S13.E07: War of the Worlds

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

That sounds just as stupid as Crowley giving Ketch a hellhound. Oh, show...why??? Why Ketch of all people? *cries*

Someone must be in love with DHJ. Maybe he works for cheap. LOL.

Gods, why not have him just be a stupid AU version of Ketch and not make Dean and Sam stupid to resurrect him? Just say he came through a PORTAL that we know the BMoL have access to.have Kevin in the AU open portals for everyone if they pay him enough money.

[MysteryGuest]

I forgot about Lady Toni.  So are we to assume they just dumped her body in the creek along with Ketch's?  Way to stay under the radar, boys.  Just keep piling up those dead bodies behind the Bunker.  Honestly, that's the  stupidest thing they've done in a while, IMO.  Why must they always dumb down our favorite characters just to move their absurd plots along?

[Pondlass1]

The ridiculousness of Ketch returning didn't bother me as much as Cas sitting and chatting in a bar with Lucifer.  

I'm not keen on the actor portraying Michael. Not enough oomph - he's supposed to be an archangel.  Mark P is the stronger actor but I really want Lucifer dead (for good) and maybe Michael get a chance at a story.

[MysteryGuest]

If they were so enamored with the actor, then go ahead with the evil twin plot.  It's completely soap operaish, but certainly no worse than what they gave us.  Or maybe just don't kill him last season.  Maybe have him escape.  Then we could have been left wondering whether he'd actually seek revenge on the Winchesters, or consider himself lucky to get away.  I'm really curious as to how much money these writers make.  I have no storytelling ability whatsoever, but I do have a modicum of common sense.  I swear I could do better than these writers do at coming up with interesting, and at least semi-plausible storylines.   

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The best hunters in  the world don't  do Hunters 101 which is a salt and burn. so it doesn't  come bacck as vengeful spirit or a revenant? And considering Ketch was enemy 101 leaving that to chance was fucking stooopid. Why not have Ketch come back as a revenant just to remind them that they still need to do the basics.? /headdesk

Actually, I don't think it would matter what they did to his body, the spell would've resurrected him no matter what. So I don't that made our boys look stupid, but leaving Ketch in the bunker alone...well, they have a perfectly good trunk for these sorts of things, do they not?

[Pondlass1]

Andrew is in a bind when one of the writers is married to an executive (or whatever Bob is).  And poor Dick Jr. getting stuck with directing this one....

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Or maybe just don't kill him last season.

They don't plan ahead.  And I'd rather they brought back Mick than one-note Ketch.

They should've had him say "Chewbracca" (sp?) that would've at least given us all a laugh.

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Actually, I don't think it would matter what they did to his body, the spell would've resurrected him no matter what.

It's just the idea that they leave all of these dead bodies just lying around that bothers me.  Maybe I'm forgetting things, but I don't remember that being something they do.  They normally clean up the scene of whatever hunt they've been on.  But when someone dies in the Bunker, they just put the body out with the trash?  I just find it difficult to believe, and to me, it does make Sam and Dean look sloppy, which I don't think they are at all.  The Bunker is warded, but it's not invisible.  So anyone out wandering in the local woods could stumble on the bodies and alert the police.  Why draw the unnecessary attention to yourself is my question?  Again, it's not earth-shattering, but it's the little details that are important.

[Pondlass1]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

it does make Sam and Dean look sloppy

They're getting sloppier and sloppier.  I'm re-watching season 1 and they were flipping brilliant back then!  All those concussions are having an effect.

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

If they were so enamored with the actor, then go ahead with the evil twin plot.  

Part of the mystery cold also be which twin was more evil.  And it isn't as if identical twins don't exist.  

[ahrtee]

Just another random thought...why did Rowena give Ketch the "real" resurrection spell?  After all, it's not like he could test it in advance, or, if he did and it didn't work, he could do anything about it.  It's not like she always kept her promises--remember her trying to cheat Lucifer/Vince out of his eternal youth (or whatever) spell that made him disintegrate instead?  

