These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[Bobcatkitten]

I can definitely buy a depressed, drunken Dean wallowing after what he did as Michael. So seeing his room a mess could work for me. 

And the only ever crossover I have ever wanted was X-Files. 

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I can definitely buy a depressed, drunken Dean wallowing after what he did as Michael. So seeing his room a mess could work for me. 

And the only ever crossover I have ever wanted was X-Files. 

The problem is that it's unclear if this is a current timeframe episode, or just a messy set that is in flux and not completed, or maybe messy for a flashback.

Dean being depressed and drunk and wallowing after allowing Michael to possess IMO would be the worst thing ever. I would love for the big flip of script to be that Dean doesn't wallow and decides that he's going to make whatever wrongs Michael did right. That would have much more value to this viewer than another round of broken, depressed Dean.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

The problem is that it's unclear if this is a current timeframe episode, or just a messy set that is in flux and not completed, or maybe messy for a flashback.

Dean being depressed and drunk and wallowing after allowing Michael to possess IMO would be the worst thing ever. I would love for the big flip of script to be that Dean doesn't wallow and decides that he's going to make whatever wrongs Michael did right. That would have much more value to this viewer than another round of broken, depressed Dean.

This is what I was hoping for, a broken Dean more along the lines of s2 where he reckless and trying to save as many people as he can to make up for the ones Michael killed.   That could still cause Dean to be drinking a lot and having a messy room, to show he's not really coping that well.  It would be more original (and I use that term loosely) than just another season of mopey depression/guilt which was Dean's storyline for the last 3 seasons,

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

And the only ever crossover I have ever wanted was X-Files. 

Yes please!

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

This is what I was hoping for, a broken Dean more along the lines of s2 where he reckless and trying to save as many people as he can to make up for the ones Michael killed.   That could still cause Dean to be drinking a lot and having a messy room, to show he's not really coping that well.  It would be more original (and I use that term loosely) than just another season of mopey depression/guilt which was Dean's storyline for the last 3 seasons,

But that wouldn't leave room for Leader!Sam, which sure sounds like the through line of this season. Have I mentions lately that showrunner Dabb is the worst thing to ever happen to Dean? 

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But that wouldn't leave room for Leader!Sam, which sure sounds like the through line of this season. Have I mentions lately that showrunner Dabb is the worst thing to ever happen to Dean? 

Sam will follow anyone down the garden path who dangles anything shiny in front of his face.  His leading the mission into the AU ended with him getting killed and Lucifer and Michael teaming up.   I can't buy Sam as a leader.  He wants to be in charge, but IMO, that isn't the same thing as leading.

I agree, Dabb is the worst. 

Edited August 18, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

*this post is not meant in a bitch/jerk context.  This is something Dabb actually talked about in one of his comic con interviews. 

Egads! Can you link that for me? Not that I really want to see it, but my morbid curiosity is getting the better of me. And if that's how he sees Dean...JFC ....there is no hope.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Egads! Can you link that for me? Not that I really want to see it, but my morbid curiosity is getting the better of me. And if that's how he sees Dean...JFC ....there is no hope.

I don't have the link anymore.  It might not have been Dabb.  It honestly could have been Singer, or Buck/Lemming but it was in one of them.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Reganne said:

And I dont think the writing will say it's because of Dean holding him back.

I think they did this with the kiddie table line.  IMO, that was done for a reason. 

But that is off topic for this thread so I'll leave it there.

[Bobcatkitten]

I've decided we shouldn't take the storylines we've told this season too seriously. they said that when only like six episodes had been written. So who knows what the real season-long arcs will be. We just essentially know the first few episodes. 

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I've decided we shouldn't take the storylines we've told this season too seriously. they said that when only like six episodes had been written. So who knows what the real season-long arcs will be. We just essentially know the first few episodes. 

They told us last season that Asmodeus would be  big deal but he really wasn't and the Shidin (sp?) which sputtered out at 13.2.  Sam is arguably the main character or one of two and his arc won't sputter out. They will IMO use Dean's possession by Michael to get Dean off the board to prove to Sam he really can lead without Dean.  And Jared said Sam was going to more or less take the lessons from Dean and become the leader.  I think that is the main thrust and possibly the fallout from Michael.  And I do not believe for one moment that Lucifer is not coming back. 

[ILoveReading]

Not techically a spoiler but posting here due to spoiler speculation.  Jared's beard doesn't look as thick as it did at comic con.   Its like he didn't film for a couple of days and this is the stubble.

So disappointing but not surprising that Michael didn't even last 3 episodes. 

Flashbacks don't count because there is no tension in them.  We know Michael's agenda and like the Amara flashbacks it will probably be the same thing over and over.

