A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Mathius]

I'd rank 3a ahead because

1.) I'm obviously biased.

2.) 3a's weak link plot thread, David's poisoning, has NOTHING on 4a's weak link plot thread, the Regina/Robin/Marian/Henry/Operation Mongoose story of doom.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Mathius

[Dani-Ellie]

I'm going with 4A, because all the Emma screentime and Captain Swan development is making me giddy. Plus, I'm really surprised by how much I adore the Frozen gang, considering hadn't seen it at all when the season started and I've still yet to see it in its entirety.

 

The Outlaw Queen/Operation Mongoose stuff is, of course, rage-inducing, but it's being sidelined so much by the A-plots that I can easily ignore it. Which means I am fearing 4B, where I'm betting it's going to be front and center. ;)

[Mari]

One more thing in 4A's favor is we've yet to have a scene where Regina saves the day simply because her superpower is she gives absolutely no cares that she's killed, raped, and maimed her way through the last 30 odd years.

Of course, 4A does have THAT episode. Maybe they cancel each other out?

Edited December 1, 2014 by Mari

[Jean]

I put 4A right behind S1. It helps that I saw about 5 minutes of 4x05 and have been fast forwarding through most of the black hole's scenes. 4x09 was the first episode I was forced to watch her scenes cause it had to do with Elsa's story.

 

All of the Frozen characters and their story has been better than any of the main people and Arendelle was done way better than Neverland. Rumple's better in this arc than the Neverland arc. I like Ingrid a bit more than Pan. Best of all Save!Henry isn't a thing. In hindsight the only good things I can say about 3A are Robbie Kay and Going Home which was immediately tainted by 3B. Yet 3A comes out ahead of S2 and 3B by a mile.

[Joanh23]

I prefer 4A although I do rank Going Home as 1 of the best eps of OUAT.  I'm really liking that Emma is front and centre and I just love love all the CaptainSwan development.  I also think the DQ is a better villain than Pan.  Also a definite plus for 4A is that Regina is pretty much in the background although that does make me nervous for 4B….

[KingOfHearts]

4A is better to me simply because of Frozen. I thought 3A's concept of central character focus was brilliant, but its setting was boring. The story was slow, and though we got some character moments, only a handful of them actually meant anything on the overall. 4A has been kind of slow in some places with its pacing, but the only really tarnishing factor is Outlaw Queen. That's almost a deal breaker for me. Frozen, on the contrary, has definitely delivered when it comes to upping the show quality. 3A was a large improvement over 2B, but I don't find it as high quality as 4A.

 

 

I prefer 4A although I do rank Going Home as 1 of the best eps of OUAT.  I'm really liking that Emma is front and centre and I just love love all the CaptainSwan development.  I also think the DQ is a better villain than Pan.  Also a definite plus for 4A is that Regina is pretty much in the background although that does make me nervous for 4B….

I agree with this assessment. However, I think Regina was more in the background in 3A than 4A. She didn't even have a major storyline then, but now we've got the dreaded Woegina and Sobbin' Hood saga.

Edited December 1, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

All of the Frozen characters and their story has been better than any of the main people

That right there is the problem, though. The main people SHOULD be the focus of the show and they should be engaging. In 3a, they were, while in 4a, most of them are not save for Emma, Hook and Rumple. Charming and Snow, after getting a much-needed boost in 3a coming off of 2b, are now at their most dull and useless, Regina is at her most insufferable, and Belle is reaching new lows even for her. And even Henry with his Truest Stupid plot is better than Henry with his Operation Mongoose plot, and even Neal was more useful during that arc than his replacement Will Scarlet is in the current arc.

Really, out of the main cast only Emma is written better in 4a than in 3a, and she was pretty damn good (for the most part) in 3a too so that isn't very significant praise.

and Arendelle was done way better than Neverland.

Disagree. While I hated the perpetual night choice for Neverland, I like that it was doing something new and original, whereas Arendelle is lifted wholesale from "Frozen".

Rumple's better in this arc than the Neverland arc.

He's more entertaining, but I think he was more complex in the Neverland arc, with all his past issues laid bare and catching up to him as opposed to a simplistic desire for power.

I like Ingrid a bit more than Pan.

I think Pan was a better villain in the traditional sense, but I agree that Ingrid is the better character. As good as Robbie Kay was, I would never want him and Pan to overstay their welcome, whereas I want the show to keep Elizabeth Mitchell and Ingrid forever.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Mathius

[Jean]

 

That right there is the problem, though. The main people SHOULD be the focus of the show

I'm not going to lie, somewhere in 3B I got tired of all the main characters and I thought Rumple was being wasted. The 2 parter finale saved it along with the lure of Frozen. Somewhere in between S2 and S3 most of them lost their distinctive voices and what made them unique within the show. Now all the main characters just kind of all blend in together. (Except for the soul sucker, she stands alone in her non-ending victim Mary Sue-ness). What made Rumple unique in S1 has been lost and now he's pretty much a run of the mill Once villain. Robert's talent is about the only thing saving it.

 

 

Really, out of the main cast only Emma is written better in 4a than in 3a

I don't agree. I love Elsa/Emma and Emma/Ingrid, the only saving grace for Emma in 4A, but they are shallow relationships. As an individual character she's completely lost her voice. She basically turned into Snow Jr. and not the awesome version of S1. Now I know the characters have to grow and change but you can do it in a non cookie-cutter way. I feel the same way about Hook. He's grown and changed and as a consequence he lost a big chunk of personality along the way. That's a sure sign of a sucky writers/visions etc that they can't make that work.

 

That's part of the reason why I'm loving Ingrid and Anna so much this arc. Their voices stand out and is refreshing on this stale show full of stale characters. While I like Kristoff too, he's not that far off from the other characters. Same with Elsa.

 

 

He's more entertaining, but I think he was more complex in the Neverland arc,

What frustrates me about his Neverland arc is that it had so much potential and they didn't even begin to touch it. How can you not mine all the Carlyle/Kay goodness? It's the same way I feel about Emma in this arc with the Frozen crew. So I find the pure entertainment less rage inducing and would prefer it now vs seeing all the potential being wasted and imagine what could've been. The let down is bigger with the latter.

 

I wanted to keep Kay but I don't know what they could've done with Pan in their limited ability. I wouldn't mind him as another character.

 

 

I like that it was doing something new and original, whereas Arendelle is lifted wholesale from "Frozen".

A&E not being able to taint Arendelle was probably a good thing. There was no Neverland world building. Besides Pan, they could've said it was random Island of Doom and no one would know the difference.  They never bothered to do anything with the Neverland characters' relationships. Pan/Wendy, Pan/Hook, Pan/Tink, Hook/Tink etc were 2 scenes away from nonexistent. Did Pan and Tink even share a scene? Arendelle felt very much like its own distinct world but I'll admit that's probably because they got more airtime.

