A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[scarynikki12]

I'd be satisfied with Emma being in the Frozen sequel and the BFFs to continue.

[Camera One]

Can you imagine if Adam and Eddy hijack the "Frozen 2" animated movie, and the whole plot ends up revolving around a newcomer named Emma who comes to visit Elsa, but soon ships carrying the Evil Queen, Rumplestiltskin, the Snow Queen, Zelena, Peter Pan and Cora arrive, and they wreak havoc in Arendelle threatening to destroy the entire kingdom?  The movie ends with Elsa and Anna kindly asking Emma to leave and take the pestilence with her.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Can you imagine if Adam and Eddy hijack the "Frozen 2" animated movie, and the whole plot ends up revolving around a newcomer named Emma who comes to visit Elsa, but soon ships carrying the Evil Queen, Rumplestiltskin, the Snow Queen, Zelena, Peter Pan and Cora arrive, and they wreak havoc in Arendelle threatening to destroy the entire kingdom?  The movie ends with Elsa and Anna kindly asking Emma to leave and take the pestilence with her.

If it involves the Once cast singing, then I'll reserve a ticket the day they're available. (Once just needs more singing. Period.)

Edited November 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I have a soundtrack listing:

 

"Frozen Plucked Squished Black Spot Heart"

"Do You Want To Build a Curse (Since Anyone Can Do It)?"

"For The First Time Since The Last Half Season"

"Megavillains Go Out The Open Door"

"Let It Go The Writing Isn't Going To Get Any Better"

"That Poor Regina" (sung by the townspeople)

"I Was Such a Brat"

[stealinghome]

I remember the pilot. Charming running with a baby in his arms while cutting down black knights before he was cut down. I never really thought it was super violent but most of the stuff has been incredibly tame in comparison and even tamer. I wonder if it's not a network dictate since it's about fairytales and it's Disney and an 8pm slot. I think the most skin we saw was when Emma spilled coffee all over herself and had to change her shirt, when she meets Ashley.

I think Season 1 had both the most violence AND the most skin--I've always said that they kiddified the show from S2 on and that's one of the big sticking points for me. Emma took her shirt off in 'Price of Gold,' but one of the 1A episodes also featured Jamie Dornan in just underwear (and didn't we also see Regina like putting her clothes back on after one of the "council meetings" at Granny's?). Now granted Dornan has the body of a Greek god, but that was by far the most skin we've ever seen on this show, and by far the most explicitly sexual situation.

Also agree that the pilot sword fight and James' death are among the most violent of the fight scenes. Wasn't there also a lot of blood when Red tore Peter to shreds? At any rate, I think they toned the sex down a lot post-S1, and the violence after 2A.

[KingOfHearts]

S1 definitely felt more human. They were fairy tale characters, but they were also real people with real issues. The first season dealt with child custody, an adultery scandal, teen pregnancy, child abuse, murder, and countless other adult situations. After the curse broke, the show totally ditched realism in favor of fantasy, and in the process lost a lot of its mature tone. It sugarcoated things, Disney-style. This caused a lack of relevance to the audience and a lack of organic storytelling.

Magic ruined it, I tell you.

Edited November 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I definitely think the violence took a more cartoonish turn after the first season. There was actual blood then -- real consequences -- and good guys were allowed to use the points of their swords and fight for their lives.

 

Then they developed the "heroes don't kill people, ever" attitude, and swords could only be used defensively to fend off other people's swords, and instead the real weapons in a sword fight were elbows and the sword hilt. Even in the fight between Hook and Blackbeard, there was no real blood drawn, with Blackbeard being defeated by a loose board in the ship.

[Mathius]

S1 definitely felt more human. They were fairy tale characters, but they were also real people with real issues. The first season dealt with child custody, an adultery scandal, teen pregnancy, child abuse, murder, and countless other adult situations. After the curse broke, the show totally ditched realism in favor of fantasy, and in the process lost a lot of its mature tone. It sugarcoated things, Disney-style. This caused a lack of relevance to the audience and a lack of organic storytelling.

Magic ruined it, I tell you.

This is what happens when the most vocal voices, who were calling for less real-life stuff and more fairy tale stuff, are adhered to...the other half of the audience gets lost. Edited November 20, 2014 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

 

Please, let's be real here. It's not the justice system or the sheriffs that let everyone get away with murder IT'S THE WRITERS.

There is no justice system in Storybrooke because the writers have no justice system themselves. (Well, they do, but it's a whacked out one.) Nothing on the show has rules, including the police department. There's no method of investigation or anything of the sort. It's all make-up-as-you-go-along. Why? Because the writers don't want to answer to any rules themselves. Granted this is fairytales where anything can happen, and limits don't exactly apply, but Storybrooke is set in the real world. That's the whole premise of the show. When it has no difference from the Enchanted Forest, it loses a lot of the intrigue. (Wonderland suffered from this because it was all fantasy, no reality.)

 

When there are no rules, there's no guessing how something's going to turn out. It's all just waiting for a deus ex machina to come in to save the day with its magical powers. This takes away a huge chunk of what made the show special in S1. We as the audience have less and less to relate to or grasp on. Maybe some people like the randomness, but personally I prefer some bare minimum ground to stand on.

Edited November 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Nothing on the show has rules, including the police department. There's no method of investigation or anything of the sort. It's all make-up-as-you-go-along. Why? Because the writers don't want to answer to any rules themselves. Granted this is fairytales where anything can happen, and limits don't exactly apply, but Storybrooke is set in the real world. That's the whole premise of the show. When it has no difference from the Enchanted Forest, it loses a lot of the intrigue.

I don't think the problem is so much the lack of real-world stuff (though when that's part of the premise, you need to use it). It's that when you're writing fantasy, even if it's "secondary world" fantasy where the real world doesn't come into the picture, it's actually more important to ground the things that you can so that the fantasy seems realistic (and I write fantasy for a living, so I'm not just being a critical fan here). That's why you need to build your world -- you need an economic system, some sense of the political and justice system, some sense of what the religion is or what the generally agreed-upon code of ethics is and where it's derived from, and the magic needs to have some kind of set of rules and, preferably, limitations. I don't just mean saying "magic comes at a price, dearie," but actual costs for using it. Is it an energy drain? Does it require a set of incantations or ingredients? Does it only work in certain places? Does it take time off your life because it uses your life force? If your magic users can just wave their hands and get what they want, your stakes are awfully low. It seems like magic only comes at a price if you're making a deal with Rumple. Otherwise, just wave your hand. It doesn't even seem like doing magic makes anyone tired.

