A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Camera One]

For me, it is much better than 3B.  We don't have one particular character eating up the screentime like Zelena did in 3B.  The flashbacks have featured a variety of characters, with many returning guests that get to also appear in the present-day.  

[HoodlumSheep]

For me, it is much better than 3B. We don't have one particular character eating up the screentime like Zelena did in 3B. The flashbacks have featured a variety of characters, with many returning guests that get to also appear in the present-day.

I know, I know. My head is telling me this too.

But yeah, if 5b finishes strong it'll find a place near the top with 3a, etc. from a writing, etc standard. But if I base it on my own personal preferences, 3b could still edge it out possibly. I'll have to average the two trains of thought (preference vs actual quality) once the arc ends. :P

Edited April 13, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[Camera One]

I think it's also refreshing that we get a break from new characters for a half-season.  We still have Hades, but that's just one, versus The Queens of Darkness + Isaac in 4B, or The Camelot Crew + Merida in 5A.  I suppose 3B was just Zelena, but that was overkill x a million.  Hades has been used even more sparingly than Peter Pan.  

 

I guess it's a reward for diehards like us to see old characters returning... only to get destroyed... uh, never mind.  Sorry Liam and Gaston.

[Rumsy4]

This is the time around which I start hating the B arcs. That hasn't happened now. That alone makes it the best B arc in 4 seasons! And like Camera One said, it nice that Hades is not taking up a huge chunk of the screen-time, unlike previous arc villains. I also like that the writers are not focusing largely on Regina's victim complex, which has been the case since 2B. We shall see.

[Camera One]

Yeah, look like at previous Episode #6's:

 

5A: "The Bear and the Bow"

4B: "Heart of Gold"

4A: "Family Business"

 

Season 3 was an exception... both 3A and 3B's sixth episode featured Ariel... that's a win.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Even when it's been boring, 5B has carried the character development. Our Decay was a huge scoring point for Zelena because it added so much depth. Her Handsome Hero moved the Rumpbelle relationship into an entirely new direction. While the heroes still have no plan (and just sort of running around as usual), they're at least doing something productive with confronting their pasts.

 

I like that 5B hasn't lost its focus, either. Other arcs distracted with dead-end detours like Merida or Zarian. But escaping Underbrooke and defeating Hades has been there steadily without being too in-your-face. I totally dig the setting and I'm strangely not tired of it yet. There's already been more worldbuilding than Neverland.

Edited April 13, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I think this arc may be the odd case of me liking the arc as a whole better than I like any of the individual episodes. I'm interested in the ongoing story, but the episodes themselves haven't really been that outstanding if you take them individually.

 

In previous arcs, I tended to like individual episodes better than the ongoing storyline, or else I liked individual scenes but not the episodes or the arc.

[YaddaYadda]

I think it's because the episodes are not so centric, if that makes sense? Sometimes, the centrics feel like they're stand alone episodes that are unrelated to the arc (see Bear King). But I thought the centrics in this arc are flowing well into one another so far.

[Mathius]

This is the time around which I start hating the B arcs. That hasn't happened now. That alone makes it the best B arc in 4 seasons! And like Camera One said, it nice that Hades is not taking up a huge chunk of the screen-time, unlike previous arc villains. I also like that the writers are not focusing largely on Regina's victim complex, which has been the case since 2B. We shall see.

 

Agreed. S1 had no A and B arcs (the only difference between A and B halves was Graham's existence), so it doesn't count, and every other season until now had the B arc sucking while the A arc was good.  This is the first exception, in which the B arc is not only decent but arguably better than this season's A arc. Regina's surprising maturity in it is a plus too.

 

 

While the heroes still have no plan (and just sort of running around as usual), they're at least doing something productive with confronting their pasts.

 

Also, Hades is in the same boat: he has no real big plan, he's just running around trying to keep his Underworld in order. Even moreso than with Pan, the hero-villain conflict in this arc is a evenhanded one of moves and counter-moves.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Mathius

[HoodlumSheep]

I think this arc may be the odd case of me liking the arc as a whole better than I like any of the individual episodes. I'm interested in the ongoing story, but the episodes themselves haven't really been that outstanding if you take them individually.

In previous arcs, I tended to like individual episodes better than the ongoing storyline, or else I liked individual scenes but not the episodes or the arc.

This. The arc has been good, but there have been no stand-out moments or episodes for me.

[Curio]

This. The arc has been good, but there have been no stand-out moments or episodes for me.

 

That's basically all of Season 4 for me. The only episode in Season 5 so far that has really stood out to me as being a Top-5 contender for best in the entire series is Birth. The 5B Milah episode might turn out to be pretty good in hindsight, but only if they allow Milah to be saved from the river at the end of the season. If not, it'll be a terrible message overall.

[YaddaYadda]

Birth is bar none the best episode for me this season, and even season 4.

 

It's interesting that the same people that wrote Birth gave us the very disappointing The Jones Brothers. It was at least disappointing to me. 

[HoodlumSheep]

Birth is bar none the best episode for me this season, and even season 4.

It's interesting that the same people that wrote Birth gave us the very disappointing The Jones Brothers. It was at least disappointing to me.

Yeah it was disappointing, sadly. I think a lot of it had to do with pacing. The Jones Brothers had good stuff and ideas in it, but it was too rushed. You could tell the writers needed stuff to happen (Hook to get over his issues and the Hades/Zelena reveal).