[Camera One]

Can anyone explain what was up with Regina's apology for being distracted from Operation Mongoose? As much as I detest what's going on with Robin and Regina, I would actually give her credit for trying to find happiness on her own rather than tracking down some Happy Ending God to demand her happy ending. What does finding the author have to do with the Shattered Sight Spell? 

 

It was very likely just another "reminder" that this subplot is still on-going.  All they've given Henry in 4A are actually scenes where he brings up Operation Mongoose, even though nothing has actually happened.  Henry working at Gold's shop has had zero result.  The only "forward movement" is when they had Robin and Will participate by searching for books in the library.  It was a total waste of screentime which could have been devoted elsewhere.

 

Even disregarding that this is the dumbest plotline ever, why did they feel the need to start it in 4A?  Why not just focus on Regina deciding which path she would follow, working on de-thawing Marion, and working through her feelings for Robin Hood?  I still find the Season 4 premiere bizarre, with Regina considering outright murder to backing off and basically being her 3B self, trying to be good.  They could have had Henry working at Gold's shop to feel closer to his father, but being a little pest getting in Gold's way.  Then, Henry's placement could eventually result in him finding out something which could help with the book quest later.

 

Frozen has been awesome, but as KingofHearts said, the utterly horrible non-Frozen stuff is a deal-breaker.  The Marion/Robin/Regina, Book quest, Rumple/Belle, Snow subplots have been horrendous, almost the worst it has ever been on this show, where all of the named characters have suffered for it.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

It was very likely just another "reminder" that this subplot is still on-going.

I don't understand why this plot it still going. Her revelation in 4x08 nullified it by saying she could write her own destiny, that nothing was set it stone. Or maybe it "proved" the book can be changed?

 

 

Frozen has been awesome, but as KingofHearts said, the utterly horrible non-Frozen stuff is a deal-breaker.  The Marion/Robin/Regina, Book quest, Rumple/Belle, Snow subplots have been horrendous, almost the worst it has ever been on this show.

 

I'd say everything in Storybrooke non-Frozen is as bad as 3B if not worse. (Probably worse.)

Edited December 2, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Frozen has been awesome, but as KingofHearts said, the utterly horrible non-Frozen stuff is a deal-breaker.  The Marion/Robin/Regina, Book quest, Rumple/Belle, Snow subplots have been horrendous, almost the worst it has ever been on this show, where all of the named characters have suffered for it.

 

Same here. That's why 3A still stands behind S1 as the best season for me. Despite some really good episodes, S3B and S2 were both overall bad, and I can't decide which was worse. I think 3B ultimately is the worst season, because it's pointless. They could have jumped from Going Home to New York City Serenade, to the season finale, and very little would have changed. 

 

S4 has been good, especially the Frozen/Snow Queen stuff, but it is sorely tainted by Outlaw Queen, and the fact that Emma has joined Snow in prostrating herself at Regina's feet. I do like the fact that Emma is getting some flashbacks and storylines, and Ingrid is probably the best villain since S2 Cora, and I've been liking most of the CS stuff, but that hasn't been enough. I feel that the overall writing (plotting, characterization, world-building, and internal consistency) still remains mediocre. 

Edited December 2, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Curio]

The curses on Once are pointless because there's no difference between the before and after. Nothing is really at stake.

 

There's been a lot of talk about the repetitiveness of all the curses on the show and how they don't actually hold any weight. I actually think the curses have had a larger impact than we like to give credit for, but the way they're being executed is becoming too predictable lately. 

 

The initial curse Regina did that brought everyone to Storybrooke was huge. It took away everyone from their homeland and brought them to a new world. It changed their personalities slightly because of the forgotten memories and brought Emma back into the Charmings' lives. And now literally everyone in Storybrooke wants to stay there and call it home. I don't think a curse will ever top that one in terms of having such a huge impact on the plot/direction of the show. But that was also the plot of the pilot/show, so I don't know how much I can actually credit the writers for that one.

 

The breaking of that first curse also deserves a huge nod for changing the direction of the show again, except this time it was bringing magic back into play. No matter how silly Season 2 got in some parts, there's no denying that bringing magic to Storybrooke has been hugely impactful on the series, especially since it has also enabled Emma to realize her full magical potential in later seasons.

 

Even though kidnapping Henry wasn't a curse, it had a huge impact on the direction of 3A. But then we get to Pan's curse at the end of 3A, which should have been a huge reset and should have had huge consequences. But the most we get out of that curse is Emma debating marrying Walsh and some new plaid clothing. Oh, and Regina cried about losing Henry for a little bit. Both of those things were reversed and forgotten now that Hook and Emma are a thing and Henry knows Regina is his mom again. And then the writers never really dug that deep into the lost year to make it meaningful.

 

Zelena's time travel spell actually had more weight to it than Pan's spell, since we still are feeling the ramifications of Emma's decision to bring back Marian and Hook and Emma physically altered the past. 

 

So now that we're approaching yet another "huge curse," it's no wonder everyone is rolling their eyes and calling the writers' bluff about any significant impact it might have on the characters going forward. If Adam & Eddy had the guts to really change up the formula like they did back in Season 1 or 2, I'd be excited for these last two episodes. A spell like "Shattered Sight" should have a huge impact on the series and future episodes, but I have a bad feeling it'll have just as much of an impact as Pan's spell - aka none. I challenge Adam & Eddy to prove me wrong, though.

[Mathius]

There was no Neverland world building. Besides Pan, they could've said it was random Island of Doom and no one would know the difference. They never bothered to do anything with the Neverland characters' relationships. Pan/Wendy, Pan/Hook, Pan/Tink, Hook/Tink etc were 2 scenes away from nonexistent. Did Pan and Tink even share a scene

You're missing the point of the story. Neverland was never meant to have world-building, it pretty much was supposed to be just an Island of Doom: an isolated place where the core cast have nowhere to run away from their issues.

And the other complaint just proves that you can't please everyone: I have seen many people complain about the Frozen arc for sacrificing the core cast and their relationships with each other in favor of the Frozen characters who aren't even going to stay the whole arc. And yet there are evidently people, like you, who complain about the opposite with the Neverland arc, where the core cast and their relationships got the limelight as opposed to half-season guest stars who won't matter afterward. Ironic, isn't it?

Same here. That's why 3A still stands behind S1 as the best season for me. Despite some really good episodes, S3B and S2 were both overall bad, and I can't decide which was worse. I think 3B ultimately is the worst season, because it's pointless. They could have jumped from Going Home to New York City Serenade, to the season finale, and very little would have changed

Quoted for total agreement.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

I don't understand why this plot it still going. Her revelation in 4x08 nullified it by saying she could write her own destiny, that nothing was set it stone. Or maybe it "proved" the book can be changed?

