if there was any "remote checkpoint entries". Finland and the Soviet Union had a very long border but only a few checkpoint entries, unlike Finland and Sweden in the North where people didn't need any passport.

Well, that is a series.  

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I meant that the other passangers just sat in their cars.

I doubt if there was any "remote checkpoint entries". Finland and the Soviet Union had a very long border but only a few checkpoint entries, unlike Finland and Sweden in the North where people didn't need any passport.

Well, that is a series.  

I don't think they specified which border they were at, Russia has very very long borders.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Frankly, them being on the train to Canada was pretty silly too, but at least they showed ID's being checked.

They sat separately in the train in order to show that they weren't a family the police was looking for, so they would have killed three cars.

In any case, it wasn't as silly an escape than that of Brody in Homeland S2 - as if there was no surveillance cameras.    

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think they specified which border they were at, Russia has very very long borders.

The principle is the same. Also the border zone was very wide.

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

They sat separately in the train in order to show that they weren't a family the police was looking for, so they would have killed three cars.

In any case, it wasn't as silly an escape than that of Brody in Homeland S2 - as if there was no surveillance cameras.    

The principle is the same. Also the border zone was very wide.

The route was in place since they landed in the USA to begin with, I'm sure it was updated along the way, and various contacts were available to Arkady, as well as drop points for cars, ID's, anything escaping agents needed.  Obviously Arkady had others set up since his boss was in the Coup, but that's routine shit, and even his boss didn't expect Elizabeth and Philip to be escaping...although he would know because of Elizabeth's big mouth telling Claudia.  Arkady's always been bright though, and with one agent captured (Oleg) I'm sure he had other, secret, escape plans in place for Phil and Liz just in case.  He's covering his own ass as well, from the KGB, after all.

[Umbelina]

18 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

They sat separately in the train in order to show that they weren't a family the police was looking for, so they would have killed three cars.

In any case, it wasn't as silly an escape than that of Brody in Homeland S2 - as if there was no surveillance cameras.    

The principle is the same. Also the border zone was very wide.

Sitting separately is a given, and would be expected by real agents, it's the ticket buying that is most problematic there.

Yes, the border was huge, and I'm sure crossing it wasn't THAT big a deal for KGB to arrange, a friend of mine sneaked back in and back out again almost that same year, to visit his sick mother, he used the southern route, since he spoke all of those languages as well as English, Russian, French, etc.

[sistermagpie]

I was thinking about the very few times in the whole series where the leads used Russian and it occurred it me it's kind of interesting that twice Elizabeth speaks it to Philip (each time it's significant) but Philip never speaks it to Elizabeth. He speaks it in front of her a few times--in their wedding to Father Andrei, speaks it to Harvest. In both those cases he's responding to Russian to someone who's spoken to him in Russian, which is pretty normal. (When Paige asks them to speak it Elizabeth speaks and Philip translates.)

Only in START, here, does he just choose to speak it all on his own when he asks Arkady to stop the car, even though he knows that Arkady speaks English. We don't know what language they did or didn't speak earlier on the trip, but the only other time we saw Philip speak to Arkady it was in English, back in Echo. It just seemed interesting to me that the show had Philip and Elizabeth's last scene be in English (of course), and chose to have Elizabeth speak the last line in Russian, and chose a line where the use of Russian obviously added more deeper meaning to the word(s) in several ways. Even people who are bilingual tend to stick to the one language they usually speak to with each other until something breaks the ice on the second language. (Oleg and Nina do this--they always speak Russian to each other until the polygraph scene where they have to speak English; in their next scene they playfully speak a little English with each other.)

They could have had that line of Elizabeth's imply that she was pushing Philip back into Russian--I feel like a lot of people probably remember it like that, as if Philip clung to English and Elizabeth had to announce they would now speak Russian. So she was not only breaking the ice on their second language but also being the one to be Russian.

