S13.E14: Good Intentions

[DeeDee79]

*Double Post*

Edited March 3, 2018 by DeeDee79

[Wayward Son]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

I find it hilarious that you even said this.
 

I’m not sure what’s so funny about it? There are plenty of times where characters on this show and others are shown to be wrong o.o 

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

I’m curious. If you think Bobby doesn’t believe in the butterfly effect. Why from your perspective did he say what he did? 

 Quite frankly the writers don't seem to be clever enough to weave as much intricate detail that you give them credit for. Also, I don't agree with the "butterfly affect" theory and don't have any interest in defending my reasons for not agreeing.

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I’m not sure what’s so funny about it? There are plenty of times where characters on this show and others are shown to be wrong o.o 

I guess the irony isn't as obvious as it is to me.

[Castiels Cat]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah I know about the multiverse theory.  Thanks. But I don't think this show is doing. I think this show was trying to create an Earth 1 and Earth 2 thing like in the DC verse.

Billie was talking about Dean's deaths in this world. Not Dean's existence or lack there of in another universe. That Dean's choices in this world would determine his fate in this world. Not his fate in another universe. What she is worried about is a Winchester affecting another universe.

She never said her library of death was across universes.  It was Dean in this universe. No others.

I disagree.  The writers had Billie introduce the multiverse theory in text.  Then Bobby confirns that the pivotal difference between the two universes is Mary's decision to say YES or NO to a demon deal.  Two textual confirmations. There really is not another interpretation unless you ignore two deliberate textual insertions by writers.

Billie did not need to tell Dean about all of the possible outcomes of his decision.  The fact that these outcomes are written in books means that somewhere in some universe Dean died this way.

Why else would death keep a record.of it. Death keeps records of actual Deaths not near misses..

So either you believe Death just felt like having a useless chat with Dean about decisions and multiple universes for no reason or you believe that the writers were using Death to impart some important information to Dean and us.

And the fact that she told Dean you and Sam matter is confirmation that the AU we have seen is that way because Dean and Sam were not there to stop the Apocalypse.  So yes it is It' A Wonderful Life with Dean and Sam's lives making the world  better on a cosmic scale  rather  than the effects of George's life on his neighbors and friends.

It has pretty much spelled out for us in text.

I also think Bobbie was trying to warn Dean not to say yes to Michael here and not open the rift to let that Michael over here because both actions equal the Apocalypse over here.  DEAN is not  going to listen of course because of Mary. 

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Although. IMO that’s the belief AU Bobby was acting on in this episode, and that’s why he said Mary made the right choice as our world seems to be better off than his. Bobby may not be correct, fictional characters can be wrong after all, but that certainly seems to be what he believes. His words don’t make sense otherwise IMO. 

This all came up because of the perception that the show is trying to absolve Mary of her guilt for her deal  by AU Bobby saying that AU Mary not making a deal make their world bad.  That's true in his world. That's not true in our world because they are not the same person.

AU Bobby is comparing his world to the SPN world. That's all he was doing but folks are running with it being "Mary is vindicated!" Well not for me. And if they show is trying to pass that off as vindication, well this viewer does not buy it.

And John isn't vindicated either just because he died in the other universe. He still screwed up his kids in this universe.

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

 Quite frankly the writers don't seem to be clever enough to weave as much intricate detail that you give them credit for. Also, I don't agree with the "butterfly affect" theory and don't have any interest in defending my reasons for not agreeing.

No one was asking you to “defend” yourself. I simply asked for your interpretation of his words since you mentioned it was different to mine. 

 

Anyway, I think we can end this discussion here. Have a nice day. 

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

No one was asking you to “defend” yourself. I simply asked for your interpretation of his words since you mentioned it was different to mine. 

 

Anyway, I think we can end this discussion here. Have a nice day. 

Glad to end it; have an awesome day!

Edited March 3, 2018 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

nd the fact that she told Dean you and Sam matter is confirmation that the AU we have seen is that way because Dean and Sam were not there to stop the Apocalypse.  So yes it is It' A Wonderful Life with Dean and Sam's lives making the world  better on a cosmic scale  rather  than the effects of George's life on his neighbors and friends.

It's a Wonderful Life took place in ONE universe. In one timeline. This is a different universe. That said, we're going in circles. We aren't going to concur so I'm not going to belabor my points any further. :)

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

He was too awesome not to at least get a cameo in the AU!

I do hope on one hand that he really did exist as Stephen Williams and that he died saving AU Bobby using the gun that AU Bobby has now. Otherwise,.......well, ...I'm not happy that a gun is named for an African American character. That just rubs me so much the wrong way.

[DeeDee79]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I do hope on one hand that he really did exist as Stephen Williams and that he died saving AU Bobby using the gun that AU Bobby has now. Otherwise,.......well, ...I'm not happy that a gun is named for an African American character. That just rubs me so much the wrong way.

