S13.E19: Funeralia

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, takalotti said:

Well, not every decision branches to "life" or "death". Picking peas or carrots as a side dish likely doesn’t have a death outcome either way, so that won’t have an entry in Billie's books. Turning left or right at an intersection could have "nothing special happens" vs. "get into a non-fatal accident" consequences.

But stepping in front of a bus, or choking on a carrot (when a pea might have cleared the windpipe ;P) does.

As @Katy M pointed out above, the butterfly effect and fate don't really belong in the same story, and that's what they are asking us to believe here.

In fact, didn't Fate work hard to correct repercussions from the butterfly effect in S6?

MY HEAD REALLY HURTS!

Edited April 24, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The fact that she's already been killed* by Lucifer, twice, not withstanding, if she is 'always' killed by Sam, then why does it happen more than once? If he's her permanent death, then shouldn't she be dead the first time he kills her? Why are there enough scenarios to warrant an 'always'?  The circular logic (or lack thereof) here makes my head hurt.

*I don't accept that she wasn't dead-dead. It was a resurrection spell, not a keep-you-from-dying-in-the-first-place spell ffs.

LOL that is a really good point. I hadn't thought about that. So either it's not true and Jessica and Billie are messing with them. Or Rowena is immortal LOL.  It's really kind of stupid. And that disappoints me because Steve Yockey has written some of the best episodes of the past two seasons....so what's up with this weirdness other than to set up some big gotcha reveals later.

[belbar]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

LOL that is a really good point. I hadn't thought about that. So either it's not true and Jessica and Billie are messing with them. Or Rowena is immortal LOL.  It's really kind of stupid. And that disappoints me because Steve Yockey has written some of the best episodes of the past two seasons....so what's up with this weirdness other than to set up some big gotcha reveals later.

The longer the story goes, and the more complicated it is, the more flagrant the discrepancies become, IMO. Don't expect any further development out of it.

[ILoveReading]

One of Dean's deaths is by a red-headed witch. 

What if Rowena kills Dean and Sam kills her because of it.

[MysteryGuest]

My guess is it just popped into their heads as they were writing the script...cool, let's have Sam be the only one who can kill Rowena, and their thought process never went any further than that. Canon be damned!   

[SueB]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But stepping in front of a bus, or choking on a carrot (when a pea might have cleared the windpipe ;P) does.

As @Katy M pointed out above, the butterfly effect and fate don't really belong in the same story, and that's what they are asking us to believe here.

In fact, didn't Fate work hard to correct repercussions from the butterfly effect in S6?

MY HEAD REALLY HURTS!

plus

@Katy M comment

Quote

Now that I think of it, it's kind of weird. I mean weirder than I already thought it was.  You wouldn't think you could have fate already marked out AND the butterfly effect.  And, if everybody does have multiples ways and times of dying, then how was Rowena killing them before their time?  Surely her doing it was in one of their books.  And, if her doing it wasn't in one of her books, then surely anybody could end up killing Rowena, since clearly those books aren't infallible.  

My head hurts.  

I think "my head hurts' is sort of what Death is saying. 

 

That the "natural order" (kissing cousin to Fate but not exactly the same?), has been disrupted and Rowena is operating outside the books is what shifts everything so that instead of the natural "butterfly effect" you get and artificial ripple that creates a great deal of chaos (see Titanic).  So yes, someone other than Sam could operate outside the books and kill her.  But Rowena has confidence it'll be Sam because she knows the significance of every answer being Sam.  Rowena is tied into the natural order as a natural witch, as established in S10 -- which is probably why she can violate the natural order after becoming so powerful.  But she puts a great deal of store into these things.  So, I see it giving her comfort.

In terms of who can violate natural order, we know God can violate the natural order but so can a Reaper possessed by Prince of Hell. The boys have been a mostly unwitting party to this multiple times. I think Sam demanding Gabriel do a "reset" at the end of Mystery Spot was more a restoration of natural order but Dean asking Death to get Sam's soul was a violation of it.  Then again, I'm not sure Sam waking around soulless was natural order either. I'm not sure all the Angel 'resets' for Sam & Dean count, but if they did, they were on their way to the Apocalypse.  Personally I think Michael & company pulled the trigger early and that's why Death helped Sam & Dean out.  To get the universe squared away.   

