The Soviet Union is No More: Casting News, Story Arc Info

[sistermagpie]

Saw a preview with footage during Assassination of Gianna Versace. Two previews, actually. From memory, mostly just little clips of people. Lots of Elizabeth in wigs doing badass spy stuff (stabbing a guy in the neck with a needle, sitting covered in blood, wiping off blood with VO of something like "things went bad" or were going bad--I forget the exact line--ETA: It's "things have gone bad", walking in a warehouse pointing a gun up while dressed in all black), Elizabeth kneeling and looking like she's trying to convince a guy with a gun not to shoot her. Two people walking by water--maybe Elizabeth and Paige. (Presumably all these clips are from the first half of the season too--I think that's how they usually work)

FBI scenes of everyone in the office, Stan seeming to study a picture of that couple from last year, the woman with her hockey boyfriend. The picture was one of those sketches like they have of P&E (hope I'm remember that scene right and they were sketches of them--maybe there were photos and other sketches that could be Elizabeth in disguise). Also looked like the FBI looking at a murder scene with at least one person lying face down on the ground, and a clip of what looked like two sets of feet where one person was maybe being pushed against the wall, like the way a policeman would do that to put on cuffs or whatever. A moment of Claudia looking dismayed. Oh, and there's also that FX clip where Elizabeth is explaining to Paige that it's easy to see things in black and white but things are really more shades of grey. (Which from Elizabeth usually means "If what I'm saying doesn't seem to make sense just believe me anyway because I am always right about what's black and what's white.)

For Philip, there was him driving a car in a way that was shot intensely, from below. Him in a blonde wig and mustache combo. I think another where he's walking, the way they often look when they're dropping a message. I think he's in a disguise there, but in another clip from FX he's also doing that., walking along a street but not in disguise. Philip watching Reagan on TV when Elizabeth comes home and he stands up to greet her after she checks herself in the mirror (maybe after blood wiping scene--coat was the same I think?). The Reagan clip played is the "tear down this wall" speech, the part about "openness" with "tear down this wall" repeated. Philip and Elizabeth facing each other in the kitchen on opposite sides, like emphasizing the distance between them as they're both pressed as far as possible to the opposite side. 

Clip of Paige sparring with Philip in a room we've never seen--maybe someplace at college? She kicks at him and throws a punch and he avoids both and grabs her in a choke hold. Pure speculation, but it looked from the scene like Philip was encouraging her to come at him to prove a point and she was nervously doing it--like maybe Paige is cocky about her mad defense skills and Philip was giving her a dose of reality by showing how easily a grown man could kill her. I admit I hope that's what it is because that short clip was very satisfying as a pushback against the unrealistic tiny superhero thing. Also just sick of that stuff with Paige, tbh.

On 1/16/2018 at 4:52 PM, Umbelina said:

First it was Christianity, and now it's being a spy.  I say "being a spy" rather than commitment to the glorious Soviet Cause, because there has been absolutely no clue she's bothered to even look into that.  Of course, it's been 3 years, so maybe she boned up on Elizabeth's propaganda and didn't read a newspaper or watch TV footage or research any Western views/histories, let alone read one of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn books.

 

Given that the showrunners seem to say they have set up Elizabeth as representing the Old Liners in the USSR with Philip more one of the reformers, it's like Elizabeth has not only gotten American Paige to spy for the USSR in 1987, she's recruited her to represent the 1950s USSR against the late 1980s mainstream USSR, which makes Paige even more foolish. Not that she necessarily is even up on the arguments going on in the USSR, but if she's Elizabeth's protege that's the pov she's getting.  I wouldn't be surprised if Claudia was on board there too. But in the end Russia is far more enduring than Soviet.  

 

From the Media thread:

Quote

 

What is she doing?  Maybe we are seeing the cracks in the government (it's 1984 now, I think) and she think the Center is getting soft or disorganized so she's starting to do things on her own that are like "the old days" to stay true to the original cause.     

 

 

 

In S6 it's 1987. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by sistermagpie

[ruby24]

I think it's absolutely absurd that Elizabeth is able to recruit Paige into spying in 1987, right before the USSR is about to collapse. Seriously? How much of an idiot is Paige to buy into that bullshit? Especially if Philip is over it now too.

[qtpye]

On 2/13/2018 at 2:56 PM, ruby24 said:

I think it's absolutely absurd that Elizabeth is able to recruit Paige into spying in 1987, right before the USSR is about to collapse. Seriously? How much of an idiot is Paige to buy into that bullshit? Especially if Philip is over it now too.

 

On 2/9/2018 at 5:46 PM, sistermagpie said:

Saw a preview with footage during Assassination of Gianna Versace. Two previews, actually. From memory, mostly just little clips of people. Lots of Elizabeth in wigs doing badass spy stuff (stabbing a guy in the neck with a needle, sitting covered in blood, wiping off blood with VO of something like "things went bad" or were going bad--I forget the exact line--ETA: It's "things have gone bad", walking in a warehouse pointing a gun up while dressed in all black), Elizabeth kneeling and looking like she's trying to convince a guy with a gun not to shoot her. Two people walking by water--maybe Elizabeth and Paige. (Presumably all these clips are from the first half of the season too--I think that's how they usually work)

FBI scenes of everyone in the office, Stan seeming to study a picture of that couple from last year, the woman with her hockey boyfriend. The picture was one of those sketches like they have of P&E (hope I'm remember that scene right and they were sketches of them--maybe there were photos and other sketches that could be Elizabeth in disguise). Also looked like the FBI looking at a murder scene with at least one person lying face down on the ground, and a clip of what looked like two sets of feet where one person was maybe being pushed against the wall, like the way a policeman would do that to put on cuffs or whatever. A moment of Claudia looking dismayed. Oh, and there's also that FX clip where Elizabeth is explaining to Paige that it's easy to see things in black and white but things are really more shades of grey. (Which from Elizabeth usually means "If what I'm saying doesn't seem to make sense just believe me anyway because I am always right about what's black and what's white.)

For Philip, there was him driving a car in a way that was shot intensely, from below. Him in a blonde wig and mustache combo. I think another where he's walking, the way they often look when they're dropping a message. I think he's in a disguise there, but in another clip from FX he's also doing that., walking along a street but not in disguise. Philip watching Reagan on TV when Elizabeth comes home and he stands up to greet her after she checks herself in the mirror (maybe after blood wiping scene--coat was the same I think?). The Reagan clip played is the "tear down this wall" speech, the part about "openness" with "tear down this wall" repeated. Philip and Elizabeth facing each other in the kitchen on opposite sides, like emphasizing the distance between them as they're both pressed as far as possible to the opposite side. 

Clip of Paige sparring with Philip in a room we've never seen--maybe someplace at college? She kicks at him and throws a punch and he avoids both and grabs her in a choke hold. Pure speculation, but it looked from the scene like Philip was encouraging her to come at him to prove a point and she was nervously doing it--like maybe Paige is cocky about her mad defense skills and Philip was giving her a dose of reality by showing how easily a grown man could kill her. I admit I hope that's what it is because that short clip was very satisfying as a pushback against the unrealistic tiny superhero thing. Also just sick of that stuff with Paige, tbh.

Given that the showrunners seem to say they have set up Elizabeth as representing the Old Liners in the USSR with Philip more one of the reformers, it's like Elizabeth has not only gotten American Paige to spy for the USSR in 1987, she's recruited her to represent the 1950s USSR against the late 1980s mainstream USSR, which makes Paige even more foolish. Not that she necessarily is even up on the arguments going on in the USSR, but if she's Elizabeth's protege that's the pov she's getting.  I wouldn't be surprised if Claudia was on board there too. But in the end Russia is far more enduring than Soviet.  

 

From the Media thread:

In S6 it's 1987. 

I know the writer's think we are supposed to be super impressed with Paige, but I have always found her to be queen of the dorks and not particularly bright.  Kerri Russell can pull off tiny little bad ass woman awesomely...Paige not so much.

