PODCAST S02.E03 Go Pirates!: Is There Such A Thing As TOO Cool?

[Primetimer]

Veronica Mars isn't about Jackie, Beaver isn't about his stepmother, Logan isn't about Duncan and Veronica, and Dick Sr. isn't about honesty in S2.E03, 'Cheatty Cheatty Bang Bang.'

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[Primetimer]

The most significant, painful, and awkward moments from S02.E03!

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[Hotaru]

The stupidest part of this episode is that the writers and @Sarah D. Bunting obviously never read even the CliffsNotes for any of Jane Austen books and especially not PnP! I can't remember a single Jane Austen book where women fight over a guy, Elizabeth Bennett doesn't even want Mr. Darcy no matter that he is the richest guy available..... I forgot how much "not like other girls" misogyny this show has and Sarah you are leaning into it.....

I'm with John when it comes to Duncan, he is such a shitty friend. Logan didn't kill your sister, Logan obviously hates his father so much, why would he be angry at Logan for what Aaron did?!? He obviously had some idea that Aaron was a bad guy so it's not like he has to deal with huge emotional shift from that angle. He is just a selfish user, he doesn't care about anyone but himself.

I like Jackie and Tessa Thompson's acting. Although I think there is an issue with the writing, I feel like the writers were unsure about what purpose they wanted Jackie to have in the story so her characterization is all over the place. It almost feels like they change their minds every episode!

[pau]

12 hours ago, Hotaru said:

 

I'm with John when it comes to Duncan, he is such a shitty friend. Logan didn't kill your sister, Logan obviously hates his father so much, why would he be angry at Logan for what Aaron did?!? He obviously had some idea that Aaron was a bad guy so it's not like he has to deal with huge emotional shift from that angle. He is just a selfish user, he doesn't care about anyone but himself.

I like Jackie and Tessa Thompson's acting. Although I think there is an issue with the writing, I feel like the writers were unsure about what purpose they wanted Jackie to have in the story so her characterization is all over the place. It almost feels like they change their minds every episode!

To me these characters..ALL of them are flawed and yeah human and also quite immature, they are high schoolers after all..So Duncan yeah is unfair towards Logan and associate him to his father, he went through a lot of shitty things and it is his defense mechanism..The same way Logan was unfair to Veronica at the beginning of the show and blamed her for her father's behaviour/actions in the Lily's murder case/investigation.

I did not mind Jackie character and i liked she could call Veronica out when Veronica could be holier-than-thou in this second season..and Tessa Thompson was a good actress (already, we know the successful future for her..) but i agree the writing for her character was inconsistent.

Edited December 17, 2017 by pau

[WhosThatGirl]

I always liked Jackie, actually. I liked her honestly with the Veronica and Wallace friendship and I think it’s a later episode “Veronica says jump, you say how high?”

Also hating Duncan is just the status quo. It really isn’t Logan’s fault. Duncan just sucks.

[EricJ]

Not a lot to say on this ep, but if The Good Place never has an episode called "Chidi Chidi Bang Bang" I'll be sorely miffed.

[Hotaru]

On 12/16/2017 at 11:57 PM, pau said:

To me these characters..ALL of them are flawed and yeah human and also quite immature, they are high schoolers after all..So Duncan yeah is unfair towards Logan and associate him to his father, he went through a lot of shitty things and it is his defense mechanism..The same way Logan was unfair to Veronica at the beginning of the show and blamed her for her father's behaviour/actions in the Lily's murder case/investigation.

I did not mind Jackie character and i liked she could call Veronica out when Veronica could be holier-than-thou in this second season..and Tessa Thompson was a good actress (already, we know the successful future for her..) but i agree the writing for her character was inconsistent.