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

plus

@Katy M comment

I think "my head hurts' is sort of what Death is saying. 

 

That the "natural order" (kissing cousin to Fate but not exactly the same?), has been disrupted and Rowena is operating outside the books is what shifts everything so that instead of the natural "butterfly effect" you get and artificial ripple that creates a great deal of chaos (see Titanic).  So yes, someone other than Sam could operate outside the books and kill her.  But Rowena has confidence it'll be Sam because she knows the significance of every answer being Sam.  Rowena is tied into the natural order as a natural witch, as established in S10 -- which is probably why she can violate the natural order after becoming so powerful.  But she puts a great deal of store into these things.  So, I see it giving her comfort.

In terms of who can violate natural order, we know God can violate the natural order but so can a Reaper possessed by Prince of Hell. The boys have been a mostly unwitting party to this multiple times. I think Sam demanding Gabriel do a "reset" at the end of Mystery Spot was more a restoration of natural order but Dean asking Death to get Sam's soul was a violation of it.  Then again, I'm not sure Sam waking around soulless was natural order either. I'm not sure all the Angel 'resets' for Sam & Dean count, but if they did, they were on their way to the Apocalypse.  Personally I think Michael & company pulled the trigger early and that's why Death helped Sam & Dean out.  To get the universe squared away.   

Translation: MY  HEAD HURTS!

:)

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

  Then again, I'm not sure Sam waking around soulless was natural order either.

How? Sam wasn't dead. He was just soulless.

Edited April 25, 2018 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

How? Sam wasn't dead. He was just soulless.

Weird stuff happening again? I didn't write this, @SueB did.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Weird stuff happening again? I didn't write this, @SueB did.

Ack. I don't now what happened. SORRY! I'll correct

[SueB]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

How? Sam wasn't dead. He was just soulless.

 

Fair.  But Death seems to be all about the souls and where they are.  Technically the soul was "safely" in Hell and it was only Sam's body.  But he's definitely an anomalous element.  I would think the "natural order" is 1 soul + 1 body = person, person dies & body decays while soul moves to wherever the Reaper is suppose to take them.  Sam still running around influencing the world without the soul, seems kinda unnatural to me.  

But, that doesn't mean it officially violated the "natural order".  Demon possession doesn't (or Death would have gotten his/her knickers in a twist over that a long time ago).  Neither do Angels taking vessels.  In fact both are part of how God designed it (with rules and all... Death apparently likes rules, I can imagine this keeps Death's head from hurting).

Now add 2 Winchesters + 1 Fallen Angel + 1 Nephalim + 1 Resurrected Winchester; mix with a natural-order defying witch, add some Archangel grace?  Yeah, Billie needs some Alka Seltzer to deal with what the boys are up to these days.  They just kinda roll their own way.  And they don't need no stinkin' rules (plus they make their own badges*).

28 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Translation: MY  HEAD HURTS!

:)

Legit. 

 

*Apologies to the Sierra Madre fans....

Edited April 25, 2018 by SueB

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

plus

@Katy M comment

I think "my head hurts' is sort of what Death is saying. 

 

That the "natural order" (kissing cousin to Fate but not exactly the same?), has been disrupted and Rowena is operating outside the books is what shifts everything so that instead of the natural "butterfly effect" you get and artificial ripple that creates a great deal of chaos (see Titanic).  So yes, someone other than Sam could operate outside the books and kill her.  But Rowena has confidence it'll be Sam because she knows the significance of every answer being Sam.  Rowena is tied into the natural order as a natural witch, as established in S10 -- which is probably why she can violate the natural order after becoming so powerful.  But she puts a great deal of store into these things.  So, I see it giving her comfort.

