A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Camera One]

My point, really, was just that there was no guarantee that Emma's life would have been perfect and peachy-keen if she hadn't just been sent through the wardrobe alone.

I think almost everyone would agree Emma and Snow's life would be negatively affected no matter what. It's just an interesting thought exercise to discuss the possibilities.

 

I don't think it would've been all that dire for Snow and Emma. Snow would just have to be quick on the uptake (which Season 1 Snow was) and tread carefully. She couldn't go around talking about magic curses and evil witches which I think if she was circumspect she'd figure out.

She would have had to rely on charity for awhile. But I think Snow would have been able to adapt and get a job eventually, though it would have been a tough life as a single mother nothing to her name. Even if Snow introduced the idea of Snow White at a young age and Emma "believed", it would really be a hard sell once Emma became a teenager, and after all, there was no "proof" as far as Emma could see. So the situation was still pretty hopeless.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Camera One

[FabulousTater]

Even if Snow introduced the idea of Snow White at a young age and Emma "believed", it would really be a hard sell once Emma became a teenager, and after all, there was no "proof" as far as Emma could see.

Well, Emma does have magic. Since Emma's magic is based on love and emotions, being raised by Snow, a loving mother, then it's entirely possible that Emma would've manifested her magical abilities early and Snow would've recognized it for what it was. Snow could've easily used that as proof for Emma to believe.

 

Emma's life as an unloved orphan and constant abandonment by others made her a disbeliever in magic and hope and happy endings and therefore difficult to convince her that magic existed.

Edited July 1, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Shanna Marie]

I wonder if Regina would have left Snow and Emma alone if Snow had escaped the curse. Regina magically blotted out the knowledge that Henry's mother was likely Snow's daughter and otherwise did nothing, perhaps because of the knowledge that she couldn't kill her once the curse was set (when did she learn that?) and because the fact that Emma gave up a baby she gave birth to in jail after a life in foster care was a good sign that Emma wasn't dangerously happy and loved. But if Snow escaped the curse designed to ruin Snow's life, Regina likely would have taken action of some sort. She was able to leave Storybrooke, since she traveled to pick up Henry. If she got to Storybrooke and Snow wasn't there, what would Regina have done? Probably not just let things run along in Groundhog Day mode for 28 years while Snow and Emma were having a peaceful life with much-loved Emma discovering her love magic that would one day break the curse. She would have found a way to ruin Snow's life anyway, whether by having Snow killed or by doing something to ruin Snow's reputation so she couldn't work, or by having her arrested or having Emma taken away from her with a nasty call to Child Services.

[Camera One]

Emma's life as an unloved orphan and constant abandonment by others made her a disbeliever in magic and hope and happy endings and therefore difficult to convince her that magic existed.

Replying in Emma thread.

 

I wonder if Regina would have left Snow and Emma alone if Snow had escaped the curse. But if Snow escaped the curse designed to ruin Snow's life, Regina likely would have taken action of some sort. She was able to leave Storybrooke, since she traveled to pick up Henry. If she got to Storybrooke and Snow wasn't there, what would Regina have done? She would have found a way to ruin Snow's life anyway, whether by having Snow killed or by doing something to ruin Snow's reputation so she couldn't work, or by having her arrested or having Emma taken away from her with a nasty call to Child Services.

Oh for sure she would have been furious and the drive for revenge would have continued. The whole adopting Henry scenario wouldn't have happened, since that was solely because she was bored, and this was after she already saw Snow getting her "just desserts". The scene where Regina burst into the castle, if she saw the empty tree and Snow nowhere to be found would have been an utter waste of her sacrifice of her father. And she would blame Snow for that too.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Camera One

[legaleagle53]

And, of course, there's the probability that Henry might never have been born at all, since Emma wouldn't have met Neal on the streets as a runaway if Snow had been around to raise her.

[Rumsy4]

I wonder if Regina would have left Snow and Emma alone if Snow had escaped the curse.

 

As Regina could leave Storybrooke anytime she wanted, she would have made it her life's work to find Snow White and Emma, and kill them (would it break the Curse if Emma wasn't in Storybrooke when she died?) or at least make like hell for them.

 

  

And, of course, there's the probability that Henry might never have been born at all, since Emma wouldn't have met Neal on the streets as a runaway if Snow had been around to raise her.

 

Don't tempt me, Frodo... 

Edited July 1, 2014 by Rumsy4

[FabulousTater]

And, of course, there's the probability that Henry might never have been born at all, since Emma wouldn't have met Neal on the streets as a runaway if Snow had been around to raise her.

The high probability of Emma not crossing paths with Douchefire AND Henry never existing just made this whole AU my favorite thing.

Edited July 1, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Shanna Marie]

And, of course, there's the probability that Henry might never have been born at all, since Emma wouldn't have met Neal on the streets as a runaway if Snow had been around to raise her.

Though if we're going for the concept that there are some things that fate just wants to happen, Emma still might have run away after a fight with her stressed-out single mother who harped on her about her responsibility as savior one too many times. Or, more likely, Regina would have found a way to take Snow out of the picture and separate her from her daughter (can't allow her even that much happiness), so Emma still would have ended up in foster care, and then on the streets.

 

I think we're doomed to Henry, no matter what. (Actually, I rather adore season one Henry. He just became annoying after he switched from "my mom is the Evil Queen!" to being the biggest Regina apologist and instituted the "we can't do anything mean to family members, even if they're evil and killing people" rule and otherwise generally lost all common sense and brainpower he had before.) But I would have loved it if a sisterly kiss between Emma and Mary Margaret, with Emma truly believing this was her mother and Mary Margaret loving her as a best friend she has inexplicably strong feelings for, had been what broke the memory part of the curse.

[FabulousTater]

I think we're doomed to Henry, no matter what.

