S06.E02: Tchaikovsky

[SusanSunflower]

thank you, it's been bugging me. 

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

So the Mexico guy isn't just recruiting Elizabeth against Arkady, but also Claudia, in a much less drastic way?  Claudia is now also taking orders that by-pass her division head?

That seems to be how it works. The Mexico City guy is working for the head of the KGB, who is a hardliner. He's bypassed Arkady to set up meetings with Elizabeth. But both times it's gone through Claudia (she's the one who gave Elizabeth the assignment to go to Mexico City too). So Claudia's still getting orders through the KGB, and she knows she's not in the same loop as Elizabeth. Does she know they're bypassing Arkady? Seems like she should have some idea it's different since it's maybe coming some different way. But maybe the KGB head specifically chose Claudia and Elizabeth in a similar way that Arkady chose Oleg and Philip. He looked at the history and the files and thought this was somebody who wouldn't question the change as long as it was coming from above.

36 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Thanks for the rest of the details @sistermagpie!  You're great.

Hee-thanks! It's not every day that I think I'm actually following what's going on! I rely on other people to explain the morphine stuff. LOL.

[jjj]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Hee-thanks! It's not every day that I think I'm actually following what's going on! I rely on other people to explain the morphine stuff. LOL.

Hey, everyone has their own specialty area!  I tried to sort out the bathroom caper (even posted the chart), but decided I could do better focusing on what really was being said in the show about the morphine storyline.  The dialogue was sparse but clear, after I listened closely and with the captions on to catch significant words.  

[sistermagpie]

Just now, jjj said:

Hey, everyone has their own specialty area!  I tried to sort out the bathroom caper (even posted the chart), but decided I could do better focusing on what really was being said in the show about the morphine storyline.  The dialogue was sparse but clear, after I listened closely and with the captions on to catch significant words.  

LOL! We all help each other!

I just had another thought about the General here that's kind of cool. It reflects back on the whole Russian vs. Russian plot. The Colonel helped them in the past because he thought it was the right thing to do. Here Elizabeth tried to blackmail him and he said no.

Arkady probably could have threatened Oleg with a little blackmail. He's been investigated for the William thing, but Arkady made it clear that he knew what Oleg did. That's one of the reasons he went to him. But not because his crime made him vulnerable to manipulation (the plan with the General). It was because he saw that he was willing to take a risk for what he thought was right. That's happening in the same episode where Philip's having his metaphorical struggle about things that need his personal commitment. Both Arkady and Oleg made a point of this being a choice. The only thing keeping them from walking away is their conscience.

Not sure quite how that might relate to Paige and Elizabeth and their choices because their psychology seems so bound up with it all differently. But Elizabeth wasn't presented with a similar choice by the hardliners. She wasn't asked to participate the same way and neither was Claudia.

56 minutes ago, jjj said:

I don't know how many episodes Matthew will be directing this season, but I expect he will not be directing episodes where he has a lot to do -- there was very little Philip in this episode, and mainly just limited travel stuff.  

Although he did also direct David Copperfield where had plenty to do. He might have just gotten lucky on this one. (I can totally imagine him laughing at directing that last shot with Elizabeth covered in gore.)

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I wanted to say something about Granny listening only to that music after the war.  I thought that was a nice touch.  After grief. shock, pain, or when I feel despair?  I've, several times, just needed to go read Jane Austen, once I reread every single book, one after another.  It feels like civility and sense returning immersing myself in her worlds.  So I completely understood and sympathized with Granny about that.  For her?  "It was all I could listen to."  I got that.

Me too. Sometimes you need to be reminded of what's good and beautiful. Also, pet videos on YouTube. ;)

[crgirl412]

S06.E02: Tchaikovsky is going to be on at Midnight EST so it will really be 4/8!!

[crgirl412]

21 hours ago, jjj said:

 

Here is what is all means; and I was so confused that I went back to sort it out.  Oddly, I will attribute some compassion to Elizabeth here in addition to pragmatism, but bear with me. 

(1) Erica (artist) needs more and more morphine to control pain, and it will get to a point where it will not work anymore.  The husband (and maybe other health care workers) have no problem giving Erica the morphine ahead of the schedule to stay on top of the pain.  But the more she uses, the more she needs, and she is on a path to a dose that will put her into a coma or kill her.

(2) Separately, the husband is storing little bits of morphine to create a fatal dose when Erica decides she cannot continue.  Elizabeth's job was to find out about this and make sure they do not have that way of killing her, because Elizabeth's job is to keep Erica alive until the summit. The flaw in this plan (Flaw No. 1) is that they could do this with a brand new full prescription of morphine.  Clearly, there are no controls over the husband's access to the morphine, as we saw.  

(3) Elizabeth was actually trying to keep the doses on schedule for two reasons:  (A) they need to keep the pain under control so Erica will not do the fatal overdose and (B) Elizabeth actually does not want her to suffer (this is a whiff of compassion from Elizabeth) while Elizabeth helps keep her alive.  But Elizabeth can't control what the husband or other health care workers will do when Elizabeth is not there.  

(4) Back talking to Claudia, Elizabeth is telling her that "now she will really suffer", because the husband (and maybe other health care workers) are making the doses ultimately less effective by giving them more frequently; meanwhile, Elizabeth will keep Erica alive, but now suffering.  So, weirdly, Elizabeth must keep her alive, but wanted her to suffer as little as possible; and than cannot happen once the morphine tolerance is built up.  Erica will feel better in the short run, but by the time of the summit, the morphine will not be providing pain control.  Claudia was actually being dismissive:  "you only have to keep her alive until the summit" (then we let her die)

(5) The big flaw in this (Flaw No. 2) is that there must be so many health care workers involved, and some temp workers thrown in as well, so Elizabeth has no control over who gives doses on what schedule, or if someone (including Erica) just decides to swallow an entire bottle of morphine when the next prescription is filled.

ETA:  But you know, if the KGB has enough pull to get Elizabeth hired as a home nurse, you'd think they would make sure all the workers were KGB.  It is useless to have one person there a few hours a day, with no control over everyone else dealing with the medication.  However, we all know the KGB only has Elizabeth to cover so many jobs!  (She could do a "Kind Hearts and Coronets" scenario, showing up as four different health care workers with different wigs and eye color and moles!  And one of the disguises would be as a male nurse.)  

It doesn't seem likely that the artist will develop even a tolerance as she probably will not live long enough to develop one. 

 

"In cases of terminal illness, like cancer, we don't tend to worry about tolerance to opioids. The sad fact is that people die with terminal illnesses and so if they come to require high doses of opioids it’s okay. They don’t have long to live."

http://www.instituteforchronicpain.org/treating-common-pain/tolerance-to-opioid-pain-medications

[jjj]

5 hours ago, crgirl412 said:

It doesn't seem likely that the artist will develop even a tolerance as she probably will not live long enough to develop one. 

Most terminal patients don't have a KGB agent making sure they stay alive no matter how agonizing their pain is.  It sounds like the patient and husband are ready to let it go, but they don't know they have to hang in there for 8 or 9 more weeks.  (Again, see the two major flaws I noted in Elizabeth's plan; seems unlikely she will be able to wring out that many more weeks.)  

[Dev F]

On 4/7/2018 at 1:10 PM, Erin9 said:

I feel like every other spy-regardless of whether they were a trainee, a long-term spy or someone P or E pulled in via manipulation clearly understood the dangers and consequences inherent in what they were doing. I don't think Paige gets how serious this is. I can't put my finger on why I feel like she doesn't, but I do. And she should. Elizabeth has left relevant information out, but I think she should know that. It's pretty obvious. Maybe the General's death will bring home the reality of this to her. I don't know.

