A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Curio]

5 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's my least favorite episode of the entire series. It manages to be worse than: Breaking Glass, Bleeding Through, The S5 finale, and Selfless, Brave and True. This one offends me the most for the sheer amount of stupid character assassination across the board. It put in motion huge problems we're still dealing with to this day.

Wasn't this also the first episode back from the winter hiatus that season? You almost have to wonder if A&E did a drastic re-working of the entire show during that winter break.

[Camera One]

MMB: Emma, she tried to kill us...yesterday!

Emma: No, she didn’t. She’s trying to change for Henry. He believes in her. And right now, that’s enough for me. I couldn’t have changed if I wasn’t given a chance, so… She gets one, too.

That sounds remarkably like this conversation:

MMB: Look, we don't know anything about these two. They could be looking for redemption, but they also could be as evil as Mr. Gold or Zelena or worse.
Emma: That could be, but they just helped us, and we made a deal.
MMB: Doesn't matter. It's a bad idea. They're villains.
Regina: You're right. They are. They're horrible... But not as horrible as I was once. And if I deserve a second chance, so do they. How can I sit here, looking for my happiness, and deny two others a chance at theirs?
Emma: I'm with Regina. We let them in.

[Shanna Marie]

There was definitely a sense of something breaking -- you can practically hear the needle screeching on the record -- at around that point. I still maintain that the jump-the-shark moment for the series was when they zoomed in on Regina's sad face when her victims didn't invite her to join them for their first-ever dinner together as a family, after Regina's schemes had kept them apart all that time. And yet we were supposed to feel sorry for her and think they were all terrible people for not inviting her. That was when the tone and focus of the show did an abrupt shift, and it's never fully recovered. That was what kicked off the "poor Regina" stuff, where she was shown as a victim because her victims weren't keen on trusting her and where she was the victim in the loss of Cora even though she sided with Cora in spite of learning that Cora had engineered everything, including the death of Snow's mother and the situation in which Regina got to rescue Snow. And meanwhile, for every closeup of sad Regina's tear-filled eyes in the present, they showed us an even more horrible view of the evils of the Evil Queen in the past, with the result being a giant sense of What? The? Hell? As I said, I came so very close to dropping the show around that time, and it was only the season finale with the Neverland stuff that kept me around.

[Curio]

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Regina: They're horrible... But not as horrible as I was once. And if I deserve a second chance, so do they. How can I sit here, looking for my happiness, and deny two others a chance at theirs?

But don't dare call Regina the Evil Queen. Or remind her of her past evilness. Only she can talk about her past on her terms.

[Camera One]

Quote

The general theme of the episode was that poor Regina was misunderstood and falsely accused, and it had been the right thing to do to let her go (never mind that she'd done the things she was accused of, tried to kill Snow even as Snow was showing her mercy, and went on to enact the curse after she was freed), so now they needed to show her the same kind of mercy and benefit of the doubt.

So the lesson of the episode was Snow was wrong.  Snow should not be letting the prejudice of what happened in the past affect her attitude towards Regina today, especially since Regina was wrongfully accused, and Snow unfairly turned Emma against Regina.

But despite the badness of "The Cricket Game", at least there were some Charming family moments.  Like:

MMB: You can do this.

Emma: Tell my son that someone he loved was killed by someone else he cares about? I don’t know if I can. Yeah, I don’t think I can do any of this. This is like real parent stuff. How can I be a parent if I never was one?

David: I know. I’ve been asking myself the same question.

Emma: Oh, no. You guys don’t have to… It-It’s different.

MMB: No, it isn’t. And yes, we have to. We can figure it out. So can you.

Emma: You don’t know me. You don’t know what I was before Storybrooke. And trust me, I was not parent material.

David: Yeah, but we know who you are since you’ve been here.

Emma: What if I revert? Regina did.

David: You’re not going to. And the Emma I know was great with Henry.

Emma: I was his parent for five minutes.

David: And I was yours for five minutes, too, but things are different now – for all of us. We don’t have to go through any of it alone. We’re family.

----

There was a ton to build upon from that single conversation, enough for several seasons' worth.  Too bad none of that happened.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

 

I don't think people were giving Emma a pass.  They were noting that Emma felt deep remorse for what she did and beat herself up over it, and she does make a huge effort not to affect other people, in both 5A and 5B.  Ultimately, the worst thing she did was take Violet's heart.

Thank you. And yes, I agree. 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

 Ultimately, the worst thing she did was take Violet's heart.

Well, and attempt to murder Zelena in cold blood. 

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

As for being influenced by the Darkness: if Rumpel gets no pass for the awful things he's done while the Dark One, why should Emma? All I see is one standard for certain characters over others.

I specifically said in my post that "That doesn't absolve her of course, but she regretted every single one of her mistakes and corrected them." I don't know where you got the idea from my post that Emma gets a pass for everything. Rumple, as another poster said, reaches rock bottom, and keeps digging. I also think we should take into account Emma took on the Darkness to save other people, unlike Rumple, who deliberately took it back when he had been handed a clean slate. 

Edited July 18, 2016 by Rumsy4

[KAOS Agent]

5 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Well, and attempt to murder Zelena in cold blood. 