I don't think so. Henry's whole purpose was as a plot device to get Emma to Storybrooke. If you want to subscribe to the "fate" theory, the only "fate" concerned was Emma's. She was "fated" to break the curse. And if Snow had come through with Emma there are certainly scenarios to get Emma to Storybrooke and breaking the curse without Henry existing. Not every teen who has an argument with their single stressed-out mom runs away and ends up pregnant. That's neither an absolute nor a likely result. And even if Regina finds Snow and manages to kill her, if Emma has knowledge of what Regina has done, that right there exists enough motive for Emma to hunt Regina down, and that gets Emma to Storybrooke and in position to break the curse.

 

ETA: I think a likely scenario is that Regina would just kidnap Snow and drag her back to Storybrooke rather than flat out killing her because Snow caged in a psych ward like Belle would've been too delicious for Regina to pass up. Snow would live knowing Emma was out there all alone. I bet Regina would come by once a week to rub that in somehow. And if Emma had any memory of Snow she would've stopped at nothing trying to find out what happened to her mother if she had suddenly disappeared on her. That gets Emma to Storybrooke and a True Love kiss between mother and daughter breaks the curse.

Edited July 1, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Wandering1]

It's part of the global problem they've had with Emma since the end of S1: this is ostensibly her story, but in many ways, she's less and less relevant to the action.

 

(It's the same problem they ran into in Lost - Jack was supposed to be the central character, but as the story developed, and stronger, more compelling characters and stories came to the forefront, they really had to work to shoehorn him into relevance. Emma (and Jen) are, thank heavens, far less irritating to watch than Jack (and Matthew), but the issue remains.)   

 

Emma could have sat out all of S3 and the story would have been almost no different. Rumpel, Regina and Neal brought more to #SaveHenry than Emma and her crew. 3b was a straight-up battle between Regina and Zelena; virtually everything Emma-related was designed to get her into a relationship with Hook, under the thin fiction of her learning that her family was "home..." something she'd already pretty much concluded much more naturally in S2.

 

I don't think it's wrong, in an ensemble drama, for characters to take turns getting their place in the sun. S1 was an Emma showcase. S3 was primarily a Regina showcase. S2 was a little more unfocused, and that was one of its many problems - but I'd argue that it was a split between Rumpel and Snow.

 

What I do think is deeply wrong is to have the dialog say one thing and the narration the other. To have Emma referring to herself (and occasionally whinghing about) being The Savior; to have the Charmings and various townfolk being all "Save us, Emma Wan Kenobi, you're our only hope!"; to give Hook clunky "romantic" buck up, my little angel lines about how she was the one who saved them in Neverland and from Zelena, yadda yadda, without then showing her actually doing anything to move the main conflict forward is a form of cognitive dissonance I personally don't think I can take another season of. 

Awesome post. I have the same issues with Emma. I think her main storyline going forward will be her relationship with Hook.

[Rumsy4]

Speaking of Dark Curses, why did Rumple make Dark Curse 1 so complicated? Or was it all Regina's doing? Who decided that Dark Curse 1.0 would create a town that was a) Magic-less b) Frozen in time, and c) where everyone was magically roofied into false identities/memories, and d) a Failsafe Trigger? None of these clauses were associated with the Dark Curse 2.0 cast by Snowing/Regina. This means Curse 1.0 could have been cast the same way. All Rumple wanted to do was come to the Real World to find his son, and he had manipulated the situation enough by making Regina unable to harm Snow in the Enchanted Forest. There wouldn't even have been a need for losing his memories, or even for a savior.

 

From what Rumple said in 3.10 or 3.11, Pan's Curse was supposed to have been tailored to suit his purposes, as Regina's had been tailored to her specifications. The problem is, I don't see Regina not wanting to bring Magic over the first time, had she known she could. Now, I know that I am thinking retroactively here--Adam and Eddy came up with the Original Dark Curse, and then have subsequently cheapened it (IMO) by making it less potent and letting multiple people cast it. No wonder there are some people now confused about the nature of the First Curse as well. 

 

 

And how exactly is Emma, who isn't born when Zelena wants to cast the curse, going to break it?

 

Rumple needed a product of True Love to break the original Dark Curse he had made. Any True Love child (say Phillip and Aurora's baby) might have done the trick. However, he was able to simultaneously manipulate Regina, Snow, and Charming. He obtained the "DNA" of Snow and Charming so their child, who would be the product of True Love, could break his Curse. So he got the Curse Caster, and the parents of the Curse Breaker at the same time.

 

Even if Rumple had got Zelena to cast the Dark Curse for him back then (provided she had found someone she loved more than Rumple to sacrifice), Rumple would have still waited until he had made his True Love potion, and the True Love baby was in the offing before he handed over the Dark Curse to Zelena to Cast. 

Edited July 2, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Mari]

Speaking of Dark Curses, why did Rumple make Dark Curse 1 so complicated? Or was it all Regina's doing? Who decided that Dark Curse 1.0 would create a town that was a) Magic-less b) Frozen in time, and c) where everyone was magically roofied into false identities/memories, and d) a Failsafe Trigger? None of these clauses were associated with the Dark Curse 2.0 cast by Snowing/Regina. This means Curse 1.0 could have been cast the same way. All Rumple wanted to do was come to the Real World to find his son, and he had manipulated the situation enough by making Regina unable to harm Snow in the Enchanted Forest. There wouldn't even have been a need for losing his memories, or even for a savior.

 

From what Rumple said in 3.10 or 3.11, Pan's Curse was supposed to have been tailored to suit his purposes, as Regina's had been tailored to her specifications. The problem is, I don't see Regina not wanting to bring Magic over the first time, had she known she could. Now, I know that I am thinking retroactively here--Adam and Eddy came up with the Original Dark Curse, and then have subsequently cheapened it (IMO) by making it less potent and letting multiple people cast it. No wonder there are some people now confused about the nature of the First Curse as well. 

