S13.E07: War of the Worlds

[Myrelle]

54 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I agree with almost every criticism leveled at this episode, but there were one or two things that I liked, at least enough to want to watch those moments again.

Ketch apparently had gone to great lengths to support his story of being "Alexander": removing his tattoo, creating an elaborate and impressive paper trail, and so on. But looking back on it now, it is interesting to me to see how he was unable to resist defending his real self when he was criticized. When Sam said that Arthur was amoral and loyal to no one, Ketch objected, insisting that he was not amoral, that he was "loyal to a fault" and "an incredibly good company man". He talked about how "burdened" Arthur was, how being him was "not an easy job". I liked the way that we got to see how Ketch -- who, let's face it, is a complete sociopath -- views himself, and how his oversized ego (which I believe is also characteristic of a sociopath) caused him to almost give himself away. I thought it was kind of clever.

I also thought it was interesting how Sam dug deep into the research in order to figure out the truth about Ketch, whereas Dean relied on his instincts. Very characteristic of both of them. I was struck by the intensity of Dean's reaction to Ketch asking how Mary was, but I didn't realize what it meant. I thought that Dean was just upset by Ketch having the gall to talk about his mother, so I didn't realize, as Dean did, the significance of Ketch asking that question. I didn't notice, as Dean did, the look in Ketch's eyes, that moment of naked emotion coming from Arthur's obsession with Mary.

One thing that I loved, and probably my favorite part of the episode, is that Dean is finally completely convinced of Ketch's identity after seeing him fight. "I've seen your moves," he tells him. "We've gone toe to toe." The idea that Dean can identify a person with such certainty on the basis of having fought with them, the idea that he is so tuned in, so honed in on someone because of that -- well, it is kind of exciting to me. It's just so ..... visceral.

I also have to say that I liked the way Sam immediately moved away from Ketch to stand next to Dean, as soon as Dean announced he was sure about him. I like that in this case he wisely didn't argue or wait for an explanation, but just trusted Dean's instincts.

The bolded part made this episode, IMO. I love it so much when Dean's instincts and "spidey sense" are clearly acknowledged and recognized by any writers as a core characteristic unique to Dean. And the best way that Sam has ever shown support for Dean is when he does what he did here, IMO-when he literally moves himself physically behind his brother in instances such as this in order to show the viewing audience that he "has Dean's back", which is, IMO, the thing that is most important to Dean in both a hunting partner AND in someone to whom he's given his trust. More of this type of backing from Sam, and I might actually be able to think of him again as more of the brother that he was to Dean in Devil's Trap, when Dean fully recognized that "Dad" wasn't really John. This made the episode worth the watch for me, tbh.

But otherwise, I also agree with all the criticisms that have been levelled at this one, writing-wise.

I so wish they would kill Lucifer off and the Evil Colonel Sanders, too.

I'm not as upset about the return of Ketch excepting that they should have just never killed him to begin with IMO, also-which I also agree made it seem like they really and truly shafted Mark Shepard's death of Crowley-which yes, has been the only death that is seemingly going to stick from last season. So tacky, writers/showrunners. So. Tacky.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

48 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

<snip>

I also have to say that I liked the way Sam immediately moved away from Ketch to stand next to Dean, as soon as Dean announced he was sure about him. I like that in this case he wisely didn't argue or wait for an explanation, but just trusted Dean's instincts.

I agree with your whole post, but this part in particular is interesting, because he was so totally side-eyeing Dean's skepticism throughout the episode up until this part. It reminded me of the only other time I can recall Sam doing this - waaaaaay back in Devil's Trap, when Dean figures out John is not John.  ETA: or as @Myrelle just posted above. I really should've caught up before posting. Apologies!

Plotonium poisoning aside, I did love Dean's badassery in this one. I wish I wasn't so jaded as to fully expect the other shoe to drop sooner rather than later.

There is a small part of me that's kind of glad Dean only winged Ketch as he fled though. I was fine with him punching Ketch in the face, repeatedly, but I don't know if I'm ready for him to straight-up murder a human being in what would amount to cold blood, regardless of their history.

Edited November 24, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[SueB]

Couple of additional thoughts:

1) Dumping bodies into an industrial waste channel is not the same thing as dumping them into a river. Depending on the pre-processing, the remains could ultimately be incinerated. They could also be found but I don't think even 'Bones' (TV show) could trace origin. And I can see, in their hurry to dump the bodies and get going to find Cas - -once they knew Lucifer was on the hunt, dumping two people in with the sewage as somewhat poetic on their part.

2) Ketch working for Asmodeus is the biggest clue. I really don't believe anything of Ketch's 'backup story'.  I think Asmodeus' fascination with spells means he likely thinks Rowena is alive and likely wants her and her Book of the Damned.  So he sent Ketch to try and find her and also get in good with the Winchesters (which was an epic fail). Again, I think Ketch was dead and bartered for a return top-side based on his Winchester knowledge. Asmodeus, desperate to find Jack, could have taken up deal. 