[SueB]

Quick thoughts before breakfast:

Good:
- Kevin is back!  "I don't have my Adderall" Kevin, but it's Kevin.  LOVE this.
- Dean insisting on Ketch is evil. Sam doing due dilligence but following Dean's instincts. Plus testing Ketch with the Mary comment and spotting him as really him with the fighting. Dean ready to kill Ketch without hesitation. 
- FIght sequence - demons
- Lucifer getting the shit beat out of him and losing some of his grace
- Ketch is an agent for Asmodeus
- Ketch is still sadistic psycho but he's not wrong about Rowena. So Rowena may still be alive! I'm fairly certain the entire POINT of torturing witches was to draw out the Winchesters. Nicely played.

mmkay
- Bringing Luci back to warn of the Micheal incursion but mostly depowered
- Cas calling Dean and trying to warn him. Points off for NOT warning him.
- "Don't do anything stupid." I mean, warranted... but a bit of a diss to Cas.
- Kevin's spell only opened a wee multidimensional rift

Bad
- Too much, per usual, in one episode
- Cas and Luci trapped by Asmodeus -- it's for PLOT but it relies on a transitory de-powering of BOTH Cas and Luci -- yes, they set it up... but I don't like it.  And it'll lead to Cas and Luci "team up" -- which I like even less.
- Ketch's beard.

Ugly
- Asmodeus' accent is too OTT. His powers too fantastical - he is NOT Crowley's replacement
- Lucifer will NEVER be Crowley's replacement - working with him while God could neuter him?  Acceptible.  Working with him after he killed Cas, tortured Sam for 150 years, cause ALL the Apocalypse destruction, essentially is responsible for evil in this work and is unrepentant, and is generally a dick?  NOPE.  I don't want Lucifer redeemed.
- The 'I got the spell from Rowena' resurrection.  WEAKSAUCE ***

 

*** Alternate theory - Ketch showed up in Hell after dying - Asmodeus let him bargain for another chance upstairs based on his knowledge.  If a crossroads demon can resurrect a dead Sam Winchester, then Asmodeus should be able to resurrect a dead Ketch.  Everyone in Hell probably heard how Rowena survived so he told that story (about getting the spell for resurrection) in order to protect his deal with Asmodeus.

 

ETA: I presumed Ketch & Toni were not buried properly because they were out of time once Sam told them Lucifer was out of the cage.  So they did a body dump.  Not great but not unprecented.  

Edited November 24, 2017 by SueB

[gonzosgirrl]

I just feel like there should be some things you can count on in the show, or else everything that happens is meaningless. I know it's a show 'joke' now that nobody ever really dies on Supernatural, but now I'm laughing at them instead of with them. There is no investing in a resolution of a story if they are just going to pull a magic spell out of their  ass leg and reverse it. I don't expect Sam or Dean to die really most sincerely, but Chuckdammit, everybody else should be fair game and should STAY THE F**K DEAD!

And I'm sorry, I just can't with the stupidity of Castiel yet again. And I. Just. Can't. with Lucifer any more, at all, ever. Gah. I am still hoping this whole episode was some kind of super-meta prank on the fandom and we can just write it off to a Dabb/BuckLemming fever dream.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I didn't realize this one was directed by Richard.  I'm kind of surprised.  

The direction of this episode was not good either IMO. The fight scene was good but I put that to the stunt coordinator vs Dick.

There is a scene where Dean is sitting in a chair drinking something and Sam is in the foreground. Sam's head is GIGANTIC. Like it literally takes up 3/4 of the screen. At that point I started hoping it was some kind of stupid meta episode or like a French Mistake level of weird given the rest of what went before.  Then the scene with Ketch and Sam sitting in chairs opposite of each other, didn't look to me like Jared and David were actually IN the scene at the same time because they didn't look like they were looking at each other at all. It was really weird. Again, I thought this is a joke episode right? Or some other AU?

I've read that Buck Lemming will not allow any changes to their scripts at all so at this point, I lay the blame on them 100%.

So here's a thought. Could Ketch be a demon who can shift like Asmodeus which explains why he would be helping him at all. Like maybe he did die, went to Hell, was converted to a Prince of Hell so he can shift willy nilly  and he just made up the Rowena spell story.  And the reason they don't know that he's a demon is they didn't lock him in the dungeon but instead the armory which they have NEVER put someone in before. Is there some on screen rationale for them putting him in the armory instead of the dungeon? Other than weapons grade stupid writing?  Although that doesn't explain why he has that shoulder injury..so I guess probably not. Just nonsensical writing

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Part of the mystery cold also be which twin was more evil.  And it isn't as if identical twins don't exist.  

