S01.E05: Shaking the Tree

[shapeshifter]

Quote

Howard discovers another side of Emily; Howard and Emily search for answers about a mysterious drop site; Aldrich and Quayle seek intel from an old friend.

And Alexander Pope makes an appearance as exposition fairy.

So this:
Meek Howard: Do you think it's possible to truly love someone without ever knowing who they really are?
Emily: Maybe we don't love someone for who they really are. Maybe love is seeing them for who they'd rather be.
—is what the show's all about.
—and is illustrated by an absent father suddenly reappearing as the perfect father.
It's interesting that both Meek Howard and Emily use the plural "they" in reference to someone which, in this case, serves to recognize the plurality/duality of people in this show (and perhaps psychologically IRL) rather than to be gender neutral. 

 

Are all the producers, executive producers, etc. in the opening credits people who are funding the show?

 

The episode title, "Shaking the Tree," refers to the fishing for intel, but perhaps also to Meek Howard shaking his family's family tree.

Edited February 20, 2018 by shapeshifter
I was sleep typing when I started the thread around 4am

[Haleth]

Still confused.

So did our Emily find out about the mole and/or the program for embedding sleeper agent children on our side?  Is that why she was injured?  Is that the info she was passing to Howard Prime?  (Why didn't she tell anyone on our side?)

Are Lotte Verbeek and the guys with her the children Alice was talking about?  Why was she so deferential to the woman that slept with Baldwin.  (That's who that was, right?  And she threatened the butcher who talked to Howard P last week?)  So they are going to assassinate people on our side? because they think our side was responsible for the flu on theirs?  Is Baldwin part of this group?

Who the heck is Claude Lambert?  Is that name supposed to mean something?

I'm fascinated by the premise and am loving JKS's performance, but I really have no idea what's going on.  Is there a synopsis anywhere that explains what I just watched?

Edited February 18, 2018 by Haleth

[scottiB]

17 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Still confused.

So did our Emily find out about the mole and/or the program for embedding sleeper agent children on our side?  Is that why she was injured?  Is that the info she was passing to Howard Prime?  (Why didn't she tell anyone on our side?)

Are Lotte Verbeek and the guys with her the children Alice was talking about?  Why was she so deferential to the woman that slept with Baldwin.  (That's who that was, right?  And she threatened the butcher who talked to Howard P last week?)  So they are going to assassinate people on our side? because they think our side was responsible for the flu on theirs?  Is Baldwin part of this group?

Who the heck is Claude Lambert?  Is that name supposed to mean something?

I'm fascinated by the premise and am loving JKS's performance, but I really have no idea what's going on.  Is there a synopsis anywhere that explains what I just watched?

Yes, Emily Alpha (our Emily) discovered that there is a mole. My guess is that was why she was injured and also she didn’t know whom to trust on our side, so the reached out to Howard Prime.  

Yes, seems as if they are students of The School (as was Baldwin, I think). It seems she was deferential to Clare because she was a superlative student at the school. Perhaps the best. 

Claude Lambert is the ambassador from the other side. He was in the last or one episode before.

Not sure that there’s a site recapping this show. 

I’m in the middle of watching Berlin Babylon on Netflix (and I hope a forum is created for that show; it’s stupendous), and Liv Lisa Fries pops up In this episode as the food counter girl that gives Baldwin the free soup. I believe she’ll be in future eps. 

[marinw]

15 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

—and is illustrated by an absent father suddenly reappearing as the perfect father.

Meek Howards speech to Badass Howard’s daughter in the episode's final scene was beautiful and wrenching.

[wanderingstar]

26 minutes ago, marinw said:

Meek Howards speech to Badass Howard’s daughter in the episode's final scene was beautiful and wrenching.

It really was. JK Simmons is a gem.

Really liked this episode, and surprised at myself for being able to follow the circuitous intrigues. So, the Fanatics on The Other Side have set up a school to train sleeper agents, and the three we saw crossing the border at the beginning of the episode are graduates of said school. I guess Baldwin was supposed to take out their others so they could slide right into their lives. 

Quayle's face during the whole meeting between Aldrich and the two Alices was priceless, particularly when Alice #2 walked in. Kudos to Harry Lloyd for those facial expressions.