Edited November 24, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

In Buck Lemming last episode of 13.02, they had Lucifer himself tell Mary that he would need her yet he dove through the Rift on his own. Did Michael break him when he tortured him again? Or did he just take that chance to find Jack? I mean sure it's a evil thing to just bail on Mary so that's not surprising but what happened to his logic of needing Mary but now he doesn't? What gives? 

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

In Buck Lemming last episode of 13.02, they had Lucifer himself tell Mary that he would need her yet he dove through the Rift on his own. Did Michael break him when he tortured him again? Or did he just take that chance to find Jack? I mean sure it's a evil thing to just bail on Mary so that's not surprising but what happened to his logic of needing Mary but now he doesn't? What gives? 

Well, it's not like Mary was available when the rift was opened. It was either jump through the rift and figure out a new plan on the other side or stay where he was and let Micheal keep beating the crap out of him. 

50 minutes ago, SueB said:

Ketch working for Asmodeus is the biggest clue. I really don't believe anything of Ketch's 'backup story'.  I think Asmodeus' fascination with spells means he likely thinks Rowena is alive and likely wants her and her Book of the Damned.  So he sent Ketch to try and find her and also get in good with the Winchesters (which was an epic fail). Again, I think Ketch was dead and bartered for a return top-side based on his Winchester knowledge. Asmodeus, desperate to find Jack, could have taken up deal. 

Most lies are rooted in some truth, so I believe that Ketch was looking for Rowena for his own reasons, but maybe was also being paid by Asemodeus as well.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

) Dumping bodies into an industrial waste channel is not the same thing as dumping them into a river. Depending on the pre-processing, the remains could ultimately be incinerated. They could also be found but I don't think even 'Bones' (TV show) could trace origin. And I can see, in their hurry to dump the bodies and get going to find Cas - -once they knew Lucifer was on the hunt, dumping two people in with the sewage as somewhat poetic on their part

It might be poetic but I really don't think Sam would do something for that reason. I mean it sounds like they legitimately thought that was the best way to get rid of the body in a hurry. IMO, regardless of Sam dumping the body there, it needed to be salted and burned and THEN dump those remains in the channel. Why was Sam the only one doing the dumping? Seems like Dean would have done it as well.   Was his bashed up knee stopping him from participating? Did Mary help?

No good or bad reason for the boys to not have mentioned salting and burning the body to ensure no coming back as something sketchy

Edited November 24, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

In Buck Lemming last episode of 13.02, they had Lucifer himself tell Mary that he would need her yet he dove through the Rift on his own. Did Michael break him when he tortured him again? Or did he just take that chance to find Jack? I mean sure it's a evil thing to just bail on Mary so that's not surprising but what happened to his logic of needing Mary but now he doesn't? What gives? 

I assumed Lucifer was keeping her around as a just in case. He probably intended to use her as a bargaining chip to get free if the brothers came snooping through the rift.  You know hold her as a hostage and threaten to kill her if they don’t help him get through too. However, during this episode, he was presented with a different way of returning to our world and he jumped (literally) at the chance. 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, it's not like Mary was available when the rift was opened. It was either jump through the rift and figure out a new plan on the other side or stay where he was and let Micheal keep beating the crap out of him. 

Yes. I know Mary wasn't there, that's not my point. I said he jumped through for his own sake but that doesn't change that he had a reason for needing Mary to begin with, and suddenly he doesn't need her and that's not mentioned at all. Plot hole. IMO YMMV

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

. However, during this episode, he was presented with a different way of returning to our world and he jumped (literally) at the chance. 

 

He actually protected Mary from the angels so he had some kind of plan for her. They need to tell us what he was planning and why he could leave her behind beyond saving his own skin. 

What also doesn't make sense is that if he plans to try and save the world from Michael why wouldn't he use the carrot of Mary in the AU to get Sam and Dean's help? Like why did he discourage Cas from telling Dean and Sam?

Edited November 24, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Yes. I know Mary wasn't there, that's not my point. I said he jumped through for his own sake but that doesn't change that he had a reason for needing Mary to begin with, and suddenly he doesn't need her and that's not mentioned at all. Plot hole. IMO YMMV

Lucifer thought he might be able to trade Mary for Jack, but it was a pretty iffy plan, if you ask me. It's not like he actually needed her, just figured if he had her he might as well use her rather then kill her. But, then he didn't have her anymore, so he had to punt. I don't consider that a plot hole or something that needed to be specifically addressed in dialogue since they showed us his window of opportunity was very limited. 

Now, where Mary actually is, I consider that a plot hole, but not one that I'm too worried about because I'm sure they'll address it in an upcoming episode.

10 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I assumed Lucifer was keeping her around as a just in case. He probably intended to use her as a bargaining chip to get free if the brothers came snooping through the rift.  You know hold her as a hostage and threaten to kill her if they don’t help him get through too.

Didn't Lucifer specifically say he was going to trade Mama Winchester for Jack?

[Wayward Son]

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Lucifer thought he might be able to trade Mary for Jack, but it was a pretty iffy plan, if you ask me. It's not like he actually needed her, just figured if he had her he might as well use her rather then kill her. But, then he didn't have her anymore, so he had to punt. I don't consider that a plot hole or something that needed to be specifically addressed in dialogue since they showed us his window of opportunity was very limited. 