Edited August 18, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Bobcatkitten]

Just like Purgatory. We will already know he is safe and back with family so flashbacks have less impact. I really thought we would get more than three we had for Demon Dean. But clearly they are uncomfortable having the brothers apart for any length of time. And I'm not saying I wouldn't miss Dean and Sam together but it would be worth it for a great story arc.

[Pondlass1]

The writers are limited by their own limited imaginations.  And there's been so much gripe on twitter about the brothers not being joined at the hip for any length of time.  So it was to be expected that it wouldn't last long.  

I just hope and pray that Dean casts out Michael all by himself, just through his own strength of will.  I don't want him 'saved' by hocus pocus and spells. Bin there dun that.

[catrox14]

You know what would be amazing? If Michael, who seems to think humanity needs a purge, wants people to be like Dean. That is people who keep their word in general, who put love and loyalty in high regard. Who sacrifice, probably too much.

I would love it if Dean, just by being Dean and having the life he has had, that Michael sees in Dean's memories, decides that maybe humanity doesn't need a purge, per se, but more of being more like Dean's best qualities.  That would be pretty great.

[DeeDee79]

I can't say that I'm surprised to hear that Dean!Michael will be over after a few episodes. It's funny ( or predictable ) how they listen to the fans that don't want the brothers to be separated while blowing off the ones that have been waiting for Dean to have an interesting arc that Jensen can sink his teeth into. Between that and the WS crap that's going to be shoehorned into the already shortened season I'm not as excited as I was for the new season. 

[ILoveReading]

6 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

The writers are limited by their own limited imaginations.  And there's been so much gripe on twitter about the brothers not being joined at the hip for any length of time.  So it was to be expected that it wouldn't last long.  

This to me is why the writers are lazy.  There are so many ways to get around the separation issue without dropping the story or just resorting to flashbacks.   The writers took the easiest/least imaginative route possible. 

[ILoveReading]

We can definitively say Dean is back.

I guess this is why Jensen said that he doesn't know how to play Michael yet in the gold panel.  He never actually got a chance to play him.

I finally listened to that question and I didn't find Jared's answer cagey.  "It's like when I got back from the cage, maybe something is wrong.  He's basically saying that Dean's back and trying not to say Dean's back.

Edited August 22, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

So, likely two measly episodes with a scene or two per episode? And then back to status quo with some lame flashbacks here and there until episode 6. Yup, amazing "arc". 

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

So, likely two measly episodes with a scene or two per episode? And then back to status quo with some lame flashbacks here and there until episode 6. Yup, amazing "arc". 

Yup.  With about 2-3 minutes of flashbacks. 

So I'd say overall we're going to actually have less Michael and we did Demon Dean.

[gonzosgirrl]

I just can't imagine why Jensen is still smiling if this is the case. He made it abundantly clear how unhappy he was with the DD story being curtailed. How could they do it to him again? I really, really want there to be some other explanation for Dean being 'back'. Some clever, satisfying twist that lets us have Michael!Dean for more than a hot minute and some flashbacks. Goddamnit.

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

We can definitively say Dean is back.

I guess this is why Jensen said that he doesn't know how to play Michael yet in the gold panel.  He never actually got a chance to play him.

I finally listened to that question and I didn't find Jared's answer cagey.  "It's like when I got back from the cage, maybe something is wrong.  He's basically saying that Dean's back and trying not to say Dean's back.

Fuck this show and their GD bait and switch for Jensen fans who want to see him do something unique for an actual good extended arc. I am so irritated and disappointed. I was too hopeful. 

I'm even beginning to doubt that we'll actually get that Michael!Dean scene that was shown at Comic Con.

[ILoveReading]

Given the way the show has handled Dean's PTSD in the past, the aftermath story doesn't excite me that much.  I'd rather they just drop it.

My guess-

Cas- will tell Dean's he's disappointed in him

Mary- how could you.

Bobby- idijt

Sam- you promised to let me take care of Lucifer.  Stop treating me like a child. 

[Bobcatkitten]

Yeah, I don't know what to think. Maybe he gets away and then is the vessel again later on in the season? Who knows. I'm trying not to overthink and just enjoy.

 

Also, we didn't get any full episodes in purgatory - just flashbacks. 

We got three Demon Dean episodes but no flashbacks.

 

So technically three eps plus flashbacks is more. Maybe enough to satisfy Jensen? 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Bobcatkitten

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Given the way the show has handled Dean's PTSD in the past, the aftermath story doesn't excite me that much.  I'd rather they just drop it.

My guess-

Cas- will tell Dean's he's disappointed in him

Mary- how could you.