I'm glad they're showing Our Howard is no good at being Howard Prime. Both Emily Prime and Pope sussed him out quickly, which makes sense given how well they know Prime.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Gillian Rosh

[scrb]

So Pope (Stephen Rea) is the guy who's controlling these assassins?  Yet he was tight with Howard Prime?

They did say that private parties in the other world wanted to wreak vengeance for the flu pandemic, which might have killed 500 million in the prime world.

One of the assassins saw a guy smoking and thought it was disgusting.  They're hyper-hygienic over there but if they don't get regular inoculations, maybe they're susceptible to infectious diseases in this world.

 

How hard could it be to narrow down the mole?  It was about 5 years ago and he/she would have Director-level clearance.  Quayle said it would be a handful of people.  But the spy guy was going through some huge library looking at personnel files?

The creator of the show, after the episode, said they wanted to show the sense of scale there or something like that.

 

Anyways, I don't think the primary way for flu infections would necessarily be other humans or dirty doorknobs.  In the black plague days, I thought rats were involved and people in those medieval cities living in close quarters, having poor hygiene, etc.

[shapeshifter]

18 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Really liked this episode, and surprised at myself for being able to follow the circuitous intrigues. So, the Fanatics on The Other Side have set up a school to train sleeper agents, and the three we saw crossing the border at the beginning of the episode are graduates of said school. I guess Baldwin was supposed to take out their others so they could slide right into their lives

Wow, I had no idea that's what we were seeing. Thanks.
But JKS is so riveting (especially as Nice Howard) that I'm not bothered by the other parts I miss.

 

4 minutes ago, scrb said:

I don't think the primary way for flu infections would necessarily be other humans or dirty doorknobs.  In the black plague days, I thought rats were involved and people in those medieval cities living in close quarters, having poor hygiene, etc

The use of masks and the empty mall reminded me of a conference I attended during the SARS pandemic. I imagine it's transmission is like SARS, but more easily transmitted and more lethal.

[Bort]

1 hour ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Really liked this episode, and surprised at myself for being able to follow the circuitous intrigues. So, the Fanatics on The Other Side have set up a school to train sleeper agents, and the three we saw crossing the border at the beginning of the episode are graduates of said school. I guess Baldwin was supposed to take out their others so they could slide right into their lives. 

We've already seen the redhead sleeper agent's other on our side: she's a secretary on the director level. As she's played by Lotte Verbeek, I was assuming she was the mole they're looking for but apparently, she's a mark to be replaced by her other.

I wonder if part of the school's graduation criteria is if their other is an enticing target. I imagine that if someone's other turns out to be a homeless street urchin, they end up getting cut.

[RealityCreator]

The way the flu is being described reminded me of the so called Spanish Flu pandemic which killed between 3-6% of the world's population in a short time and could be spread by sneezing, among other reasons:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic

 

I thought meek Howard's speech to Anna was wrenching, but in a different way than others may.  I didn't think it was at all fair to Anna to pretend to be a father who actually cares for her.  I understand Howard's interest in learning about the person Anna came to be, but the truth is, he's only supposed to be in this other world for a short time.  To give Anna false hope and false promises that he wants to be a better father to her, only to have her real father return shortly as he actually is, and without having made those promises himself, to likely reject her again with no explanation is unspeakably cruel to Anna in my book.  I understand that meek Howard hasn't thought things through, and that he's not trying to be cruel, but it doesn't seem that it should take much to think this particular scenario through and realize that it would be more important to spare Anna further unnecessary hurt than it is to satisfy his curiosity about her.   

Edited February 19, 2018 by RealityCreator

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, RealityCreator said:

 I understand that meek Howard hasn't thought things through, and that he's not trying to be cruel, but it doesn't seem that it should take much to think this particular scenario through and realize that it would be more important to spare Anna further unnecessary hurt than it is to satisfy his curiosity about her

Yes, except we first see Anna coming to Howard when she thought her mother was dying, demanding that he act like the father he wasn't, right?

[Haleth]

10 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I guess Baldwin was supposed to take out their others so they could slide right into their lives. 

Ah, this makes sense.  But how would they know who would be worth training?  Didn't Alice say the "students" were enrolled as children?