I am not trying to be cruel because it makes perfect sense.  Elizabeth and Phillip grew up under much harder circumstances and had to become incredibly smart and resilient to survive.  Page would not last five minutes as a spy.  The girl is less savvy than a house pet and all her "training to fight scenes" last season just made me laugh.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I am not trying to be cruel because it makes perfect sense.  Elizabeth and Phillip grew up under much harder circumstances and had to become incredibly smart and resilient to survive.  Page would not last five minutes as a spy.  The girl is less savvy than a house pet and all her "training to fight scenes" last season just made me laugh.

I've seen two clips with Paige in them from next season and for all the ads about how she's "more confident!!!" now, those admittedly tiny clips both happened to feature scenes where the actress was delivering her lines in that same halting, hesitant way, or looking worried under big glasses and a hat because she was being a spy.

LOL. Makes me imagine somebody having to describe her: Her eyebrows point up towards the middle of her forehead. Also she often speaks as if she's figuring out what to say while she says it. I think she thinks that makes her sound spontaneous. Go get her, officer!

[qtpye]

24 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I've seen two clips with Paige in them from next season and for all the ads about how she's "more confident!!!" now, those admittedly tiny clips both happened to feature scenes where the actress was delivering her lines in that same halting, hesitant way, or looking worried under big glasses and a hat because she was being a spy.

LOL. Makes me imagine somebody having to describe her: Her eyebrows point up towards the middle of her forehead. Also she often speaks as if she's figuring out what to say while she says it. I think she thinks that makes her sound spontaneous. Go get her, officer!

Yes, officer look for the incredibly tiny nervous girl who seems to be playing spy dress up like she was ten.  Good lord, can you imagine Paige trying to seduce someone like Elizabeth or Phillip?

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Yes, officer look for the incredibly tiny nervous girl who seems to be playing spy dress up like she was ten.  Good lord, can you imagine Paige trying to seduce someone like Elizabeth or Phillip?

Maybe that's why they built in that whole "perv-magnet" aspect to her character. She just has to be there and a skeevy guy will come onto her.

It's funny because she just really does, it seem, still radiate distress. I've always had to suspend my disbelief that characters weren't asking Paige "What's wrong?!" in many scenes because her whole affect is so tragic. Maybe people wouldn't think she was spying if they saw her somewhere but she's definitely somebody who might have somebody coming up to her and asking "Are you supposed to be here?" or "Can I help you?" no matter where she was.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Maybe that's why they built in that whole "perv-magnet" aspect to her character. She just has to be there and a skeevy guy will come onto her.

It's funny because she just really does, it seem, still radiate distress. I've always had to suspend my disbelief that characters weren't asking Paige "What's wrong?!" in many scenes because her whole affect is so tragic. Maybe people wouldn't think she was spying if they saw her somewhere but she's definitely somebody who might have somebody coming up to her and asking "Are you supposed to be here?" or "Can I help you?" no matter where she was.

True, and furthermore it is perfectly okay.  Just because your parents are good at something does not mean that you are going to be as well.  There is nothing in Paige that will make her a good spy and it does not matter that her parents are world class spies.  This is something Phillip totally recognizes and Elizabeth refuses to accept.

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, qtpye said:

This is something Phillip totally recognizes and Elizabeth refuses to accept.

I really hope the writers aren't also refusing to accept it. Sometimes it seems like they push a version of Paige that just isn't there in the performance or the writing. Sometimes it seems like they do seem to be saying that because she has Elizabeth's basic desire to be morally superior and fix the world, the spying stuff will just fall into place like it did for Elizabeth.

But then, otoh, it does seem like they portray Henry as much more like his father, i.e., a person with more natural spy skills pre-training. He's been a better liar since the beginning, he's always been the one who kept secrets (and when he gets caught he gets better at keeping secrets), the one who tries out different personas. Plus he's even got the skills to potentially get the kind of position Elizabeth apparently imagines Paige can get--he's got the academic abilities, social savvy and ambition to get himself into the corridors of power all on his own at 13 while Paige is still following the nearest and most confident role model without question. First her local youth pastor, now her mom. 

[Umbelina]

I think that's EXACTLY what it is!

The writers refuse to accept that practically all of the viewers are not seeing what THEY see in Paige.

We don't care about her.  We don't believe her.  It makes no sense and the actress doesn't have the chops to MAKE it make sense.  I don't know if any actress could, but I do know it would take someone extremely talented to pull this absurd storyline off, and Holly isn't.  In a master actress' hands? MAYBE.  Jennifer Lawrence when she was that age?  Probably. 

It seems that they had their ending in mind, and despite everything "the public" and most of the extremely kind reviewers have said?  They will stick with it no matter what, instead of adjusting to the limitations of the actress, and pivoting, they plow stubbornly on using an even bigger shovel to what?  Heap on the manure?

I have no hopes at all for the finale season at this point, so in a way?  All they can do is better than I expect, so maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.  Maybe the huge Paige-based boffo ending will be worth it?  Nah.  Complete suspension of disbelief is not my thing.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The writers refuse to accept that practically all of the viewers are not seeing what THEY see in Paige.

 

The constant "fight-training" scenes seem like a cheat way to say she's badass even though she doesn't look badass when fighting. But I don't even trust at this point that the clip of Philip making quick work of her punch and kick routine isn't setting her up for some Elizabeth moment where she overpowers him. Or somebody his size. 

I even forgot to mention above that Henry's already ahead in that area too--he had his father's ability to take down a bigger opponent by instinct as well. So even with so much time focused on Paige being badass she's still the teacher's pet of the karate class who's practiced drills with the same person in a safe environment for years vs. Henry who's ruthless and fights dirty to make up for disadvantages. 

There's a quote in the preview where she's telling Philip she doesn't think she's "like him" which sounds like the same self-obsessed Paige as always, sadly contemplating who she is. I guess they could spent a lot of time on Paige's actual political leanings now in a way that's believable, but that would be a big change from the way she's ever engaged with life in the past. 

[qtpye]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think that's EXACTLY what it is!

The writers refuse to accept that practically all of the viewers are not seeing what THEY see in Paige.

We don't care about her.  We don't believe her.  It makes no sense and the actress doesn't have the chops to MAKE it make sense.  I don't know if any actress could, but I do know it would take someone extremely talented to pull this absurd storyline off, and Holly isn't.  In a master actress' hands? MAYBE.  Jennifer Lawrence when she was that age?  Probably. 

It seems that they had their ending in mind, and despite everything "the public" and most of the extremely kind reviewers have said?  They will stick with it no matter what, instead of adjusting to the limitations of the actress, and pivoting, they plow stubbornly on using an even bigger shovel to what?  Heap on the manure?

I have no hopes at all for the finale season at this point, so in a way?  All they can do is better than I expect, so maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.  Maybe the huge Paige-based boffo ending will be worth it?  Nah.  Complete suspension of disbelief is not my thing.

 

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

The constant "fight-training" scenes seem like a cheat way to say she's badass even though she doesn't look badass when fighting. But I don't even trust at this point that the clip of Philip making quick work of her punch and kick routine isn't setting her up for some Elizabeth moment where she overpowers him. Or somebody his size. 

I even forgot to mention above that Henry's already ahead in that area too--he had his father's ability to take down a bigger opponent by instinct as well. So even with so much time focused on Paige being badass she's still the teacher's pet of the karate class who's practiced drills with the same person in a safe environment for years vs. Henry who's ruthless and fights dirty to make up for disadvantages. 

There's a quote in the preview where she's telling Philip she doesn't think she's "like him" which sounds like the same self-obsessed Paige as always, sadly contemplating who she is. I guess they could spent a lot of time on Paige's actual political leanings now in a way that's believable, but that would be a big change from the way she's ever engaged with life in the past. 

I agree with both of these posts.  The writers have so fallen in love with their vision that they refuse to acknowledge how laughably unbelievable that vision is for the actress they have chosen.

As far as casting, they hit home runs with Elizabeth and Phillip, but current Paige will never be able to carry off this story line.

