S13.E06: Tombstone

[gonzosgirrl]

From Hawaii con panel, the tunnel scene was mostly improv:

 

[SueB]

I'll do a brief summary of thoughts by category.  I t helps me to cover the topics.  Real the TL:DR at the bottom for the bottom line.

Plot: Once again, I have to say the MOTW episode is eclipsed by the season-long arcs.  Now it was an entertaining enough MOTW case, but it was how it reflected the rest of the season that captured my attention. Dean gets his win at LAST.  And boy did we need that hug.  (see message) In terms of the plot parallels, we're obviouslyl hitting the "monster choses to be a monster" theme with the shapeshifter's choices and Jack's fears.  I thought "Sarg" and the undertaker were well-drawn characters.  I loved Dean getting to declare Team Free Will 2.0.  But from my perspective, I liked the expansion of the mythology on ghouls to include they make a series of tunnels under the ground to get to the corpses.  I guess they need to be careful where they do that so the ground doesn't cave.  And I'm surprised he let the undertaker still put in the formaldahyde -- that's gotta taste icky.  I mean, I KNOW he was keeping his monster-status a secret but.. bleech.  I thought the 'shoot-out' outside the bank was a little too cute and required the boys to be a much poorer aim than they really are.  But the point (IMO) was to setup the guard dying.

Characters:

Sam: He seems subdued.  Like he's waiting for the other shoe to drop. I'm glad he engaged Dean on finally getting a win,, but Sam seemed nervous the whole time IMO.  Like getting Cas back was too good to be true.  I think he might circle round to that again.

Dean: So VERY ADORABLE in his Cowboy geek-out.  Everytime I see him have one of these little boys moments it's both joyful and sad. Joyful because he's otherwise such an angsty character and it's a relief to see him so happy, but sad because the reason these things bring out his inner child is that he never got to BE a child.  Ouch.  I felt a kindred spirit with Dean's encyclopedic knowlede of all things 'cowboy'.  Note: on the SPNHon (Conolulu) video of Misha, Misha indicated Jensen was pretty stoked to put on the cowboy gear --- so there's a little character/actor bleed there.  He also said the script only said 'bowlegged walk' which means it was all the director and editors for that awesome sequence.  Back to Dean - I LOVE LOVE how Jack sees Dean as the real authority figure that he tries to please.  It's Dean he runs to wake up, it's Dean he wants to make happy, and it's Dean who he demands the truth from.  I love that they have formed that relationship.  I'm also thrilled that Dean is seeing Jack earned his humanity.  Jack is truly horrified and eaten up by the security cop's death.  "Did he have a family?!" might have been words Dean would have spoken.  Jack seems to have developed some of Dean's sense of right/wrong and Dean is responding to that.  He really has changed a bit towards Jack.  Also, it was hard to see him send Sam & Cas home with Jack but it was a practicle decision.  Loved that he made sure Sarg closed the books on the bank guard's death.

Cas: "I'm your Huckleberry." Why yes, yes you are.  Misha was in fine form with his dead-panned lines all episode.  And he did such a great job of selliing true caring for Jack.  That boy means a lot to Cas.  And not just a means to an end. I'm a little freaked Cas has no healing powers.  I thought he was coming back stronger.  This is not stronger.  But he's still full-angel because he doesn't sleep.  

Jack: My precious cinnamon role.  Alexander Calvert is AMAZING.  He conveys his feelings so transparently and layered.  This is a real find for the show IMO.  From his puppy-happy "I moved the pencil!" and "I know what Zombies are now!", to his heart-rending "I will hurt you all", he's got range.  And it's perfect.  I KNEW as soon as Sam and Cas were trying to talk to Jack, in the car, that Jack was ready to explode. He doesn't want platitudes, he wants facts.  And Sam is afraid of him.  He knows that.  That's a horrible feeling.  And not Sam's fault but it's leaking out of Sam's skin.