Yeah, I'm not getting this, either. She seemed to learn that she could write her own fate, but she still needs to find the author? And the impending curse of doom that's all going to tear them apart just shows how little she understands the concept of happy endings. It's not an ending until it's over. Otherwise it's just life, bad things are going to keep happening and it's what you make of it. Here she is thinking she's getting shafted by the author because her new boyfriend's wife didn't get killed, after all, but Snow and Charming's "happy ending" involved him nearly being forced to marry someone else while impersonating his evil twin, both of them being imprisoned and nearly executed multiple times, overcoming a memory spell and a sleeping curse, fighting a war, having to give up their daughter to have any hope of breaking a curse, being under a curse that kept them apart for 28 years, her being sucked through a portal to another world, him going under another sleeping curse, losing their grandson to Peter Pan, him being poisoned and nearly dying, them being separated from their daughter yet again, them nearly losing their son, and now they're facing yet another curse that could tear them apart even after their supposed happy ending. Yeah, they're together and happy with each other, but it's not like they haven't had to face obstacles, and they're the good guys. This whole plot is so stupid and it makes the characters look stupid for thinking this is even remotely a thing (then again, we are talking about Regina, Henry and Robin, so, well …)

 

The initial curse Regina did that brought everyone to Storybrooke was huge. It took away everyone from their homeland and brought them to a new world. It changed their personalities slightly because of the forgotten memories and brought Emma back into the Charmings' lives.

While that curse did set the plot in motion and changed the status quo in bringing Emma back to her parents, I don't think it really had any other impact. Once the curse broke, after the brief bit of "we are both" it seems to have settled down to them just being their fairy tale selves while knowing how to drive and use a cell phone. We didn't ever see them decide to stay in Storybrooke -- in fact, the last time the subject came up there was a lot of disagreement, and they ended up just deciding to grow the beans and decide later when there was actually a choice to be made. Aside from the brief torches and pitchforks moment, no one has reacted to what was done to them. They're not mad at Regina for uprooting their lives in the first place. I think they've griped more at Snow about Curse 2, and she let them keep their identities. No one seems mad at Snow for letting Regina go to be able to curse them. There were no complicated or awkward situations based on things that happened during the curse -- did anyone become friends in Storybrooke with someone who turned out to have been an Enchanted Forest enemy? Were Snow and David the only couple separated by the curse and forced to be with other people? Obviously some families were separated, given the "have you seen?" posters after the curse, but were those relationships altered by the separation and the time spent with other people? Since they apparently knew about fairy tales from their time thinking they were ordinary small-town Maine people, how do they feel about knowing that there are stories about them?

 

Then there was almost no adjustment when the curse was reversed and they were sent back home. They seem to have just picked up where they left off. We didn't get to see whether they tried to re-create anything they missed from our world. Were they having to act out kids' favorite movies for them when they wanted to watch them over and over but no longer had DVDs? Did Granny try to make lasagna from scratch with ingredients she could find in the Enchanted Forest? Did anyone question whether they should even have royalty?

 

The missing year had zero consequences. Hook seems to have been the only one who did something he was glad others forgot, but we haven't seen how Smee and the rest of the crew reacted to being ditched once they got their memories back. Otherwise, they just learned that Snow and David cast the curse and now share a heart and Regina and Robin decided they were less annoying to each other in this world (I guess because of the tattoo).

 

Generally, each curse or curse breaking just means a quick return to the status quo rather than truly changing things. You could watch the current season without knowing anything about the curse reversal or the missing year because the only thing that changed was who was mayor, and even there, Regina's still using the office when she feels like it.

[Jean]

 

You're missing the point of the story. Neverland was never meant to have world-building, it pretty much was supposed to be just an Island of Doom: an isolated place where the core cast have nowhere to run away from their issues.

Actually no. There was no point to go to Neverland and have Peter Pan then if it was supposed to be some generic place. And if that's the story, A&E completely missed the boat anyway. Emma's issues were the same ones she couldn't run away from being stuck in Storybrook in S1, S2, 3B and still in S4. In fact it was 3B that forced her to stop running away and how she got to that point was the time travel. Her experience in Neverland in no way contributed to anything. Rumple was forced to face his dad but they undid it with 3B and 4A and apparently his Neverland experience no longer counts for anything anymore. Snow got one scene to say she wanted to be a mommy and nothing else in the 11 episodes. The problem with "nowhere to run away from their issues" is they had those same issues before and after and Neverland did nothing to change or address any of it in a way that was different.

 

 

where the core cast and their relationships got the limelight as opposed to half-season guest stars who won't matter afterward. Ironic, isn't it?

No it isn't ironic. The fact that people all have different opinions is understood and doesn't need to be stated. There's a huge huge faction out there that are convinced Rumbelle is the greatest love story ever told after all. Or the faction that claims Snow is the most despicable being ever while Woegina is a saint and so on and so forth.

 

With the exception of Hook/Emma, the core cast's relationships were highlighted? Really? Where? They weren't doing anything but running around like chickens with their heads cut off. It's the exact same thing they did in Storybrooke and the Enchanted Forest multiple times over. There's no need to go to Neverland or anywhere just to have them do that. Neverland wasn't special in that regard. Emma and her parents got the same amount of time in Neverland about their family as they did in 2A and 3B and now 4A. Snow and Charming as a couple got way more material in the much despised 3B (on this board at least) than they did in 3A. Rumple and fake Belle had 1 scene that was copy and pasted 10 times over. The Charmings' dynamic with Woegina didn't change or grow. Snow and her got more material in 2B and 3B. Their break through conversation discussing their issues came in 3B. Emma and her got more in 3B and 4A. Nobody got anything with Henry that wasn't more in other arcs. Rumple and Neal got more airtime together but that wasn't hard to do anyway. And the stuff they got wasn't meaty. They never even got to discuss daddy/grandpa! Rumple/Hook had more stuff in 2A, 2B, and 4A. Rumple/Emma had more of a relationship and interactions in S1, S2, and even 3B. We can't even discuss Belle for the Neverland arc. Ok Woegina and Rumple got more time together where it was all about Woegina having to save mopey Rumple. I guess that was highlighted.

 

So where exactly is this "core cast relationships in the limelight" coming from vs the other arcs? It's not backed up by airtime or substantial material. Just Hook and Emma doesn't cut it as "core cast."

[Shanna Marie]

I have to give 4A the edge over 3A (actually, upon rewatching I ended up preferring even 2A to 3A) because 4A is telling more of a coherent story. The flashbacks are all telling the story of both Ingrid and the hat. Even the Emma flashback tied into the Ingrid story. The flashbacks directly set up the present-day story and they even did that nifty thing where the flashbacks became present and then flowed into the present Storybrooke story. In the present, Elsa has mostly served as a catalyst to bring Emma to the forefront. The hat and the Ingrid stories are twined in the past and may be again in the present. Hook's involvement in the Rumple/hat story gives him something to do other than be Emma's swain (that plot could have happened even if he hadn't been involved with Emma, just with a different setup). David had some backstory that had nothing to do with Snow. Remove the silly "why won't the book give me a happy ending" plot and the gag-worthy Robin and Regina plot, and this would have been a really good arc.