Where as Birth was perfectly paced. How they managed it, we may never know. Better than season 4 and depending on how the rest of 5b goes, could be the best episode of the entire season.

I don't know if it's the writers' fault or the plot's fault or whatever.

5x15 is a good example of how pacing can make or break an episode, despite still having decent content.

Edited April 13, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[KingOfHearts]

Birth was one of the best episodes of 5A. It drove the tension and adrenaline very well. But I wouldn't put it anyone close to my favorite episodes of the series.

 

For Season 4, they were good episodes (sparingly) but poor arcs. 4x03, 4x12, 4x15, and 4x18 stood on their own as great individual stories. Unfortunately, the Author crap, weak Storybrooke subplots in 4A, and the lack of overall focus put a huge damper on things. Cruella and Ursula both had awesome centrics that were thought-out, though. (Cruella's in particular is one of my favorites of the series.) 

 

 

This. The arc has been good, but there have been no stand-out moments or episodes for me.

5B does have the superior arc to S4, though I wouldn't say the episodes are bad. So far I've liked 5x12, 5x14 and, 5x16. Basically every other episode. Would I put any of them in my top lists? No, but there's been far more consistent quality. None of the episodes have been completely pointless or filler.

 

 

Even though 5B is set in the Underworld, dealing with Emma being a Dark One felt more epic in scale and it produced some really beautiful and iconic scenes. The reveal of Excalibur being a part of the Dark One dagger, the Camelot Ball, the Captain Swan kiss(es) in the flower field, Emma using dark and light magic to release Merlin from the tree, Emma screaming at Nimue that she isn't nothing, and the reveal of Dark Hook rising from the vault are all epic visuals that 5B hasn't come close to topping in my opinion.

 

5A had some awesome elements and beautiful scenes. However, it begins to lack balance or order midway through. While the scenes in Camelot flowed, the Merida and Storybrooke stories interrupted it abundantly. I would probably have a higher opinion of 5A if you took all that out and just left Camelot. But I also found Dark Swan amazingly underwhelming. So that would have to be fixed too.

Edited April 13, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[HoodlumSheep]

Season 4 only had a couple of good/solid episodes (like 4x15, etc.), but none of them to me were stand-outs except the Cruella episode. If I'm not fully engrossed in an episode, then I don't consider it an absolute stand-out. Same applies with 5x08. 'Birth' has been the only episode in season 5 to have me at the edge of my seat.

My personal faves for 5b have been Labor of Love and Our Decay. I feel like those are weird choices, but I can't help what I feel. They were enjoyable, decently solid episodes. Not stand-outs, but I'd totally rewatch them. Loved the Snow/Herc stuff.

Surprisingly, the "Our Decay" scene between Hades and Zelena is probably my favorite moment of the season. Bex and Greg G. were great and I loved Greg G's line delivery talking about the destruction and decay (probably the only moment were hades' speech pattern--the whisperyness of a lot of his lines--didn't bug me).

5x14 was good too (more solid than eps 13 and 16), but It ranks lower due to my own personal preferences.

Edited April 13, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[Shanna Marie]

5B does have the superior arc to S4, though I wouldn't say the episodes are bad. So far I've liked 5x12, 5x14 and, 5x16. Basically every other episode. Would I put any of them in my top lists? No, but there's been far more consistent quality. None of the episodes have been completely pointless or filler.

That's about where I am. The 5B arc is good, none of the episodes so far have been total stinkers, but there also hasn't been anything truly outstanding that would go in my series-wide favorite episode list. 5A wasn't bad. It just didn't live up to its potential. It had some really strong spots and some really weak spots, and it suffered from terrible worldbuilding in that the Dark One magic stuff makes less sense the more you think about it.

 

On the other hand, 3B had some of my favorite episodes, but the arc sucked and the episodes that weren't good were really, really awful. Season 4 had some great moments, but no really outstandingly good episodes and lots of really bad ones.

[Rumsy4]

I loved a lot about 5A, especially Emma's "I'm not nothing" moment with Nimue, Hook being heroic in Camelot, and all the CS development. The Camelot costume porn was fantastic. Birth and Nimue were my favorite episodes from 5A. I also loved "Broken Heart", even if it was painful to watch. Colin absolutely KILLED it as Dark Hook. 

 

In 5B, none of the episodes have been standout. Devil's Due was pretty good. Jones Brothers is my least fav episode episode. However, as a whole, 5B shaping up to be a good arc, and giving all the characters things to do (unless you are Robin Hood). David is not getting enough screen time, but at least Snow is getting some good scenes with her freaking daughter!! Ugh. 

Edited April 13, 2016 by Rumsy4

[HoodlumSheep]

I am seriously hoping that when 5b is said and done that someone with talent makes a gifset that shows just how much 5a and 5b are foiling each other. I don't know if it's intentional, or if A&E got lucky, but I'm loving it.

I'm talking like:

-Emma's fam totally not being there for her vs. being there for her

-Snow pulling a Mary Margaret vs Snow actually behaving like Snow

-Regina being an awful, no good terrible "friend" vs her finally behaving like one.

-Rumple's "hero" nonsense vs him acknowledging he's a terrible person.

Etc. etc.

I just want a really nice gifset of the contrasts so I can stare at it for all of eternity.

[KingOfHearts]

Even if the rest of 5B is full of duds, we still got all this:

- Regina makes amends with her father and chooses to keep going on the right path.