If the finale is a fast forward to 10 years where we see Paige as a successful spy in the United States for Post Soviet Russia, I am going to scream out loud.  I hope one of my favorite shows (with the exception of tedium that was last season) does not end that badly.

[methodwriter85]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

 

As far as casting, they hit home runs with Elizabeth and Phillip, but current Paige will never be able to carry off this story line.

You never really know what you'll get when you cast child stars. Sometimes a child actor will grow and develop into something special. Sometimes they don't. (See: Stella Lennon- pretty girl but not much of an actress.) Holly definitely hasn't been helped by the fact that they basically kept Paige in the same sadsack characterization for years instead of writing her as a more dynamic person. She might have done better on something like Degrassi.

It could be worse, though. You could be dealing with Jessica Pare eating up Mad Men for two seasons because she reminded Matt Weiner of a sexy 60's French film star he idolized. The showrunners there were also pretty tone deaf about it.

[qtpye]

13 minutes ago, methodwriter85 said:

You never really know what you'll get when you cast child stars. Sometimes a child actor will grow and develop into something special. Sometimes they don't. (See: Stella Lennon- pretty girl but not much of an actress.) Holly definitely hasn't been helped by the fact that they basically kept Paige in the same sadsack characterization for years instead of writing her as a more dynamic person. She might have done better on something like Degrassi.

It could be worse, though. You could be dealing with Jessica Pare eating up Mad Men for two seasons because she reminded Matt Weiner of a sexy 60's French film star he idolized. The showrunners there were also pretty tone deaf about it.

So, true.  I am getting PTSD, from how the show runners insisted on making her happen.  JP was very beautiful, but her Zou Bisou Bisou dance had all the appeal of dancing toothy giraffe.  I certainly hope that the last season is not all Paige all the time.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

As far as casting, they hit home runs with Elizabeth and Phillip, but current Paige will never be able to carry off this story line.

And they must have cast this actress for the vulnerability and mealy-ness because that has absolutely been the dominant note in her character since the pilot and it hasn’t changed as she’s grown up. Even when Paige was challenging her parents it was from a vulnerable position—the actors had a running joke that they’d yell FUCK YOU, PAIGE! at the end of scenes because it would be so terrible to yell at such a Bambi-like creature. It’s not just that she has big eyes and is small. It’s her performance and the writing too. Henry and Paige have both grown but both kids are still about the basic qualities the two actors presented in S1.

If they played it up that this isn’t actually working the way Paige and Elizabeth believe it is inside their little fantasy world, that could be interesting. But if it's just that garage self-defense lessons and vague platitudes about making the world better (by getting the Soviets bio-weapons to use in Afghanistan) actually can work the same as a lifetime of preparation...it’s actually kind of boring. Paige is Batgirl because she and Elizabeth want her to be. Elizabeth adds yet another success to her record, never has to question anything, she can recruit her daughter and not sacrifice anything. (Maybe the inconvenient kid conveniently got out of her way by leaving so she manages to avoid the whole "my child's a loyal American and I love him" conflict.) The real tragedy was that the USSR let her down when she was on the verge of making Paige the first US president who could fight off ninjas single-handed and bring about world peace and an end to hunger.

8 minutes ago, methodwriter85 said:

It could be worse, though. You could be dealing with Jessica Pare eating up Mad Men for two seasons because she reminded Matt Weiner of a sexy 60's French film star he idolized. The showrunners there were also pretty tone deaf about it.

LOL. Yipes, yeah. But to use another MM example just for contrast, had they cast a 13-year-old Kiernan Shipka as Paige, whatever one thinks about either actress' talent or lack thereof, it would have been clear from the beginning that however soft and spoiled she was thanks to her upbringing, or how lacking in confidence she was at 13, Paige could hold her own. They made a really clear, strong choice to go with HT. I don't think you can cast that far in that direction and reasonably expect that time alone will make her exude strength. HT had plenty of opportunities to show flashes of that in the last 5 seasons and didn't. (I know one could assume she's directed to play it this way, but that seems absurd.)

[kokapetl]

On 15/02/2018 at 9:59 AM, sistermagpie said:

Maybe that's why they built in that whole "perv-magnet" aspect to her character. She just has to be there and a skeevy guy will come onto her.

It's funny because she just really does, it seem, still radiate distress. I've always had to suspend my disbelief that characters weren't asking Paige "What's wrong?!" in many scenes because her whole affect is so tragic. Maybe people wouldn't think she was spying if they saw her somewhere but she's definitely somebody who might have somebody coming up to her and asking "Are you supposed to be here?" or "Can I help you?" no matter where she was.

“I’m so embarrased, I’m with Janet Jackson’s dance troupe, and I somehow got separated from her! She’s meeting Nancy in the blue/yellow/whatever room in 5 minutes, and I just gotta be there! Gee, thanks mister!

[Dev F]

On 2/15/2018 at 9:22 PM, methodwriter85 said:

It could be worse, though. You could be dealing with Jessica Pare eating up Mad Men for two seasons because she reminded Matt Weiner of a sexy 60's French film star he idolized. The showrunners there were also pretty tone deaf about it.

Except that's not what happened on Mad Men. Paré's character played exactly the role she'd been intended to play since the beginning of the season in which she was introduced. By the time she appears in Dr. Faye's focus group in episode 4, she's already being set up as one of Don's two opposing love interests for the season: while Faye wheedles and cajoles to get the women to talk about Peggy's idea of beauty routine as a ritual, but ultimately throws up her hands and concludes that all they really want is to get married, Megan is the one woman in the group who actually does talk about her beauty regimen as a ritual, and she seems to arrive at it naturally and effortlessly.

Heck, that was pretty clearly Matt Weiner's plan for the character since before Jessica Paré was even cast. Weiner mentions in the DVD commentary track for the S4 premiere that he originally intended for Megan to be the very first person we see when Don's new agency is introduced, sitting at the receptionist's desk out front, but he had to abandon that idea because the role wasn't filled in time.

Suffice it to say, I don't think the Megan situation on Mad Men is being repeated with Paige, but I do think the fan reaction to Paige is pretty similar to the reaction to Megan, in the sense that a totally defensible belief that a character doesn't work has transformed into an insistence that no one else could possibly think the character works, and the writers must have some irrational ulterior motive for continuing to focus on her.

Me, I've never really had a problem with Megan or Paige. Neither one is a favorite character of mine on their respective shows, but I think both give perfectly respectable performances in similarly thankless roles, and I appreciate how each one propels the storyline of the main character(s), which is the only thing I really care about.

Moreover, the notion that everyone everywhere self-evidently hates Paige is not something that I've seen reflected more broadly among fans and critics outside this message board. I wonder if it's specific to this community for some random reason -- like how, say, Spike was one of the most popular characters on Buffy and Angel, but if you read the old TWOP boards you'd get the sense that everyone hated him. (And in that case it was a weird idiosyncrasy with which I wholeheartedly agreed!)

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

Moreover, the notion that everyone everywhere self-evidently hates Paige is not something that I've seen reflected more broadly among fans and critics outside this message board. I wonder if it's specific to this community for some random reason -- like how, say, Spike was one of the most popular characters on Buffy and Angel, but if you read the old TWOP boards you'd get the sense that everyone hated him. (And in that case it was a weird idiosyncrasy with which I wholeheartedly agreed!)

I think that's pretty common on different boards. I don't know whether it's that people just seek out boards that they prefer-or maybe it's that the conversation colors the way you see the show. I know sometimes even when I don't agree with an idea I'll watch the show on the lookout for things that will reinforce that idea in others. Both in terms of preemptively defending my position or rolling my eyes at stuff I know will be used against it!

With Megan we also have the benefit of hindsight and in that way I actually see a lot of similarities between Megan and Paige. That is, I know for me I definitely felt like there was TMM in S5 Mad Men, and that made me fear that the show was heading to something about Megan that seemed terrible and I'm sure I loudly worried about it at the time. But looking at it now, it's very clear not only what Megan was there to do but why she had to be presented as so perfect during that part of S5 where she reminded a lot of people of Pootchie. Now I actually quite like thinking about Megan as a character, though I still agree with a lot of what I thought before.