 

But I think most important is that the human equation needs to ring true, and that's where this show really fails. Human beings get mad when they've been wronged, whether the wrong is done magically or through a con scam. Some people are able to rise above it and forgive, but they tend not to trust those people again unless there's been some serious contrition. So while it makes sense that the justice system in a small town in Maine wouldn't be able to deal with Regina's fairy tale-level crimes, it doesn't make sense that everyone is now totally okay with her and that the people she hurt the most eagerly want to be her friends. When we don't get to see characters' emotional responses to anything, they don't seem like real people. Snow has become a paper doll who spouts dialogue because she bears no resemblance to a human being anymore. She's not allowed to miss her daughter when she's ripped away from her for the second time in her life, she's forced to prop up the person who tried to ruin her life, she's forced to spout platitudes that go against everything we've seen her stand for previously in service of the plot.

 

When everything is random and they use the "it's a fairy tale!" excuse, then there's nothing left to ring true.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't think the problem is so much the lack of real-world stuff (though when that's part of the premise, you need to use it). It's that when you're writing fantasy, even if it's "secondary world" fantasy where the real world doesn't come into the picture, it's actually more important to ground the things that you can so that the fantasy seems realistic (and I write fantasy for a living, so I'm not just being a critical fan here).

I agree. Fantasy worlds need rules and limits. They need structure to make them believable and more attainable to the audience. Putting the real world aside for a moment, Once is odd in its genre in that magic can be conjured anywhere. Most worlds need tools (staffs, wands) or potions for their magic, or when it can be conjured it's only by extremely strong special forces (Like Sauron). If Regina, Rumple, and Cora were the only magic users, then it'd be special. But since Zelena, Emma, The Apprentice, Pan, the Snow Queen and Elsa all have it, it becomes more of an overused contrivance. The more its used, the less the "laws" are imposed. Magic loses its uniqueness and becomes more of a crutch not only for the characters, but largely for the writers. When they don't know how to get out of the situation they put themselves into, they concoct a way that makes little to no sense. (Like Snow's heart splitting...)

 

It's not that heavy use of wizardry is bad, but it's that the writers run over it like a freight train and abuse it for their own interests. (Like Regina's light magic and her TLK, or frozen Marian. So much convenience.)

 

 

When everything is random and they use the "it's a fairy tale!" excuse, then there's nothing left to ring true.

That excuse is like saying the show is a kid's show, and it's not supposed to be. It's supposed to be a deep adult show for families to enjoy together. The campy stuff is fun, but I feel there should be a balance with more maturely-toned stories as well. In S1 it was an adult show with kid elements, but now it's like a kid show with adult elements.

Edited November 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Once is odd in its genre in that magic can be conjured anywhere. Most worlds need tools (staffs, wands) or potions for their magic, or when it can be conjured it's only by extremely strong special forces (Like Sauron).

 

You both summarized it so well.  The world-building is non-existent in Storybrooke (there is no way that there would be so little crime if everyone from the Enchanted Forest was brought over, and there is no interest in exploring how that society can possibly run after the first Curse broke), and extremely inconsistent in regards to magic.  They provided a lot of limits in regards to the power of wise-sage type characters like the Blue Fairy.  But the baddies like Rumple, Regina, Zelena or Cora could pretty much do anything.  I mean, look at the Snow Queen, who is arguably one of the better written half-season villains.  Why did they need her to be able to apparate out of nowhere, do telekinesis (eg. getting the mirror out of Regina's coat) and strangle people without touching them? (all examples from "Breaking Glass").  These powers have nothing to do with ice or Elsa's powers from the animated movie.  The villains are all jack of all trades, and this hasn't changed in 4A.  

 

And then there's the human equation Shanna Marie mentioned which is an even bigger problem than the lack of world-building.  The only regular character who is getting decent (though still not great) writing with a semi-coherent enjoyable character journey in S4 is Emma.  Everyone else is either all over the place, ignored, steamrolled by a bus, used as a prop, or all of the above depending on which week it is.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I mean, look at the Snow Queen, who is arguably one of the better written half-season villains.  Why did they need her to be able to apparate out of nowhere, do telekinesis (eg. getting the mirror out of Regina's coat) and strangle people without touching them? (all examples from "Breaking Glass").  These powers have nothing to do with ice or Elsa's powers from the animated movie.

 

When the Snow Queen neutralized Elsa's powers, I cried "Overpowered!"

 

 

And then there's the human equation Shanna Marie mentioned which is an even bigger problem than the lack of world-building.  The only regular character who is getting decent (though still not great) writing with a semi-coherent enjoyable character journey in S4 is Emma.  Everyone else is either all over the place, ignored, steamrolled by a bus, used as a prop, or all of the above depending on which week it is.

 

That is a very loaded topic, and I agree that it's the show's biggest problem. Even if Regina's issues were still there, at least organic character actions would keep it from going nuts. If Emma or Snow snapped back at Regina, then it wouldn't really be that big of a deal. But, like magic, the writers bend characters to their will for their own unholy purposes. 

 

If Once could be described in one word, it would be "contrived".

Edited November 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

If Once could be described in one word, it would be "contrived".

 

That's what the "Finding the Author" plot feels like right now.  It's a collision of the worldbuilding problems and the character problems.  They could do a better job of Regina's redemption without the ridiculous finding-the-author distraction.

 

Even the "Magic Hat" subplot and Rumple feels a little abrupt to me.

 

Those two plus "Frozen" are the three major arcs in 3A, and only "Frozen" feels somewhat more organic to me, in terms of the backstory of what happened with Elsa and Anna, and the Snow Queen.  There were major meshing problems when the backstory tried to force-fit the existing characters like Charming or Belle, though it is working much better in the present-day scenes with Elsa and Emma.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Even the "Magic Hat" subplot and Rumple feels a little abrupt to me.