9 hours ago, scrb said:

In the black plague days, I thought rats were involved and people in those medieval cities living in close quarters, having poor hygiene, etc.

Flea bites.

9 hours ago, kariyaki said:

We've already seen the redhead sleeper agent's other on our side: she's a secretary on the director level.

We did?  I know Lotte from other shows and I don't remember seeing her here before.  When was this?

[paulvdb]

16 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Ah, this makes sense.  But how would they know who would be worth training?  Didn't Alice say the "students" were enrolled as children?

Some would probably end up in more suitable positions than others for the purpose of their operation. They'd just have to train a large enough number of kids to make sure that they'd have a good chance that at least some of them would be in positions of influence. And the others would be in supporting positions like assassins or "random" people picking up messages that are left behind in drop spots.

[Bort]

48 minutes ago, Haleth said:

We did?  I know Lotte from other shows and I don't remember seeing her here before.  When was this?

The third episode. When Quayle met up with his father-in-law on the directors floor, she was there.

[Shades of Scarlet]

Fantastic ep.  Just really superb stuff. 

Question . . . as we've already seen that Lotte Verbeek is alive in "our world," as Richard Schiff's secretary, how is replacing her supposed to work exactly?  They showed her other going through The Crossing in this episode, where her crossover would be carefully documented.  Okay, so let's say Lotte Alpha is killed so that Evil Lotte/ Lotte Prime can take her place as a sleeper.  Doesn't it immediately arouse suspicion that her other just crossed over?  And even if not for some reason, doesn’t it at least arouse suspicion (like, a flaming red flag) when the other doesn't go back??  It seems that the only way a replacement would work would be to kill a person when they were visiting the other world, then have their other cross back in their place (like the game the Howards are currently running).  Someone set me straight on this because I am genuinely confused by this plan.  

[RealityCreator]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Yes, except we first see Anna coming to Howard when she thought her mother was dying, demanding that he act like the father he wasn't, right?

Right...but the person she encounters then is not her father.  Her father hasn't been given a chance to respond the way he would actually respond at all.  As far as we have been told, he might have blown her off entirely.  She did not in any way expect or demand that he admit he'd made terrible mistakes in their relationship and that he wanted a complete do over.  At the point that Anna showed up at other Howard's door, meek Howard had to go along and act as if he was her father to continue the ruse.  I get that.  He learned along the way that other Howard has been an asshole and an absentee father.  To then, with all that information behind him, go and pursue Anna and give her false hope that her *real* father is turning over a new leaf, wants a clean slate and is ready to have a close relationship with her seems cruel to me given that her *real* father has never expressed any such intention and likely will not continue to be that kind of father once he returns - which according to what meek Howard knows will be very soon.   

Edited February 19, 2018 by RealityCreator

[Bort]

11 minutes ago, Shades of Scarlet said:

Fantastic ep.  Just really superb stuff. 

Question . . . as we've already seen that Lotte Verbeek is alive in "our world," as Richard Schiff's secretary, how is replacing her supposed to work exactly?  They showed her other going through The Crossing in this episode, where her crossover would be carefully documented.  Okay, so let's say Lotte Alpha is killed so that Evil Lotte/ Lotte Prime can take her place as a sleeper.  Doesn't it immediately arouse suspicion that her other just crossed over?  And even if not for some reason, doesn’t it at least arouse suspicion (like, a flaming red flag) when the other doesn't go back??  It seems that the only way a replacement would work would be to kill a person when they were visiting the other world, then have their other cross back in their place (like the game the Howards are currently running).  Someone set me straight on this because I am genuinely confused by this plan.  

Maybe they bring the dead body back over and say she was mugged while on our side? 

[meira.hand]

17 hours ago, scottiB said:

Not sure that there’s a site recapping this show. 

There is but the recap is a very detailed synopsis which can be too much of good thing :)

http://counterpartstarz.wikia.com/wiki/CounterpartStarz_Wiki

[Shades of Scarlet]

28 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

Maybe they bring the dead body back over and say she was mugged while on our side? 

Hmm.  Pretty sure that would lead to some very serious scrutiny of the person whose other appeared to have been killed, particularly if that person was a director's secretary like Lotte.  I don't think any sleeper agent could withstand that.  Actually, your plan might work if the replaced person was a "civilian," but almost certainly not if the replaced person worked at The Office.  And it seems those are the high-value targets.  

