S13.E14: Good Intentions

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

As I said on the other site, I think Cas has done a little Sam 'imprinting' and is solely focused on "whatever it takes".

We've seen this Castiel before, too. I mentioned either this thread or another, that Castiel here reminded me of Castiel in "Mommy Dearest" who fried Lenore to "move things along." However whether that's a good thing or not - considering what happened with Castiel in season 6 in that he wasn't in the best place - is another thing altogether.

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

We've seen this Castiel before, too. I mentioned either this thread or another, that Castiel here reminded me of Castiel in "Mommy Dearest" who fried Lenore to "move things along." However whether that's a good thing or not - considering what happened with Castiel in season 6 in that he wasn't in the best place - is another thing altogether.

Don't forget season 6.  Everything Cas did that season was to prevent the Apocalypse ... And he did some very dark things with even worse results and justified it all  because his intentions were good.

I am disturbed.  I see Cas and Dean going down dark paths and Sam starting to be horrified yet unable to stop the madness.  If the show continues this things will get darker and interesting.

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/4/2018 at 4:55 AM, Jakes said:

Again this is just Cas going back to season 4 warrior mode added to what Dabb has emphasized the last couple of years with Cas...how being with the Winchesters has effected his emotional growth and connection to them and his protection of them and now Mary and Jack.  He was that way when he "killed" Billy and how emotional he was afterwards(aka before Jack).  There really was no hint of pleasure or sadism in killing Donatello.  So this is more like your #1 except Jack is not the cause...Cas just is dedicated in warrior protective mode not only for Jack but the Winchesters too and he has been like that recently even BEFORE Jack--so Jack isn't altering him...it's character growth for Cas and it's up to everyone to judge for themselves if it's for the good or bad or a mixture,  To me it's all good right now, as long as Cas doesn't spin out of control later--which imo he definitely has not done so yet.

I could buy this of they had not wasted so much time on POOG.

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/4/2018 at 5:52 PM, SueB said:

I don’t think what AU Micheal was doing is the same as Cas & Donatello.  First, Michael was in no danger as Mary had no power.  And apparently there was no issue with Lucifer and Jack.  

OTOH Donatello was clear that the procedure could fry both he and Cas’s brain.  I DO think it’s possible that Cas didn’t just take a peek at the info but also removed it from his mind. Because he didn’t want to leave Donatello around to tell Asmodeus how to open the rift.  Now THAT (which might have happened) appears to be more than what Michael was doing. But again, Cas was also risking his own mind to get this data. That changes it from just doing something to Donatello and controlling the outcome and taking a risky action that resulted in Donatello’s state. 

Im reminded of Sam in S3. He grew colder as Dean’s deadline approached and he was desperate to save him.  I think cas has developed an obsession to save the Winchester’s and Jack.

Bottom Line: Only an evil person would deliberately render Donatello brain dead. I think Cas wanted the data as was prepared to accept the consequences for both himself and Donatello. I don’t think Cas is suddenly evil. 

"I think cas has developed an obsession to save the Winchester’s and Jack."

I totally agree with this.  I still find his actions chilling.  And his obsession to save Jack may be from fetus Jack programming Which can be a problem if Jack breaks bad because Cas won't care.

Going dark does not mean evil.  I Don't think his actions were evil. They were dark however.  I also Don't think anything Donatello said was necessarily true.  I Don't think Cas was risking his life.  Per season 7 he might ultimateky be affected by doing this.... Taking the hellpain messed him up quickly.  Taking in the contents of the demon tablet might slowly corrupt him.

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

Second Rewatch thoughts (See TL, DR for quick thoughts):
Preface: First time watching I was just overwhelemed with how much happened. And I wanted to pay closer attention to a somethings. This DEFINITELY feels like a episode that focused on the moral conundrums presented to our heroes and the choices they made. Which I think it ties into "Good Intentions" title -- that everyone WANTED to make good intended decisions but that it didn't always work out. So, with that background in mind, here's my more detailed thoughts and this time I'll go by character in order of moral conundrum presented:

Jack: Jack immediately rejects the illusion that Sam and Dean don't care for him and refuses to help Michael. I LOVE that it's the "power of love of the Winchesters" that has taken root in this kid's moral fiber. He's prepared to die rather than help Michael. As Mary points out, Michael will try to get to Jack by torturing/killing Mary. Notice that Jack doesn't actually say he would be able to resist that, instead he tries to get them out and succeeds. Later, he recalls Sam and Dean would not run from a fight (again! my cinnamon roll has imprinted onto the Winchesters and I'm delighted). And he decides to kill Angels rather than let them continue to kill humans. 