I'll feel cheated if Rumple's plan is simply to move to the Land Without Magic, plus keep his magic and wife. That seems a little vague for the Dark One. He's always been very specific about his goals. Find Bae, kill Zelena, that sort of thing.

 

 

Those two plus "Frozen" are the three major arcs in 3A, and only "Frozen" feels somewhat more organic to me, in terms of the backstory of what happened with Elsa and Anna, and the Snow Queen.  There were major meshing problems when the backstory tried to force-fit the existing characters like Charming or Belle, though it is working much better in the present-day scenes with Elsa and Emma.

Shoehorning in the characters felt really forced, I agree, simply because the stories they were involved had little relevance to who they are now. The Charming and Belle flashbacks were both fairly unnecessary to their character development, outside of Frozen. While I enjoy Frozen, it's still PLOT PLOT PLOT. I guess if anything it's a distraction from OQ, Snow/Emma and Rumpbelle. Maybe 4B will have more main cast spotlight, but I doubt it.

Edited November 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

When they don't know how to get out of the situation they put themselves into, they concoct a way that makes little to no sense. (Like Snow's heart splitting...)

I didn't actually mind the heart splitting because it was beautifully thematic and their love has literally produced magic. However, I would limit it to that one couple, ever, and there would be consequences. Like, they should start feeling the same emotions or be able to feel each other's emotions, which could create a little friction for a married couple that can't hide anything from each other. There would be no such thing as "I'm fine. Nothing's wrong." And just imagine what the Shattered Sight spell could do to them. Plus, they could have used that as foreshadowing before the memory spell was broken. Imagine what it would have been like when David couldn't hide his distrust of Snow's choice of midwife or his fear of parenthood and those two found themselves eerily even more connected than ever but didn't understand why. I think the heart split would still have been a surprise, but it would have been a "ooh, that explains it" moment, too. But that needs to be an ongoing thing that's always there rather than something entirely neglected that's only trotted out when needed for plot purposes (which is how I'm sure they'll handle any eventual fallout of the split heart).

 

As for the magic limitations, they did sort of do something right in that Rumple's dagger is both his source of power and his greatest vulnerability, but I think I'd have added difficulty points and made it so that he or whoever's controlling him had to have physical contact with the dagger for him to have magic power (with possibly a little leeway for residual power that could be used up). That way, in order to use his great power he has to expose his vulnerability by having the dagger out. No hiding it away in a vault while he runs around having unlimited power. Since Regina apparently has no inherent magic, I'd have made her more of a cookbook sorceress, someone who has to use spells and rituals rather than just waving her hand, or perhaps she needs to absorb magic, like she did with the book when the curse broke. Or maybe both. And then they could have had fun with the private vs. public aspects of her magic -- so, say, if she wanted to execute her enemy by throwing a fireball, she'd have to first hole up in her crypt or tower, huff some magic from the book, gather the right ingredients and do the right incantation. Then she could go out in public and wave her hand to throw a fireball. She might still be able to do a few minor spells as long as she still has some magic from the book, and she could whisper those so no one knows she isn't just flicking her wrist to make things happen, but she could go a long way maintaining the illusion that she's all-powerful while secretly she's having to do all this work. To really raise the ante, there might be some element of sacrifice involved, where a key ingredient for each major spell is her giving up something of value. Then the further she goes, she'd start running out of things that are valuable enough to work but not truly precious, until she got down to really having to decide if each spell is worth what she'd have to give up. And then somewhere along the way, she'd realize that the power in the book isn't infinite, so she has to really pick and choose where to use her magic. (And since they aren't going to use this, I think I've just created my next villain.)

 

Cora and Zelena should have had similar magic to Regina, since they're related. Cora's could have been modified somewhat by her time in Wonderland, and Zelena's might have been affected by growing up in Oz.

 

Since Emma's light magic is the product of love, I think I'd limit her by making it so that she can only do magic out of love. Her magic doesn't work if she's hurt or angry, but only when her heart is full of love. So if she were having a showdown with Rumple over his hat scheme, being mad at him for what he's doing wouldn't work. She'd have to act out of love for Hook to save him, and that would get really uncomfortable for her as a person who doesn't exactly wear her emotions on her sleeve, since the fact that her magic worked would be proof of love. She'd have to be emotionally vulnerable in order to do magic.

[KingOfHearts]

I agree the heart splitting was romantic, and Snowing's acting there was phenomenal, but it was what had to be compromised in order to get there that bothered me. They had to break the dead is dead rule and totally bypass the price of the curse to make it happen. It was just so contrived.

[MaiLuna]

I actually would have loved if Snow had just given her whole heart to Charming. I know they wouldn't want a heartless Snow for the rest of the show, but that way there would've been real, permanent consequences from the casting of the curse.

[Curio]

I actually would have loved if Snow had just given her whole heart to Charming. I know they wouldn't want a heartless Snow for the rest of the show, but that way there would've been real, permanent consequences from the casting of the curse.

 

It certainly would have explained Snow's behavior towards Emma this season, that's for sure.

[FabulousTater]

I'll be the lone wolf and say the thing -- I hate the heart sharing thing. I think it's stupid, contrived, and mawkish. We already knew that Snow and Charming are codependent on each other (see: Neverland Dreamshade contrivance). Whether heart sharing was in the vane of their thematic love and therefore "acceptable" was irrelevant to me. I didn't need heart sharing to become an actual thing as further proof that these two love each other. And what really sprinkles more painful idiocy on the whole scenario is that Snow risked the life of her child (which saving the baby was the reason they were doing this to begin with!) because she can't live without Charming. Basically, that whole thing didn't tell me how much Snow and Charming love each other, we already knew this, (it's been painfully obvious forever now. WE GET IT, show!) No, instead it showed how much they (or arguably just Snow) love each other to the exclusion of everyone else and to the point that they risk the well-being of everyone, including their own children. It was so dumb, that for me, the show finally made Snow just too dumb too live.

 

There. I said it.