But the writers did actually choose to have Philip speak it first to Arkady. Given how sparingly Russian is used for the leads, they must have thought it was important. He wakes up and looks out the window and recognizes in the way you recognize this sort of thing on long trips, that they're home. That makes him ask Arkady to stop the car and to ask it in Russian. This would make sense if Arkady had greeted them in that language and they already all had a nice long chat in it, but the show intentionally doesn't set that up. What we see is just Philip responding to the landscape, even if he still more naturally speaks to Elizabeth in English.

[Roseanna]

Some have here criticized Stan's decision to let P&E go, but I think it is understandable in the context of choices made by Philip, Elizabeth and Oleg in S6. All of them made individual choices, even Elizabeth by killing the assassin (Tatiana) who wanted to kill Nesteronko and thus stage a coup against Gorbatshov.

If Stan had arrested P&E&Paige, he would just followed orders of his superiors - which would have made him, an American, look a conformist and collectivist, whereas P&E and Oleg would have follower their conscience.

In addition, I suspect that Stan, being alone, would have ven succeedes in arresting them, on the basis what we know of P&E's fighting skills even in the desperate situations. So Stan's actual choice was actually to shoot them on the distance - a way to solve the problem externally (badasses away from the world) that internally solves nothing.

Well, perhaps there was one way that Stan would have succeeded - to threaten and perhaps hurt Paige...    

[Umbelina]

17 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I was thinking about the very few times in the whole series where the leads used Russian

Honestly, in a way what you are saying is true, in that, at the very end, it was important for Elizabeth to answer in Russian. 

However, I think the truth is, both actors really sucked at speaking Russian, and in a cast with Russian speakers?  It was painfully obvious, so the writers simply avoided using it.   For the one line at the end?  Keri could practice and practice and come close, so they stuck it in there.

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

If Stan had arrested P&E&Paige, he would just followed orders of his superiors - which would have made him, an American, look a conformist and collectivist, whereas P&E and Oleg would have follower their conscience.

Stan would have "followed orders" by doing his job, and arresting known murderers, including the three FBI agents just murdered a few days ago.  There was no moral choice for him there, he wasn't sending innocents to gas chambers.  His job was to arrest them, and turn them over to a legal system, with judges and/or juries to decide their fate.  His job was to arrest them, so they could be questioned, and dozens of murders finally solved for the families of all the complete innocents Elizabeth and Philip killed, such as the scientist at the wheat field, the young navy guy just picking up take out food, the man Elizabeth crushed with a car, the airport worker Philip strangled on a bus, and a couple dozen more.

All of those grieving friends and families deserved answers, and Stan denied them that.\

In the USA cops are not also "judge and jury."  There is a system, and while that system can and does sometimes fail?  It's there for a reason.  Stan letting them all go was just as bad as Stan killing Vlad, he was a rogue cop, who felt himself above the law in both cases, acting as, not just cop, but judge and jury.  He was completely in the wrong, and will probably spend a long time in prison, at the very least, he will no longer be in the FBI.

I like Stan, but he is not a "good cop."  No one that considers themselves above the system is.  The victims (and their family and friends) deserved justice, and Stan denied them that.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Honestly, in a way what you are saying is true, in that, at the very end, it was important for Elizabeth to answer in Russian. 

However, I think the truth is, both actors really sucked at speaking Russian, and in a cast with Russian speakers?  It was painfully obvious, so the writers simply avoided using it.   For the one line at the end?  Keri could practice and practice and come close, so they stuck it in there.

I do think it was important that she answered in Russian, absolutely. It would be mean different things depending which character they even chose to do it--plus with Elizabeth doing it it parallels her one line at the end of S1 that she could also handle.

I agree, they did try to limit the Russian they had to speak. They have a perfect excuse, after all, but when they think the characters really would speak Russian, they do make them do it. The scene that most surprises me with this, actually, is that scene in Duty & Honor where they have the flashback with Philip and Irina. I still think the Russian MR has to speak there is more than all the Russian they ever have to speak otherwise and the scene feels so unnecessary that it still surprises me they felt they ought to do it. The guy has to spit out several full sentences where he's supposed to sound like he actually talks like this--poor guy. (Tbf, I think when Matthew Rhys only has to speak a just a word or two he apparently does really well, according to things I've heard from actual native speakers.)