Me too. If they were going to mention him why not at least show him also? I loved their relationship.

[Wayward Son]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This all came up because of the perception that the show is trying to absolve Mary of her guilt for her deal  by AU Bobby saying that AU Mary not making a deal make their world bad.  That's true in his world. That's not true in our world because they are not the same person.

AU Bobby is comparing his world to the SPN world. That's all he was doing but folks are running with it being "Mary is vindicated!" Well not for me. And if they show is trying to pass that off as vindication, well this viewer does not buy it.

And John isn't vindicated either just because he died in the other universe. He still screwed up his kids in this universe.

Fair enough. 

 

Quick Question; assuming you’re right and the show wants to vindicate Mary. Why do you find it hard to believe the entire concept of the Apocalypse world wasn’t a part of their plan to absolve her? You know basically “OK so some fans think she’s horrible for accepting that deal. Well why don’t we create a world where she didn’t accept the deal and show how much worse the alternative would have been?” If anything a butterfly effect seems like it would fit into your “absolve Mary” agenda to me. 

 

Overall, I’d love to hear your answer to my question, but beyond that it’s probably best we end the discussion since we’ll just go round in circle. I just want to say though since both both worlds have a number of people in common (Lucifer, Michael, Zachariah, John, Mary, Bobby, Kevin) and events in common (Lucifer’s fall, the demon deal, John and Mary meet and fall in love) it doesn’t seem as simple as “both worlds are different and in no way mirror or contrast each other” to me :) 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Wayward Son

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I have no issue with what Cas did with Donatello.  What else were they going to do with him?  The combination of demon tablet and no soul was too much for him.  His soul would have acted as a filter, per Cas, but without that, he just absorbed all of that evil.  Not to mention working behind their backs with Asmodeus.  The writers missed the mark on this one, I think.  Having Sam and Dean call Cas out like that was hypocritical and out of character.

For me the point is that they established two lines in the sand.  DEAN and Sam were fine with killing two beings to get their hearts fir a spellbecause it was the only way to save mom.   Sam gas dine this before in season 10 however Dean hasn't so I see this as a red flag that Dean is going darker to save Mary  along with pulling a gun on Kaia (not like Dean) , rushing to open the rift (so not kije DEAN) and not being guikty about kaia's death (SOOOO not like Dean). This all leads to Dean saying yes to Michael something he  never would do before.

Dean and Sam were not cool with killing Donatello for information presumably because they believed there was another way.  They also do not kill monsters, etc. Until they have killed. Killing Donatello simply to furn on another prophet is pretty evil.  Considering the heart business they may have changed their minds if they were desperate. And nothing else panned out. 

Cas easily crossed this line which is another red flag.

Things are getting very very interesting 

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I do hope on one hand that he really did exist as Stephen Williams and that he died saving AU Bobby using the gun that AU Bobby has now. Otherwise,.......well, ...I'm not happy that a gun is named for an African American character. That just rubs me so much the wrong way.

 

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Me too. If they were going to mention him why not at least show him also? I loved their relationship.

Maybe Steven Williams wasn’t available? And they wanted to at least give the character a shout out? 

[SueB]

Just so we're clear, whether or not we are experiencing "The Butterfly Effect", there's only one definition for that specific term.  It's not about multiverse or not, it's just a term:

Quote

"In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions in which a small change in one state of a deterministic nonlinear system can result in large differences in a later state.[1]"

Having studied just a skoosh of chaos theory, the Wikipedia definition is pretty much spot on.

 

As for alternate universes/yes or no... let me offer the following statements of "fact" as I THINK canon has presented:
1) In Supernatural, God created the universe and everything in it.
2) God think's "nature" was his biggest accomplishement and it went far beyond what he expected
3) The multiverse exists
4) There's not just our universe and one another, the brief glimpse into Kaia's mind trip w/ Jack showed tons of windows. Derek walked in many places.
5) Billie as Death seemed to be tracking many types of Dean's death. Did she say they were all in OUR universe?  IDK.  

Having said this, I think it is fair to debate HOW multiuniverses came into being.  Are there still the same number of them at the start of the universe or is the number of universes expanding like our real-life universe is expanding.

I think it's a fair interpretation they've set up our world versus Apocalypse World to be centered on Mary's decision.  I don't KNOW that this is the case. I don't think we have definitive anything.  But ponder this: if Billie has a whole shelf of "Dean's death" books, are those alternate timelines or alternate universes?  Does EVERYONE's key decisions spawn off a universe or alternate timeline?  Or is it just Deans.  

There are too many questions to answer.  But Billy in a room with a shelf full of Dean Death puts into question the nature of the multi-verse.  And I totally agree with her... don't go blundering around between them.  I feel it has 'crossing the streams' potential ala Ghostbusters.  