In terms of who can violate natural order, we know God can violate the natural order but so can a Reaper possessed by Prince of Hell. The boys have been a mostly unwitting party to this multiple times. I think Sam demanding Gabriel do a "reset" at the end of Mystery Spot was more a restoration of natural order but Dean asking Death to get Sam's soul was a violation of it.  Then again, I'm not sure Sam waking around soulless was natural order either. I'm not sure all the Angel 'resets' for Sam & Dean count, but if they did, they were on their way to the Apocalypse.  Personally I think Michael & company pulled the trigger early and that's why Death helped Sam & Dean out.  To get the universe squared away.   

Dean changed Chico's story twice.  9nce when he brought Chuck to Lilith. And when he showed up to Stull.  Changing the story after God wrote it has to be a big order changing thing.   And I am guessing that Dean changed the written story in 11 too.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/22/2018 at 4:05 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I fully admit to seeing a lot of things through my Dean-goggles (#sorrynotsorry), and what struck me about this scene/exchange is that she appealed to Sam for sympathy, but she looked to Dean for approval. I totally agree with your perception of their exchange, but I'd add in Rowena's flash of (?)gratitude when Dean said he did think she could be redeemed.

The same thing happened with Jack.

 

I thought one as the only one that used the term "Dean goggles".

Edited April 25, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[mertensia]

To me these deaths mentioned are the possible ways of death. So, Bob the hold-up guy might die from being shot. Or maybe in a high-speed chase. Or by having a crowbar hit him over the head. But it will never be killed by a great white shark because he's refused to go into the ocean-or visit an aquarium- since he binged-watched the Jaws movies in 1999. And he lives in Nebraska.  So if Rowena conjures up a great white in the local pool to eat Bob, that's disrupting things. 

In fact these deaths Rowena's experienced from Lucifer must have also disrupted the natural order.

I enjoyed the episode.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/24/2018 at 4:37 PM, ILoveReading said:

One of Dean's deaths is by a red-headed witch. 

What if Rowena kills Dean and Sam kills her because of it.

My guess is that Jessica was there to stop Dean from being killed by a red haired witch.  The sam kills Rowena line was a lie designed to prevent Rowena from killing Dean.  And Dean is alive so it worked and will continue to work because Dean is not and never will be a threat to her.

Billie is interested in Dean because he has a purpose. I am not sure Sam has rhat same purpose.  In fact I think from a natural order kind of way Sam was supposed to have died in the Apocalypse.

As I posted elsewhere, I think the Apocalypse was supposed to happen. Dean messed things up by changing Chucks story and showing up at Stull.  Therefore, no Apocalypse, Sam lived, Michael in cage. These 3 things have equaled everything going bonkers ever since, as well as Death's weird relationship with Dean.

 In which he has tried to teach him about the natural order, ordered him to kill Sam, lectured him on choice and butterfly effect, and kept him alive.  

Interesting.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

My guess is that Jessica was there to stop Dean from being killed by a red haired witch.  The sam kills Rowena line was a lie designed to prevent Rowena from killing Dean.  And Dean is alive so it worked and will continue to work because Dean is not and never will be a threat to her.

That would not have worked for me.  After all, I have also just been told (maybe I can't remember if Rowena knew this or not) that I have been killing people ahead of their time and therefore am killing them not in a way that is in their book. Therefore, it seems reasonable that Dean could kill me.  Especially if I removed the only other person who was apparently going to kill me.  It's not like Dean is ambivalent about people who kill his brother.  If I were Rowena and I got that information, I would do my best to kill both of them.  Besides, how would Jessica know that Dean would relay that information to Rowena.  If he were smart, he wouldn't have.

[SueB]

I found it telling that she left Bernard to handle Dean why she killed Sam -- and this was the 'plan' before she met with the boys.  The only way to kill Sam is to take Dean out first.  The reverse is true as well but Sam will at least talk to Rowena, Dean would just spew hate (and she wanted an empathetic ear). Now it's possible Bernard thought Dean would be the better choice due to height (compared to Sam), but I suspect Rowena drove the decison-making bus.  She thought Bernard could take Dean (so wrong!). And I think she overestimated her ability to look Sam in the face and kill him.  