Also, assuming Baldwin was supposed to be offing these people to make room for their replacements, her very public killing of Marcel, Howard's coworker from the first episode, wouldn't fit this plan at all.  

[meira.hand]

21 minutes ago, RealityCreator said:

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Yes, except we first see Anna coming to Howard when she thought her mother was dying, demanding that he act like the father he wasn't, right?

Right...but the person she encounters then is not her father.  Her father hasn't been given a chance to respond the way he would actually respond at all.  As far as we have been told, he might have blown her off entirely.  She did not in any way expect or demand that he admit he'd made terrible mistakes in their relationship and that he wanted a complete do over.  At the point that Anna showed up at other Howard's door, meek Howard had to go along and act as if he was her father to continue the ruse.  I get that.  He learned along the way that other Howard has been an asshole and an absentee father.  To then, with all that information behind him, go and pursue Anna and give her false hope that her *real* father is turning over a new leaf, wants a clean slate and is ready to have a close relationship with her seems cruel to me given that her *real* father has never expressed any such intention and likely will not continue to be that kind of father once he returns - which according to what meek Howard knows will be very soon.   

Edited 14 minutes ago by RealityCreator.

Its more like a common problem with fathers that are too consumed by their work and neglect their children despite loving them but the children assume they do not care. Anna's real father never even mentioned her to meek Howard or talked about her with his Emily, so we don't really know the exact situation. It can be that the relationship was broken when she was younger and she continues to believe he does not care and as his people skills are so bad he never knew how to approach her and just given up. The way he seemed to care about meek Howard's Emily in the hospital and what he said after he found out she cheated as well, felt like the relationship was broken because of his Emily and his relationship with Anna was collateral damage. I assume meek Howard is trying to do the initial mending so that if he tells her father about it when they meet they will be able to continue where meek Howard left.

[meira.hand]

3 minutes ago, Shades of Scarlet said:

31 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

Maybe they bring the dead body back over and say she was mugged while on our side? 

Hmm.  Pretty sure that would lead to some very serious scrutiny of the person whose other appeared to have been killed, particularly if that person was a director's secretary like Lotte.  I don't think any sleeper agent could withstand that.  Actually, your plan might work if the replaced person was a "civilian," but almost certainly not if the replaced person worked at The Office.  And it seems those are the high-value targets.  

Also, assuming Baldwin was supposed to be offing these people to make room for their replacements, her very public killing of Marcel, Howard's coworker from the first episode, wouldn't fit this plan at all.  

I agree. I think there are two kinds of assassinations going on. The first is targeting people that are blocking the advance of someone they want to get in their place, like Marcel, or posing a danger by finding out something they are trying to hide (like meek Howard's Emily). This kinds of killing are not hidden and I suspect these are the people on Baldwin list. The second is the replacement program for graduates of the "school" and is much more tricky and I feel not explained at all well. For it to work there is a more obvious problem even before finding out they did not return home. It has to be done in secret with the replacement immediately stepping in. If its known x was just killed, how can you replace him/her? Also the replacement needs to be already in place. They cannot be killed in advance as the conversation in the flat seemed to indicate. 

[Bort]

5 minutes ago, meira.hand said:

The first is targeting people that are blocking the advance of someone they want to get in their place, like Marcel, or posing a danger by finding out something they are trying to hide (like meek Howard's Emily). This kinds of killing are not hidden and I suspect these are the people on Baldwin list. The second is the replacement program for graduates of the "school" and is much more tricky and I feel not explained at all well.

For that matter, Baldwin having to kill her other didn't really make sense. What was the point of that? With the events of this episode, I would have assumed that it was to assume Nadia's identity, but since Baldwin had arranged to shoot Nadia dead in the street along with other collateral damage, that wasn't a likely outcome.

[meira.hand]

I really liked the nice touch of the Go game. Alpha Howard, as is his nature, played to win, but when he realized his mistake (meek Howard failed to mention that he never won yet), made sure he will loose after all. The way so many nuances in this series are added with actions and facial expressions and no verbal explanation is very rewarding. In a strange way, despite being a completely different type of show, it reminds me a little of "Better Call Saul". There too you can have whole scenes showing instead of telling and its mesmerizing.