Bottom Line for the TL:DR; Again this was an excellent episode.  Such character work!  Such eye candy!  Such comedy.  And Cas is back, so all else is less imporant -- because we got our Cas back (and he seems de-powered but still himself). I am TOTALLY on-board with Team Free Will 2.0

Edited November 20, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

http://tippitv.tumblr.com/post/167679981547/sam-and-dean-after-getting-flung-into-walls

Quote

tippitv

November 19th 2017, 5:28:23 pm · 2 hours ago

Sam and Dean after getting flung into walls, doors, concrete, cars, trees: 

slight aches, need aspirin and booze, sleep it off

Random guard after getting flung into a post: 

[catrox14]

Dean, you are the most adorkable bean in the world. I love him so much. And yes Jensen was loving this but I only see Dean here and in the cowboy walk. This is great fucking Ackting. DEAN is so happy. 

justjensenanddean reblogged justjensenanddean

November 19th 2017, 4:08:24 pm · 3 hours ago

My comment: OMG, I didn't realize he talked to the stuffed bison before he nose booped him YOU DORK LOLOLOL:

 

source: JustJensenandDean

This is me at Dean/Jensen in this episode and all season really.

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by catrox14

[takalotti]

I’m not sure Sam's wariness is about Cas (either not being convinced Cas is really Cas, or waiting for the other shoe to drop).

I'm wondering if it’s more of a "Look, it’s nice that Cas is back and that IS a good thing. But remember Mom? How are you this happy when Mom is still trapped?"

But he didn’t get into it because he still loves Dean and doesn’t want to spoil his happy.

Edited November 20, 2017 by takalotti

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean, you are the most adorkable bean in the world. I love him so much. And yes Jensen was loving this but I only see Dean here and in the cowboy walk. This is great fucking Ackting. DEAN is so happy. 

justjensenanddean reblogged justjensenanddean

November 19th 2017, 4:08:24 pm · 3 hours ago

My comment: OMG, I didn't realize he talked to the stuffed bison before he nose booped him YOU DORK LOLOLOL:

 

source: JustJensenandDean

This is me at Dean/Jensen in this episode and all season really.

 

Love this - every frame of it.

[Bergamot]

On the whole, the writing for Jack as a character hasn't worked for me. But I have to say that when he was so proud of being able to move the pencil, and so gleeful that he knew what zombies are, for maybe the first time I found him charming and likable, without the overdone sad little puppy thing he had going on up to now.

I feel like the show fell back into that rut at the end though. Previously, Jack told his "therapist" that he didn't really feel bad when he accidentally hurt someone, even though he pretended to -- that actually most of the time he felt nothing. I thought they might be giving the character some interesting layers, that maybe he was something more unusual and complicated than just your average cute TV teenager with superpowers and an identity crisis. But it's almost as if this episode's writer did not see that episode, because there is no way Jack was feigning his emotions about what happened in this one. I wouldn't be surprised if that character revelation was never referred to again; to me it feels like a missed opportunity.

Because it did not feel like we were seeing character growth; it's more like the show is so afraid of doing anything that might make Jack appear anything other than a cute and lovable woobie, that it was erased. By way of contrast, in one of Castiel's earliest episodes, he threatened to throw Dean back into Hell if Dean did not show him more respect. It took a long time for them to become friends, and I think the development of that friendship and of Castiel's character in his first season was portrayed in a very convincing way.

Maybe this is why the father/son insta-bonding connection between Jack and Cas didn't really do anything for me. We never had to see them come to know each other or struggle to understand the other, and gradually form a relationship -- they were just automatically connected to each other from when Jack was still in the womb. As viewers we were never given the opportunity to become invested. I suspect that any anxiety Cas feels over finding Jack may feel flat for me for the same reason.

It is also related to why I find Jack's relationship with Dean to be in some ways the most interesting one.  On Jack's side you have seen him emulating Dean and trying to please him, while on Dean's side you have seen him gradually move from anger and dislike to treating him as a hunter "intern" to a grudging respect. The show didn't devote many episodes to this, but I think the way things progressed was believable and in character for Dean. I liked how intently Dean watched the reunion between Jack and Cas in this episode; I think seeing this was important for Dean. It reminded me of Dean seeing Benny save Cas in Purgatory. For Dean it does matter what you do and not just what you are, but it particularly matters what you do in relation to those he loves.

Anyway, although I have not kept up with spoilers, it appears that the show is moving on to the next phase in the education of Jack, so we shall see what they come up with for him.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 hours ago, Bergamot said:

<snip>

It is also related to why I find Jack's relationship with Dean to be in some ways the most interesting one.  On Jack's side you have seen him emulating Dean and trying to please him, while on Dean's side you have seen him gradually move from anger and dislike to treating him as a hunter "intern" to a grudging respect. The show didn't devote many episodes to this, but I think the way things progressed was believable and in character for Dean. I liked how intently Dean watched the reunion between Jack and Cas in this episode; I think seeing this was important for Dean. It reminded me of Dean seeing Benny save Cas in Purgatory. For Dean it does matter what you do and not just what you are, but it particularly matters what you do in relation to those he loves.