Bobby- idijt

Sam- you promised to let me take care of Lucifer.  Stop treating me like a child. 

Yes.

Cas- will tell Dean's he's disappointed in him (despite Dean forgiving and praising him for helping Lucifer out of the cage)

Mary- how could you. (despite... well, being Mary the Ice Queen, there is no despite here)

Bobby- idijt (despite being a complete stranger who doesn't know Dean *at all*)

Sam- you promised to let me take care of Lucifer.  Stop treating me like a child. (despite him facing imminent death again and some more)

4 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

So technically three eps plus flashbacks is more. Maybe enough to satisfy Jensen? 

The only thing stopping me from flipping tables right now is that Jensen does seem to be satisfied. I have to hope he knows something we don't.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

So technically three eps plus flashbacks is more. Maybe enough to satisfy Jensen? 

I highly doubt that pleases Jensen.  He's too savvy to really be completely forthright about being unhappy with the shortened arcs.  He went after the terrible fight choreography but I don't think he'd go after the arc directly yet. He'll continue to say things like "The story had to move forward".

At this point, I hope that Jensen is only happy because now he has another character to add to his own personal highlight reel and read for other parts.   

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I highly doubt that pleases Jensen.  He's too savvy to really be completely forthright about being unhappy with the shortened arcs.  He went after the terrible fight choreography but I don't think he'd go after the arc directly yet. He'll continue to say things like "The story had to move forward".

At this point, I hope that Jensen is only happy because now he has another character to add to his own personal highlight reel and read for other parts.   

And unless the flashbacks lead back to some kind of present-time consequences that we don't already know are resolved (by Dean being back), then who cares? I have zero interest in watching Dean beat himself up for things Michael did, no matter what they are. Pre-ass kicking by Jack/Lucifer, Michael was intent on ending humanity anyway; post, Lucifer was. So Dean gave them the only fighting chance they had. Fuck his 'family' if they can't see that, and fuck Dabb if he's going to make Dean guilty and depressed again.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And unless the flashbacks lead back to some kind of present-time consequences that we don't already know are resolved (by Dean being back), then who cares? I have zero interest in watching Dean beat himself up for things Michael did, no matter what they are. Pre-ass kicking by Jack/Lucifer, Michael was intent on ending humanity anyway; post, Lucifer was. So Dean gave them the only fighting chance they had. Fuck his 'family' if they can't see that, and fuck Dabb if he's going to make Dean guilty and depressed again.

Yup.  I expect Dabb to say Dean did this just to protect Sam and Jack.  Nothing about him trying to stop Lucifer and give humanity a fighting chance. 

It seems the purpose of the Michael storyline is to allow Sam to take his rightful place as leader, for Cas to be Jack's role model since Sam and Dean are busy.  For Jack to prove he's useful without powers and to force the waywards back into the story becasue Michael would totally be interested in teenagers with exactly one partially successful hunt to their credit. 

Dean's part- to feel guilty, and despressed and see how weak he is and how he head Sam back from his true purpose. 

This story feels like its about everyone but Dean or to make him learn multiple lessons.

Until someone tells him to suck it up. 

[catrox14]

[gonzosgirrl]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I love his sense of humour. ♥ On a more shallow note, how can look that slim in a white shirt?

[Bobcatkitten]

Jensen you are the best!

[catrox14]

Jensen is hilarious. 

What I find most troubling about that whole thing is that DEAN is wearing short sleeved button down white shirt.  I mean I'm all for ARMS but why is DEAN wearing short sleeved fed thread. He wears long sleeves and rolls them up. 

Could we get lucky that Michael is still in charge and decided to tap into Dean's inner nerd and took him to work at the comic store? And Sam has driven the Impala to the comic store to investigate something and that's where they reunite?

Or is the answer much more mundane in that it's just a short sleeved shirt for Jensen's comfort? I'm ...perplexed.

ETA: Also, Under the Red Hood is freaking awesome. Seriously. Do yourselves a favor and watch it.

It's one of the best Batman films EVER.  YES I put it next to the Nolan Batman films. Fight me.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Jensen is hilarious. 

What I find most troubling about that whole thing is that DEAN is wearing short sleeved button down white shirt.  I mean I'm all for ARMS but why is DEAN wearing short sleeved fed thread. He wears long sleeves and rolls them up. 

Could we get lucky that Michael is still in charge and decided to tap into Dean's inner nerd and took him to work at the comic store? And Sam has driven the Impala to the comic store to investigate something and that's where they reunite?

Or is the answer much more mundane in that it's just a short sleeved shirt for Jensen's comfort? I'm ...perplexed.