[Shades of Scarlet]

13 minutes ago, meira.hand said:

I agree. I think there are two kinds of assassinations going on. The first is targeting people that are blocking the advance of someone they want to get in their place, like Marcel, or posing a danger by finding out something they are trying to hide (like meek Howard's Emily). This kinds of killing are not hidden and I suspect these are the people on Baldwin list. The second is the replacement program for graduates of the "school" and is much more tricky and I feel not explained at all well. For it to work there is a more obvious problem even before finding out they did not return home. It has to be done in secret with the replacement immediately stepping in. If its known x was just killed, how can you replace him/her? Also the replacement needs to be already in place. They cannot be killed in advance as the conversation in the flat seemed to indicate. 

Right.  That was another problem with that scene.  Evil Lotte and the two dudes seemed surprised that the marks were still alive . . . but the replacement really needs to happen before the killing.  Another issue was that Clare responded by saying there were some troubles with the assassin, which seemed to be a reference to Baldwin, whose killing style is quite public.  So as of now, this makes no sense to me and I hope they explain it.  

[paulvdb]

Replacing people would require that the originals be killed without anybody noticing, so Baldwin's style seems to not fit that. It also requires that the replacements are familiar with enough details of the original person's life to not raise too much suspicion. This is especially true if they want to replace someone who knows about the two worlds or who is close to someone in the know. Regular people don't know about the two worlds so they would think of other explanations for changes in behavior or not knowing things that they should have known.

But people in the know would recognize differences like Emily and Pope immediately realizing that Howard was not their Howard. Or Baldwin in the pilot noticing that Howard didn't give a flower to the nurse which gave away that he was a replacement. Of course the nurse wasn't aware of the two worlds so her first thought would not be that Howard was not the same person. She would have tried to think of some other reason why he didn't give her a flower. And Anna in these last two episodes was another example of that.

[meira.hand]

27 minutes ago, paulvdb said:

Replacing people would require that the originals be killed without anybody noticing, so Baldwin's style seems to not fit that. It also requires that the replacements are familiar with enough details of the original person's life to not raise too much suspicion. This is especially true if they want to replace someone who knows about the two worlds or who is close to someone in the know. Regular people don't know about the two worlds so they would think of other explanations for changes in behavior or not knowing things that they should have known.

Just had an idea that may explain this. I watched the conversation of Clare with the three replacements and when they asked about personal effects of the people they will replace, she said they will have them after the killing, which they thought was already done. I assumed (like many on this thread) that they meant killing the people they want to replace. But what if they meant the people living with them (e.g. a spouse, a parent etc), who are most likely to notice the replacement and who block access to the personal effects. After they are killed, even in Baldwin public style, they can proceed with the secret killing and replacing with more chance of success.

[meira.hand]

1 hour ago, kariyaki said:

For that matter, Baldwin having to kill her other didn't really make sense. What was the point of that?

When the alpha people were looking for Baldwin, they were hoping that learning about Nadia will help them find Baldwin (for example the apartment she was hiding in was known to Nadia), which is why Clare told Baldwin to kill her. It was a safety measure to allow Baldwin to keep working on this side. The reason they had Baldwin specifically do it is probably an excuse to allow the story to explore another case of the way characters on both sides changed in different ways and add an emotional depth to the Baldwin character.

[meira.hand]

2 hours ago, Shades of Scarlet said:

Right.  That was another problem with that scene.  Evil Lotte and the two dudes seemed surprised that the marks were still alive . . . but the replacement really needs to happen before the killing.  Another issue was that Clare responded by saying there were some troubles with the assassin, which seemed to be a reference to Baldwin, whose killing style is quite public.  So as of now, this makes no sense to me and I hope they explain it

UNLESS ... the marks are not the people they want to replace but the people close to them (living together?) that need to be out of the way so the replacement will not be immediately discovered. In this case the Baldwin killing style is OK. This may also explain why access to the personal effects of the people to be replaced needs is a problem while their live-in partners are still there. Only later the killing of the people to be replace can take place in secret.

[wanderingstar]

2 hours ago, meira.hand said:

The way so many nuances in this series are added with actions and facial expressions and no verbal explanation is very rewarding.