Considering Zelena was responsible for Hook's initial death and planned to kill Snowing, Regina and Robin in Camelot and then immediately murdered some random people in Oz about three days after returning there, I don't really see the problem with that. I mean, I know in this show we should just let murderers have all kinds of second chances, but damn it, what about the peasants? Snow should not have let Regina go as it led to many deaths and pain and suffering of innocent people, and Zelena should equally not have been let go to wreak havoc in Oz. No one gives a damn about the random innocents in the world.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Considering Zelena was responsible for Hook's initial death and planned to kill Snowing, Regina and Robin in Camelot and then immediately murdered some random people in Oz about three days after returning there, I don't really see the problem with that. I mean, I know in this show we should just let murderers have all kinds of second chances, but damn it, what about the peasants?

This wasn't some execution, though. Emma was doing it because she thought that would be the most convenient choice for everyone.

[TheGreenKnight]

9 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I specifically said in my post that "That doesn't absolve her of course, but she regretted every single one of her mistakes and corrected them." I don't know where you got the idea from my post that Emma gets a pass for everything. Rumple, as another poster said, reaches rock bottom, and keeps digging. I also think we should take into account Emma took on the Darkness to save other people, unlike Rumple, who deliberately took it back when he had been handed a clean slate. 

People aren't good by comparison, they are either good or not (or somewhere inbetween, which is where I'd put Emma). And one good act can't wipe away bad behavior either? At least that's the takeaway I get from the discussion about other characters here, why not Emma. Even in the first season, her intrusion in Regina and Henry's relationship invites a pretty crappy character interpretation, considering she had no idea Regina was a monster from a fairytale land. In real life, she'd be taken to court for stalking. I know I often hear complaints about various things Regina/Rumpel have done that have been swept under a rug by the writers, but they never really addressed how inappropriate Emma interfering in the life of her adopted child after she gave him up is either.

[Souris]

1 hour ago, TheGreenKnight said:

People aren't good by comparison, they are either good or not (or somewhere inbetween, which is where I'd put Emma). And one good act can't wipe away bad behavior either? At least that's the takeaway I get from the discussion about other characters here, why not Emma. Even in the first season, her intrusion in Regina and Henry's relationship invites a pretty crappy character interpretation, considering she had no idea Regina was a monster from a fairytale land. In real life, she'd be taken to court for stalking. I know I often hear complaints about various things Regina/Rumpel have done that have been swept under a rug by the writers, but they never really addressed how inappropriate Emma interfering in the life of her adopted child after she gave him up is either.

I don't think it was inappropriate at all given that Emma (rightly) feared for his safety and sanity with Regina. He was wildly unhappy and was being gaslit. What kind of mother or person would she be to have just said, "Oh, well, I gave him up, no reason to care, sucks to be him, byeeeee!" 

[TheGreenKnight]

Yes, Regina was lying to him about fairytales, but how would Emma even know that? As for safety, we'll have to agree to disagree there. I don't think his safety was ever in danger with Regina. I'm going to say Emma's lie detector ability (faulty as it's come to be) was just an excuse to invite herself back into Henry's life because she was lonely. From Emma's perspective, all she had to go on was that Henry was unhappy (not unusual for a child) and Regina was rude to her when she tried to insert herself into the situation (not unreasonable).

Edited July 19, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[KAOS Agent]

Henry showed up at Emma's door and Emma immediately brought Henry home and had every intention of leaving town and never seeing him again. She stuck around because Regina freaked out on her. She in fact did try to leave that first night and was stopped by the wolf (I wonder if Emma could have left at that point?) And later, Emma was literally on her way to her car to leave town forever when Regina said this to her, "I suggest you get in your car, and you leave this town. Because if you don’t, I will destroy you if it is the last thing I do. Goodbye, Miss Swan." That's not a normal reaction to things. It worried Emma that something was wrong and she stuck around to make sure Henry was okay. Even so, she spent the next several episodes telling Henry that Regina loves him and that she wants what's best for him including in the Pilot, "Look, your mom is trying her best. I know it’s hard and I know sometimes you think she doesn’t love you, but at least she wants you." Basically, if Regina hadn't sabotaged herself, Emma would have been long gone. I really think that if Regina had just acted normally in the week Emma was planning to stick around for, she would have left then. Emma's intent was not to become Henry's mother. She just wanted to make sure he was happy.

To get back to the other subject of what's good or bad, I'd say the bigger issue with judging a character's actions is intent. Was Emma intent on harming anyone when she saved Hook? No. Was it a poor decision? Yes. When Regina asked Emma to risk her own well being to save Robin was that an evil action? No. Was it a terrible thing to ask Emma? Yes. Again to take a less polarizing example, let's look at Archie. He was desperate to escape his parents and it accidentally resulted in Geppetto's parents being turned into creepy puppets. Does this make him a horrible person? Is he a low life scum for this? No. He made a massive mistake with terrible consequences and to atone he became a cricket (which makes zero sense, but we'll go with it). I think we'd all agree that Archie isn't a bad person. Now if he'd gleefully tortured that sweet couple and murdered them because he'd been having a bad day, we'd look at him differently.