- Mary Margaret transforms into Snow, resolving her identity crisis.

- Milah meets Emma and gets some conclusion on Baelfire. After betraying everyone, Rumple's bad deeds come back to bite him.

- Killian regains his desire to live, learns a lesson in hero worship.

- Zelena gets substantial character growth.

- Emma's family stands up for her.

- Rumpbelle takes a new direction and Belle is confronted with her love for Rumple's darkness.

[Curio]

Even if the rest of 5B is full of duds, we still got all this:

- Regina makes amends with her father and chooses to keep going on the right path.

- Mary Margaret transforms into Snow, resolving her identity crisis.

- Milah meets Emma and gets some conclusion on Baelfire. After betraying everyone, Rumple's bad deeds come back to bite him.

- Killian regains his desire to live, learns a lesson in hero worship.

- Zelena gets substantial character growth.

- Emma's family stands up for her.

- Rumpbelle takes a new direction and Belle is confronted with her love for Rumple's darkness.

 

My main problem with this list is that, on paper, these seem like awesome milestones, but on screen, they fell kind of flat. Maybe it's because the terrible Underworld CGI takes me out of the scenes and I can't emotionally connect to the characters as much when the cinematographer part of my brain starts analyzing how they shot a scene instead of watching for the characters. Regina making amends with her father fell flat because she didn't have to work hard for her father's forgiveness, he just automatically forgave her without hesitation. Mary Margaret transforming into Snow White again is still up for debate because there's a good chance the writers will push Ginny off into the background by the end of the arc anyways. Emma meeting Milah was awesome, but Milah ended up receiving a fate far worse than she deserved and it's more than likely that she'll end up like Graham, and Killian won't be able to say goodbye to the person he fought for for hundreds of years. Killian getting his groove back was handled way too quickly and with too much focus on his brother. Of that list, the only really interesting points for me have been Zelena's progression as a character finally getting some three-dimensionality, the dark turn on Rumbelle (if it lasts...), and Emma's family finally going along with something she wants to do for an entire arc.

[profdanglais]

I would have liked 5A better if three things had been done differently:

 

1. Darker Dark Swan.

While Emma's HeadRumple was the most entertaining Rumple has been since the S3 finale, it was an underwhelming way to demonstrate Emma's internal conflict. She didn't seem to be tempted by darkness at all. The whole thing seemed to be just that she couldn't do magic, because her magic had turned dark and using it would make her dark. But wanting to use her magic isn't inherently dark, and she only really wanted to use it for good things, like saving Robin (well, sort of good) and Hook. I would have liked to see more actual temptation to darkness and conflict within Emma. Having dark impulses should have been a new and terrifying experience for her, but that wasn't emphasised as much as it could have been. 

 

2. More Dark Hook. 

Birth was a great episode, but Dark Hook came out of nowhere and was resolved in a few episodes. Far better if we'd seen Hook in Storybrooke start to revert to his darker self without realising why, beginning to suspect it had something to do with Emma, working things out for himself, then when the truth was revealed revisiting his anger from Camelot and slowly falling down the spiral to ultimate darkness. Instead, he was like "Welp, seeing as I'm the Dark One, which I've just very suddenly discovered, I'll be popping off to the lake and resurrecting all the other Dark Ones from the Underworld. What do you mean 'abrupt?'" I might be in the minority, but I loved Dark Hook. Hook spends a lot of time having his agency trampled on, by Rumple, by Pan, by Hades, even by Emma. It was nice to see him have some power, even evil power. I would have loved to see him revel in that for a while before realising that it was all hollow and what he really wanted was to be a hero, after all. 

 

3. No Merida.

All the above could have been accomplished if they'd just cut Merida out of the whole arc. 

[YaddaYadda]

I think 5A would have worked better if they had decided to go linear instead of doing flashbacks. I think they should have gone from Storybrooke, to Camelot, and remained in Camelot for those 6 weeks, and then dark curse back to Storybrooke. They could have had their flashbacks for Arthur and Co for all the good that did.

 

And yes, the element of "surprise MoFo's, best you didn't see Dark Hook coming", but we could have done without that. Hook is the bloody effin' Dark One who has no recollection of that. Is he affect in any way by the dark magic that's in him? Are people noticing things around him? Is Emma worried that he might stumble on that truth before she's done with her plans?

 

They could have made their very first scene of the season Emma showing up in Storybrooke as the Dark One for shock value, and we would still be wondering what happened to Emma.

 

And I think they might have been able to answer a whole bunch of things that they left up in the air, like why in the hell was Merlin brewing the dark curse? 

 

I think there were missed opportunities to show how the characters felt about what was going on in Storybrooke. They literally just sat around, and reacted to nothing. Snow and David are upset about Emma but make zero efforts to go see her.

 

They also had an entire hour that they chose to waste on Merida. Merida got 2 centrics, and the second one had diddly squat to do with the story. I know ABC requested an extra hour, and that they were filming both 5x08 and 5x09 at the same time, but I think it still could have been handled better than giving me more Merida whining.

 

5A though was hella better than all of season 4 put together. 4B nearly killed my love for this show.

[Shanna Marie]

My main problem with 5A was a lack of coherence. It was like they just threw out a bunch of random things that sounded cool as they needed them for plot purposes, without any real plan or design.