Sam, Dean & Cas: Getting the hearts of Gog and Magog. Obviously if they have hearts, they are lifeforms. And the first time through I was really bothered (like others) how quickly Dean & Cas go off to kill sentient beings. On the second watch, I think Glynn set up a LOT of uncertainty. First, Cas said he didn't think they were human. Second, Donatello admits their backstory is fuzzy (land or humans). Third, to get to Gog and Magog they have to first free them from some place that a priest stuck them because they were the bad guys. "Enslaving half the fertile crescent" puts them on Team Bad. So, I think there's doubt. It's not like Donatello said go to death row and get two hearts of murderers. I think the boys would have balked at that. I think the phrases "bind them in a place without a place and a time without a time", "I didn't think they were human", and "enslaved the fertile cresent' were meant to implly they were supernatural entities that may or maynot be human but were definitely bad news. But it didn't play strongly enough IMO. Because many came away with that reaction -- just gonna go carve out human hearts? So did the writing need to make it more ambiguous or did the writing intentionally take us to a "hey, what are they doing?" place. I'm not sure. And I don't think it was sufficiently one way or the other to say it worked well.

Mary- Tells Jack to let her be killed rather than open a rift. That's pretty much Winchester 101 so very little conundrum. I wonder if we had that scene to make remind us that self-sacrifice is the Winchester standard default. 

Bobby - Telling Mary she made the right choice regarding a demon deal. Revisiting this moral conundrum certainly implies 'family first' (as in John, her fiance), was the right call. But I'm not certain that's the take-away. I think it worked out because of who Sam and Dean are and whomever were the meatsuits they got instead were just not built to say "no" like Sam and Dean were. In sum... on surface it's a total vindication. But it also goes against Winchester 101 -- although EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. OF. THEM. has done some sort of Demon deal. Mary, John, Dean, Sam (implicit deal w/ Ruby to first save Dean and then get revenge on Lilith), Cas. So, it's provided good drama for 13 seasons but "right call" is debateable still IMO. 

Bobby - Telling Mary that Jack had to leave by morning once he realized he's a nephilim. Not much of a moral conundrum. Makes sense he'd protect his own.

Cas - stripping the spell out of Donatello and frying his brain. On second view I caught that there was also a risk that Cas would become brain fried. That tempers his decision a little for me. It was less "let me impose my will on you" and more "get the data, even if I risk us both". As I said on the other site, I think Cas has done a little Sam 'imprinting' and is solely focused on "whatever it takes". Sam got cold in S3 trying to save Dean. Dean thought Soulless Sam was just Sam acting like Dean. The Winchesters have gone "single-minded". So, I'd say this is the downside of imprinting off of the Winchesters -- they can be ruthless and do morally questionable things from time to time. 

Jack - I have to kill Michael. Well, that seems like the obvious answer. Doesn't roll off the tongue as quickly as "I have to kill the Devil", but in the AU, Michael is pretty much evil so, I'm not sure how much of a conundrum we have.

Bottom Line for the TL;DR on Conundrums: This was (IMO) a very morality-heavy episode. With Sam and Dean as our "guides", I'd have to say that the boys, Jack and Mary are "okay", Cas needs to dial it back a bit before he goes too far with the "ends justify the means" bit.


Other things I want to comment on:
- Mary & the headaches: I REALLY like that little angle Glynn used as a sign of warding being weaker in a particular location. Made sense and Mary's long term presence there allowed her to guide Jack immeidately to the best spot.
- Dean laughing at the loin cloth brothers: Dude. Did you see those thighs? They could crush you. You should have been more intimidated by those thighs rather than laugh at them. But, it was a funny scene, the ancient Canaanite bickering... only on Supernatural.
- Cas' death glare at Donatello. Oh honey. I don't Destiel but this definitely added fuel to that fire. Donatello hurt Dean and Cas wants to hurt him back. I'm okay with that level of love/loyalty. Cas can be so transparent sometime. 
- Sam snapping back immediately to depression. I think Dean is scared. I think he's stuck between Cas (on a 'ends justify the means' bender) and Sam (on a 'ready to throw in the towel' ledge). It's like having John back. He's gotta keep them all together and moving forward. Dean's issues will be put on the back burner. I don't know if we see him struggling to hide his feelings but he's definitely not showing any. I guess what I'm saying is that I think there's a valid reason for Dean being more level-headed right now and that's because that's what the team needs from him.
- Zachariah was not nearly petty enough. Michael is a little too evil. I need better motivation for the AU Angels. Right now they are kinda card-boardy.
- Did anyone else notice that it may be ONLY Michael who has wings? The other Angels show up via fireball. Did they somehow lose their wings? I wonder if they did and how that happened? Michael showed his when he first arrived. No one else has shown their wings. If they DO have wings, the fireballs make no sense, it broadcasts them coming.
- God-forged weapons. Those'll come in handy I hope.