That's why it's so much harder for me to get past the actions of the Evil Queen and Rumpel. They have sad events in their pasts, but their actions later on have nothing to do with those events. So when Regina kills some random groom on his wedding day or smiles at the destruction she has wrought when she murders and burns an entire village or claps and laughs as she parades Marian around with a bag on her head, those aren't understandable, human actions. They are sick and evil. When Rumpel talks about how he dreams of crunching veins with his teeth or doesn't remember turning a butcher into a pig or kills a mute maid or murders his wife (twice!), I don't care about how much he regrets the choices he made about Bae. He's just a sick, sadistic fuck who needs to be put down.

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

 And later, Emma was literally on her way to her car to leave town forever when Regina said this to her, "I suggest you get in your car, and you leave this town. Because if you don’t, I will destroy you if it is the last thing I do. Goodbye, Miss Swan." That's not a normal reaction to things.

...

When Regina asked Emma to risk her own well being to save Robin was that an evil action? No. Was it a terrible thing to ask Emma? Yes.

I don't agree with either of these things. Regina baring her claws made sense in that situation (from the perspective Emma was in). Emma had no right to decide what was right or wrong for the adoptive mother to do with Henry 10+ years after the fact since he was no longer her son--and Regina was hardly Mommie Dearest. As for the latter, I think it was a completely understandable human reaction to ask Emma to save a man if she could. If instead it had been Snow asking her to save Charming, for instance, would it still be considered "a terrible thing"?

You're right that Regina/Rumpel/misc. villains should've been "put down," but they weren't for plot reasons (family relationships/Snow's strange morality and connection to Regina/inability to kill him in Rumpel's case, mostly) and for better or worse Regina has been given an arc of struggling to slowly reform over time. Not to mention, unlike Rumpel, most of her problems seem to tie into some degree of insanity/sociopathy, where she would be more deserving of being in an asylum, imo. I have much less sympathy for Rumpel, even if he did have the extra sway of the Darkness to deal with.

[Camera One]

Replying in Emma's thread.

[KingOfHearts]

It's difficult to rewatch this show because it depends on surprise and shock to keep the audience engaged. The character moments are so few and far between that you only need to see certain scenes to relive them. You don't need to watch an entire episode to get the gist. Since the characters all seem to be on separate tracks in the story, you can pick which ones you're interested in and fast forward through the rest. As I've said before, that's probably a major reason the fandom is so divided. 

I'm trying to rewatch S5, but it's so boring. It's understandable that after knowing what happens the amount of tension drops. However, the episodes themselves don't hold up very well. They're not entertaining on their own.

Edited July 21, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

There are a lot of shows and movies I never rewatch, even if they were fine the first time around.  For me, generally, rewatching tends to be most rewarding during:
- emotionally moving or emotionally tense moments, usually in quieter conversations between characters, and generally generating emotional payoff
- romantic moments
- funny moments
- exciting adventures you want to relive

With this show, the emotionally moving moments are very rare because they rarely slow down enough to have quality conversations.  For romantic moments, if you're not a fan of CS, those scenes will just come out neutral (I'm not sure any of the other couples get sustained positive moments).  Funny moments on this show are generally one-liners, but they are sporadic.  The so-called "adventures" are not enjoying to re-live for the most parts, because they are repetitive or laborious and uninspired (Arthur and David walking to get a mushroom), or the characters just get tricked or strung along (this is 80% of the plots, which are simply frustrating to watch), or everything's just a moot point anyway (so on second watch, you're aware it's pointless).  A lot of the conversations are just characters asking each other questions, so someone can give further exposition.  For example, on rewatch, the entire Dark Swan in Storybrooke current-day subplot is utterly pointless, and even the flashbacks in Camelot was ultimately an exercise in futility.  

Edited July 22, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I'd add to the reasons for rewatching:

When later events or revelations give you a new perspective on past events -- a lot of season one works for this because you get a different perspective knowing that Rumple has been manipulating everything all along to get the curse cast so he can find his son. It's also fun to look at "Snow Falls" again after seeing "The Shepherd," when you know what's really going on with Charming, and then you get an even more different perspective later in the season when we learn what's really going on with Abigail and that she's actually not the haughty bitch she seems in "Snow Falls." I find it kind of amusing rewatching some of season 2 with the knowledge that Hook and Emma will end up falling in love.

But there can also be a negative effect if the resolution undermines what happened before. There's no point in rewatching most of season 4 when you know that Regina will have a big epiphany about writing her own happy ending (after getting Robin back) and that there will be no real payoff or consequences. I imagine season 4 will get even harder to rewatch after Robin's death when you know that all of Regina's whining about losing him and effort to get a happy ending will turn out to be for nothing. And it's hard to watch all the buildup of the Rumple hat storyline in 4A when you know that there's no payoff at all for the Checkhov's Arsenal of things they set up.

Another reason to rewatch is to go back and see how a twist was set up -- seeing if you can spot the clues that were there all along. That's one thing 5A might have going for it, since there were some hints from the start that something was up with Hook, and they were fairly cleverly hidden. Otherwise, though, that's where this show usually fails, since most of the twists come out of thin air, so there's no setup to watch for, only things that contradict the later twist. It gives the sense that they're making it up as they go, with no real plan, and that means you really can't rewatch without spotting all the retcons. Take the "Marian was Zelena all along!" plot -- it only works if you don't rewatch 4A to notice stuff like them being able to remove "Marian's" heart (which Zelena claims later can't be done), "Marian's" heart apparently being under a glamour even while she's unconscious, "Marian" knowing details about the real Marian's life, "Marian" praising Regina with a perfectly straight face and no witnesses, "Marian" succumbing to the freezing spell without dropping character to use her magical powers to maybe save her own life, etc.