 

So we got Merlin making his ominous warning to Emma that ended up making no sense and not mattering. There was his voice mail about Nimue, which didn't make any sense and didn't fit the events in any way. He could foretell a guard walking down a corridor a second later, but he couldn't warn Snow not to listen to Zelena or tell Hook to duck, and he didn't seem to realize that there might have been a problem with the way he set Arthur up to pull a broken sword out of a stone. Not to mention that he was part of the team going after the sword and he didn't think to tell them not to get cut on it. And we still don't have an explanation for the mansion and the hat and his tie to the Author.

 

Then there was the mangled nonsense of the Dark One mythology -- the origins with the Holy Grail and Nimue kind of worked (in spite of not fitting what the Apprentice told us in season 4), but then that didn't explain how tethering Merlin to the sword created another Dark One and how then removing that tether and moving it to Hook made Hook a Dark One when he was coming from the Merlin side of things rather than the Nimue side of things (and wouldn't that have been a cool plot to play out, with Light One Hook taking over from Merlin and Emma as the Dark One, reenacting Merlin and Nimue but with a better outcome). Plus, how could Hook not be the Dark One in spite of being the Dark One, just because he didn't remember it, and why did remembering it act like tripping a switch? Even the Dark One rules as applied to Emma weren't coherent. She saved Robin's life, a good thing, but that turned her darker, and somehow that's the one healing in the history of this show that has had any kind of cost. I'm still not entirely sure how the sucking up the Dark Ones into the sword and then stabbing Hook with it worked, nor how Rumple conveniently had a potion he could put on the sword to steal the Darkness (and why couldn't he have done that sooner without anyone having to die -- he had the solution to their issues all along).

 

Plus other stuff, like Rumple being able to be a pure hero just because the darkness had been sucked out of his heart plus doing one moderately brave deed, and that's enough to draw Excalibur. Or the logic of Emma going around town acting like the Dark One and making everyone curious and worried rather than pretending she was okay so they wouldn't suspect anything, since we saw she was capable of looking normal to Hook.

[Mathius]

Yeah it was disappointing, sadly. I think a lot of it had to do with pacing. The Jones Brothers had good stuff and ideas in it, but it was too rushed. You could tell the writers needed stuff to happen (Hook to get over his issues and the Hades/Zelena reveal).

Where as Birth was perfectly paced. How they managed it, we may never know. Better than season 4 and depending on how the rest of 5b goes, could be the best episode of the entire season.

I don't know if it's the writers' fault or the plot's fault or whatever.

5x15 is a good example of how pacing can make or break an episode, despite still having decent content.

 

Yes. I think most of the present-day stuff in "The Brothers Jones" was some of THE best stuff in the arc (yes, including Henry's scenes!), which is why I enjoy the episode, but it was admittedly rushed along at a rapid pace rather than spaced out in two episodes which would have been ideal, and it was running alongside a dull, controversial flashback.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Mathius

[RadioGirl27]

I seem to be in the minority, but I'm not a big fan of 5B so far. I mean, I don't hate it like 4B but I find it lackluster. It lacks emotion and sense of urgency. We are six episodes into it and they are still trapped in the UW, Hook is still dead and they don't know how to solve any of those things. But, instead, the characters are having breakfast at Granny's like it's any other day or doing whatever the hell Charming and Robin do most of the time. It has good things, though, like Snow being back or Regina being actually tolerable (except for that horrible flashback in episode 100).

[KingOfHearts]

 

It lacks emotion and sense of urgency. We are six episodes into it and they are still trapped in the UW, Hook is still dead and they don't know how to solve any of those things. But, instead, the characters are having breakfast at Granny's like it's any other day or doing whatever the hell Charming and Robin do most of the time.

I actually like this pace because it the show has been a rushing freight train since 4B with no stops. I prefer the break with less tension because we're getting some focus on the characters in a more balanced fashion instead. It's closer to the S1 formula than anything has been since 3A. It is rushed at times, but the characters aren't in constant crisis because they have hope. 5A was mostly hopeless, taxing, and stressful. I like getting the little things such as the haunting booth or Cruella mistakenly making out with Charming. 5A attempted to do something similar with Merida, but all it did was raise my blood pressure even higher.

Edited April 13, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[HoodlumSheep]

I also think that this season is weirdly average despite the good stuff we've gotten. I could list all the good improvements, but this season lacks...something.

Presence? Lack of On-screen presence? Like what Curio said.

That's why when I originally chimed in about 5b, I was comparing it to 3b. Because despite the ups and downs, overall it was an average/mediocre season.

Although 3b currently has more memorable/stand-out moments than 5b in my opinion.

And then it also comes down to personal taste and biases on what stuff people like and how people would rank things. Like, writing wise this season is more on par with 3a, but presence-wise it's on the lower end of the spectrum.

Honestly the "Our Decay" Wicked Hell/Hell Witch scene is the the only scene that's really resonated with me this season. Which is crazy because of all the stuff you'd think I'd get a emotional about, I would not expect it to be a Zelena/Hades scene.

So I don't really know what that says about 5b.

Edited April 13, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[Camera One]

The only episode I've disliked this arc is "Our Decay".  I didn't feel like it gave Zelena any depth at all.  Do people think the flashback gave her depth?  Or the present-day?  The flashback was all whine whine whine to me.  Unfortunately, I couldn't buy that she had changed even when she gave up her baby.. it just felt disingenuous.  Having her kill the Munchkin and the Guard in the flashback made me even less likely to feel anything for her.  