But that's partly what makes me surprised that they chose to have him tell Arkady to stop the car in Russian. Arkady speaks English. He and Philip spoke English the one other time they met. It's not like Elizabeth speaking with her mother where she'd obviously have to speak Russian so they just kept it short. So it seems significant they thought that in those moment Philip would wake up, look out the window, address Arkady formally and ask to pull over in Russian. Basically I just mean that we know they'd want to avoid having the stars speak Russian so any time they choose to do it they must have a good reason for it. (Maybe in Duty & Honor they hadn't really accepted how much they should avoid it.)

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Some have here criticized Stan's decision to let P&E go, but I think it is understandable in the context of choices made by Philip, Elizabeth and Oleg in S6. All of them made individual choices, even Elizabeth by killing the assassin (Tatiana) who wanted to kill Nesteronko and thus stage a coup against Gorbatshov.

 

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

In the USA cops are not also "judge and jury."  There is a system, and while that system can and does sometimes fail?  It's there for a reason.  Stan letting them all go was just as bad as Stan killing Vlad, he was a rogue cop, who felt himself above the law in both cases, acting as, not just cop, but judge and jury.  He was completely in the wrong, and will probably spend a long time in prison, at the very least, he will no longer be in the FBI.

 

Yeah, I think that last paragraph is definitely Stan's pattern and it's one of the things that's there from the beginning to lay the groundwork for what he does at the end. There's a whole period in S4 I think where the whole office dislikes him and it's pretty much for this reason. He's not a team player ever. He gets rewarded for it after what he does with Oleg in catching Zinaida, but the reward's from people above Gaad's head. It also, it seems, because Reagan assumes that Stan was motivated by wanting to get the Russians. He doesn't realize that Stan was really motivated by wanting to get Nina back because he personally (and inaccurately) thought she was innocent in ways she didn't happen to be, and thought her own loyalties were with him when they weren't. Ironically later when the FBI wants to use those actions to their own advantage and US's advantage Stan uses his earlier rogue action with Vlad against them so they can't. This is also the guy who went to Gaad's widow for permission to let her husband's murder lie.

This maybe makes it make even more sense that Stan doesn't seem to be thinking about the dead agents in Chicago at all in the garage. He cares about Gennadi, his personal charge and personal failure. He cares about Amador. I think honestly his speech at Thanksgiving might be so OTT because Stan's unconsciously trying to convince himself.

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But that's partly what makes me surprised that they chose to have him tell Arkady to stop the car in Russian. Arkady speaks English. He and Philip spoke English the one other time they met. It's not like Elizabeth speaking with her mother where she'd obviously have to speak Russian so they just kept it short. So it seems significant they thought that in those moment Philip would wake up, look out the window, address Arkady formally and ask to pull over in Russian. Basically I just mean that we know they'd want to avoid having the stars speak Russian so any time they choose to do it they must have a good reason for it. (Maybe in Duty & Honor they hadn't really accepted how much they should avoid it.)

Frankly, and frankly, because it was so dark?  That scene was easily dubbed as well.

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

This maybe makes it make even more sense that Stan doesn't seem to be thinking about the dead agents in Chicago at all in the garage. He cares about Gennadi, his personal charge and personal failure. He cares about Amador.

Which is a failure of the writers, because there is no way in hell Stan would just forget about 3 dead FBI officers, OR all the other murders that happened just before he let them go.  Having Elizabeth go on an unprecedented murder spree was insane if this was was going to be their ending.  Ridiculous.

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

There's a whole period in S4 I think where the whole office dislikes him and it's pretty much for this reason. He's not a team player ever.