 

I love this. I never thought of the Dean/Benny/Cas correlation to Dean/Jack/Cas - interesting and thought-provoking observation!

I wish these writers were forced to watch all episodes of the show, from the beginning and each week as long as they are on staff. I mean the finished product, what 'we' see. SO much could be improved with continuity and canon-compliance. Even in just the few episodes with Jack, both fetus!Jack and teenage!Jack, they are sending mixed signals and outright contradictions in character and behavior. So frustrating! Like, Jack is powerful enough to awaken an angel in the Empty - something they declare has never happened in millenia, yet they don't even attempt to have him revive a newly-dead human. He raised Cas because he was so emotional after hearing Dean blame him for his death. His emotions were running at least as high with the guilt of killing this human - and they don't even try, because they need him to angst and run away. Do better, show.

[Katy M]

22 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I love this. I never thought of the Dean/Benny/Cas correlation to Dean/Jack/Cas - interesting and thought-provoking observation!

I wish these writers were forced to watch all episodes of the show, from the beginning and each week as long as they are on staff. I mean the finished product, what 'we' see. SO much could be improved with continuity and canon-compliance. Even in just the few episodes with Jack, both fetus!Jack and teenage!Jack, they are sending mixed signals and outright contradictions in character and behavior. So frustrating! Like, Jack is powerful enough to awaken an angel in the Empty - something they declare has never happened in millenia, yet they don't even attempt to have him revive a newly-dead human. He raised Cas because he was so emotional after hearing Dean blame him for his death. His emotions were running at least as high with the guilt of killing this human - and they don't even try, because they need him to angst and run away. Do better, show.

Or at the very least have someone who has seen all the episodes and they can have a canon/out of character buzzer that they beep during the table reads, or whatever.

[catrox14]

11 hours ago, Bergamot said:

It is also related to why I find Jack's relationship with Dean to be in some ways the most interesting one.  On Jack's side you have seen him emulating Dean and trying to please him, while on Dean's side you have seen him gradually move from anger and dislike to treating him as a hunter "intern" to a grudging respect. The show didn't devote many episodes to this, but I think the way things progressed was believable and in character for Dean. I liked how intently Dean watched the reunion between Jack and Cas in this episode; I think seeing this was important for Dean. It reminded me of Dean seeing Benny save Cas in Purgatory. For Dean it does matter what you do and not just what you are, but it particularly matters what you do in relation to those he loves.

This is a really interesting perspective that I hadn't considered. Hmmm. That makes Dean softening his position on Jack a lot more understandable than just 'Cas is alive so I'm happy so I won't bother to remember that you might be evil.' That fits and is in character with Dean. I like that.

I do wonder though when that other shoe is going to drop. I don't think Cas has powers anymore. Maybe that's the price of the EmpStiel spitting him back out. That he goes back powerless and maybe hasn't figured it out yet.

[gonzosgirrl]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is a really interesting perspective that I hadn't considered. Hmmm. That makes Dean softening his position on Jack a lot more understandable than just 'Cas is alive so I'm happy so I won't bother to remember that you might be evil.' That fits and is in character with Dean. I like that.

I do wonder though when that other shoe is going to drop. I don't think Cas has powers anymore. Maybe that's the price of the EmpStiel spitting him back out. That he goes back powerless and maybe hasn't figured it out yet.

Killing with an angel blade seems to empty them of grace, (no idea if it destroys the grace completely or if it just dissipates into the atmosphere?) So it would make sense that any power tied to grace would be gone with his death, and since it seems Jack can't heal (yet) and only woke Cas up, him being powerless would make sense. However it would have also made sense to maybe check what he was or wasn't capable of before they went on a hunt? Oh, Show.

[catrox14]

52 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Or at the very least have someone who has seen all the episodes and they can have a canon/out of character buzzer that they beep during the table reads, or whatever.

Even if they want to push the character into a different place, or give or deny the character what he or she wants or needs, then they could at least explain to some extent why the character is doing something a bit out of whack with what's come before. I mean characters do have to be dynamic, they can't remain static but it helps if they make the rationale for those changes more organic to the character themselves.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Killing with an angel blade seems to empty them of grace, (no idea if it destroys the grace completely or if it just dissipates into the atmosphere?) So it would make sense that any power tied to grace would be gone with his death, and since it seems Jack can't heal (yet) and only woke Cas up, him being powerless would make sense. However it would have also made sense to maybe check what he was or wasn't capable of before they went on a hunt? Oh, Show.