 

However, I must say that I liked Zelena's little scene in "Her Handsome Hero".  That scene was way more believable in showing that maybe she is committing to letting her baby go, if it's safe.  (Of course, she was back to the wicked smiles receiving the dead flower, so...)  Overall, I'm hoping that in hindsight, I can enjoy "Our Decay" more.  It depends how Zelena progresses from here.

[HoodlumSheep]

I loved Our Decay. Probably an unpopular opinion, but oh well. I thought it was pretty solid for what it was.

My least favorite 5b episode is probably the 100th. It was just so boring and I can hardly remember any of it.

Edited April 13, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[Curio]

My least favorite 5b episode is probably the 100th. It was just so boring and I can hardly remember any of it.

 

Same. (The only thing that really sticks out in my mind is creepy Jiminy Cricket's scene.) And that episode honestly makes me really, really nervous for the show's eventual final episode to wrap up the entire series. The 100th episode is a huge milestone that show runners probably lose a lot of sleep thinking about. Adam & Eddy plotted that sucker out since summer and knew exactly how they wanted the episode to go down, and that's how they chose to celebrate the show's success. As much as I complain about the show, I also love it to pieces, and it's sad that there's an 80% chance that I'm going to be sitting on my couch with my jaw wide open staring at my TV screen when the final "The End" slide appears saying to myself, "Really? That's how you decided to end it?"

[Camera One]

I loved Our Decay. Probably an unpopular opinion, but oh well. I thought it was pretty solid for what it was.

 

No, it's not unpopular.  Many people also expressed that sentiment in the episode thread so you're not alone.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

I kind of wished they had spent a little more time on Emma's plan to get rid of the Darkness. It had been around

for so long and effected so many characters and now they finally knew of a way to get rid of it for good. But no

one talks about it? Just don't kill Zelena, that's wrong. All we get is Regina's if anyone's going to kill her its going

to be her. No one after that mentions how nice it would be to great rid of the Darkness and Dark Ones forever?

They finally know of a way to get rid of the Darkness and Dark Ones for good and no one wants to talk about

that? No one wonders what life would be like without it?  

[Camera One]

When 5A first started, I thought by "Darkness", they meant a lot of the evil in the world.  But it seems like it would just get rid of the Dark One for good.  Outside of Nimue, there was still darkness and evil in the world.  I guess I was expecting a more epic origin than one person.  It would still have been good to be rid of The Dark One for good, though.   Too bad the Writers weren't willing to get rid of that crutch.  I guess we saw from the latest episode that someone controlling someone else with the Dagger never gets old.  *rolls eyes*  

 

I mean, couldn't Rumple still be a very powerful evil wizard even without being The Dark One?  Why would he want to be tethered to a Dagger?  I guess the attraction of all the powers of the previous dark ones was just too much... not that it has helped him against Hades at all.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Camera One

[Mathius]

I actually like this pace because it the show has been a rushing freight train since 4B with no stops. I prefer the break with less tension because we're getting some focus on the characters in a more balanced fashion instead. It's closer to the S1 formula than anything has been since 3A. It is rushed at times, but the characters aren't in constant crisis because they have hope. 5A was mostly hopeless, taxing, and stressful. I like getting the little things such as the haunting booth or Cruella mistakenly making out with Charming. 5A attempted to do something similar with Merida, but all it did was raise my blood pressure even higher.

 

This, this, this. (Although I'd say it was the second half of 4A where the freight train started.)  What made S1, 3A, and the first half of 4A (heck, even 3B had "The Jolly Roger") so great was that not every episode was high!dramatic!life-or-death!STAKES!  There wasn't always a big crisis, sometimes the problems were smaller and less life-threatening but more personal.  And it is just so relieving to have that back with 5B for the past three episodes (after Hook was saved). 

Edited April 14, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

I think 5A would have worked better if they had decided to go linear instead of doing flashbacks.

I actually rather liked the Camelot vs. present structure because I love non-linear storytelling and it broke the reliance on the character-centric flashbacks. In a way, it was almost like season one, in that the flashbacks on their own told a coherent story that explained how the present-day situation came to be. I also wouldn't want to lose the "Hook is a Dark One!" revelation because that was one of the better twists they've done. I was even somewhat spoiled that something had to have happened to Hook, after we saw filming pictures of him in Dark One mode with a slightly different costume and his name on the sword, and yet it still was a punch to the gut the way it happened. I'm also not sure I'd have wanted Emma to go much darker in Camelot because that was what made what happened so tragic. She was fighting it successfully. She was winning. She'd had that triumph over Nimue, and she'd opened up enough to light the flame. And then it all went to hell. I don't think it would have had quite as much impact if she'd already been doing darkish things or had been seriously tempted before Hook was dying.

 

The problem was in the pacing, particularly in the Storybrooke stuff. There was no narrative drive there. They just seemed to be spinning their wheels until they were ready for the big revelation. Really, all of it was lacking a sense of urgency. They get to Camelot and get sidetracked by going to a ball and Charming bonding with Arthur while Emma is the Dark One. There was a lot of fiddling around before Emma finally decided to just get Merlin out of the tree. There was the sidetracking with Merida. Meanwhile in the present, only Hook seems to be all that worried about what Emma is up to, and meanwhile her parents are throwing a festival.