Edited November 22, 2014 by FabulousTater

[YaddaYadda]

 

FabulousTater, your post times a million.  I don't even care that they share a heart, but they go from you'll see me in our chid (not children, child), to let's split the heart which has apparently never been done and could have just killed Snow and the baby she was so desperately trying to save by going back to her grown up child whom she apparently didn't even think of all that much.

 

Great parenting!

Edited November 22, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

I don't even care that they share a heart, but they go from you'll see me in our chid (not children, child), to let's split the heart which has apparently never been done and could have just killed Snow and the baby she was so desperately trying to save by going back to her grown up child whom she apparently didn't even think of all that much.

And that goes back to the terrible set-up to the situation (not to mention the terrible follow-through, since it turned out to be unnecessary and pointless). It would have been an entirely different story if they'd been doing the curse to get to Emma because they'd learned that Zelena had sent someone after her and they were afraid she'd be helpless with her memories gone. She needed them to warn her or protect her, and meanwhile her having light magic and being one more person to join the fight against Zelena would be a bonus. And that, in turn, would have made casting the curse look less useless when Regina managed to be the one to defeat Zelena anyway.

 

I still like the heart-splitting thing, and the fact that it's unprecedented even works because most of the time when someone's heart is ripped out, it's done for evil or selfish reasons, so it's not the sort of person who'd even consider sharing a heart. So there's some irony with Snow managing to find a way to cast the curse without actually killing anyone when Regina murdered her own father to cast her curse and it apparently didn't occur to her to share her own heart since she was so caught up in her own pain and what she wanted that nothing else and nobody else mattered. As for the "dead is dead" thing, I figure it's like getting someone revived within a certain amount of time -- more magical defibrillator than bringing someone back from the grave. It was inserting a new, living heart from a still-living person into a still-warm body rather than inserting the heart of a dead person into a long-dead body or rather than using a magic spell to revive the dead body, so it kind of fits into a loophole.

 

So in the alternate universe in which I'm on the writing staff and bring my sword to work to keep the idiots in line, I'd have allowed Snow and Charming to miss their daughter terribly while trying to keep a brave face in front of everyone else during the missing year, we'd have seen a lot more of them trying to battle Zelena and coming up with more ways to defeat her, then they'd have learned that she already had an agent in place to go after Emma, which would have spurred them in desperation to try the curse. Meanwhile in the present in Storybrooke, all along Snow and David would have been eerily linked emotionally, which might have led to a little friction, as well as perhaps some humor. Imagine a husband literally feeling the emotions of his wife in the last stage of pregnancy. It would be fun to play with the idea of a couple with so much love that they're linked in that way, but where that's not always such a great thing. If that created some friction, it would make the two of them a little less cloying.

[Rumsy4]

Add me in as another person who found the heart-split thing cheesy, ridiculous, and contrived. It was one of 3B's Jump the Shark moments.

However, from Snow's perspective, it was a desperate gamble. Zelena had just added a memory-wipe to the Dark Curse. So, they would have woken up in Storybrooke with no idea how they got there, Charming missing, Snow suddenly 9-months pregnant, and without the knowledge of Emma's current whereabouts. They would have no knowledge about Zelena and her plans.

They didn't know that Hook would find Emma, restore her memory, and bring her to Storybrooke. By the time a confused Snow and Regina had decided to locate Emma and persuaded her to come to Storybrooke, Snow could have given birth, and Zelena would have stolen the baby, no one being the wiser. So, the choice was between lose the baby now and die along with her husband, or lose the baby to Zelena in Storybrooke, and end up without David as well. Or the chance that splitting the heart would work, and David could be saved at least. Snow could have decided that even if she lost David and her second child, she would still have Emma. But that was a choice she would have been incapable of making in that moment, IMO.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Rumsy4

[stealinghome]

Eh, I enjoyed the heart-splitting. I agree that breaking the "dead is dead" rule irks me, but apparently Wonderland broke it first, so whatevs. Snowing was the perfect couple to get that bit of epic True Love-ness. The getting there was as poorly written as everything else on this show, but Goodwin and Dallas sold it, so.

That said, I too have been disappointed by the lack of follow-up or wacky consequences. Imagine the humor potential there!

[Camera One]

The extended amnesia also hindered showing consequences for the recasting of the Curse which could have provided the basis for some meaty storylines. They could have had Snow and Charming wake up at the beginning of 3B to realize that the Curse did not turn out as they had planned.  Maybe they had expected only them and any volunteers from the Kingdom to be transported, but everyone came over, and many people in the town are angry.  Emma could have been mad that they dragged her away from a happy life, and Snow and Charming would have to try to make it up to her.  If they had done this, they would have needed to reveal in "New York City Serenade" that Snow and Charming cast the Curse, maybe amidst chaos as Zelena and the Winged Monkeys wreaked havoc on the kingdom and this was their last choice after (as Shanna Marie suggested) finding out that Zelena had sent an operative to the Land Without Magic.  The first episode of 3B could show us the flashback of Snow and Charming right before the Curse was cast, and NYC could have shown Emma and Henry with various "suspects" around them who could be The Wicked Witch's operative.  This would require Emma to take a few episodes to get to Storybrooke.

 

Alternatively, as had suggested by others previously, they could have done Emma and Hook sneaking into Storybrooke, finding everyone with their Cursed personalities and Zelena as Mayor, and Emma would try to awaken people one by one while spying on Zelena to find out her grand plan.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Camera One

[Jean]

totally bypass the price of the curse to make it happen. It was just so contrived.

They already bypassed it for Woegina so at least in this one aspect of the show it was fair. Although that's probably due to the fact that they don't want to write anything for Snow and Charming more than they have to. The split heart was super cheesy. Any reason why Snow couldn't have just handed over her entire heart? People can still live and feel without it. It would've been a step less contrived.

I still think S1 was more kid friendly and marketed as such than S2 and S3. Henry was front and center and driving story, much to my chagrin. There were moral lessons embedded in every episode with their case of the week and the lessons weren't fucked up ones. There was also Hansel and Gretel and Grace. The violence was typical of any Disney film. The stories were way easier to follow and less convoluted. Except for Red, almost every case of the week ended up with the good guys triumphing and being happy. Can't get any more kid friendly than that.