With Paige, I think the reason for her prominence has always been clear and she's always been central to the show. Even back in S1 it's Paige who takes the lead in the separation storyline in terms of the family. But now we're facing a season that's 3 years ahead, the show's very first hints featured Paige the spy as if that's the big draw so I think it's natural that everybody's going to work out their anxieties about the worst thing they could imagine. And it's not like there's no evidence at all for those anxieties. 

At the same time, though, you could make the argument that the reason Paige seems so prominent in everyone's ideas about the last season is that a) the Paige conflict is one that's been consistent so it's something everyone can follow from past seasons and b) it's just the easiest to highlight. The show's always struggled with being not the kind of thing people expect from a spy show and Paige's storyline, especially this season, is the closest thing to it while the Philip/Elizabeth drama no doubt requires more explanation. We see Elizabeth marching around doing the usual badass spy stuff--violence, killing, wigs, more violence, steely gazes and lectures about what must be done, being told she's amazing. But maybe the bigger question mark is what the hell's going on with Philip? He's seen doing actual real world spy stuff in terms of being in disguise, dropping messages and meeting people on benches...but why, since he's retired? Who's he meeting with? Is he spying on Elizabeth? Is Oleg taking to him? Is that Oleg on the bench--iow, finally bringing the Russia and US storylines together again? Did Philip's retirement put him in some unique position to be used by Oleg or the forces of reform? Is that why it was necessary to knock him out in S5? But we can't really talk about it since we can't know what it is. And also, frankly, it seems like for a long time to me that "family" has been defined by Elizabeth making Paige like her and Paige pretty much wanting to be like her. Elizabeth/parenthood and Elizabeth/Paige has always been prominent. If you were interested in other aspects of the family imo you've got reason to be a bit resentful. If you're a viewer who really likes Paige you're pretty much getting what you want on the show, so what's to complain about?

Edited February 19, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Bannon]

This really has the potential to be the worst final season of any show with a full run, that also had the benefit of being a show with a great premise. I fear they are going to have a scene where Paige, all 105 pounds of her, stomps the snot out of a physically capable 200 pound man. All from her part time garage training from Killa' Mama. Egads.

 They really oughta' also have a scene where Stan doesn't see a glass door, walks face first into it, which causes a ceiling tile to fall on the robot, which then suddenly careens out of control, accelerating to 30 miles per hour causing massive casualties at FBI counterintelligence HQ. That'd be more entertaining than this show's typical white collar mayhem, where some schlub goes back to the office to pick up some paperwork, so P&E have to terminate him with Extreme Prejudice.

At this point, I think hoping for some unintentional laughs is the most realistic option. 

Edited February 19, 2018 by Bannon

[VCRTracking]

Man, I just hope Holly Taylor doesn't read these boards. Yikes.

Re: Megan on Mad Men,  it was clear to me she was only there to serve Don Draper's overall arc. She never took away more favorite characters' screentime as fans complained because everything about her was how it concerned Don. She never had storylines on her own like the other characters such as Don's ex-wife and daughter. Once Don gave her that million dollar check in their divorce in the second episode of the 7-episode final season she was gone for good and she never even had a bit in the montage at the end of the finale.

I thought about Stranger Things which features amazing child actors, probably the best in the business. Because his character Will was missing through most of the first season, Noah Schnapp didn't get much attention like Millie Bobby Brown and the others did when the show became a breakout hit. The recent season though, he knocked it out of the park. He was phenomenal and the season's MVP. The things he goes through, the stuff he had to play would be daunting for an adult actor. I mean he should have been nominated for an Emmy. The creators, the Duffer Brothers said it was having a Ferrari in the garage the year before. They didn't know what they had.

Now either Paige is a way for the writers to tell the story they want to tell concerning Phillip and Elizabeth and the viewers are just going to suffer through it, or they realized Holly can do more than just play the vulnerable, sad-sack teenager and can be believably badass and amazing as a spy.

The negativity here makes me hope for the latter.

Edited February 20, 2018 by VCRTracking

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

She never had storylines on her own like the other characters such as Don's ex-wife and daughter.

Sure she did. Her acting career stuff was about her and then in S6 we followed her into the soap world and dealt with the producer's relationship with her. It connected to Don, but so did lots of things with Betty etc.

I would actually say she was ultimately a more independent character than Paige is in terms of how she's used on the show. Paige's character, imo, is much more directly tied to her parents. Even her most independent exploration of life--when she was into the church--was often about shoving it in their faces or their reactions to it. Even her romance had a lot to do with her parents. Once she got beyond stuff she could say to Matthew about her parents there was nothing there.

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

or they realized Holly can do more than just play the vulnerable, sad-sack teenager and can be believably badass and amazing as a spy.

According to a lot of critics she's already proved she's got an amazing range and is one of the most amazing actors on the show. I know I, personally, probably would have talked about it a lot less if not for that.

Edited February 20, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Ellaria]

Endings for shows are always difficult, for fans and showrunners. Everyone is passionate about the characters and has a vision of what they think "should happen." For better or worse, only the showrunners get to actually execute their vision for the end of the show.

To me, they have set-up "Paige as Junior Spy" for a long time...certainly as far back as the finale of S2 when Jared murdered his parents. This is and has been their vision for the end. As much as I hate this storyline, I applaud them (I suppose) for creating a narrative and sticking with it, in spite of criticism from fans and critics. Maybe it will work. Maybe it will not.

My opinion, of course, but I don't think that this storyline has been well-executed. I'm not sure that Holly Taylor is/was up to the task as an actress but, assuming that this was their plan from the start, they had ample time to work with her. The writing and direction have not done her favors over the years and have not highlighted her strengths as an actress or compensated for her weaknesses.

In many ways, Paige is an underdeveloped character. Beyond the "teenager trying to find meaning and purpose," we know little about her. They gave us the largely dreadful Pastor Tim storyline. Then, there was the relationship with Matthew that seemed to do nothing more than make Stan happy. Since she has been asked to carry much of the narrative weight of the last few seasons, shouldn't we see have seen her doing more than worrying and training in the garage? Instead, viewers are left wondering why P&E have not noticed that Henry is probably better-suited to the task of being a junior spy.

While they were focusing so intently on Paige, other - possibly more interesting storylines - have received short shrift. The goings-on in the Rezidentura disappeared. Instead, we got Nina and the scientist and Oleg wandering the streets at night. Stan's storyline in recent years has focused primarily on his romantic life. They even teased us with Renee and "is she or isn't she a spy" nonsense.  And now we have a 3-year (?) time jump which will effectively kill most of the suspense built during the prior seasons. 

Sigh...I am still holding out hope that this show will surprise us in a good way. 
 

Edited February 21, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[VCRTracking]

44 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Sure she did. Her acting career stuff was about her and then in S6 we followed her into the soap world and dealt with the producer's relationship with her. It connected to Don, but so did lots of things with Betty etc.

She never had a story on her own the way Betty did with the hippies in Greenwich village or the whole thing with Glen which never connected with Don. It was weird seeing them finally meet in that episode where Lane killed himself. Megan's acting career was still about how it effected Don. Even her stuff with her mom eventually only led to her marrying Roger.

[Umbelina]

It's not just the actress' limitations though, in either case.

Briefly, in Mad Men's case?  I honestly feel that Weiner was acting out his own slightly perverted sexual fantasies on Mad Men.  That included the stupid affair with the doctors wife who wore a head scarf like the whore when he was a child etc. etc. and the hookers slapping him, and the trophy young second wife.  I thought Pare was FINE, the writing however?  Sucked.

With Paige, she simply has shown NO range, she basically had 3 expressions and tones of voice in all 5 years.  Now, that could be poor direction as well.  Heaven knows "Sally" got fantastic direction on Mad Men, because she was fairly terrible in the made for TV Flowers in the Attic.  With another director?  Maybe Holly would shine.  In this?  She's no where near a good enough actress to pull off such a stupid story line.