Bottom Line:  More questions than answers.  I think there are far too many options to definitively state there is only ONE interpretation of what the AU represents.  

Edited March 3, 2018 by SueB

[MysteryGuest]

I agree that they've been saying right along that the AU is what our world would have been, if not for Sam and Dean.  Which basically means, if Mary hadn't made her demon deal.  The characters we've met there...Bobby, Kevin and the late Mary Campbell are the same people as in our world, only without the connection to John or Sam and Dean.  If you're going to believe a story about two human men who save the world from the Apocalypse, and who are chosen by God himself to safeguard the planet, then I think you have to believe the opposite of that.  And the AU is the flip side.

I also think that having Bobby name his gun after Rufus was an homage to his friend who had obviously died, and wasn't meant to be disrespectful to Rufus or the actor who played him.  And as much as I love Rufus, we really don't need anymore characters coming back this season.

Edited March 3, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Quick Question; assuming you’re right and the show wants to vindicate Mary. Why do you find it hard to believe the entire concept of the Apocalypse world wasn’t a part of their plan to absolve her? You know basically “OK so some fans think she’s horrible for accepting that deal. Well why don’t we create a world where she didn’t accept the deal and show how much worse the alternative would have been?” If anything a butterfly effect seems like it would fit into your “absolve Mary” agenda to me. 

If Dabb really wants to vindicate Mary he's doing it in kind of a chicken shit way because, as is seen in this thread alone, some think it's Butterfly Effect, some thing it's totally unrelated worlds colliding.

So it's just well, lame writing to do it that way. Either go all in and absolve Mary, by having Guck say she's good to go and no one should hate her and don't make it ambiguous.

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Maybe Steven Williams wasn’t available? And they wanted to at least give the character a shout out? 

Fair enough.

[Wayward Son]

Just now, catrox14 said:

If Dabb really wants to vindicate Mary he's doing it in kind of a chicken shit way because, as is seen in this thread alone, some think it's Butterfly Effect, some thing it's totally unrelated worlds colliding.

So it's just well, lame writing to do it that way. Either go all in and absolve Mary, by having Guck say she's good to go and no one should hate her and don't make it ambiguous.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts :)

[Castiels Cat]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

Fair enough. 

 

Quick Question; assuming you’re right and the show wants to vindicate Mary. Why do you find it hard to believe the entire concept of the Apocalypse world wasn’t a part of their plan to absolve her? You know basically “OK so some fans think she’s horrible for accepting that deal. Well why don’t we create a world where she didn’t accept the deal and show how much worse the alternative would have been?” If anything a butterfly effect seems like it would fit into your “absolve Mary” agenda to me. 

 

Overall, I’d love to hear your answer to my question, but beyond that it’s probably best we end the discussion since we’ll just go round in circle. I just want to say though since both both worlds have a number of people in common (Lucifer, Michael, Zachariah, John, Mary, Bobby, Kevin) and events in common (Lucifer’s fall, the demon deal, John and Mary meet and fall in love) it doesn’t seem as simple as “both worlds are different and in no way mirror or contrast each other” to me :) 

Me too. I almost asked catrox why she is so against this theory which is based in actual text and not speculation or interpretation. 

I do not think the point is to vindicate Mary.   Mary feels guilty and has tried to make her sons lives betrer in her misguided way by working with the BMOL to rid their world of monstwets so her boys no longer needed to hunt.  Dean called her out on her actions too.  DEAN and Sam's lives have been brutal because of her deal.  I think Dean is mostky angry that she died and left him and was resurrected and left him... but he full well knows that the Winchester family curse started with her.

Anyhow denon deals to save lives ones are a family tradition at this point.

The takeaway from rhat conversation is not Mary is vindicated, it is that Dean and Sam matter.... just like Billie said.   In a season in which both brothers are depressed and questioning whether they do good no less.   The AU is there to show them and us that the Winchesters do good in the world. Theirs is a dirty  business and it is easy to lose sight of this. They do and we as fans do.

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I also think that having Bobby name is gun after Rufus was an homage to his friend who had obviously died, and wasn't meant to be disrespectful to Rufus or the actor who played him.  And as much as I love Rufus, we really don't need anymore characters coming back this season

IA with this.  OTOH, if we were having characters coming back, I'd much rather Rufus be one than...just about any of the ones they *did* have. 

[Castiels Cat]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I agree that they've been saying right along that the AU is what our world would have been, if not for Sam and Dean.  Which basically means, if Mary hadn't made her demon deal.  The characters we've met there...Bobby, Kevin and the late Mary Campbell are the same people as in our world, only without the connection to John or Sam and Dean.  If you're going to believe a story about two human men who save the world from the Apocalypse, and who are chosen by God himself to safeguard the planet, then I think you have to believe the opposite of that.  And the AU is the flip side.