Pure daytime soap opera trope. I mean, I don't expect much out of this show any more, but this is lame, even for Dabb/BuckLemming.

[MysteryGuest]

As much as I'm not thrilled about any sort of redemption for Lucifer, the writing was sort of on the wall when they didn't kill him off last season.  But especially when we learned that Michael would be back and that he was going to be the new Big Bad.  I also get why the didn't let Cas spill the Lucifer beans to the Winchesters yet, because drama.  They have to drag that out a bit.  It's looking like both Sam and Dean will get another opportunity to go to Hell on a rescue mission for Cas and Lucifer.  Can't wait for that...not.

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Actually, I don't think it would matter what they did to his body, the spell would've resurrected him no matter what. So I don't that made our boys look stupid, but leaving Ketch in the bunker alone...well, they have a perfectly good trunk for these sorts of things, do they not?

Are you suggesting that the resurrection spell works on cremains, reconstitutes them back into a whole body that could dig itself out of a grave?  That seems absurd even for this show LOL.

There  is no good or bad excuse for the boys to not salt and burn every single body they are responsible for killing especially enemies who they have murdered. I have always presumed that Dean burned the Thinman's body and they burned Randy and the Rapists because otherwise the cops would have found Dean's DNA all over the place.

[SueB]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The direction of this episode was not good either IMO. The fight scene was good but I put that to the stunt coordinator vs Dick.

There is a scene where Dean is sitting in a chair drinking something and Sam is in the foreground. Sam's head is GIGANTIC. Like it literally takes up 3/4 of the screen. At that point I started hoping it was some kind of stupid meta episode or like a French Mistake level of weird given the rest of what went before.  Then the scene with Ketch and Sam sitting in chairs opposite of each other, didn't look to me like Jared and David were actually IN the scene at the same time because they didn't look like they were looking at each other at all. It was really weird. Again, I thought this is a joke episode right? Or some other AU?

1) I've read that Buck Lemming will not allow any changes to their scripts at all so at this point, I lay the blame on them 100%.

2) So here's a thought. Could Ketch be a demon who can shift like Asmodeus which explains why he would be helping him at all. Like maybe he did die, went to Hell, was converted to a Prince of Hell so he can shift willy nilly  and he just made up the Rowena spell story.  And the reason they don't know that he's a demon is they didn't lock him in the dungeon but instead the armory which they have NEVER put someone in before. Is there some on screen rationale for them putting him in the armory instead of the dungeon? Other than weapons grade stupid writing?  Although that doesn't explain why he has that shoulder injury..so I guess probably not. Just nonsensical writing

1) I'm really struggling to buy this.  B-L has been markedly improved since Dabb.  I think he's tweaking (not enough this episode... but noticble).  If you have a link?....

2) See my "deal with the demon" for Ketch theory.

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So here's a thought. Could Ketch be a demon who can shift like Asmodeus which explains why he would be helping him at all. Like maybe he did die, went to Hell, was converted to a Prince of Hell so he can shift willy nilly  and he just made up the Rowena spell story.

I think the only thing more ridiculous than having Ketch use Rowena's magic spell to bring himself back would be for them to have Ketch just say that he used Rowena's magic spell as a ploy to hide the fact that he's a demon.  Not criticizing your thought process, Catrox, just shaking my head at the rabbit holes these writers jump into trying to come up with their storylines.  How about we just don't bring Ketch back at all, instead?  There's a thought.

[catrox14]

Just now, MysteryGuest said:

I think the only thing more ridiculous than having Ketch use Rowena's magic spell to bring himself back would be for them to have Ketch just say that he used Rowena's magic spell as a ploy to hide the fact that he's a demon.  Not criticizing your thought process, Catrox, just shaking my head at the rabbit holes these writers jump into trying to come up with their storylines.  How about we just don't bring Ketch back at all, instead?  There's a thought.

Oh well I already shot a hole in my own theory with his injured arm so that's probably not what happened. 