Whereas S2 and S3 turned into a full blown soap opera. Now how many families sit down to watch Days of Our Lives? I don't know how many 7 year olds would appreciate Snow White the murderer. Or Peter Pan the old creepy man who kidnaps little boys. And we won't even touch the morality the show is now preaching. And can kids follow serialized dramas? Aren't most cartoons geared towards kids episodic? Even shows on the Disney channel that aren't animation, are more episodic or semi-procedural. Just because the writing got dumber and more fantastic doesn't mean its because A&E have made a concerted effort to reel in the kiddies.

By the way I don't recall Once hyping up the 12-17 or kids 11 and under demos, post S1 until Frozen hit town. I'm going to guess that they weren't being released or talked about because there was nothing worth discussing there. It makes sense to me that the falling 18-49 demos means that a portion of those were familes and collectively turned away from Once.

Frozen Once is even more kid friendly. A bit of the whimsy has crept back in which was missing for S2/S3. Even the villain of the arc feels more fairytale like and one geared towards the kiddies. There's been nothing overtly violent about Ingrid. She feels like a fantasy fairytale villain vs a real life case study of psychotic serial killers like the rest have been even if they're wielding fake magic and twirling their mustaches in melodramatic soap opera style.

[Camera One]

But what's with their obsession for combining adultery with kid-friendly stuff?  With 4A, I can see the kiddies becoming bored when the show shifts over to Regina and Robin, or Rumple.  

[Jean]

Well that's what the DVR ff function is for? And A&E would expire if they can't insert Woegina somewhere in an episode? I don't think it's any accident she's been kept as far away from the Frozen characters as possible and it's obviously not A&E's choice. Neither Anna nor Elsa have directly interacted with her. Elsa's been in 2 scenes with her and not one word was exchanged between them. I'm willing to bet Disney deemed her not kid friendly. And while Rumple isn't either, he's been presented as Anna's antagonist and even Ingrid's antagonist. They don't shy away from letting him be seen as the bad guy. Every Disney film needs a Scar.

[Shanna Marie]

I don't actually care to have seen the townspeople rioting over curse 2. I mean, if they weren't upset about curse 1, in which they were stuck in time for decades and had their personalities erased, beyond one minor pitchforks and torches episode, then why would they be that upset about round two, in which they still got to be themselves and had free will? There were even some mixed feelings about whether or not they wanted to go back to the Enchanted Forest. But I do think the story would have worked better if the whole kingdom had been at risk, if the place was under attack by flying monkeys, and they'd learned Emma was in danger, and this was a last-gasp move to save everyone.

 

Alternatively, as had suggested by others previously, they could have done Emma and Hook sneaking into Storybrooke, finding everyone with their Cursed personalities and Zelena as Mayor, and Emma would try to awaken people one by one while spying on Zelena to find out her grand plan.

That would have been brilliant because it would have brought back some of the best elements of season 1. If you're going to recycle plots, then why not recycle the ones that worked? There would have been a role reversal with Henry still under the memory spell and oblivious while Emma was the believer, and Hook being himself with no cursed persona and no Storybrooke memory download having to try to act 21st century "normal" around the Storybrooke residents who are unaware of their fairy tale origins would have been highly amusing. Then the True Love's Kiss to break the curse could have been between Emma and one of her parents.

 

Okay, who has a newborn they're willing to lend us, some courage, a brain and a resilient heart so we can go back in time and fix this?

[stealinghome]

And can kids follow serialized dramas? Aren't most cartoons geared towards kids episodic? Even shows on the Disney channel that aren't animation, are more episodic or semi-procedural. Just because the writing got dumber and more fantastic doesn't mean its because A&E have made a concerted effort to reel in the kiddies.

I get what you're saying, and I agree that S1 was written more procedural-style (the "case" of the week was each week's happy ending), but I actually feel like the show is oddly more episodic now than it was in S1, because there's no consequences to anything and no real overarching narrative. It's constantly like "oh, new adventure, we're going to re-set everything all the time. Logic and continuity? Bahahaha." S1, admittedly with a few hiccups, was like a runaway train--it had a definite story and picked up narrative momentum. Now it's more like the train is derailed and falling spectacularly end over end on a snowy hillside. My parents keep griping that after S1, Once turned into a Saturday morning cartoon, and I think that's an apt comparison. It's just so superficial now--the episodes have like 3 basic plots that they keep recycling, they don't let characters or relationships grow or change.... It's all about getting us to the next Good Guys vs Villains showdown.

 

Besides, I think this show has actually always been hard to follow for the average viewer. I heard "I don't get what's happening" sooooo much during Season 1 because people just didn't understand that the fairybacks were flashbacks. My sister and parents even saw the pilot, and were still confused for a while by the show's central conceit.

 

By the way I don't recall Once hyping up the 12-17 or kids 11 and under demos, post S1 until Frozen hit town. I'm going to guess that they weren't being released or talked about because there was nothing worth discussing there. It makes sense to me that the falling 18-49 demos means that a portion of those were familes and collectively turned away from Once.

They've never talked about the demos, but people involved with the show--from ABC brass to A&E to the actors--always, always talk about the fact that they love that this is a show that families watch together. That was like the most-mentioned thing in interviews after S1 and S2 both. Whether or not the demo numbers reflect that, I definitely think that's how the network/the showrunners see the show: as a show families, by extension kids, watch.

[retrograde]

I rolled my eyes a bit at the heart-sharing at the time, but I'd like it more if it actually has some consequences for them. Bad, good, I don't even care, but there should be some side-effects, surely.

 

A&E have vaguely said it will come up again, but I'm not holding my breath

[Faemonic]

The extended amnesia also hindered showing consequences for the recasting of the Curse which could have provided the basis for some meaty storylines. They could have had Snow and Charming wake up at the beginning of 3B to realize that the Curse did not turn out as they had planned. Maybe they had expected only them and any volunteers from the Kingdom to be transported, but everyone came over, and many people in the town are angry. Emma could have been mad that they dragged her away from a happy life, and Snow and Charming would have to try to make it up to her. If they had done this, they would have needed to reveal in "New York City Serenade" that Snow and Charming cast the Curse, maybe amidst chaos as Zelena and the Winged Monkeys wreaked havoc on the kingdom and this was their last choice after (as Shanna Marie suggested) finding out that Zelena had sent an operative to the Land Without Magic. The first episode of 3B could show us the flashback of Snow and Charming right before the Curse was cast, and NYC could have shown Emma and Henry with various "suspects" around them who could be The Wicked Witch's operative. This would require Emma to take a few episodes to get to Storybrooke.