I don't think he's without his grace.  But I only have one piece of evidence for this.  Cas told Jack he doesn't sleep.  It seems to me that if he didn't have any grace, he's been back long enough that he would have needed to sleep.  He was somewhere around during the whole Thanatology episode and then all day and all night, and all day again, and he never slept.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Killing with an angel blade seems to empty them of grace, (no idea if it destroys the grace completely or if it just dissipates into the atmosphere?) So it would make sense that any power tied to grace would be gone with his death, and since it seems Jack can't heal (yet) and only woke Cas up, him being powerless would make sense. However it would have also made sense to maybe check what he was or wasn't capable of before they went on a hunt? Oh, Show.

If Cas is powerless, I think this might be setting up Dean to possibly rely on Cas to heal Sam and then finds out he's not powered up anymore. Would that change Dean's attitude towards Cas? Will it lead to a quest to find Cas' grace if it can be restored?

Or is this heading towards Cas dying because he doesn't have his powers, and Dean will end up feeling responsible because he didn't/couldn't protect Cas not realizing he doesn't have his powers.

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think he's without his grace.  But I only have one piece of evidence for this.  Cas told Jack he doesn't sleep.  It seems to me that if he didn't have any grace, he's been back long enough that he would have needed to sleep.  He was somewhere around during the whole Thanatology episode and then all day and all night, and all day again, and he never slept.

Maybe his not sleeping is a function of Jack waking him up, like he's permanently awake now but powerless.

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe his not sleeping is a function of Jack waking him up, like he's permanently awake now but powerless.

That doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, but then again, lots of stuff on this show doesn't make sense to me.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

That doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, but then again, lots of stuff on this show doesn't make sense to me.

It makes as much sense as Jack being more super-powered than his sire, but not being able to heal the guard. Or Donatello's soullessness being NBD. Whatever else happened, Cas's grace exploded out of him when Lucifer stabbed him. They need some kind of explanation of how it's suddenly back if Jack can't heal.

[SueB]

Cas obviously didn't know he was powerless because he tried to heal the guard.  And Cas definitely knows when he is without Grace.

So, the root-cause of Cas being power-less is not yet clear. 

Other times he was powerless or powerlimited:

- Powerlimited: Heaven restricted him in S4 and he couldn't heal Dean after Alastair
- Powerlimited: He was 'cut-off' from Heaven in S5 and couldn't heal Bobby
- He had to 'recharge' after going to the past to chase Anna
- He ended up in a hospital in pain in S5 after carving the Angel-B-Gon sigil into his chest and getting zapped to an oil rig.  He stayed pretty powerless til God rebuilt him as a Seraph after Swan Song
- He was most powerful in S6 but still needed to 'recharge' after using Bobby's soul power to get to the past to pull back the boys from Fronteirland
- He went full-on human when he lost his grace
- He needed to recharge his batteries when he was on borrowed grace AND the overall supply dwindled til he got 'new grace'
- He was wingless but powered Cas in S10 after he got his own grace back - he could heal
- The implicationin "Lily Sunder' was that a big expenditure of energy when he heal evil!Angel required his 'batteries to recharge' even tho it was his own grace

So... I think he:
1) didn't know he wasn't powered - didn't feel the need to say he had to 'recharge'
2) still has his own angel grace
3) likely is blocked or neutered somehow

This is either as a function of his rescurrection or his relationship with heaven.  Seems like the former vice the later.

But he's not human. IMO His species is still angel and his power source (grace) is still his own (just really limited).

ETA: And Dean obviously knows he's powerless because otherwise the guard would not be dead.  That was the whole motivation of sending Jack to the bunker -- they would be looking for the kid that killed the guard.  

Edited November 20, 2017 by SueB

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I love this. I never thought of the Dean/Benny/Cas correlation to Dean/Jack/Cas - interesting and thought-provoking observation!

I wish these writers were forced to watch all episodes of the show, from the beginning and each week as long as they are on staff. I mean the finished product, what 'we' see. SO much could be improved with continuity and canon-compliance. Even in just the few episodes with Jack, both fetus!Jack and teenage!Jack, they are sending mixed signals and outright contradictions in character and behavior. So frustrating! Like, Jack is powerful enough to awaken an angel in the Empty - something they declare has never happened in millenia, yet they don't even attempt to have him revive a newly-dead human. He raised Cas because he was so emotional after hearing Dean blame him for his death. His emotions were running at least as high with the guilt of killing this human - and they don't even try, because they need him to angst and run away. Do better, show.