[Camera One]

The slightly painful part about Season 1 rewatching is that you remember all the things you were hoping would happen, but they didn't.  I've been watching some isolated scenes, like the Emma-Mary Margaret scene near the end of "True North".  Can't believe they talked for 2 minutes.  And then you see Mary Margaret drawn to Emma's blanket, and I remember hoping and looking forward to the possibility that we might eventually see her memories triggered bit by bit, but that never happened.  Still, the emotional payoff of the conversation itself is still there... still so heartbreaking.  

Even the Emma-Regina scenes have a real snap to them, maybe because of their real-world quality, with a crackling chemistry between protagonist and antagonist.  This just wasn't there with the likes of Arthur acting like a maniac or Hades' wishy-washyness.  

Edited July 22, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

Strangely, I find 2A the most fun to rewatch. It's got its problems, so it's not quite as depressing as season one in the sense of "what happened to this show?" but it's better than my first impression of it, when I was just disappointed that they weren't doing the kind of follow-up to season one that I wanted. If you just watch this arc, the current treatment of Regina isn't too bad because she was actually trying to be good and had some self awareness. It's fun watching the early Hook and Emma interactions, knowing where they are now. They actually do fun fairy-tale adventures, mixing up the princesses from various stories, and even in the Storybrooke plot, they do a little bit of the kind of culture clashing I wish they did more of. There's probably more of what I wish this show could be as a follow-up to what was established in season one in 2A than in any arc since then. It wasn't all that I wanted it to be at the time, but I didn't realize then how much worse it could get.

[Camera One]

I liked 2A the first time around.  Though looking back, it's the first case of new recurring characters (Aurora/Philip/Mulan) brought in, who are dropped in the second half and then resolved off-screen and then concluded in a single scene at the end of the season.  No one thought it might be fun to see their epic rescue?  Meanwhile, the two villains Cora and Hook lasted the entire season, both getting multiple episodes with a redemption at the end.  

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

The slightly painful part about Season 1 rewatching is that you remember all the things you were hoping would happen, but they didn't.  I've been watching some isolated scenes, like the Emma-Mary Margaret scene near the end of "True North".  Can't believe they talked for 2 minutes.  And then you see Mary Margaret drawn to Emma's blanket, and I remember hoping and looking forward to the possibility that we might eventually see her memories triggered bit by bit, but that never happened.  Still, the emotional payoff of the conversation itself is still there... still so heartbreaking.  

Even the Emma-Regina scenes have a real snap to them, maybe because of their real-world quality, with a crackling chemistry between protagonist and antagonist.  This just wasn't there with the likes of Arthur acting like a maniac or Hades' wishy-washyness.  

I loved watching Emma and Mary Margaret's friendship in season one, the beginning of it when they met and Mary Margaret bailing Emma out of jail, their talk over cookies in episode two, the one you mentioned in True North and so many more good moments. It was fun watching it because they didn't know they were mother and daughter but we did and couldn't wait for them to find out. Those moments keep me from bailing even as it becomes more clear that we'll never get scenes like those again. Or they'll never get off the Woegina train.     

[Rumsy4]

Here's a gem from the Comic Con panel. Someone asked A&E about Robin's soul being obliterated. Adam prevaricated about that saying it was Hades who claimed the soul would be obliterated and people could "Choose not to believe Hades." 

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Here's a gem from the Comic Con panel. Someone asked A&E about Robin's soul being obliterated. Adam prevaricated about that saying it was Hades who claimed the soul would be obliterated and people could "Choose not to believe Hades." 

Oh boy, so basically the "unreliable narrator" can be used to explain anything, since nothing is for certain and everything can be later changed.

This basically tells the audience that ANYTHING they hear or see on the show should be taken with a grain of salt.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Here's a gem from the Comic Con panel. Someone asked A&E about Robin's soul being obliterated. Adam prevaricated about that saying it was Hades who claimed the soul would be obliterated and people could "Choose not to believe Hades." 

Rebecca Mader was asked once around 4A if Zelena could ever come back on the show. She answered something along the lines of, "On this show, anything is possible." A&E have the power to reverse or change anything. While I understand it's their universe and they can do whatever they want, the idea that Hades was possibly lying is lame reasoning. He had zero motive to lie. If it didn't obliterate the soul, why use the Olympian Crystal at all? Couldn't he just crack their necks like he did with Arthur? Also, wouldn't Zeus be aware that his brother was still alive?

On a side note, Hades was an idiot for revealing the only thing that could kill him.

Edited July 23, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Here's a gem from the Comic Con panel. Someone asked A&E about Robin's soul being obliterated. Adam prevaricated about that saying it was Hades who claimed the soul would be obliterated and people could "Choose not to believe Hades." 

The whole thing was kind of stupid. Why even go there, reopen that can of worms? 