Sam has on a short-sleeved shirt too.  YVR Shoots is guessing that they're posing as comic nerds.  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Sam has on a short-sleeved shirt too.  YVR Shoots is guessing that they're posing as comic nerds.  

Bummer????

[ILoveReading]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Jensen is hilarious. 

What I find most troubling about that whole thing is that DEAN is wearing short sleeved button down white shirt.  I mean I'm all for ARMS but why is DEAN wearing short sleeved fed thread. He wears long sleeves and rolls them up. 

Could we get lucky that Michael is still in charge and decided to tap into Dean's inner nerd and took him to work at the comic store? And Sam has driven the Impala to the comic store to investigate something and that's where they reunite?

Or is the answer much more mundane in that it's just a short sleeved shirt for Jensen's comfort? I'm ...perplexed.

ETA: Also, Under the Red Hood is freaking awesome. Seriously. Do yourselves a favor and watch it.

It's one of the best Batman films EVER.  YES I put it next to the Nolan Batman films. Fight me.

If he's really hot out they sometimes will block and practice scenes in short sleeve shirts or shirts with the sleeves of off.  We might not even see the short sleeves in the finished project if they have a jacket on.

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If he's really hot out they sometimes will block and practice scenes in short sleeve shirts or shirts with the sleeves of off.  We might not even see the short sleeves in the finished project if they have a jacket on.

Again, from the YVR Shoots site:

Replying to @yvrshoots

Are these rehearsal pics or did they actually not have on jackets when they were filming?

 

 6YVRShoots‏ @yvrshoots 19h19 hours ago

Had no jackets in rehearsal and when rolling. Posing as comic nerds?

 

Someone also suggested that maybe this was in Dean's head while Michael was possessing him?  (Keeping him quiet by having him think he's out and following cases on his own?)  I like that idea!

[Bobcatkitten]

I think it's probably simple - undercover as nerds of some sort at a comic store for Halloween-themed episode. 

[ILoveReading]

15 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Someone also suggested that maybe this was in Dean's head while Michael was possessing him?  (Keeping him quiet by having him think he's out and following cases on his own?)  I like that idea!

I like this idea too but they told Jensen he couldn't have a beard because of flashbacks.  So if this is in Dean's head than Sam would still need the beard in present time.  Jared has clearly shaved. 

I also don't beleive the writers are that clever.

Edited August 23, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

So if this is in Dean's head than Sam would still need the beard in present time.  Jared has clearly shaved. 

IF, and I don't believe it to be the case, it is a Dean headspace maybe Sam is clean shaven because Dean's memories are of of a clean shaven Sam? 

[Bobcatkitten]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

IF, and I don't believe it to be the case, it is a Dean headspace maybe Sam is clean shaven because Dean's memories are of of a clean shaven Sam? 

Yeah but then Sam would need a full beard again in just a few days for the next episode. Clearly Dean is back and the season has moved on. I'm sure the Michael storyline isn't over but definitely paused.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IF, and I don't believe it to be the case, it is a Dean headspace maybe Sam is clean shaven because Dean's memories are of of a clean shaven Sam? 

This is true and it would make sense for Sam to be shaven in Dean's head.  But there would be some scenes taking place in present time and outside of Dean's head as well and Jared would need the beard for those.  Logistically it doesn't work. 

Edited August 23, 2018 by ILoveReading

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is true and it would make sense for Sam to be shaven in Dean's head.  But there would be some scenes taking place in present time and outside of Dean's head as well and Jared would need the beard for those.  Logistically it doesn't work. 

 

Well, they group scenes so could do all the scruffy ones first and the clean shaven ones later.  I don't think it takes Jared that long to grow a beard (so he can be clean shaven Wednesday-Thursday and have his beard back for  Monday-Tuesday?)  Maybe I'm just reaching. :)

But I like this for my new headcanon to make me feel better, at least till proven otherwise:  Three separate (but equal?) SLs:  One of scruffy Sam trying desperately to find/save Dean (and gathering his army).  One of Michael/Dean gathering his army.  One of the two of them together hunting (which is all in Dean's head as he's trapped by Michael.)  Sam can be either clean shaven or scruffy while hunting.  Wouldn't it be wonderful if we *think* Dean is saved by episode 3 and working the Halloween case, but it's really all in Dean's mind?  And we won't know which is real and which is dream/flashback till later? 

But yeah, that's giving the writers way too much credit. *sigh*

Edited August 23, 2018 by ahrtee

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is true and it would make sense for Sam to be shaven in Dean's head.  But there would be some scenes taking place in present time and outside of Dean's head as well and Jared would need the beard for those.  Logistically it doesn't work. 