Taking my reply to the writers thread.

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, but then again, lots of stuff on this show doesn't make sense to me.

I'm thinking it might be something like  Jack Harkness from Doctor Who and Torchwood. He was resurrected by the TARDIS energy accidentally by Rose which rendered him essentially immortal. He couldn't stay dead. (Hey he could be Winchester!) . 

With Jack here, he begged for Castiel to be alive again and his powers resurrected him from the place that NOTHING ever comes back from.

Maybe Castiel is immortal now without having powers. Jack Harkness 2.0? 

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm thinking it might be something like  Jack Harkness from Doctor Who and Torchwood. He was resurrected by the TARDIS energy accidentally by Rose which rendered him essentially immortal. He couldn't stay dead. (Hey he could be Winchester!) . 

With Jack here, he begged for Castiel to be alive again and his powers resurrected him from the place that NOTHING ever comes back from.

Maybe Castiel is immortal now without having powers. Jack Harkness 2.0? 

I think I could actually handle that.  Most of my problem with Cas is that he makes life too easy.  If he didn't have any powers, well, that would be great.  Pretty much the only thing I lked about Season 9 was human Cas, but then they ruined it.  Which makes me wonder, if this theory is true, would they ruin it by having him take Jack's grace and being super strong Cas?

And, how would this immortality work?  He wouldn't sleep, eat (because I think if he were hungry he would have commented on it by now) or grow older.  Would he have self-healing powers, as in bullets and stuff wouldn't kill him?

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think I could actually handle that.  Most of my problem with Cas is that he makes life too easy.  If he didn't have any powers, well, that would be great.  Pretty much the only thing I lked about Season 9 was human Cas, but then they ruined it.  Which makes me wonder, if this theory is true, would they ruin it by having him take Jack's grace and being super strong Cas?

And, how would this immortality work?  He wouldn't sleep, eat (because I think if he were hungry he would have commented on it by now) or grow older.  Would he have self-healing powers, as in bullets and stuff wouldn't kill him?

Jack Harkness didn't sleep either.  He would rest his eyes but he didn't really have to sleep. Jack Harkness was healed from his wounds because the TARDIS energy would reset him. So he just couldn't stay dead. I would not be a bit surprised to find out that Jack's resurrection powers do something similar with Cas.

I'm actually putting my money on this being the case. That's my official prediction!

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't think we can state with certainty that Cas 'knows' he is with or without grace. When Metatron took his grace through a small slit in his throat, it was gone (from his body). When Lucifer stabbed him, the grace literally exploded out of him, killing him. So we could assume that Jack's waking him also restored his grace, but that would give him God-like powers, since no other angel or archangel has been able to do that. Yet Cas couldn't heal/resurrect the guard, and I don't see why he'd be any less connected with Heaven than he was in 12x23 and he healed Dean's leg, so I think it's as reasonable to assume he doesn't have his grace as it is to assume he does.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

and I don't see why he'd be any less connected with Heaven than he was in 12x23 and he healed Dean's leg, so I think it's as reasonable to assume he doesn't have his grace as it is to assume he does.

I wouldn't put resurrecting someone on the same level as healing a busted up leg.   When was the last time he brought someone back?  I honestly don't remember him doing it since before the beginning of Season 9, but that doesn't mean he didn't.  I just don't remember.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I wouldn't put resurrecting someone on the same level as healing a busted up leg.   When was the last time he brought someone back?  I honestly don't remember him doing it since before the beginning of Season 9, but that doesn't mean he didn't.  I just don't remember.

Actually, I agree - I commented about that the night of the episode. I didn't think he was able to resurrect, but there were arguments made for and against. I think though, that two things have kind of blended together now though - my post was more about whether or not he has his grace (which would be necessary at the minimum for him to try resurrecting or healing anyone). I guess it remains to be seen what he did or didn't come back from the Empty with.

Edited November 20, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

Gadreel could resurrect Cas from dead. Cas resurrected Bobby in s5 when he was fully powered up. He has intermittently healed Dean and Sam of their wounds over the past 3 seasons. In s10 there was blue grace when Cas healed Dean but that is not particularly common IMO.

Then in 12.19, Cas healed Dean's  broken arm which I think was aided by Spawn power, and his bashed up leg in 12.23, which I think was also Spawn powered healing because the cut on Dean's face glowed golden which I've never seen happen before when Cas healed him. 