I've thought a little about this, and my personal fansplanation is that it's a combination of castor and intent, and the nature of curses.

 

Starting with frozen time:  I think that's simply a product of a lot of curses.  The original curse stuck time, and so have others--Rumple doesn't age, Frederick the Statue was unlikely to age, and in the original Sleeping Beauty (and therefore?, maybe?) Snow White, neither did people while under the sleeping curse.  When Emma, Hook, and Henry returned to Storybrooke, the clock tower said 8:15.  It's possible time had stopped for the second, Snow-cast curse, too.

 

I think some of the other things were because of Rumple's strong survival instincts. My current ideas:

 

Magic:   Rumple didn't want to be in a magic-filled town for 28 years while Regina had magic and memoryless him didn't have access to his own memories and skills.  (I wouldn't.  She's vindictive and not always good at seeing the logical consequences of her own actions.) 

False identities:  I think that goes back to the purpose of the dark curse.  The original dark curse was supposed to be a time/place where Regina got her happy ending, but no one else did.  The easiest way to do that would be to memory wipe them, and move them into new, miserable lives.  Basically, they were Regina (and Rumple's) meat puppets.  After all, people who had been of particular note to Regina and Rumple seemed to get extra-unpleasant lives, often in places where Regina could enjoy the view.

 

I think a certain amount of what happened is caused by the overall wishes of the person that actually cast it--and Regina wanted suffering.  Long-term suffering while she could watch and laugh.    In curse 2.0, they were just using it to build a bridge.  I think the only reason it ended up being Storybrooke instead of New Neighborhood in New York Next to Emma (apart from set costs) was because when Snow thinks of this world, she thinks Storybrooke.  It's the only place she's been.

 

I think original Storybrooke would've been much, much worse if Rumple hadn't built in safety clauses to temper it.

[Dani-Ellie]

From the Regina thread:

 

And as you pointed out, "It was built in by Rumpel", so obviously Rumple could have chosen someone else to break his curse.

 

But he didn't. He chose Emma. Emma was the only one who could break Dark Curse 1.0, no matter how it's sliced, because that's how Rumple created it. Would have and could have does not replace what actually happened. I also could say that Rumple could have held Zelena off and said she needed more training until he was ready for her to cast it, and Emma still would have been the savior. It's just as possible as the scenario that someone else could have been the savior if Zelena cast it.

[Wandering1]

From the Regina thread:

 

 

 

 

But he didn't. He chose Emma. Emma was the only one who could break Dark Curse 1.0, no matter how it's sliced, because that's how Rumple created it. Would have and could have does not replace what actually happened. I also could say that Rumple could have held Zelena off and said she needed more training until he was ready for her to cast it, and Emma still would have been the savior. It's just as possible as the scenario that someone else could have been the savior if Zelena cast it.

Your right, as season 1 showed us, Emma broke the curse. But as you pointed out, it was only because Rumple chose her. Ruby could have broken the curse if Rumple had wanted her too. That alone shows that Emma wasn't special. Anyone Rumple picked could have broken the curse. It makes her less of a savior and more of a pawn, in my opinion.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Wandering1

[Rumsy4]

As Ruby was not likely to be a product of True Love, it is unlikely she could have broken the Curse. Emma is a creation of the writers. Of course they could have written a hundred different characters to be the savior. But they chose to make her the savior, just as Rumple chose to take her parent's DNA to make the True Love potion. Emma is special because she is the product of True Love, and because Rumple made her the savior. I'm not even sure what we are arguing about here anymore, so I'm going to quit! :-p

[Dani-Ellie]

Rumple chose her because she was the product of True Love. Rumple chose her because she was special. Ruby couldn't have broken the curse because Ruby wasn't the product of True Love. (Not to say that her parents didn't love each other, but True Love seems to be a rare, more special thing.)

 

I actually loved that moment in "Queen of Hearts" when Gold told her why he chose her. (KAOS Agent quoted it in the Regina thread, if you're looking for the transcript) because Emma was feeling like she was a pawn, too, and he told her no, not at all. She wasn't special because she was the savior; she was the savior because she was special. I remember thinking at the time that that was likely the first time someone (who wasn't Henry) had ever told Emma she was special.

 

At this point, I'm done, too. I can't think of any more ways to argue canon, haha.

[Mari]

Rumple chose her because she was the product of True Love. Rumple chose her because she was special. Ruby couldn't have broken the curse because Ruby wasn't the product of True Love. (Not to say that her parents didn't love each other, but True Love seems to be a rare, more special thing.)

Not arguing either, because I just don't see a rational end to it any more.

 

I did, however, want to pick up on this point and go a different direction--I'm not sure that even all children whose parents are True Loves are considered True Love Children.

 

Cora was surprised when she tried to take Emma's heart and couldn't. If Emma's magic is because she is a True Love Child, and True Love children are what happens every time True Love Couples make a baby, I don't think she'd be surprised.  There are too many True Love couples for that to be so.

 

I know they're not the majority of couples, but we've got Abigail/Frederick (I think?), Aurora/Philip, Snow/David, Rumple/Belle--so they're not once every 1000 years uncommon, more only one or two per kingdom uncommon.

 

If every baby from 1-2 per kingdom for years and years were magical babies whose hearts couldn't be taken, I have trouble seeing a seasoned heart-taking enthusiast like Cora not having at least heard the rumor that all products of True Love have a safe heart. 

[Dani-Ellie]

That's a good point. Maybe Snow/Charming are the special True Love Couple because Rumple was able to bottle their love? Extending your point, Snow and Charming can't be the first True Love Couple whose love Rumple had tried to bottle in his 300 years. So not all True Love is magic, but maybe theirs is some sort of Higher True Love? True Love that's been tested more than normal, perhaps? "I will always find you," indeed.