I'd just rather the boys not be fucking idiots for every ridiulous Buck Lemming crapfest script. Like I'd rather it be that kind of absurdity than the boys fail to do Hunters 101.

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

nd I'm sorry, I just can't with the stupidity of Castiel yet again. And I. Just. Can't. with Lucifer any more, at all, ever. Gah. I am still hoping this whole episode was some kind of super-meta prank on the fandom and we can just write it off to a Dabb/BuckLemming fever dream.

I just don't understand Cas since he's been back. There is something about the way 'Cas' (and I'm putting it that way because I'm still holding out that he might be not altogether together Cas) answers everything. It's like he's THINKING about what he has to say before he says it. It's not natural to Cas' speech patterns even back in s4. It's different.

I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying this is what I'm seeing in Cas and that it seems like it's someone acting like Cas, someone having to remember or search for the answers in memory.   I mean it's close enough for Dean to believe it's Cas but there is just something peculiar. Just MHO, YMMV and I'm probably wrong. But holding it in my back pocket.

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Are you suggesting that the resurrection spell works on cremains, reconstitutes them back into a whole body that could dig itself out of a grave?  That seems absurd even for this show LOL.

Yes, that's my understanding of the spell--it resurrects someone after they die, not just puts their souls back, but "fixes" their bodies too. It's not the first time someone has been resurrected after their bodies have been burned, so ... .

I'm not saying it's not absurd, but it's magic so anything goes with that sort of thing, IMO.

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, SueB said:

1) I'm really struggling to buy this.  B-L has been markedly improved since Dabb.  I think he's tweaking (not enough this episode... but noticble).  If you have a link?....

2) See my "deal with the demon" for Ketch theory.

I didn't state it AS FACT. Feel free to salt it all you like. It's scuttlebutt I've seen on Reddit and Twitter and I could never find the source of the scuttlebutt.

If J2 have any influence on BL scripts considering how protective they are of their characters, I would think they would want them to not look like imbeciles when they are supposed to be the best hunters in the world. JMHO. YMMV. Salt to taste.

[Pondlass1]

Ratings for the show have crashed as expected - 0.3.  I get irritated with the 'squee' bunch on twitter - their asinine tweets are the only ones re-tweeted by cast members such as MP.  

[DittyDotDot]

21 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'm really struggling to buy this.  B-L has been markedly improved since Dabb.  I think he's tweaking (not enough this episode... but noticble).  If you have a link?....

Yeah, I can't really imagine that they would have that much control over their scripts as it is, but it's clear that their scripts have improved under Dabb...even though an improvement still doesn't make them good.

[gonzosgirrl]

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but I am just so pissed off with the show at the moment. It's Supernatural, a show that by definition requires us to suspend belief at times, to believe in the unbelievable, and I am more than willing to do that. But in order to accept the wildly implausible (if not impossible) things that happen, there have to be some things that we can count on to be true. Salted and burned bodies don't come back as spirits, humans shot through the head are dead and stay dead, when we see an angel's burnt up wings? Gone, done. And if they absolutely have to break faith with canon, then do it sparingly and make it count. Don't throw away the awesome idea of resurrection on a B character.

Bringing Ketch back was a step too far for me. I just felt insulted and angry, not shocked or pleasantly surprised.

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Yes, that's my understanding of the spell--it resurrects someone after they die, not just puts their souls back, but "fixes" their bodies too. It's not the first time someone has been resurrected after their bodies have been burned, so ... .

I'm not saying it's not absurd, but it's magic so anything goes with that sort of thing, IMO.

Who else was resurrected and reconstituted other than Cas and that was done by God himself?

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying this is what I'm seeing in Cas and that it seems like it's someone acting like Cas, someone having to remember or search for the answers in memory.   I mean it's close enough for Dean to believe it's Cas but there is just something peculiar. Just MHO, YMMV and I'm probably wrong. But holding it in my back pocket.

I've wondered about this myself, so you're not the only one noticing the difference.  We have zero knowledge about the entity from The Empty, so it's difficult to say whether he would have even wanted to take Cas' place.  All he seemed interested in doing was going back to sleep. Was he an angel or a demon himself?  I'm not sure what their plan is for The Empty, so I don't have a clue if we're going to get more information, or not.  But I do think there's something not quite right about Cas.  It may be as simple as him being without his powers, or it could be more.  I guess we'll find out.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Who else was resurrected and reconstituted other than Cas and that was done by God himself?