There was no glowing around the injury when Cas tried to heal the guard so I think he doesn't have his grace anymore.

[SueB]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Gadreel could resurrect Cas from dead. Cas resurrected Bobby in s5 when he was fully powered up. He has intermittently healed Dean and Sam of their wounds over the past 3 seasons. In s10 there was blue grace when Cas healed Dean but that is not particularly common IMO.

Then in 12.19, Cas healed Dean's  broken arm which I think was aided by Spawn power, and his bashed up leg in 12.23, which I think was also Spawn powered healing because the cut on Dean's face glowed golden which I've never seen happen before when Cas healed him. 

There was no glowing around the injury when Cas tried to heal the guard so I think he doesn't have his grace anymore.

I think Cas dies without his grace.  That certainly was the premise of S9/S10.  He doesn't just revert to human, he dies.  He's not human -- he's not sleeping.  He's got something to 'power' his existence.  

[catrox14]

55 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think Cas dies without his grace.  That certainly was the premise of S9/S10.  He doesn't just revert to human, he dies.  He's not human -- he's not sleeping.  He's got something to 'power' his existence.  

Like I said either upthread here or in another thread,I think it's Jack's power keeping him alive. He's "Jack"d up, so to speak.

[Wayward Son]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

I think Cas dies without his grace.  That certainly was the premise of S9/S10.  He doesn't just revert to human, he dies.  He's not human -- he's not sleeping.  He's got something to 'power' his existence.  

As I understood it Cas (and other angels) can exist fine without their grace! It was Cas absorbing the other angels grace in Holy Terror, which caused the problems. 

[DittyDotDot]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

I think Cas dies without his grace.  That certainly was the premise of S9/S10.  He doesn't just revert to human, he dies.  He's not human -- he's not sleeping.  He's got something to 'power' his existence.  

Cass can live just fine without his grace--as did Anna--Cass was dying only after he stole another angel's grace. 

I'm sure removing Jack's grace would depower him some, but I'm betting his grace isn't his only power source. Being half angel and half human, he would have a soul too, so I'm not so sure removing Jack's grace would solve their problems.

[Katy M]

56 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm sure removing Jack's grace would depower him some, but I'm betting his grace isn't his only power source. Being half angel and half human, he would have a soul too, so I'm not so sure removing Jack's grace would solve their problems.

How would he have a power source beyond grace?  Yes, he would live, but we've never seen an angel (or part angel) have any power without their grace.  I think that would be a total retcon if they took his grace and he still had angelic or devilish powers.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, Katy M said:

How would he have a power source beyond grace?  Yes, he would live, but we've never seen an angel (or part angel) have any power without their grace.  I think that would be a total retcon if they took his grace and he still had angelic or devilish powers.

Because, as I said, he's not just an angel, he's also part human which means he has a soul too and souls have been described as being as powerful as a sun. Humans can't typically tap into the power of their own soul, but Jack is also part angel and angels have been shown to be able to use human soul power. In fact, I would guess the reason Jack is so powerful is because he has both grace and a soul and the ability to tap into them both.

[shoetingstar]

19 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Like I said either upthread here or in another thread,I think it's Jack's power keeping him alive. He's "Jack"d up, so to speak.

The scary part of that is - can Jack take his power back at will? Therefore, "killing" Cas again? But that goes back to the "Will they truly let Jack become/show an evil side" question I've been wondering all season. 

Cas had done something no one else achieved - left the Empty - that leaves room for them to make-up some new dynamic previously not explored before. I wish the writing was up to how fascinating that could be. 

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

The scary part of that is - can Jack take his power back at will? Therefore, "killing" Cas again? But that goes back to the "Will they truly let Jack become/show an evil side" question I've been wondering all season. 

Cas had done something no one else achieved - left the Empty - that leaves room for them to make-up some new dynamic previously not explored before. I wish the writing was up to how fascinating that could be. 

OHHH they could really do a lot with that. If my theory is correct

in addition to your great question

If Jack dies, does Cas die?
What if they figure out that Cas is "Jack'd up" and then Dean, who promised to kill Jack if he goes dark side, Dean might be faced with killing Jack to save humanity even if that mean Cas dies. Could he still do it?

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If Jack dies, does Cas die?
What if they figure out that Cas is "Jack'd up" and then Dean, who promised to kill Jack if he goes dark side, Dean might be faced with killing Jack to save humanity even if that mean Cas dies. Could he still do it?