 

So, take the same structure and adjust the pacing, adding a sense of ticking clock and losing the sidetracking, and then maybe move the big revelation earlier, to closer to the midpoint of the arc, so that we can then spend more time on the full impact of Hook as Dark One -- maybe not have him trip straight over into full Darkness in 30 seconds or so. Let a little more time pass in Camelot before the return, then spend a little more time with him having gone dark in Storybrooke (and that, too, not being quite so instant) before he's able to turn it around. Let us have a little more Dark One vs. Dark One and explore Emma's darkness in Storybrooke.

 

Though there still would be all the worldbuilding fails and logic problems. If you fix the mythology of the Dark One to make it consistent and make sense and if you make Merlin behave somewhat logically, it kind of destroys the entire plot.

[maryle]

 In the minority too!

  Something missing in 5b for me.  In every other half even 3b that I mostly hate.

There an episode or a scene that stays with me longer after the episode ended.

5a had a some powerful scene for CS, OQ, (the ball,  the flower field, Henry in the stable with H. and E., Emma,  Rumple...)

 In retrospect I loved so much the acting from this arc. The angst level was so High in Birth.

But 5b I do like it mostly! But nothing stays with me after the show is over. 

I do find the arc is coherent, but the hero could be more active. They are mostly passive more than anything else. I understand the need to breathe but the urgency feels his lacking for me.

It seems they all can stay in the Underw. as long at they want without real conséquences for them.

At first I loved  Hades, but even if I Shop Zades I wanted his story with the other Gods more central  so much meat! instead he his relegate to be the love interest of Zelena .  They're nothing new to have another tragic love story on Once.

I will add that if I love Greg. as Hades for me his Hades  in lov is not being his  best by far except the bike scene.

That one I loved and will remember!

eI am waiting for the Firebird  episode and the final to judge.

But I could very well loving more the premise of the half than the real product

[Curio]

But 5b I do like it mostly! But nothing stays with me after the show is over.

 

This perfectly sums up how I feel about 5B. I'm liking the Underworld arc well enough, but there aren't a lot of scenes that have really stayed with me for weeks after the episode has ended. As a designer, I really appreciate how cinematography can elevate a mediocre scene into an epic scene, and the heavy use of CGI in this arc has made a lot of major moments feel flat. Can you imagine if Emma turned Hook into a Dark One in a crappy CGI environment instead of a beautiful flower meadow? (Yes, they used a lot of CGI to replicate the flowers, but the main environment around them was real scenery.) It would lose a lot of its impact. Emma saving Hook from Hades's trap should have been a huge climatic moment, but the unimaginative CGI environment took a lot of the impact out of the scene. (It didn't help that they rushed their scene, too.)

 

Hook saying goodbye to Liam in a real outdoor environment using a real ship in a Vancouver bay would have helped the emotional impact of their farewell scene. Regina saying goodbye to her father on a real Vancouver cliff would have been a lot more emotional. Rumple tossing Milah into a real river without distractingly bad CGI around him would have made her death more haunting. I know this show runs on a smaller budget, but I feel like there are a lot of beautiful and practical environments they could be using in Vancouver, and instead they waste money on unnecessary CGI. I might take more of my thoughts about this to the production thread...

Edited April 14, 2016 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

At first I loved  Hades, but even if I Shop Zades I wanted his story with the other Gods more central  so much meat! instead he his relegate to be the love interest of Zelena .  They're nothing new to have another tragic love story on Once.

 

Yeah--of all the ways to make Hades interesting, they chose... romance with Zelena? They should have gone with expanding on his conflict with Zeus. 5B has a siblings theme running on the side. There is Regina trying to save Zelena. James's and David's potential conflict over the former's adoption by George. Liam and Killian coming to a new understanding about each other and Liam moving on. So, Hades's conflict with his brother would have fit right within the theme of this arc. 

[AmeliaBedelia]

5B has been largely forgettable for me. I missed two eps in a row due to Easter and travel, and didn't rush to get caught up like I would have a season or two ago. The 100th episode was very disappointing, so I think I disengaged a bit. I've definitely liked bits and pieces of storylines (I wanted Hercules to stick around), but that's about it. The idea of defeating Hades is kind of silly to me. Hades should just bide his time and say "See you in a few decades suckers."

[RadioGirl27]

 

There wasn't always a big crisis, sometimes the problems were smaller and less life-threatening but more personal.  And it is just so relieving to have that back with 5B for the past three episodes (after Hook was saved).

But the problem is that they are in the middle of a life-threatening situation and that Hook hasn't been saved yet. He is not being tortured, but he is still dead. But the characters act like nothing happens. When Emma asked him if he was going home with her after they defeated Hades I actually shout to my screen "He is dead Emma, he can't go anywhere with you". And, even if some characters seem to be talking more, there are so many important and necessary conversation that are not happening. I'm still waiting for an actual conversation between Hook, Snow and Charming that I know I would never get. Or between Hook and Henry.

 

 

Yeah--of all the ways to make Hades interesting, they chose... romance with Zelena? They should have gone with expanding on his conflict with Zeus.

Yeah, the instant love for Zelena makes Hades less interesting and not the other way round.

[Mathius]

But the problem is that they are in the middle of a life-threatening situation and that Hook hasn't been saved yet. He is not being tortured, but he is still dead.

 

No, they're not in the middle of a life-threatening situation.  Hades cannot directly harm the living, just trap them in the Underworld, so he's not an active threat to their lives.  And Hook being dead isn't the problem anymore, it's all of them being trapped in the Underworld (thus Hook remaining dead as well), and they are working on a way to get around that with Henry's Author trances trying to write down Hades' story, Regina trying to ask Zelena if she knows Hades' weakness, and Emma trying to magic the names off the gravestones so that they can all be freed from the Underworld.  