It's more than not being a "team player."  He was making his own rules, and breaking rules/laws.   What mattered to Stan was what Stan wanted, not the laws of the land, and that's really not good for an FBI agent.  He lied to his bosses, came thisclose to flat out treason, murdered for revenge, etc.  He was talented and had good instincts, and had some major wins, important wins, but he was also a wild card.   The ending, while perhaps romantic or whatever they were going for, but still?  He let murderers go, cop killers go, military personnel killers go, and why?  Fuck the laws he has sworn to uphold, he just felt like it.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Frankly, and frankly, because it was so dark?  That scene was easily dubbed as well.

True, but it's even easier to just let him say "Arkady Ivanovich, could you pull over" in English so they don't need to dub him at all. I'm wondering why somebody in writing the scene thought Philip should be saying this in Russian rather than English since every character in the car speaks English.

I mean, I don't think they generally look for places where the leads can speak Russian just because they can find a reason for it--it's the opposite, really. They have to have a psychological or practical reason behind it. When it's practical they often just try to limit it (like KR just saying "Da" over and over in Mexico City). So there was some character reason for Philip to do that. Important enough to have MR practice that line in Russian and do enough takes to get it right or dub it. 

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Which is a failure of the writers, because there is no way in hell Stan would just forget about 3 dead FBI officers, OR all the other murders that happened just before he let them go.  Having Elizabeth go on an unprecedented murder spree was insane if this was was going to be their ending.  Ridiculous.

I agree he would be. Having Stan focus on people he knows to this extent is too OTT to be intentional. It's also odd since Stan always felt most comfortable in his professional life more than his domestic life, despite the enjoyment he got from being connected to the Jennings. Even outside of the office being a refuge from home, Amador, Gaad and especially Aderholdt are really good to him personally. It's hard to imagine he wouldn't feel a deep loyalty to the organization. It's not even like he's like Philip who's watching his own strings being pulled by the FBI.

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It's more than not being a "team player."  He was making his own rules, and breaking rules/laws.   What mattered to Stan was what Stan wanted, not the laws of the land, and that's really not good for an FBI agent.  He lied to his bosses, came thisclose to flat out treason, murdered for revenge, etc.  He was talented and had good instincts, and had some major wins, important wins, but he was also a wild card.   The ending, while perhaps romantic or whatever they were going for, but still?  He let murderers go, cop killers go, military personnel killers go, and why?  Fuck the laws he has sworn to uphold, he just felt like it.

Absolutely. Calling him not a team player doesn't begin to cover it but I feel like that part's obvious enough that his co-workers call it out. Iirc, they see him as having thrown his department under the bus a bit to promote himself. Even Amador in D&H comments on how quickly Stan's rising personally--he says he doesn't resent that (and seems to mean it), he just doesn't think it's making him happy either. That Stan doesn't care about the rest of them seems to be the view of the rank and file in S4 at least before he redeems himself I think by getting Martha.

But we the audience know it goes much higher than that. The only time Stan didn't step over a line was when he didn't hand over Echo to Arkady for Nina and there again I think it was because he personally didn't think that was right for him. He was willing to hand over the surveillance reports Oleg asked for in secret and he went so far as to get his hands on Echo. That's not even getting to the murder he decided to commit etc.

It seemed to be, certainly, that he let the Jennings go for the same reason he held onto Echo and worked with Oleg and everything else. That is, for personal reasons. I just think it would have been too much of a personal loss for him in some way. He personally, imo, was okay with the Jennings getting away. I can imagine his arguments for that, but as you say...that's not Stan's call to make. 

[Umbelina]

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I agree he would be. Having Stan focus on people he knows to this extent is too OTT to be intentional. It's also odd since Stan always felt most comfortable in his professional life more than his domestic life, despite the enjoyment he got from being connected to the Jennings. Even outside of the office being a refuge from home, Amador, Gaad and especially Aderholdt are really good to him personally. It's hard to imagine he wouldn't feel a deep loyalty to the organization. It's not even like he's like Philip who's watching his own strings being pulled by the FBI.