Alternatively, as had suggested by others previously, they could have done Emma and Hook sneaking into Storybrooke, finding everyone with their Cursed personalities and Zelena as Mayor, and Emma would try to awaken people one by one while spying on Zelena to find out her grand plan.

If you're going to recycle plots, then why not recycle the ones that worked? There would have been a role reversal with Henry still under the memory spell and oblivious while Emma was the believer, and Hook being himself with no cursed persona and no Storybrooke memory download having to try to act 21st century "normal" around the Storybrooke residents who are unaware of their fairy tale origins would have been highly amusing. Then the True Love's Kiss to break the curse could have been between Emma and one of her parents.

Okay, who has a newborn they're willing to lend us, some courage, a brain and a resilient heart so we can go back in time and fix this?

This is what I love about fanfiction. Something like this can happen.

Most TV series with logic flaws and massively missed opportunities, I try to remember that the showrunners have to meet deadlines and maybe don't have the freedom to crowdsource great ideas like these.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Faemonic

[KingOfHearts]

I agree with stealinghome's assessment that the show has become episodic. 4A has felt like one long episode, only focusing on one story. Don't get me wrong, I love Frozen, but I do miss the focus on the main cast. The ending to the arc is pretty predictable. This show rarely changes its status quo for very long.

(I've been watching Lost lately, where twists most always have payoff and consequences. Frankly it's hard to believe A&E wrote for that show.)

I agree with retrograde about the heart splitting. I want Curse 2 to have a price. If that were the case, I'd tolerate it.

Edited November 24, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[SilverShadow]

And can kids follow serialized dramas? Aren't most cartoons geared towards kids episodic? Even shows on the Disney channel that aren't animation, are more episodic or semi-procedural. Just because the writing got dumber and more fantastic doesn't mean its because A&E have made a concerted effort to reel in the kiddies.

 

 

Kids can absolutely follow serialized stories. I was 8 or 9 during the time Sailor Moon and Dragonball Z were airing on Cartoon Network, when their popularity exploded. One of the things I was drawn to was the fact that there were longer ongoing storylines with bigger stakes. 9 year-old me would have eaten Once up with a spoon. 

 

I don't think younger members of the audience influence the tone overly much. It was always an 8/7 central network show featuring fairytale/Disney characters. It was never going to be Game of Thrones. Robin and Regina are still banging even though his wife is on ice and Rumple/"The Beast" tried to kill/capture Snow White's daughter so Disney seems to mostly still be letting them do whatever when it doesn't involve Frozen.

Edited November 23, 2014 by SilverShadow

[Jean]

 

from ABC brass to A&E to the actors--always, always talk about the fact that they love that this is a show that families watch together.

Well I think that's where the network differs from A&E. The network markets it as such cause it comes with Disney fairytales and their bread and butter are animated films for kids. I don't care what A&E say after the gems they've spouted over the years. They're about as reliable as corrupt Jersey politicians from an era past. I don't think they're writing a show for families or kids nor do they want to. Or its influencing their writing in any way. If they were writing a show targeting kids I don't think killing Charming off in the opening scene would've been their original plan that required the network to nix it. They're writing an adult drama.

 

What makes this show so kid friendly? The Disney stamp. That's the only thing and it's a fake one.  Let's take away the fact that some of the characters are named Snow White, Charming, and Belle and call them Mary, David and Betty. Would we still think it's a family show? This show would be on par with Revenge or Desperate Housewives or Greys. Not in terms of quality but in terms of the stories, mostly soap opera type of stories and the tone in the same melodramatic vein. Those shows aren't called family oriented or kid friendly by any stretch of the imagination. Once is a lot closer to those shows than say Hannah Montana. A&E is just riding on the fact that its based on fairytales, the Disney kid-ified versions, just so they can make that claim and reach that audience. Immature, recycled and stupid stories does not equal kid friendly.

 

 

superficial now--the episodes have like 3 basic plots that they keep recycling, they don't let characters or relationships grow or change.... It's all about getting us to the next Good Guys vs Villains showdown.

Ok I agree with that, but those qualities don't define a kid/family oriented show. It's just a crappy show.

 

They've completely lost the whimsical and fairytale feeling. Seeing that new Cinderella trailer, which wasn't all that great either, but the tone was right up Disney's alley. Now that's a trailer that I went, oh that'll be good for kids and typical Disney. Nothing on Once even comes close to that. The mood and tone on this show is all wrong for the Disney kid crowd. Losing Snow White as the show's protagonist and then screwing up her character completely changed the tone of the show. S3 finale (except for the last 5 minutes) got it back and it's no accident they had to dust off the script for Snow Falls to make it happen. Now the only story you can find that kid friendly quality in, is Frozen, controlled by Disney. What about that says A&E is writing for the 10 and under crowd?

 

I don't know. It might just be me but if I had kids, I wouldn't want them to come away with, "telling the truth is evil!" Adultery is good cause you need to do whatever you want to make you happy. Killing is ok if you can cry prettily. If you have a problem ripping out their hearts is an acceptable solution.

[KingOfHearts]

Graham/Regina was incredibly raunchy. Even I found it gross and extremely disturbing. That definitely wasn't for a "kids" show. I thought the wraith in 2x01 was a little scary for kids too. Since then though, the show has watered down sex and violence.

It's not that I want more un-family-friendly content thrown in just because, but I feel like the show looks at everything with rose-colored glasses now. It's sugarcoated. A lot of the realism the fantasy is supposed to clash with falls away.

[Curio]

They've completely lost the whimsical and fairytale feeling.