I definitely think this is key. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I realize that the episode is setting up a dichotomy between Claudia, who's trying to draw Paige into their world in a full and honest way, and Elizabeth, who's impeding her daughter's progress by trying to protect her from the ugliness of their work.

After all, when Claudia talks up Tchaikovsky to Paige, she's not just talking about art or music; she's trying to sell her on the very Russian idea of shared suffering as inspiring and ennobling. "He's one of Russia's greatest composers. His mother died when he was young, and his life was full of loneliness. . . . For a long time after the War, it was the only music I could listen to." In other words, Tchaikovsky's life was hard, and this is what made him great. And when my life was at its most difficult, the one thing that kept me going was his example of the beauty that comes from the darkest places.

And the thing is, we know that Elizabeth has the same stereotypically Russian attitude about the value of nobly enduring suffering. Like Tchaikovsky, Elizabeth spent her childhood struggling with loneliness and watching her mother suffer: "When I was fourteen, my mother had diphtheria. I took care of her for ten months. No one helped me." It's what distinguishes her from Philip, whose response to childhood trauma was not to stoically bear up but to say "That's it -- no more" and beat it to death with a brick. And Elizabeth has always seen a lot of herself in Paige. But now, at the very moment when she needs her daughter to be strong like she is, she's insisting that she should be something else: "She'll have it better. State. Or even if it's the CIA, she will go to work in the morning and she'll come home at night."

And Claudia's response is not to say, Of course, I'll make sure she has a different life than you did, but to reemphasize the connection between mother and daughter: "You'll be fine, Elizabeth. Both of you will." It's after this exchange that Claudia makes her pitch to Paige for Tchaikovsky and suffering, and immediately after Claudia's pitch that Elizabeth makes her argument for honeypotting totally not being a thing, don't be silly. They really are working at cross purposes, and while Claudia's way is probably not going to be great for Paige's moral development, Elizabeth's way is going to ensure that she will never understand her mother's homeland or their shared profession.

[skippylou]

If the artist dies Elizabeth will show up at the funeral, offer sympathy and "call me if you need to talk", if he doesn't call she'll find an excuse to contact him.  It wont be hard for her to get in his pants and keep him interested until the big summit.  

[crgirl412]

6 hours ago, jjj said:

Most terminal patients don't have a KGB agent making sure they stay alive no matter how agonizing their pain is.  It sounds like the patient and husband are ready to let it go, but they don't know they have to hang in there for 8 or 9 more weeks.  (Again, see the two major ut flaws I noted in Elizabeth's plan; seems unlikely she will be able to wring out that many more weeks.)  

That will brutal to watch. 

[jjj]

3 hours ago, crgirl412 said:

That will brutal to watch. 

It reminds me of the Young Hee plot.  It was brutal for Young Hee and even difficult for Elizabeth.  But she put her heart on the stone setting and did it. 

[wendyg]

Going back to the travel agency thing...the internet wasn't around in the late 1980s, but what *was* beginning to appear was "bucket shops" - discount air travel specialist agencies, quite often working with the help of the airline (to sell off tickets for flights that weren't selling well). My reading was that Philip's client had found one of these. (It wasn't always easy; they were limited in how they could advertise, and you often found out about them by word of mouth.) They were the first step towards discount travel and travel generally becoming a commodity rather than a luxury.

[AllyB]

6 hours ago, skippylou said:

If the artist dies Elizabeth will show up at the funeral, offer sympathy and "call me if you need to talk", if he doesn't call she'll find an excuse to contact him.  It wont be hard for her to get in his pants and keep him interested until the big summit.  

I initially assumed that's why Elizabeth offered to help him with the euthanasia. If Elizabeth becomes his partner in what is an act of mercy that requires a massive moral leap and is also a crime, she will be tied to him far more than she is as one of his wife's nurses. They will have forged a bond that few people have and it would be easy for a skilled manipulator like Elizabeth to use that bond as the groundwork to forge an intimacy that makes him feel safe talking to her about his work if she leads him in that direction. Keeping the wife alive and in agony will keep him more closed off from a third party and less willing to be led into talking about his work. Elizabeth and Claudia are missing a trick on this one. Being in his house on a daily basis for the next two months is nothing compared to being his co-conspirator in helping his wife to die.

[qtpye]

On 4/4/2018 at 11:19 PM, chocolatine said:

I already figured he'd be a goner since the viewer advisory promised violence, but yes, Elizabeth dropping to her knees started the countdown.

I don't know which made me happier, the reappearance of the mail robot or the fact that Henry was apparently allowed to go to boarding school after all. Hopefully that means he'll be safe when the sh*t hits the fan with his parents.

I didn't understand that part either. The machine was making loud clicking noises, so not exactly subtle.

I thought it was almost adorable that Elizabeth told Claudia things would be different for Paige; she'll go to work every morning at the State Department or CIA and come home at night. Elizabeth is not naive about most things, but in this case it's like she has blinders on. Then, next thing you know, she involves Paige in a late-night op in which someone gets killed. So much for "different."

When Philip was bellyaching over his incompetent employee, I was screaming at the TV that he should just fire the guy, it's much easier than his old job of killing people.

 

On 4/4/2018 at 11:30 PM, Ellaria Sand said:

Can someone remind me if we have seen McCleesh in a previous season? I felt like I was missing information during that meetup scene in the bookstore.

This majority of this episode was Elizabeth being miserable in every way imaginable. We also saw a confused Stan and a sad, lonely Philip. (I miss line dancing Philip from last week.) 

Paige really has to ask whether spies use sex to get information. Sigh...this isn’t going well. Did she scream “Mom” when she saw Elizabeth covered in blood and guts? 

(@ChromaKelly just answered my question)

Does Elizabeth ever call Henry or visit him?

 

On 4/4/2018 at 11:45 PM, sistermagpie said:

I don't think so. I think we're supposed to think she just somehow managed to convince this guy she works in some other department and likes talking to old guys. Maybe she slept with him once or something.

Not my favorite of episodes. It really suffered for the lack of Oleg and Philip. Seems like this must be Philip's "refusing the call" ep. He got the call from Oleg but he's trying to ignore it. Loved the conversation about him (Oleg), though.

I realized watching Gennady that I know him from this Russian movie and it was hard to not think of him as the ad executive whose long lost daughter showed up to try to get her parents back together. Looks like he can speak English! I did like Stan and Aderholdt interacting.

When Elizabeth said "at least her husband's doing something" about the artist I felt like that was central to Elizabeth's character now because...what is she doing? That is, what's she doing it for? She thinks she's saving the world, but what for since she holds all humanity in contempt? She thinks art's a waste of time, doesn't really respect people who like life are happy for dumb reasons, doesn't value relationships. She's nobly handing off Paige to the woman who tried to break up her family because why shouldn't Paige's main relationship be with a person who gets paid to manipulate her and who doesn't hide the fact that she'd shoot her in the face if necessary? Because the KGB obviously values their sources so much. If Paige gets in trouble it's not like Claudia would stick her neck out for her like Philip did for Martha. In fact, when Elizabeth gave her little "it'll be better for her" speech as if she'd just have a 9 to 5 job, it's funny she didn't think of 9 to 5 Martha. Who the KGB would have let swing if not for Philip. (I like that it seems she's not just dead to life she's almost afraid of life--afraid to even try to draw a cup because art is too much like life.)

Then she brings Paige along on a dangerous op. Honestly, does Elizabeth just not have anyone suitable? If I were Marilyn I'd be seriously looking for a way out.