 

And another question I just thought of is ... is baby Neal a True Love Baby? He should be ... unless there really is something unique about what makes Emma special that's not just her gene pool.

[Camera One]

** I think we posted at the same time, Dani-Ellie.  :)

 

The interesting thing is I don't think we've met a True Love Child as an adult other than Emma, who is shown as special.

 

The Aurora we know is supposed to be the daughter of the Original Aurora, so she should presumably be a true-love baby.  Yet why can't she do magic?  I mean, Zelena didn't even want her baby.  Why is that again?  

 

So it seems like Emma is extra extra special.  Next season, Glinda will tell us Emma is the product of True True Love, which is one grade higher than True Love.

 

 

 

And another question I just thought of is ... is baby Neal a True Love Baby? He should be ... unless there really is something unique about what makes Emma special that's not just her gene pool.

 

I don't know... Rumple and Milah didn't seem to be the True Love type.  Their love sure couldn't last and overcome obstacles.

 

 

 

Extending your point, Snow and Charming can't be the first True Love Couple whose love Rumple had tried to bottle in his 300 years.

 

Yeah, that is very strange that he needed Snow and Charming when presumably there are fairy tale matches all over the place.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Camera One

[Wandering1]

Not arguing either, because I just don't see a rational end to it any more.

 

I did, however, want to pick up on this point and go a different direction--I'm not sure that even all children whose parents are True Loves are considered True Love Children.

 

Cora was surprised when she tried to take Emma's heart and couldn't. If Emma's magic is because she is a True Love Child, and True Love children are what happens every time True Love Couples make a baby, I don't think she'd be surprised.  There are too many True Love couples for that to be so.

 

I know they're not the majority of couples, but we've got Abigail/Frederick (I think?), Aurora/Philip, Snow/David, Rumple/Belle--so they're not once every 1000 years uncommon, more only one or two per kingdom uncommon.

 

If every baby from 1-2 per kingdom for years and years were magical babies whose hearts couldn't be taken, I have trouble seeing a seasoned heart-taking enthusiast like Cora not having at least heard the rumor that all products of True Love have a safe heart. 

I don't think Rumple and Belle are true love. What exactly do they have in common with Snow / Charming, Aurora / Phillip or Abigail / Frederick? Doesn't true love have to be honest? Or is that optional? 

Ariel / Eric are True love. Ruby had a true love. Hook had a true love. It doesn't seem that rare. I think Cora's inability to take Emma's heart might have been tied to something else. Maybe because she was raised outside the Enchanted Forest.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Wandering1

[Dani-Ellie]

We totally did, Camera One!

 

I don't know... Rumple and Milah didn't seem to be the True Love type.  Their love sure couldn't last and overcome obstacles.

 

Eep, my apologies for not being clearer. I meant Baby Charming Neal. (See, show? This is what happens when you have two characters with the same name!) Baby Charming should follow in his sister's magical footsteps, unless there's something more to Emma's magic than just Snow and Charming being her parents.

[Mari]

Rumple and Belle are not true love. What exactly do they have in common with Snow / Charming, Aurora / Phillip or Abigail / Frederick? Doesn't true love have to be honest? Or is that optional? 

Ariel / Eric are True love. Ruby had a true love. Hook had a true love. It doesn't seem that rare. I think Cora's inability to take Emma's heart might have been tied to something else. Maybe because she was raised outside the Enchanted Forest.

According to Once canon, True Love is official when you are able to break curses with your kiss.  It doesn't mean you're a good hearted person, it apparently means that you have an overwhelming love for one specific person and that overwhelming love can break curses.  This has been stated in the show.

 

Rumple and Belle are on my list because their kiss almost broke Rumple's Dark One curse--the only reason it didn't is because Rumple didn't want to stop being the Dark One and pulled back from that kiss.

 

Eric and Ariel are not on the list because while they probably are True Loves, we haven't seen them break a curse with their kiss.

 

We don't know about Ruby or Hook, because we have never seen a curse-breaking kiss.  It doesn't mean they haven't loved people, it just means that we've yet to see relationships that have passed the curse test.

[Souris]

And another question I just thought of is ... is baby Neal a True Love Baby? He should be ... unless there really is something unique about what makes Emma special that's not just her gene pool.

 

He was, but then they named him Neal, and it just sucked the special right out of him. ;-)

 

Ruby had a true love. Hook had a true love.

 

They had loves. We don't know whether they were True Loves or just first loves. They've never been referred to on the show as True Loves. True Love seems a different category than your run-of-the-mill love.

[Mari]

Eep, my apologies for not being clearer. I meant Baby Charming Neal. (See, show? This is what happens when you have two characters with the same name!) Baby Charming should follow in his sister's magical footsteps, unless there's something more to Emma's magic than just Snow and Charming being her parents.

We could call the baby Nealflake.  (It would satisfy my petty side by giving baby do-over an annoying nickname and differentiate between the two.)

 

Anyone have a better idea?

[Camera One]

How about The Baby That Got Zapped With Electricity But No One Cares.

[Wandering1]

"Rumple and Belle are on my list because their kiss almost broke Rumple's Dark One curse--the only reason it didn't is because Rumple didn't want to stop being the Dark One and pulled back from that kiss." Doesn't this disqualify them? Rumple loved power more than Belle. We saw it in the finale. I like Rumple and Belle as a couple. But she is too enabling and he is too selfish for me to ever believe it is "True Love".

[Souris]

I will always refer to the baby as Snowflake.

[Mari]

Doesn't this disqualify them? Rumple loved power more than Belle. We saw it in the finale. I like Rumple and Belle as a couple. But she is too enabling and he is too selfish for me to ever believe it is "True Love".