 

The show really has lost a lot of its "magical charm" since Season 1/2, and I think part of the issue is because Stoyrbrooke has gotten pretty stale and boring. I know the original concept of Once was to show the juxtaposition of having these fairy tale characters living in the real world, but now that they've officially called Storybrooke home, these characters don't feel like fairy tale characters anymore - I feel like I'm just watching normal people in a normal Maine town who happen to share the same names with some fairy tale characters. The Season 3 two-part finale was such a breath of fresh air because not only did it bring back some of the fantasy/fairy tale elements that have been sorely lacking, it also threw our current-timeline characters into an environment that made them fish out of water.

 

I feel like this show could be 100% more adventurous and entertaining if it allowed our Storybrooke characters to venture back to the enchanted lands more often, but the writers seem afraid to do that ever since the Neverland arc. I know we still get to see some of the Enchanted Forest via flashbacks, but the flashbacks just don't hold the same weight as they used to. The storylines that are driving the story take place in the present timeline, not the past, so it would be nice to shake things up and have another half season arc (or full!) in another realm. Otherwise, I'm afraid this show is going to fall into a rut of: villain comes to Storybrooke, good guys defeat villain at the last second, everyone celebrates at Granny's, lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Maybe part of the reason the writers don't want the characters to realm hop anymore is because they want to make it seem like it's a really difficult task to do, but let's be real...the writers have made a mockery of realm hopping by creating so many different and random methods. Apparently, you can grow magic beans, or wear magical slippers, or ride a shadow, or walk through a freaking door. I totally wouldn't mind some retcon where a bunch of magical beans show up out of no where, which would allow the Storybrooke residents to travel anywhere they wanted until the end of the series.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Curio

[retrograde]

I'm surprised more of the characters don't at least want to continue some of their old traditions in Storybrooke. Throw a ball, practice swordfighting, that sort of thing. I'm also curious whether the syllabus at Storybrooke Elementary has changed since the curse broke. Surely people still want their kids to learn where they came from and the history of all the monarchs and that sort of thing?

[Camera One]

Who knows.  That's part of the worldbuilding problem.  I mean, why did the Baby Naming ceremony happen at such a small venue as Granny's Diner?  Shouldn't it have occurred in City Hall?  After all, I'm assuming Snow and Charming made the baby announcement on the castle balcony above thousands looking up at them from below.  As Curio said, sometimes, it's like these people in Maine just have the same names as the fairytale characters.  Grumpy and Granny sometimes provides a bit of the feudal mindset, but other than that, it's not much.  I mean, where are all of Snow and Charming's palace guards?  They don't feel the loyalty and the fealty to serve their beloved monarchs?  What the hell are the fairies doing up at the Convent?  They've been totally MIA since the Snow Queen arrived.  

 

Shouldn't everyone being coming up with some sort of contingency plan in case the Snow Queen enacted the Shattered Sight Curse?  Or are they doing nothing because nothing can be done?  

Edited November 24, 2014 by Camera One

[retrograde]

Shouldn't everyone being coming up with some sort of contingency plan in case the Snow Queen enacted the Shattered Sight Curse?  Or are they doing nothing because nothing can be done?  

Well no one seems to tell the regular townsfolk anything anyway. They must be in a perpetual state of confusion as to what is going on around them. Hey, remember when Snow became mayor and was going to be all inclusive with the unwashed masses? Yeah, me neither.

[Camera One]

Well, even to protect themselves for that matter.  No one has made any effort to find out what can be done to protect themselves since the Snow Queen could enact the Shattered Sight Curse at any moment..  Unless Belle is doing research while babysitting?  I mean, even Regina.  She knows she could be hit with the Shattered Mirror Curse too, doesn't she?  Does it matter what should happen with Robin if they could be turning on each other tomorrow due the glass shards?  That's why I was wondering if Rumple was immune, since he's all about the Hat and the Blackmail with no concern about the impending Curse.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Camera One

[Curio]

Hey, remember when Snow became mayor and was going to be all inclusive with the unwashed masses? Yeah, me neither.

Well, I guess in Snow's defense, she did hold that meeting where she was going to talk about several different Storybrooke matters, but everyone just wanted to jump straight to the ice wall bullet point.

[retrograde]

Well, given the same circumstances, I think I'd have liked to hear about the ice wall up-front, too! And then they did a rubbish job of explaining. Instead of explaining who Elsa is and why she is not dangerous, they were just like, "Oh Elsa? Yeah, she's cool. Don't worry about it." 

[KAOS Agent]

Well to be fair, the poor leadership is in line with true Snowing tradition. Everyone should expect it by now. I'm still wondering if they ever set up that emergency phone tree/text system for the town. It would be helpful for when Snow decides to throw everyone under the bus on the off chance they can save Regina. Or when Pan's curse needs to be undone so everyone should expect to go back to the Enchanted Forest. They couldn't really prepare for that one but I'd totally have eaten a big dinner and taken a long hot shower. Or now when a shattered mirror is going to cause you to attack your loved ones. 

Edited November 24, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Faemonic]

 

One would also think that if the ice wall is still up that there would be issues concerning shortages of food, fuel, or things like that. I don't want the show to be Under the Dome, but one would assume that being totally cut off would present some challenges.

Oh, but that was handwaved back in the first season when only Henry, Emma, and August could come into town--and nobody could leave. Greg/Owen was the herald of some great big bad thing, and the Darling Hipster Hipster Darlings dodged a dome there.

Basically, there were never deliveries of anything from outside with the truckers or shipment handlers just being memory-fogged or reasoning-fogged. Apparently Storybrooke achieved the isolationism that North Korea can only dream of.

 

We saw a handful of people running from the snow monster and a handful at the fireside chat, but otherwise what has been going on with the towns folk? Do they just see Emma and crew running and think, "I should probably look into that at some point?"

 

(Sorry to keep dragging in outside references, but:)

"Bloody Torchwood!"

(Okay, not that sorry.)

[Shanna Marie]

The show really has lost a lot of its "magical charm" since Season 1/2, and I think part of the issue is because Stoyrbrooke has gotten pretty stale and boring. I know the original concept of Once was to show the juxtaposition of having these fairy tale characters living in the real world, but now that they've officially called Storybrooke home, these characters don't feel like fairy tale characters anymore - I feel like I'm just watching normal people in a normal Maine town who happen to share the same names with some fairy tale characters.