Like Dragonheart?  Would it work both ways?  Could Cas kill himself to kill Jack?  Sorry, but you got Dragonheart in my head, and it's apparently going to stay there.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Like Dragonheart?  Would it work both ways?  Could Cas kill himself to kill Jack?  Sorry, but you got Dragonheart in my head, and it's apparently going to stay there.

I've never seen it, but sure maybe it does go both ways. Maybe they are forever linked?

I have no doubt Cas would kill himself to kill Jack if he went dark side. 

[shoetingstar]

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

OHHH they could really do a lot with that. If my theory is correct

in addition to your great question

If Jack dies, does Cas die?
What if they figure out that Cas is "Jack'd up" and then Dean, who promised to kill Jack if he goes dark side, Dean might be faced with killing Jack to save humanity even if that mean Cas dies. Could he still do it?

ooh...that would be an interesting conundrum for Dean. He almost can't live with himself if he can't "save" his loved ones, so this would be awful for him.

22 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Like Dragonheart?  Would it work both ways?  Could Cas kill himself to kill Jack?  Sorry, but you got Dragonheart in my head, and it's apparently going to stay there.

I only remember the Dennis Quad movie, but vaguely. And that's a interesting question - I could see Cas doing that for the greater good, etc. Would it be NephilimHeart? 

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I've never seen it, but sure maybe it does go both ways. Maybe they are forever linked?

I have no doubt Cas would kill himself to kill Jack if he went dark side. 

This discussion reminds me of something else I wondered: What about Kelly's next of kin - the shows acts like she didn't have a family, which is weird. Unless she sprung up naked out of a clam shell like Venus - she came from someone. What kind of connection would he have to his human folks - Kelly's DNA? Like would they need one of them to stop him of he went all Big Bad or something like that? Probably belongs in another thread.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

This discussion reminds me of something else I wondered: What about Kelly's next of kin - the shows acts like she didn't have a family, which is weird. Unless she sprung up naked out of a clam shell like Venus - she came from someone. What kind of connection would he have to his human folks - Kelly's DNA? Like would they need one of them to stop him of he went all Big Bad or something like that? Probably belongs in another thread.

Well, this brings up the entire biological thing in Jack's lineage. I mean President Jeff was the actual body and his sperm should be involved unless we find out, probably in a Buck Lemming LOLCANON script, that President Jeff shot Lucifer grace into Kelly and not sperm LOL. This could probably go into All seasons. Also, I sill can't believe not ONE person on POTUS staff has asked after Kelly who was his aide nor her friend who she called and told she was pregnant.

Gods this is such a stupid plotline LOL

[SueB]

While I think it's an interesting theory, I don't think Jack is keeping Cas alive.  It's a little too close to the Connor/Jasmine plotline from "Angel".  And unless Jack becomes a permanent SPN fixture, it becomes too complicated IMO.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

While I think it's an interesting theory, I don't think Jack is keeping Cas alive.  It's a little too close to the Connor/Jasmine plotline from "Angel".  And unless Jack becomes a permanent SPN fixture, it becomes too complicated IMO.

Yeah, I'm not even convinced Cass is depowered. But, it is an interesting theory.

[shoetingstar]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well, this brings up the entire biological thing in Jack's lineage. I mean President Jeff was the actual body and his sperm should be involved unless we find out, probably in a Buck Lemming LOLCANON script, that President Jeff shot Lucifer grace into Kelly and not sperm LOL. This could probably go into All seasons. Also, I sill can't believe not ONE person on POTUS staff has asked after Kelly who was his aide nor her friend who she called and told she was pregnant.

Gods this is such a stupid plotline LOL

That, it is! However, stupid plotlines in the right hands could be somewhat rewarding. But I'm like Dean a couple episodes ago - Weary, untrustful of TPTB, just plain scared at how bad this is going to all go!

There really should be some "Missing Pregnant Woman" stories on Kelly on the TV at least. You know media eats that up lol. or did the do that and I missed it?! Acknowledging how the "normal" non-supernaturally aware world still operates would actually add to the plot.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

There really should be some "Missing Pregnant Woman" stories on Kelly on the TV at least. You know media eats that up lol. or did the do that and I missed it?! Acknowledging how the "normal" non-supernaturally aware world still operates would actually add to the plot.