 

I don't like them as a couple right now either, and find most of their relationship very creepy and very wrong, and personally I'd like the show to explore the "I walked away from this and that negated True Love."  They could do that with Rumple and Belle, and possibly with Regina/Robin.

 

But it doesn't change that by the show's own rules, Rumple and Belle are unfortunately True Loves.

[formerlyfreedom]

Hello, all!

 

Just a reminder about this topic; It is NOT intended to be the all purpose, discuss everything place. Please use it for comparing the various realms that the show has already been and wherever it goes in the future (for example, Storybrooke/The Enchanted Forest/Neverland/Oz). Relationships go over there in that topic.

 

We're getting into relationships discussion and a lot of other things. If you aren't able to disagree without attacking fellow posters, don't post here. And once you've made your point move on, don't keep restating it trying to change other people's opinions. We don't all have to have the same opinion on everything, so please...agree to disagree and move on.

[FabulousTater]

He was, but then they named him Neal, and it just sucked the special right out of him. ;-)

I'm laughing so hard at this right now! Points to you, Souris. :D

 

We could call the baby Nealflake.

Nealflake works, but I don't know why, it makes me think of dandruff. Ooh! We could call the baby Dandruff!

 

How about The Baby That Got Zapped With Electricity But No One Cares.

Heh, for my money it could be "Baby That No One Cares About" or even  "Baby Do Over", "BDO" for short.

[Crimson Belle]

I vote for Poor Unfortunate Namesake

[Camera One]

Brought over from another thread:

I would be more ok with the Frozen thing if they were coming out of a really strong season where they had really showed they could deal with canon character from other properties and compellingly fit them into the Onceverse.

 

But the twists on Neverland and Oz, on Pan and the WWW, were flawed in so many ways that even the interesting concepts they were clearly working off of simply didn't come through. Their execution was so bad that not only were the new villains muddled, their core characters had to be wrenched out of character to make it land where they wanted it to.

 

They can introduce as many new lands and characters and Disney proprieties as they want, but it's the still the same showrunners, still the same writers, still the same directors coming up with the stories...and a bunch of increasingly confused and checked-out actors trying to breathe life into characters that have steadily been turned into caricatures of their former selves. 

 

 

I agree with this.  With Neverland and Oz, they tried to pay homage to the original and of course "twist" the story for the surprise factor, while trying to force the characters of the show into that story, and in the process, they didn't do a good job with either.  

 

I suppose Neverland/Peter Pan even though it twisted the original tale into a pretzel was slightly better handled.  But really, beyond Skull Island, Lost Boys and a cameo from Tinkerbelle, we never even found out Peter Pan's dealings with Captain Hook or Tinkerbelle (he didn't even have a scene with the latter).  So were we supposed to assume that what happened in the original story happened or what?

 

With Oz, they tried to do a retelling of the story with the common elements of Dorothy, the shoes, Glinda and a pail of water, and it ended up being completely lame.  Plus the only main character whose character progressed from the Oz arc was Regina, creating the other problem of 3B.

[Shanna Marie]

I suppose Neverland/Peter Pan even though it twisted the original tale into a pretzel was slightly better handled.  But really, beyond Skull Island, Lost Boys and a cameo from Tinkerbelle, we never even found out Peter Pan's dealings with Captain Hook or Tinkerbelle (he didn't even have a scene with the latter).  So were we supposed to assume that what happened in the original story happened or what?

I think a lot of the problem there was a) the need to make everything All About Regina and Rumple and b) the need to make Everyone Related. That meant the actual characters from the Peter Pan story ended up being sidelined, with their Neverland backstories barely suggested. And I'm even kind of including Neal there, since he was there as a boy during Hook's time in Neverland, which makes him somewhat of a Lost Boy. Making Pan be Rumple's father meant he had to be the one to take him out, and that meant that Pan's traditional enemies and his twisted version enemies didn't have much to do in their own story world. I would love to have seen whether Tink ever was buddies with Pan and jealous of Wendy, for example. Or were she and Hook just off drinking rum together?

 

I got to "Dreamy" in my rewatch last night, and I still think it may be my least-favorite episode. For one thing, there's Amy Acker in Manic Nerdy Dream Girl Mode, which gets on my last nerve (I love her in some things, but there's this one mode she tends to get typecast in where she's so cute I want to kill her and forever silence her squeaky voice). Then we have Belle serving as expert on True Love (gag). But, really, this episode introduces some truly disturbing worldbuilding, giving us an entire race that's bred specifically for hard labor and not allowed to have any other aspect to their lives but work. Not to mention the fact that they're hatched from eggs fully grown (though at varying ages of adulthood) and clothed. Seriously, the fairies are breeding slaves to mine fairydust for them. It's like something out of a dystopian world, though in most dystopian stories, someone would realize the wrongness of this and there would be a fight for freedom from the oppressors. And then we have the town so intent on slut-shaming Mary Margaret that they're refusing to support the nuns (and these same people later apparently have no problem with Regina, the one who cursed them, aside from one minor angry mob incident -- though I suppose the slut-shaming could have been Regina's doing, since she still seemed to have a lot of control over people).

 

I did like Mary Margaret and Leroy's interaction and loved his solution to selling candles. For another mixing up the characters idea, since Leroy has his boat and wants to fix it up and go sailing, maybe Hook could help him with that. He knows boats and sailing. And just imagine the snark levels of the two of them working together.

[Camera One]

I did like Mary Margaret and Leroy's interaction and loved his solution to selling candles.

 

That was my favorite part of the episode.  

 

The backstory was a tad disturbing with overthinking but I'm sure the writers just wanted to create a situation of forbidden love.  I doubt they actually realized how it came off, which is not out of the ordinary for them.