Which brings us to the writing.  GOOD writers ADJUST, especially in TV!  They have SO much time to see what they have, and what works and doesn't, and change things up.  THESE writers stubbornly stuck to a story that DID NOT WORK on any level.  Acting/Directing/Writing.

1. Layfayette was supposed to die first season True Blood,
2. Jesse was supposed to die first season of Breaking Bad. 
3. Brody was supposed to die first season of Homeland.

4. Julianna Margulies was supposed to die first season of ER.

Those were off the top of my head, but there are many others:  http://www.tvguide.com/galleries/characters-supposed-to-die-1072525/8/

When you are telling a really stupid story?  You better have an outstanding actress that can make you want to suspend disbelief, or a charismatic and super-talented actress (say a young Jennifer Lawrence or Anna Paquin, etc.) to actually make you believe it, no matter how ridiculous.  VERY few young actresses could pull it off.  Holly Taylor is not one of them.

The idea that this supposedly brilliant student (I never even bought that part, she seems clueless to me) wouldn't DO HER OWN RESEARCH is ridiculous.  That she would suddenly stop spying when she decided to become a spy?  More stupidity.  SO many news stories, books, other things were out, people were telling their tales after escaping or being politically released from the USSR.  I'm supposed to buy that Paige never read ANY OF THAT?  Oh please.

I hope the writers and Holly shock my pants off and make me eat my words, and prove me to be completely WRONG about all of it.  I really mean that.  I wish so much for this show, which I've LOVED, gets back to the amazing tension and near-greatness of earlier seasons.  I WANT so much to be wrong here.

 

Sadly, I don't think I am. 

ETA one way I think they could have corrected these issues while sticking to the original cast is to switch it up that Paige/Philip were connected, and Elizabeth/Henry were.  Yes, it would require adjustment, but even in small scenes, "Henry" conveyed SO much with his subtle and appropriate reactions, as well as his voice/body.  I think he might have been able to carry this "kid as spy" story much more than "Paige."  It could have been done, and what's more, I think Paige would probably shine more with Philip, and be closer to his ideas, since, she's supposed to be the smart one and all.

Someone's gonna die.  Paige or Elizabeth, which will propel the other into something stupid, it seems so clear to me at this moment.  Otherwise, WHY wouldn't the writers cut their losses and adjust?

Edited February 20, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

ETA one way I think they could have corrected these issues while sticking to the original cast is to switch it up that Paige/Philip were connected, and Elizabeth/Henry were.  Yes, it would require adjustment, but even in small scenes, "Henry" conveyed SO much with his subtle and appropriate reactions, as well as his voice/body.  I think he might have been able to carry this "kid as spy" story much more than "Paige."  It could have been done, and what's more, I think Paige would probably shine more with Philip, and be closer to his ideas, since, she's supposed to be the smart one and all.

I think a reason the show would never do that is the point was never that Paige was supposed to be a naturally good spy, but that Elizabeth had to see Paige as herself and that doesn't work with Henry. Elizabeth wouldn't see a son as fragile, as needing to be "strong" by joining something bigger than herself and punching things. Henry couldn't recreate exactly Elizabeth's obsessive relationship with her own mother. The important things, it always seemed to me, was the shared self-righteousness, the shared natural truthfulness, the desire to fix the world while not liking people that much, the tendency to wander around lost without a big crusade for direction and confidence, hopefully complete with a book of rules and authority figures to impress, etc. Even when Paige got interested in world events I assume she got her reading list from Pastor Tim. 

It seems like they've been moving Paige into spy-mode by making Elizabeth a stronger authority figure than either Tim or Philip. When Paige asked Elizabeth sad questions Elizabeth's answers were always confident and dismissive--everybody lies, everybody holds something back, you can be strong if you learn this stuff, I never doubt what I do. IF Paige says it's "not her" Elizabeth just basically says it will be. Paige couldn't handle Philip's outlook, which was almost always some version of "Sorry this does suck. I don't have a simple answer. But your future is yours to make with what you've got." It seems like Paige just embraced the idea that she was cut off from a normal life anyway so she's got an excuse to follow mom instead. 

Henry from the beginning was pretty much the antithesis of that--total self-starter. He's got more raw materials as a spy (better liar, better secret keeper, ruthless when necessary, tries on different personas). He seems to experience his family life as stable and relatively drama-free, a secure spot from which he can explore the world as he wants. Capable of enjoying little things in life. All of which the show seems to hint is exactly like Philip, but that makes him harder for Elizabeth to control or plan around, really.

What surprised me, tbh, is that this made the show decide to make Henry such a non-presence. He never has any conversations with his parents. Are they just recreating both parents' childhoods where Elizabeth is forever 14 with her mom and Philip doesn't know his father? That's sad on paper but tosses out a character you'd think would be important for a show about a family, with an actor that's clearly up to the task as much as his sister. (They trusted him with that S2 monologue and he did fine.) It's not like they've even been interested in exploring what it's like being the kid on the outside. 

6 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Instead, viewers are left wondering why P&E have not noticed that Henry is probably better-suited to the tak of being a junior spy.

It's funny they haven't ever said it even as a joke. Philip seems to basically be scared of closing off any options of who Henry could be (projection?) and Elizabeth's attitude seems summed up with "That kid's nuts." Has the Centre dropped their plans for all that? Claudia's not going to just tell Elizabeth to bring in Henry? 

[Umbelina]

The so-far waste of Henry is just more bad writing.

Yes, I get the whole trite "Paige is a junior me" crap.  It's stupid writing, horrid casting, and either Holly Taylor should immediately enroll in college to get a job she's actually suited for, OR, it's terrible directing.

So frustrating, on every level.

[Ellaria]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It seems like they've been moving Paige into spy-mode by making Elizabeth a stronger authority figure than either Tim or Philip. When Paige asked Elizabeth sad questions Elizabeth's answers were always confident and dismissive--everybody lies, everybody holds something back, you can be strong if you learn this stuff, I never doubt what I do. IF Paige says it's "not her" Elizabeth just basically says it will be. Paige couldn't handle Philip's outlook, which was almost always some version of "Sorry this does suck. I don't have a simple answer. But your future is yours to make with what you've got." It seems like Paige just embraced the idea that she was cut off from a normal life anyway so she's got an excuse to follow mom instead. 

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The idea that this supposedly brilliant student (I never even bought that part, she seems clueless to me) wouldn't DO HER OWN RESEARCH is ridiculous.  That she would suddenly stop spying when she decided to become a spy?  More stupidity.  SO many news stories, books, other things were out, people were telling their tales after escaping or being politically released from the USSR.  I'm supposed to buy that Paige never read ANY OF THAT?  Oh please.

I agree that the focus on Paige serves to emphasize Elizabeth's character and back story. And perhaps that's part of my problem with the storyline. Paige seems to exist not as a complete character but as a plot device that reflects back on Elizabeth and her commitment to the cause.

Why does Paige feel that she can no longer have a "normal life?" Because her parents are spies? We never really saw anything to indicate that she was uncomfortable around her peers (other than Matthew) or teachers. It has been depicted largely as an internal struggle. It may have helped to show her in class with everyone debating world politics, oppression, etc. 

Perhaps we will see it now since she is in college but I would have liked to see the journey that brought her to the present. Yes, we have not seen her doing any independent research about world politics. She asks Mom and Dad questions in that nervous voice and does little beyond that to form an opinion. How much does she really know about the business of spying? Is she aware that murder and honeytraps are part of the job? So far, this show has not given me sufficient reasons to accept why Paige would follow Mom down this path. 

[FormerMod-a1]

Let's get back to spoilers here, please.  We've strayed away from Paige discussion as it relates to spoilers and into a general more in depth show discussion which should go in one of the many other threads we have.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I agree that the focus on Paige serves to emphasize Elizabeth's character and back story. And perhaps that's part of my problem with the storyline. Paige seems to exist not as a complete character but as a plot device that reflects back on Elizabeth and her commitment to the cause.