[Shanna Marie]

An unreliable character can be an interesting storytelling tool, but it has to be done for a purpose, it needs to be set up, and there needs to be payoff. It needs to be important to the plot that this particular character was lying about something. It needs to be the character deliberately being duplicitous in a way that affects other characters and has consequences if they believed him. It can't just be a case of "eh, you can't believe a word that guy says." Since there was actually a body, it's not like Robin was transported somewhere else and is frantically making his way back to Regina, even as Regina has taken Hades at his word and moved on. So why not just say, "Yeah, I'm afraid that's what happened," when asked that question? If you wrote it, own it. If you can't bear to face fans and admit that what you wrote is what happened, then don't write it that way.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

An unreliable character can be an interesting storytelling tool, but it has to be done for a purpose, it needs to be set up, and there needs to be payoff. It needs to be important to the plot that this particular character was lying about something. It needs to be the character deliberately being duplicitous in a way that affects other characters and has consequences if they believed him. 

*cough* Rumple *cough*

[Camera One]

I remember being really frustrated by the Katherine murder setup in Season 1, but watching some of the clips, at least it led to scenes which were really heartfelt and moving.  The scene between Emma and Mary Margaret at the end of "Hat Trick" when Emma asked Mary Margaret to believe in her.  It was so easy to believe in the bond between them.  I don't feel like Snow's scenes with Regina can hold a candle.

Watching the scenes with Mary Margaret and David when Katherine was missing and when he found out about the box and also later when he tried to apologize to Mary Margaret for not believing in him... I feel like I haven't seen Josh Dallas acting since then.  Not even the Dreamshade stuff in Season 3 reached the heights of the emotions we saw back in the first season.  

So it seems to me that a bad storyline could lead to good scenes.  But in more recent examples, bad storylines (eg. egg-napping) I feel did not actually lead to any good scenes.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I feel like I haven't seen Josh Dallas acting since then. Not even the Dreamshade stuff in Season 3 reached the heights of the emotions we saw back in the first season. So it seems to me that a bad storyline could lead to good scenes. But in more recent examples, bad storylines (eg. egg-napping) I feel did not actually lead to any good scenes.

They claim this is an "ensemble" show with no particular main characters, but now it's basically only about two main characters and a lot of supporting characters. Do they even have enough juicy footage of Charming to create a sizzle reel for his character like they did with Regina at Comic-Con? Probably not. I don't even know what Snow's sizzle reel would look like at the moment. It would probably be really epic for the first few seasons, and then you'd notice a huge drop-off in the quality of storylines given to her after Season 3.

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

I remember being really frustrated by the Katherine murder setup in Season 1, but watching some of the clips, at least it led to scenes which were really heartfelt and moving.

I don't think that storyline was really all that bad. It was meant to be frustrating because it was "audience superior" storytelling -- we had information the characters weren't privy to. We knew that Regina was really the Evil Queen and had set up the whole situation to torment Snow White. But Snow thought she was Mary Margaret and didn't know why Regina hated her, David was confused because his identity didn't seem to fit at all, and Emma couldn't believe what Henry told her and was functioning as though she was dealing with a normal case without realizing that Regina had the deck stacked entirely in her favor. They didn't stand a chance of prevailing when they had no idea what they were up against. It was hard to watch, but it was pretty well done.

What's really hard is for me to accept the current view of Regina and her relationship with her victims after watching that. She wasn't the Evil Queen then. She was Regina Mills. This was a short time ago, not distant past. And Regina was willing to send a woman who had no idea what she'd done and who apologized anyway to her death, and was willing to kill someone who really thought she was her friend in order to arrange it. I hate how all this has been forgotten, and I cringe every time they talk about what great friends Regina and Emma are when I think about Kathryn, who really thought Regina was her friend. It was wonderful villain writing, but it's hard to reconcile it with the current hero stuff when Snow has apologized to Regina far more than Regina's ever apologized to her.

I think one reason this storyline worked was that it was built on genuine emotion, and the characters were reacting in believable, genuine ways to their circumstances. That also probably made it easier to act. Now they're having to act in ways that no one really would.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I think one reason this storyline worked was that it was built on genuine emotion, and the characters were reacting in believable, genuine ways to their circumstances. That also probably made it easier to act. Now they're having to act in ways that no one really would.

It's very odd that some of the most organic and genuine emotions from this show occurred under fake personalities. They were more "real" than what was supposed to be actually real. Even with Regina Mills, I thought S1 did a good job of exploring her psyche while also giving a facade. 

Edited July 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

22 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's very odd that some of the most organic and genuine emotions from this show occurred under fake personalities.

That probably has to do with the fact that because it was all fake, they couldn't do plot, plot, plot in the present day. They thought they were living ordinary lives in an ordinary town rather than going up against some magical supervillain. So they could hang out at home and chat without any angst about needing to save the world. There was still a magical (well, sort of) supervillain, but they didn't know that. They thought she was just an ordinary bitch with issues. They were trying to do stuff like stopping kids from being put into foster care, saving the town festival, running for sheriff, etc. It only escalated into more overt plot when Regina started getting desperate and was doing more obvious stuff, like framing Mary Margaret. And because they didn't know they were supposed to be heroes, they were allowed to have genuine human reactions to what they were going through. They could get sad and they could be angry at Regina.

Once the characters became self aware, they knew they were heroes and therefore they had to be saving the world constantly, and the parade of villains started coming through town. At the same time, the Regina victimization started, so they were no longer having genuine emotional responses. They can't be sad at the results of anything Regina did to them, they can't be mad at her, they have to coddle her precious feelings, and they have to act like they're best friends with her, in spite of what she did to them and in spite of the way she continues to treat them. It's the friendship that's really pushed things too far. She'd have been fine as the frenemy they have to work with if they want to defeat the big bad (like 3A) and would prefer to avoid otherwise. Them trying to act like they're friends with her comes across as very artificial.