I also think that having Bobby name his gun after Rufus was an homage to his friend who had obviously died, and wasn't meant to be disrespectful to Rufus or the actor who played him.  And as much as I love Rufus, we really don't need anymore characters coming back this season.

We are on the same page.

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

IA with this.  OTOH, if we were having characters coming back, I'd much rather Rufus be one than...just about any of the ones they *did* have. 

Yep.  Ash too. He would be very usually in a quantum physics way.  I am sure he can walk between worlds now

[Lemuria]

There are most likely an infinite number of universes in the multiverse (well, at least there are as far as Dr. Strange is concerned!) and there are undoubtedly universes where Mary made the deal and it still ended badly--Sam was corrupted early by the demon blood in his system and went fully darkside; angels talked to Dean from when he was a child and he fully bought into being willing to sacrifice half of humanity to destroy Lucifer and Hell (and Darkside Sam) in order to ensure the remaining half lived in earthly paradise--and universes where she didn't make the deal and it still turned out well. 

It's somewhat simplistic of AU Bobby, IMO, to assume that this was the only thing that counted--which is why I do think it was the show's way of vindicating her decision to make a deal and part of the show's constant efforts to glorify Mary.  Unfortunately, it's all tell and no show, since I think she's been a bust as a hunter.  Without going over everything, just the fact that a hunter would not demon-proof her own house shows a level of stupid that's mindboggling (especially as she was taking off for days at a time and leaving first one and then two young children, and one unsuspecting husband, in a house without wards).

I disagree that her turning to the BMoL was not stupid.  I understand that she (and Sam) thought the Brits shiny toys could be useful (and we should have nicknamed that season as Toys Ex Machina because the BMoL kept miraculously pulling these out of their toy chests--even though the American MoL had no idea any of them existed) but they both should have had better instincts, and shrewder observational skills, especially as our first meeting with the Brits involved torturing Sam very nastily (even the run-of-the-mill American hunters didn't buy into what the Brits were selling).  Only the "dumb" Winchester knew better.

Quote

DEAN and Sam were fine with killing two beings to get their hearts fir a spellbecause it was the only way to save mom.

The Gog brothers were not human and in both Hebrew and Christian lore, they were bad guys--Christianity even has them in league with Satan.  So they fall within the category of beings that the brothers kill on a regular basis, often just to save one or two people.  

Quote

Mary has already shown guilt for her actions and tried to make up for it by risking her life to hunt with the BMOL to rid the world of monsters  so her boys don't need to hunt...

Which, to me, only confirms she's an idiot.  There's no way the Brits could accomplish this.  In tiny England, they might have succeeded but in North America (because monsters don't stop at the borders), it was a lost cause.  

I also don't agree that she sacrificed herself for the boys.  She intended to use the angel-busting brass knuckles--which remains totally ridiculous to me!--to knock Lucifer back but she had no intention of going through the rift herself; Lucifer grabbed her and pulled her through with him.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Lemuria

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

IA with this.  OTOH, if we were having characters coming back, I'd much rather Rufus be one than...just about any of the ones they *did* have. 

This, so much!

[Castiels Cat]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts :)

Mary has already shown guilt for her actions and tried to make up for it by risking her life to hunt with the BMOL to rid the world of monsters  so her boys don't need to hunt... AND she friggin 'sacrificed herself to save them by beating up Lucifer and pushing him through a rift.  And she still feels guilty. Good Lord.  .

It is a classic Winchester redemption arc.  What more can she do...

[Wayward Son]

Whether it’s availablity or pay issues the show seems to have been quite reticent about showing us AU versions of human characters. Other than Jim Beaver (who reappears at least once a season anyway) they’ve only brought back Osric Chau. The rest of the characters have been angels played by entirely different actors. 

 

IMO chances are either Steven Williams wasn’t available or they couldn’t afford to bring him back. So the gun being called Rufus was their shoutout to the character instead. Since I don’t believe they’ve ever recast a human character?  

[SueB]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Whether it’s availablity or pay issues the show seems to have been quite reticent about showing us AU versions of human characters. Other than Jim Beaver (who reappears at least once a season anyway) they’ve only brought back Osric Chau. The rest of the characters have been angels played by entirely different actors. 

 

IMO chances are either Steven Williams wasn’t available or they couldn’t afford to bring him back. So the gun being called Rufus was their shoutout to the character instead. Since I don’t believe they’ve ever recast a human character?  

Mrs. Tran.  But she was a "blink and you'll miss her" character in S7 versus recurring in S8.

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Since I don’t believe they’ve ever recast a human character? 

Kevin's mom was recast. Other than that it was just vessels ( or meat suits ).