Adam.

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Who else was resurrected and reconstituted other than Cas and that was done by God himself?

Presumably, Rowena will be brought back from her crispy critter state with this magic spell.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Ratings for the show have crashed as expected - 0.3.  I get irritated with the 'squee' bunch on twitter - their asinine tweets are the only ones re-tweeted by cast members such as MP.  

They did get a .5 in the 25-50 demo but not the 18-49.  But it doesn't matter because I guess they aren't being counted this week because of Thanksgiving. 

[Pondlass1]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

B-L has been markedly improved since Dabb

They have?  This episode was childish in the extreme.  NepDuo go for shock value - never mind if it makes any bloody sense.  And I'm 100% certain the two of them have never watched a single episode other than their own juvenile drivel. 

I'm not so frustrated by the absurdity of Ketch resurrection as the absurdity of the whole fucking episode.  The one silver lining - Dean was the smart one and got in some cool punches.  Maybe these two nincompoops like Dean?  So there's that. 

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Ratings for the show have crashed as expected - 0.3.

Maybe we can all just pretend it never happened then? Pretty please?

14 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

 I get irritated with the 'squee' bunch on twitter - their asinine tweets are the only ones re-tweeted by cast members such as MP.  

I don't expect them to acknowledge or respond to the less-than-squeeing people, but damn, I hope that at least somebody is paying attention to them.

LOL, just saw this tweet:

 

Poor Sam. First being soulless is no worse than losing your appendix, and now this.

Edited November 24, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Adam.

True. I forgot about Adam, like I generally do. Regardless, that was God level power from the angels working together to get him out of the grave right?

Of course I've bitched about magic being so powerful in this show that it could remove a curse from God aka the Mark of Cain, so sure, why not...have magic rebuild a human from literal ash.  So stupid. 

[Wayward Son]

17 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Ratings for the show have crashed as expected - 0.3.  I get irritated with the 'squee' bunch on twitter - their asinine tweets are the only ones re-tweeted by cast members such as MP.  

I think describing it as a crash is a bit much. The ratings are down this week due to it being Thanksgiving. It’s the same as how the flash fell from its normal 0.9 - 1.0 when it aired on Halloween night. This is also supported by the fact Neilson themselves have stated last nights ratings wont count for end of season statistics etc. 

15 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I've wondered about this myself, so you're not the only one noticing the difference.  We have zero knowledge about the entity from The Empty, so it's difficult to say whether he would have even wanted to take Cas' place.  All he seemed interested in doing was going back to sleep. Was he an angel or a demon himself?  I'm not sure what their plan is for The Empty, so I don't have a clue if we're going to get more information, or not.  But I do think there's something not quite right about Cas.  It may be as simple as him being without his powers, or it could be more.  I guess we'll find out.

The only remotely plausible explanation for the Empty entity to pose as Cas is that he has come for Jack. It would make sense to me if he decided to come and eliminate the being that woke Castiel up in order to ensure its sleep is never disturbed again.

 

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Adam.

Wasn’t Adam resurrected by Michael and the angels rather than Guck?

[Pondlass1]

Ratings are what makes them sit up and pay notice.  If it was a regular Thursday and numbers plummeted especially in the second half hour - then that's a good indication to the Big Wigs the episode was rubbish.  But they've got the Thanksgiving excuse.  Damn!!

Also - I don't know what's going on with Misha but I want to slap Cas these days.  He's not phoning it in.... but he's not in his game.

[Aeryn13]

So, this was one of those odd episodes for me where the ep wasn`t bad for Dean but the story was such a convoluted, nonsensical mess, it even affected my viewing experience. And I have hardly cared about the episodic plots or the overall construct for years. But this was such a noticeable mess, I couldn`t ignore it. 

Why did they bring Ketch back? I felt the character`s story was told. I liked the actor fine but this feels weirdly tacked on, no matter where they go with it. And the explanation with Rowena`s spell?? Give me a break. 

Asmodeus is just annoying to me, nothing else. 