[KAOS Agent]

Does anyone ever wonder why Regina would be interested in being friends with them? I mean she spent all that time trying to kill Snow for what she considered valid reasons. Wouldn't hanging out with her just be a reminder of everything from Daniel to her days as the Evil Queen? Regina seems openly contemptuous of Emma and her lack of refinement and casual lifestyle. Wouldn't she be happier hanging with Maleficent or someone like that with whom she shares some similar interests? What do these people even talk about when they aren't battling the latest monster? 

[Curio]

8 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

They can't be sad at the results of anything Regina did to them, they can't be mad at her, they have to coddle her precious feelings, and they have to act like they're best friends with her, in spite of what she did to them and in spite of the way she continues to treat them. It's the friendship that's really pushed things too far. She'd have been fine as the frenemy they have to work with if they want to defeat the big bad (like 3A) and would prefer to avoid otherwise. Them trying to act like they're friends with her comes across as very artificial.

6 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Does anyone ever wonder why Regina would be interested in being friends with them? I mean she spent all that time trying to kill Snow for what she considered valid reasons. Wouldn't hanging out with her just be a reminder of everything from Daniel to her days as the Evil Queen? Regina seems openly contemptuous of Emma and her lack of refinement and casual lifestyle. Wouldn't she be happier hanging with Maleficent or someone like that with whom she shares some similar interests?

Does anyone else get the vibe that Jen doesn't even buy into the "friendship"? It almost seems as if she has to toe the line and robotically say, "Yes, Regina and Emma are best friends." Look at her body language when the discussion comes up at Comic Con:

   

I'm not a body language expert or anything, but not making much eye contact and placing a hand in front of the mouth tend to be things someone does when they're not totally buying into something. And when you compare those reactions to how Jen enthusiastically reacts to things she's actually passionate about, like this or this, it's telling. Maybe this should go in the fandom thread instead, but I don't think these moments are cherry-picked, either. It's a trend I've noticed, going back to Jen getting frustrated with the journalist last year who tried to make Emma's sacrifice all about Regina. It just makes me curious to know if there's anything going on behind the scenes we don't know about.

[Shanna Marie]

9 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Does anyone ever wonder why Regina would be interested in being friends with them? I mean she spent all that time trying to kill Snow for what she considered valid reasons. Wouldn't hanging out with her just be a reminder of everything from Daniel to her days as the Evil Queen? Regina seems openly contemptuous of Emma and her lack of refinement and casual lifestyle. Wouldn't she be happier hanging with Maleficent or someone like that with whom she shares some similar interests? What do these people even talk about when they aren't battling the latest monster? 

That is the other side of the equation that's equally baffling. Regina has never apologized to Snow or admitted that she was wrong in going after her when it was Cora who killed Daniel, which suggests that Regina still believes she was right. So why would she want to hang out and be friends with someone she believes was a monster who can't keep secrets and is unreliable and untrustworthy, and who caused the death of her love? Why would she want to be friends with the person she still claims shut her out of being able to have a good relationship with her husband because he was too focused on his daughter? As for Emma, they keep using the term "best friends," but I don't think it means what they think it means because there needs to be some foundation for a friendship. Emma and Regina have nothing in common but Henry, and even there they have very different relationships with him, so it's not even like the three of them can hang out together. Regina has no respect for the way Emma lives her life and sneers at the things she likes to do. She can't even stand the food Emma likes to eat. They are good allies, and they have reached a point where they will back each other up, but it's hard to call that a friendship, and it's definitely not "best friends."

[Curio]

10 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

As for Emma, they keep using the term "best friends," but I don't think it means what they think it means because there needs to be some foundation for a friendship. Emma and Regina have nothing in common but Henry, and even there they have very different relationships with him, so it's not even like the three of them can hang out together. Regina has no respect for the way Emma lives her life and sneers at the things she likes to do. She can't even stand the food Emma likes to eat. They are good allies, and they have reached a point where they will back each other up, but it's hard to call that a friendship, and it's definitely not "best friends."

"Living in Storybrooke, I've got my son and my parents, and I love them. But they can't always understand me. They don't know what it feels like to be rejected and misunderstood. Not the way I do, not the way you do. And somehow that makes us...I don't know...unique, or maybe even special. I wasn't looking for you to assuage my guilt. I was just looking for you to be my friend."

I still don't understand this speech, or that entire episode, but whatever. Basically, the writers bank their entire "friendship" on the fact that they both have magic. But Maleficent also has magic, so why isn't Regina BFFs with her instead? They have more history together, actually seemed to like each other in the past, and have much more in common in the present. I'd even say Snow is closer to being Regina's best friend than Emma is. Maybe it's a case where Emma is Regina's best friend, but not necessarily vice versa. If I were to think of the best friends on this show, it would probably go like:

• Snow's best friend is Charming.
• Charming's best friend is Snow.
• Emma's best friend is Killian.
• Killian's best friend is Emma.
• Regina's best friend is Snow, followed closely by Henry and Emma, and now maybe Zelena.
• Henry's best friend is Regina, followed closely by Emma or Violet.
• Zelena's best friend is Regina.
• Rumple's best friend is Belle.
• Belle's best friend is Rumple.