[KingOfHearts]

Dreamy is on my list of least favorite episodes, mostly for the fairyback portion of it. The cheesiness of the dwarf eggs and the fairies was over-the-top corny to me. Some of the other fillers in S1 were enjoyable, though. True North pulled off the Hansel and Gretel story exponentially well, Price of Gold wasn't terrible, and Hat Trick was one of the best episodes of the season. Dreamy, however, is by far the episode I detest watching in S1... aside from the Leroy and Mary Margaret stuff.

[Shanna Marie]

I doubt they actually realized how it came off, which is not out of the ordinary for them.

They do a lot of that, don't they?

 

There's Graham, whom Regina is controlling through his heart and ordering this man who detests her to go to her bedchamber and have sex with her, and they're shocked, shocked! that anyone would consider him being forced to have sex against his will to be rape.

There's Regina, gleefully and obliviously doing things that hurt Henry, just so she can score points against Emma, and we're supposed to believe that she's loved Henry all along and he even wishes he hadn't brought Emma to town to shake up their happy little family.

There's the race of people bred solely for hard labor and not allowed to have any outside lives, but really, that's not what they meant. They were just setting up star-crossed lovers whose duties had to come before their relationship.

There's Rumple murdering his wife because she left him and Regina murdering her lover because he broke up with her, and yet we're supposed to be pulling for them to find happily ever after in new relationships instead of squirming at the domestic violence implications.

And there's the skeevy 20-something adult sleeping with a homeless teenage girl, then setting her up to go to prison for his crime and abandoning her to the point that he never even knew she was pregnant, and that's handwaved as something he had no choice but to do in order for her to live up to her destiny. We're supposed to see him as such a hero that he's worthy of having a baby named after him.

 

I am so glad I'm not friends with these writers. It really makes you wonder what their personal moral codes are like.

[KingOfHearts]

Peter Pan's backstory was featured in 2 fairybacks. Zelena had 4. Peter Pan appeared in 3 fairybacks. Zelena appeared in a whopping 7. They spent all this time building up Zelena, only to kill her off in Kansas. Um... why?
 

Here are the number of flashbacks each cast member got to be in through S3:

- Rumple: 9

- Regina: 8

- Snow: 8

- Charming: 7

- Belle: 6

- Neal: 5

- Hook: 4

- Henry: 3

- Emma: 3

 

I did not count the time travel in the finale, nor episodes where they weren't really there. (Shapeshifting, etc.) The Enchanted Forest was in 17 flashback episodes, Land Without Magic in 4, Neverland in 3, and Oz in 2. The balancing in all this is what's worth noting.

 

If I'm wrong on any of these, please let me know.

Edited July 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Technically, Emma's had four flashbacks, but that includes Henry's birth scene and the brief glimpse of Emma the most adorable baby ever in "The Stranger". If you want to count her as a baby in the Pilot, that's five.

Edited July 3, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

Technically, Emma's had four flashbacks, but that includes Henry's birth scene and the brief glimpse of Emma the most adorable baby ever in "The Stranger". If you want to count her as a baby in the Pilot, that's five.

 

Actually, I was only talking about Season 3. But thanks for reminding me of Henry's birth scene. I'll edit in two more episodes for Emma, and one more for Henry! (The Heart of the Truest Believer and Going Home)

Edited July 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I think "Heart of Darkness" might be where the morality started going wonky because that's where Regina says her infamous "Evil isn't born, it's made" line. Reggie, honey, don't go pinning that on Snow. You made yourself evil. Snow had absolutely nothing to do with that. And then there was Dark Snow in the flashback. I'm hoping that Rumple's potion wasn't exactly as advertised because I wouldn't think that forgetting the person she loved would make her go full-on psychopath, unless maybe they were actually trying to equate Snow to Regina and say that if she lost her love, she'd be evil, too (which actually makes no sense because without the potion, Snow had lost both parents to murder and was being hunted down as an outlaw by someone who tried to have her killed, and that didn't make her go evil). The potion seemed to make her lose all love. I'm guessing that Rumple was really trying to make it so that Charming would be forced to carry out an Act of Pure Love (a la Frozen, but a couple of years earlier) to save her in order to juice the True Love in their relationship so he could bottle it. But still, knowing these writers, I have to worry that they really did mean that if Snow lost her love, she'd be as evil as Regina. And then there's the issue that they made it sound like killing the evil tyrant who murdered her father and who was trying to kill her would be an evil act instead of a good deed that would free her people.

 

However, I think that Regina in Evil Mayor mode may have been the most effective villain so far on this series. There was enough there to sustain an entire season, and she and Emma were fairly evenly matched, even though Regina held all the cards. At times I actually find it hard to watch, particularly during the framing Mary Margaret arc, because one of my hot buttons I have trouble dealing with in fiction is institutional injustice, in which the villain is the person in absolute control and able to frame someone who has no other recourse for justice. Regina having the keys to everyone's home and the ability to alter phone records and otherwise control everything makes her effective but also frustrating. And there's almost no magic at all here, other than the magic that created the situation. But I'm not sure they could have that effective a non-magical villain under the current structure without removing magic from everyone. It worked here because only Henry and Rumple knew who she really was and what she was up to. Emma was fighting her but thought she was just a garden-variety control-freak bitch until she started realizing she was dealing with a psychopath. Everyone else hardly seemed to have an opinion about Regina or even thought she was their friend, which made it difficult for Emma to fight her. With magic users it would be hard to sustain a non-magical villain unless the villain was so subtle that no one realized he/she was a villain until it was almost too late, and then if the audience knows and the heroes don't, the heroes can come across as Too Stupid To Live (see Zelena). It's a shame they wasted the anti-magic group concept by making it Pan's ploy because it would be interesting to see what would happen if magic were neutralized again and they all had to function without it.