Now, where Mary actually is, I consider that a plot hole, but not one that I'm too worried about because I'm sure they'll address it in an upcoming episode.

Didn't Lucifer specifically say he was going to trade Mama Winchester for Jack?

Oh yes he did say that! Never mind then. I’m gonna have to agree with @catrox14 it’s a plot hole. It’s that or when pushcomes to shove Lucifer puts his own safety before having a chance of establishing a relationship with Jack.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Didn't Lucifer specifically say he was going to trade Mama Winchester for Jack?

That was before he learned that Michael has designs on the "real" world". So he still has use of her as a bargaining chip to get the boys to help to save the world from Michael.

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That was before he learned that Michael has designs on the "real" world". So he still has use of her as a bargaining chip to get the boys to help to save the world from Michael.

Okay, I guess, but not something that appeared to be on his agenda.

TBH, I really don't think Mary was the linchpin to any of Lucifer's plans. I think he just figured she could possibly, maybe, perhaps be useful so instead of killing her, he kept her live just in case he might be able to use her.

[gonzosgirrl]

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That was before he learned that Michael has designs on the "real" world". So he still has use of her as a bargaining chip to get the boys to help to save the world from Michael.

Yeah but he rolled his eyes at Castiel's mention of the Winchesters, so I imagine his massive arrogance is in play again. It's always been his downfall and one can only hope it will be again.

If they're going to recycle every plot they've ever had, I wish they'd bring back the soul bomb and let Mary wield it this time. If it could take out Amara, surely it could smite a couple arch angels and a Prince of Hell. 

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Okay, I guess, but not something that appeared to be on his agenda.

TBH, I really don't think Mary was the linchpin to any of Lucifer's plans. I think he just figured she could possibly, maybe, perhaps be useful so instead of killing her, he kept her live just in case he might be able to use her.

Lucifer was willing to defend Mary from angels and Michael. . It was a big deal story wise for Lucifer to keep her alive and have Dean think she's not alive and Sam to think she is and for her to be the reason Sam was training Jack to become an interdimensional can opener That's why it's a big plot hole with Mary thus far.

Anoher writing fail. Mary killed Ketch not Dean and Sam so why did Sam say "We killed you."?

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah but he rolled his eyes at Castiel's mention of the Winchesters, so I imagine his massive arrogance is in play again. It's always been his downfall and one can only hope it will be again.

I took that just to be his general aggravation that Cas wasnt just going along with his plan. Whether Lucifer does anything  about Mary doesn't entirely bother me but that her only mention was as a possible torture target of Michaels is insufficient IMO.

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Lucifer was willing to defend Mary from angels and Michael. . It was a big deal story wise for Lucifer to keep her alive and have Dean think she's not alive and Sam to think she is and for her to be the reason Sam was training Jack to become an interdimensional can opener That's why it's a big plot hole with Mary thus far.

I guess I didn't see it as a big plot point, but just a simple explainer as to why Lucifer didn't kill Mary immediately after they were trapped in the Alternate. I never considered Lucifer's plan would come to fruition though. I just figured either the boys wouldn't cooperate with Lucifer's blackmail or Mary and Lucifer would end up separated and Lucifer would have to find a different plan to get his spawn. ::shrugs::

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Lucifer was willing to defend Mary from angels and Michael. . It was a big deal story wise for Lucifer to keep her alive and have Dean think she's not alive and Sam to think she is and for her to be the reason Sam was training Jack to become an interdimensional can opener That's why it's a big plot hole with Mary thus far.

Anoher writing fail. Mary killed Ketch not Dean and Sam so why did Sam say "We killed you."?

I took that just to be his general aggravation that Cas wasnt just going along with his plan. Whether Lucifer does anything  about Mary doesn't entirely bother me but that her only mention was as a possible torture target of Michaels is insufficient IMO.

I just think his needing her was a matter of circumstance - as soon as he saw another means of escape, she ceased to matter to him. 

I figure she'll either be a pawn for Michael once he breaks through, or she'll escape and band up with other old/new characters to fight from the other side. 

Or hey, maybe Michael will just brainwash her into being his new sidekick.  

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Or hey, maybe Michael will just brainwash her into being his new sidekick

I do wonder if Dean will have to make a choice to be Michael's vessel for ...reasons vs Mary.

 

12 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I guess I didn't see it as a big plot point, but just a simple explainer as to why Lucifer didn't kill Mary immediately after they were trapped in the Alternate. I never considered Lucifer's plan would come to fruition though. I just figured either the boys wouldn't cooperate with Lucifer's blackmail or Mary and Lucifer would end up separated and Lucifer would have to find a different plan to get his spawn. ::shrugs::

Yeah, just one of those things that we see differently. I see it as important plot wise and you don't which is why I see it as a plot hole and you don't. To each our own :). 

[SueB]

Escaping Michael would, I think, out prioritize any benefit from hanging onto Mother Winchester.  Besides, split-second decision.  Lucifer made a good call. (Which is a sentence I would never thought I'd type).

BTW - excellent dialog:

Quote

 

Lucifer: Idiot. Can you see Michael is a monster? Pure evil?