The Paige/Claudia/Elizabeth scene seemed again sad. I'm sure Paige has sat through plenty of a filmstrips about Tchaikovsky already in school. He's kinda famous. (I wondered if Elizabeth saying Paige didn't like classical music was supposed to echo Elizabeth's disinterest in art at all. Cause it's not like Paige seems like she's interested in any other music.) More importantly was Claudia's waxing rhapsodic about the war. It reminded me of that review that talked about some people just wanting to hang onto their misery. Not to mention, how awkward with them all having to stand there and listen to a record. It just seems like the out of touch club. Paige has no connection to The War at all--and if she did it certainly wouldn't be from the perspective of a Russian who remembered it.

Paige once again behaves as a daughter rather than a spy. Not only does she run toward a gun shot after being told to stay in the car but she runs in yelling, "Mom!" to reveal what a great hostage she'd be if the guy wanted one. Or just a prisoner. Are we actually just supposed to see this as Paige being brave or something? Because in 2 episodes she's made bigger blunders than anybody else I can remember. And that includes Martha who wasn't even trained. Seriously? "Mom?" Remember that inspiring "Keep you kept your cover! You did great!" speech from last week? Maybe just let her keep her leather jacket and pretend she's doing stakeouts from now on.

I do like that the guy didn't give Elizabeth what she wanted. He and Philip were on the same page way back when. He and Elizabeth not so much. The guy wasn't a traitor.

Gotta say, my favorite scene was when Henry called. Talk about an injection of energy and charisma--but sounding natural. It didn't feel over the top to me and it could have, having him clown around. The thing that really struck me about the scene--and I hope this was intended--was that we have all these intense bonding scenes with Paige who allegedly knows the "real" Elizabeth, but they're full of manipulation and lies. Elizabeth lies about using sex, she'll presumably lie about the guy committing suicide. She lied about Paige's mistake, doesn't want Philip to know they talked about her. She can't say anything that isn't selling the Centre. Paige doesn't seem to notice that her mom's a zombie. She's too busy focusing on the Cause and her big important part in it.

Then Henry calls and immediately zeroes in on the fact that his dad's really down, that he sounds like he wants to "jump out a window," that he's at the office long after he should have gone home. Philip can't tell him what's really weighing on him, but he does have a handy metaphorical alternate scenario to explain to him. And Henry once again zeroes in on exactly what Philip's problem is--he feels like he's walked away from his responsibilities. Then he cheered him up with his bad Stavos impression.

I really really hope that's intentional, despite all the lead-up to the season being as per usual about how Paige and Elizabeth are so similar and bonding etc. Because the show has always looked at all sides of how this stuff can bring people together or apart and all and if you put the Centre first, you are putting the relationship second. You're either Gregory or Philip.

Yeah, but Elizabeth says it's a lie book because it's from the US. I honestly think that if the subject of Russia and the KGB came up at dinner Henry would be far more realistic about what the KGB does than Paige. I mean, she wasn't even asking about sex in just a curious sense like, "Does that really work?" or whatever. No, she seems to actually doubt that they would go there or something.

Btw, I think that review that said the Mail Robot was in last week was lying or confusing it for the ticket machine at the travel agency that was teased to sort of look like it. They saved the Mail Robot for this ep and he was great.

 

On 4/5/2018 at 1:26 PM, SusanSunflower said:

yes, and like most undergraduates, even good-student Paige could hardly afford spending hours a day on these "tasks" and "errands" for the Centre and to excel she needs good grades (and as mentioned contacts).   Does super-Paige also have a job and/or how is she paying for that apartment? (I put myself through college and had zero social life because there were no free hours -- it's a bit of a sensitive subject for me.  There was plenty I would have liked to have done, but -- oops -- gotta go to work) 

ETA: You're right, Paige should be being kept as far away as possible from Claudia and on-the-job Elizabeth ... too much risk of becoming some unexplained "known associates"  or stumbling into the glare at the wrong moment.  I know it's "just a TV show" but it's an uncommonly smart one ... Paige has become 2-dimensional rather than a character we care about 

 

On 4/5/2018 at 1:41 PM, benteen said:

Excellent point.  Paige should be spending more of her time at her college (where does she even go anyway?) cultivating potentially valuable contacts and taking advantage of opportunities.  Wasting hours on surveillance is not going to help her.  She should be looking for interning opportunities that will one day lead her to a job at the State Department or the CIA.

 

On 4/5/2018 at 3:28 PM, crashdown said:

Just stepping back from the episode a little to look at big-picture themes, I think that the black/white/grey stuff that was laced throughout the episode was pretty fascinating and key. Obviously, Elizabeth's speech to Paige about how the world can be grey was meant to be a sort of dramatic irony: the audience knows that Elizabeth is by far the most black-and-white character on the show, but Elizabeth herself doesn't seem to realize that. The dying woman asks Elizabeth (who is deeply uncomfortable with looking at herself and the world as art in any way) to "just draw the black parts"--that's pretty much what Elizabeth has been doing ever since she became a spy. And in the last scene--this may be a stretch, but I could include it in a literary analysis if I chose to do so--Elizabeth was literally covered with GREY MATTER. I think this whole final season will be in some sense about Elizabeth's truly coming to accept grey as a possibility, and I'm very interested to see where that's going to lead.

 

On 4/6/2018 at 9:48 AM, lucindabelle said:

Party of one, but I’m finding this season ridiculous. The happy exposition guy in the bookstore was just silly. How many detailed covers are we supposed to believe she has? Even in the 80s academics were not quite that gullible. Academics have records and books published

 

Also, Elisabeth seems to have no redeeming characteristics whatsoever. Which makes her rather on interesting to me.

 

Agree that the rush to show travel agents is ending is premature. I remember when I first became aware of the web and it was not until the early 90s and even in the mid 90s my boss at the theater for which I worked didn’t see the point to having a website.

 

No suspense at all when Elizabeth was facing the guy who is going to shoot her because all I could think of is that while elizabeth could die the season she’s not going to die in episode two so that was a waste of time.

 

I hope it picks up soon. I remember really like this one the show began, but it’s hard not to feel it’s just completely gone off the rails.

 

On 4/6/2018 at 10:50 PM, SusanSunflower said:

yes,they also spend a lot of time apart which may be why they haven't killed each other yet .... because mercifully for the stability of their marriage, they never find time to talk .... ha ha ha ha 

eta;  The "funny" thing about Martha was how superior Elizabeth felt toward her and how confused E. was  about P. attachment ... I remember P. was surprised at how willing to be devoted and "just trust him" Martha was ... it wasn't romantic for him, but I think it was a bit of "how the other half lives" and I suspect her loyalty contrasted with E. -- for all her beauty and intelligence ... and the mission.  (I miss that sort of developed character... I really would like to care about Paige much more than I do, but I have nothing to work with)

 

I really do not know how in the hell E could be so naive. Paige is a very attractive young woman who seems to be as irresistible to men as her mother. The KGB will demand that she sleep with a higher up for a promotion or information as soon as the opportunity presents itself and from what we know about sexual harassment during this time period, it will definitely happen, even if she is in a relatively safe office situation.

Lord, E has become a soulless drudge with no interest then towing the company line. What the hell does Phillip see in her that makes him so damn loyal? He said he fell in love with her at first sight and has never wavered in his feelings. What does he talk about with her beyond "Communism is awesome"? She really is not a very appealing person with her stubborn stupidity? Yeah, E the centre allowed you to get raped at 16 and is more than happy to see you dead rather than "compromised", but they will lovingly take care of your daughter and make sure she is never in danger or emotionally harmed?. The E I met in season 1 was not so one dimensional and had more nuance.     I did appreciate that Phillip is having some business issues and is not just shown to be amazingly successful with no stress. Capitalism is wonderful with its choices but in the United States, there is no safety net. If the market decides that your business model is obsolete, there is little you can do if you do not adjust to the change.     Also, running a business is hard, it just seems easy compared to the spy stuff.                                                

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm just trying to keep the info straight, since, as they go forward, it'll likely get more complicated, but, please confirm where is Claudia getting instructions that she is giving E?  I thought the Centre, but, the instructions E got in Mexico were against the Centre or done behind their back? Is that right? That's why she got the poison pill.    So, are there two or three factions at work that E is dealing with?  Is the Centre in support of Gorbachev or really not on board with what he may do at the summit?  Which faction is Oleg trying to help?