 

Snow's Enchanted Forest wig was so much better in season one, before that unfortunate egg-beater accident it seems to have suffered, but that makes me wonder what she thinks about her changing hair -- was the pixie cut meant as part of her torture while being Mary Margaret, and would she consider growing her hair out while in Storybrooke (yeah, I know, not likely because Ginny wears her hair short), or did she decide she liked the easy care and would she want to whack it all off when she got back to the Enchanted Forest? What other things from our world would the characters want to keep even when they went home? Still more wasted potential from the lost year.

 

I find myself really missing Ruby/Red in the latest season after rewatching season one. Not that I think she should be a main character, but I like her friendship with Snow in the Enchanted Forest and her friendship with Emma in Storybrooke and I think the world is richer with her in it. I absolutely love the bit where Henry is trying to help her find a job and is focusing entirely on jobs involving carrying things in baskets.

[Dani-Ellie]

I think "Heart of Darkness" might be where the morality started going wonky because that's where Regina says her infamous "Evil isn't born, it's made" line. Reggie, honey, don't go pinning that on Snow. You made yourself evil.

 

It's one of those things where the sentiment is right but where the show went with it is problematic. Evil is made, but it's not made by outside circumstances. It's made by how one reacts to challenges in life. Taking one's anger and pain out on everyone else to the point that Regina did is of course evil, but not a single one of her victims made her that way. Like you said, she made herself evil. She let herself drown in the darkness until it consumed her. She let her negative emotions fester until they became a wound that could never be healed, and that's on no one but her.

 

I kind of keep waiting for the "evil is made" sentiment to make a reappearance only with Regina recognizing the difference this time, but that would require a level of sticking self-awareness that the writers seem to be allergic to giving her.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Camera One]

I think "Heart of Darkness" might be where the morality started going wonky because that's where Regina says her infamous "Evil isn't born, it's made" line. But still, knowing these writers, I have to worry that they really did mean that if Snow lost her love, she'd be as evil as Regina. 

 

Unfortunately, I think that is where the writers were going with it.  To make Regina seem more human, they feel they need to imply that Snow, under certain circumstances, would have turned out the same way.  I really thought and was hoping at the end of "Heart of Darkness" that the inner light and inner conscience within Snow White herself would pull through, but nope.  So there is nothing inherently within Snow then?  This seemed to also reduce the responsibility of Rumple as the Dark One to dig deep past the magic, to let his conscience guide his actions.  

 

And what did they mean if Snow killed Regina, there would be no going back?  I doubt Snow would suddenly have become a mass murdering psycho after that.  And yet Regina has already done thousands of killings, and she can still go back and become rehabilitated?

 

And look how they tried this tact again in Season 2, with Snow killing Cora and getting that dark spot in her heart, even though Cora deserved to die even more since she was threatening to kill everyone.  Over and over again, they push the same message that Regina isn't that bad, since look!   Snow could be tempted to do the same!  And Season 3, they took the last step by having Snow enact the Dark Curse, the ultimate evil that Regina had committed.  

 

 

 

Not that I think she should be a main character, but I like her friendship with Snow in the Enchanted Forest and her friendship with Emma in Storybrooke and I think the world is richer with her in it. I absolutely love the bit where Henry is trying to help her find a job and is focusing entirely on jobs involving carrying things in baskets.

 

I love her friendship with Snow, and while I really enjoy the supporting characters, the problem is the writers can't even be bothered to allot a scene to Snow and Emma, so how they can budget in a scene with Snow and Red, or Snow and Leroy.  

 

Look at how they handled Snow after she killed Cora, and when she was catatonic in bed.  Did they even have a subplot with Emma, Red, Charming or Henry helping Snow to get through it?  Nope, they just had her sitting in the background with no dialogue except for one scene (albeit a good one) with Rumple.  They hardly even had Emma and Charming defend Snow's decision!  The entire freak'in town should have been celebrating.  Henry should have been aghast that Regina was complicit in a woman being thrown off the clock tower.  There were so many natural repercussions that came out, but all the writers cared about was Regina gaining the moral high ground by sparing Snow's life when she offered her heart on a golden platter.  

Edited July 3, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Snow killing Cora was a bad plot idea. It was A) totally contrived and B) solely for the purpose of messing with character morals. That candle could NOT have been the only way to kill Cora. Of all the things in Gold's shop, Rumple chose that specific weapon to manipulate Snow.

 

The writers were teasing the idea of Snow being a gray character without actually making her gray. There's this iconic persona of Snow White doing no wrong, and they should have kept that. In another twisted strategy, the writers wanted to have both. They wanted Snow to go "gray" without going gray. It's another example of writing with no payoff. Snow going gray was a bad idea, but what made this plot point worse was that they attempted to keep her both pure and dark - which you just can't do. Regina, in the present, is suffering from the same problem.

 

If they were fully committed to Regina's redemption arc, they would have waited until later to kill Cora then have Regina be the killer to save the Charmings. It would have been the big "aha" moment in her arc. She would finally understand that Cora was the real oppressor in her life, not Snow. Or if she didn't want to kill her own mother, at least use that Pandora's Box!

Edited July 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

The writers were teasing the idea of Snow being a gray character without actually making her gray. There's this iconic persona of Snow White doing no wrong, and they should have kept that. In another twisted strategy, the writers wanted to have both. They wanted Snow to go "gray" without going gray. It's another example of writing with no payoff. Snow going gray was a bad idea, but what made this plot point worse was that they attempted to keep her both pure and dark - which you just can't do.