Kevin: I'm confused. Aren't you Satan? Which would make you the evil monster?

 

No Kevin, you are not wrong.  That's Satan.  Michael is evil too, but Satan is no bueno.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, SueB said:

No Kevin, you are not wrong.  That's Satan.  Michael is evil too, but Satan is no bueno.

The AU Michael story needs to be fleshed out more before I'll call him evil like Lucifer level evil. Didn't AU Bobby say they were caught between the angels and the demons and that the war was never intended to harm humanity on purpose?

Maybe the apocalypse world happened not solely because Michael killed Lucifer in the AU but because Lucifer was destroying humanity on that side. Maybe Michael went nuclear in the AU to stop Lucifer and his minions. Just my speculation. Nothing based on any spoilers.

Maybe AUMichael wasn't hardened as we see him now. I'd be down for a Future!Dean parallel with AU!Michael. Like maybe he became that hardened leader who implemented those policies because of the havoc Lucifer and his minions were wreaking. Like did humans start to side with Lucifer in the AU so that's why Michael came down and ripped Lucifer apart over Abilene?  I want to know why the baby ears necklace is a thing.

I think right now I'm reserving judgment. I'm probably also a fan because he tortured Lucifer and that is a plus in my book. Right now this is actually the one SL that has me curious. I'm sure I'll ultimately be disappointed though.

[catrox14]

This is the scene that I was like WTF is happening in this episode. Sam has been like 5 feet taller than Dean throughout this season and now here he is with a Big Giant Head? This is the moment I thought, "Okay this is a joke episode, like the French Mistake or some meta, dream thing in Sam or Dean's head". But NOPE apparently it's all legit in canon.

But honestly, what is the director's reason for this other than I guess to be funny?

[SueB]

@catrox14 as far as I can tell, it's just a standard two shot with double focus length.  Not revolutionary.  Usually, if you are going to be zooming into one character's face, it's to get their reaction.  Not sure that was what he was going for here.  It's also a time-saving technique he may have employed so they didn't have to do an over/over setup.  He could have easily pulled back some.  Not sure why it was so upclose for the conversation.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, SueB said:

@catrox14 as far as I can tell, it's just a standard two shot with double focus length.  Not revolutionary.  Usually, if you are going to be zooming into one character's face, it's to get their reaction.  Not sure that was what he was going for here.  It's also a time-saving technique he may have employed so they didn't have to do an over/over setup.  He could have easily pulled back some.  Not sure why it was so upclose for the conversation.

I understand it's a two shot. It's the ridiculous size of Sam's head compared to how SMALL Dean looks that I don't understand. Like it's JARRING it's so noticeable. But then I've noticed how often Dean has been shown to be so much smaller than Sam. Maybe it's just another exaggerated moment of that.

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I understand it's a two shot. It's the ridiculous size of Sam's head compared to how SMALL Dean looks that I don't understand. Like it's JARRING it's so noticeable. But then I've noticed how often Dean has been shown to be so much smaller than Sam. Maybe it's just another exaggerated moment of that.

Even the publicity stills are exaggerating their size difference lately. Once I started noticing, it became glaring both in stills and on screen. 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

The AU Michael story needs to be fleshed out more before I'll call him evil like Lucifer level evil. Didn't AU Bobby say they were caught between the angels and the demons and that the war was never intended to harm humanity on purpose?

Maybe the apocalypse world happened not solely because Michael killed Lucifer in the AU but because Lucifer was destroying humanity on that side. Maybe Michael went nuclear in the AU to stop Lucifer and his minions. Just my speculation. Nothing based on any spoilers.

Maybe AUMichael wasn't hardened as we see him now. I'd be down for a Future!Dean parallel with AU!Michael. Like maybe he became that hardened leader who implemented those policies because of the havoc Lucifer and his minions were wreaking. Like did humans start to side with Lucifer in the AU so that's why Michael came down and ripped Lucifer apart over Abilene?  I want to know why the baby ears necklace is a thing.

I think right now I'm reserving judgment. I'm probably also a fan because he tortured Lucifer and that is a plus in my book. Right now this is actually the one SL that has me curious. I'm sure I'll ultimately be disappointed though.

I must have really zoned out in the AU scenes.  I have no clue about Abilene o baby ears. Yikes. 

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

I must have really zoned out in the AU scenes.  I have no clue about Abilene o baby ears. Yikes. 

Yeah it wasn't in this episode. In 12.23, Bobby said that he didn't recognize Cas as an angel because he didn't have a necklace of baby ears. Then in 13.02, Michael told Lucifer he killed the AU!Lucifer by "Ripping him apart in the skies over Abilene".

Just another thought. I noticed in this episode there were crosses over the shoulders of Michael and Lucifer just like the cross over the shoulder of Dean in 13.05 and 13.06 when they met up with Castiel again. Maybe it means nothing..Maybe it means something for Dean and Michael?

[Omegamom]

Thoughts:

Way too much going on in this episode. I came out of it thinking we had gotten a boatload of arc-story but nothing very coherent in toto.