In general, I like the episode. I think there was a LOT of set-up here for later use.

 

I agree that Cas showed no signs of getting pleasure from what he did to Donatello IMO.  

TFW's actions in obtaining the spell and it's ingredients to free Mary and Jack closely mirror the actions of the Plum Sisters to obtain the spell and ingredients to resurrect their Mother.  In that light  I think TFW is entering dark territory.  

Absolutely no thinking involved in killing two beings for their hearts to use in a recipe.  Dean was joking the entire time which although fun to watch is disturbing in and of itself because it shows he had absolutely no qualms about what he was doing.

Absolutely no thought needed for Cas to rip stuff out of a human's brain whilst knowing he would mess that human up permanently .  It was the angelic equivalent of taking a sledge hammer to his head.

In season 6 Dean killed the Phoenix to get the ashes to save the world and Dean really grappled with this even as the Phoenix was on a vendetta driving killing spree.

They are not saving the world this time.  

It is pretty dark in my opinion.

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/3/2018 at 2:55 PM, MysteryGuest said:

This wouldn't surprise me, but it would annoy me.  There's nothing the least bit ambiguous in how they've portrayed Jack as good, so to suddenly make him have evil thoughts will be completely out of left field.  Which, of course, means this is exactly what they're going to do.

They have shown him veering towards evil when he used his power to free the shadeen... His face reads as verging on evil to me.  .And we have seen Donatello go evil from using his power.

So they have set up the possibility.   And like Donatello he is basing his actions on what his chosen archtype of moralality would do.  So being good is not naturally innate or Jack could choose for himself without having to think WW Dean and Sam do.  We don't even know if he has a soul do we.  In my opinion they are setting things up to go south. 

[Wayward Son]

3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Don't forget season 6.  Everything Cas did that season was to prevent the Apocalypse ... And he did some very dark things with even worse results and justified it all  because his intentions were good.

I am disturbed.  I see Cas and Dean going down dark paths and Sam starting to be horrified yet unable to stop the madness.  If the show continues this things will get darker and interesting.

The episode @AwesomO4000 was referring to (Mommy Dearest) was episode 19 of Season six :)

[Jonesy]

10 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I could buy this of they had not wasted so much time on POOG.

Well we disagree huge time.  I see no real evidence Cas has been altered at all.  He's just been around humans and it's rubbed off with regards to some emotions.  But there was no hint of sadism with Donatello imo.   And they are trying to save the world from Apocalypse part 2--can they go too far...yes, but though the Donatello thing was stretching it, it was a hard valid move in all out war.  So Cas is OK right now...if he goes a good deal farther then yes it would be bad.  But he's not there at all yet.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Jakes

[catrox14]

11 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

They have shown him veering towards evil when he used his power to free the shadeen... His face reads as verging on evil to me.  .And we have seen Donatello go evil from using his power.

I think Jack was enjoying figuring out his power. I don't think that meant he was going evil. He could have at that point because of the energy from some of the energy maybe from Hell creeping in and falling prey to darkness because of his eagerness to please Donnymodeus in 13.2. And that came and went and everything in between has been Jack trying to be good and doing good. He's not hurt anyone intentionally. 

Until this episode, which was in service of saving humans in the AW.   He became a warrior at that point.  I didn't seen any kind of emotion from Jack other feeling powerful enough to help save Mary, AUBobby and the other AW humans. IMO, he showed some joy and relief that he helped them and got AU Bobby to not be against him. 