Why does Paige feel that she can no longer have a "normal life?" Because her parents are spies? We never really saw anything to indicate that she was uncomfortable around her peers (other than Matthew) or teachers. It has been depicted largely as an internal struggle. It may have helped to show her in class with everyone debating world politics, oppression, etc. 

Perhaps we will see it now since she is in college but I would have liked to see the journey that brought her to the present. Yes, we have not seen her doing any independent research about world politics. She asks Mom and Dad questions in that nervous voice and does little beyond that to form an opinion. How much does she really know about the business of spying? Is she aware that murder and honeytraps are part of the job? So far, this show has not given me sufficient reasons to accept why Paige would follow Mom down this path. 

Moving to the Paige thread...

[Dev F]

Just sticking to spoiler-related issues, here's what I don't really get: What is it about the promotional materials for the upcoming season that's making people think The Americans will suddenly become The Paige Show? She's not featured especially heavily in the trailers, which focus, as the show itself has consistently done, on the relationship between Philip and Elizabeth. I certainly have my own worries about the final season -- mostly that it might continue on in the sluggish mood-portrait style that made season 5 something of a disappointment -- but I think five seasons that were laser-focused on the Philip/Elizabeth relationship give one good reason to believe that season 6 will also be laser-focused on the Philip/Elizabeth relationship. Oh no, what if Paige suddenly becomes a superspy and takes over the show? seems like as reasonable a fear as worrying that the final season of Breaking Bad might kill off Walt in the season premiere and focus the rest of the episodes on Todd making meth for the biker gang.

[sistermagpie]

23 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Just sticking to spoiler-related issues, here's what I don't really get: What is it about the promotional materials for the upcoming season that's making people think The Americans will suddenly become The Paige Show?

I don't know if this is the reason, but the very first promotional stuff was Paige alone. She was in college, spying with Mom, more confident, wearing a boyfriend-style look with light make-up etc. So at first that's literally all anybody had (that Elizabeth and Paige were spying together and Philip was not at all), so that's what they reacted to. It's still the only actual story we know about, since the P/E stuff is a mystery, so it seems to loom larger. Plus, it's taking a character that's already central to the domestic storyline and moving her into the spy side of the show too. That's suggests giving her even more of a presence, even if the college stuff is limited to the amount of time she had with Pastor Tim. If someone thought she had too much screentime or focus before, this is going to seem even more oppressive.

Besides that I'd say that probably for many people it may not be that they think it's going to be all Paige all the time, but they think that the stuff that is Paige will be stuff they don't like. So it's not a worry that the show will suddenly be about Paige rather than P&E but that Paige, when she is onscreen, will be too much superspy hitgirl or something. And I think tbf the show has earned that distrust, since it's always leaned too hard (imo) on Elizabeth being powerful enough to take anybody out and a lot of Paige fighting in the garage as the key to her development. The clips alone seem to show Elizabeth going up against at least two men and probably more. 

[Umbelina]

8 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

Let's get back to spoilers here, please.  We've strayed away from Paige discussion as it relates to spoilers and into a general more in depth show discussion which should go in one of the many other threads we have.

It's kind of hard to do when the spoilers are all declaring this the season of Paige, and each release of a clip features PAIGE.

But I will comply of course.

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

It's kind of hard to do when the spoilers are all declaring this the season of Paige, and each release of a clip features PAIGE.

So this is why I'm sort of baffled by the intensity of the anti-Paige response hereabouts -- in fact, the clips released thus far aren't disproportionately weighted toward Paige. I see seven mini-trailers currently posted on FX's YouTube site, and they break down as follows:

1. "Stop Her" (15 secs.): A Philip/Elizabeth scene, with voiceover by Oleg suggesting that Philip might be called upon to investigate his wife and take her down. Paige does not appear.
2. "Cover" (20 secs.): Voiceover by Elizabeth over mostly spycraft scenes of Elizabeth, Philip, and Stan. Paige appears for about 2 secs. at the end, revealing that Elizabeth's voiceover was directed at her.
3. "Wall" (30 secs.): Ronald Reagan speech plays over more spycraft scenes with the adult cast. Paige appears for about 3 secs. fighting with Philip, and later the trailer flashes to the same scene again for about 1 sec.
4. "Gone Bad" (10 secs.): Quick hit that starts with lightning-fast flashes of danger and mayhem and lands on a single shot of a rough-looking Elizabeth as she VOs, "Things have gone bad." Unless she blips by at the beginning too fast for me to see even with the pause button, Paige does not appear.
5. "Years" (30 secs.): Starts with clips of the Phil/Liz relationship from previous seasons and then segues into new-season spycraft stuff to illustrate Philip's comment to Liz, "You're amazing, but after all these years, it is finally getting to you." Paige appears for about 3 secs. in the same clip of her fighting with Philip.
6. "Sins" (20 secs.): A different take on the same "It is finally getting to you" theme as the previous mini-trailer, with more current-season shots of Philip and Elizabeth in place of the historical shots. Though some of the spycraft stuff is the same, Paige does not appear in this version.
7. "The End" (30 secs.): The most comprehensive mini-trailer, starting with "It is finally getting to you," then segueing into about 3 secs. of a Paige/Liz training sequence and 2 secs. of Paige insisting to her father "I don't think I'm the same as you, Dad." Then there's a run about how Stan "has to be dealt with," followed by some quick flashes, including maybe 1 sec. more of Paige in disguise, then a final capper with Stan warning Phil, "Whatever you're doing here . . . don't."

I just can't get my mind around the notion that this set of promos, in which Paige appears for maybe 15 seconds in total, and only once (in "Cover") is arguably the focal character, somehow suggests that this will be "the season of Paige." It makes about as much sense to me as arguing that this will be the season of the guy Elizabeth stabs in the neck -- yeah, he's prominently featured in a bunch of the trailers, but in a way that makes it clear that he's part of Elizabeth's story, not his own center of gravity. Ditto with Paige.

[Umbelina]

There have also been several blurbs about it posted on Facebook by the network, and interviews.  I'll take the rest to the Paige thread if you wish.  3 or 4 seconds of a VERY short clip is still significant, and she was in all the early ones released, which started the dismay. 

Henry?  No clips.  Stan?  I think one or two.  She's a major story this season (again) if not THE major story.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

I just posted a video in the "real spies" thread, but what I couldn't say there, but can here, is that it spans pretty much all of Liz and Phil's time in the KGB, and goes through the time period of this coming season, and a bit beyond.  For that reason, the KGB guy that recruited Americans during his time here, also goes through the time this season begins.

[scrb]

So there are reports that the first episode of S06 will take place in the fall of '87.  Here is a timeline of the last years before the fall of the Berlin Wall.

 

Quote

Glasnost, perestroika and Chernobyl

1985 - Chernenko dies and is replaced by Mikhail Gorbachev as general secretary of the Communist Party; Andrey Gromyko becomes president. Gorbachev begins an anti-alcohol campaign and promulgates the policies of openness, or glasnost, and restructuring, or perestroika.

1986 - Chernobyl nuclear power station explodes, showering large areas in Ukraine, Belarus and beyond with radioactive material.

1987 - Soviet Union and US agree to scrap intermediate-range nuclear missiles; Boris Yeltsin dismissed as Moscow party chief for criticising slow pace of reforms.

1988 - Gorbachev replaces Gromyko as president; challenges nationalists in Kazakhstan, the Baltic republics, Armenia and Azerbaijan; special Communist Party conference agrees to allow private sector.

1989 - "Revolutions of 1989" see the toppling of Soviet-imposed communist regimes in central and eastern Europe. Events begin in Poland and continue in Hungary, East Germany, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia and Romania. In East Germany, an unprecedented series of mass public rallies leads to the fall of the Berlin Wall on 9 November. 

Elsewhere in the USSR: Soviet troops leave Afghanistan; nationalist riots put down in Georgia; Lithuanian Communist Party declares its independence from the Soviet Communist Party; first openly-contested elections for new Congress of People's Deputies, or parliament.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17858981

 

So Gorbachev has been in power for a couple of years and started talking about glasnost and perestroika in '85.

Chernobyl happens in '86.

Missile treaty signed in '87.