Strangely, they seemed more like storybook characters when they didn't know their true identities, when they thought they were just people in a normal Maine town. That's why it's such a pity that they don't seem at all interested in building or exploring their world, because an enclave of fairy tale people living in modern America could be tons of fun, with them picking and choosing what things they want to embrace from their new world and they want to keep from their old world.

 

I don't know that I'd have ever called this a children's show, but I do think that season one was good "watch with the whole family" material because there was plenty to appeal to both kids and adults. For kids, there was the fairy tale stuff, and Henry was a central figure. You could almost look at that season as a story about a child trying to reunite his family, and a lot about his story is similar to things you see in middle-grade fantasy books, with the one kid who's a bit of an outsider who sees things other people don't notice and tries to set things right with minimal adult support because they aren't willing or able to see the things he does. It reminds me a bit of the opening chapters of the first Harry Potter book. There was some violence, but no more really than you see on your average episode of Doctor Who, and the sex was mostly implied or offscreen (to the point that the writers tried to claim that there was no proof that Regina raped Graham because we didn't see what they were actually doing in bed). For adults, there were the twists on the familiar tales and fleshing out of the familiar characters in some unexpected ways, plus a bit of soap opera drama and some action and suspense. While a little more grey was allowed in the picture, the morality still made enough sense that you wouldn't have to twist yourself into knots explaining things to your kids. The bad guys might have reasons for being bad, but they were still making bad choices, and those bad choices had consequences. The good guys prevailed by being good and standing up for what was right.

 

But I don't think I'd let kids watch much after the curse broke, at least not after the midpoint of season two because then it all went straight to hell. I think the violence became less realistic and more cartoony, but there was more of it and it got more disturbing (way too much heart ripping). The moral relativism kicked in, so it was no longer really about shades of grey but rather the idea that not being perfect was the same as being evil -- if the good guys made one bad move, they were just as bad as the evil people and no longer allowed to judge the evil people. Evil deeds were swept under the rug and forgotten. There were no consequences. And all that made it less relatable -- how do you relate to someone who isn't bothered by seeing people hurt or murdered, who isn't angry about having been emotionally tortured? Emma going after the apple tree with a chainsaw was awesome. Would that Emma be begging to be Regina's friend right after seeing Regina execute (or attempt to do so) her mother? That made the good guys less interesting, and if you're not into bad guys crying because their lives aren't perfect, the show becomes less interesting. There are glimpses in there of them getting something right -- I blame the writing elves -- enough so to keep me watching (but I had some close calls in late season 2), but it really has become a different show.

[Rumsy4]

One would also think that if the ice wall is still up that there would be issues concerning shortages of food, fuel, or things like that. I don't want the show to be Under the Dome, but one would assume that being totally cut off would present some challenges.

 

Who know how Storybrooke ever gets stocked with anything? What I was most concerned with was the waste-treatment plants. Where is all that sewage being dumped now that there's a frozen wall all around the town? I presume the wall extends into the ocean, otherwise what's the point? Any pipes that are supposed to lead into the ocean would have been frozen solid, blocking the outlet. Is there a Big Stink in town?

[KingOfHearts]

 

 I totally wouldn't mind some retcon where a bunch of magical beans show up out of no where, which would allow the Storybrooke residents to travel anywhere they wanted until the end of the series.

 

Yes, please. Knock out the ice wall and allow them to go to the Land Without Magic while you're at it. I'd like to watch Snowing trying to keep everyone under the same roof. The townsfolk could, for instance, split into different factions - the people who want to go back to their homelands, the folks who want to stay in Storybrooke, and the ones who want to leave for the real world. Each group would have their own leader. I don't see this happening though because Once is too linear for that big of a plot.

 

The Missing Year was a missed opportunity to deal with everyone readjusting to their old lives. That was almost completely passed over, and all the citizens returned to their normal pre-curse lives. (Except Regina.) This show just doesn't like dealing with major dilemmas unless it involves a Big Bad.

Edited November 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Well, now we know that DQ only erected her Ice Wall in the ocean before her Spell hit. So, at any given time, the people of Storybrooke could have escaped to the outside world by ships and boats before DQ caught on. These people really are dumber than a box of hair!

[HoodlumSheep]

Well, now we know that DQ only erected her Ice Wall in the ocean before her Spell hit. So, at any given time, the people of Storybrooke could have escaped to the outside world by ships and boats before DQ caught on. These people really are dumber than a box of hair!

I wonder if they had tried to escape by sea earlier, if the ice wall would have popped up like when it reacted to David trying to climb it.

I guess we'll never know.

I'm still torn whether I'd rank 4a above or below (or tied) with 3a, at least according to my own personal preferences.

Despite some contrivances and flaws, Once is picking up again sort of like it did at the end of 2b, after dragging in the middle (for me it was eps 5 and 6 that kind of dragged it down). Snow White continues to be all over the place, I like when David gets more screen time. The DQ is fantastic, I've enjoyed Frozen Once characters despite not liking the movie, even though they migt be taking up just a tad too much of the main character's time. I love Rumple when he's full blown evil, even though he's beginning to flip flop on being good or evil as much as Regina. I'm enjoying watching him make selfish mistakes though. You can literally see the cracks forming in his plan due to his desperateness/selfishness. CS has a good slow burn going for it. Emma is finally getting focus. Love the Frozen Swan friendship. This season seems to be a better mix of plot and character moments compared to 3b, even though it might not be the kind of development some wanted. A lot of characters seemed to have lost some common sense this season too, though.

3a had Pan (and Felix) and was more centered on the characters, but I felt it focused a little too much on the wrong characters when dealing with Neverland. I liked the dark and twisty nature of neverland. I liked Regina being an ally, but not being considered really part of the family yet. Her redemption was more on track. 3a had an awesome finale. Henry...lost some IQ points. Ariel. Tinkerbell. Finally saw the kind-of-but-not-really first signs of getting some more Emma focus, that wouldn't decide to show itself again until the end of 3b.

I didn't seem to list many good 3a qualities, did I? Even though I enjoyed 3a for the most part.

I'm torn, but kind of leaning towards ranking 4a higher than 3a. Let's see how the Shattered Sight spell fares.