[MysteryGuest]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If Dabb really wants to vindicate Mary he's doing it in kind of a chicken shit way because, as is seen in this thread alone, some think it's Butterfly Effect, some thing it's totally unrelated worlds colliding.

So it's just well, lame writing to do it that way. Either go all in and absolve Mary, by having Guck say she's good to go and no one should hate her and don't make it ambiguous.

I don't really remember fans hating Mary, prior to their bringing her back in season 12.  I think the Mary hate started when the writers retconned her history and turned her into a super hunter, and mainly because she was shitty to Sam and Dean upon her return.  They didn't give us the Mary we had known, and the Mary that Dean loved and missed.  

I could have easily done without her BMOL alliance, but I think it was interesting to look at Mary in a different light.  Up until then, it was John who was the asshole, bad parent.  So they do get points from me for making it believable enough that Dean would have bottled up all of his resentment and hatred for his mother.  I don't think it's something he would ever have even considered if she hadn't been brought back.  

So I don't really see this as some elaborate scheme to whitewash Mary's deal.  I don't think her deal was any worse than all of the other deals that have been made on this show.  I think it's just another way to point out just how heroic Sam and Dean are, and what they've meant to the world.  Might be a bit too on-the-nose, but I still think that's the intent.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Mrs. Tran.  But she was a "blink and you'll miss her" character in S7 versus recurring in S8.

 

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

Kevin's mom was recast. Other than that it was just vessels ( or meat suits ).

Thanks both of you for the clarification :)

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I agree that they've been saying right along that the AU is what our world would have been, if not for Sam and Dean.  Which basically means, if Mary hadn't made her demon deal.  The characters we've met there...Bobby, Kevin and the late Mary Campbell are the same people as in our world, only without the connection to John or Sam and Dean.  If you're going to believe a story about two human men who save the world from the Apocalypse, and who are chosen by God himself to safeguard the planet, then I think you have to believe the opposite of that.  And the AU is the flip side.

I don't have to believe the opposite of that. What I can believe is that it's a mirror to this world not an It's a Wonderful Life thing. other than on the surface.

In this world, the angels compelled things to happen as they did and Mary making a deal was a foregone conclusion. It was always going to be that Mary said yes, John lived, Dean and Sam were born.

So the question to me, is if  everything was the same before Mary's decision moment, why didn't it turn out the same way if it was all the angels plan?

IMO it suggests that it wasn't a foregone conclusion that Mary saying yes mattered at all in either world really.

Maybe that's because the War between Angels and Demons on Earth2 was the only thing they wanted and they needed Mary to say no, so that the boys weren't born. 

So to me it's still an alternate version of the story, not an alternate version of Mary's actual life here.

And it's definitely not a reason for me to agree with AU Bobby that somehow Mary is a saint for saying yes. JMHO

[Castiels Cat]

1 minute ago, Lemuria said:

There are most likely an infinite number of universes in the multiverse (well, at least there are as far as Dr. Strange is concerned!) and there are undoubtedly universes where Mary made the deal and it still ended badly--Sam was corrupted early by the demon blood in his system and went fully darkside; angels talked to Dean from when he was a child and he fully bought into being willing to sacrifice half of humanity to destroy Lucifer and Hell (and Darkside Sam) in order to ensure the remaining half lived in earthly paradise--and universes where she didn't make the deal and it still turned out well. 

It's somewhat simplistic of AU Bobby, IMO, to assume that this was the only thing that counted--which is why I do think it was the show's way of vindicating her decision to make a deal and part of the show's constant efforts to glorify Mary.  Unfortunately, it's all tell and no show, since I think she's been a bust as a hunter.  Without going over everything, just the fact that a hunter would not demon-proof her own house shows a level of stupid that's mindboggling (especially as she was taking off for days at a time and leaving first one and then two young children, and one unsuspecting husband, in a house without wards).

I disagree that her turning to the BMoL was not stupid.  I understand that she (and Sam) thought the Brits shiny toys could be useful (and we should have nicknamed that season as Toys Ex Machina because the BMoL kept miraculously pulling these out of their toy chests--even though the American MoL had no idea any of them existed) but they both should have had better instincts, and shrewder observational skills, especially as our first meeting with the Brits involved torturing Sam very nastily (even the run-of-the-mill American hunters didn't buy into what the Brits were selling).  Only the "dumb" Winchester knew better.

I think she made the deal with the BMOL because she thought she would make her boys lives better. She says as much.

The fact that she stayed on after the Daniel clusterFCK is really stupid.

I don't this idea that the AU  Apocalypse vindicates her or the words of a besotted Bobby were mea to vindicate her.  The point the show is trying to make is that Dean and Sam matter. Dean and Sam stopped the Apocalypse from happening over here.  Yes sometimes people due but people wee saved even if they are flawed and sometimes make stupid or reckless decisions. 