I think this is one of my favorite aspects of the show. You have to pay attention to catch those subtleties.

I also loved finding out that Alpha Emily was cheating with Andrei. That was a bit of a surprise and just added to the messiness of the situation between the Howards and Emilies. Speaking of which, I think Our Howard is starting to fall for Emily Prime. That can't possibly end well.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Gillian Rosh

[Haleth]

Meek Howard is going to be devastated if he learns his Emily was having an affair.

[Bort]

55 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I also loved finding out that Alpha Emily was cheating with Andrei. That was a bit of a surprise and just added to the messiness of the situation between the Howards and Emilies. Speaking of which, I think Our Howard is starting to fall for Emily Prime. That can't possibly end well.

Conversely, I'm sure Howard Prime had a bit of a crush on Alpha Emily as well. This Emily was very much like his, only without the flaws (i.e. the drug problem she developed when Anna almost died from the flu, an obstacle not faced by Alpha Emily) -- until he found out about the affair.

[wanderingstar]

2 hours ago, kariyaki said:

Conversely, I'm sure Howard Prime had a bit of a crush on Alpha Emily as well. This Emily was very much like his, only without the flaws (i.e. the drug problem she developed when Anna almost died from the flu, an obstacle not faced by Alpha Emily) -- until he found out about the affair.

Yes, I'd almost forgotten about that. Howard Prime's "I thought you were better" had a tone of disappointment to it. Gonna be interesting to see where these complications land everybody by the end of the season.

[jcin617]

I still don’t understand why there’s an open border; it seems like letting people cross causes more trouble than it’s worth.  Plus, I’d require the embassy to be on the Company’s grounds, not two towns over or wherever it is, that everyone claims to be going to (or coming from) then goes somewhere else.     

Edited February 20, 2018 by jcin617

[BunnyFooFoo]

I haven’t paid attention to the credits, is this based on a book that I can read? I’m so confused. I find the show dark on my screen, maybe it’s filmed that way. It’s set in Germany (I think, never been) and occasionally has subtitles which I hate in a show. Subtitles are okay if I’m watching a foreign film. But it’s Germany (maybe) and some people are German, some British, some American, sheesh. 

The show started with little information on the background so it’s a game of catch up watching week to week. I don’t mind shows that make the viewer think, but those don’t usually do well with ratings and get cancelled. I’m wondering at this point if it’s worth continuing watching since I’m always lost and the show may not last. 

After 5 episodes there’s still more that I don’t understand than what I do. I can’t be the only one.

[RealityCreator]

15 hours ago, meira.hand said:

Its more like a common problem with fathers that are too consumed by their work and neglect their children despite loving them but the children assume they do not care. Anna's real father never even mentioned her to meek Howard or talked about her with his Emily, so we don't really know the exact situation. It can be that the relationship was broken when she was younger and she continues to believe he does not care and as his people skills are so bad he never knew how to approach her and just given up. The way he seemed to care about meek Howard's Emily in the hospital and what he said after he found out she cheated as well, felt like the relationship was broken because of his Emily and his relationship with Anna was collateral damage. I assume meek Howard is trying to do the initial mending so that if he tells her father about it when they meet they will be able to continue where meek Howard left.

Everything you say could be true about Anna assuming her real father doesn't care, but that still doesn't absolve Howard of the responsibility of butting out of Anna and her real father's relationship.  If meek Howard is doing the initial mending - where did he get the idea that that is OK, especially since he's only going to be there a few more days?  He's letting Anna get her hopes up when he has no knowledge about her real father's feelings at all.  To tell her he wants to start over implies that he wants to be there for her for the long haul - even though he, meek Howard, knows already that he, meek Howard, will not be there.  And he doesn't know at all that her real father will want to continue to be there for Anna in a close way.  That's what I think is irresponsible.

 

Of course, the writers can write it anyway they want to, and I suspect that meek Howard will be on the other side and develop real relationships with Emily Prime and Anna.  But the point is, the character meek Howard that we are watching - doesn't know that yet and is making emotional ties and promises that he already knows he can't personally keep.  That's shitty.