Lucifer brought some good snark. I don`t care for the character but at least he amused me overall. 

Michael wants world domination just cause. Does he have a freaking backstory? Like, is Chuck also his God? What happened there? I`m sure more is to come with the character but this should have been the episode where he was gonna be a bit more than super one-dimensionally evil. Even Blofeld had a cat for godsakes. 

Cas and Lucifer being convolutedly stupid together to get caught, one ep after Cas got back. Is this a new record? This is ludicrous for the character. 

I did like Dean being smart and figuring things out. The fight with the demons? angels? I think demons, it`s so silly you can no longer really tell (or care) was so-so. Ketch saving them was sigh-worthy.

Now I would have pegged this as a Bucklemming script anytime because while other writers might be just as crappy, they have a particular style where you can just tell how they think they are awesome and epic and procure awe-inspiring, surprising twists and turns. Other people see a hot mess but they bask in their own perceived gloriousness. It basically drips off the screen. And it`s cringeworthy. 

On the positive side, I wasn`t enraged by the episode. Just in a continuing state of "WTF". 

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

They have?  This episode was childish in the extreme.  NepDuo go for shock value - never mind if it makes any bloody sense.  And I'm 100% certain the two of them have never watched a single episode other than their own juvenile drivel. 

Yes, I think there has been a vast improvement overall to their writing since Dabb took over. The episode itself wasn't quite as jam-packed as some of them have been in the past. And, I don't think it was actually all that nonsensical in comparison to some of their previous ones, even if I did find it rather stupid. 

Just now, catrox14 said:

True. I forgot about Adam, like I generally do. Regardless, that was God level power from the angels working together to get him out of the grave right?

Well, it was angels, but I don't know that it was God-level power. To me, it's all magic. The power is contained within the spell, in this case, so you didn't need the power of angels to get it done.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Presumably, Rowena will be brought back from her crispy critter state with this magic spell.

That seems to be where this is headed and they even had the witch dolls to rebuild Alicia so why not use that to rebuild Rowena. Because IMO they wanted Ketch back. It's childish writing. I mean a lot of what Dabb does his childish writing.

It's gross because they tortured and brainwashed Mary and she had her vengeance by shooting him in the head, which was the  best thing the show did for Mary in a season of destroying her and now they fuck that up too. Great. Look how they treated Charlie before her death and now Mary doesn't get to keep that one damn victory? What the fuck BLemming??

3 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Also - I don't know what's going on with Misha but I want to slap Cas these days.  He's not phoning it in.... but he's not in his game.

IMO, he's playing Cas this way for a reason that will find out later.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But in order to accept the wildly implausible (if not impossible) things that happen, there have to be some things that we can count on to be true. Salted and burned bodies don't come back as spirits, humans shot through the head are dead and stay dead, when we see an angel's burnt up wings? Gone, done. And if they absolutely have to break faith with canon, then do it sparingly and make it count. Don't throw away the awesome idea of resurrection on a B character.

They seem to be borrowing from Vampire Diaries with the "witches did it" concept where everything that was previously said to be an impossible scenario could still happen due to witches and spells. Only on that show it was ingrained in the mythology from the start because magic was the cause of every supernatural thing ever so I could swallow it easier. 

On Supernatural, sure, we got introduced to the "resurrection spell in the leg" to explain Rowena`s return back in Season 11. And I found THAT bloody stupid already. To double down on it just to bring back Ketch? I hope the extreme silliness was worth it, show. 

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

Michael wants world domination just cause. Does he have a freaking backstory? Like, is Chuck also his God? What happened there? I`m sure more is to come with the character but this should have been the episode where he was gonna be a bit more than super one-dimensionally evil. Even Blofeld had a cat for godsakes. 

Yeah, I'm rather disappointed in Micheal so far, but I wasn't ever impressed with him before either. I was wondering if Micheal's motivation might be just that he can't stand knowing that there is a universe out there where he didn't win and so he set out to fix that, but instead they went with the typical just wanting MORE world domination. Sigh.

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Now I would have pegged this as a Bucklemming script anytime because while other writers might be just as crappy, they have a particular style where you can just tell how they think they are awesome and epic and procure awe-inspiring, surprising twists and turns. Other people see a hot mess but they bask in their own perceived gloriousness. It basically drips off the screen. And it`s cringeworthy. 