[Dev F]

13 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm just trying to keep the info straight, since, as they go forward, it'll likely get more complicated, but, please confirm where is Claudia getting instructions that she is giving E?  I thought the Centre, but, the instructions E got in Mexico were against the Centre or done behind their back? Is that right? That's why she got the poison pill.    So, are there two or three factions at work that E is dealing with?

There are two factions, but they both have access to Directorate S's communications channels. The reason Elizabeth has to keep what she knows compartmentalized is to prevent it from getting back to the people in Directorate S, like Arkady, who are on the side of the reformers. Likewise, Arkady has to send Oleg to investigate the matter in secret so that his suspicions don't get back his colleagues in Directorate S who are on the side of the hardliners.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Dev F

[SunnyBeBe]

11 minutes ago, Dev F said:

There are two factions, but they both have access to Directorate S's communications channels. The reason Elizabeth has to keep what she knows compartmentalized is to prevent it from getting back to the people in Directorate S, like Arkady, who are on the side of the reformers. Likewise, Arkady has to send Oleg to investigate the matter in secret so that his suspicions don't get back his colleagues in Directorate S who are on the side of the hardliners.

So which one does the Centre support?

[Dev F]

11 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So which one does the Centre support?

Like I said, there are individuals within the Centre who support each side and have access to their communications channels. So the agents in the field could theoretically get word from "the Centre" in support of either position.

Officially, it seems like the reformers are supposed to be in charge, in that Arkady was alerted to the hardliners' plot because they sent out the message for Elizabeth to meet with the general without his approval, which was apparently not kosher. In practice, though, the hardline forces seem to be more powerful, or at least more brazen, in that they're willing to send these unapproved messages to their agents over official channels, whereas Arkady felt the need to enlist Oleg's help under the table.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Dev F

[SunnyBeBe]

Ok.  Thanks.  That helps. 

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

I definitely think this is key. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I realize that the episode is setting up a dichotomy between Claudia, who's trying to draw Paige into their world in a full and honest way, and Elizabeth, who's impeding her daughter's progress by trying to protect her from the ugliness of their work.

 

Where have we seen Claudia trying to draw her in in a full and honest way compared to Elizabeth? Claudia isn't out with her in the field and she's not commenting on what Paige may or may not be doing there either way. But where she is involved, it's not like she's giving her history on the ugliness of the Soviet Union or pulling her aside to tell her she's probably going to have to give some blowjobs. Afternoons with Claudia are even cozier than stakeouts with Elizabeth. I don't think romanticizing suffering counts as showing Paige ugliness in the world. It's putting a positive spin on suffering in the abstract. 

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

I took care of her for ten months. No one helped me." It's what distinguishes her from Philip, whose response to childhood trauma was not to stoically bear up but to say "That's it -- no more" and beat it to death with a brick.

I don't know if that's the big difference there. The murder was probably more traumatizing and uglier. I think their difference is more that Elizabeth holds on to the suffering as a thing she should pass on to her daughter even if she has to create it artificially where Philip says "no more" about his children. It is a very different reaction to suffering, but I don't think either's really more realistic.

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

And Claudia's response is not to say, Of course, I'll make sure she has a different life than you did, but to reemphasize the connection between mother and daughter: "You'll be fine, Elizabeth. Both of you will."

I don't see how "both of you will" is that much more honest than "her life will be different." Both of them are saying that she'll be fine and they have no idea. Elizabeth's just passing through a deeper shade of denial by imagining Paige won't have to do the things she hates doing. Claudia's more realistic in that she doesn't promise that, but she's also not taking the fantasy away from her. Elizabeth cares about Paige suffering more than Claudia does. 

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

They really are working at cross purposes, and while Claudia's way is probably not going to be great for Paige's moral development, Elizabeth's way is going to ensure that she will never understand her mother's homeland or their shared profession.

Claudia's not helping her understand the homeland either, though, really. It seems like Paige has gotten a far more realistic picture of the USA from other Americans than she's getting about the USSR from Claudia.

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So which one does the Centre support?

The Centre is the KGB. The head of the KGB is the one working Elizabeth. Directorate S is a department within the KGB, led by Arkady, who is on the side of the reformers. So there is technically no side that "the Centre" supports because the Centre's made up of many different people--though I would guess that many of the higher ups are on the same side as Elizabeth. Claudia and Elizabeth (and Paige, I guess, because she just agrees with them) or naturally on the side Elizabeth's working for, the side that doesn't want to deal in good faith. Arkady, Oleg and Philip definitely seem like the underdogs here.

Edited April 9, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really do not know how in the hell E could be so naive. Paige is a very attractive young woman who seems to be as irresistible to men as her mother. The KGB will demand that she sleep with a higher up for a promotion or information as soon as the opportunity presents itself and from what we know about sexual harassment during this time period, it will definitely happen, even if she is in a relatively safe office situation.

Lord, E has become a soulless drudge with no interest then towing the company line. What the hell does Phillip see in her that makes him so damn loyal? He said he fell in love with her at first sight and has never wavered in his feelings. What does he talk about with her beyond "Communism is awesome"? She really is not a very appealing person with her stubborn stupidity? Yeah, E the centre allowed you to get raped at 16 and is more than happy to see you dead rather than "compromised", but they will lovingly take care of your daughter and make sure she is never in danger or emotionally harmed?. The E I met in season 1 was not so one dimensional and had more nuance.     I did appreciate that Phillip is having some business issues and is not just shown to be amazingly successful with no stress. Capitalism is wonderful with its choices but in the United States, there is no safety net. If the market decides that your business model is obsolete, there is little you can do if you do not adjust to the change.     Also, running a business is hard, it just seems easy compared to the spy stuff.                                                

I think Russell has done outstanding work, with less than tremendous support from the writers. They really have written E as a pretty uninteresting extreme ideologue, as  extreme ideologues tend to be, but Russell has still managed to imbue the part with some emotional depth. Along with Rhys, she is why I watch, since Allison Wright's departure as a regular character.

[SunnyBeBe]

22 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Where have we seen Claudia trying to draw her in in a full and honest way compared to Elizabeth? Claudia isn't out with her in the field and she's not commenting on what Paige may or may not be doing there either way. But where she is involved, it's not like she's giving her history on the ugliness of the Soviet Union or pulling her aside to tell her she's probably going to have to give some blowjobs. Afternoons with Claudia are even cozier than stakeouts with Elizabeth. I don't think romanticizing suffering counts as showing Paige ugliness in the world. It's putting a positive spin on suffering in the abstract. 

I don't know if that's the big difference there. The murder was probably more traumatizing and uglier. I think their difference is more that Elizabeth holds on to the suffering as a thing she should pass on to her daughter even if she has to create it artificially where Philip says "no more" about his children. It is a very different reaction to suffering, but I don't think either's really more realistic.

I don't see how "both of you will" is that much more honest than "her life will be different." Both of them are saying that she'll be fine and they have no idea. Elizabeth's just passing through a deeper shade of denial by imagining Paige won't have to do the things she hates doing. Claudia's more realistic in that she doesn't promise that, but she's also not taking the fantasy away from her. Elizabeth cares about Paige suffering more than Claudia does. 

Claudia's not helping her understand the homeland either, though, really. It seems like Paige has gotten a far more realistic picture of the USA from other Americans than she's getting about the USSR from Claudia.