 

3A had similar complaints where people thought the characters were taking too slow and not being urgent enough in their quest to save Henry, ignoring that nobody knew his life was in any danger until late in the game, and Pan actually convincingly led everyone to believe otherwise in the second episode, acting like corrupting Henry into a Lost Boy was his goal when it came to the heroes, and like Henry saving magic was his goal when it came to Henry, not letting on that he actually wanted him to sacrifice his life.  The stakes are still fairly high, but not to the point where we need the characters all running around and panicking as they try and fail to solve the problem for more than half the arc ala 4B and 5A.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

My big problem with the current arc is that I'm not entirely sure what Hades' planned endgame is -- what he really wants -- and there's not really enough pattern established for us to figure it out.

 

So, Hook dies and ends up in the Underworld. Hades tortures him horribly and holds him prisoner, even before the Nevengers come after him -- why? Was Hook being all Little Mary Sunshine and bringing in hope upon arrival? The reason Hades gave for his later tortures was Hook's hope in rescue, but that was after Emma and company showed up and after they started freeing souls, and Hook was already a bloody mess.

Meanwhile, Hades had been holding Megara prisoner all this time -- why?

Hades initially wanted the living people out of there, but now he wants some of them to stay. He said he wanted them to sub for the souls he lost, but it seems like the longer they stay, the more hope they were stirring up and the more souls he's losing. If he'd let them all go the moment they saved Hook, he'd still have Liam and the whole crew of the ship, and I'll bet that there are more who move on before we're done. Their presence was making the flowers bloom until Belle showed up.

Did he really want Zelena's baby for Zelena's sake -- perhaps as bait to lure her there? -- or is he still planning that time travel spell?

 

Basically, his actions so far don't seem to be amounting to a coherent scheme that makes much sense. He has his own thing going on and isn't just reacting to the Nevengers, but at the same time, his reactions to the Nevengers don't seem to add up to any particular goal. He's keeping them there, but their presence seems to be making things worse.

[KingOfHearts]

I see some viewers are already complaining about how long we've been in the Underworld. (Same kind of response as for Neverland or Arendelle.) If those people watched S1, they would probably fall asleep with all those kitchen sink conversations. It's snail speed compared to all the crunching-within-a-week we've gotten. There's a whole 22 episodes of the same arc, setting, and villain.

 

I can imagine many fans on this board not being too hooked on 5B since there's a lack of CS focus so far. 5A was very CS and Emma heavy, so I can see why it would get more praise here. I really enjoy the other characters like Regina more, who got sidelined in 5A. So that's probably a reason why I prefer 5B. 4A/4B had a similar position. I do like Emma, but there wasn't enough balancing for me in 5A. Also, while I find CS a great couple, I don't exactly swoon over their scenes. But that's just my personal perspective.

Edited April 14, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

So, Hook dies and ends up in the Underworld. Hades tortures him horribly and holds him prisoner, even before the Nevengers come after him -- why? Was Hook being all Little Mary Sunshine and bringing in hope upon arrival? The reason Hades gave for his later tortures was Hook's hope in rescue, but that was after Emma and company showed up and after they started freeing souls, and Hook was already a bloody mess.

 

I still think it's personal. Especially after the whole we will see Captain Hook die at last in 5x15. 

 

It also sounds as though he put Cora through the paces as well. He said he tortured Zelena's date of birth out of a miller's daughter which implies that he did it after he took everything away from her in 5x12. And that's definitely personal, so we shall see if any of this goes anywhere.

Edited April 14, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

I see some viewers are already complaining about how long we've been in the Underworld. (Same kind of response as for Neverland or Arendelle.) If those people watched S1, they would probably fall asleep with all those kitchen sink conversations. It's snail speed compared to all the crunching-within-a-week we've gotten. There's a whole 22 episodes of the same arc, setting, and villain.

There's a big difference between the way the show used to do pacing in Season 1 and now. Back then, they weren't afraid to let the characters have normal conversations with each other, and people could casually walk down the street and discuss non-monster issues for longer than a minute. Those conversations helped slow the overall pace down but also kept the audience engaged in the characters' lives. But the writers have shot themselves in the foot over and over the past few years and mostly eliminated that kind of dialogue. Now they've trained the audience to only expect one pace: full speed ahead on the exposition/fight-monster/repeat train.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Curio

[Mathius]

Hades was torturing Hook either because it's his job to do so to a Dark One who has died, or because Hook has cheated death so many times that he wants to pay hum back for it (it would add up with "AT LAST we'll see Captain Hook die").

 

(Same kind of response as for Neverland or Arendelle.) 

 

Wait, the main cast was never actually in Arendelle, WTF?
 

I do like Emma, but there wasn't enough balancing for me in 5A. 

 

 

Agreed. It's also why I love S1, 2A and 3A so much...there's a better balancing act.  5B has done very well with this so far, even with Snow and Charming (esp. compared to previous arcs), and it's only been Robin Hood who has gotten the shaft.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

 

Wait, the main cast was never actually in Arendelle, WTF?

Arendelle was seen in every episode, except for 2. I suppose I should have said Frozen. There were a lot of people sick of it midway through.