Yeah, I tend to be able to spot their episodes by the patting themselves on the back for bullshit philosophizing. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Yeah, I'm rather disappointed in Micheal so far, but I wasn't ever impressed with him before either. 

I liked him in the episode where he possessed young John in the time travel scenario. IMO the character could have had real potential after that intro, with a bit more fleshing out and all. This Michael? At first I got Ramsey Bolton vibes with Lucifer and the cage torturing and then Thug Nr.7 wanting world domination. The Leviathans had more motivation than this and I found them to be a huge letdown.    

[Katy M]

59 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

It's looking like both Sam and Dean will get another opportunity to go to Hell on a rescue mission for Cas and Lucifer.  Can't wait for that...not.

Are they actually in Hell, or are they in Crowley's hell-sylum.  Since I think it was an abandoned asylum, that Crowley has been running Hell out of, I tried to make a cool conglomeration of Hell and asylum. I'm sure I failed miserably.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yes, I think there has been a vast improvement overall to their writing since Dabb took over. The episode itself wasn't quite as jam-packed as some of them have been in the past. And, I don't think it was actually all that nonsensical in comparison to some of their previous ones, even if I did find it rather stupid. 

I could not disagree more.

IMO it's gotten worse under Dabb's OFFICIAL tutelage (which I think unofficially he started well before mid season of s11). They consistently dumb down Sam and/or Dean and Cas in way or another for plot reasons. Consistenly. I won't belabor those points here but maybe I will in the all seasons thread later.

In this episode, they dumbed down Sam and Dean hunter techniques to get Ketch resurrected. Like they could have at LEAST had them salt and burn the body that had a bullet in it's head, so that they really don't have culpability in him being back.

They did not put him in the dungeon and lock him in it. That was ridiculous. Why would they lock him in the ARMORY FFS where  I presume there are weapons? And apparently now cavity searches are a thing?

They had Dean and Sam walk into a darkened bar, not even try to turn on the lights that I saw all so they could be jumped by 3 demons who all apparently fight with angel blades now...vs using their own demon powers. 

I am surprised though that they allowed Dean to ferret out that Ketch was always Ketch but I suspect that is just so later we find out that Dean couldn't ferret out that Cas isn't really Cas.

[MysteryGuest]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Are they actually in Hell, or are they in Crowley's hell-sylum.  Since I think it was an abandoned asylum, that Crowley has been running Hell out of, I tried to make a cool conglomeration of Hell and asylum. I'm sure I failed miserably.

Hell-sylum...LOL.  Honestly, I had forgotten about Crowley's lair.  It does seem odd to me though that the King of Hell actually hangs out on earth with all of his minions.  What's the point of having a Hell if you're never actually there?

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO it's gotten worse under Dabb's OFFICIAL tutelage (which I think unofficially he started well before mid season of s11). They consistently dumb down Sam and/or Dean and Cas in way or another for plot reasons. Consistenly. I won't belabor those points here but maybe I will in the all seasons thread later.

I'm not suggesting they don't dumb everything down, but I don't think it was any worse than they've ever done before and there are other things I think that have improved since Dabb took over.

Look, I'm not saying the episode wasn't shit, I'm just saying that it was slightly less shitty than previous episodes they've written.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Hell-sylum...LOL.  Honestly, I had forgotten about Crowley's lair.  It does seem odd to me though that the King of Hell actually hangs out on earth with all of his minions.  What's the point of having a Hell if you're never actually there?

I think this came up in the all seasons or maybe B v J thread but Hell is well hellacious. Crowley didn't really want to hang out in Hell in my opinion and he made it a place for there to be order as in the demons would do his bidding to get to Hell-Sylum

[catrox14]

53 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The only remotely plausible explanation for the Empty entity to pose as Cas is that he has come for Jack. It would make sense to me if he decided to come and eliminate the being that woke Castiel up in order to ensure its sleep is never disturbed agai

I can buy this. That he put Cas on lockdown of some kind and just took his memories and came to earth.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

It's just the idea that they leave all of these dead bodies just lying around that bothers me.  Maybe I'm forgetting things, but I don't remember that being something they do.  They normally clean up the scene of whatever hunt they've been on.  But when someone dies in the Bunker, they just put the body out with the trash?  I just find it difficult to believe, and to me, it does make Sam and Dean look sloppy, which I don't think they are at all.  The Bunker is warded, but it's not invisible.  So anyone out wandering in the local woods could stumble on the bodies and alert the police.  Why draw the unnecessary attention to yourself is my question?  Again, it's not earth-shattering, but it's the little details that are important.