 

3A for me was more about potential than about execution. There's so much that could have been done, and it was entirely squandered. The flashbacks were more treated as thematic to reinforce that week's Valuable Lesson and didn't tell any kind of story. In the present, they just walked around in circles until they reached the big showdown, and then all the stuff that should have had far-reaching emotional implications was left by the wayside. It's very frustrating. They had a whole arc about Peter Pan, taking place in Neverland, with Captain Hook and a former Lost Boy as regular characters, but both Hook and Neal got fewer flashbacks than Regina. The only glimpse we got of the time both Hook and Bae/Neal were both in Neverland was that little vignette of Hook and Tink, and we never saw Hook and Bae together. We never got a look at Hook and Pan together during Hook's main time in Neverland, and we never saw Bae and Pan together. All the backstory that was relevant to the plot was told rather than shown. The last time we saw Hook and Bae, Bae had rejected Hook and Hook had turned him over to the Lost Boys, and yet here Hook tells us he knows where Bae lived. Hook tells us he got away from Neverland by making a deal with Pan, but we never see any of this, never learn the details behind it. The way Bae escaped was an actual plot point, but he tells us about it rather than us seeing it. Hook tells us the Echo Cave tore his crew apart, but we didn't get to see that or even see why they had to go into the cave in the first place. Emma comes to the realization that she's a Lost Girl, but we don't see that in her past.

 

They should have picked up the flashbacks after "Straight on 'Til Morning" and shown us how Bae got away from the Lost Boys, some of what his life on Neverland was like, how he and Hook apparently ended up reconciling and becoming friends, what the relationship between Pan and Hook was and what kind of work Hook had to do, how Hook got away and how Bae got away. They could have done something with the twists on the classic Peter Pan story while the Darlings were there -- in the book, Hook and the pirates capture Wendy, the Darlings and the Lost Boys, and the climactic battle occurs when Pan comes to their rescue. Here, they could have had Bae finding out about the Darlings and getting Hook and the pirates to help rescue them, so that the pirates are rescuing Wendy instead of kidnapping her (though she may not realize that), and Pan is coming to take back his captives instead of rescuing them, but we still get the iconic fight on the Jolly Roger. Emma's past could have been tied in, since the Shadow did recruit among kids who were lost, and wouldn't you have found that in a foster home? Emma might have seen the Shadow come for one of her foster brothers, and none of the adults would believe her, so she eventually decided it really was a dream and that he'd just run away (maybe her inspiration for running away) -- until she finds him, still a child, in Neverland. That could have been the kid she was able to turn to help them find Pan at the end.

 

The present would have been a little more difficult since the fun and exciting parts of Neverland from the book -- the pirates and the Indians -- weren't there, but if they had the swashbuckling action in the flashbacks, they really could have delved into all that character stuff in the present.

[KingOfHearts]

The issue with Neverbacks was that since the whole show had moved to Neverland, there had to be a familiar anchor to connect it with everything else in the show. We had to see Enchanted Forest and Storybrooke flashbacks to have continuity with the "normal" parts of the show. Since the premise is about SB and the EF characters, they had to show those two locations to keep it "Once Upon a Time" and clue the audience in that its the same show.

 

All that said, I would have loved to see a few more Neverbacks... like how Bae escaped. Did we really need that Hook and Tinkerbell flirty knife scene?

Edited December 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

The issue with Neverbacks was that since the whole show had moved to Neverland, there had to be a familiar anchor to connect it with everything else in the show.

I would hope that audiences could tell that if Snow, David, Regina, Emma, et. al., were still on the show, they were watching the same show, regardless of location. Neverland's as much a "storybook" location as the Enchanted Forest. I watch for the characters, not the setting, considering it's all filmed in more or less the same places.

 

But maybe the solution is that since past Neverland is a lot more interesting than present Neverland, Pan could have come to town instead of them going to Neverland. I guess escape isn't the issue then, but him trying to set up a new Neverland wherever he went using Henry's heart because the old Neverland had run out of magic could have worked, and then they'd have had to do the same things to escape the new Neverland. Or they could have done more with the present-day story in Storybrooke -- like letting Belle have time to think about what she'd recently seen and learned about Rumple and letting the others react to the town almost being destroyed by the failsafe. Not much was happening in the present in Neverland, so they could have touched on that and focused on the past story until things built to a climax in the present.

 

You could remove most, if not all, of the flashbacks during that arc and the story still would have made total sense. You might need the Tinkerbell flashback to explain why she's in Neverland (not that she did much of anything there, and really, do we need to explain Tink being in Neverland?) and to (unfortunately) set up the Outlaw Queen story, and the "Good Form" flashback was actually surprising new information about Hook's past that explained his present turnaround, and it set up the knowledge of the poison. I'm not sure we even needed to see Ariel's past with Snow to set up her present-day story. It's not a huge surprise that Regina might have taken a mermaid's voice at some point or that Ariel might be searching for Eric. We really didn't need to see Regina adopting Henry or Snow fighting Medusa.

 

In contrast, this season's flashbacks have been critical to setting up the present-day plot. Remove them, and the story doesn't make nearly as much sense.

[yeswedo]

Reminder that you can share your own opinion without telling others they are wrong to have their own opinions and why. And once you've made your point move on in the discussion. 

[Camera One]

I think that's pretty much the crux of the problem (for me). Let's forget for a moment whether or not these "disasters" (not just the curses) are meant to be representative of real life obstacles. Whether they are or aren't is beside the point. When it comes down to it, the way the writers treat all these major "disasters" is to have the characters running around, desperate because they are all about to die (or never see each other again). But in the end, when the magical dust settles, it's like nothing happened and the characters don't change in way commensurate will all the fretting, nail biting, pearl clutching, and "Oh, noes, we's doomed! I love you all!" good-byes. They take very little to nothing away from that experience. The writers manufacture all this drama, a huge build-up of "The End IS NIGH, but then the clock rolls over and, lo and behold, The Rapture never happened and it's "Oh, well. Back to work..." I can't take the characters or the story seriously (never mind the actual show) when that's how it plays out time after time.

 

Continuing from the discussion of Jennifer Morrison's analogy of the Curses being real-life problems.

 

In some ways, I don't mind having Curse after Curse ending a Half-Season.  I agree it's the lack of follow-through that's the problem, since these catastrophic events don't change the characters in any significant way.  I mean, they don't even change the PLOT in any way.  Look at how fast they completely erased the ramifications of "Going Home"... within one episode, it was same old same old.  My other problem is the lead-up to the catastrophic event/Curse.  As "good" as "Frozen" has been, it still was pretty much nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing nothing giant-pile-of-plot-movement in a single episode, which is what we got in "Fall", and we will no doubt get again next week. Plot-driven adventures are all fine and good, IF there is the joy of watching the protagonists piece together the clues and find ways to defeat the villain.  But as usual, it is right before the half-season end, and the protagonists have absolutely ZERO idea how to defeat the Snow Queen and stop/end the Shattered Sight Curse.  Just like they had no idea how they could get close enough to Zelena to take the pendant (and it was only an episode before when they even found out that pendant existed).  The characters are pretty much always just reacting.  