IMO, at this point, if Jack goes dark it will be because Castiel is really killed most sincerely 4 ever killed dead, and that spins him into a spiral of rage, grief and angry mourning and that will be a temporary dip into the deep end of darkness with Sam and Dean saving him from going Darth Jack. I don't think it will be a result of his nature as Lucifer's son. I think they've moved past that question now.   IMO, TPTB won't end Jack's story with him being evil. IMO, the show has invested too much in showing him to be good.

Edited March 6, 2018 by catrox14

[takalotti]

If Jack goes dark, I think it could also be because he becomes dissolutioned by his idols, Sam and Dean. Either Lucifer will get his hands on Jack and show him some some of their moments of questionable morals, or he'll remember some of his own experiences with the boys, like pulling a gun on Kaia and any possible pivotal event in the episodes leading to Jack going darkside.

[gonzosgirrl]

31 minutes ago, takalotti said:

If Jack goes dark, I think it could also be because he becomes dissolutioned by his idols, Sam and Dean. Either Lucifer will get his hands on Jack and show him some some of their moments of questionable morals, or he'll remember some of his own experiences with the boys, like pulling a gun on Kaia and any possible pivotal event in the episodes leading to Jack going darkside.

Seems to me that Jack tried to physically force Kaia to go along with him before Dean did. And then both (all powerful)Jack and Sam stood there while Dean pulled the gun on her. So I'm growing less and less inclined to let responsibility for Jack's ultimate fate get heaped on Dean.

[MysteryGuest]

17 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

They have shown him veering towards evil when he used his power to free the shadeen... His face reads as verging on evil to me.  .And we have seen Donatello go evil from using his power.

So they have set up the possibility.   And like Donatello he is basing his actions on what his chosen archtype of moralality would do.  So being good is not naturally innate or Jack could choose for himself without having to think WW Dean and Sam do.  We don't even know if he has a soul do we.  In my opinion they are setting things up to go south. 

I'm not sure I agree with this.  When Jack released the shadeen, he thought he was doing a good thing, first of all.  HIs facial expression looked like his pooping face, frankly, but that's because he was concentrating so hard to control his powers.  I wouldn't put anything past the writers, but up to this point, I don't think Jack's been anything but good.  

As for a soul, I don't really know.  Is an angel's grace their version of a soul?  And since Jack is half human and half angel, would he have both?  Either way, I don't believe he would qualify as what we would consider to be soulless.

I don't see how Jack can go dark, because where does that leave Sam and Dean?  With Michael, Lucifer, Asmodeus, Ketch and potentially Jack all on the evil side, those are pretty insurmountable odds.  Even with Cas' help.  They couldn't take out just Lucifer, so I don't see how they take on all of them.

[takalotti]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Seems to me that Jack tried to physically force Kaia to go along with him before Dean did. And then both (all powerful)Jack and Sam stood there while Dean pulled the gun on her. So I'm growing less and less inclined to let responsibility for Jack's ultimate fate get heaped on Dean.

Yes, good points.

 

To be clear, *I* don’t think Dean and Sam would actually be responsible for Jack going dark even in the scenarios I made up. It’s just that based on how they had Jack say "I asked myself, what would Sam and Dean do?" in this episode, I’m getting the sense that TPTB are having Jack put them on a pedestal such that he’ll be dissolutioned later. But even if this does happen, I have no worries that his pendulum will swing back to a more moderate position, seeing the boys as good even with their flaws and mistakes.

[Res]

Also remember there is such a thing as being TOO good. If one becomes so good that the slightest infraction or questionable act becomes a monumental offense, good isn't the best thing to be. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, takalotti said:

To be clear, *I* don’t think Dean and Sam would actually be responsible for Jack going dark even in the scenarios I made up. It’s just that based on how they had Jack say "I asked myself, what would Sam and Dean do?" in this episode, I’m getting the sense that TPTB are having Jack put them on a pedestal such that he’ll be dissolutioned later. But even if this does happen, I have no worries that his pendulum will swing back to a more moderate position, seeing the boys as good even with their flaws and mistakes.

I think that was much more about him thinking that Sam and Dean would stay and fight and that's it. Not that he thinks they are paragons of virtue. I think he already knows they are not, especially Dean :), but they try to help people and try to do the right thing. Good intentions and all that.

Edited March 7, 2018 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

11 hours ago, takalotti said:

To be clear, *I* don’t think Dean and Sam would actually be responsible for Jack going dark even in the scenarios I made up. It’s just that based on how they had Jack say "I asked myself, what would Sam and Dean do?" in this episode, I’m getting the sense that TPTB are having Jack put them on a pedestal such that he’ll be dissolutioned later. But even if this does happen, I have no worries that his pendulum will swing back to a more moderate position, seeing the boys as good even with their flaws and mistakes.