Yes, and I didn't even mention that he walked through the blood of his two agents, and knew their child had seen the brutal murders, or at least the aftermath, of his mother and near-father.   You just don't forget that in one day, or year, or decade.  It was a horrific scene, and he knew all three of them.  That child will never be the same.

Let's not even get into one agent standing at one entrance as their "guard."  For fuck's sake that was so idiotic.

Also, and maybe it's because I have cops in my family, and cop friends?  Cops DO NOT LET COP KILLERS GO.  It's beyond ridiculous that those murders also JUST happened before Stan lets them go.

It's baffling to me how such previously good writers, if OTT at times, let this finale season play out, knowing this was the ending they were going to have.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, and I didn't even mention that he walked through the blood of his two agents, and knew their child had seen the brutal murders, or at least the aftermath, of his mother and near-father.   You just don't forget that in one day, or year, or decade.  It was a horrific scene, and he knew all three of them.  That child will never be the same.

 

Ironically, Philip, with his entirely different set of loyalties, actually takes more definitive action in response to that crime than Stan does. 

[Umbelina]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Ironically, Philip, with his entirely different set of loyalties, actually takes more definitive action in response to that crime than Stan does. 

To have that happen right before he lets two Russian spies escape is just mind bending to me, not to mention so soon after the FBI deaths.  WHY have the biggest murder sprees in this show's history happen in a shortened season and just before Stan lets them go is something I will never understand. 

Ever.

[Roseanna]

25 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, and I didn't even mention that he walked through the blood of his two agents, and knew their child had seen the brutal murders, or at least the aftermath, of his mother and near-father.   You just don't forget that in one day, or year, or decade.  It was a horrific scene, and he knew all three of them.  That child will never be the same.

Let's not even get into one agent standing at one entrance as their "guard."  For fuck's sake that was so idiotic.

Also, and maybe it's because I have cops in my family, and cop friends?  Cops DO NOT LET COP KILLERS GO.  It's beyond ridiculous that those murders also JUST happened before Stan lets them go.

It's baffling to me how such previously good writers, if OTT at times, let this finale season play out, knowing this was the ending they were going to have.

What cops generally do, can never predict how an individual cop would act.

Also, is Stan really a cop in his heart any more? Or does he see spies as soldiers of their countries? And soldiers who had fought against each other could drink together after the war.

[Roseanna]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

To have that happen right before he lets two Russian spies escape is just mind bending to me, not to mention so soon after the FBI deaths.  WHY have the biggest murder sprees in this show's history happen in a shortened season and just before Stan lets them go is something I will never understand. 

Ever.

Quote

 

We’re rooting for Philip and Elizabeth all along, but in the last few episodes of the series, they commit increasingly brutal, ruthless acts. Were you almost daring viewers to keep sympathizing with them?

Fields: We were just trying to tell the most honest version of their story that we could. And in a way, we were interested in putting the pressure on Elizabeth, and her character, and seeing how that impacted her marriage, and her relationship with her country, and her job, and her family more than anything else. I think that’s what we’ve really been playing with, particularly this season.

 

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/05/the-americans-finale-interview-joe-weisberg-joel-fields
 

That's what the writers say, but I think that there had been better ways to put pressure on Elizabeth than several murders in S6. To me, it was the emotional cost to f.ex. Young Hee that felt the heaviest. 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Roseanna said:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/05/the-americans-finale-interview-joe-weisberg-joel-fields
 

That's what the writers say, but I think that there had been better ways to put pressure on Elizabeth than several murders in S6. To me, it was the emotional cost to f.ex. Young Hee that felt the heaviest. 

Yeah, from season 5 on I pretty much detest the writers, they got too full of themselves.

[Roseanna]

Also, although P&E do all kind of jobs that irl would have done by several persons, putting just Elizabeth to kill Mr and Mrs Teacup who were such minor traitors was an odd decision from the Center when Elizabeth was in such a vital role in the Coup, so it would have been wisest to save her from such a trivial task.