The Centre is the KGB. The head of the KGB is the one working Elizabeth. Directorate S is a department within the KGB, led by Arkady, who is on the side of the reformers. So there is technically no side that "the Centre" supports because the Centre's made up of many different people--though I would guess that many of the higher ups are on the same side as Elizabeth. Claudia and Elizabeth (and Paige, I guess, because she just agrees with them) or naturally on the side Elizabeth's working for, the side that doesn't want to deal in good faith. Arkady, Oleg and Philip definitely seem like the underdogs here.

So, is this the position (above in boldface) that supports Gorbachev and having a successful summit in DC? Are the others afraid that he is giving too much away?

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, is this the position (above in boldface) that supports Gorbachev and having a successful summit in DC? Are the others afraid that he is giving too much away?

Yes. Arkady, Oleg and Philip are supporting Gorbachev in general, his attitude as a reformer. The others are afraid of Gorbachev giving too much away--especially Dead Hand. And I think it's implied that even back in the USSR they don't like the reforms he's trying to make back there.

[SunnyBeBe]

I think that I may view E with a little more positivity than a lot of viewers. No doubt, she's hard core, but, I do admire some of her traits.  I'll take it to the thread on E. 

[SusanSunflower]

The mainstream (including at the Centre) support the current regime and Gorbachev in usual unwavering loyalist fashion (even if they privately think his reforms are too much too fast or have other misgivings. )  Gaining control of nuclear weapons programs/arsenals and the "arms race" was generally seen as a good thing by most people because of $$$ and the 40 years of increasing stability under MAD ... 

(The "dead hand" I think may have been rumored rather than being a known "checkmate" and so "giving it up" was probably not much considered (and not seen as a threat to anyone who did not consider that Gorbachev might give it away as a bargaining chip. )   Remember, it's far from certain that Gorbachev WILL give this away, and unless and until he does, Elizabeth's special mission will not be activated.   Which individuals -- exactly -- can be trusted to get-on-board a last-minute hail-Mary assassination of Gorbachev is the sticking point.  Elizabeth's renegade team sees Claudia as iffy in this regard, even if her reaction after-the-fact would probably be predictably stalwart.   Similarly, Claudia will reliably support Elizabeth in this secret mission, because she is, in fact, reliably stalwart. 

eta:  Is the artist/patient's husband supposed to somehow provide Elizabeth some early-warning about Dead Hand?  This seems to be a routine unrelated pre-summit, Centre approved surveillance

Edited April 9, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

Someone elsewhere just pointed out to me an obvious parallel I missed--maybe others here didn't. We've got Philip with his story about handing off "his" client and that ending badly. Then we've got Stan who has to come back to deal with Gennady because he can't hand him off.

What I didn't connect it to is Elizabeth telling Claudia that if something happens to her Claudia can "finish" Paige. Elizabeth, too, is trying to tell herself she can hand off her daughter to someone else and hey, Paige has "taken to her" so she'll be fine. Everything in this episode said no, she won't be fine. However much Paige is into Claudia, her entire relationship to this stuff is about Elizabeth. If she was gone the whole thing would be a completely different experience for Paige and no way would Claudia be any kind of substitute. You think that client was disappointed with Stavos after Philip, that's nothing compared to Claudia replacing Elizabeth as Paige's mother and handler.

[SusanSunflower]

and that's when Paige would learn that there's no resigning and going back to her old life ... would she submit quietly or would she need to be terminated? 

Spoiler

Holly Taylor's inadvertant spoiler in this regard oddly suggests neither ... as if the Centre vanished with the fall of the USSR leaving Paige free as a bird -- or -- there was no such confrontation/fork in the road and it was somehow otherwise resolved. 

[jjj]

6 hours ago, AllyB said:

I initially assumed that's why Elizabeth offered to help him with the euthanasia. If Elizabeth becomes his partner in what is an act of mercy that requires a massive moral leap and is also a crime, she will be tied to him far more than she is as one of his wife's nurses. They will have forged a bond that few people have and it would be easy for a skilled manipulator like Elizabeth to use that bond as the groundwork to forge an intimacy that makes him feel safe talking to her about his work if she leads him in that direction. Keeping the wife alive and in agony will keep him more closed off from a third party and less willing to be led into talking about his work. Elizabeth and Claudia are missing a trick on this one. Being in his house on a daily basis for the next two months is nothing compared to being his co-conspirator in helping his wife to die.

No, the conversation with the husband was just a pretext to find out how he was planning to help his wife die.  That was a fake conversation -- the real conversation was with Claudia, when they were saying they know they have to keep her alive for another 8 or 9 weeks, no matter how much she is suffering. 

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, jjj said:

No, the conversation with the husband was just a pretext to find out how he was planning to help his wife die.  That was a fake conversation -- the real conversation was with Claudia, when they were saying they know they have to keep her alive for another 8 or 9 weeks, no matter how much she is suffering. 

Much as Elizabeth herself is walking around with a suicide pill probably thinking she just has to get through the same 9 weeks before she'll hand off Paige to Claudia and die. She can suffer for now...

[jjj]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Much as Elizabeth herself is walking around with a suicide pill probably thinking she just has to get through the same 9 weeks before she'll hand off Paige to Claudia and die. She can suffer for now...

Oh, that puts a very interesting twist on the conversation with Claudia, if the subtext is Elizabeth suffering for a few more weeks, also.  I have to say that the blocking for that conversation with Claudia was very unusual.  When have we ever seen Elizabeth slouched down on a sofa, saying deep things to Claudia?  (I count "now she's really gonna suffer" as deep for Elizabeth, not known for her observational ability on others' suffering.)  That whole scene had kind of a psychiatrist's couch and session feeling to it.  (Elizabeth not quite lying on the couch, but kind of, and Claudia across the room, responding.   No eye contact.)

Edited April 9, 2018 by jjj

[SunnyBeBe]

26 minutes ago, jjj said:

No, the conversation with the husband was just a pretext to find out how he was planning to help his wife die.  That was a fake conversation -- the real conversation was with Claudia, when they were saying they know they have to keep her alive for another 8 or 9 weeks, no matter how much she is suffering. 

 Was this done so that if Husband thinks that he can avoid having to assist in his wife's death he might see that as more appealing and just leave the professional heallthcare worker in charge of it. Thus, putting a moratorium on his wife's death.  Though, 2 months doesn't sound like long, but, when a person  you love is writhing in pain, an hour it seems like an eternity.  I don't know how they'll make it. 

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Where have we seen Claudia trying to draw her in in a full and honest way compared to Elizabeth? Claudia isn't out with her in the field and she's not commenting on what Paige may or may not be doing there either way. But where she is involved, it's not like she's giving her history on the ugliness of the Soviet Union or pulling her aside to tell her she's probably going to have to give some blowjobs. Afternoons with Claudia are even cozier than stakeouts with Elizabeth. I don't think romanticizing suffering counts as showing Paige ugliness in the world. It's putting a positive spin on suffering in the abstract.

Well, I mean, Claudia isn't going to tell Paige that the Soviet Union really sucks, because she herself doesn't believe that. But talking about her own personal history of suffering during one of the most trying times in Russian history (an event American students tend to know fairly little about aside from the fact that Russia beat Germany) and how she dealt with it by leaning on the example of a particular historical figure from Russia's past doesn't seem particularly abstract to me.

Now, I don't know that I would be so willing to lean on this interpretation if not for the fact that Claudia's actions are directly juxtaposed to Elizabeth's -- to the point that the music from Claudia's "lesson" continues to play over Elizabeth's in the next scene. And the fact that Claudia's lesson gives the episode its title, which the writers have always used to highlight the overarching theme that unites all the episode's storylines. I'm willing to entertain other possible explanations for the juxtaposition and the overarching theme, but I think my reading works pretty well.