Kevin, yay! And Kevin from before he got cynical and grown-up after being bamboozled and messed around with by Crowley and Metatron and various powered-up beings using him for their own purposes. It would be really nice to see more of him.

Ketch, hmm. Why? Rowena's spell fixed her broken neck, so I could see it fixing just about anything, so even if he had been beheaded/burned/what-have-you, I could see the spell still working. I actually wanted him to be Alexander, because it would have been interesting to see how closely he followed Arthur's personality. If this indicates they're going to bring Rowena back, yay! I love her.

Depowered Luci. Hmm. I don't remember just how depowered Cas was by having a vial of grace taken away. In any event, I would expect an archangel's grace to be either extra powerful or more of it, so found the amount of depowering Luci had to be unbelievable.

Michael's motivation: Paradise on earth! We messed this place up so bad, let's take over Other Earth, which is still pretty and clean! Is God around in Other Earth, or has he gone AWOL there, too? Was Other-Earth kinda dim and grey before the war? Surely Michael would think himself good enough to clean up Other Earth once they get all the demons? Why torture Luci's physical body? Or why torture him with human-style torture? How about some good old-fashioned electric-blue-eyed power with wing-action?

For that matter, what happened to demons being able to fling humans about with power? I mean, yeah, they're good thugs with human-style fighting, but they used to be able to pin humans like bugs up against walls, or scooch them across floor into a heap, stuff like that. The angel blade use is because after the angels fell to Earth and had the angel wars, there were lots of dead angels, and thus lots of abandoned angel blades, handy for killing both angels and demons. If I were a demon, or a Hunter, and knew where some angels had been killed, I'd go grab me one, too.

One interesting thing I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but this season there have been a helluva lot of "monsters" who need help, and Dean and Sam are helping...shapeshifter psychologist lady, the witch this evening, Jack...wasn't there another?

I figure Jack being undetectable by everyone is just some Super Duper Nephilim Power, so will accept it.

Cas is being stupid about Luci, yes. But I guess the show has decided that depowering Luci makes him a suitable substitute for Crowley? (No.)

Jack making more angels? How?

[Locutus]

You know, I've always wondered, does salting and burning a dead body whose soul has gone to heaven destroy the soul? Or is it only if they're not in heaven? That would be a bitch. Here you are enjoying endless Christmas mornings and POOF!

[catrox14]

53 minutes ago, Omegamom said:

Jack making more angels? How?

Oh I'm sure there is fanfic out there to address this LOL. I mean EEK!

[Dobian]

I liked the unlikely alliances and bringing back dead characters Ketch and Kevin.  Dean got to make a Colonel Sanders crack about Asmodeus and the main plot this year is off to a pretty good start I think.  I'm hoping for a showdown later this season where Dean asks Asmodeus to say "It's finger lickin' good."  Please write that into the scene, writers.  Just don't bring back Rowena, I've had plenty of her.

[MysteryGuest]

18 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Yes. I know Mary wasn't there, that's not my point. I said he jumped through for his own sake but that doesn't change that he had a reason for needing Mary to begin with, and suddenly he doesn't need her and that's not mentioned at all. Plot hole.

When Lucifer told Mary he needed her to carry out his plan, it was before he knew there was an AU Michael.  Once that was discovered, I think his original plan went out the window.  The fact that Michael was stronger than him, and that he de-graced him a bit made Lucifer's escaping imperative number one.  I doubt he gave Mary a 2nd thought when he ran for the rift.  

Once on the other side, his main objective was trying to survive and to get Cas to help him defeat Michael.  I don't think he holds the Winchesters in the same esteem as Cas and God do, so asking for their help probably didn't occur to him right away.  They're a nuisance to him most of the time.  But I have no doubt that's going to change.  He's going to need them.

I'm assuming Michael has Mary, since Lucifer did say at one point, "why don't you torture Mary for a while".  I don't think she's just wandering around the AU by herself.

[Wayward Son]

My opinion about Lucifer is as follows: 

 

- His initial plan was to focus on getting custody of his shiny new toy Jack. In order to achieve this he planned to offer Sam and Dean an exchange. He’d give them Mary in exchange for Jack. 

- However, Lucifer then learnt of the existence of AU Michael and found himself weakened. Lucifer is a selfish creature by nature and shall always put himself above others including Jack.

- This means his priority quickly shifted from attaining his new toy to surviving AU Michael. This is why he abandoned Mary. Her only use to him, helping him to get Jack was no longer of interest to him. It is why he is willing to work with Castiel and why during their conversation he bluntly states “I know custody of my son is a no go” 

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

When Lucifer told Mary he needed her to carry out his plan, it was before he knew there was an AU Michael.  Once that was discovered, I think his original plan went out the window.  The fact that Michael was stronger than him, and that he de-graced him a bit made Lucifer's escaping imperative number one.  I doubt he gave Mary a 2nd thought when he ran for the rift.  

Once on the other side, his main objective was trying to survive and to get Cas to help him defeat Michael.  I don't think he holds the Winchesters in the same esteem as Cas and God do, so asking for their help probably didn't occur to him right away.  They're a nuisance to him most of the time.  But I have no doubt that's going to change.  He's going to need them.