ICAM. I actually didn't mind the idea of exploring a darker Snow--I thought it would be interesting--but the writers trying to have it both ways made the story utterly stupid. Either commit to actually having a gray Snow (Slushy! Hee!) and/or the idea that the candle had some sort of magical corrupting influence that the Charmings have to reel Snow back from, or don't do the storyline, but don't try to sell me on how self-defense is some totally evil thing and the "good" thing to do is calmly stand by while someone murders you and your entire family.

 

ngl, I was totally cheering for Snow when she tricked Regina and killed Cora. I actually bellowed "YOU GO SNOW!" at the TV when it happened. And then of course the writers had to totally f up Snow's crowning moment of awesomeness. Of course.

Edited July 3, 2014 by stealinghome

[Camera One]

I had no interest in seeing Snow dancing around like a marionette puppeted by Rumple's manipulations with the Candle.  To me, it was just another case of not letting the "good guys" come up with a *good* plan and executing it in a spectacular fashion as everyone cheered on, which still has not happened on this show yet since only Regina or Rumple can save the day.  I cheered Snow on as well.  Since we now know Cora could have enchanted her heart so no one could control her, killing Cora was actually the only possible course of action.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I was totally cheering for Snow when she tricked Regina and killed Cora. I actually bellowed "YOU GO SNOW!" at the TV when it happened.

I was cheering, too, and I even liked that they used the candle because it was Cora's weapon in the first place. It wasn't like Snow went out and had it made. It was the thing Cora tried to tempt her with after murdering her mother.

 

Maybe it's my military brat background, but I have absolutely no problem with the good guys taking out a bad guy in self defense or defense of others, especially if the bad guy started it. That's what the military and police do, and are you telling me that they're all evil if they've ever killed or hurt anyone? How are the good guys supposed to win if they can't actually fight back? It's like the Star Wars morality -- Luke killing the Emperor to save his friends and all the rebels and free the galaxy from tyranny will send him hurtling toward the Dark Side, so he has to just let the Emperor keep on giving orders that could kill everyone around. And this is good. Then Darth Vader gets fed up and redeems himself, returning to the side of good, by killing the Emperor. So if the good guy does something, it will make him evil, but if the bad guy does the exact same thing -- and, really, for a more selfish reason, because Vader killed the Emperor to save his son, and Luke would have done it to save thousands -- it makes him good. Methinks the Once Upon a Time writers watched Return of the Jedi a few too many times at a formative age.

 

Leaving Regina alive to slaughter entire villages because Snow's too wimpy to kill her is not the act of a good person or even a good ruler. Snow killing one person who has already killed multiple people in order to save the entire town doesn't put her anywhere near the same moral level as Regina or Cora. Motives count.

[KingOfHearts]

Snow killing one person who has already killed multiple people in order to save the entire town doesn't put her anywhere near the same moral level as Regina or Cora. Motives count.

 

I agree. Motives also count from the writers. They didn't have Snow kill Cora so she could be badass, they did it to make drama for 2B. I totally understand Snow feeling guilty (normally those who murder feel remorse, even if it was for a good reason), but the writers played it out like "ooo Snow's evil now!" only to backtrack later. It created sufficient drama for the latter half of S2, then dropped almost completely. It was also used to make Regina look better by saying "Well Regina killed my dad, but I killed her mom, so we're even now."

 

Snow's heart was supposed to grow darker, but it didn't. It was fixed only a few episodes later with absolutely no fanfare or mention. It was a cop-out for drama purposes, like Lacey or David's dreamshade.

 

Besides the Snow problem, I love the irony of Cora being killed by the very weapon she tempted Snow with.

Edited July 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

 

Leaving Regina alive to slaughter entire villages because Snow's too wimpy to kill her is not the act of a good person or even a good ruler.

 

Word. Even after the whole "Regina can't harm Snow White in the Enchanted Forest" Curse, Snow should have at least kept her in prison, not let her go back to Knifingham Palace, where she could wreak havoc again. Snow and Charming were horrible rulers! Snow, because Regina is her weak spot of guilt, and Charming, for always giving way to Snow despite their differences of opinion. If everyone went back to the Enchanted Forest, I would hope neither the Charmings nor Regina ever became monarchs again. They should let Emma take over, as long as she doesn't become a second Snow and starts feeling guilty about "ruining" Regina's life. ;-)

Edited July 3, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

Word. Even after the whole "Regina can't harm Snow White in the Enchanted Forest" Curse, Snow should have at least kept her in prison, not let her go back to Knifingham Palace, where she could wreak havoc again.

They couldn't keep her in prison because the squid ink only lasted so long.

 

Snowing: "She may be able to kill someone else, but at least she can't hurt us now, right? That's what's important!"

 

Then in New York Serenade...

Snowing: "Sorry everyone, but enacting the Dark Curse and getting to our daughter is out of the question. Now to our thrones and royalty- I mean our kingdom!"

 

Then in A Curious Thing...

Snowing: "Oh Zelena threatened us now? Time to enact the Dark Curse! Who cares about interrupting the lives of our subjects, right? Sorry Emma, but you need to save our hides again!"

 

Those two (mostly Snow) have some serious priority issues.

Edited July 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

If they were fully committed to Regina's redemption arc, they would have waited until later to kill Cora then have Regina be the killer to save the Charmings. It would have been the big "aha" moment in her arc. She would finally understand that Cora was the real oppressor in her life, not Snow. Or if she didn't want to kill her own mother, at least use that Pandora's Box!

This, so much this! I totally thought that this was where the Cora arc was going, and was stunned--and disappointed--when that wasn't the case. I agree that it would have done a much better service to Regina's character if she had had to be the one to put her mother down.

 

Come to think of it, I wonder if 3x18 wasn't a tacit acknowledgment that maybe they killed Cora too soon/in the wrong way, because Regina needed to confront and fight her mother as a crucial part of her redemption arc. Hence we got the uber contrived trip into Afterlifeville.