I agree that all of the characters are flawed and I love that, no one is perfect, this is noir. The problem with Duncan is that he is not human or sympathetic and the narrative constantly treats him as such. And Logan did not blame Veronica for what her father did, he blamed her for supporting her father's actions. It's not defense mechanism for himself, it's misguided protection of Kanes and it was horrible, not just unfair. The difference is that Logan is great friend to Duncan and Duncan just doesn't care. Is such a problem with both writing and acting that Duncan seems more like an alien trying to learn to imitate human emotion. The acting is wooden but he is also given such a strange emotional beats to play, like this one with Logan. He has no emotional or logical high horse to stand on(or excuse), he abandoned his best friend in his time of need and then came back to town and didn't even call him but instead went to stalk his girlfriend at her place of work for the purpose of convincing her to break up with Logan.

Repeating what I said in the topic for last episode, this both show and viewer tendency to dismiss Duncan as benign boring person is so dangerous to me when I think about teenagers watching this show. The rape storyline made him a rapist(I believe not on purpose but implication is there when you put together facts of the night) but instead we are supposed to believe they just had "perfect" first time Veronica just can't remember. He literally stalks her but we are supposed to think it's romantic and sweet.  He breaks up with her by ignoring her and not giving her a reason and we are supposed to believe it's justified, it's not BTW. Duncan acts as classical narcissistic abuser there, Veronica is not a person, she is thing and her emotions don't matter. Only him avoiding discomfort is important. He lies to her, dismisses her and patronises her and cheats on her(I'm calling death of an author on this one, the storyline just doesn't make sense if he didn't cheat on her Rob!) and the narrative frames it as normal and understandable. I don't mind toxic, abusive characters. I don't even mind toxic, abusive ships but please, acknowledge the wrongness in the narrative. 

[Affogato]

I wouldn’t have minded a little more podcast discussion about what Casablancas  the Elder was doing. My impression (assumption?)  was it was one of those scams where older couples in upper New York, etc, are sold vacation time shares in the Okefenolkee Swamp. 

This doesn’t say much about the investment smarts of the teacher, who is in the area and could have checked. 

[Affogato]

ok  Veronica stays with Logan through his physical recovery and trial. The only people we see Logan hangs out with are Dick and Beaver, so she probably isn’t getting any social fun out of this, in fact she is probably isolating herself by being his friend. We know her father is injured and she is working hard.

He knows she’d disapprove of torching the pool  because we see him hiding it from her. 

Hr does something he knows will cause her to leave him  because she is going to leave him, because everyone does. Separation anxiety. She is still around so he uses personal information she trusted him with to repeatedly try to hurt her. we never see her do this back. 

He also messes with his actual remaining friends dick/beaver (heh) and cuckolds the only adult male who is nice to him. 

Logan is a toxic friend. And also a really defensive passive aggressive self destructive one. 

Logan is rarely direct and honest. Emotionally. The fight with Duncan was one of those times. Duncan lets him back in. Veronica responds to rare honesty from Logan in the same way. 

I figure Jackie knows she’s going back to being a waitress and unwed mother. She’s living large while she can. She doesn’t think any of the relationships she’s making will survey ve the truth. Maybe including her dad. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Affogato

[Affogato]

Dick has perfected the blithering idiot look. 

Veronica’s first reaction is to take responsibility. Logan’s is to blame someone else.

[Hotaru]

When did Logan blame someone else for his mistakes and actions?

Logan constantly owning his shit is actually part of pattern of behavior typical of abuse victims. Purposely doing bad things so that you can feel like you deserve abuse and therefore feeling like you have control over punishment. It's something the show actually did right. He constantly admits that he did something wrong when asked. 

Veronica is the one that needs to find bad guys so that she feels justified for all her bad actions. I love Veronica but she is self-centered and self-righteous and judgmental to the max, it's what makes her the flawed noir hero. She feels responsible for all the wrong things.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Hotaru
Apparently, I'm rude....Wouldn't want to be deleted again:)

[secnarf]

6 hours ago, Affogato said:

Hr does something he knows will cause her to leave him  because she is going to leave him, because everyone does. Separation anxiety. She is still around so he uses personal information she trusted him with to repeatedly try to hurt her. we never see her do this back. 

He also messes with his actual remaining friends dick/beaver (heh) and cuckolds the only adult male who is nice to him. 