Unfortunately I am afraid that our universe will change for the worse from a colossal Winchester fuck up.  They should not open the rift and Deasn should not make a deal with Michael... but they will and he will imo.

[SueB]

@DeeDee79  Jinx!

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Me too. I almost asked catrox why she is so against this theory which is based in actual text and not speculation or interpretation. 

I interpret the text completely differently than you.

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

@DeeDee79  Jinx!

Great minds :)

[Castiels Cat]

8 minutes ago, SueB said:

Mrs. Tran.  But she was a "blink and you'll miss her" character in S7 versus recurring in S8.

I would love to see  a badass AU Mrs. Tran in combat gear.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Mary has already shown guilt for her actions and tried to make up for it by risking her life to hunt with the BMOL to rid the world of monsters  so her boys don't need to hunt... AND she friggin 'sacrificed herself to save them by beating up Lucifer and pushing him through a rift.  And she still feels guilty. Good Lord.  .

It is a classic Winchester redemption arc.  What more can she do...

Well, for me? Not have been an asshole to her children once she was resurrected.  She needs to sit down and tell them she's sorry for dismissing them and hurting them. I don't think she's done that yet. I kind of don't care that she feels guilty. Feeling guilty is HER penance.

[MysteryGuest]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't have to believe the opposite of that.

No, you don't, and I worded that poorly.  My point was that I don't find this possibility any more farfetched than the story of Sam and Dean to begin with.  

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And it's definitely not a reason for me to agree with AU Bobby that somehow Mary is a saint for saying yes. JMHO

I don't know that he was saying she was a saint, as much as he was just trying to make someone he cared about feel better about something that she felt guilty about.  I think he obviously cared for the Mary Campbell he knew, and felt a certain kinship with this Mary, as well.  

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

She needs to sit down and tell them she's sorry for dismissing them and hurting them. I don't think she's done that yet.

She did do that at the end of last season.  Unfortunately, she hasn't had another opportunity to even speak with her sons since then.  But she did apologize to both of them.  

Edited March 3, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

The takeaway from rhat conversation is not Mary is vindicated, it is that Dean and Sam matter.... just like Billie said.   In a season in which both brothers are depressed and questioning whether they do good no less.   The AU is there to show them and us that the Winchesters do good in t

To me this whole AW thing being centered around the absence of Sam and Dean is kind of a strawman plot all in all. I mean who ever thought Sam and Dean didn't matter when the AU was introduced?

Dean felt he didn't matter THIS season after he lost everyone AFTER the AU was introduced.

It's really squirrelly when I think about it for 5 freaking minutes as a premise.

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

She did do that at the end of last season.  Unfortunately, she hasn't had another opportunity to even speak with her sons since then.  But she did apologize to both of them.  

She half assed apologized which I guess is a Winchester apology. Mary apologized for the deal making. She didn't really apologize for her specific shitty treatment of them in s12.

[MysteryGuest]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's really squirrelly when I think about it for 5 freaking minutes as a premise.

I never said it wasn't squirrelly...I totally agree with you there.  But I think it's because they continue to show us that Sam and Dean don't always think of themselves as heroes that they're hitting us over the head with the AU.  That, plus being able to play out Apocalypse Part II.  Rather than coming up with something new, it's just a "what would have happened, if..." retelling of the same basic story.

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

She didn't really apologize for her specific shitty treatment of them in s12.

No, but she did acknowledge that she'd been cold and detached, so I took that as her apology.  This is part of the reason that I'm hoping we get at least some scenes of Mary with her sons.  I wanted to see that relationship as it should have been, so if they never let me see that, I'm going to be pissed.

[catrox14]

42 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

 

Maybe Steven Williams wasn’t available? And they wanted to at least give the character a shout out? 

Oh I suspect that's the real world reason but why not name AU Bobby's kicky beret after Rufus? Or his coat?  Or even the camp that he runs there? Why not call it Camp Rufus? For me, that it's a gun really never sat well with me at all.

[Castiels Cat]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well, for me? Not have been an asshole to her children once she was resurrected.  She needs to sit down and tell them she's sorry for dismissing them and hurting them. I don't think she's done that yet. I kind of don't care that she feels guilty. Feeling guilty is HER penance.

She acted no different than Sam and Dean gave to each other.  She was traumatized by her abrupt removal from a heaven where she mothered two small children to the reality of two adult men with difficult lives because of a choice she made.  She ran because she was guilt ridden. And she used hunting to deal with her angst like Dean. How many time has Sam run away. Even Dean has done this abd he ebded up with Crowley and the MoC. Why isn't Mary allowed to be human and make mistakes.  Why isn't she allowed to be a Winchester.

Thank God the writers wrote her as a fully realized character and not as some zombie female mommy trope whose whole life revolves around her kids. She even passes the Bechdahl test or whatever he is called.