I think it is important because the devil is in the details. If they get sloppy with disposing of the bodies eventually someone would figure it out. Sure Jody is in law enforcement but she's not the FBI. Never mind if Ketch wanted to turn all his follow up clean up around on the boys.  If they get lazy on cleaning up then bodies can be resurrected as with Ketch, or they become revenants, of vengeful spirits. And for two guys that are supposed to be guardians of the earth you'd think they'd be more careful.

To me it's just plotonium for some later stupid plot movement and I just can't respect that kind of writing.  Like seriously anyone could be Sam and Dean in Blemming episodes. They bring nothing special in general to Blemming scripts. They are just as much plot props as supporting characters. 

I think BLemming enjoys demeaning the boys in the scripts in whatever way. I think they think it's funny. Cas is a whole other level of WTFery right now.

And for me it all circles back to Lucifer's re emergence under Dabb. That is who Dabb is writing for IMO. I think that has been his goal all along. Everyone is tied to Lucifer either directly or indirectly for the plot. At this point, Lucifer is the main character since Dabb brought him back. 

Edited November 24, 2017 by catrox14

[Bergamot]

I agree with almost every criticism leveled at this episode, but there were one or two things that I liked, at least enough to want to watch those moments again.

Ketch apparently had gone to great lengths to support his story of being "Alexander": removing his tattoo, creating an elaborate and impressive paper trail, and so on. But looking back on it now, it is interesting to me to see how he was unable to resist defending his real self when he was criticized. When Sam said that Arthur was amoral and loyal to no one, Ketch objected, insisting that he was not amoral, that he was "loyal to a fault" and "an incredibly good company man". He talked about how "burdened" Arthur was, how being him was "not an easy job". I liked the way that we got to see how Ketch -- who, let's face it, is a complete sociopath -- views himself, and how his oversized ego (which I believe is also characteristic of a sociopath) caused him to almost give himself away. I thought it was kind of clever.

I also thought it was interesting how Sam dug deep into the research in order to figure out the truth about Ketch, whereas Dean relied on his instincts. Very characteristic of both of them. I was struck by the intensity of Dean's reaction to Ketch asking how Mary was, but I didn't realize what it meant. I thought that Dean was just upset by Ketch having the gall to talk about his mother, so I didn't realize, as Dean did, the significance of Ketch asking that question. I didn't notice, as Dean did, the look in Ketch's eyes, that moment of naked emotion coming from Arthur's obsession with Mary.

One thing that I loved, and probably my favorite part of the episode, is that Dean is finally completely convinced of Ketch's identity after seeing him fight. "I've seen your moves," he tells him. "We've gone toe to toe." The idea that Dean can identify a person with such certainty on the basis of having fought with them, the idea that he is so tuned in, so honed in on someone because of that -- well, it is kind of exciting to me. It's just so ..... visceral.

I also have to say that I liked the way Sam immediately moved away from Ketch to stand next to Dean, as soon as Dean announced he was sure about him. I like that in this case he wisely didn't argue or wait for an explanation, but just trusted Dean's instincts.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Just another random thought...why did Rowena give Ketch the "real" resurrection spell?  After all, it's not like he could test it in advance, or, if he did and it didn't work, he could do anything about it.  It's not like she always kept her promises--remember her trying to cheat Lucifer/Vince out of his eternal youth (or whatever) spell that made him disintegrate instead?  

I will give them all the props if that turns out to be the case. That would be amazing, but I'm not convinced they are going to do that with Ketch. 

6 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

was struck by the intensity of Dean's reaction to Ketch asking how Mary was, but I didn't realize what it meant.

I think that is what really solidified for Dean he was still Ketch, he noticed it.