Quote

I don't know if that's the big difference there. The murder was probably more traumatizing and uglier. I think their difference is more that Elizabeth holds on to the suffering as a thing she should pass on to her daughter even if she has to create it artificially where Philip says "no more" about his children. It is a very different reaction to suffering, but I don't think either's really more realistic.

But beating the bully to death was an acute trauma, which Phil deliberately resorted to despite its ugliness because he found the prospect of prolonged suffering even more unendurable. That's exactly what I'm suggesting is the difference between him and Elizabeth.

And I would agree that Elizabeth sees suffering as a thing she had to pass on to her daughter -- which is why it's so notable that in this episode she chooses instead to obfuscate the unpleasantness associated with their line of work.

Quote

I don't see how "both of you will" is that much more honest than "her life will be different." Both of them are saying that she'll be fine and they have no idea. Elizabeth's just passing through a deeper shade of denial by imagining Paige won't have to do the things she hates doing. Claudia's more realistic in that she doesn't promise that, but she's also not taking the fantasy away from her.

I think it's slightly more interconnected than just different layers of denial. Elizabeth is terrified that her life as a spy is inevitably going to lead to her destruction. (That's basically what Philip told her last week, that "it is finally getting to you, after all these years" regardless of how amazing she is, and the only way out is to quit like he did.) So the only way Liz is able envision a better future for her daughter is by imagining that Paige won't have to have the same kind of life. And Claudia's response is not to reassure her that Paige will have a different life but to argue that she doesn't need to have a different life, because no matter how rough things seem at the moment, even Elizabeth herself will be able to get through them.

[jjj]

11 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 Was this done so that if Husband thinks that he can avoid having to assist in his wife's death he might see that as more appealing and just leave the professional heallthcare worker in charge of it. Thus, putting a moratorium on his wife's death.  Though, 2 months doesn't sound like long, but, when a person  you love is writhing in pain, an hour it seems like an eternity.  I don't know how they'll make it. 

Indeed.  That is why I outlined above the two big flaws in the Claudia/KGB plan to keep her alive for two more months.  The flaws are much more substantial than the plan, which probably looks fine on paper, but highly improbable in real life. 

[sistermagpie]

42 minutes ago, Dev F said:

And Claudia's response is not to reassure her that Paige will have a different life but to argue that she doesn't need to have a different life, because no matter how rough things seem at the moment, even Elizabeth herself will be able to get through them.

 

42 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Well, I mean, Claudia isn't going to tell Paige that the Soviet Union really sucks, because she herself doesn't believe that. But talking about her own personal history of suffering during one of the most trying times in Russian history (an event American students tend to know fairly little about aside from the fact that Russia beat Germany) and how she dealt with it by leaning on the example of a particular historical figure from Russia's past doesn't seem particularly abstract to me.

But I guess to me this barely fits the definition of "telling her the truth" as opposed to Elizabeth--Elizabeth who in this episode winds up facing Paige covered in blood. Of course Elizabeth is also the one lying to her flat-out--hiding the consequences of her actions and murdering people off-screen, etc. But it seems like if Claudia is supposed to be the one who's telling her the truth and Elizabeth is undermining her Claudia ought to be doing more than greeting Paige with twinkly eyes and grandma hugs and pretty music that a lonely guy wrote and vague references to how it helped her after the war that Paige safely missed by being born when she was but doesn't sound that bad in this conversation. 

Elizabeth's "she'll be fine because her life will be easier" contains a more blatant lie than Claudia's "you'll both be fine," but both of them are just blandly optimistic claims based on nothing. The only person who's really faced this question with blunt honesty was Philip who did tell Elizabeth flat out that she was a fool to think Paige would have some easy paper-pushing job. (He's also the person telling Elizabeth she's falling apart and it shows.) Claudia doesn't--and why would she? Claudia's trying to lure Paige into the job 100%. She doesn't want to hit Paige in the face with ugly truths that might put her (or Elizabeth) off any more than Elizabeth does, it seems to me. I just can't think of anything that Claudia's said that directly describes the bad things about spy life or contradicts any of Elizabeth's lies at all. 

[Umbelina]

Claudia's probably seen more spies come and go, or break, or thrive, or die, or have to be nursed through things than Elizabeth can even imagine.  Hell, she's probably even killed a few of them herself if it was needed.

Yes, part of her job is to be a shrink for her spies, and lie to them, and tell them all will be well.  We call her "Granny" but there is nothing really grandmotherly about that woman.  She's from Stalin times, and if people think things are bad now (people here meaning her current group of spies she's managing) then she could easily roll her eyes when they aren't looking.  She actually survived a war where millions and millions of her countrymen died, civilians as well as soldiers.  She's lived through Stalin's insane purges of professional people, the educated, the jews, as well as anybody else Stalin suddenly decided needed to die.  She's watched people disappear to the Gulags.  She would actually read Solzhenitsyn's books. 

She's no "granny" to have survived all of that, and add to that she's a very trusted and important member of the KGB to this day. 

"Granny" would have stories to tell, she's probably lived a life that would make Elizabeth's and Philip's look downright cushy.

I do agree though, that Granny is trying to bring Russia itself into this.  The cooking, the movie, the music, bringing up the war.  Those were some of her attempts, and I think it's safe to think there have been others.

Elizabeth's response?  "Wow, Moscow has changed."  It doesn't seem like Elizabeth took any of the hints Granny has been dropping to lure Paige in to the cause a bit more.  It doesn't really matter though, Paige doesn't give a shit about Russia or any cause, her sole desire seems to be becoming Elizabeth's mini-me.

ETA

I bet Granny has already figured out the KGB is fracturing on the arms control issue, and that a Coup is certainly possible against Gorbachev.  Her response to all of that, in my imaginings anyway, would be this.  Survive it.  She's survived worse, and I think, rather than give a shit which side wins?  She just wants to survive that too.   She strikes me as a pragmatist.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Umbelina

[qtpye]

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

I think Russell has done outstanding work, with less than tremendous support from the writers. They really have written E as a pretty uninteresting extreme ideologue, as  extreme ideologues tend to be, but Russell has still managed to imbue the part with some emotional depth. Along with Rhys, she is why I watch, since Allison Wright's departure as a regular character.

I agree, she deserves much better writing then they are giving her. It is almost like they think that showing her as a badass that can easily take down any guy makes up for sacrificing her character for plot purposes.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

 

But I guess to me this barely fits the definition of "telling her the truth" as opposed to Elizabeth--Elizabeth who in this episode winds up facing Paige covered in blood. Of course Elizabeth is also the one lying to her flat-out--hiding the consequences of her actions and murdering people off-screen, etc. But it seems like if Claudia is supposed to be the one who's telling her the truth and Elizabeth is undermining her Claudia ought to be doing more than greeting Paige with twinkly eyes and grandma hugs and pretty music that a lonely guy wrote and vague references to how it helped her after the war that Paige safely missed by being born when she was but doesn't sound that bad in this conversation. 

Elizabeth's "she'll be fine because her life will be easier" contains a more blatant lie than Claudia's "you'll both be fine," but both of them are just blandly optimistic claims based on nothing. The only person who's really faced this question with blunt honesty was Philip who did tell Elizabeth flat out that she was a fool to think Paige would have some easy paper-pushing job. (He's also the person telling Elizabeth she's falling apart and it shows.) Claudia doesn't--and why would she? Claudia's trying to lure Paige into the job 100%. She doesn't want to hit Paige in the face with ugly truths that might put her (or Elizabeth) off any more than Elizabeth does, it seems to me. I just can't think of anything that Claudia's said that directly describes the bad things about spy life or contradicts any of Elizabeth's lies at all. 