[MysteryGuest]

None of our opinions are right or wrong, they're just opinions.  After having watched 13 seasons of this show, one thing I've learned is that most of what they do makes no sense.  So any ideas we might have are certainly no better or worse than what we end up with from the writers.  

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah I know about the multiverse theory.  Thanks. But I don't think this show is doing. I think this show was trying to create an Earth 1 and Earth 2 thing like in the DC verse.

For me it looks like they were doing an Alternate Universe (AU) a la Buffy: The Vampire Slayer. In that show, an AU happened because of a vengeance demon. For those who don't know the show, vengeance demons grant "wishes" (you never wish for anything out loud in Buffyverse if you know what's good for you), but not necessarily in the way you think. In one episode Cordelia, being pissed at Buffy for some reason (I don't remember why, but I think it had to do with Xander) wished that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale and "Done!" that's what happened. Unfortunately for Cordelia, Buffy never coming to Sunnydale meant all sorts of horrible consequences including the Master (a powerful vampire) rising and Sunnydale basically being taken over by vampires where people had to live very carefully so as not to become vampire food happened. Also in that AU, both Willow and Xander were turned into vampires.

So in order to adhere to the word of Cordelia's wish, the only thing Anya, the vengeance demon changed for that AU was that Buffy never came to Sunnydale - she went to Ohio, I think (it's been a while). All of the characters had been exactly the same up until that point with only that one difference differentiating the AU from "real" Sunnydale. Due to circumstances in the episode - Cordelia getting AU Buffy to come to the AU Sunnydale from Ohio before she (Cordelia) gets chomped by a vampire, Anya making a mistake and her power necklace getting smashed, etc - the AU gets "undone," and Cordelia ends up back in her Sunnydale, alive again, with a now powerless Anya no longer able to grant her "wish," and Anya is demoted to "high school student" for her carelessness.  However apparently that did not entirely erase the AU, because later Anya tries to get her necklace back by using magic to access a time in that universe to get her necklace... but instead AU Vampire Willow ends up getting sucked into real Sunnydale universe - and evil wackiness ensues.

So I think that concept s what the show was trying to do here.

And the outcome doesn't bother me, I guess, because I always thought that Michael was a huge jerk and that if he had won and killed Lucifer that he'd do something to destroy the world anyway, because the hints had been there in the original series - which is one of the reasons why Castiel, Sam, and Bobby were so against Dean saying "yes." So for me, it makes perfect sense that the world would be a mess if Michael ended up in charge, because Sam and Dean weren't there to stop him.

For me, if it's a totally different universe, why would I care if there was no Sam and Dean there? Story-wise that's not very satisfying for me, because it would have less narrative meaning. So I like believing that it's a universe based off of one decision that eliminates Sam and Dean to show how Sam and Dean's huge sacrifices made a huge difference. But that's just my opinion, and I'm fine if not everyone agrees.

[Castiels Cat]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

To me this whole AW thing being centered around the absence of Sam and Dean is kind of a strawman plot all in all. I mean who ever thought Sam and Dean didn't matter when the AU was introduced?

Dean felt he didn't matter THIS season after he lost everyone AFTER the AU was introduced.

It's really squirrelly when I think about it for 5 freaking minutes as a premise.

She half assed apologized which I guess is a Winchester apology. Mary apologized for the deal making. She didn't really apologize for her specific shitty treatment of them in s12.

I didn't see it as shitty.  I saw it as Winchester.  It took the brothers 13 seasons to talk first and as far as i recall it took Sam 11 seasons to apologize to Dean about being shitty to him. She was overwhelmed and reacted.  Then she tried to fix things with grand gestures.  It's so very Winchester.  Words are the next step so I am sure she will see the boys again which means they opened  the rift and/or Dean makes a deal with Michael.  Either way the prime superverse gets an Apocalypse.

[Castiels Cat]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For me it looks like they were doing an Alternate Universe (AU) a la Buffy: The Vampire Slayer. In that show, an AU happened because of a vengeance demon. For those who don't know the show, vengeance demons grant "wishes" (you never wish for anything out loud in Buffyverse if you know what's good for you), but not necessarily in the way you think. In one episode Cordelia, being pissed at Buffy for some reason (I don't remember why, but I think it had to do with Xander) wished that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale and "Done!" that's what happened. Unfortunately for Cordelia, Buffy never coming to Sunnydale meant all sorts of horrible consequences including the Master (a powerful vampire) rising and Sunnydale basically being taken over by vampires where people had to live very carefully so as not to become vampire food happened. Also in that AU, both Willow and Xander were turned into vampires.