[Itsme]

Long time lurker here, first time poster.  I was gutted by meek Howard's scenes with Anna.  Although selfish to give her false hope knowing Badass Howard would return soon, she was the daughter he and his wife lost and this was his first chance to see and communicate with the child he and Emily never got to meet.  Look at the expressions on his face....he got to meet in the flesh what until now was just a pic on an ultrasound.  Gut wrenching scene for anyone who's miscarried.

[Mari]

On 2/19/2018 at 12:49 PM, Haleth said:

Meek Howard is going to be devastated if he learns his Emily was having an affair.

Yes.  I'm starting to feel bad for Meek Howard, because he seems to be basically a well-intentioned, gentle man that no one really respects. 

 

On 2/20/2018 at 12:16 AM, RealityCreator said:

  But the point is, the character meek Howard that we are watching - doesn't know that yet and is making emotional ties and promises that he already knows he can't personally keep.  That's shitty.

It is.  Objectively, he is writing relationship checks he can't cash, but it's a very human, even heart-breaking mistake.  MHoward seems to be devoted to his Emily.  He seems to have been gutted by her accident, and quietly shattered at meeting Anna, a version of the child they lost.  He also seemed particularly disturbed by the horrible nonrelationship she seems to have with Other Howard.  I'm not sure he can really see that Other Howard wouldn't want his relationships with Other Emily and Anna repaired.  Add into the mix that Anna is the living, breathing child he will never see, and you've got a man who's making his choices emotionally compromised.

On 2/20/2018 at 7:49 AM, Itsme said:

  Look at the expressions on his face....he got to meet in the flesh what until now was just a pic on an ultrasound.  Gut wrenching scene for anyone who's miscarried.

Yes.  Losing a child is one of the hardest things a person can go through--we go through life knowing that we could lose almost every other person in our lives, but most people don't let themselves acknowledge (until they have no other choice) that they could lose their child.  It can unmake a person.  And I know that they lost their Anna before she was born, but from what I've seen in real life, that just means that she was more real to them than she was to the rest of the world.  They still lost their child, and they didn't even get to hold her.

MHoward's decision to talk to Anna could definitely turn out very, very badly, but it is so easy to understand why he would try.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Mari
Clarification

[meira.hand]

8 hours ago, Mari said:

I'm not sure he can really see that Other Howard wouldn't want his relationships with Other Emily and Anna repaired. 

What I was trying to say in my post was that this assumption is really the way Anna it sees from a young person point of view. She clearly still hopes for a change or she would not have gone to him and dragged him to the hospital. Both Howards used to be the same person until maturity and so Prime Howard is not a sociopath and clearly loved both his wife and child in the beginning and the break came later. Isn't Alpha's Howard implicit assumption that Prime Howard would welcome a reconciliation if Alpha Howard initiated it so wrong? I also think he will tell him what he did so Prime Howard will not just charge in like a bull in a china shop. All relationships are risky and to not take a chance because it may end badly does not make sense to me, especially between parents and children. Of course his basic motivation is his emotional need but if he thought he was doing only damage I don't think he would have persisted like he did with Anna, while agreeing to not push it with Emily.

[Notwisconsin]

The question is: how long are the Howards going to be in the "wrong" universes? Prime could wind up in some cool intrigue and Alpha could get entangled in some other thing and then neither would be able to get back home, assuming that they would want to. How many portals are there? How do the others get across when it seems that the only one we've seen has security up the wazoo?

[AudienceofOne]

On 2/19/2018 at 2:15 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

Quayle's face during the whole meeting between Aldrich and the two Alices was priceless, particularly when Alice #2 walked in. Kudos to Harry Lloyd for those facial expressions.

Quayle in that scene was me during that scene. JUST ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTIONS.

On 2/19/2018 at 2:37 PM, scrb said:

Anyways, I don't think the primary way for flu infections would necessarily be other humans or dirty doorknobs.  In the black plague days, I thought rats were involved and people in those medieval cities living in close quarters, having poor hygiene, etc.

This is influenza, not the plague. Trust me, a flu outbreak of this kind would be devastating because flu is passed directly from person to person, is airborne and mutates quickly. Flu viruses are hands down the most dangerous pathogens in the world. That's why we put so much time and effort into the annual flu vaccine to try to ensure flu outbreaks don't spread.