This is what is so ridiculous.  They have made E so extreme that there is no way a person with intelligence or intellectual curiosity would believe the things she does.  It actually makes her seem very stupid and there was no reason to do that. We saw from previous seasons that she was more nuanced and not a bigger robot then mail bot.

[SusanSunflower]

It occurred to me that Elizabeth will spend the rest of her life in jeopardy whether or not it becomes "necessary" to kill Gorbachev, just for having been a member of a tiny cadre who developed a contingency plan to do so .... Gorbachev didn't die (and I assume the plan would have been to make it look like a natural death or something that could pass as a natural death -- rather than some public shooting) -- but that doesn't remotely mean that Elizabeth (and others) would survive the plot being somehow discovered ...   I'd imagine most (sane) people would have opposed decapitating the regime ...

Imagine trying to explain to Paige that Elizabeth was killed because she plotted to kill Gorbachev ...  

Although Yeltsin didn't become President until after the fall of the USSR, he is probably due to make an appearance ... (wiki)

""During the late 1980s, Yeltsin had been a candidate member of the Politburo, and in late 1987 tendered a letter of resignation in protest. No one had resigned from the Politburo before. This act branded Yeltsin as a rebel and led to his rise in popularity as an anti-establishment figure.""  

Can't wait to see all the characters react to that .... 

[AllyB]

2 hours ago, jjj said:

No, the conversation with the husband was just a pretext to find out how he was planning to help his wife die.  That was a fake conversation -- the real conversation was with Claudia, when they were saying they know they have to keep her alive for another 8 or 9 weeks, no matter how much she is suffering. 

I know it was but actually helping Glenn to euthanise his wife would be the better 'play' as it would create a bond Elizabeth could manipulate to gain information from him far more easily than she could as one of a team of nurses.

[sistermagpie]

43 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I bet Granny has already figured out the KGB is fracturing on the arms control issue, and that a Coup is certainly possible against Gorbachev.  Her response to all of that, in my imaginings anyway, would be this.  Survive it.  She's survived worse, and I think, rather than give a shit which side wins?  She just wants to survive that too.   She strikes me as a pragmatist.

Though I would bet that she thinks the hardliners are more likely to win because she's just not the type to believe in fresh-faced reformers, imo. I can't imagine Claudia not automatically thinking that, yes, of course you should assume the other side is lying at all times and you need to protect yourself through strength. She's kind of said as much. That doesn't mean she'd want to light herself on fire for that principle, but I think that's her instinct.

27 minutes ago, qtpye said:

This is what is so ridiculous.  They have made E so extreme that there is no way a person with intelligence or intellectual curiosity would believe the things she does.  It actually makes her seem very stupid and there was no reason to do that. We saw from previous seasons that she was more nuanced and not a bigger robot then mail bot.

I feel like they're using the time jump to cover everything, which can be frustrating. They ended last season with Elizabeth telling Philip to quit and she'd just go on alone. Now we're supposed to see this as the direct result of that. She's spent 3 years doing it alone and it's made her...this. We're just supposed to assume that little by little she stopped sharing things with Philip (either by choice or because she was being ordered to) and became the woman she probably would have been if she'd never been married or whatever. She's exactly the person she warned Tuan about last season, the person who wouldn't survive.

But they're doing it by just picking up the needle and dropping it down later into the record (to use an 80s technology metaphor) so we're not seeing all those tiny incremental changes. We're just meeting her on the edge of suicide, basically. She seems to be saying good-bye to Philip, she's mostly just still preparing Paige as a spy and telling Claudia to finish her up, she presumably believes she's already handed Henry over to Philip for finishing. But we don't know exactly what went into this. It just seems like she's ashamed to look at any symbols of anything else, like art or her husband or her son. (Her daughter's okay because she's validating all her choices.) Though she's not really looking at Paige either. If Elizabeth planned to live she ought to be fighting to protect Paige, not just telling herself a comforting lie so she can shuffle off in peace.

Philip, meanwhile, seems to have just been napping like Sleeping Beauty dreaming that he's his cover. He's the ultimate "sleeper" spy. (People often referred to P&E that way but they were never sleepers--they were hyperactive!) But again we have to fill in the blanks about how he made peace with his daughter's disappointing decision. He's said that Elizabeth's gotten much worse recently--so if we saw them a couple of months ago would they not be this silent? 

I continue to hope, as I have for a long time now, that Philip's evolution, particularly with a 3 year nap, will give him the strength and focus to finally do something--especially now that he's plugged into the future where Elizabeth is not.

11 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

It occurred to me that Elizabeth will spend the rest of her life in jeopardy whether or not it becomes "necessary" to kill Gorbachev, just for having been a member of a tiny cadre who developed a contingency plan to do so .... Gorbachev didn't die (and I assume the plan would have been to make it look like a natural death or something that could pass as a natural death -- rather than some public shooting) -- but that doesn't remotely mean that Elizabeth (and others) would survive the plot being somehow discovered ...   I'd imagine most (sane) people would have opposed decapitating the regime ...

Presumably Philip would be in similar trouble if he helps Oleg. (Oleg himself said flat out that if he's caught he'll be shot and he's right.) I guess Philip, like Oleg, is working without even the usual protections of Directorate S that Elizabeth still has.

Edited April 9, 2018 by sistermagpie

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, AllyB said:

I know it was but actually helping Glenn to euthanise his wife would be the better 'play' as it would create a bond Elizabeth could manipulate to gain information from him far more easily than she could as one of a team of nurses.

Yeah, plus, I would imagine that E wants the job done right. If anyone gets suspicious and starts snooping around. I would think E does NOT want anyone snooping around the matter, after she's been in that house and caring for the family. 

[SusanSunflower]

huh?  from wikipedia:  

Quote

Arkady, now deputy chief of Directorate S and a Gorbachev supporter, recruits Oleg, now married and out of the KGB, to travel to the US and ask Philip to uncover (and possibly stop) Elizabeth's unapproved new mission. 

Like Nina before him, Oleg is on borrowed time and has almost used up his 9 lives and second chances, (if he's caught before the resolution of the summit) but wouldn't working at the behest of Arkady/Directorate S, and saving the day by uncovering the evil plot, protect him .after the fact once back in Moscow.  The plot would remain a deeply kept secret (the very idea of such a plot being being "unthinkable")  ...  I'm not sure what fate would befall Philip,although concealing information to "save" Elizabeth would be (death sentence) compromising. 

I think the likelihood of Elizabeth telling Phillip anything (unless the plot is activated) is almost nonexistent.  As I said last episode, "I could tell you but then I"d have to kill you." for realz.  Elizabeth could unburden herself to Phillip wrt the artist and that mission at any time without ever mentioning the dead-hand plot, since (I think) surveillance and intelligence gather wrt the Summit is a known shared major KGB mission.   Similarly she could probably "share" issues wrt Paige if she were willing to admit there were any.  (Philip is likely to keep pressing but I doubt E. going to vomit up all of her problems to him, rather than giving him real "stuff" to satisfy his curiosity and maybe send him into Mr. fix-it mode. 

What happens now to DeadHand, Elizabeth having failed to get the "lithium-based radiation sensor" from General Rennhull is anyone's guess.  Wiki says they are related, but the linkage between the two is unclear to me except they said so  ... He didn't have the sensor on him when he died and nothing I can see to link his death to it, even if the death is considered highly suspicious and even summit related.  Elizabeth making another secret emergency trip might make some watchers suspicious of a link between the death and the meeting, but not what link and probably not ring bells with Phillip or Oleg about "the nature of the plot" 

eta:  Certainly Philip and Oleg could be in great danger from Elizabeth and the other members of the dead-hand cadre if their mission were suspected. 