I think Jack's gonna do his own road to Hell in his pursuit to kill Micheal. I think it'll be like Cass in S6, who had good intentions but didn't know where the line was and just kept getting himself in deeper and deeper. I think Jack is going to say, "What would Sam and Dean do" a lot, but it's going to get a bit twisted around and go too far. I don't think he's going to go full darkside necessarily, but I do think it will add shades of grey to his currently very white personality.

[Katy M]

On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 3:06 PM, SueB said:

And the first time through I was really bothered (like others) how quickly Dean & Cas go off to kill sentient beings.

Everything they hunt on this show is a sentient being.  Vampires, shapeshifters, demons, ghosts. Everything.   They're just supposed to be bad.  And, I think they set it up that they had done evil.  If you ask me, this was a lot less morally ambiguous than Dean going after the phoenix in Frontierland.  Which he also did just to get the weapon he needed for Eve.  All the phoenix did was kill those who had killed, or helped aid and abet the killer of his wife.  He had done that and there wasn't anything to make it look like he was going to kill anyone else.  Or, we can just go back to the "if it's supernatural, we kill it," line. In which case Gog and Magog definitely qualify.

[catrox14]

No spoiler just a thought

Since they have to get something from the Tree of Life.. which was in the Garden of Eden....and Gadreel let Lucifer into the Garden could some of this potential hunt lead to a flashback of Gadreel in the Garden, which also makes me wonder why we haven't gotten an AU Gadreel but only played by Tahmoh Penikett

[Katy M]

37 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

No spoiler just a thought

Since they have to get something from the Tree of Life.. which was in the Garden of Eden....and Gadreel let Lucifer into the Garden could some of this potential hunt lead to a flashback of Gadreel in the Garden, which also makes me wonder why we haven't gotten an AU Gadreel but only played by Tahmoh Penikett

Well if the AU that we've seen is just a split from when Mary (didn't) make the deal, then Gadreel would probably still be in jail in the AU.

If we're going to get other angels in the AU, I would think we would see Uriel and Raphael, and perhaps Balthazar before Gadreel.  I hope they get Demore Barnes if they bring back Raphael.  I thought he was awesome and he only had 3 episodes.  I don't really care about the angels one way or the other, but if they are going to go that route, then that would be my preference. 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Katy M

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Well if the AU that we've seen is just a split from when Mary (didn't) make the deal, then Gadreel would probably still be in jail in the AU.

If that's what happened, but IMO, until the show says yes, this is what happened, it's a theory that hasn't been proven yet. I just think there are any number of ways to get Gadreel.  It's an AU. I doubt they get Demore Barnes back. He's probably pretty pricey these days after Hannibal.

I was thinking maybe Sterling Brown would reprise Gordon as a hunter in the AW. That would be fun, but I bet they can't secure him either these days. 

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If that's what happened, but IMO, until the show says yes, this is what happened, it's a theory that hasn't been proven yet. I just think there are any number of ways to get Gadreel.  It's an AU. I doubt they get Demore Barnes back. He's probably pretty pricey these days after Hannibal.

I was thinking maybe Sterling Brown would reprise Gordon as a hunter in the AW. That would be fun, but I bet they can't secure him either these days. 

I'm 99% sure I saw a tweet from Sterling (to/with Jared maybe?) that said how much he loved being on SPN - I bet he'd get a giggle out of a cameo.

Edited March 7, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm 99% sure I saw a tweet from Sterling (to/with Jared maybe?) that said how much he loved being on SPN - I bet he'd get a giggle out of a cameo.

I'm sure he'd love it but I'm not sure they afford it. Or are you saying he would do it for scale?

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm sure he'd love it but I'm not sure they afford it. Or are you saying he would do it for scale?

I honestly don't know the answer to that, but my impression was he would love to do it however it could be done, if you know what I mean. He seemed really happy to have been apart of Supernatural.

[takalotti]

Waaaaaaaait a minute! We've had a SERious break in protocol!

 

None of these posts should have been made. Catrox didn’t post her Thursday gifs!

 

Can we get a mod to clean up this thread? 

 

?

Edited March 9, 2018 by takalotti

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, takalotti said:

Waaaaaaaait a minute! We've had a SERious break in protocol!