But really the USSR and the Eastern Bloc doesn't fall until '89, so it appears they're not going to reach that point in history, unless they cover 1-2 years from beginning of S06 to the end.

 

However, Philip and Elizabeth will have time to weigh in on the food shortages and then the problems plaguing the Soviet Union, which is why those reform efforts have such momentum and why they get a lot of play in the Western media.

Again, it seems bizarre if as reported, Paige buys into being a spy, given this context.  The intel they send back may not do the Soviets any good.  Reformers are making the country let go of a lot of things, eventually all the satellite countries, leading to the fall of the Berlin Wall.

But it wouldn't be much of a story if these characters just quietly blend into American civilian life and just stop spying, I guess.

[sistermagpie]

This article contains some pictures as well as that new trailer. One thing it confirms: Yes, Oleg is the person Philip is meeting on that bench. 

http://collider.com/the-americans-season-6-trailer-keri-russell-matthew-rhys/#images

Also, yeah, Henry's at the boarding school. Not that you'd know it from the trailer because I only caught what was possibly the only view of him for a second in the dinner party scene where Stan lectures about people trying to destroy the US way of life while Philip stares at Paige and she ignores him. Henry's on the hockey team, so that's one thing that's consistent and he still shares with dad. That's from the pictures--from the trailer it would appear the Jennings have only the one child.

The convos with Paige seem to as ever be focused on the personal meaning of spying--how some people can't do it forever (presumably Philip) and that something's gotten lost (although one might actually say something was gained), how the life is hard so Paige needs to commit or not (which presumably Paige will just respond to by proving herself to Mom as usual). Still wonder how exactly Paige's decision will be justified politically or if.

I wonder if the courier storyline is that woman and her boyfriend from last season. That would actually give some retroactive sense to how funny the story seemed. That is, maybe it was so easy and seemed so fake because it was supposed to be showing us just how much ordinary Russians had started looking toward the West as a reasonable possibility. 

Can't read too much into little scenes, of course, but I will say it does seem significant to think of Elizabeth's contact being Claudia and Philip's being Oleg. Because for all the hammering on how Elizabeth is the big loyal Russian and Philip's practically American already (although in this trailer Philip is basically confirming his loyalty to the Cause in spirit), Claudia is a WWII vet who, like Elizabeth, still seems to see the world in those terms and never question anything the Centre does, and who last season revealed that she can't relate to her own modern Russian non-spy daughter and grandchildren. While Oleg is a Moscow-based KGB officer who's been grappling with practical problems of the country and sometimes sees disobedience to the KGB as a greater loyalty to the USSR. Sure Philip almost always interacts with the disillusioned, but maybe this time there's a way forward. (ETA: Looks like yet another scene where Elizabeth takes down a guy twice her size--they reeeeally have her do that way too often.)

Edited March 12, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

I wonder if the courier is the bad-teeth woman's boyfriend/finance?

Looks like Oleg could be the new Residentura.

Yuppers, they are letting the FBI be part of the Jennings/illegals take down.

I hope Paige dies in episode 1 or 2. 

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Looks like Oleg could be the new Residentura.

 

That seems really unlikely to me with his record. Would even he feel comfortable taking that job knowing the kind of blackmail material the FBI has on him? 

I pictured him working with some other faction of the KGB in secret, maybe even traveling in secret to meet with Philip. But really I have no clue.

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I wonder if the courier is the bad-teeth woman's boyfriend/finance?

 

That was my first thought. Maybe those are the people who are murdered in what looks like a big crime scene.

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I hope Paige dies in episode 1 or 2. 

I suspect we'll be by her side as she decides who she is in every single episode of S6. Who Paige decides to be has been a major issue of the show since the beginning--and I know at least one of those Paige/Elizabeth walk and talk scenes was from ep3, so she's there at least that long. Elizabeth's lessons in this clip are again all about personal tests (as opposed to Philip's lines about a belief in a big Greater Good doesn't just justify everything.) 

I do wonder if there's a planned payoff to the way Henry so often passively mirrors Philip without Philip aggressively cultivating the things he sees are the same the way Elizabeth does with Paige. Or if Henry's just there to be surprised eventually. The only glimpses of him I've seen I think a brief shot of him in that dinner scene, the still of him in the hockey uniform, and a behind the scenes shot of him and Philip in a car. (Paige the college student is the one who hasn't left home, or at least not completely.)

[Umbelina]

42 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That seems really unlikely to me with his record. Would even he feel comfortable taking that job knowing the kind of blackmail material the FBI has on him? 

I pictured him working with some other faction of the KGB in secret, maybe even traveling in secret to meet with Philip. But really I have no clue.

snip

Information on the Illegal program was HIGHLY classified.  Wasn't Arkady just about the only one who even knew who they were?  My guess is Residentura, so we get to see a bit of the Soviet reaction to goings on with the courier and also the USSR.

However he could be meeting with him, but certainly not if he isn't EXTREMELY trusted by now.  No chance.

ETA  We've seen Claudia, so I doubt he's their new handler.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

58 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

However he could be meeting with him, but certainly not if he isn't EXTREMELY trusted by now.  No chance.

I was thinking he was meeting with him as part of a group of people working against the official Centre line, myself. There's some split in the KGB and it seems like Oleg's on a different side than, say, Claudia. So either Claudia's going rogue (at least a little, I assume) or Oleg is, and since Oleg is meeting with Philip who's officially not even supposed to be working, and last we saw both of them they seemed to be in conflict with the way things have always been at the KGB, it seemed like it would be Oleg.

Granted he could be the Rezident and still be up to something. He couldn't ever be their handler because he's already known to the entire FBI and CIA as a KGB operative--the handlers have American covers. But Arkady did meet with Claudia once. I guess my instinct was to see those with the most power in the KGB as being on the conservative side. I guess I also wonder if--and this is pure speculation based on very little--but if when Oleg took himself back to his family he took himself off that superstar path to Rezident so he's more in the shadows.

[Umbelina]

How could he be "in the shadows" and meeting with Philip in the USA though?

I understand what you are saying, BUT... (hee hee)

I don't think they aren't going to introduce a ton of new characters in the final short season.  Not having a real Russian reaction to the events in the USSR would be a big hit to the story.  Even if the writers still have their heads up their asses, as last season?  HOW could they leave the chaos out, or pile it all on Liz and Claudia? 

So, Oleg as KGB chief in DC is the only thing that makes sense to me since we now know he's back.  We'll probably get some BS thrown together story of how he regained trust/confidence, or the USSR is just that desperate, and Oleg has experience and language skills there.  He could also defect I suppose, but be torn since mommy and daddy would be hostages the KGB has over him.   The hostage part could give the Center more confidence in his behavior alternately.

OR, last season never happened, which might be for the best. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

I think there was a fundamental writing error in how this show was structured, in terms of pace. There should have been more time lapse between seasons, instead of the ridiculous amount of operations  Phil and Liz crammed into the first half of the 1980s. I think this would have allowed for a more organic change in the characters' perspectives and world views. I know that would have precluded a lot of cliff-hangery stuff, and perhaps posed a problem with aging the children credibly, but cliff hanger stuff tends to promote dumb, lazy writing, and maybe using young looking adult actors for the kids (there's stuff you can do with hair, makeup and clothing to make an 20 year old look 15, or a 18 year look 13) would have provided better performances in these roles, especially in the latter seasons.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Bannon

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think they aren't going to introduce a ton of new characters in the final short season.  Not having a real Russian reaction to the events in the USSR would be a big hit to the story.  Even if the writers still have their heads up their asses, as last season?  HOW could they leave the chaos out, or pile it all on Liz and Claudia? 

 

I assumed (based on very little!) was that we'd see Oleg in Moscow so we'd see the conflict there through him. But then he'd also leave the USSR to meet with Philip, either in the USA or somewhere else that they could both get to. Maybe he could have a reason to be in the USA that was official, either at the Rezidentura or not, but he wouldn't have to be the Rezident. I don't think he'd defect--it sounds like the opposite, that he's still trying to act in the best interests of the USSR as he sees them. 