Logan is a toxic friend. And also a really defensive passive aggressive self destructive one. 

Logan is rarely direct and honest. Emotionally. The fight with Duncan was one of those times. Duncan lets him back in. Veronica responds to rare honesty from Logan in the same way.

 

I hadn't really thought of Logan like this before, but you gave a very good description of borderline personality disorder.

[Affogato]

11 hours ago, Hotaru said:

I agree that all of the characters are flawed and I love that, no one is perfect, this is noir. The problem with Duncan is that he is not human or sympathetic and the narrative constantly treats him as such. And Logan did not blame Veronica for what her father did, he blamed her for supporting her father's actions. It's not defense mechanism for himself, it's misguided protection of Kanes and it was horrible, not just unfair. The difference is that Logan is great friend to Duncan and Duncan just doesn't care. Is such a problem with both writing and acting that Duncan seems more like an alien trying to learn to imitate human emotion. The acting is wooden but he is also given such a strange emotional beats to play, like this one with Logan. He has no emotional or logical high horse to stand on(or excuse), he abandoned his best friend in his time of need and then came back to town and didn't even call him but instead went to stalk his girlfriend at her place of work for the purpose of convincing her to break up with Logan.

Repeating what I said in the topic for last episode, this both show and viewer tendency to dismiss Duncan as benign boring person is so dangerous to me when I think about teenagers watching this show. The rape storyline made him a rapist(I believe not on purpose but implication is there when you put together facts of the night) but instead we are supposed to believe they just had "perfect" first time Veronica just can't remember. He literally stalks her but we are supposed to think it's romantic and sweet.  He breaks up with her by ignoring her and not giving her a reason and we are supposed to believe it's justified, it's not BTW. Duncan acts as classical narcissistic abuser there, Veronica is not a person, she is thing and her emotions don't matter. Only him avoiding discomfort is important. He lies to her, dismisses her and patronises her and cheats on her(I'm calling death of an author on this one, the storyline just doesn't make sense if he didn't cheat on her Rob!) and the narrative frames it as normal and understandable. I don't mind toxic, abusive characters. I don't even mind toxic, abusive ships but please, acknowledge the wrongness in the narrative. 

I don’t know if you read fanfiction. I don’t read a massive amount but found this writer through a tv tropes recommendation. This story is a first person totally sociopathic Veronica who kills Lilly Kane. It isn’t a romance or remotely shippy of course. 

https://m.fanfiction.net/s/3090351/1/The-Answer

anyeay your description of Duncan made me think of this. 

[Affogato]

16 hours ago, Hotaru said:

When did Logan blame someone else for his mistakes and actions?

Logan constantly owning his shit is actually part of pattern of behavior typical of abuse victims. Purposely doing bad things so that you can feel like you deserve abuse and therefore feeling like you have control over punishment. It's something the show actually did right. He constantly admits that he did something wrong when asked. 

Veronica is the one that needs to find bad guys so that she feels justified for all her bad actions. I love Veronica but she is self-centered and self-righteous and judgmental to the max, it's what makes her the flawed noir hero. She feels responsible for all the wrong things.

 

Yes, most of Logan's behavior is a textbook case.

In a perfect world, if Logan had the courage--and no one would expect it of him--to out Aaron as an abuser, Lilly and lynn would be alive. This is something Logan will need to face before he can move on and he is nowhere near ready to do it. But if he was the star of the show, which he isn't, this would be his story line:

Logan, a damaged person who is stronger than you can imagine is at first crushed by the things that happen to him. But by the second season he has grown. He takes responsibility for bullying Veronica himself and  for Aaron's actions as well. He admits that his hiding his abuse didn't help. He acts on what he learns. He helps damaged, broken Veronica learn to trust again and leads her back to being the open, delightful girl she was before Lilly's death. In his drive to fix the damage he caused he will have, by the end of the story, also saved himself. 

Or perhaps he'd just realise that he needs to move on and let her save herself.