 

 

There's a big difference between the way the show used to do pacing in Season 1 and now. Back then, they weren't afraid to let the characters have normal conversations with each other, and people could casually walk down the street and discuss non-monster issues for longer than a minute. Those conversations helped slow the overall pace down but also kept the audience engaged in the characters' lives. But the writers have shot themselves in the foot over and over the past few years and mostly eliminated that kind of dialogue. Now they've trained the audience to only expect one pace: full speed ahead on the exposition/fight-monster/repeat train.

 

It's definitely on the writers. Somehow the target audience seems completely different from S1 and today. I don't think the current viewership could stand the lack of fantasy with S1's doses of realism. (And the doses weren't even that heavy compared to other shows, imo.)

Edited April 14, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I see some viewers are already complaining about how long we've been in the Underworld. (Same kind of response as for Neverland or Arendelle.) If those people watched S1, they would probably fall asleep with all those kitchen sink conversations. It's snail speed compared to all the crunching-within-a-week we've gotten.

I would suspect that this is really a symptom of some of the writing problems rather than having anything to do with kitchen sink conversations vs. action. There are two big problems that come up with every arc.

 

One is the lack of worldbuilding, so that the arc basis never lives up to its potential, and that tends to show badly in the midpoint when it almost feels like the writers have lost interest in the thing they were so excited about at first. They've already explored everything they bothered developing, and they can't be bothered with developing it in any more depth. So that's why Neverland gets boring midway through when it's just the characters walking around potted plants in a sound stage rather than really doing anything with Neverland. With the Frozen stuff, they seemed to get bored with the idea of Elsa in Storybrooke after a few episodes, and she was more or less sidelined, while in the flashbacks we never really explored the potential of live-action Arendelle. Now, they're in the Underworld, but it mostly ends up being the characters hanging out at the loft. I think if the characters were having conversations while interacting with their setting, we'd be getting a different audience reaction. The Underworld is ripe with potential for this, since all the characters could be introducing their current friends to people from their pasts and learning a lot about each other, but since this hasn't been happening all that much, the Underworld setting gets boring. We got Emma meeting Milah and Liam, and Henry meeting Henry, but nothing much beyond that, and it doesn't even seem like those meetings revealed any new insight into our regular characters for each other.

 

The other problem is narrative drive. They're really bad about the sagging middle in each arc, when the only reason the characters haven't just solved their problem right then is that the arc isn't over yet, and their solutions to this problem don't really work. It seems like in just about every arc, there's the point near the middle of the arc where one of the characters will give a promo-ready declaration of "Now we're going to solve this/beat them and go home!" But that's already blindingly obvious. Were they really not planning to beat Hades and go home before Snow made her declaration? Her declaring it makes it even more obvious that they've been hanging around in the loft. So there's no sense that all this time they were building toward a solution. I think it would have helped if they'd shown the work behind the big elevator spell. Did they already know how to do that or was there work required to learn about the elevator and find the spell? If they already knew, then why hadn't they don't it already? They do this sort of thing a lot -- midway through the arc it's "now we're going to take the fight to Pan" or "now we're going to see what Ingrid is really up to" or "now we're going to figure out what Zelena's up to" or "now we'll free Merlin" when shouldn't they have been doing that all along?

 

The other weird way they address the sagging middle is by throwing in a sidetrack, like Merida or now Ruby and Dorothy. I think perhaps they thought that bringing in Zelena would be a big midpoint turning point that would ramp up the action, but all that did was sidetrack from the central issue of getting out of the Underworld with Hook. The main cast was left listening to Henry's dramatic readings about breakfast rather than actually doing anything about their problem. Here again, you can have character interaction while they're doing something toward their goal. So if they'd shown us the buildup to the elevator spell instead of cutting straight to it after the "now we're going to go after Hades!" declaration, Regina and Emma could have talked while researching the spell. Hook could have been telling Belle about Liam while doing research or checking the elevator doors.

 

It was one thing in season one for Emma and Mary Margaret to hang out at the loft, chatting, when neither of them knew what was really going on or that they had to do something about it. It's weird for them to be hanging out at the loft when they're trapped in the Underworld.

[Mathius]

The problem with the complaints though, even now, is that getting out of the setting and returning to Storybrooke would change NOTHING.  The exact same problems would happen, the only difference being that they're trapped in Storybrooke and not whatever realm they're currently in.  It's especially ridiculous now: "this is boring, when are we gonna leave the Underworld and get back to Storybrooke?"  Seriously? Minus the red filter, what would be the bloody difference?

 

If Storybrooke was treated like a real town again and not just a backdrop for the latest crisis, maybe I'd understand and empathize more.  But the fact is, Storybrooke has been a boring, increasingly less populated place ever since 2B.

 

Hell, if anything, Underbrooke actually feels like more of a real, populated town than Storybrooke has in ages!

Edited April 15, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

I made a list pairing my favorite episode and least favorite episode of each arc. I probably won't share it until the end of S5, since I'd like to reserve my judgement for 5B. However, I did find interesting patterns. The worst episodes always seem to be mid-arc and centered around a side character. (Both of August's centrics made the list, lol!) Examples include The Bear and the Bow, Breaking Glass, and Child of the Moon. The pattern for the best episodes isn't as cemented, but typically they're game changers or centrics for the best guest stars. (Such as The Miller's Daughter or Sympathy for the DeVil.) Just my personal opinions.

 

I've got analyzing this show down to a science.

Edited April 15, 2016 by KingOfHearts