I'm assuming Michael has Mary, since Lucifer did say at one point, "why don't you torture Mary for a while".  I don't think she's just wandering around the AU by herself.

My beef, with which no one need concur, is that at this juncture IMO, Mary's status should not be left to audience conjecture. It's not good mystery building. It's the stupid kind of shock and awe/eww writing that Dabb has become so enamored by. 

It's annoying for me because Mary punched Lucifer through the Rift and she had some status for a hot minute as a bargaining chip. Her status was driving the angst between the boys over opening the Rift. For me, that's not good writing to leave her fate to one lousy line of dialogue that only implies she's in jeopardy from Michael. 

Instead we get some kind of potential redemption arc for frakking Lucifer, who threatened to kill her and then changed his mind, and escapes. Then they bring back fucking Ketch, who brainwashed Mary, tortured her after she slept with him and who rightfully got to shoot him in the head, but Mary doesn't warrant even a brief shot showing her just sitting somewhere? I mean I don't even LIKE Mary but this is not the kind of writing that I would consider good mystery build up. JMHO> 

Edited November 25, 2017 by catrox14
clarifying thoughts

[Lady Calypso]

15 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This is the scene that I was like WTF is happening in this episode. Sam has been like 5 feet taller than Dean throughout this season and now here he is with a Big Giant Head? This is the moment I thought, "Okay this is a joke episode, like the French Mistake or some meta, dream thing in Sam or Dean's head". But NOPE apparently it's all legit in canon.

But honestly, what is the director's reason for this other than I guess to be funny?

I also noticed this odd camera angle. I think Richard Speight was trying to go for something different? I think he was just trying to be a little artsy, as these shots aren't uncommon in arty films. Not really sure why, but it was distracting.

17 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Lucifer was willing to defend Mary from angels and Michael. . It was a big deal story wise for Lucifer to keep her alive and have Dean think she's not alive and Sam to think she is and for her to be the reason Sam was training Jack to become an interdimensional can opener That's why it's a big plot hole with Mary thus far.

Anoher writing fail. Mary killed Ketch not Dean and Sam so why did Sam say "We killed you."?

I do think that it was more of a writing fail. It seems like they had the idea to keep Lucifer/Mary as a buddy cop subplot for a while, but for whatever reason, they diverted plans because maybe Samantha Smith wasn't available and they had other plans in mind which included Lucifer and Cas instead. 

I will say one thing: this show sometimes goes another way in the arcs that they write. I expect it to go one way but then they do something totally different. It's usually not even in a good way, either.

Obviously, Lucifer ditching the Keep Mary As A Hostage plan changed because I'm sure he took the first opportunity he could to get out of the AU world. I mean, why would he stick around with Mary when he had possibly the only chance to escape, especially since he's less powerful than Michael in this AU world? Also after finding out about Michael trying to create a rift to get to Lucifer's world, I think Lucifer had to switch courses at the last minute. I'm sure his thought process was escaping first so that Michael couldn't take over his world too. He's a narcissist first and farmost. His thought wasn't on getting Jack back when he jumped through the rift. That only happened afterward, when he realized he was low on power and getting Jack back on his own was now going to be tough. 

Now, why he insisted on needing Mary in the first place if he thought he could stop the Winchesters anyway, I have no idea. At this point, if it doesn't make sense character-wise, I just assume it's because of the Plot of the Week. That is, they needed Mary to not just die right off the bat. Plus, they'll make some excuse as to why the Winchesters need to stop AU Michael and save their mother. Not that it makes sense, as AU Michael is already finding a way to create rifts and will come to start Apocalypse 2.0/3.0 in their world, but I'm sure they'll half ass a reason. AU Michael has no reason to give them back Mary, so I'm not sure how they're going to handle that arc. 

But seriously, I'm not sure why AU Michael would be keeping Mary alive after Lucifer escaped. I could be missing something here, but if AU Michael can create rifts and since Mary has no grace of her own to use for the power of the rift, why would she still be alive? 

[MysteryGuest]

I don't think we're supposed to be wondering where Mary is.  I think we're supposed to know she's with Michael.  She was with Lucifer when Michael took him, and Lucifer mentions that they need to start picking on her, rather than him, when he's being tortured.  I think they saved themselves a few bucks in the budget by not showing her, but I don't think there's supposed to be any ambiguity in regard to Mary's situation right now.  She's gone from being Lucifer's pawn to being Michael's.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

But seriously, I'm not sure why AU Michael would be keeping Mary alive after Lucifer escaped. I could be missing something here, but if AU Michael can create rifts and since Mary has no grace of her own to use for the power of the rift, why would she still be alive? 

Given the grossness of BuckLemming's writing with non con impregnation and birth, I think I can find one reason. To create more nephilims.  It's gross and disgusting but let's be real, Buck Lemming already did gross and disgusting with Kelly..so why not make it even worse with Mary, the mother of Dean and Sam to be considered as a "brood mare" by AU!Michael. I mean if they really wanted to make AUMichael more evil than Lucifer, welp, there you go. And Dabb already had some gross human dude act rapey towards her before she was saved by Lucifer.