[KAOS Agent]

3 hours ago, Curio said:

Does anyone else get the vibe that Jen doesn't even buy into the "friendship"? It almost seems as if she has to toe the line and robotically say, "Yes, Regina and Emma are best friends." Look at her body language when the discussion comes up at Comic Con:

It seemed like there was a chill between Lana and Jen in general. I'm not sure it's so much with Jen's opinion of Emma's story, but I think she's over all the drama of the fandom and isn't remotely interested in feeding into it. But if we're talking reactions and since this is the All Seasons thread, watch Jen's reaction to Lana saying Season 1 was the darkest. Does anyone believe that? In Season 5, they went to hell! Hook was visibly tortured and bloodied. Emma was psychologically tortured and forced to kill Hook. Zelena killed her True Love. Robin's soul was obliterated. Others were thrown into the River of Lost Souls.  In Season 1, people were finding their inner strength and working towards their happy endings almost every week. We got fun fairy tale mash ups and adventure, not the doom and gloom and Darkness this show has been under since 4B. I miss that S1 fun vibe. At least the characters were allowed to be happy every once in a while. If S1 had been as dark as the show has been for the last few seasons, I wouldn't have continued watching past the first couple of episodes.

Edited July 26, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[YaddaYadda]

Different people, different strokes, I guess. I think Lana was thinking of her character more than the show in general. In season 1, Regina crushed her father's heart to enact the curse, she murdered Graham, among other vile things.

But yeah, season 5 was definitely dark and heavy, both arcs were dark. 

[KAOS Agent]

19 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Different people, different strokes, I guess. I think Lana was thinking of her character more than the show in general. In season 1, Regina crushed her father's heart to enact the curse, she murdered Graham, among other vile things.

I guess, but even there the Evil Queen wasn't the raging psychopath they made her in later seasons. The S1 Evil Queen had one goal and it was to get revenge on Snow. There was a lot of collateral damage, but the actions were all connected to Snow and/or retaining the status quo of the curse. Later seasons had her slaughtering villages and reveling in the carnage and murdering randoms because she's having a bad day. A villain with a complex backstory and motive for their actions can still be horrible even if we understand the why of it, but it's not as dark as the indiscriminate slaughter of innocents. And according to interviews, that Evil Queen had a conscience. Apparently, she would have drawn a line somewhere? What do they think that line would have been? She killed children. She attempted to murder an innocent newborn.  I don't even know what to think about this new idea of a conscienceless Evil Queen. Maybe now she'll be open to killing puppies and kittens?

[Curio]

I can kind of see how Season 1 is the darkest if Lana is looking at it only through Regina's eyes. That's the season where literally every character hates her. There seemed to be a more adult, serious tone to Season 1 that dealt with things like adultery and brainwashing a child. Later seasons do dark things too, but they brush the issues under the rug more. (Like Zelena's situation with Robin.) I think the fact that Henry was so adamantly against Regina in Season 1 alters the way Lana views that season, since pretty much every season after that, Henry was much less harsh towards her.

But objectively speaking from an entire-character, entire-season view, Season 5 was probably the darkest. I feel like there's a reason they're going back to the "Season 1" formula for Season 6, and that's because we need a break from all the angst.

On another note, I'm disappointed that Adam & Eddy basically shot down the idea of traveling to new lands in Season 6. I was really looking forward to the possibility of seeing the gang run around Agrabah. It's just not the same when you watch characters you don't know interact in a new environment or if it's a flashback. 

Edited July 26, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

17 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

And according to interviews, that Evil Queen had a conscience. Apparently, she would have drawn a line somewhere? What do they think that line would have been? She killed children. She attempted to murder an innocent newborn.  I don't even know what to think about this new idea of a conscienceless Evil Queen. Maybe now she'll be open to killing puppies and kittens?

I'm having a really difficult time with this whole thing. Regina is the EQ's conscience, but has done terrible things. When the split happens, the EQ goes on about how disappointed she is in Regina because she's become weak which makes everything hella confusing.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I can kind of see how Season 1 is the darkest if Lana is looking at it only through Regina's eyes. That's the season where literally every character hates her. There seemed to be a more adult, serious tone to Season 1 that dealt with things like adultery and brainwashing a child. Later seasons do dark things too, but they brush the issues under the rug more. (Like Zelena's situation with Robin.) I think the fact that Henry was so adamantly against Regina in Season 1 alters the way Lana views that season, since pretty much every season after that, Henry was much less harsh towards her.

I can see Season 1 being considered dark. It's not as cartoony in most places and addresses real issues. It was more open to addressing the seriousness of things like rape and murder. The characters actually had consequences and we saw them experience pain for more than five seconds. So anything dark or adult held more weight. I don't think Regina was the only dark aspect, either. Rumple and Jefferson had their own grim moments too.

It's difficult to gauge darkness because some things were intended to be dark (4B) but ended up being cheesy or boring. That being said, S5 reigns supreme in the bleakness department.

Edited July 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Quote

I'd even say Snow is closer to being Regina's best friend than Emma is. Maybe it's a case where Emma is Regina's best friend, but not necessarily vice versa.