You know, once they actually had the boys arrested for trying to assassinate POTUS, I thought MAYBE some real world consequences or questions would start coming up. Hell, I would even tolerate finding out that Ketch, upon learning that Kelly was pregnant (Like surely they knew) handled anyone attached to Kelly in some way. 

 Dean covered up the bank guard death in some way...which I would like to know what he did so why not more about Kelly

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, SueB said:

While I think it's an interesting theory, I don't think Jack is keeping Cas alive.  It's a little too close to the Connor/Jasmine plotline from "Angel".  And unless Jack becomes a permanent SPN fixture, it becomes too complicated IMO.

SPN already had Amara eating souls in exchange for blissing them out, which is Jasmine 101. And Holtz is Donatello! AFAIR Connor and Jasmine had a psychic link but their life forces weren't tied together. 

[catrox14]

I was rewatching this and I REALLY enjoyed Sgt. Phillips. He has a great voice. I would love to see him come back as law enforcement ally for the boys. He's got a lot of screen presence.

[SueB]

17 hours ago, catrox14 said:

SPN already had Amara eating souls in exchange for blissing them out, which is Jasmine 101. And Holtz is Donatello! AFAIR Connor and Jasmine had a psychic link but their life forces weren't tied together. 

Only Connor or Cordelia could physically hurt Jasmine. She had to keep Cordelia around (in a coma and safe). Cordelia's blood removed the illusion of pretty Jasmine had. Connor never experienced the illusion - he just accepted the f*cked up maggot face was 'beautiful' because Quortoth gave him different standards and she was his child. Connor, of course, was also manipulated until he decided the lie was too much to bear. And then he punched her brain out - literally. Only Connor could have killed Jasmine due to their biological link. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Only Connor or Cordelia could physically hurt Jasmine. She had to keep Cordelia around (in a coma and safe). Cordelia's blood removed the illusion of pretty Jasmine had. Connor never experienced the illusion - he just accepted the f*cked up maggot face was 'beautiful' because Quortoth gave him different standards and she was his child. Connor, of course, was also manipulated until he decided the lie was too much to bear. And then he punched her brain out - literally. Only Connor could have killed Jasmine due to their biological link. 

Indeed that all did happen and the difference is that Jasmine and Connor were not keeping each other alive which is what my spec includes with Cas and Jack. Like Connor didn't die when he killed Jasmine despite their psychic link.

Jack didn't apparently intend to resurrect Jack he just wished for him and his immense power reached to the Empty and resurrected him and thus far Jack doesn't need to eat souls.

Other point that makes me doubt that Castiel has his grace now or that it might not be him, is that Jack didn't recognize Cas immediately, and all angels know they other angels on sight regardless of the meatsuit.  So what gives with that exchange?

I dunno, I just think something is hinky with Cas.

[Wayward Son]

While I too worry we may discover Cas isn’t actually Cas but the Empty!Cas. I do have one question? Did Jack actually resurrect Cas? As I understood it Jack “woke” Castiel, but the actual return to Earth was caused by the empty so it would be that being rather than Jack he’s tied to? 

 

I also would be happy if Cas were lacking in grace. At least if that meant he got paired with some interesting human characters instead of generic angel of the week when he’s a part from the brothers. 

[MysteryGuest]

I'm not convinced that Jack and Cas are linked by anything other than their original bond.  I think Wayward Son is right when he says that Jack may have woken Cas, but if the entity in The Empty hadn't spit him out, he'd still be there.  As for his grace, I don't know.  I thought they made a rather big point out of the fact that his powers weren't working so he couldn't revive the guard.  I'm going to assume that's going to come up again pretty soon.  

If Cas has lost his grace, and is technically human now, then Jack may not have recognized him, one angel to another.  I don't believe Cas will remain powerless, but I wouldn't actually mind it.  

[DeeDee79]

38 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'd say if you have to state more than once that it's not B v J,  it's probably B v J. LOL!

That's what I was thinking..

[RulerofallIsurvey]

9 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

That's what I was thinking..

Or because I've been burned before from misinterpretation of what I was trying to say.  Much like this time also, it seems.  :(

[MysteryGuest]

I honestly didn't feel that the show was giving us any more of Dean's reaction to Cas' return than Sam's.  I was actually pleasantly surprised by that.  I do agree that the opening scene of Dean hunting with some stranger was a bit jarring, but I'm sure that was by design.  They knew we'd been waiting for a week to see the big reunion, so they were going to make us wait for it.

I'm not sure whether it was because my expectations were too high, but this episode just didn't live up to it's potential as far as I'm concerned.