Edited December 3, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

The status quo of the characters has changed very little since 2B. It's a game of getting to be one big happy family in Storybrooke. Their overall goal as characters has scarce deviation. They may get all sorts of curses, but at the end of the day its just another lasagna party at Granny's. There's a few curve balls, like Charming's dreamshade poisoning or Emma getting snatched into a time portal, but they're resolved as quickly as the Threat of the Week.

 

Storybrooke is a neat concept, but doesn't work without conflict in itself. There may be external forces, but other than that the citizens are happy ducklings. Regina may throw a fit or Rumple might backslide, but that doesn't mean much when it just switches back on a dime. The cast and the show in general is just too unshaken.

Edited December 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Seriously, if Elsa didn't drop that necklace into the ice crevasse in Episode 2, she might have found Anna the next day.  Thank goodness Charming struck the Ice Wall, so the necklace could suddenly appear.  And thank goodness Elsa wished Anna was there while holding the necklace, and thank goodness Kristoff was holding Anna's hand, and thank goodness Elsa happened to make the wish while Anna and Kristoff were stuck in a trunk another world away.  A couple million stars were probably aligned for all this to happen.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Seriously, if Elsa didn't drop that necklace into the ice crevasse in Episode 2, she might have found Anna the next day.  Thank goodness Charming struck the Ice Wall, so the necklace could suddenly appear.  And thank goodness Elsa wished Anna was there while holding the necklace, and thank goodness Kristoff was holding Anna's hand, and thank goodness Elsa happened to make the wish while Anna and Kristoff were stuck in a trunk another world away.  A couple million stars were probably aligned for all this to happen.

And thank goodness Emma got stuck in a time portal with Hook, and thank goodness Hook got the right urn out of the Dark One's Vault. Thank goodness the urn flew into the portal so Elsa could enter Storybrooke. Thank goodness Anna's necklace was on display in Gold's shop in the wedding photo. This show is ridiculously contrived.

 

They're also going to need some way to get back to Arendelle, probably using the Wishing Star again. If world jumping is so easy, why don't more Storybrookers inquire about it?

Edited December 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

They weren't doing anything but running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

No, they weren't, save for "Lost Girl" (where they were being screwed with by Pan), "Save Henry" and "Going Home" (both of which were emergencies which warrant the running around, and the latter of which wasn't in Neverland.) In all the other episodes, they were actually planning and acting upon those plans. It all came together nicely in "Think Lovely Thoughts" and would have been successful if only Henry hadn't decided to be the Truest Stupid. That is literally the only reason they failed.

So where exactly is this "core cast relationships in the limelight" coming from vs the other arcs? It's not backed up by airtime or substantial material. Just Hook and Emma doesn't cut it as "core cast.

You have to consider where the core cast was at by the end of 2B. Barely anyone in it seemed to like each other, and the ones who did had major dysfunctions (Emma, Snow and Charming). Over the course of the Neverland arc, these relationships improved:

- Emma & Snow/Charming (Echo Cave notwithstanding)

- Emma & Hook

- Charming & Hook

- Emma & Regina

- Snow/Charming & Regina

- Regina & Rumple

- Neal & Rumple

- Neal & Emma

- Neal & Hook

- Henry & Regina

Every single one of those relationships were strained or antagonistic in 2B, whereas now they got sorted out and became more positive. The only ones that have become undone are Emma & Snow and Emma & Regina. The rest, even ones got more time in 3B like you say, got their starts in 3A. It's not a matter of airtime or even substantial material dedicated to just those relationships individually. It's a matter of a single scenario (being stuck on Neverland trying to save Henry) uniting them all.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Mathius

[Rumsy4]

Much as I enjoyed Ingrid and the Frozen characters, I am ultimately disappointed that they made Anna the all-around hero of this half-season. Not only did she impact the lives of core characters like Charming, Belle and Rumple back in the past, she was instrumental in defeating Ingrid in the present. If she hadn't brained her fiance with the bottle, read her mother's letter, and given that touching speech to Ingrid, Emma might have ended up with a Dark Spot in her heart for having killed Ingrid. :-p I joke, but Emma and Elsa should also have been a bigger part of Ingrid's final defeat. As it is, neither the removal of the ribbons, nor Emma's acceptance of her powers, were of much use in defeating the Snow Queen. For example, the ribbon on Ingrid's wrist could have magically transported itself onto Anna's wrist, and made Anna, Elsa, and Emma, the three sisters who defeated the Snow Queen together. Instead, it was all mostly exposition and monologuing on Anna's and Ingrid's part at the end. 

 

I wish Emma gets to play a bigger role in retrieving Hook's heart and thwarting Rumple's plan of cleaving himself from the Dagger. However, I feel that while she will succeed in the first objective, Rumple will manage to free himself from the Dagger. I did like the fact that the flashbacks were more integrated into the present day arc than in S3, but at the end of the day, the Anna flashbacks with Charming and Belle didn't serve the characters well. It's unbelievable that Anna was responsible for David's  complete character shift, and the Belle flashback made Belle look like a girl desperate to be a hero because she felt partly responsible for Anna's disappearance. Anna's history with Rumple was the most interesting flashback of all, and I think she will play a part in the resolution of the Hat arc as well. All this would have been fantastic if the Frozen people were staying beyond the half-season. As is, I feel that too much of the weight of the plot was carried by Anna (great first job for the actress--she did a fantastic job!). A strange choice, and it makes it seem like A&E prefer writing for new characters than their own. 

[Camera One]

Emma and Elsa should also have been a bigger part of Ingrid's final defeat.

 

It was just really awkward with them standing there in that big climatic scene.  We don't even know if Emma and Elsa had the means to kill Ingrid.  We just know they couldn't bring themselves to hurt her because even without their memories, they felt some love for her?  

 

As Mathius said in the episode thread, the whole ribbon-breakage thing was SOLELY to set Regina free to have that ostentatious fight with Snow.  That made the whole scenario extremely contrived.  

 

 

it makes it seem like A&E prefer writing for new characters than their own.

 

That's not surprising, unfortunately.  Look how much screentime Zelena ate up in 3B.  They seemed to have learned a lesson in that we got a little less of the Snow Queen, which made her much more palatable.  Or maybe it was a fluke that she turned out so well (Elizabeth Mitchell played a hand in that as well).  New characters to A&E are like shiny new toys. 