 

None of these posts shouldn’t have been made. Catrox didn’t post her Thursday gifs!

 

Can we get a mod to clean up this thread? 

 

?

SORRY! I've been really depressed and not following through. I'll do better this week.

[takalotti]

I feel like Cas has been very squinty lately. Is that something Misha does more when he’s being Not!Cas, like Casmodeus in the previous episode or here as Casariah? I haven’t been keeping track, just feeling like there’s been a lot of times where Cas has no eyes.

 

Did anyone catch what was in Donatello's notes before he presented a translation? Like what he covered up before Cas came in with food, or right before he shouted Eureka, which might have been the real translation? I couldn’t. Just wondering.

 

Any fans of the Anne of Green Gables series here? As soon as Sam read off "the hearts of Gog and Magog" I immediately turned to Mr. Takalotti and said "Gog looks to the right and Magog to the left." He was very confused.

 

I, too, very much appreciated that the Cas/Dean exchange of "Then I’ll do it" and "I'll go with you" was met with zero argument. Cas looked a little annoyed, but apparently remembered how well things went the last time he turned down Dean's "I’ll go with you" and thankfully kept his objections to himself. To be clear, I’m not at all saying Cas is incompetent or that Dean is required for a successful mission. Just be a team without bickering, for Pete’s sake.

 

I didn’t consider the possibility that Mary could have been a Fake!Mary. I was too busy yelping "See? SEE?!" when she asked if Sam and Dean were in AW. I’m sure a viewer could interpret the scene any way she wanted, but this viewer took it as...

 

J: Your sons, Sam and Dean, they sent me.

M (sitting up in alarm): Are they here? (Oh no, they’re not here, are they?)

J: No.

M (settling down again with a relieved sigh): My god. (Oh thank god.)

 

...because ever since Mary got trapped in AW and the boys have talked about finding a way to save her, I've been irritated since I’ve been certain that she does NOT want them trying to get over there, risking being in the same universe as Lucifer. Speaking of, does she know that Lucifer jumped ship? Or does she think Michael still has him? Is it weird they didn’t talk about him?

 

M: You should be 6 months old.

J: I am!

Me: ?

 

Right before heading out for Gog and Magog, Dean asked "How are you holding up, Cas? [...] I just mean with, you know, everything you’ve been through..." It reminds me of when Cas said he was fine in the last episode and Dean asked "You sure about that?" I’m still struggling to understand what he’s getting at. And then both times, Cas brushes off the questions with some version of "I have to find Jack." It just feels like these conversations are supposed to mean something and I am totally missing what that is. Or am I wrong, and it’s really just exposition for anyone who doesn’t remember why Cas is part of getting to AW?

 

Gog/Magog: Whichever warrior releases us must face us in combat. He-

Magog/Gog: Or she.

Me: ?

 

I found it annoying that Cas was just lying there when Gog/Magog wound up to stab him AND after Dean stabbed Gog/Magog. Good thing Gog/Magog was kind enough to keep holding his sword and roll off to the side when he fell ? Reminded me of all the other "slow" moves from this season that feel so weird.

 

Good thing Donatello decided to use a bottle against Sam instead of a Demon Tablet Spell.

 

Michael: Zachariah, don’t fail me again.

Me: Uh, you were the one who put Jack in the cell without a guard, dipshit.

 

Looking around Bobby's colony, it didn’t look like women were that rare. What was up with the creeper Mary met when she first came over? I guess he was an outcast and most women stayed inside colony boundaries while mostly men went out on patrols so that’s why he hadn’t seen any women lately? ??‍♀️

 

I hope Cas and Dean kept those swords. It didn’t look like they had them when they came back to the bunker ? Then again, Dean wasn’t carrying the bag he left with, so here’s hoping the swords are in Baby's trunk ?

 

Donatello: You’re supposed to be dead.

Dean: Sorry about that.

Donatello: (Nods, like he’s commiserating with Dean. 'I agree, it’s a damn shame.')

 

Dean's little look of 'Wow, you are so far gone' after Donatello accuses them of wanting his powers was a nice little subtle moment.