So I seriously won't put it past them at this point.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think we're supposed to be wondering where Mary is.  I think we're supposed to know she's with Michael.  She was with Lucifer when Michael took him, and Lucifer mentions that they need to start picking on her, rather than him, when he's being tortured.  I think they saved themselves a few bucks in the budget by not showing her, but I don't think there's supposed to be any ambiguity in regard to Mary's situation right now.  She's gone from being Lucifer's pawn to being Michael's.

I'm not communicating well LOL. I know we know she's with Michael. My point is that IMO she deserves to be shown on screen. Not where she is but how she is right now. Her face should be shown regardless of budget. Show us a picture of her.

I don't like that Mary has become an almost invisible pawn in a chess game between like 5 male characters, The Devil, Ketch, Michael, Dean and Sam. It bothers me and I'm not usually overly bothered by the optics of male/female dynamics in this show but this is pretty glaring.

I will laugh though if it turns out that Mary is sleeping with someone in Michael's garrison.  I don't want that to happen to Mary. It was bad enough with Ketch.

Maybe Michael is going to try and woo her to be his bride or some such nonsense.

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not communicating well LOL. I know we know she's with Michael.

Ok, I'm sorry.  I thought you were saying that by not showing Mary, it left us to wonder exactly what had happened to her.  I hear what you're saying about the optics of not even seeing her, but with so much other stuff going on, not to mention the additional cast shoved into this episode, I'm betting her absence was more a budget decision than anything else.  

As to just why Michael is keeping her alive, that's left to speculate.  My guess is since he doesn't really know what's in our universe, he's probably just keeping his options open.  She was important to Lucifer for some reason, so he's not going to just kill her off until he knows whether he'll need her or not.  Please...no more hookups with Mama Winchester!!

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I also noticed this odd camera angle. I think Richard Speight was trying to go for something different? I think he was just trying to be a little artsy, as these shots aren't uncommon in arty films. Not really sure why, but it was distracting

I get that they are used in arty movies or even in this show they have used wonky shots, but those usually fell in line with the story of the episode. Like there were reasons to have that kind of shot.

Of course, my snarky side would say it's showing that Sam has a big head (read ego) and Dean is small and drunk in the corner and not being listened to or conversely that Dean is taking a back seat to Sam but that doesn't work either because they were mostly partners other than Dean being certain that Ketch was not his evil twin. 

If they had done this in something like the Big Empty or even when Dean died in Advanced Thanatology I could see the rationale. I was kind of expecting a reveal that this was a different Earth. This just seemed weirdly random with no good reason.

11 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Ok, I'm sorry.  I thought you were saying that by not showing Mary, it left us to wonder exactly what had happened to her.  I

Well I am saying that to a degree as well. We only know that she is with Michael. We don't know how she is faring with Michael. That's what I think deserves to be shown. Lucifer saying "Go beat on Mary for awhile", could just mean that Mary has managed to avoid that fate because of Lucifer being Michael's focus or maybe she's eating grapes and drinking wine whilst being revered? Or it could mean that Mary is being beaten and tortured along with Lucifer. 

I'm sure it was a budget issue, that's why I'm suggesting just a picture of her in a chair or something would be sufficient. I'm just not diggin' what I think is gonna happen with Mary. The precedence has been set with Kelly. And also poor Mary and John being pawns in the original apocalpyse and then now she's likely a pawn in the other world.  It's just ugh for me.

Edited November 25, 2017 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well I am saying that to a degree as well. We only know that she is with Michael. We don't know how she is faring with Michael. That's what I think deserves to be shown. Lucifer saying "Go beat on Mary for awhile", could just mean that Mary has managed to avoid that fate because of Lucifer being Michael's focus or maybe she's eating grapes and drinking wine whilst being revered? Or it could mean that Mary is being beaten and tortured along with Lucifer. 

Yes, it's true we don't know Mary's condition.  I personally doubt she's being treated as a guest, but then who knows.  Based on the preview for next week's episode, we may know what Mary's fate is for another few episodes.

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well I am saying that to a degree as well. We only know that she is with Michael. We don't know how she is faring with Michael. That's what I think deserves to be shown. Lucifer saying "Go beat on Mary for awhile", could just mean that Mary has managed to avoid that fate because of Lucifer being Michael's focus or maybe she's eating grapes and drinking wine whilst being revered? Or it could mean that Mary is being beaten and tortured along with Lucifer. 

It could be Samantha Smith was unavailable, but I'm guessing it will be shown in a later episode. It's their typical MO, if you ask me. Like, how they typically deal with Cass when he's not in an episode, he's just gone and sometimes there is no mention of him for a couple episodes.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

It could be Samantha Smith was unavailable, but I'm guessing it will be shown in a later episode. It's their typical MO, if you ask me. Like, how they typically deal with Cass when he's not in an episode, he's just gone and sometimes there is no mention of him for a couple episodes.

 

Yes I know that's how they deal with Cas and that's kind of become an expected thing. They did it with Mary last season as well. It's expected when the character is off screen. I was pissed last season when they didn't show Cas in Heaven. That was stupid.