By "in the shadows" I more meant hiding from TPTB at the KGB rather than in the US, though of course he'd be of interest to the FBI as well. Even more so, it seems to me, if he was the Rezident since the FBI has blackmail material on him.

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I know that would have precluded a lot of cliff-hangery stuff, and perhaps posed a problem with aging the children credibly, but cliff hanger stuff tends to promote dumb, lazy writing, and maybe using young looking adult actors for the kids (there's stuff you can do with hair, makeup and clothing to make an 20 year old look 15, or a 18 year look 13) would have provided better performances in these roles, especially in the latter seasons.

I don't think adult actors for the kids would ever have worked, but stretching out the timeline more would have fixed the problem rather than created one. The kids have aged a year every season, which makes them the same age again only with the time jump. It was due to the compressed timeline that we got the actors being older, which wasn't usually a problem for Paige who is always going to be tiny with big eyes, but had a 15-year-old kid who was bigger than Philip playing Henry at 13, which was more awkward. (Henry literally goes from child to adolescent between seasons when the timeline picks up days later, which is probably why they have Philip and Elizabeth talk about him wearing cologne before we see him, even though the kid we last saw seemed like a little boy.) 

What I would have liked better about stretching out the timeline is I hate having a big jump of 3 years before the last season. Not only does it feel like a meta-move that's fixing a mistake (the timeline of s5 doesn't even make sense given how long the Brad and Dee stuff ought to have taken to set up and play out), but a big skip like that to me always feels like you're starting a whole new story. So the characters can now just be anything. Yeah, I get that all these things were put in place: Philip quitting, Elizabeth being unable to quit, Paige deciding to punch the laundry bag, Henry wanting to go to boarding school, Stan wanting to quit...but it's still jumping them into a different place based on that instead of having it develop after five seasons where development was the whole point. 

[Umbelina]

From what I understand, they fully expected to wrap this up last year, but got an extra season (which, IMO, was mostly wasted, even though stories had possibilities, they screwed them up.)

I liked the pace of the first four seasons, and was able to ignore the blatant unreality of secret embedded spies carrying out work that Russian B&E teams or hit squads would have carried out in the real world, because the pace and tension made all that worth it.

(also, that should be an "are" not "aren't" up there in my post.  Sorry.)

Edited March 13, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

41 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

From what I understand, they fully expected to wrap this up last year, but got an extra season (which, IMO, was mostly wasted, even though stories had possibilities, they screwed them up.)

 

But they found out about getting 5 and 6 together, so they went into S5 knowing where they wanted to end up and how long they had to get there. They may have even found out earlier. If they were screwed up by having an extra season that just suggests and even bigger problem needing an even bigger time jump to get them into Perstroika where they always wanted to do the last season.

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

What I would have liked better about stretching out the timeline is I hate having a big jump of 3 years before the last season. Not only does it feel like a meta-move that's fixing a mistake (the timeline of s5 doesn't even make sense given how long the Brad and Dee stuff ought to have taken to set up and play out), but a big skip like that to me always feels like you're starting a whole new story. So the characters can now just be anything. Yeah, I get that all these things were put in place: Philip quitting, Elizabeth being unable to quit, Paige deciding to punch the laundry bag, Henry wanting to go to boarding school, Stan wanting to quit...but it's still jumping them into a different place based on that instead of having it develop after five seasons where development was the whole point. 

Well said. I also hate the big jump (in fact, I don't like it regardless of show uses). 

It makes me feel that the entirety of last season meant very little. It feels like some plot lines were started and stalled (Stan's dissatisfaction) while others just rambled along (like the wheat one). 

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

It makes me feel that the entirety of last season meant very little. It feels like some plot lines were started and stalled (Stan's dissatisfaction) while others just rambled along (like the wheat one). 

Yeah, the development has been step by step all along but last year seemed to only take a lot of characters to the place where they already almost were at the end of S4. With a lot of extra stuff to pack it like foam peanuts. There were just things that sometimes seemed like they were going to be character development because they resembled it superficially, but were actually just a fake out. 

[Umbelina]

Sorry, but I'm not going to have any sympathy for the writers as far as getting more episodes to flesh something out if they knew all along there was going to be a massive time jump.  That seems like a boon to me, not a cross to bear.

[Dev F]

On 3/12/2018 at 6:49 PM, sistermagpie said:

I was thinking he was meeting with him as part of a group of people working against the official Centre line, myself. There's some split in the KGB and it seems like Oleg's on a different side than, say, Claudia. So either Claudia's going rogue (at least a little, I assume) or Oleg is, and since Oleg is meeting with Philip who's officially not even supposed to be working, and last we saw both of them they seemed to be in conflict with the way things have always been at the KGB, it seemed like it would be Oleg.

Yeah, that was my immediate read when Oleg was featured in the earlier trailers. I figure we're going to see a hardliner/reformer split with Claudia and Elizabeth on one side and Philip and Oleg on the other. That would be in keeping with both where the Jenningses ended up at the end of last season, and where Oleg seemed to be headed.

I don't see any reason to think that Oleg is the new rezident, though. It's unlikely that he'd be having an undercover park bench meeting with Philip if he's operating under official cover.

On 3/13/2018 at 2:13 PM, Ellaria Sand said:

It makes me feel that the entirety of last season meant very little. It feels like some plot lines were started and stalled (Stan's dissatisfaction) while others just rambled along (like the wheat one). 

I've been rewatching last season in preparation for the show's return, and now that I know where it's heading, it's much more coherent and meaningful. Basically, everything is about the Jenningses making the dual revelations "I can never be the person my partner is" and "If not for the person my partner is, I wouldn't be able to be who I am." Even the silly wheat stuff plugs into that, with Philip and Elizabeth freaking out because they think the Americans are trying to destroy their grain with a plague, only to realize that the point of the plague is to make the grain stronger, just like they eventually realize that their insurmountable differences are what make them stronger. They are the crossbred strain, basically.

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I've been rewatching last season in preparation for the show's return, and now that I know where it's heading, it's much more coherent and meaningful.

I was thinking about this in terms of where everyone ended up at the most basic plot level and it occurred to me that it seems significant that Paige's story was about going from someone hiding in the closet afraid to punching a bag and feeling not afraid. With Elizabeth along the way telling her how she was raped and that the correct response to it was to learn to fight so she wouldn't be hurt anymore (rejecting Paige's hug that more symbolized overcoming the trauma through relationships/support of others). This isn't really a big revelation about Elizabeth that she is very concerned with needing to feel strong and worrying that Paige isn't, but it's interesting how central that must be to Paige being a spy. And Philip commented on something similar at EST when he said he felt strong when he killed the bully--but now feels bad about it. Paige had the whole PTSD storyline plus saw her parents having the power of getting rid of Pastor Tim. That seems to be the main foundation for Paige wanting to be a spy.

I don't know what that means for her next season but when I see the clips of Philip fighting with her my instinctual response is to assume that he's showing her that not is she not able to take down men twice her size (trained or not, really), there's always going to be someone bigger and stronger than she is. So if this is her solution to being afraid or insecure, it's not necessarily the best solution.

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

their insurmountable differences are what make them stronger. They are the crossbred strain, basically.

Which makes me wonder about the kids, who hit a place where they started to be raised differently. Paige got the spy parents and specifically got Elizabeth as as a role model. Henry got the travel agent parents and hands-off parenting.

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

That would be in keeping with both where the Jenningses ended up at the end of last season, and where Oleg seemed to be headed.

Yeah-and the interesting part of Oleg's storyline, for me, was less him seeing the corruption than him coming to see his parents' as products of that society. His father genuinely believed in the system and seemed to raise his kids with integrity and have it himself, but his mother suffered the worst sides of it and can't not see them as the enemy to some extend. And his brother was killed for it. He's got good reason to want the USSR to live up to its own ideals and see bigger problems within than from without. That was the other thing about the wheat and bioweapons stories. They were justified by threats that were possibly both imaginary and wound up highlighting the internal problems instead.