[Castiels Cat]

8 minutes ago, SueB said:

I found it telling that she left Bernard to handle Dean why she killed Sam -- and this was the 'plan' before she met with the boys.  The only way to kill Sam is to take Dean out first.  The reverse is true as well but Sam will at least talk to Rowena, Dean would just spew hate (and she wanted an empathetic ear). Now it's possible Bernard thought Dean would be the better choice due to height (compared to Sam), but I suspect Rowena drove the decison-making bus.  She thought Bernard could take Dean (so wrong!). And I think she overestimated her ability to look Sam in the face and kill him.  

She left Bernard to handle Dean after being informed that Dean was not a threat to her. 

In other words once she knew Dean would not kill her she did not try to kill him.  

I find it odd that Dean was told he might be killed by a red haired witch by Death, is given a reaper monitor, and  is given information rhat effectively gets the red haired witch off of Dean's back.

Curious set of circumstances.

Bernard was no match for Dean.

[SueB]

Just now, Castiels Cat said:

She left Bernard to handle Dean after being informed that Dean was not a threat to her. 

In other words once she knew Dean would not kill her she did not try to kill him.  

I find it odd that Dean was told he might be killed by a red haired witch by Death, is given a reaper monitor, and  is given information rhat effectively gets the red haired witch off of Dean's back.

Curious set of circumstances.

Bernard was no match for Dean.

As they dashed out, it seemed like the "plan" was pre-determined (versus changing based on what she learned).  IDK, I can see your interpretation. 

[Castiels Cat]

15 hours ago, SueB said:

As they dashed out, it seemed like the "plan" was pre-determined (versus changing based on what she learned).  IDK, I can see your interpretation. 

 

15 hours ago, SueB said:

As they dashed out, it seemed like the "plan" was pre-determined (versus changing based on what she learned).  IDK, I can see your interpretation. 

This season has been pretty interesting in regards to layering of subtext, hints, etc.

I don't think Billie just throwing out that line about a red haired witch was throwaway.

I aslso don't think the writers just forgot Rowena died by Lucifer twice.

It is pretty clear Billie doesn't want Dean dead because he needs to do something and he is the only one that can do it.  There is no other reason for a reaper monitor.  Death monitors Death. 

Death follows the rules.  She's a stickler for the rules. Jessica and Billie both spelled tbis out.

They are knocking this season out of the water.

I have been expecting Dean!Michael all along. The rest of it is rather unexpected.

I did you with the idea at the end of season 7 about when Crazy Cas was mumbling asbout them needing a cat and wanting to olay twister or risk (REM The End as we know it reference) that they were hinting that the Apocalypse coukd never had stopped just delayed...

They seem to have circled back to thst big-time with benefits 

[millennium]

Oddly, it was upsetting to me that Sam fired on Rowena, and that Rowena appeared ready to kill Sam.   It felt terribly wrong.

[The Companion]

On 4/19/2018 at 8:16 PM, MysteryGuest said:

This one has me scratching my head, too.  So we're down to 9 angels?  Exactly how did that happen?  Where did they all go?  

They have mentioned their numbers but this was a bit much. So, there are 9 angels but Lucifer found two in the same town a few weeks ago? They have been throwing angels at problems without any reservation and suddenly there are 9?

On 4/19/2018 at 8:39 PM, Bergamot said:

 

Also, Rowena is more fun as a character when she is selfish and scheming.

Agreed. I love Rowena with an agenda. Sometimes it matches theirs, sometimes it doesn't, but she always has an angle. That actually made her a far more interesting baddie to me than most of the characters on this show.

Plus a redemption means she is almost certainly getting killed off. 

Her tango was fantastic.

On 4/20/2018 at 2:03 AM, Castiels Cat said:

Apparently being brought back by  Rowena's wee resurrection spell has the unforeseen consequences of making one seek redemption and love of a sort.  Weird that.  