The only other thought I have is that maybe the filmed everything out of order. Like even

 

16 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

One of scruffy Sam trying desperately to find/save Dean (and gathering his army)

This just reminds me.  How can Sam be so fully committed to saving Dean and being a leader of an army?  It will piss me off if they have Sam be more involved in being General Sam than finding Dean. I mean it's not like he doesn't know what Dean looks like.  And the only really challenge Sam would have is that Michael can teleport and erase memories but can he erase ALL the video out there? 

Is Sam going to enlist his minions to specifically help him find Dean or train them to be hunters? Or will he  just speechify them into being hunters?  After not looking for Dean in s8, I can't fathom why Sam would be doing anything but looking to save Dean. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Clearly Dean is back and the season has moved on. I'm sure the Michael storyline isn't over but definitely paused.

I think it`s over for Dean, though. Michael will be missing a few episodes and we`ll get a very short flashback in those. And then when he comes back for a real storyline, it will be in a different vessel. 

I`m also wondering what role Dean will come back to after a short stint as Michael.  Sam is the general of his army now, Mary is focused on diddling Bobby, Cas and Jack are bonding. As long as Dean hosts Michael, he has a place in the narrative. Afterwards, I`m not so sure. 

[Bobcatkitten]

31 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think it`s over for Dean, though. Michael will be missing a few episodes and we`ll get a very short flashback in those. And then when he comes back for a real storyline, it will be in a different vessel. 

I`m also wondering what role Dean will come back to after a short stint as Michael.  Sam is the general of his army now, Mary is focused on diddling Bobby, Cas and Jack are bonding. As long as Dean hosts Michael, he has a place in the narrative. Afterwards, I`m not so sure. 

I don't know that I need him to have a specific role in the narrative except to be his badass self helping people. I try not to get caught up in the "who is the leader" argument. Sometimes it's Sam. Sometimes it's Dean. As long as Dean is there and participating in hunts, fights, strategizing, dropping funny lines then I'm good. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I don't know that I need him to have a specific role in the narrative except to be his badass self helping people. I try not to get caught up in the "who is the leader" argument. Sometimes it's Sam. Sometimes it's Dean. As long as Dean is there and participating in hunts, fights, strategizing, dropping funny lines then I'm good. 

I`m not. The writing for his character is usually slightly better when he has a role in the narrative. If not, it veers between being depressed and suddenly inept and comic relief. 

At this point I will watch the Michael scenes - that Jensen plays - but I`m not sure I`ll be inclined to watch anything else. Not even Dean. Probably gonna be a short Season for me.  

[ILoveReading]

From the sounds of it, we are barely getting any Michael in present time, and it sounds like the show is going to cut even more time out of it.

Quote

"And with nine seasons of demon-fighting under her belt, there's no one more qualified for the job than Sheriff Mills. However, her return might not be all about saving the Winchesters."

This is the 2nd wayward article.  Guess we know where Dabb and co. priorities lie.

[ukgirl71]

Don't suppose we could all take career breaks, go to Vancouver and take over the writers' room, even for six months?

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

From the sounds of it, we are barely getting any Michael in present time, and it sounds like the show is going to cut even more time out of it.

This is the 2nd wayward article.  Guess we know where Dabb and co. priorities lie.

I really wonder if Michael!Dean was going to be longer because Dabband Berens were banking on WS being greenlit and they wouldn't have to write for WS in SPN and now that they weren't he's going to turn SPN into WS and ease back on stories for Sam and especially Dean. I wonder if promises were made to Kim and Kathryn and Briana that if WS doesn't fly, they will write  them into more SPN eps, so they gave Jensen the  Michael!Dean thing as a carrot for him to accept less Dean and allowed Jared to keep his beard as a carrot to accept less Sam. And cynically, I think they want to throw a bone to WS supporters by saying they will have a place in SPN.

And it could be spin that makes it sound like more WS but it might be 2 eps out of 20. Who knows.

What I don't want  is more inorganic story telling, more OOC behavior from Dean and Sam to advance a WS agenda in SPN. They already out a dent in Dean with the putting a gun in Kaia's face. I shudder to think what else they would do to the boys to benefit WS.

[Pondlass1]

The Js are getting lots of time off.  That's the only silver lining in all this.  I foresee a ratings drop and possibly cancellation notice next Spring.

Recycling is good for the environment, but not for TV shows.  Dabb & Co. have become too comfy with same shit different day. Something new and challenging like, for instance, writing not!Dean sends them scurrying to check out old scripts.... oh yeah, purgatory flashbacks, Demon Dean injections.... which one should we repeat?