Edited April 9, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Like Nina before him, Oleg is on borrowed time and has almost used up his 9 lives and second chances, (if he's caught before the resolution of the summit) but wouldn't working at the behest of Arkady/Directorate S, and saving the day by uncovering the evil plot, protect him .after the fact once back in Moscow.

Not at all. The head of the KGB is Arkady's boss and he's the one who's giving Elizabeth orders. Oleg isn't even in the KGB but he's in the US on a rogue spy mission trying to steal info from Directorate S/the KGB. Neither he nor Philip are KGB agents right now, spying on top level KGB people. Arkady has no authorization for the mission with Oleg and Philip, which is why he went outside the KGB. It's basically two civilians spying on the KGB. The chances that they'd be able to plead the their case to Gorbachev himself and be seen as the plucky heroes they are is probably very unlikely.

At least that's how it seems to me--and Oleg said as much himself to Philip, that if he's caught he'll be shot, and now Philip has to decide whether or not to take the same risk.

 

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

I think the likelihood of Elizabeth telling Phillip anything (unless the plot is activated) is almost nonexistent. 

I'm not so sure. Philip is Elizabeth's one rebellion and she's always been able to trust him to protect her. And even if she doesn't tell him everything completely she might hint enough that Philip can figure it out, knowing what he already knows. Also there's the fact that Philip is a spy, so he might not just be pushing her to open up to him.

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

What happens now to DeadHand, Elizabeth having failed to get the "lithium-based radiation sensor" from General Rennhull is anyone's guess.  Wiki says they are related, but the linkage between the two is unclear to me except they said so  ...

You mean the link between DeadHand and the lithium radiation sensor? It seemed like it was part of a general rogue approach to the summit. At first it seemed like it was just "find out if Gorbachev is planning to trade DeadHand and tell us" but now it's also "let's try to steal whatever weapons we can from the Americans because that's the way we should be approaching this summit." Iow, the sabotage of the summit is getting broader and Elizabeth's doing it and they're hoping she'll kill herself if there's any problem to save them the trouble.

Of course I could be wrong about that, but that was my reading of it.

Edited April 10, 2018 by sistermagpie

[SusanSunflower]

It would seem then that Oleg and Phillip's mission is unsurvivable  ... 

The cadre that Elizabeth is part of AFAICT is very small ... it would be relatively easy to eliminate all members and all reference to that traitorous conspiracy. 

Oleg and Phillip are screwed if they succeed in identifying the conspiracy/cadre/dissident conspiracy, and also, as you say, quite likely if they fail (even if the trigger for the assassination, successful or failed never activated) 

Edited April 10, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Sarah 103]

On 4/7/2018 at 5:31 PM, sistermagpie said:

Arkady probably could have threatened Oleg with a little blackmail. He's been investigated for the William thing, but Arkady made it clear that he knew what Oleg did. It was because he saw that he was willing to take a risk for what he thought was right. That's happening in the same episode where Philip's having his metaphorical struggle about things that need his personal commitment. Both Arkady and Oleg made a point of this being a choice. The only thing keeping them from walking away is their conscience.

Not sure quite how that might relate to Paige and Elizabeth and their choices because their psychology seems so bound up with it all differently. But Elizabeth wasn't presented with a similar choice by the hardliners. She wasn't asked to participate the same way and neither was Claudia.

I don't think it directly relates. I think it's a parallel/contrast. Philip and Oleg are one side. They are not driven by ideology. Paige and Elizabeth are driven by ideology and the idea of a cause. 

On 4/9/2018 at 2:49 PM, Dev F said:

Well, I mean, Claudia isn't going to tell Paige that the Soviet Union really sucks, because she herself doesn't believe that. But talking about her own personal history of suffering during one of the most trying times in Russian history (an event American students tend to know fairly little about aside from the fact that Russia beat Germany)

I'm surprised this didn't get more play in the series. It seemed like something Elizabeth or Claudia might have said. The idea that at one point the Soviet Union was an ally and that they helped defeat Germany/Hitler/Nazis-one of the biggest evils of the 20th Century. The purpose would be to make the Soviet Union seem like the good guys and like less of a big bad to Paige. 

[jjj]

It is amusing that this was generally considered to be a "slow" episode, yet has created so much commentary!  This is the only television show I watch, aside from news, and I think I spend more time on this thread than watching the actual show.

(It occurred to me today that I would watch a road show with Phillip and Oleg, visiting park benches around the world.)

Edited April 11, 2018 by jjj

[Umbelina]

Well, except the USSR was perfectly fine with sitting out the war completely and letting all the capitalists destroy and bankrupt each other.  Stalin signed an agreement with Hitler that not only divvied up Poland, but each promised not to go to war with the other.  Of course Claudia could certainly leave that part out, and probably would, it's not like Paige would do her own research anyway.

Hitler broke that pact and sneak-attacked Russia, which was partially unprepared for war at that point, because Stalin was sure Hitler would leave Russia alone.  Elizabeth's home town was one of the first occupied.

That said, Russia's incredible terrors and sacrifices after that, to defeat Germany, and eventually leave them crippled, probably did end the European part of the war.  Of course they also lost many more men to claim the uranium mines in East Germany, and pretty much were at odds with their allies from that moment on.

Quote

 

The Numbers
The populations of the United States and the USSR were about the same, 130,000,000, when both nations went to war within six months of each other in 1941. To Americans, we were sending our boys to fight a foreign war that we'd never experience. To the Soviets, it was an up front and personal war of monumental savagery. America would lose slightly more than 400,000 soldiers (killed or missing) and almost no civilians during World War II and the USSR, depending on which historian you believe, would lose at least 11,000,000 soldiers (killed and missing) as well as somewhere between 7,000,000 and 20,000,000 million of its civilian population during the Great Patriotic War.

http://www.eisenhowerinstitute.org/about/living_history/wwii_soviet_experience.dot

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Umbelina

[EtheltoTillie]

On 4/9/2018 at 9:39 PM, SusanSunflower said:

It would seem then that Oleg and Phillip's mission is unsurvivable  ... 

The cadre that Elizabeth is part of AFAICT is very small ... it would be relatively easy to eliminate all members and all reference to that traitorous conspiracy. 

Oleg and Phillip are screwed if they succeed in identifying the conspiracy/cadre/dissident conspiracy, and also, as you say, quite likely if they fail (even if the trigger for the assassination, successful or failed never activated) 

I'm not very good at this stuff, but aren't Oleg and Phillip on what we now know to be the "winning" side?  Would that help them?

[qtpye]

In this forum of very intelligent people and posts allow me to inject this moment of silliness.

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Well, except the USSR was perfectly fine with sitting out the war completely and letting all the capitalists destroy and bankrupt each other.  Stalin signed an agreement with Hitler that not only divvied up Poland, but each promised not to go to war with the other.  Of course Claudia could certainly leave that part out, and probably would, it's not like Paige would do her own research anyway.

 

I think they used this history in the scene with Betty. She said her husband fought in WWII and liberated camps. I think that was one of the many anvils dropped that Betty was SO MUCH LIKE ELIZABETH and therefore was difficult to kill.

But I don't now if Paige would care that much. It seems like the only thing that really inspires her is her mother. The alleged fight to save the world is awesome, but it's not like she's going to research that herself either.

2 hours ago, GussieK said:

I'm not very good at this stuff, but aren't Oleg and Phillip on what we now know to be the "winning" side?  Would that help them?

Probably not before the summit, I would think. Especially since Elizabeth's opinion--as always--has the weight of the Centre behind it while Philip and Oleg are really cut off. Oleg has no diplomatic protection. Philip doesn't have the Centre's resources at his disposal. The power of inertia is against them.