I found it easier to believe that Regina could possibly become friends with Emma much more than the trajectory of Snow being Regina's best friend.  Albeit the Regina/Emma friendship (not BFF-level) was a possibility BEFORE Emma got to see The Evil Queen at work and burning her mother up at the stake.  After all, Emma was willing to have Hook as a love interest despite his past crimes and murders.  

The Snow/Regina friendship felt to me fully predicated on Snow being a complete idiot.  Whatever Snow's feelings for Regina as a younger girl, the murder of her father and the repeated attempts on her life, Charming's life and other innocent subjects' lives, all without any apology, just cannot believably justify a BFF-level relationship without huge and sustained levels of repair.

Clearly, A&E sees Regina/Emma and Regina/Snow as core relationship that deserve multiple significant heart-to-heart scenes per season (compared to Snowing and Emma generally getting a single scene).  But these two relationships are among the weakest the writers have written.  I think the writers have been "better" at writing love stories than friendship, and that's really saying something.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I can see Season 1 being considered dark. It's not as cartoony in most places and addresses real issues. It was more open to addressing the seriousness of things like rape and murder. The characters actually had consequences and we saw them experience pain for more than five seconds. So anything dark or adult held more weight.

I think that's exactly it. In season one, it felt like these were real people dealing with real problems in a somewhat realistic manner. Graham seemed truly traumatized as he slowly became conscious of the fact that he didn't really want to sleep with Regina, but something kept drawing him back there, and he hated himself for it. We never saw a similar trauma from Robin's realization that he'd been sleeping with -- and had even impregnated -- the woman who murdered his wife. We really saw the aftermath of Graham's death, with Emma's heartbreak and Henry being so freaked out that he refused to have anything to do with Emma, for fear Regina would kill her, too. In season five, even though they showed all kinds of horrible stuff happening to Hook, he may as well have had a piano dropped on his head that made him stagger around making accordion sounds while his body was all scrunched up before being totally back to normal in the next scene. We never felt the impact of his death enough to appreciate him coming back to life, and at least so far, nothing about him seems to have been changed by the experience.

[Delphi]

I actually put on season 1 the past weekend for background noise as I worked on a project,  it's pretty much the only season I can rewatch.   Either way,  my boyfriend, who hates this show with a passion ended up watching and it took him awhile to figure out that it was the same show.  He enjoyed the hell out of it and ended up binging the entire season.   After it was over he asked what happened because he thought the season was much more realistic and darker than any of the new episodes from the past two seasons that he's seen me watch.  So yeah,  I can see Lana thinking that season 1 was darker.   There were actual stakes and consequences for everything,  we don't really get that anymore. 

[Curio]

17 minutes ago, Delphi said:

I can see Lana thinking that season 1 was darker. There were actual stakes and consequences for everything, we don't really get that anymore. 

I think it's a combination of that, but also the fact that the main characters were actually allowed to get angry with each other and react in human ways. Now that Regina, Snow, Charming, Emma, Hook, Henry, and Belle are one big happy family, the drama decreases. No one is allowed to be angry with Regina. When Emma is angry with Snow, it's over a stupid retconned egg baby. Everyone knows Hook is too popular to kill off, so you knew he wasn't going to remain a Dark One forever or stay dead for too long. Some of the most significant and darkest dramatic moments in Season 1 came from the conflict between Emma and Regina, and now that they're supposedly "best friends," a lot of the stakes from Season 1 have vanished. Even Rumple gets off the hook for killing Milah a second time. Its so frustrating that the show is afraid of addressing the biggest dramatic elephants in the room.

[KAOS Agent]

On 7/27/2016 at 9:23 AM, Curio said:

Some of the most significant and darkest dramatic moments in Season 1 came from the conflict between Emma and Regina, and now that they're supposedly "best friends," a lot of the stakes from Season 1 have vanished. Even Rumple gets off the hook for killing Milah a second time. Its so frustrating that the show is afraid of addressing the biggest dramatic elephants in the room.

I think it's about your definition of dark. To me, the lack of justice or follow through and the lack of joy or "wins" for good people is what makes things dark to me. Season 1 had very dark topics, but they were also mitigated by good things happening. Hansel & Gretel were reunited with their father, Ashley & her boyfriend had a baby and got engaged, Ruby & Granny realized how important they were to each other and reconciled. Even the mains were given moments of peace and normalcy. Snow went out with the girls for drinks. Emma had basic conversations about life with Snow and they bonded. It felt like even though there was a bunch of bad stuff going on in the main plot, the characters were still living their lives and able to enjoy the little things. I also believed that things would turn out okay.

Compare that with S5 where Emma had sacrificed herself and was mentally tortured, rejected by her family and had her boyfriend die for nothing. This happens while Rumpel regains all the Darkness and renders Emma (and Hook's) sacrifice moot, then he murders his wife again and walks away from the whole baby contract with no repercussions. There's nothing there to suggest that doing the right thing will result in anything other than pain and suffering, while being bad has no consequences. Robin gets raped and his entire story is ignored in favor of his rapist and his girlfriend who bond over a few hours they played together as children and then he has his soul obliterated while his rapist and wife's murderer says a sweet goodbye to his orphaned son promising to visit soon. That's dark to me. I don't feel like things will be okay. The only negative consequences fall on people who are trying to do the right thing.  

[Rumsy4]

And people like Cora get redeemed.