When Henry got the job at his shop, I thought for sure he'd find the hat or dagger. That possibility is getting a bit grim. I'm starting to wonder they even started that plot line. Who knows, maybe I'll be surprised and it's a Chekhov's Gun.

 

In 3A, because the entire setting was in Neverland and we hardly saw Storybrooke, they didn't have this problem of having to stall a storyline.  But because 4A and presumably 4B are both in Storybrooke, there is this new problem of pointless setup.  I'm assuming the Henry-store stuff and Operation Mongoose will continue.  But the way it was just tacked on in 4A was annoying, repetitive and a waste of time, time which could very well have been spent on character moments and fleshing out what we did see.  They could have had Henry dealing with losing his dad and gravitating towards Rumple, while Regina's screentime could have been devoted to fleshing out Robin as a character.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm assuming the Henry-store stuff and Operation Mongoose will continue.  But the way it was just tacked on in 4A was annoying, repetitive and a waste of time, time which could very well have been spent on character moments and fleshing out what we did see.

Sort of like Will... and Outlaw Queen...  and pretty much everything in 4A Storybrooke that isn't Frozen. So much filler. I'm a little worried 4B is going to be too jampacked with all the plots they've been putting on hold for it. But knowing this show, those stories won't get the kind of addressing we think they will. (Sort of like Emma and her parents in 2A when it got pushed back to 2B. Everyone expected it to be dealt with in the next arc, but it wasn't effectively.)

 

 

As Mathius said in the episode thread, the whole ribbon-breakage thing was SOLELY to set Regina free to have that ostentatious fight with Snow.  That made the whole scenario extremely contrived.

 

This. The ribbons were utterly pointless when you think about it. They did nothing but give Ingrid an extra 15 minutes. She didn't even really need them since she had the memory rocks that would supposedly make them love her.

Edited December 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

I'm assuming the Henry-store stuff and Operation Mongoose will continue.  But the way it was just tacked on in 4A was annoying, repetitive and a waste of time, time which could very well have been spent on character moments and fleshing out what we did see.  They could have had Henry dealing with losing his dad and gravitating towards Rumple, while Regina's screentime could have been devoted to fleshing out Robin as a character.

Yes.  And what was the point of bringing Marian back?  The only thing it really did was drive a wedge between Emma and Regina--and they could have done that simply by having Emma freaked out because she just saw Regina burn her mother at the stake.  It would make for a nice change in dynamic for Regina to try and make amends/friends with someone, instead of the usual "Suck up to Regina while she displays no qualities whatsoever that make that make sense."

 

Relationship drama with Robin could easily have followed, then, by having him actually see his bold and audacious relationship partner in action during the farcical curse they just had  and being . . unsettled that his beloved Evil Queen was actually-who'd've guessed it--evil.  Relationship drama ensues.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yes.  And what was the point of bringing Marian back?

If Marian hadn't been frozen almost this whole arc, then I could see the point... but she's been put on the backburner. Outlaw Queen is going full throttle, and everyone's cool with it. Even if they wake her up, there's no stopping what's already been happening. Robin will just tell her he's leaving her for her hot murderer, and that's that.

 

 

Relationship drama with Robin could easily have followed, then, by having him actually see his bold and audacious relationship partner in action during the farcical curse they just had  and being . . unsettled that his beloved Evil Queen was actually-whod'v'e guessed it--evil.  Relationship drama ensues.

I like this scenario, and it would have saved Robin from becoming an idiotic jerk. At least his "code" and "dignity" would still be intact. We wouldn't have gotten that Emma vs. Regina enemy/BFF crapfest either.

 

 

I think that's why it's so hard to abandon this show.  It's like all the pieces are there most of the time.  Rearranging it a bit would make it so much more awesome.  But it's always a piece of shattered glass duct-taped together.

What intrigues me about Once is the amazing potential. Whenever I watch or discuss this show, my mind is always flowing with possible scenarios and theories. The actual content isn't very interesting, but the meta is what brings it home to me. It's what it could be and what the fans make it. It's boring with terrible writing, but there are too many diamonds in the rough to ignore. It's just a fascinating show.

Edited December 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

It was just really awkward with them standing there in that big climatic scene. We don't even know if Emma and Elsa had the means to kill Ingrid. We just know they couldn't bring themselves to hurt her because even without their memories, they felt some love for her?

As Mathius said in the episode thread, the whole ribbon-breakage thing was SOLELY to set Regina free to have that ostentatious fight with Snow. That made the whole scenario extremely contrived.

Exactly. Emma and Elsa were a necessary presence there, since without them Ingrid would have successfully just frozen Anna, and the letter with her. But they still didn't do much of anything in terms of actions, and getting the ribbons off was incredibly pointless since they didn't use their powers on Ingrid anyway, and was just a plot device to break Regina out.

In 3A, because the entire setting was in Neverland and we hardly saw Storybrooke, they didn't have this problem of having to stall a storyline.

Yet another reason why I didn't give much of a damn about the repetitive sets filled with potted plants and wasn't a part of the "we want Storybrooke!" crowd...the writing was actually better off for it.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yet another reason why I didn't give much of a damn about the repetitive sets filled with potted plants and wasn't a part of the "we want Storybrooke!" crowd...the writing was actually better off for it.

One thing I wish the Neverland arc would have done is put in more Lost references. An ensemble cast being stranded on an island with hostiles (Others/Lost Boys) led by a mind games entity (Jacob/Ben/Pan) is just too big of a parallel to pass up. I'm not saying they should have put DHARMA stations everywhere, of course... just a little bit of allusions here and there. Vague similarities in the plot would have sufficed. 

 

Maybe it was intended, but the jungle scenes all felt so artificial. There wasn't really much of a fight for survival. Heck, their clothes were perfectly clean the whole way through.

 

Well now that I think about it, the Shadow masquerading as Belle was very Smoke Monster...

Edited December 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

Heck, they should have just gone back to the actual LOST island...or at least any real island instead of a sound-stage set.  It would have kept more people invested in Neverland, not to mention allow for some actual daylight (I still see no good reason for perpetual night.) 

[Mathius]

OK, so the general consensus on these boards and beyond is that Season 1 was this show at its best, and that it went downhill from there.  So we've had two full seasons that have disappointed many people (and are almost halfway done with another).  But putting aside disappointments, which of these two seasons was better overall?  Season 2 or Season 3?  

 

They are both remarkably similar in how they're structured and how most fans reacted to them: the "A" part (9 episodes in S2 and 11 in S3) involved characters adventuring in other realms beyond Storybrooke which frustrated and disappointed many while it was airing but was still deemed OK in the end, while the "B" part (13 episodes in S2 and 11 in S3) involved the heroes fighting wicked witches in Storybrooke and angering so many fans by the time it was through that they thought even better of the previous "A" part by comparison! 

 

So, when adding A and B together, which of these two seasons stands better as a whole?