But it is playing out that way for both Rowena and Ketch it seems.

I sort of love this explanation. Magic comes at a cost. In this case, you come back with a conscience.

On 4/20/2018 at 6:10 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

The reaper said in every iteration of Rowena's death, it's Sam who kills her. Except for the two times Lucifer has already? LOL.

It really was dumb to have Dean tell Rowena about it. It was also dumb to think she'd then just blithely sit there and let Sam cuff her. Oy. 

 

Yep abd yep 

On 4/20/2018 at 6:20 AM, Pete Martell said:

It was probably just a coincidence (I'm sure it was) but Charlie and Naomi returning back-to-back after their deaths got such controversy over misogyny and so on is interesting. The other one I remember getting a lot of criticism on that front is Meg, although I don't think we'll see her again.

It really does feel to me like they think they can just undo what happened by bringing back the characters. Maybe it is just fan service because they are planning the end, but either way they don't get absolution from me.

On 4/20/2018 at 1:09 PM, catrox14 said:

She died.  She resurrected herself with the Resurrection Seal.  If those don't count as deaths for Rowena then Dean has ever died, Sam has never died, Mary has never died.

The show can't have it both ways. 

Yep. Agreed.

On 4/20/2018 at 2:32 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree with all of this. If she had remorse/regret over Gavin, I could maybe accept it. He truly didn't ask for his 'fate' nor deserve it - none of it was his choice, where as her beloved Fergus was willing to sell his soul, not to avoid starving or to find a great love, but for three more inches of willy. Jeebus.

 

I agree. I think it would have made a lot more sense the other way. 

I actually really enjoyed this one despite the pit in my stomach that redemption means Rowena is a goner. I loved the ridiculous tango scene and as much as I am not in favor of a redemption, I thought it was pretty well done. 

The mass casualty line was a little disturbing in light of current events, coincidentally, but this one worked for me.

 

[ahrtee]

@The Companion, reading your comments (and comments on other comments) has reminded me how much I wiped the past few years out of my mind.  I honestly don't remember 95% of what happened in those episodes, much less the parts you mention (and, TBH, don't have enough interest to go back to SuperWiki or even the original comments to remind myself.)  *sigh*  I'm glad to see that you're still watching and at least paying attention.  

[The Companion]

18 hours ago, ahrtee said:

@The Companion, reading your comments (and comments on other comments) has reminded me how much I wiped the past few years out of my mind.  I honestly don't remember 95% of what happened in those episodes, much less the parts you mention (and, TBH, don't have enough interest to go back to SuperWiki or even the original comments to remind myself.)  *sigh*  I'm glad to see that you're still watching and at least paying attention.  

Honestly, when I started this I didn't expect anyone to remember a lot of what I was watching. It has been pretty impressive when people respond as if they saw the episode yesterday.

It's weird to be actually catching up. I was hoping to watch the finale live which, unfortunately, may not be much of a time crunch. I can't believe I have watched 13 seasons! 

[ahrtee]

11 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Honestly, when I started this I didn't expect anyone to remember a lot of what I was watching. It has been pretty impressive when people respond as if they saw the episode yesterday.

It's weird to be actually catching up. I was hoping to watch the finale live which, unfortunately, may not be much of a time crunch. I can't believe I have watched 13 seasons! 

I can't believe you've watched 13 seasons either.  I congratulate you on your stamina!

TBH, I don't know if it's sadder that I *do* remember most of the first 10 seasons as if it were yesterday (granted, I did see many of those eps in the last few days on TNT) or the fact that I can't seem to remember anything of the last 5 seasons except for a few brief scenes here and there.  Part of it is watching the reruns so often, but most I think is the fact that the last few seasons have been so disjointed and uninteresting and pretty much forgettable.  I wish you luck with catching up with the rest of the show, and hope that your comments on the later episodes might remind me of some of the things that I did enjoy in them.  😊