So in order to adhere to the word of Cordelia's wish, the only thing Anya, the vengeance demon changed for that AU was that Buffy never came to Sunnydale - she went to Ohio, I think (it's been a while). All of the characters had been exactly the same up until that point with only that one difference differentiating the AU from "real" Sunnydale. Due to circumstances in the episode - Cordelia getting AU Buffy to come to the AU Sunnydale from Ohio before she (Cordelia) gets chomped by a vampire, Anya making a mistake and her power necklace getting smashed, etc - the AU gets "undone," and Cordelia ends up back in her Sunnydale, alive again, with a now powerless Anya no longer able to grant her "wish," and Anya is demoted to "high school student" for her carelessness.  However apparently that did not entirely erase the AU, because later Anya tries to get her necklace back by using magic to access a time in that universe to get her necklace... but instead AU Vampire Willow ends up getting sucked into real Sunnydale universe - and evil wackiness ensues.

So I think that concept s what the show was trying to do here.

And the outcome doesn't bother me, I guess, because I always thought that Michael was a huge jerk and that if he had won and killed Lucifer that he'd do something to destroy the world anyway, because the hints had been there in the original series - which is one of the reasons why Castiel, Sam, and Bobby were so against Dean saying "yes." So for me, it makes perfect sense that the world would be a mess if Michael ended up in charge, because Sam and Dean weren't there to stop him.

For me, if it's a totally different universe, why would I care if there was no Sam and Dean there? Story-wise that's not very satisfying for me, because it would have less narrative meaning. So I like believing that it's a universe based off of one decision that eliminates Sam and Dean to show how Sam and Dean's huge sacrifices made a huge difference. But that's just my opinion, and I'm fine if not everyone agrees.

The Buffy comparison is apt because Wayward Sisters is essentially dealing with a BellSouth and the Temptor demon we saw was a lot like Buffy.

But however it happened  it shows us that Dean and Sam saved our world by stopping that Apocalypse and are heroes 

Yes.  And I think the writers want to make that point with this storyline as well as show us that Michael is bad bad bad.  And Dean ever saying yes to Michael for any reason is bad bad bad bad bad bad... which I think is going to happen.

It has nothing to do with Mary per se but whether her children with John get born to save the day.

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

It took the brothers 13 seasons to talk first and as far as i recall it took Sam 11 seasons to apologize to Dean about being shitty to him.

To show how opinions can differ ; ) ... I think it took less than a season. Sam gave a heartfelt and very specific apology in "Something Wicked." Actually if you want to be technical, Sam gave Dean a heartfelt apology in the Pilot episode concerning Mary... So yeah, our opinions vary greatly here.

I'm not even going to touch whether or not I think Sam was being "shitty" to Dean either, because I think we'll disagree on that point also.

[DittyDotDot]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

If this was actual!Bobby from our world. Then I would buy what they are selling***, but what her AU version did or didn't do in that world, doesn't absolve her of what her action did in her world.

That attempt to make her deal be not so bad kind of destroys Dean telling her he hated her for that deal.

I mean how dare Dean hate his mother when if she hadn't made that deal then an alternate universe was destroyed. FUCK OFF show with that crap.

I don't think it invalidates what Dean said to Mary. Dean didn't hate her because she made the deal--he understood that, he made one too--he hated her because she was hiding away from her own responsibility of making the deal and causing a lot more pain for them than she already caused them when she hid away from it the first time. 

Personally, I think it's foolish to make these deals--especially if you're a hunter and know that nothing good ever really comes of them--but I don't blame Mary for making the deal and never did. I blame her for not doing anything after she made the deal to protect her family. She probably couldn't have changed anything, but at least the effort would've shown she wasn't such a coward.

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

But there is no butterfly effect unless it's essentially an alternate timeline in THIS universe. Not a completely different universe.

That's what I think it is.  I think the Universe split in two when Mary did (and did not) make that deal.

[Ria]

44 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That's what I think it is.  I think the Universe split in two when Mary did (and did not) make that deal.

I agree. The two worlds must have been one until they branched off recently, and I think it’s clear it’s when Mary made her choice. 

Although I think there should also be other worlds out there where Sam and Dean were never born and no one broke the seals and no Lucifer freed, no Amara, no Leviathans, et al. I actually find that world more plausible but wouldn’t make the point the show is going for. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Ria

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Ria said:

I agree. The two worlds must have been one until they branched off recently, and I think it’s clear it’s when Mary made her choice. 

Isn't the idea of a multi-verse that there are infinite universes of infinite different outcomes? I mean, there should be a universe out there where Sam and Dean exist but didn't avert the apocalypse; a universe where John didn't raise Sam and Dean as hunters; a universe where only Dean exists and one where only Sam exists; a universe where Sam and Dean didn't exist and someone else averted the apocalypse; a universe where Sam and Dean only exist on a TV show called Supernatural...

I agree that events in the alternate appear to be the same up until the moment Mary made her choice, but I don't think they were one universe that split in two; they were always two different universes, IMO.