The difference for me is that in THIS episode, when they spend time showing Lucifer's fate in the AU for a good 10 to 15 minutes before he escapes but they can't be arsed to even use an insert set pic of Mary is a glaring omission that I find poor storytelling. YMMV

[Aeryn13]

I so dislike the character of Mary at this point, I wasn`t even bothered they didn`t show her. Well, she was in the previouslies, that stupid-looking, faux bad-ass scene where she punches a stumbling Lucifer through the portal. Now I know that was done to re-establish the universe-hopping but it made me roll my eyes nonetheless.  

No idea why Michael would keep her alive. Maybe because she is also from another verse. But since I understand it that the Campbell line is the Lucifer tie and the Winchester line the Michael one in the big vessel breeding, she probably wouldn`t even work at that angle. Not that I remotely want it to happen. In all seriousness, Michael would have had no reason NOT to curb-stomp her. She ain`t a prophet or a great mind which appears to be his quota for letting humans live and serve on his "staff". 

I did find it hilarious that apparently he enticed Kevin with a different universe - full of chicks. Lucifer`s gobsmacked "excuse me?" was one of the fun moments. As was the "Kevin?" The character of Lucifer has really annoyed me in recent years but Mark Pellegrino`s line readings of befuddled WTF-ness over all things AU-verse were chuckle-worthy.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Yes I know that's how they deal with Cas and that's kind of become an expected thing. They did it with Mary last season as well. It's expected when the character is off screen. I was pissed last season when they didn't show Cas in Heaven. That was stupid.

The difference for me is that in THIS episode, when they spend time showing Lucifer's fate in the AU for a good 10 to 15 minutes before he escapes but they can't be arsed to even use an insert set pic of Mary is a glaring omission that I find poor storytelling. YMMV

Yeah, I agree it ain't great, but if the actress is unavailable, the actress is unavailable. They still have to make the episode and I believe all will be explained later when the actress is available. ::shrugs::

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Yeah, I agree it ain't great, but if the actress is unavailable, the actress is unavailable.

I thought they made her a regular? Did they not? Is it just Pellegrino and Calvert? Because regulars have to be available whenever the show wants them. I believe that`s why they made Calvert one right off the gate. Can`t have all these plans for a character, only to have the actor say "sorry, new project" down the line.  

[Lady Calypso]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought they made her a regular? Did they not? Is it just Pellegrino and Calvert? Because regulars have to be available whenever the show wants them. I believe that`s why they made Calvert one right off the gate. Can`t have all these plans for a character, only to have the actor say "sorry, new project" down the line.  

She's not a regular. I paid attention to the episode she was in this season, and she was still in the guest credits. 

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought they made her a regular? Did they not? Is it just Pellegrino and Calvert? Because regulars have to be available whenever the show wants them. I believe that`s why they made Calvert one right off the gate. Can`t have all these plans for a character, only to have the actor say "sorry, new project" down the line.  

I've only heard of Misha, Alex Calvert and Mark Pellegrino being regulars. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

Ah okay. Still kinda got the feeling Bucklemming just weren`t interested in showing the character. They had enough messy mini-arcs as it was. 

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah, I agree it ain't great, but if the actress is unavailable, the actress is unavailable. They still have to make the episode and I believe all will be explained later when the actress is available. ::shrugs::

She doesn't have to be available for them to creatively insert a set pic of her. They have used pics of cast members in the past when needed. It's pretty clear to me they didn't intend to show us Mary and that's what I dislike.

[Wayward Son]

Yeah Alexander, Mark P and Misha are the only regulars and appear in that order in the credits. I don’t blame you for thinking she was a regular @Aeryn13 since she was in more episodes than Mark S and Misha last season. 

[MysteryGuest]

Mary really wasn't germane to this episode, so it didn't bother me that she wasn't shown.  It was all about Michael vs. Lucifer, and Lucifer escaping back to our world.  

I had assumed that the fact that Lucifer was still alive would ruin this season for me, but that was before I knew about Asmodeus and the return of Ketch.  All of a sudden the possibility of an alliance with Lucifer seems like a good idea to me, if it means taking the two of them out.  Funny how things change.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Mary really wasn't germane to this episode, so it didn't bother me that she wasn't shown.  It was all about Michael vs. Lucifer, and Lucifer escaping back to our world.  

I had assumed that the fact that Lucifer was still alive would ruin this season for me, but that was before I knew about Asmodeus and the return of Ketch.  All of a sudden the possibility of an alliance with Lucifer seems like a good idea to me, if it means taking the two of them out.  Funny how things change.

This is a problem in the storyline though. The only two characters who ended up being trapped in the AU were Mary and Lucifer.

If Lucifer was the only one trapped, then keep it solely about him. But they trapped the resurrected mother of the main protagonists with the mortal enemy of one of the main protagonists.

They featured her with him in the revisits to the AU but nope this one time, she's just an afterthought to remind the audience, oh yeah Mary is there

Actually, I'm going to retract something. I would rather they never mentioned Mary at all than as an afterthought line from Lucifer. Because at that point Mary did become germane. And if she gets a mention then she should be shown insoem way.

I'm salty about Lucifer having escaped and Mary is stuck.