Contrast Logan with Veronica. She may not be really responsible for the deaths of the students in the bus crash, but she immediately faces the possibility without hesitation, and accepts responsibility for it. She also, in a psychologically healthy move, asks someone else (Keith) for emotional support. This is her baseline. Now she has to complete her quest to find herself and on the way she learns how hard it is to save someone else and that sometimes you have to admit that you can't save them.

You are also right about Veronica. She embodies the characteristics we usually associate with an alpha male. She commits to her beliefs at the time. When she's wrong she moves on. She learns, changes and grows. She uses people hard but like a general in battle, she supports and earns the loyalty of her troops. When she apologises to Wallace, she gives him her computer and leaves him alone with it. She not only apologises, she leaves herself vulnerable. She is a good leader but not always a nice person and yeah, sometimes self righteous and judgmental. Elon Musk, Richard Branson, Hillary Clinton, hell, Donald Trump has all the bad parts and none of the positive ones. 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Affogato

[Lisin]

Some posts have been hidden. We'd like to remind everyone that while disagreement is of course allowed, when disagreeing please remember to be respectful and think of how you would want someone to address you when disagreeing. Also please remember that this is the internet, people are allowed to be "wrong" and you're never going to "win" anything so please remember the Golden Rule, Be Civil or Be Gone. 

[John Potts]

Hey, we had an "Investment Club" that made some (notional) investments to see how they could do. This managed to coincide with the Stock market crash of the late 80s, so the investments didn't do too well... But I always thought that teacher was an idiot for putting all his (investment) eggs in one basket, even if he thought it wasn't a complete house of cards.

I loved that scene with Veronica swapping her iPod with Kendall for showing how V worked the switch - particularly when you get to see the scene from Kendall's POV when V is talking (apparently) oblivious to how Kendall can't hear her.

Hey! I remember when payphones had phone books in them... so if you're old enough to be watching this episode, you probably only need to ask your parents.

Love that screenshot of Jackie & Wallace's expressions looking at Veronica!

On ‎16‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 5:04 PM, Hotaru said:

I can't remember a single Jane Austen book where women fight over a guy

Well, Lizzie DOES get into a fight with Lady Catherine over Darcy, although the fight's about how she thinks her nephew is too good for her. And Emma Woodhouse inadvertently creates her own rival by getting Harriet to pursue Mr Knightley. So it does happen in Austen, just very genteelly (not a word)!

Edited January 29, 2018 by John Potts

[littlewonder]

I love The Dandy Warhols and have seen them live but... Courtney Taylor-Taylor really couldn't hit those notes.  I really thought this was supposed to be a joke like "Hey, look at this rock star whose voice you love in our opening credits.  Now see him bomb at kareoke.  Oh the hilarity."  But then in went on.  And on.

Edited November 20, 2018 by littlewonder

[LeGrandElephant]

When Logan says “didn’t plug her right the first time” to Duncan, is he referring to the time at Shelly Pomroy’s party? If so, he deserved being punched for it. 

Though overall I hate seeing Veronica all lovey dovey with Duncan, especially while Logan is suffering.

[LeGrandElephant]

I also agree that Duncan isn’t really a nice guy. Ghosting Veronica in the backstory wasn’t cool or nice, he could have made up some excuse to break up with her. The sex at Shelly’s party and ignoring her afterwards wasn’t ok even if you fully believe his side of it. He’s the one who went out his way to pursue Meg, knowing she was friends with Veronica. Then he stalks Veronica, knowing she’s with Logan, and apparently doesn’t talk to Logan at all about the blow that his father had been sleeping with his girlfriend and murdered her. And per last season’s finale, Duncan knew that Aaron had been beating Logan. 

Duncan definitely does Stand Idly By. 

[SoMuchTV]

Question for the folks who are commenting on the podcasts in 2019.  Do you have a current source for them? I just started watching the show last summer, and I can't seem to find them on iTunes, or Apple podcasts, or whatever it's called now.

[LeGrandElephant]

No honestly I’m just replying to the written comments about the show, I didn’t even look for the podcasts.