Edited December 9, 2014 by Mathius

[FabulousTater]

I require a "They are equally bad but for different reasons" option. That's my final answer.

Edited December 9, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KingOfHearts]

This is a tough one for me.

 

I like 2A over 3A, but I think 2B is far worse than 3B. Some might say 3B was the worst arc because its so boring, but it didn't assassinate characters left and right like 2B did. While 3A is a decent arc, 2A is closer to my heart. It was before the "fall". I'll go with Season 3 slightly above Season 2 overall after weighing the different halves.

Edited December 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

But wasn't perpetual night because the island was dying or something or do I have this mixed up with something else?

[Shanna Marie]

I'd also go with 2A vs. 3A but 3B vs. 2B.

 

I might give 3 a slight edge overall because 3B wasn't nearly as bad as 2B.

 

Regina having the most powerful light magic ever while being an unrepentant murderer was probably the show's official jump the shark moment, but Snow spiraling into guilt for having killed the villain who was on the verge of becoming a super-powerful evil dictator while the "heroes don't kill people" line was allowed to go unchallenged, followed by Regina getting hailed as a hero for undoing the spell to destroy the whole town that she set up in the first place with the intent of killing everyone in town were just plain bad.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But wasn't perpetual night because the island was dying or something or do I have this mixed up with something else?

You're correct. In the flashbacks (Good Form and Think Lovely Thoughts), Neverland was in the day. Pan was siphoning all its magic to himself so he could have eternal youth, draining it dry. The night was probably symbolic of Pan's descent into darkness.

Edited December 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

I'll go ahead and say my piece: to me, Season 3 was better than Season 2. I felt that both its A and B parts were better than the A and B parts of Season 2, and despite 3A and 3B not connecting that well with each other (or 3B even connecting that well to its own finale!), I felt that they was still all thematically unified by the theme of "Home", even if that theme was undeniably written problematically (especially Emma and her New York angst.)

3A I felt was better than 2A because its story actually had a lead-in from Season 2's finale, whereas Emma and Snow being sucked into the Enchanted Forest came completely out of left field in the Season 2 premiere. I felt 3A had no real "filler" episodes (though "Lost Girl" and "Good Form" come close), while 2A had the inexcusable waste that was "Child of the Moon". I enjoyed seeing the core characters interact, develop, and work together as a team as opposed to the seperation in 2A, and it had a nice balance of all characters having their uses but some doing better in Neverland than others (Emma, Hook, Regina and Neal >>> Snow, Charming, Rumple and Tink.) Also, I was glad to be away from Storybrooke for a while.

Finally, I think Peter Pan was a better villain than Cora. Barbara Hershey was amazing, but if you take that away she's just a typical power-hungry evil matriarch, and the heroes being outmached simply because she was constantly no-selling them with her overpowered magic was annoying. While Robbie Kay was fantastic as Pan, even if you took him away you're left with a better-written adversary. While some complain about how he talked way more than take action, I thought that was a good way of avoiding the issue Cora had, plus there was both a good personal reason for it (he's a sadistic kid who likes to prolong his "games" with his enemies, and so arrogant that he believes he can get away with it since he'll win in the end anyway), and plot-based reason (his power is weaker than it once was due to the hourglass running low and he doesn't want anyone to know about this). I like how competent he was, being effectively manipulative at first but still being aware enough to know when it had stopped being effective and switching to re-doubling his efforts on Henry, the most important target, rather than uselessly mess with the heroes anymore. Finally, I'm one of the people who liked the twist of him being Rumple's father, so there.

With 3B, it's really difficult to call it better than 2B since there is just so much that is wrong with it. However, I still think it edges out over 2B for one main reason: it knew the story it was telling. It was told horribly, but it was told straight and it was simple: the heroes try to stop the Wicked Witch from completing her master plan, which turns out to be a time travel spell. With 2B, there is no such coherence. It starts off as a direct continuation from 2A, but then Greg crashes into town and it suddenly branches off into a whole bunch of subplots: finding Baelfire, Anton the Giant and the magic beans, Cora wanting to become the Dark One, Belle's amnesia and change into Lacey, Greg and Tamara's dumbass "Home Office" mission, the black spot on Snow's heart...oh, and while we're at it, let's bring August back just to kill him off in the most absurd way possible! It was a disjointed mess. The subplots in 3B: Snow's pregnancy, Henry's lost memories, Regina and Robin Hood, Neal's fate, Hook's cursed lips...they may have been written poorly, but they all tied back to the Wicked Witch story. Only Emma's New York angst had nothing to do with it, instead being a focus for the season finale which had very little to do with the Wicked Witch plot save for the time travel spell itself.

So, while it was far from perfect, I feel Season 3 was a definite improvement over Season 2.

I require a "Both are equally bad but for different reasons" option. That's my final answer.

Sorry, I'm not letting anyone off that easily! ;P

Edited December 9, 2014 by Mathius

[Mathius]

I know that was the reason, but as I said, it wasn't a very GOOD one. Pan's magic and Neverland's magic were linked, but they weren't one in the same. Pan's whole scheme was to make them one in the same by absorbing Neverland's magic through pure belief with the Heart of the Truest Believer. Until that happened, what happened to his magic shouldn't have affected Neverland to the extent of eternal night.

[KingOfHearts]

Finally, I think Peter Pan was a better villain than Cora.

 

Replying in Villains thread.

[doxamully]

This is a tough one for me.

 

I like 2A over 3A, but I think 2B is far worse than 3B. Some might say 3B was the worst arc because its so boring, but it didn't assassinate characters left and right like 2B did. While 3A is a decent arc, 2A is closer to my heart. It was before the "fall". I'll go with Season 3 slightly above Season 2 overall after weighing the different halves.

I completely agree. I think 2B is by far the worst of the show, it was just so bleh. But I actually have an unpopular opinion of truly loving 2A. I thought it was fun and exciting. I love it up through Manhattan and then after that...oh boy it's bad. Season 3 is more even for me, but at least it lacks the awfulness of 2B.

[retrograde]

I like 2A and 3A pretty even, but I dislike 2B so much this isn't even a debate for me. I can still watch 3B and enjoy quite a bit of it (if not the main arc). As KingOfHearts said, its greatest sin is being boring. I can't even watch most of 2B.

[KingOfHearts]

I love 2A all the way up to Queen of Hearts. The Cricket Game killed it violently for me. Some of the episodes in the rest of season were fine (like The Miller's Daughter, Lacey), but other than that it's unwatchable. I started a major rewatch before S4 started and plowed right through S1 and 2A. Once I got to Cricket Game, I just stopped. It was that bad. It's the only episode I truly hate with a passion.

Edited December 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[yeswedo]

The Season 2 vs. Season 3 comparison and poll have been merged into the All Seasons thread. Continue to vote and discuss the various seasons here!

[Camera One]

It's tough for me to choose between Season 2 vs. Season 3 as well.  Both were interspersed with some good stuff here and there, but both also suffered from a lot of the same problems, and both had some truly show-destroying moments.