 

When Donatello shot his hand out at Dean, I actually thought Dean was faking. I didn’t have any idea WHY Dean might have been faking, but I think it was just because of the delay between Donatello's movement and Dean's reaction. And of course, I aww-ed at Cas running off to save his boyfriend and giving Donatello the major stink eye? Why was running out of the room enough to break the suffocating spell? ??‍♀️

 

So what would have happened if soulless-Donatello read the angel tablet? Same thing or no? Cas said that the soul would inoculate the prophet against whatever darkness is in the tablet. Darkness, not power. I wouldn’t expect there to be any darkness in an angel tablet, though of course there would be power.

 

I don’t know why, but I just liked Dean's "What are you talking about?" delivery. Just the right amount of bewildered 'Why is everyone falling apart here?' without going OTT.

 

"Yeah, because you convinced Death to get my soul back from the cage, but Amara ATE Donatello's soul; there’s nothing TO get back." 

Ahh, lines that only make sense on this show.

 

I didn’t have any problems with any of the Donatello dilemma. I didn’t take issue with either Cas' original suggestion to end his suffering or what he actually did. And even though I agree with Cas' actions and reasons, I didn’t have any issues with Sam and Dean's objections.

[The Companion]

 

On 3/2/2018 at 12:46 AM, Castiels Cat said:

I missed the first 2/3 but when somebody explained who Got and Magog were I was agog (lol) because that is human sacrifice.  A human character saying yes to human sacrifice is dark.  

At the end of the episode the Winchesters were against killing Donatello because there were other ways to solve the problem. 

They were totally fine with human sacrifice to save Mary, like the Plum Sisters, if that was the only way to get what they needed.  Pretty damn dark and then Cas went darker.

It has been a while however my recollection of season 4 Cas was that he was magnificent, powerful, serious and unemotional.  This Cas is different.

Or to get their nephilim killing knives.  I havecsussed from She's comments that only their swords could kill them and that they were nephilim because they''re giants that should have died in the flood * explained in more detail else where).

I did find the agreement to go after Gog and Magog without reservation a bit jarring.

On 3/2/2018 at 7:33 AM, Bergamot said:

 

Oh my God yes. So they take Mary making a deal with the Yellow-Eyed Demon -- the dark, twisted, anguished knot at the heart of the character -- at the heart of the whole show, really -- and smooth it out and tidy it up and put it to bed. It all seems so simple now. Thank goodness Mary locked lips with that demon wearing her dead father's body -- otherwise the world could not have been saved by Dean and Sam! That settles that problem! She "made the right choice" -- no need to worry about any ramifications or after-effects. (I guess that should also apply to any other bad decisions they have all made to save each other? No guilt for anyone!)

 

I know this has probably been talked into the ground, but I was irritated by this and it was hard to articulate why, but I think it was the oversimplification like you are talking about. This was such a central decision with so many consequences and it felt like they were granting unearned absolution 

On 3/2/2018 at 5:51 PM, Lemuria said:

 

I'm with those who think that she simply wasn't tortured all that much.  Michael apparently felt he needed her for some reason.  Otherwise I think he would have just killed her.  To him, she would just have been another useless human.  Why keep her around?  Her "torture" seemed to be on the same level as Bobby's in Hell (as per "Taxi Driver").  Remember that fiasco?  Bobby was kept in a cell with an unlocked door (since Sam could just waltz in) and every day two demons who wore Dean and Sam's faces would come in and insult him.  Just gives me shivers thinking how much he must have suffered compared to--I don't know, Dean?--with the hooks all over the place and on a rack where Dean was dismembered daily.  

 

If only they locked her away alone. Apparently that is worse than hell-torture. 🙄

I don't have strong feelings about this one at all. I liked Gog and Magog and I am actually enjoying AU Bobby, but this one was largely forgettable for me. It felt like more set up than story, if that makes sense.

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by The Companion

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, The Companion said:

It felt like more set up than story, if that makes sense.

That's the problem with most of the later seasons for me.  There's an awful lot of setup and very little payoff--at least, not in terms of canon and the characters.  It's like they threw a lot of ideas against the wall and decided which ones they wanted to follow--not necessarily the ones that stuck--and how they felt like finishing them based on their own favorites (or least favorites!) with no regard to logic or canon.  It makes for very disjointed and frustrating storytelling.

[DeeDee79]

27 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

It's like they threw a lot of ideas against the wall and decided which ones they wanted to follow--not necessarily the ones that stuck--and how they felt like finishing them based on their own favorites (or least favorites!) with no regard to logic or canon.

This sums up Dabb's version of Supernatural in a nutshell IMO.