 

2B and 3B are for sure worse than 2A and 3A, there is no question about that.  On paper, 2B (which I consider "The Cricket Game" onwards) was worse because that was the first time we had experienced the show being that bad.  It was in 2B where it became clear the writers had no intention of exploring the people of Storybrooke and the ramifications of the Curse ending.  As others have said, it was all over the place, first with the Cora arc and then with the Tamara/Home Office crap.  It was when they started chipping away at Snow as a character, both in the flashbacks, and especially in the present-day, by demonizing her for outwitting and defeating a villain.  It was the first time they did a 180 flip-flop with Regina.  3B was bland, but in some ways, that was worse because it was so deathly boring.  The Zelena Show, the Regina Pity Party, the letdown of how they completely reversed the ramifications of the 3A finale "Going Home".

 

I enjoyed 2A's Enchanted Forest stuff overall.  It was nice to see Snow and Emma interacting, but even that lacked substance after the scene in the nursery.  Once the momentum got going, the Burning Room was fun with Regina and Rumple working together to help Charming speak to Snow.  However, the Storybrooke components weren't that well done.  They should have given Charming a centric.  The flashbacks were all over the place with no consistent theme.  

 

The advantage for 3A for me is it had some of my favorite moments... the Snow/Emma scene in "Lost Girl" and the climax in "Going Home".  That could have been the series finale for sure.  I liked 3A the first time I watched it, but the rewatch was a real letdown.  Watching it was a chore and the episodes dragged.  Watching after the fact also revealed what a disappointment it was.  The promise of having more with Emma and her parents (the main reason I watch the show) evaporated after "Lost Girl".  In fact, 3A was when they destroyed the Snow/Emma relationship by opening wounds like the Echo-Cave, and simply not dealing with it.  They segregated Snow and David in the Dreamshade-consequence C Plot, and gave all of Emma's screentime to the love triangle.  That made rewatching 3A emotionally very unsatisfying.  I did like watching everyone working together on a common mission, and I liked that the show slowed down, and I guess one could say it was better than 2B and 3B, but that's not saying much.  

 

And then, to throw it out there, 4A.  This was the Jekyll and Hyde season.  The Frozen/Snow Queen stuff and generally anything to do with Emma (with the exception of 4x5) was well done.  But the other "half" of the show had the exact same problems as 3B and was arguably even worse, maybe even at 2B levels.

 

So in conclusion, for me, all of these were full of tantalizing smells, and even quality ingredients, but mixed together and cooked into a porridge, where one spoonful might actually taste kinda good, but the next would be horrid, but each bowl is equally questionable overall.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Camera One

[Mathius]

I love 2A all the way up to Queen of Hearts. The Cricket Game killed it violently for me. Some of the episodes in the rest of season were fine (like The Miller's Daughter, Lacey), but other than that it's unwatchable. I started a major rewatch before S4 started and plowed right through S1 and 2A. Once I got to Cricket Game, I just stopped. It was that bad. It's the only episode I truly hate with a passion.

Um, "Queen of Hearts" is the end of 2A, as it was the Winter Finale.

2B began with "The Cricket Game", so it literally started off on the wrong foot.

So in conclusion, for me, all of these were full of tantalizing smells, and even quality ingredients, but mixed together and cooked into a porridge, where one spoonful might actually taste kinda good, but the next would be horrid, but each bowl is equally questionable overall.

Am I wrong if I say that this perfect description of the show is exactly why I still watch it?

Edited December 10, 2014 by Mathius

[Souris]

What intrigues me about Once is the amazing potential. Whenever I watch or discuss this show, my mind is always flowing with possible scenarios and theories. The actual content isn't very interesting, but the meta is what brings it home to me. It's what it could be and what the fans make it. It's boring with terrible writing, but there are too many diamonds in the rough to ignore. It's just a fascinating show.

 

This and another post I saw about the show having all the right puzzle pieces completely sum up this show. It's like this puzzle that when put together correctly, makes an absolutely beautiful picture. But A&E have taken the pieces and put them together not exactly right, jamming together some pieces that don't fit, losing a few pieces and maybe turning a few wrong-side-up. There are enough pieces in the correct places that you can tell what the picture SHOULD look like, and even without the reference picture to go by, you know it would be beautiful -- but it's off and incomplete.

 

Or, spurred by the previous quoted message, this show is Rachel's Thanksgiving trifle from "Friends" -- part trifle, part shepherd's pie. 

Edited December 10, 2014 by Souris

[Rumsy4]

Or, spurred by the previous quoted message, this show is Rachel's Thanksgiving trifle from "Friends" -- part trifle, part shepherd's pie.

Hah! Maybe that's the clue. The pages in the writers' room keep getting stuck together; hence we seem to be missing important pieces of the picture.

[Shanna Marie]

I think, ranking all the seasons/half seasons from best to worst, my order would be:

 

1) All of season one. Tight arcs in the present and in the backstories, building up to a climax. Some slow spots, but few things that made me want to throw things at the TV.

2) Assuming they don't totally screw up the next episode and resolve even the plots that had nothing to do with her with Regina suddenly farting magical rainbows, 4A -- we're back to using the flashbacks to tell a coherent story that's woven with the present. The Outlaw Queen stuff was painful, but I liked most of the rest, and I liked using the Snow Queen/Frozen story as a smokescreen for the real danger that is Rumple. They'd better not screw up the conclusion of that.

3) 2A -- I was rather disappointed when this first aired because it wasn't what I wanted it to be. I'd been looking forward to seeing the aftermath of the curse. But now I really enjoy the Team Princess arc. We got to see Snow back as her sassy badass self on her home turf, David finally had something to do back home, Regina was showing tiny signs of self awareness, and I think they handled the introduction of Hook very well.

4) 3A -- it's rather boring upon rewatch because they mostly wander around until they suddenly resolve it all, but there were some good episodes and the character interaction was interesting. Great villain in Pan. Wonderful conclusion. But so, so many missed opportunities, and most of the flashbacks were a total waste of time.

5) 3B -- a few bright spots, especially the finale, but Regina suddenly saving the day with the most powerful light magic ever while not having a heart, and looking like the infamous Tinkerbell Jesus while doing so might have been a Jump the Shark moment. So much wasted opportunity with the Missing Year.

6) 2B -- when it all went straight to hell. Random villains and plot lines introduced and then dropped. The beginning of St. Woegina the victim. Snow becomes a shadow of her former self and a wimp instead of a sassy bandit. The morality starts warping severely. I think the huge turning point was the moment they zoomed in on Regina's sad face and we were supposed to feel sorry for her that she didn't get invited to join the people she'd just spent decades tormenting for the first dinner they'd ever been able to have together as a family, and it was framed as though we were supposed to think they were bad people for not inviting her. That moment was a harbinger of doom.